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TAYLOR SWIFT CREEPY STALKER WON'T STOP · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease. Everybody loves her. She's beautiful,
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Speaker 1: she's incredibly talented, she's amazing, she's a hard worker, she's
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Speaker 1: a wonderful daughter, a wonderful friend. But her life is
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Speaker 1: in danger. Does anybody not know the name Taylor Swift?
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Speaker 1: You don't have to be a Swiftie. You don't have
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Speaker 1: to adore her like many of us do to understand
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Speaker 1: that this woman has broken all barriers. She is amazing,
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Speaker 1: So why can't we put her accur behind bars and
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Speaker 1: keep him there. This guy has been visiting Tylor Swift's
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Speaker 1: home a shocking thirty times in the last two months.
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Speaker 1: There are photos of him at the window, peering in
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Speaker 1: scoldking around her home, standing outside with flowers. He has
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Speaker 1: a criminal history. He won't go away. As a matter
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Speaker 1: of fact, he just got arrested for stalking her and
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Speaker 1: within a couple of hours was back at her place
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Speaker 1: stalking her. What will they not do anything until she's
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Speaker 1: physically attacked, maimed or worse? What do you think this
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Speaker 1: guy has on his mind? Nothing good? I can tell
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Speaker 1: you that much. I mean, see Grace, this is Crime Stories.
2:00
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories.
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Speaker 1: And on serious exem one eleven. And it's not just
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Speaker 1: about Taylor Swift. Do you know how many domestic homicides
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Speaker 1: I have prosecuted, much less the number of them I
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Speaker 1: have investigated? How many calls I took on the Battered
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Speaker 1: Women's hotline at night for nearly ten years. I can't
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Speaker 1: even count them all? What will authorities just not be
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Speaker 1: happy until she's dead and then everybody will go, oh wow,
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Speaker 1: we should have done something about it. This is so awful,
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Speaker 1: but it does that where this have to end again?
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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. First of all, take
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Speaker 1: a listen to our friend Sidney Sumner.
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Speaker 2: David Crowe is fixated on Taylor Swift. He has been
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Speaker 2: arrested three times in five days at our near Swift,
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Speaker 2: New York apartment. This latest arrest comes just two hours
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Speaker 2: after he was in court over his last arrest for
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Speaker 2: stalking her home. Law enforcement sounding the alarm, telling TMZ
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Speaker 2: that Crow is quote aware of what he's doing and
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Speaker 2: he's articulate. He is fixated on her and cannot keep
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Speaker 2: away from where she lives. We are doing all we
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Speaker 2: can to protect her.
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Speaker 1: Okay, this woman, due to her job, really can't disappear.
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Speaker 1: This guy knows where she is. He knows where she lives.
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Speaker 1: The only way to protect her is to put him
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Speaker 1: behind bars and leave him there, But instead he keeps
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Speaker 1: getting out of the revolving door that they call the
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Speaker 1: local jail to go right back to her place like
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Speaker 1: a homing pigeon, to wait for her to do what
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Speaker 1: when she shows up? Doctor Angela Arnold joining me renown
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Speaker 1: psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction at Angela Arnold MD
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Speaker 1: dot com. Doctor Angie. What does that mean when someone
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Speaker 1: is quote fixated on another?
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Speaker 3: Nancy? Often most times when people become fixated or someone
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Speaker 3: else they've got in their mind, there are several different
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Speaker 3: reasons for them to become fixated. At the bottom of
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Speaker 3: it all is a sense of control, okay, and someone
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Speaker 3: can become fixated with someone in order to because they
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Speaker 3: feel rejected by that person. They are seeking intimacy from
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Speaker 3: that person, they're resentful of a breakup in a relationship,
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Speaker 3: and last but not least, because they're a predator, because
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Speaker 3: they're seeking power and control over that person.
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Speaker 1: This is not the first time a celebrity has been stalked,
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Speaker 1: and just think about it. If a celebrity like Taylor
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Speaker 1: Swift can't stop a stalker, what about the rest of
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Speaker 1: us regular people, mere mortals? What chance do we have
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Speaker 1: if Taylor Swift can't stop her stalker? Well, what about Madonna?
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Speaker 1: She and stop one of her many many stalkers. Either
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Speaker 1: take a listen to Dave matt Crime Online.
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Speaker 4: Thirteen Robert Dewey Hoskins was dangerous, highly psychotic. According to police,
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Speaker 4: he had become fascinated with Madonna and told her assistant
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Speaker 4: that he would either marry Madonna or slash her throat
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Speaker 4: from ear to ear. In nineteen ninety five, Hoskins climbed
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Speaker 4: the fence and Madonna's twenty five thousand square foot Hollywood
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Speaker 4: Hills estate and was shot by her security guards. Madonna
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Speaker 4: wasn't home at the time, but was frightened. Nonetheless, Hoskins
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Speaker 4: was convicted of threatening to kill Madonna and was sentenced
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Speaker 4: to ten years in prison.
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Speaker 1: Isn't it true, doctor Angela Arnold, that the imagined relationship
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Speaker 1: that a stalker has with his target, his love object
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Speaker 1: victim can evaporate and turn angry and ugly just as
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Speaker 1: quickly as they believe they fell in love.
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Speaker 3: Yes, and Nancy. Therein lies the danger Okay, so right now,
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Speaker 3: he's just digging through dumpster trying to gather something that
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Speaker 3: might smell like her or look like her, but it
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Speaker 3: can quickly devolve into something that becomes extremely dangerous for
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Speaker 3: the person who is being stalkeed.
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Speaker 1: He's not just digging around trying to get Taylor Swift mementos.
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Speaker 1: He's looking into her windows. He's trying to break in.
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Speaker 1: He's standing around trying to give her flowers. He won't
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Speaker 1: go away. He's gone to jail multiple times. The minute
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Speaker 1: he gets out, he goes straight back to her place. Okay,
6:31
Speaker 1: what about TTOK Sensation, Ava Missouri? Take a listen to
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Speaker 1: Ava herself and Our Cut twenty nine and Dave matt
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Speaker 1: In thirty.
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Speaker 5: Hey guys, I don't really know how to start this,
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Speaker 5: so we're just going to go along with this one.
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Speaker 5: This is my first blog or YouTube video. Give me
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Speaker 5: like all ideas in the commons. Yeah, I'm kind of
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Speaker 5: taking along with the journey.
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Speaker 4: In early two thousand, Eva notices a follower trying to
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Speaker 4: get her attention, commenting on her TikTok videos and reaching
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Speaker 4: out to her through social media apps, asking for photos,
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Speaker 4: even paying kids she thought were friends for information about her,
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Speaker 4: so Ava reaches out and tells him to stop going
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Speaker 4: through other people. If he wants pictures, he can buy
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Speaker 4: them directly from her. She didn't realize she just connected
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Speaker 4: with a craze stalker who ended up coming to her house,
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Speaker 4: blew open the front door with a shotgun, and Ava's dad,
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Speaker 4: who is a retired police officer, ended up having to
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Speaker 4: shoot the man dead.
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Speaker 1: Just thinking about what this family goes through. A seeming
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Speaker 1: admirer who keeps showing up finally breaks in to get
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Speaker 1: to her and her dad has to shoot him dead.
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Speaker 1: That's not, of course, the first fatality linked to a
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Speaker 1: celebrity stalker. The first time this phenomena rushed to the
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Speaker 1: forefront was with the star of My Sister Sam Rebecca Schaeffer. Listen.
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Speaker 4: Rebecca Schaeffer was on his rocket ship to start him.
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Speaker 4: In the eighties, she was on a hit TV show
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Speaker 4: called My Sister Sam. She was getting auditions for big
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Speaker 4: Hollywood movies, but she was still down to earth enough
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Speaker 4: that she answered her own fan mail. Robert Bardow was
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Speaker 4: a mentally ill young man from Arizona who became obsessed
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Speaker 4: with Shaeffer. He becomes enraged when he sees her acting
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Speaker 4: in a love scene, so with laser focus he finds
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Speaker 4: her home address and shows up at her door. Shaffer
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Speaker 4: is expecting a script for Godfather III, the audition she's
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Speaker 4: been dreaming about. Instead of the script, it's Robert Bardow.
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Speaker 4: He got her address through the DMV and instead of
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Speaker 4: getting a dreamscript Mentali Old Bardo shoots the starlet dead.
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Speaker 1: Joining me. In addition to Nicole parton Crime Online dot
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Speaker 1: commodist Get Reporter, and as you heard earlier, doctor Angela Arnold,
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Speaker 1: Troy Slayton is joining US high profile defense attorney out
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Speaker 1: of la At Slayton lawyers jump in, Troy Slayton, I
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Speaker 1: can't wait to hear what you're about to say.
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Speaker 6: Well, Nancy, Unfortunately, New York has a very slow progressive
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Speaker 6: system with regard to stalking and harassment, so the law
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Speaker 6: is inadequate in New York to protect celebrities like Taylor
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Speaker 6: Swift from crazed fans or people who become obsessed with her.
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Speaker 6: So when he's first arrested for just being around outside
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Speaker 6: of her place, of course, he gets led out because
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Speaker 6: that crime, fourth degree stalking, doesn't even allow for bail,
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Speaker 6: so he needs to be arrested again and again, and
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Speaker 6: it wasn't until he violated an order of protection that
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Speaker 6: means an order from the court from the judge to
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Speaker 6: stay away from the location that he was arrested for contempt.
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Speaker 6: And judges don't like it when you violate their orders.
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Speaker 1: I don't even know what you're saying. Oh the blah
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Speaker 1: blah blah blah. The law says this, and the law
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Speaker 1: says that. Will it take another incident like this? Take
10:00
Speaker 1: a listen to our cut ten.
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Speaker 4: John Lennon became a legend as part of the Beatles,
10:04
Speaker 4: but a five year hiatus from recording any music left
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Speaker 4: him without a record contract in the fall of nineteen
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Speaker 4: eighty when he recorded his comeback album, Double Fantasy. The
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Speaker 4: album was warmly received by fans and critics alike, but
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Speaker 4: the return of the legend was short lived. On December eighth,
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Speaker 4: nineteen eighty, Beatle fan Mark David Chapman was standing outside
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Speaker 4: the Dakota Hotel on the Upper West Side as John
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Speaker 4: Lennon returned home from the recording studio with Yoko Ono.
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Speaker 4: Without warning, Mark David Chapman opened fired, sending five holow
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Speaker 4: point bullets into the back of John Lennon ending his life.
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Speaker 1: Paul zeit with me, a former police commander specializing in
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Speaker 1: domestic violence and the stalking unit, the author of Listen
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Speaker 1: to this stop him from killing them? Paul Zyke, thank
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Speaker 1: you for being with us. And just like you heard,
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Speaker 1: and yes, he's a high profile defense attorney. Yes he's
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Speaker 1: a veteran trial lawyer. He referred to the perpetrator against
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Speaker 1: Taylor Swift just standing around. Well, that is what Chapman
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Speaker 1: was doing. He was just standing around until he pulled
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Speaker 1: a gun and then pulled a trigger.
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Speaker 7: Well, the unfortunate reality is that law enforcements really not
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Speaker 7: prepared nationally. I when I go around and teach on
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Speaker 7: my book, I find this. I find that it's viewed
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Speaker 7: as intense harassment. The reality is that the vast majority
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Speaker 7: of females that are murdered are killed by the man
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Speaker 7: who's stalking them. And that alone requires twenty four hour surveillance.
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Speaker 7: Law enforcement's got to be on this guy twenty four
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Speaker 7: to seven and if the violation and restraining order is
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Speaker 7: the best thing they can do, every time they see
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Speaker 7: him there, they arrest him repeatedly until he's kept that's it.
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Speaker 1: You know, I've represented so many stalking victims, and in
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Speaker 1: the majority of them there is physical violence. Ultimately, there
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Speaker 1: is physical violence. Joining me right now, a real exce
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Speaker 1: part in this field. Renee Williams, Executive Director, National Center
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Speaker 1: for Victims of Crime, Renee, thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 8: Wighan Well, I think that you said it best when
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Speaker 8: you are addressing the laws. Look, you can put every
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Speaker 8: law in place, and saying that New York is lacking
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Speaker 8: is just patently falls across the state. We're lacking in
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Speaker 8: laws for stockings. But it's not just putting it into laws.
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Speaker 8: It is the enforcement of those laws, and it is
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Speaker 8: the action of protecting the victims. Taylor Swift can't seem
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Speaker 8: to be protected from this man. Can you imagine what
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Speaker 8: it is like for an everyday person who does not
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Speaker 8: have her resources and the attention that is constantly on
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Speaker 8: her to protect her. The everyday person that doesn't have
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Speaker 8: those things, who's being stocked and when they go to
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Speaker 8: the police, they're turned away.
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Speaker 6: So what do they do?
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Speaker 1: What do they do? Just put up with it, put
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Speaker 1: up with fear every single day. Afraid to get out
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Speaker 1: of your car, afraid to walk in your or what
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Speaker 1: do they do? Afraid you're gonna look out and see
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Speaker 1: this guy, David Crow, thirty three years all staring at
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Speaker 1: you through the window.
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Speaker 8: That's exactly right. I have a very good friend who
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Speaker 8: was stalked in the state of Pennsylvania. And it wasn't
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Speaker 8: by and the man wasn't doing anything that would be
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Speaker 8: illegal necessarily, but he was clearly stalking her. And she
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Speaker 8: had to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars. And she's
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Speaker 8: an attorney, and she's a very good attorney, and she
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Speaker 8: was still at her wits end as well. She went
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Speaker 8: to the police. There was nothing they could do because
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Speaker 8: there weren't laws to back them up, and they didn't
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Speaker 8: have the expertise.
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Speaker 1: This is reminding me not only of all the women,
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Speaker 1: and yes, it's usually women that are the victims that
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Speaker 1: are stalked, just relentlessly, typically ending in violence. You may
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Speaker 1: know this woman I spoke with, You may know her
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Speaker 1: from being on TV. She's a TV star. She's started
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Speaker 1: all my children. But with all of her beauty and
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Speaker 1: all of her accomplishments, she was not, I mean to
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Speaker 1: a stalker. Eva LaRue.
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Speaker 9: This whole thing started in two thousand and seven when
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Speaker 9: I got the very first letter but you're absolutely right,
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Speaker 9: Like the only job that we have as parents is
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Speaker 9: to keep our children safe. And when that is taken
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Speaker 9: away from you by all counts and every day, you
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Speaker 9: don't know if you can keep your only child, say
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Speaker 9: you feel like you've completely, you completely, completely failed. It's
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Speaker 9: it's one thing when the stalking threats are coming to
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Speaker 9: you that has its own terroristic fear that comes with it,
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Speaker 9: you know, every every day, But when it's aimed at
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Speaker 9: your daughter, your baby girl, you know, because it's all
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Speaker 9: started happening when she's five, now she's.
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Speaker 1: Twenty, they stalk her, not only threatened harm to her horrible, horrible,
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Speaker 1: despicable crimes on her, but to her little girl as well.
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Speaker 1: Take a listen to evil us speaking to me cut sixteen.
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Speaker 9: You know, right out of the gate they were they
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Speaker 9: were really horrifyingly deviant and evil, I mean, and they
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Speaker 9: would even talk about Satanic rituals and you know, marrying
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Speaker 9: us both in and holding us the hostage is sex
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Speaker 9: slaves and impregnating my daughter and then and then in
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Speaker 9: literally nightmares detail.
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Speaker 6: Talk about how he was going.
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Speaker 9: To you know, continually rape and then disembowel and dismember
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Speaker 9: my daughter in front of me and then do the
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Speaker 9: same to me.
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Speaker 6: So it just it would, and it seemed to always be.
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Speaker 1: Some variation on the thing, right, and dis bowel her
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Speaker 1: daughter who's jumping.
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Speaker 7: Is this you, Paul, it's Paul, yes, And you know
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Speaker 7: that's that's a good point. My thirty years of being
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Speaker 7: a cop and ten years exclusively dedicated to mitigating stalkers,
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Speaker 7: I can tell you that it's simply a matter of
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Speaker 7: taking their word. When somebody says I'm going to do that,
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Speaker 7: I'm going to kill you all the things that we
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Speaker 7: just heard, we need to just take it seriously, take
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Speaker 7: them at their word, and mitigate accordingly. We don't need
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Speaker 7: to wait for the actions. They've thought about it, they've
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Speaker 7: said it. We need to stop them before they do it.
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Speaker 7: But systemically, that is what we fail to do repeatedly,
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Speaker 7: and it's sickening.
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Speaker 1: You know. What I don't get is the fact that
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Speaker 1: we can this is a cliche, put people on the moon.
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Speaker 1: We can come up with all sorts of amazing developments digitally,
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Speaker 1: all sorts of mechanical triumphs, but we can't control a stalker.
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Speaker 1: I mean, some people would argue doctor Angela are all
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Speaker 1: the only way to stop a stalker is to just
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Speaker 1: kill him. I guess you saw a fatal attraction ly
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Speaker 1: Glenn close.
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Speaker 3: Right, definitely several times.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, she didn't stop stalking him until he was living
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Speaker 1: in fear. His wife was living in fear, his family
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Speaker 1: was in fear. She didn't stop until she was dead.
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Speaker 3: Well, because Nancy, think about something. Stalkers aren't going to
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Speaker 3: get better. They're not going to all of a sudden
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Speaker 3: wake up one day and say I don't think I'm
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Speaker 3: going to stalk this person anymore. They're stalking the person
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Speaker 3: for a purpose, and they're getting some sort of you
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Speaker 3: know I said before the show, the stalker man that's
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Speaker 3: doing this to her. Right now, he's going to listen.
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Speaker 8: To this show.
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Speaker 3: He's loving the attention he's getting.
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Speaker 1: Why what does that mean?
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Speaker 3: He's getting something out of the attention. That's why he
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Speaker 3: keeps going back for more. Okay, someone is noticing him,
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Speaker 3: and in his mind this this is working for him. Okay,
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Speaker 3: because if he's getting noticed public, then that must mean
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Speaker 3: that Taylor Swift is saying something about it. So in
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Speaker 3: his mind, he's getting attention from Taylor Swift, and that's
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Speaker 3: what he wanted.
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Speaker 9: To I thought immediately was a real threat. I had
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Speaker 9: no idea where he was, where the letter was coming from.
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Speaker 9: I didn't know if he lived down the street. I
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Speaker 9: didn't know if he was already following me. I didn't
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Speaker 9: know if he I didn't know what he knew about me,
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Speaker 9: like where I worked, where she went to school. We
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Speaker 9: didn't know anything, and that was where the greatest fear was.
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Speaker 9: If we were constantly looking over our shoulder. We didn't
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Speaker 9: know if he was going to show up on the
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Speaker 9: doorstep at any moment.
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Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace to you, Nicole Parton joining
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Speaker 1: US Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. What do we
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Speaker 1: know so far? I know this guy claims he's from Seattle,
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Speaker 1: but has no plans to go back home. He knows
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Speaker 1: enough to lie to police.
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Speaker 10: What more, Yeah, he was formerly a college student in Seattle,
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Speaker 10: but we know that since November he has been there
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Speaker 10: in Tribeca, not just stalking Taylor Swift, but harassing her neighbors.
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Speaker 10: One neighbor said she fears for her life. She can't
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Speaker 10: even leave the home because this guy is pacing the doorsteps, chainsmoking.
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Speaker 10: Several nights, he slept on the doorsteps in front of
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Speaker 10: their town homes. There we know that he was trying
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Speaker 10: to jiggle the doorknob and actually get in to Taylor
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Speaker 10: Swift's home, So he's stalking her. But also at this
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Speaker 10: point neighbors are afraid of him. They step outside, begins
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Speaker 10: to question them. Whereas Taylor, when is she coming back?
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Speaker 10: On and on and on. Obviously this guy is serious
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Speaker 10: about what he's trying to do, and I agree with
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Speaker 10: what's been said. He keeps coming back because the attention
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Speaker 10: is working. This latest incident where he's in the dumpster.
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Speaker 10: He was mumbling later to authorities and to reporters, I
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Speaker 10: was just looking for my pants as to somehow imply
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Speaker 10: that he left his pants at Taylor swift home.
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Speaker 1: Okay, I'm sure that would be needs to Taylor Swift
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Speaker 1: and her boyfriend, the football player. Guys, take a listen
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Speaker 1: to Sidney Sumner and our cut three.
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Speaker 2: David Crowe is no longer some anonymous fan to people
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Speaker 2: in Taylor Swift's neighborhood. Someone realized it was Crowe who
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Speaker 2: was back sitting near the building on the loading dog
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Speaker 2: and called nine one one. Police arrived and arrested Crow
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Speaker 2: on a criminal contempt charge due to the fact and
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Speaker 2: order of protection had just been issued during his arraignment
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Speaker 2: on two counts of harassment and two counts of stalking.
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Speaker 1: So Nicole parton. He just gets out on two counts
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Speaker 1: of harassment and stalking, four counts in all, and goes
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Speaker 1: straight back to her place.
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Speaker 10: Yes, within hours, within hours of walking out of court,
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Speaker 10: he goes and he's seen smoking outside McDonald's a few
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Speaker 10: blocks away. Next thing we know, he makes his way
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Speaker 10: down to her home again, rummaging through things, getting blankets
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Speaker 10: out of that dumpster, and then sitting there on a
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Speaker 10: loading dock. And that's when neighbors. One neighbor specifically says,
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Speaker 10: my heart dropped. I was afraid for my life, and
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Speaker 10: so I called authorities back to let him know this
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Speaker 10: man came right back down here and more.
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Speaker 4: Listen when police get a nine to one one call
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Speaker 4: from Taylor Swift's building about her stalker. Returning, police find
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Speaker 4: David Crowe, who tells them he is from Seattle and
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Speaker 4: is on his way to take a flight home. DMZ
21:30
Speaker 4: reports Crow is from Seattle, but police find no evidence
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Speaker 4: that Crow has any plans for a trip home.
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Speaker 2: David Crowe has been in New York for months The
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Speaker 2: New York Post reports prosecutors revealed that Crow had stalked
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Speaker 2: out Taylor Swift's townhouse thirty times in the past two months.
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Speaker 2: What makes things a little more scary is that Swift
21:47
Speaker 2: is actually in town this week and has been seen
21:50
Speaker 2: out with Britney Mahomes and Kara de Levine. No confirmation
21:53
Speaker 2: as Swift was home this time when Crow was arrested.
21:56
Speaker 1: Did you catch that Troy Slayton, Troy Slayton, high profile
21:59
Speaker 1: criminal defense attorney joining us out of la He knew
22:02
Speaker 1: enough to lie to police that he was headed back
22:06
Speaker 1: home to Seattle.
22:08
Speaker 6: Well that's not even the important part of the analysis, Nancy.
22:12
Speaker 1: Well maybe not to you, but it's important to me
22:15
Speaker 1: that he's not crazy, he's not mainly disturbed, he's not homeless.
22:19
Speaker 1: He knows enough to go back to her place wait
22:24
Speaker 1: and then when found by police, lie to them to
22:27
Speaker 1: get out of it.
22:28
Speaker 6: Even if he goes back to Seattle, he's still going
22:31
Speaker 6: to have to come back to New York as ordered
22:33
Speaker 6: by the court, to handle his criminal matters. And this
22:37
Speaker 6: is a very important lesson for all the listeners. If
22:41
Speaker 6: somebody is engaging in a course of harassment, a course
22:44
Speaker 6: of conduct that would make you reasonably fear for your safety,
22:49
Speaker 6: you have to go in and get a civil order
22:52
Speaker 6: of protection. So that way, if the person comes within
22:57
Speaker 6: the protected zone around you, typically one hundred yards, then
23:01
Speaker 6: that person can be picked up by police, even for
23:04
Speaker 6: doing something as innocuous as sitting on the loading dock.
23:08
Speaker 7: I understand where you're go ahead, Paul, Yeah, Nan to
23:10
Speaker 7: understand what you're trying to say, and that is the
23:12
Speaker 7: guy's just not deranged. He's methodical, he knows what he's doing.
23:17
Speaker 7: He's evil, and he's manipulus. He knows exactly what to
23:20
Speaker 7: tell those cops to get them to go away, and
23:23
Speaker 7: just think that he's harmless. And that is that is
23:26
Speaker 7: the absolute scariest part of stalking offenders is they are
23:31
Speaker 7: the most diabolical group their way, criminalities on one side,
23:37
Speaker 7: evils on the other, and they've taken several steps towards evil.
23:40
Speaker 1: You know one thing that struck me, Renee Williams, when
23:43
Speaker 1: I was listening and speaking with Evil Aru the TV star,
23:47
Speaker 1: is that she said she never knew when just hanging
23:51
Speaker 1: around her place was going to turn into violence.
23:55
Speaker 8: That's exactly right, and one of the elements of stalking
23:58
Speaker 8: and spears, and I think for all victims. Well, let's
24:01
Speaker 8: go back actually to all of the media coverage of
24:04
Speaker 8: Taylor Swift. We have stripped this woman of her privacy
24:07
Speaker 8: and dignity. And I'm looking at the New York Daily
24:10
Speaker 8: News article on this. They posted a photo of her
24:12
Speaker 8: home and the cross street of her address. So now
24:15
Speaker 8: if anybody didn't know where she lived, they do now
24:18
Speaker 8: and they can stock her, so we can. We have
24:20
Speaker 8: stripped this woman of her privacy, like we stripped many
24:23
Speaker 8: celebrities of their privacy, and then we expect them to
24:27
Speaker 8: not have fear, and we say, well, they've put themselves
24:30
Speaker 8: in the public spotlight, they should expect this, But that's
24:34
Speaker 8: fundamentally wrong. We're really stripping them of their dignity.
24:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, very curious. If Taylor Swift or Madonna can't really
24:42
Speaker 1: stop stalk her, where does that leave the rest of us?
24:47
Speaker 1: Isn't it true to you and call parton that he's
24:50
Speaker 1: actually tried to get into her home.
24:52
Speaker 2: He did.
24:53
Speaker 10: That was the first incident that happened on Saturday. He
24:56
Speaker 10: was actually tugging at the door twist, seeing the door knob,
25:01
Speaker 10: trying to get in to her apartment.
25:03
Speaker 1: Guys, you just heard it mentioned that her cross streets
25:08
Speaker 1: in New York were published in a picture, so everybody
25:13
Speaker 1: knows where she lives. Same thing happened to Eva Listen.
25:18
Speaker 9: Because we had, you know, we had a gate gate
25:21
Speaker 9: and hedge issue, and I had to I was at
25:24
Speaker 9: the city and getting a variant for these things, and
25:28
Speaker 9: the city leaked my address on the online camp you know,
25:32
Speaker 9: on their online court camera. They said my address on
25:37
Speaker 9: the online court camera, and immediately it was out.
25:40
Speaker 1: And then even the.
25:42
Speaker 9: News cameras came like a couple of days later, saying
25:45
Speaker 9: do you see that you're of a you know, you're
25:47
Speaker 9: trying to get a variance, and I was like, how
25:49
Speaker 9: is that news?
25:50
Speaker 7: But you all just found.
25:51
Speaker 9: My address and within about a week the letters started
25:55
Speaker 9: coming directly.
25:55
Speaker 6: To my house.
25:56
Speaker 1: So her stalker found her extremely deterred. Rmond Time Stories
26:15
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace choice late not to give away any
26:19
Speaker 1: information on your clients that you have represented. But once
26:23
Speaker 1: these obsessive males get fixated on a target, they are tenacious.
26:29
Speaker 1: They will not stop.
26:31
Speaker 6: That's true. Nancy, and I even had a very personal
26:34
Speaker 6: experience back in the mid eighties. I was a guest
26:38
Speaker 6: star on my Sister Sam with Rebecca Schaeffer, who was
26:41
Speaker 6: killed just two years later by a stalker, and helped
26:47
Speaker 6: prompt the legislation that was anti stalking law that was
26:53
Speaker 6: a landmark in California. But going back to your question,
26:58
Speaker 6: I've represented many people who were accused of stalking harassment,
27:05
Speaker 6: and the law is in many jurisdictions inadequate and many
27:12
Speaker 6: times because we live in such a free society, because
27:14
Speaker 6: it's not illegal to go around to go about.
27:19
Speaker 1: Well, when you say go around and go about, what
27:21
Speaker 1: about trying to get into her home, testing the doors,
27:24
Speaker 1: trying to get in, looking in the windows. Isn't that
27:26
Speaker 1: peeping tom or attempted burglary?
27:28
Speaker 6: That's attempted burgs That would be attempted burglar.
27:30
Speaker 1: Why isn't he charged with that? Is he the goal
27:32
Speaker 1: of pardon? Is he charged with peeping tom? Is he
27:34
Speaker 1: charged with a tempted burglary? Is not? Well? He should be?
27:37
Speaker 1: What about that Troy Slayton.
27:40
Speaker 6: He should be? I agree, But what evidence do we
27:43
Speaker 6: have of that? Eyewitnesses well, and an eyewitness account doesn't
27:47
Speaker 6: sound like he's being charged with that. And all of
27:50
Speaker 6: the media accounts right now are focused on the harassment
27:56
Speaker 6: and stocking charges.
27:58
Speaker 1: I mean, this is Time Magazines Person of the Year,
28:02
Speaker 1: and the law seems powerless to stop a stalker that
28:07
Speaker 1: at any moment could erupt into violence. It's not her
28:12
Speaker 1: only stalker. She's got a lot more to contend with.
28:14
Speaker 1: I mean, we're on the outside looking in and we think, oh,
28:17
Speaker 1: what a glamorous life, your beautiful clothes, your wonderful career,
28:20
Speaker 1: you're awesome boyfriend. But this woman has multiple stalkers. Listen.
28:26
Speaker 11: Taylor Swift has a history of fans taking things too far.
28:30
Speaker 11: A Florida man broke into Swift's home in New York
28:33
Speaker 11: City in twenty eighteen. He was sentenced to jail after
28:37
Speaker 11: pleading guilty to criminal contempt and attempted burglary. That was
28:41
Speaker 11: followed up in twenty nineteen by an Iowa man who
28:45
Speaker 11: said he just wanted to meet the singer. He was
28:48
Speaker 11: arrested near her beachfront mansion carrying a crowbar and lock picks.
28:52
Speaker 11: A few months after that experience, a man from New
28:55
Speaker 11: Jersey was caught inside her home.
28:58
Speaker 1: Police said a woman who had been.
28:59
Speaker 2: Worn to stay away from Taylor Swift's home in Rhode
29:02
Speaker 2: Island was arrested outside the beach front property. WFSB reports
29:06
Speaker 2: the woman was discovered in front of the home despite
29:08
Speaker 2: previous warnings to stay away, and subsequently arrested.
29:12
Speaker 1: Paul Zike, did you just hear the one guy was
29:15
Speaker 1: arrested in her home waiting for her to walk in
29:20
Speaker 1: and do what? Recite poetry? Hell no, he was going
29:23
Speaker 1: to either rape her or murder her or both.
29:27
Speaker 7: Absolutely, And that's the progression. It starts with a lot
29:30
Speaker 7: of reports, it starts with following, it starts with physical surveillance,
29:34
Speaker 7: and then it starts with them standing over you while
29:37
Speaker 7: you're in bed sleeping one fateful evening. The reality is,
29:41
Speaker 7: if law enforcement had rolling surveillance on this guy twenty
29:45
Speaker 7: four to seven, they'd see him turning the doorknob, they'd
29:49
Speaker 7: see the other things that he's doing. Is he going
29:52
Speaker 7: to places and buying rope? Is he going to gunshops?
29:55
Speaker 7: Where did he go when he is not stalking her?
29:58
Speaker 7: That could kind of be a mandate. That's kind of ridiculous.
30:02
Speaker 7: No police department has the resources to put twenty four
30:08
Speaker 7: hour surveillance on every alleged stalker.
30:11
Speaker 1: Well, I'm not saying they should. I'm saying they should
30:14
Speaker 1: put him in jail and leave him there.
30:16
Speaker 7: And I didn't say they should do it to every stalker,
30:19
Speaker 7: but use threat assessment to figure out those stalkers that
30:22
Speaker 7: are most likely to kill. And I have to say,
30:25
Speaker 7: in ten years of actually doing this and mitigating over
30:28
Speaker 7: eighteen hundred and fifty stalkers, that's exactly what you need.
30:33
Speaker 7: You need surveillance and if it takes twenty four to
30:36
Speaker 7: seven to save a life, you better find the money
30:38
Speaker 7: to do it. There's no excuse, guys.
30:40
Speaker 1: It escalates. I've seen it a million times. It starts
30:45
Speaker 1: off with maybe love letters or flowers and surprise visits.
30:50
Speaker 1: Then it develops into anger when the female does not
30:54
Speaker 1: respond the way the stalker wants. I mean, here's a
30:58
Speaker 1: good example. Terse 's Saldonna. You'll remember her. She's a
31:03
Speaker 1: famous actress and starn and the commission listen.
31:05
Speaker 4: Teresa Saldona's career had just taken off with the starmaking
31:08
Speaker 4: part in Martin Scorsese's Raging Bull. Walking outside her West
31:12
Speaker 4: Hollywood apartment, she was approached by Kraze stalker Arthur Jackson.
31:16
Speaker 4: Jackson asked Saldona if she was the famous actress she
31:19
Speaker 4: appeared to be. When she said yes, Jackson attack stabbing
31:22
Speaker 4: her ten times with a hunting knife. A passing delivery
31:25
Speaker 4: truck driver fought off her attacker and held him until
31:27
Speaker 4: cops arrived. Saldana spent three months in the hospital recovering
31:31
Speaker 4: from her injuries. Saldana survived the attack to win a
31:33
Speaker 4: Golden Glove for her work on the Commission in the nineties,
31:36
Speaker 4: and was an activist for the rest of her life.
31:37
Speaker 4: Arthur Jackson kept a diary where he had written the
31:40
Speaker 4: day of the attack, he was on a divine mission
31:42
Speaker 4: to bring Saldona to eternity. Jackson was sentenced to fourteen
31:46
Speaker 4: years in prison for the attack on Saldana.
31:48
Speaker 1: Doctor Angie Arnold take her with him to eternity.
31:52
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, Nancy, these people don't necessarily start off delusional,
31:59
Speaker 3: but when this is all that they're doing, So imagine
32:02
Speaker 3: this guy that's stalking Taylor Swift right now, Nancy. He's
32:06
Speaker 3: not going to a job and then stalking Taylor Swift.
32:09
Speaker 3: This is taking up every minute of his day, it appears,
32:14
Speaker 3: and so he can become delusional and have thoughts that
32:20
Speaker 3: are not true about Taylor Swift. And so somehow he
32:24
Speaker 3: may start to believe if I can't have her no
32:28
Speaker 3: one can. And as I said previously, these feelings will intensify.
32:34
Speaker 3: He's not going to his psychiatrist and telling his psychiatrist
32:38
Speaker 3: whose delusional thoughts about Taylor Swift. He's doing all of
32:42
Speaker 3: this inside of his own.
32:43
Speaker 1: Head, you know, Doctor Angie, speaking of whole fantasy life.
32:49
Speaker 1: This guy doesn't see her as Taylor Swift and him
32:52
Speaker 1: as a freaky stalker. He sees her as his soulmate,
32:58
Speaker 1: and they're going to be together through all eternity. And
33:01
Speaker 1: it reminds me of another star. I first started her
33:05
Speaker 1: on The Voice, but she went on A star of movies,
33:07
Speaker 1: Christina Grimy. Listen.
33:09
Speaker 4: Christina Grimy began singing covers of popular songs on her
33:12
Speaker 4: YouTube channel and reached over four million fans. She finished
33:15
Speaker 4: third on the TV show The Voice and had just
33:17
Speaker 4: appeared in her first motion picture, The match Breaker. Christina
33:20
Speaker 4: Grimy attracted the attention of Kevin Loible. Loeubel was infatuated
33:24
Speaker 4: with Grimy and believed the pair would be together and
33:26
Speaker 4: get married until he was shown a picture of the
33:28
Speaker 4: singer with another man. Loubel became enraged and as Christina
33:32
Speaker 4: Grimmy was signing autographs after a concert in Orlando, Florida.
33:36
Speaker 4: A twenty seven year old Loibel approached Grimmy. She reached
33:38
Speaker 4: out to give him a hug. He pulled his glock
33:41
Speaker 4: and shot her three times. Grimmy's brother jumped on Lobel,
33:44
Speaker 4: but he broke free, backed against the wall, and shot
33:45
Speaker 4: himself to death. Christina Grimmy was just twenty two years old.
33:49
Speaker 1: I'm also wondering what can further set this guy off?
33:53
Speaker 1: We all, I mean, unless you've been living under a
33:56
Speaker 1: rock in a cave on the other side of the world,
34:00
Speaker 1: you know that Taylor Swift is dating a wildly successful
34:04
Speaker 1: football player, Travis Kelcey. Now, what is he going to do?
34:09
Speaker 1: The stalker when he is made aware that Taylor Swift
34:14
Speaker 1: is in a love relationship with this successful, handsome football player.
34:20
Speaker 1: What's going to happen in his mind? What about it,
34:24
Speaker 1: Doctor Angie?
34:25
Speaker 3: Well, in his mind, Nancy, I imagine he may want
34:27
Speaker 3: to kill both of them. Nancy, this story is so
34:33
Speaker 3: scary and it is fraught with so much danger that
34:37
Speaker 3: I truly don't believe most people understand the level of
34:41
Speaker 3: danger that she's in right now.
34:43
Speaker 7: I agree with that Well is that Zeke, Yes, it is,
34:45
Speaker 7: And I totally agree with that it's literally like everyone
34:49
Speaker 7: is standing around until she's murdered, and then the next
34:52
Speaker 7: time it happens, we'll all do the same thing again.
34:55
Speaker 7: And when I say we all the law enforcement community,
34:58
Speaker 7: they're not trained. Law cops are just not trained for this.
35:02
Speaker 7: They're not trained for what you might do, what you
35:04
Speaker 7: think you'll do. They're trained to statutorily, you know, enforced laws.
35:09
Speaker 7: And that's where advanced training on this topic needs to
35:14
Speaker 7: be inactive.
35:15
Speaker 1: I don't know that we have time for the New
35:18
Speaker 1: York Assembly up an Albany to move their ear ends
35:22
Speaker 1: and do something. What could happen right now? And anybody
35:25
Speaker 1: on the panel, if you disagree, jump in and give
35:27
Speaker 1: me a better idea. He could be and dieted for
35:31
Speaker 1: a felony like attempted burglary. Of course, peeping Tom that's
35:34
Speaker 1: not a felony. But is that a way to put
35:38
Speaker 1: him behind bars? We all know that in the recent hours,
35:42
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift AI artificial intelligence porn has emerged. Somebody has
35:50
Speaker 1: taken Taylor Swift's likeness and created about a fake Taylor
35:57
Speaker 1: Swift engaging in porn. Another thing for her to think about.
36:05
Speaker 1: But I'm just wondering. Renee Williams. You have so much
36:10
Speaker 1: experience dealing with stalkers and prosecuting them. If this guy,
36:16
Speaker 1: David Crow were too see that, it could be so
36:23
Speaker 1: incendiary that he may react.
36:26
Speaker 8: It can be devastating, and even without him seeing it,
36:29
Speaker 8: it's devastating to her. And there's a lot of fury
36:34
Speaker 8: over that.
36:34
Speaker 7: Right now.
36:35
Speaker 8: I wish that the fury was there for the children
36:38
Speaker 8: that AI bots are being made of. You know, this
36:40
Speaker 8: is a problem that we are fully aware of in
36:42
Speaker 8: the crime victims field, and it's fighting an uphill battle.
36:46
Speaker 8: There are a handful of states that have made it
36:47
Speaker 8: illegal to use AI in pornography, but it still happens, obviously,
36:53
Speaker 8: and it's out there.
36:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a deep fake porn website and I
36:58
Speaker 1: hope that she sues them. But you know what they'll do.
37:02
Speaker 1: I learned this working at the Federal Trade Commission. They'll
37:05
Speaker 1: just close down under that name and pop up. It's like,
37:08
Speaker 1: why come on, They'll pop up under another name. But yes,
37:13
Speaker 1: I agree with you completely, But right now, Troy Slayton,
37:18
Speaker 1: you never know what is going to set a stalker off.
37:21
Speaker 1: I mean, is it going to be a picture of
37:24
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift on the front page of the New York
37:26
Speaker 1: Post with her boyfriend Travis Kelcey. Is he going to
37:29
Speaker 1: see that and go kill her? Is he going to
37:33
Speaker 1: think that Taylor Swift somehow is in porn which is
37:36
Speaker 1: actually created by some AI porn site. I don't know
37:41
Speaker 1: what could push this guy over the edge and make
37:43
Speaker 1: him retaliate against her. He obviously thinks they have a relationship.
37:47
Speaker 6: By definition, you can't predict crazy, and the photos of
37:51
Speaker 6: this guy definitely have crazy eyes.
37:54
Speaker 1: Oh wait, you the jurisdictor and the lawyer, you're now
37:58
Speaker 1: diagnosing him is crazy because of a picture you saw. Okay, look,
38:03
Speaker 1: he knew enough to light a cops. He knows enough
38:07
Speaker 1: to get back to her place. He knows exactly what's
38:10
Speaker 1: going on and what he's doing. He's not crazy. He's
38:12
Speaker 1: a stalker.
38:13
Speaker 6: But now all eyes are on him, and Taylor Swift
38:17
Speaker 6: has the resources to protect herself. I'm not worried about
38:21
Speaker 6: her safety.
38:22
Speaker 1: That's what John Lennon thought, and my sister Sam and
38:27
Speaker 1: Evil LaRue, That's what they all thought. Madonna thought that
38:30
Speaker 1: they had to shoot her stalker down, shoot him to
38:34
Speaker 1: make him leave her alone. He went to jail for
38:37
Speaker 1: ten years. She's probably out by now, or about to
38:40
Speaker 1: get out to go stalk her again. So we think,
38:43
Speaker 1: oh wow, she's famous, she's got all these resources. You know,
38:47
Speaker 1: those stars weren't able to stop their stalker. The only
38:51
Speaker 1: way the stalker is going to be stopped is to
38:53
Speaker 1: either kill him or put him behind bars and keep
38:59
Speaker 1: him there. Are you listening New York, Nancy.
39:02
Speaker 11: We've gotten word that David Crowe is back behind bars
39:05
Speaker 11: for violating his court order to stay away from Swift's
39:09
Speaker 11: Tribeca townhouse. According to prosecutors, Crowe's actions made it clear
39:15
Speaker 11: he was unable to obey a court order. Crowe was
39:19
Speaker 11: arraigned on a charge of second degree criminal contempt. He
39:23
Speaker 11: has also been ordered to undergo a psychiatric exam that
39:27
Speaker 11: was requested by his defense lawyer. Crowe was remanded to
39:31
Speaker 11: Rikers Island.
39:32
Speaker 1: We wait as just as un foals. Goodbye friend,