Latest / The Partial Historians / Episode 160 – The Fall of Veii: Part Three
Transcript
- Dr Rad 0:15 Music. Welcome to the partial historians. Dr G 0:18 We explore all the details of ancient Rome, Dr Rad 0:23 everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles wage and when citizens turn against each other, I'm Dr rad and Dr G 0:33 I'm Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts. Dr. Rad Dr G 1:02 and I am. Dr, G, Dr Rad 1:04 dr, G, it's been a long time since we have had a year where we have needed not one, not two, but three episodes to get through all the history that the Romans packed into this year. Dr G 1:17 It is shocking, made all the more shocking by the fact that my source material doesn't give me any indication of what year stuff is happening in. So pull me up when I go too far ahead just in my pure excitement, because as far as Plutarch is concerned, there is a lot going on in this year, and he does not stop to tell me when the year might have changed. Look, Dr Rad 1:40 it's fair enough. It's fair enough. As we know, the Romans are a little bit creative with their dating at this point in time. So you know what just we'll just call it circa 396, BCE, Dr G 1:51 there was some stuff, and it happened around about now. Dr Rad 1:55 I think that's actually the academic consensus at this moment in time, that there was stuff happening around about now, Dr G 2:03 certainly, I mean, that feeds in very nicely to the difficulties with the idea of a 10 year siege of they this is true, and the way that that builds into that sort of literary analysis of this whole moment in Rome's history. But I'm actually very excited to learn that there is indeed a third episode to be had, because when we finished the last episode, I was like, I think we must be done. And this is the problem when you no longer have an analyst, source tradition to go on, there's more, it turns out. Well, Dr Rad 2:34 look, this is what Livy tells me anyway, so let's do it. Dr, G, a brief recap for the listeners that have not listened to part one and part two of 396, the fall of a as we have chosen to call it. Well, Dr G 2:47 first of all, do yourselves a favor. Pause right now go back to the previous two episodes. So the basic Upshot seems to be that Rome has run into some real strife on a lot of different fronts, and it does not look like it's going to be a super great year for the Romans, if the first episode in this series is anything to go by, they suffer some defeats. Everybody's a little bit unhappy. But then all of a sudden, things take a turn, and this seems to be when we bring a dictator onto the field. And the dictator is a very, very special character, and Camillus is his name, Dr Rad 3:31 absolutely so important is he that It is theorized that Livy may have organized his first 10 books around the life of Camillus. That's just how significant. Dr G 3:42 Wow. Livy. Livy's a fanboy. Okay? Dr Rad 3:45 He wanted to. It is theorized. Anyway, Livy, at no point says this, but it is theorized that we hit book five, book six, right when Camillus appears. So, you know, right in that middle part where he's like, I need a big character. I need a lead. Unknown Speaker 3:59 I need a hero, Dr G 4:03 and Camillus seems to be shiny and fancy and very capable, although in some of the other source material. And I'm going to be interested to hear your perspective of how this sort of clashes maybe with Livy is some of the things that Plutarch has to say are less than positive. Dr Rad 4:22 Nobody's Perfect, or should I say, Pobody's nerfect. Dr G, but he just has some really standout moments, and this is one of them, because, of course, last episode, we had a very big moment. Was this the tunneling moment? Well, okay, you might call it the tunneling moment. Other people would call it kicking Veii's ass. Dr G 4:43 Well, fair enough, there's nothing quite like digging a tunnel that goes right underneath a major temple inside your enemy city, and then popping out just the right time to interrupt a sacrifice to then finish the sacrifice yourself in order to. Complete the Omen, that means that you will be victorious in this whole war, rather than the people who had started doing the sacrifice in the first place. Hey, Dr Rad 5:10 you're a religious historian, you should appreciate the effort that they went to in order to get that sacrifice and make sure that the Omen was going to work in their favor. Dr G 5:20 If we learn anything, it is timing and the gods is crucial, yes. Dr Rad 5:26 So we had this rather dramatic scene where finally, finally, Veii, the thorn in room sighed for literally decades. Dr G has fallen, and we left off at a very interesting moment, which is when Camillus got to step back after commanding the Roman forces and go, ooh, I'm picturing like Aladdin's Cave of Wonders now, the amount of booty, huh, just overwhelming. Who knew you could pack all of that into that type pair of jeans Give it to me, and he's so overwhelmed that he has to make this big pronouncement, this big prayer, and that's the moment that we finished on last time, because he makes this very important vow, which is talking about how he wants to give thanks to the gods. But if any of the gods or any Roman men were getting a little jelly of his booty, then it was going to be up to him to try and sort all of that out, hopefully without harm to himself. In the state while he was doing this, he fell, Dr G 6:31 yes, this was an awkward moment. He went for a bit of a trip, caught himself and sort of corrects himself quite quickly, and is like, huzzah. It's a sign that the gods are on my side, and everybody else is kind of like seeing him stumble, being like, it's a bad sign, and he really tries to cover it up. So that's an awkward moment, and maybe has some slight foreshadowing. But I do like the sort of self sacrifice aspect of this, where he's kind of like whatever happens from here, gods, let it be upon my head and not upon all of the Romans. I've done my best to turn this whole thing around, and I'm willing to take one for the team. Dr Rad 7:13 Although he does have the proviso that he would rather it didn't hurt him, like I'm happy to sort it out, but I'd rather it wasn't at my own expense again. And maybe Dr G 7:23 the tripping, maybe the tripping over then is like the first thing where the gods are like, Haha, it's like, no. Dr Rad 7:30 Now you might find some pedantic academics, Dr G, that say that all of this is a little bit too convenient. There's a little bit too much foreshadowing going on here, but I say this is, quite frankly, a relief to see an experienced Roman politician who had a very important moment stuff it up and fall over, because it's exactly the kind of thing that I would do. Why I never wear heels when I need to walk on a stage anymore, because I know there's too much of a risk that I will fall and break my own neck. Yeah, Dr G 8:03 it's not worth it. You do not want to put the gods on notice like that. So I mean, Camillus seems to be as Dr Rad 8:09 hubris wearing heels to the port occasion where you have to walk in front of a crowd. Now, Dr G 8:13 I'm too old for that kind of thing. Exactly. I just wear stylish flats. So Camillus has this sort of moment where he's overwhelmed by what he sees. And Plutarch does pick up on this as well. So the boundlessness of the wealth is apparently so overwhelming to Camillus that he burst into tears. And I kind of, I love that we don't, we don't often get these moments of Roman men having a good cry. But if a Roman man is going to have a cry, it turns out it's when he sees a real pile of treasure he has just spent a long time conquering. I was going Dr Rad 8:48 to say it's not exactly what you'd hope. You kind of think maybe the birth of his first child, or something like that might merit such tears. I Dr G 8:57 don't think we can credit the Romans with having a high emotional intelligence at this point, but piles of booty un hitherto seen before is enough to bring a sparkle nail tear to the eye of Camillus, a Dr Rad 9:13 manly tear, just like Kirk Douglas, single tears now. Dr, G, this is the moment that we left off, and so it's time to delve into the rest of 396, BC, normally this is the point where we would, of course, do the magistrates, but again, see part one already done all the Latin, not doing it again. Dr G 9:30 And also, guys, you don't need to know most of those names. No. Dr Rad 9:33 Camillus, that isn't clear. We'll Dr G 9:37 be talking about Camillus, and almost exclusively about Camillus, Dr Rad 9:41 yeah, so the grain of truth to what we're looking at here, Dr G, is that there's no doubt that Veii was a very wealthy city, and that it was indeed a coup for Rome to have conquered Veii, which indeed they did. That is all historical fact. As far as we can see, it might not have been. And quite as dramatic as the sources. Of course, would have us believe, if you look at the archeology, there's a relative amount of continuity at this site. However, drama is what I want, and so I'm going to lean into Livy's narrative here. Dr G 10:16 Please do. Let's not let the archeologists get in the way of a good story, Dr Rad 10:20 definitely not. This is why I chose history of archeology. I don't have to break a sweat, and it's far more dramatic. So the following day, all those who were captured from they sold into slavery. Now this is, unfortunately, part of, you know, the beauty that we're talking about here, the Romans obviously have an opportunity to make money from selling off their captured enemies, and this is kind of how things often work in the ancient world, Dr G 10:50 okay, but logistical question, who has the money to buy said slaves? It seems like the whole region is in a bit of an economic downturn, as far as I understand it, and people have been scraping together funds from wherever they can. Are you saying that there's like a traveling slave trader situation of caravans that comes to pick up the people and somehow has wondrous amounts of money to buy the ball to take them elsewhere? What's going on here? Dr Rad 11:19 Indeed, there is an older man named proximo who stopped by with his traveling van. And he happened to have an outstanding gladiator that he just bought, a guy called Maximus, as well as his new best friend, a guy called Juba. And on his travels, on the way to Rome to see Marcus Aurelius and whatnot, he stopped by to purchase all the slaves. Dr G 11:41 I'm pretty excited for that. I mean, finally, now we have the real truth coming out. Dr Rad 11:46 Yeah, no, look, you're quite right. When we look critically at this story, this is a pretty big moment for Rome, because it's, it is something that historically will happen where Rome has these big conquests and it will accrue a lot of people as a result of said conquests. However, early Rome definitely is thought to be a bit too poor, perhaps for widespread slavery. It is thought that the appearance of slaves is something that might have been added later, because it makes sense, given what they know of how Rome does business later on, if you get Madrid. Dr G 12:22 Yeah, that makes complete sense to me. Certainly there would be a whole bunch of people who are displaced in this moment. So I think the question for the Romans would be, who gets to live and who gets to be killed? And often that would mean, if there's no ready way to sell the men, a lot of them would get killed. And if there's not so much of a trade going on for women and children as slaves, they might be colonized in a very unfortunate and violent way. Dr Rad 12:57 It is possible, and unfortunately, we obviously don't have a huge amount of detail. Now, the thing is, there is no doubt that there was a conquest of a at around this time, circa 396, as we said, it is possible that there were indeed some people taken into slavery at this point in time. This might actually be the first historical moment where we do see a large scale capture of people who become POWS and then become slaves. It's possible, however, the main reason that the Romans use slaves, particularly on a large scale later on, is that as they gather more land and they're building more industry and more agriculture, you need the physical labor more. So slaves have a real purpose at this point in time, it's thought that, given the scale of Rome and given the way it's operating, you're probably more likely to have a slave for domestic service purposes, so someone to clean your house, cook your food, that kind of thing. And that would be, I think, a very rich person who has the means to do that, or you might have them to show off your wealth, you know, to have someone purely dedicated to the opening and closing of a particular door in your establishment. But again, that would be, I think, the minority in Rome at this moment in time. Dr G 14:12 Yes. I mean, the other thing that could be happening here is that there is an acceptance of conquest on part of a lot of the population of Veii, and they continue on in some of their traditional roles, farming locally and things like that, under the understanding that they are now being co opted into Rome's population. So this is one of the things that comes up in Plutarch where it's a discussion about is this the time for Rome to divide its own population into half in the sense that they should send half the senators and half the people of Rome to populate they so that there is a dedicated Roman presence there, and keep the other half in Rome proper. Self, and by so doing, extend the really firm boundaries of Roman power with Roman people, Dr Rad 15:07 and keep those Slinky minxy Etruscans in line, keeping an eye on them having a man on the ground, as it were. Dr G 15:16 But of course, most people are pretty upset by this, because who gets to stay in Rome your own home, and who has to leave to go and live in Veii, which is obviously just had a massive siege over many years, take place, so it's not like the funnest place to go to live, but also it's like you're being pushed out of your own home in order to do this thing. So there is a real division set out in Plutarch around this idea of, should people go to vey and try to populate it and colonize it directly as part of a security measure? And if so, who would do that? And some people are upset about that possibility as well. Oh, Dr Rad 15:59 so many possibilities. It's so hard to know what actually happened here. Oh, my, I just don't know where to turn Dr, G, look all I can tell you in favor of my version of things, where it's very much just about the slavery. Thank you. Is that the first recorded slave market? So obviously you need a market if you've got lots of people that you want to sell, isn't until 259 Dr G 16:22 Okay, well, that we are a long way from 259 Dr Rad 16:26 but this could be the first record of a mass enslavement, and it's because it's a one off the room is like, well, we don't need the market for this. We can handle Dr G 16:32 this ourselves. We're like, what we do? What do we do with so many don't know, yeah, Dr Rad 16:36 for Livy, I think it's very much about what then happens with the money. Follow the money. Dr G, so the money raised from selling all these people, because apparently they do sell them, all goes into the state treasury, which might seem sensible, because I'm sure it's depleted after this whole siege, and then also all the other warfare the Romans have been waging. But the plebs are furious about this. Dr G 17:04 Are they now? Why? What's Dr Rad 17:07 this is a big part of Camillus downfall. You know, he has a moment where he peaks with the conquest of Veii and then it's going to Dr G 17:15 go trips over, and it's all downhill from there. Dr Rad 17:19 Yeah, well, no, I mean there. It's not quite there yet, but this is definitely the fly in the ointment, and it will come back to haunt him. So with the question of booty, people didn't really give Camillus enough credit, in Livy's opinion, because he had tried to do the right thing by asking the Senate, look, I'll do what you want me to do. Just tell me. And remember, we had that whole debate in Livy between Appius Claudius and Licinius Calvus, a patrician for being facing off, but they thought Camillus was just basically looking for an excuse to be a tight ass. Did not feel thankful towards the senators. Basically, it's the Licinii who get a lot of the credit for their role in saying, Look, we should really split this with, you know, we should be, we should be the popular people, and make sure the plebs are looked after. So they get a lot of credit. But the plebeians are angry with everybody else, including Camillus. Okay. Dr G 18:17 Now, does this in any way relate to the matter of the 10th portion of the spoils? Dr Rad 18:25 No, not quite, okay. Quite yet we're almost there. Quite Yes, Dr G 18:30 yeah, like, yeah. I'm just trying to figure out where my next bit of information slots into this narrative. We will get there. I remain uncertain as to why the plebeians are upset, because surely, if the money is going into the state treasury, eventually it's going to filter back out to them, because that's how they get paid. Look, Dr Rad 18:48 this is what Appiah Claudius was suggesting. Annoyingly, it does seem quite common sensical that that would be a good thing to do, because then Rome itself is in a better condition, and maybe there's less of attacks on them. I mean, not that we think that there actually was attacks, but in this narrative, various attacks, so it would make sense. But they're not happy with this whole solution. They wanted. They wanted what the like any I had suggested, to happen. So there you go. Now. Now we turn, of course, to what is happening at Veii. So once the Romans have stripped the city of its citizens, because they're in slavery now, and stripped the city itself of anything else that's movable for their own personal gains, they instead, now turn to the temples, and this is where I feel like your religious knowledge will come in. Dr, G, because this is a very big moment. They are respectful, because, of course, these are the gods that they're dealing with here. And one assumes, and also, academics have kind of proven that there is obviously a bit of a religious link between the Romans and the Etruscans for certain deities and practices, and that. Sort of thing, so they come in respectfully. The youth from the army were chosen to perform this very special task. They had to wash their bodies and wear white clothing. And they were told that now is the moment to take the goddess Juno to Rome. And this is again harking back to something that Camillus had done before he had embarked on his big campaign against Veii, he had said to Juno, hey, you're looking fine, toots, how about it? Hmm, Dr G 20:30 all right, so this is a really important moment, because this is the Juno that becomes the foremost Juno in Rome. It is that part of the Capitoline triad of gods. This is THE Juno. So there are many versions of Juno. The Romans love having aspects of their gods and goddesses. And the understanding that the Romans have about where Juno, who is part of the Capitoline triad comes from is this story in some cases. So the idea behind this is that Juno is the foremost Goddess of they. So when we think back to that tunneling story and going through that whole siege process, it is a tunnel that comes up underneath Juno's temple. And if you were to go to the Veii Archeological Park today, which I would definitely recommend, they've done a partial reconstruction of what this temple was supposed to have looked like at the time. So we do have good archeological evidence that there was a temple, a pretty significant one from this time period in Vay. So we think that's where things match up nicely, but then we get this incredible story. And I don't know necessarily about the details Livy is offering, but Plutarch tells us that everybody assembles Camillus is sacrificing and performing prayers to Juno and asks her directly, was she ready and willing to leave a and come to Rome? And everyone hears the goddess speak, and she says, I'm ready take me to Rome. It's where I belong. And they're like The Goddess is speaking to us. Take me away Speaker 1 22:23 a few, not that long, miles away from here. Dr G 22:30 So you know this sort of beautiful moment where people are not sure where the voice comes from, but it's a female voice. It's thought to be the goddess Juno. And this is the idea that the Romans know as evocatio, yes, the idea of inviting a foreign god or goddess to your own city and them accepting, and then you going through the ritual process. They do this with some frequency as Roman history progresses. And this seems to be the first example of it happening. Dr Rad 23:04 So many firsts Dr, G, my goodness, you're absolutely right there. This is a big difference, I think, between Livy and some of the other accounts, like Plutarch. It is not Camillus, who personally does it. He is the one that had initially extended the invitation and been like, hey, listens, you know, you just, you just think about this while I sack this city, and I'll be back when it sits all over, you know, see what you're thinking, see where your head's at. So it's very much the youth that do it in this particular version. And Livy tells me that they went to the temple very respectfully. Once they had got changed and washed, they were very concerned about touching the image of Juno, because as far as they were aware, in Etruscan custom, only a priest from a very particular family was allowed to do this then one of the years. And he says it could be either one of these options here, either was struck with some sort of divine inspiration, oh, or was making a joke and actually asked, you know, Hey, you want to get her own and the rest saw that. She nods her head. However, Livy does acknowledge that afterwards people reported that she'd actually said she was willing to go. Dr G 24:20 Right, okay, so presumably we're talking about a stone sculpture I would or maybe a bronze. That's also possible, potentially even terracotta. Well, Dr Rad 24:31 apparently Etruscan. I'm quoting directly from Ogilvie here, who does a commentary on Livy, which is very helpful to me. He says that Etruscan cult images were designed to be carried, as is proved by the discovery at ve of terracotta statue bases with slots seven centimeters in diameter through which wooden poles could be slipped. Dr G 24:49 Oh, very interesting. Yes, I was like Etruscans are famous for their terracotta work, so that would make complete sense. So rather than having to like. Carry a really large lump of rock back to Rome. It may very well have been a really nicely painted terracotta statue. And they slipped some rods in and went on their way, although the chances, the chances of terracotta nodding, I'm just letting that one pass me bye. Dr, rad, Dr Rad 25:22 but look either way. Livy says, Look, however this actually went down. He's clearly aware that there are many versions of this story. It's definitely felt that the Romans didn't really have to force her. Juno was on board with this whole situation, and therefore she's able to be moved. She is transported to the Aventine. It is here that Camillus dedicates a temple, which she had promised her he would do if she made her way to Rome and left they behind. Yeah, Dr G 25:48 so this is really interesting. So one of the ways that we can think of this Juno, if we were to give her an epithet, is to call her Juno Regina the queen. Juno, the Queen principally associated with the city of Veii, and she does also have connections with some other places, Ardea, which is nowhere near Veii, and Rome's kind of Dr Rad 26:12 we have talked about Ardea, definitely we Dr G 26:14 have, yeah, it's, uh, on the other side of Rome, though, so a bit further away. And Lanuvium, which I can't remember exactly where it is right now, but this idea that Juno Regina has a Military Warrior aspect to her, so the young warrior story of them washing themselves and dressing up nicely for her would make complete sense in that context, If they're trying to impress her. And this idea of her arrival on the Aventine also connects nicely into what we know of some of the broader archeology at Rome, where we have some really old temples. So her placement on the Aventine seems to be relatively short lived. She eventually gets transferred to the Capitoline, but in the meantime, the Aventine is very much associated with the plebeians, so this, I think, has some very positive connotations for how Rome is feeling about this war, maybe how they're trying to build some positive feeling with the plebeians around some of the things that the plebeians might not be feeling so good about. But also emphasizes that this war, from the Romans perspective, was a completely just war. Speaker 2 26:23 It is a really interesting thing because it's thought that the ritual of evocatio, I feel like I'm saying avocado whenever I said the ritual of evocatio is thought to be potentially Etruscan itself in origin, and it's also different to this thing called exoratio, which I believe is when you do still ask a deity whether they want to switch sides, but they're allowed to remain in their original place. Oh, Dr G 28:05 interesting. It's like, Oh yeah, sure, I'm with you guys, but I'm just gonna stay here because it's just more comfortable. Just Dr Rad 28:11 gonna set it up exactly the way I like it, and it's just such a hassle moving. I hate Dr G 28:16 I don't mind dating, but I just need to live by myself, you know, yeah. And Dr Rad 28:21 the interesting thing is, as well, we've talked before, I mentioned in one of our previous episodes about they that even though we do sometimes laugh at some of the details that the Romans have added to this story, like the whole Trojan War aspect and that sort of thing, we have suggested that they are basing this account around priestly records, because there are quite a lot of religious happenings that seem to form very important moments in this story. And that might be the bare bones that they're working with, and then had to fashion the rest of the story around. And the fact that the cult of Juno Regina starts at around this time, circa 396, it again, sort of adds up and adds that bit of historicity, I suppose, to this whole account. Dr G 29:05 And it's certainly not the last time the gods are gonna have a little bit of influence on this year. I would say, Dr Rad 29:11 Yes, exactly, obviously, now that all this stuff has happened, and as you say, it seems completely justified, they got all this booty, even though they're a little bit cranky about it, the Romans can see just how amazing this is at the moment that it happens, apparently, because they say it's, you know, the most important city in the whole Etruscan universe that they have managed to conquer, Dr G 29:33 a bold claim, considering it's at the most southern tip of Etrurian power. Yeah, and Dr Rad 29:38 they do feel like Livy specifically notes that the Romans just feel extra good about it, because it does seem like the gods just allowed Rome to take it, and that they, you know, didn't have to try like that hard in the end to get over the line. And that's that's surely a sign that the gods were on the side. Dr G 29:54 That is some creative narration. Ever I've heard it, not only have we spent. An ample amount of time, considering all of the years of this siege, which has taken forever, but now we're spending three whole episodes on just one year related to this. This is not a fast process Rome, and you have not been doing great at this. Dr Rad 30:16 Well, I think it's, I think it's that idea that they had held out for so long. It seems like it must have been that the gods had deserted they and allowed the Romans to take it, even though, I mean, it's kind it is kind of ridiculous. Obviously they took it by force. But they feel like, well, you know, like it was an effort, but at the same time, the gods clearly we're on our side for this whole thing. Dr G 30:42 Yes, once they got through all of those weird things to do with the Albin Lake omen and all of that sort of stuff, you know, they managed to wrangle it to a point where Juno's like, Yeah, I'll come to Rome. Hi, boys. So Dr Rad 30:56 the Romans, obviously, this is just like the happiest day of their lives so far, and they've had some happy ones, but this one really takes the cake. They feel like they had been on a real roller coaster ride with they. And even before the senators asked them to do anything, the Roman matrons, they're racing to those temples to thank the gods because remember they'd raced to them and being like, please, please save us. Please. And now they're like, well, Dr G 31:21 thanks a lot. You did save us, and we appreciate it very much. Exactly, Dr Rad 31:24 now, the Senate decreed supplications for four days, which is apparently much longer than they usually go for. Okay, Dr G 31:34 all right, so this, this would require a lot of sacrifice. I don't even Dr Rad 31:39 want to think about it, and then, as Camillus is heading back towards Rome, more people than had ever done this before run out to meet him along the way, because they're just overjoyed. And he is the man. He's still at his peak, even though they're a little bit cranky about the whole booty situation. It's almost like he's become one direction all by himself. I know exactly he's being mobbed by fans. Now, this is an interesting finish to the year, which is all about Camillus triumph. Now, apparently Camillus triumph was considered to be OTT by the standards of circa 396 because in his triumph, he had a chariot drawn by four white horses. Some people were not pleased by this. In fact, it was labeled in my translation as undemocratic and irreverent. Oh, really, yeah, apparently this sign and this is where we're going to get I'm going to delve into the details in a little bit. But what Livy is explicitly noting is that this seems like Camillus is trying to make himself the equal of Jupiter and the sun god. And it's outrageous. Dr G 32:44 Goodness me, all right, so Plutarch does have a little bit of detail on this. So he does celebrate a triumph. It is labeled as being with great pomp, as you would expect. And we do get a repetition of this idea of the four white horses harnessed to a chariot which he had mounted and drove through Rome, a thing which no commander had ever done before or afterwards. So great and so fancy was this moment. So Plutarch also suggests that this is the moment where Camillus gets himself on the wrong side of the citizens. Dr Rad 33:23 in agreement on that. Yeah, this is where it starts to go wrong. Dr G 33:27 He is now on a bit of a slide, because people are like, yeah. I mean, taking they was an incredible piece of work, and that's exactly what we signed you up as dictated to do. But these horses, man, it's a lot. I Dr Rad 33:39 mean, a horse is a horse, of course, of course. Dr G 33:43 But for white horses, that's almost two white horses too many. And this is Dr Rad 33:48 where it gets a bit confusing, because we don't have enough evidence about what color would usually be used in a triumph in terms of what Color Horse, certainly white horses do seem to have some sort of connection with the gods, so that part makes sense. However, as we usually find Dr G, it does seem like a lot of stuff has been written later, and they're projecting some of the late Republican nonsense onto Camillus, to a certain extent, because we really whenever anybody's talking about a triumph, apparently, the only time they often really mention the color is when white horses are used. So it's a bit difficult to figure out what color he was supposed to have or how we're supposed to deal with that. Definitely, chariots drawn by white horses are connected to Jupiter and soul, the divine sun god, so okay, and certainly later, people like Julius Caesar will have four white horses in 46 BCE, possibly because of the divine connection, but also possibly because he's trying to imitate. Right? Camillus, like the story that has been built up around Camillus triumph, because again, probably all our later sources have to work with is the fact that they know Camillus had a triumph, and therefore they're putting the details that make sense to them onto this Triumph. Dr G 35:15 So I think one of the things that we might note is that white horses would have a recessive gene, so they're more unlikely than other types of horses, and this would make them special. And that's fine, and that is where you might start to produce a connection to the divine and things like that, things that we don't know about triumphs at this point in time, is everything. So like, what is the root of the tribe? Dr Rad 35:41 A small detail, a small detail. Well, we Dr G 35:44 have a Campus Martius, so that's fine. That's where they're supposed to get organized for the start of their triumph. But beyond that, the topography of Rome is completely different. So what's the route? What's expected? How many horses? What else is going on? All of these things are kind of up for grabs in this early period, and we, we just don't know. So clearly, the the four horses has really stuck in people's minds, and Camillus will go on and continue to build his reputation. He's on a little bit of a downhill at the moment, but I suspect, yeah, I suspect we need to be prepared for the comeback, and when people try to emulate Camillus in later generations, they're not doing it because of this particular incident, necessarily. No, there's going to be some other things that he does as well, but certainly his triumph is seen as a display of vanity, so it is lacking in moderatio, one of the famous Roman qualities, precisely we're supposed to have arrogant, Dr Rad 36:49 arrogant. Who does he think he is? Well, Dr G 36:53 exactly, yeah. And there seems to be also a problem of a forgotten vow to the gods. Dr Rad 37:00 Oh, yes, okay, we'll get to that in a moment. Please do Romulus is the only figure, time wise, who's mentioned as having a triumph like this with the four white horses before Camillus. That means that, theoretically, if we're accepting when Romulus apparently reigned. That means it's literally been hundreds of years, and then Camillus is doing this. Now, I will of course, mention that the sources that mention Romulus having a triumph like this are written in the Augustan time period, and after so talking about papius of it, and then Daya, who's much, much later. So it's very hard to know it's a chicken and the egg situation. Where did this come from? Was it mentioned for Romulus first and then was attached to Camillus? Or was it mentioned for Camillus and then attached to Romulus? Who knows? But certainly it's interesting that those two figures are attached to this particular story. But as the other thing we can sort of break down is the way that the triumph is sort of playing out, where it's got these different aspects to it. And again, I'm going to draw an Ogilvie, if I might, to tell you about them. So first off, there is maximum imperatorum. Sounds like a Harry Potter spell, but it's not. This is where a victorious general is hailed as Imperator, and he basically can hang on to this until he's back in the city first historically seen in the case of Scipio Africanus in 209. BCE, okay, so we might have a little bit of retrojection here as well, potentially. Yeah. Then there's the grates dis agentium, the victory. And this is where the Senate gets the choice of whether they say, you know, let's have a day of public Thanksgiving. Let's do supplications. Let's make sure that we're giving thanks in the temple. Everybody, don't be ungrateful. And then, of course, we have the official supplicationes. I'm going to say, supplicationes, yes. Now apparently, the next time, we have four days of supplications, 203, and 197, so whether it's really a thing at this point in time, hard to say, we then have the adventus. Now this is not a technical part of, you know, a general coming into the city, but it's when he arrives, and everyone's like, Oh my god, I just want to like fan girl every because they just like, so amazing right now. And then there is the Triumph itself. You can have all the other parts without necessarily also having a triumph attached. So I just thought it was interesting to sort of note that that breakdown there Dr G 39:43 is like also like these gradations of honor that you can go through, because you can go through a whole bunch of things, and the Senate might still decline the actual triumph. It is a senatorial decision about whether a triumph goes ahead or not. And. This is why their role as an advisory body is also feels like a little bit of a fur fee, because if they say no to a triumph, you're supposed to accept that as a victorious commander and not go ahead with your triumph, even though you might think that you're entitled to one, and there can be good reason for believing that you're entitled to one things that enable you to have a triumph. You've got to have certain criteria in place. You have to be somebody who is in possession of full Imperium. So you have to be a top tier military commander for this period of time, and in this particular year, that means you're either a military Tribune with consular power or you're the dictator. They're the only two roles that would allow it. You have to have killed a minimum number of enemies, and that minimum is set at about 5000 according to Valerius Maximus. So it's a lot. Dr Rad 40:59 So we're really applauding murderers. Basically, Dr G 41:04 welcome to Ancient Rome. Is the music Dr Rad 41:07 as they march down, going secular. Dr G 41:16 Probably it would make sense. They've got those one note trumpets. They're going for it. And it's at that point, if you fulfilled those criteria, it's not a civil war situation. It is foreign enemies killed. It's full Imperium. And it's then the agreement of the Senate that those things have come together in the right order, that the Triumph can go ahead, and the triumph itself has what we believe to be an Etruscan history anyway. So this is where the Romans and the Etruscans are all kind of mixed up in this sort of cultural ocean of sharing, because Dr Rad 41:54 makes it even more ridiculous that we had to go through 10 years to get to this point. Dr G 41:59 I went and took an Etruscan city just so I could have an Etruscan celebration, Dr Rad 42:05 also because I wanted Juno to leave you for me. Dr G 42:10 Yeah, it's like two boys fighting over a girl. Yeah. So the triumphator, the person celebrating their triumph will don a nice, really, very special purple robe. We know the purple robes are quintessential Etruscan things. They get them from the Phoenicians because the Etruscans are a trading people. There is the very special triumphal chariot. And I wish I now knew more about it, or had done more reading on it, about this horse controversy, Dr Rad 42:37 the quadriga. Yes, yeah, Dr G 42:41 clearly, four horses is the way to go. But which four horses choose your colors wisely, the four Dr Rad 42:46 horses of the Apocalypse, please. Dr G 42:48 What a triumph. There is a golden crown that's part of this, which is known as the Corona Etrusca. So it doesn't get any more Etruscan than that. My God, honestly, the roof, they can't help themselves, and the person celebrating the tribe also gets to carry an ivory spectre. So that's pretty cool. Do Dr Rad 43:11 you mean an ivory sceptre? Yes, yes, an ivory sceptre, not a not a spectre, not a ghost. Carry this didn't look like Jupiter. Dr G 43:25 Thank you for that important correction. I got carried away by the triumph. On Dr Rad 43:30 the other hand, a specter would be ivory, if Casper is correct. Dr G 43:35 I mean, I assume so. Yeah. So the whole triumph thing anyway, has this really Etruscan undercurrent to it anyway, and there seems to be this nice interweaving of Latin rituals into this as well. The idea that you move on foot from a certain point you get off that chariot. Doesn't matter what the horses are. You gotta hop off it at some point and walk up to the capital line. That is important. That's the last phase. Everybody watches. You do a little bit on foot. Interesting. And the idea seems to be that, from the Roman perspective, this is all something that's coming through, through the connection to those Etruscan kings, we get that middle to late period of Etruscan influence in the Roman monarchical period. Dr Rad 44:26 Indeed. Well, that makes sense, because Dr G The next thing that Camilla says, this is when he officially can go about his business with the temple. So we've mentioned these previously, Queen Juno established on the Aventine, and then a temple to mata matuta is set up in the forum boarian, which you mentioned previously, mahamatuta being a deity that does have an interesting connection to Servius Tullius. So going back to that monarchical period, and we do, of course, have archeological remains which have been identified with this temple. So again, little bit. Bit of perhaps confirmed detail there of what's actually going on, and now Camillus is able to rest easy. His deed is done. He no longer has to be dictator. Now, a little detail I'm going to add here, dr, G, which is interesting, obviously I mentioned previously when we were talking about Camillus. It's not that he wasn't necessarily a historical figure, but certainly it is believed that some of the stories that have sprung up around him might be, dare I say it, legendary. What way now Mater Matuta is a Roman goddess of the dawn, and apparently, if you look at Camillus whole career, he does win a lot of his battles at dawn. He also makes a vow to Apollo, which we're going to get back to in a second. And then, of course, we have this idea of him getting bit too uppity and acting like the Sun God with his triumph. So there are all these interesting connections between Camillus. In fact, some scholars have gone so far. Although I'm not saying I necessarily believe this. I'm just mentioning it as to say that Camillus actually wasn't a historical person, but rather a mythical figure who became attached to the story of a and a couple of other events, obviously, in Roman history that we've yet to talk about and was turned into a human goodness Dr G 46:29 me, okay, well, somebody will need to have a chat with Plutarch. Plutarch is doing his very level best to make a human story out of this situation. Dr Rad 46:43 I like to think he's a human he's a real boy. Dr, G, a real boy. Dr G 46:47 He's not made of wood at all. So the thing about Plutarch is that the life of Camillus is part of a pair. And yeah, Plutarch is writing this whole series called The parallel lives. That's what he calls it. That's what we call it, and it's a good time to be had. We know we're not getting straight up history necessarily. We already are well aware from the genre of writing and the way that he structures this work, that he's very interested in drawing moral comparisons between Greeks and Romans. So you've usually got a Greek and a Roman compared. And what's usually quite nice about this is that there is a bit of a Prologue setting up the pairing, and then there's a bit of a comparative Epilogue to sort of make hit home all of the sort of parallels that he's been striving towards over the course of both of the lives. Dr Rad 47:47 Well, children, what have we learned? Dr G 47:50 Exactly so the level of the didactic approach is very close to the surface with Plutarch Now, what's interesting in this particular case is that the parallel life is the life of Themistocles. Okay, mm, and Themistocles is this very famous Athenian general who does some great stuff fending off the Persians. And then things take a bit of a turn for Themistocles, and he ends up with the Persians, the complexities of which I won't get into here, but it's it's a tough time for to be a Themistocles. And he is sort of labeled as this really ambitious, maybe overweening in his ambition, and it leads him to make some poor decisions. And Camillus, by comparison, seems to come off as a bit more of a moderate. He's ambitious for Rome, yes, not for himself necessarily. Dr Rad 48:53 Yeah. I definitely think he's very heroic and Livy, yeah, yeah. Dr G 48:57 It does mean that some of the things that happen to Camillus are a little bit more hilarious as a result, because if he's doing it for Rome, he might have done a better job being Dr Rad 49:06 being a hero. I don't mean it in the sense that, yeah, he's completely perfect. He definitely makes some big missteps, and he pays for it, but certainly on the whole, I think Livy's a fan Dr G 49:16 look, and he's in a great position right now. He's just done a wondrous deed in finally breaking the siege of Fae. Indeed, Romans could not be happier about that, although they're a tad upset about the horses. You know, it's all about balance. Dr Rad 49:32 I mean, it's a bit of much. Dr G 49:36 I know it was a 10 year siege, but white horses, really, Dr Rad 49:39 that's the way it's gonna be, little darling. You go riding on the horses, yeah, yeah, okay, that's enough of Daryl Braithwaite for Americans. You probably have no idea what that song is, but I'm hoping Daryl Braithwaite made a breakthrough in America, and you do actually recognize that song. You do need to look. Up this song. So the lives have this comparative aspect. It's usually pretty explicit. What we lack with the comparison of Themistocles with Camillus is both the Prologue and the Epilogue comparison. Ah, you're kidding. All of the juicy details seem to be missing. Unbelievable. Yeah, so apologies in advance. We're going to have to extrapolate directly from Plutarch without him didactically telling us exactly what he wanted us to get out of this life. And I'll attempt that as we go along. Okay, all right. Dr, G the final episode that Livy mentions. It's a small detail, but an important one, before we're into 395, BCE, and that is the moment that you have been waiting for, which was the gift to Apollo. Yes. Now remember that Camillus had pledged a 10th of the booty to Apollo, if he'd, you know, done them a solid, which he had, as it turned out. Now, the priests, pontiffs, I should perhaps say, decided that the people had to be the ones to carry this out. So to go back to the previous episode, we'd had this debate between Licinius and Appius Claudius and Licinius had seemingly carried the day in the sense that he said, Look, if people want to go and rock up to they and take what they can carry. They should be like to do that. They'll feel really personal, passionate about it. It'll be great, you know? And then, of course, we had the slight snarkiness over the booty being given into the state treasury at this point. So there's been some issues. But when the priests make this decision, this means that for the people that had gone to Veii and taken some booty, they would have to now bring some of it back. Oh yeah, cool guys. No, definitely not cool. Yeah. So after much debate about exactly how they were going to tell the people about this, they decide on a plan that they think will upset the people the least, which is they say, look, anyone who wants to make sure that they are fulfilling a promise that had been made to the gods and make sure that 1/10 is donated to the state treasury, well, I mean, obviously that's a good deed done. You're making sure the gods are on side Rome's looked out for. And you know, we're definitely going to use whatever you turn over. We'll use the money to turn it into a really beautiful gift for Apollo. Thank you so very much. That is something that will become, I think, very important for us to talk about at a bit of a later date. Dr G 52:36 Yeah, so this idea of the 10th part needs to be returned. It seems to have gotten very confusing, because apparently, Camillus had made a vow before setting out on this mission, that they would dedicate a 10th of the booty to the Delphian God, which is another way of describing Apollo. Sure. So that's that's a big deal, because Apollo isn't even in Italy. The Delphi had gods in Delhi. Dr Rad 53:04 Well, I mean, but he, but the Delphic Oracle had obviously told them very important details which were key to their victory. Dr, G, exactly. So they consulted the Delphic Oracle about this Alban Lake situation, and the Delphic oracle was like, yeah, that's, that's a real omen. You should definitely do something about Dr G 53:19 that. Like this battle Dr Rad 53:21 lakes don't just rise, people. Dr G 53:24 That's right, if you don't pull out the plug, that thing's gonna overflow. It's gonna be a problem. You know, get onto it. Guys drain the lake. They had listened to the Delphic Oracle, done the business that was required. It had been a turning point, apparently, in the siege, and now it was time to give a gift of some kind. And Camillus said, said that they would definitely consecrate a 10th of the booty to Apollo so big call. He claims to have forgotten that vow at some point, accidentally. So he admits this much later on, not during the time period, but does confess that he had forgotten about this vow. How he had managed to forget this vow is anybody's guess, particularly if, as a literary trope of a figure, that he might be some sort of divine solar entity, I Dr Rad 54:24 know, right, looking out for your bro Apollo. Yeah, this is a very human failing for Camillus to have. Nevertheless, this puts everybody into a state of shock, because everybody has picked up their plunder and they've started to enjoy it. So that means they're spending it, they're melting it down. They're trading it with other people. Nobody's really quite sure what a 10th of anybody's plunder looks like at this point. So everybody's a little bit in uproar, and Camillus not being certain that he wants to accept this as part of his problem as dictator. Later decides to refer that matter to the Senate being like, you guys make a decision about that, and this is when the priests become involved, and they say the gods are going to be angry if you don't fulfill this vow. And that means everybody needs to get on board with finding a 10th and bringing it along so we can make a really beautiful bowl for Apollo. That's what we're going to do with it. Guys bring us the metal. We'll melt it down, and it's going to we'll turn it into a very elegant and stylish Golden Bowl. Nobody's happy about that. There was much complaint and others like, how big is that bowl gonna be for Apollo, yeah. Is it gonna be gigantic? Because there's a lot of beauties, if you had apparently, Yeah, Dr G 55:46 nobody's ever seen so much beauty in all of their lives. And it's gonna be the largest bowl possible. That seems to be where Plutarch is heading. And I don't want to necessarily go into further detail, because I feel like that might be tipping us into the next year, by the sounds of it, yes, Dr Rad 56:01 Camillus is going to be an ongoing issue for Rome. Love him and hate him, as they do. We will pause there. The only detail that I have left to tell you is to completely switch our focus, which is what Livy loves to do, particularly at the end. The Volscians and the Aequians, whilst all of this is going on, have decided this is their moment to dispatch some envoys and ask for peace with Rome. Because, lest we forget, with all this talk of a apparently, the Romans were also waging war with several other peoples at this point in time. That Dr G 56:32 does explain why they have six military tribunes with consular power they are. They are facing it from every direction. Dr Rad 56:38 They are now, the Romans agree, but only because they want to, and they are sick to death of war, not because the Volscians and the Aequians actually deserve war. They deserve so much war. Dr, G, those rapscallions Dr G 56:55 look it's an interesting moment in time for these two, because it's not like the Aequians and the Volscians necessarily always offer peace. So I wonder what's been going on that we haven't heard about over the course of this year, indeed, Dr Rad 57:09 but that is, unfortunately, all the detail that Livy gives me. Dr G, which means that it is time for the partial pick. You. Okay, I feel exhausted by 396 Tell me. Dr, G, what is the partial pick and how are we going to use it to rate Rome the Dr G 57:55 partial pick. So the Romans, we measure them against some criteria that we think the Romans would approve of. Each category is worth 10 golden Roman Eagles, and that means that it is possible for Rome to achieve a perfect score of 50 Golden Eagles if they outdo themselves in every category. So our first one is military clout. Dr Rad 58:21 Now this is tricky, because technically, they have conquered they in this year, but not in this episode. It's already Dr G 58:29 happened. That's true, and I think we gave them lots of points for it last time. So there's been no military no additional military conquests that I'm aware of. But Dr Rad 58:39 there is the peace with Volscians and the Aequians just sneaking in there. Dr G 58:40 Oh, yes, but we can't assume from that anything about the military, if we haven't been told anything, yeah, it's definitely not military conquest, that's for sure. No, despite the stunning fallout of their victory of a I think it's a zero for this year's for this particular episodes. Yes, iteration, Dr Rad 59:02 okay. Zero, no additional conquest, lazy, no additional Dr G 59:07 pick yourselves up. Roman, get with the program. The second category is diplomacy, and I think this might be where we might be able to say something about the Aequians and the Volscii. Yes, Dr Rad 59:18 even though the Romans would very much like to continue waging war. They at least recognize that maybe now is not the time. Yes, Dr G 59:27 and they didn't offer peace, but they accept the peace offer. So that's okay. I think that's like a three or four. Yeah, Dr Rad 59:36 let's give them a three. It seems very, you know, thrown away there by Livy at the end there, they Dr G 59:41 certainly don't take the initiative. So no, I don't want to give them too much credit expansion. Dr Rad 59:47 Well, I feel like they kind of has to count again for this one, does it? Well, yeah. I mean, it's very significant, as we talked about last time. It's perhaps more than doubling the territory that Rome has, maybe increasing it in. By up to 60% Dr G 1:00:01 okay, but we gave them points for that last time, and it's not like they've expanded into it again, Dr Rad 1:00:10 like Appius Claudius with your logic Dr G 1:00:12 like a steel trap. Virtus, Dr Rad 1:00:16 hmm, tricky one, this one, but I feel like no Camillus is definitely doing some stuff, but I feel like it's not what the Romans consider to be virtus. It's Dr G 1:00:28 really interesting, because I feel like a triumph, on some levels, is like the ultimate expression of weird to us. But then he does this thing with the horses, and everybody's a little bit upset about how much weird to us he does it with. Dr Rad 1:00:40 I know that's what I mean. Like Livy actually says, In translation, of course, that his triumph was more brilliant than popular meaning. I think it was dazzling to watch, but everyone was really cranky while they did it Dr G 1:00:52 amazing. So in some respects, I feel like this puts us at an interesting point of conflict when it comes to this idea of weirdos. So weird to us, this old fashioned Roman sense of manliness is really bound up in physical displays, the celebration of masculinity, and in that sense, a triumph is like the ultimate expression of Roman masculinity. It doesn't get much better than that, but because the people are upset about how he does it, I think we have to take some points potentially off what he could have got if this was something that everybody was really happy about, yes, Dr Rad 1:01:32 and certainly the people are happy to see him. I mean, that's part of the account that we get, you know, people rushing up to acclaim him. It's not like everybody's against, yeah, Dr G 1:01:42 it's only when he does the weird white horse thing. Is Dr Rad 1:01:45 it weird? Dr, G, is it? Dr G 1:01:47 Well, I mean, what's a normal horse to you? All right, so I guess a brown one, I don't know. Should we say, like a seven? All right. Final category is the citizen score. Dr Rad 1:02:00 Oh, such a roller coaster. I think for the citizens this year, they were happy in the previous episode to go and get stuff from Veii this year, not happy that all the proceeds from the slaves has gone into the state treasury. So it's kind of, they've kind of got a little bit of both, you know, they've got a share of, you know, some of the takings of a but they haven't got everything handed to them and they're upset about it. I think this tyre thing is going to be a real problem as well. But no more war. No more Dr G 1:02:28 war for now, definitely, there's peace with the neighbors. That's that's important. That's a plus. I think having to return some of the booty is a bit of a negative, because you would like people to be upfront with you about that. You'd rather get taxed before you get your pay rather than after you get your pay. This Dr Rad 1:02:45 is very true. I'd be very upset if my employer did that. Were they like, Here's your money? Oh, well, sorry. Sorry, not Dr G 1:02:54 that they don't do that anyway, but they use other mechanisms. Uh, watch out for taxation, my friends, it's a problem. So it is both a good time to be a Roman citizen, but also maybe an annoying time to be a Roman citizen. So I think I'm giving them, I'd be inclined to give it about a five, because it's like they're not in the most danger that they've ever been in. They've had a military success. There's peace and with some other really particular neighboring figures. Celebrations are happening. Celebrations are happening. Everyone likes to try out fix that for the horsey business. And then it's the 10% tax on the stuff that you already took, where you're like, Excuse me. And then also the things in the treasury where they're like, Oh, well, that's a bit rude. I Dr Rad 1:03:42 think Livy's trying to pay. To paint them to be a little bit ungrateful, a little bit unreasonable, but yes, I take your point. All right. I think so. Is it a five? Do you think like a five? I think I think a five, okay, which means Dr, G, we end up with a very even 15 golden eagles, which, if you add it together with what we had last time and the time before, that is actually a pretty spectacular score for one year. What's Dr G 1:04:09 the total score? Because there were like 30 something last time. Look, I Dr Rad 1:04:13 can't remember precisely, but I think we'd be in the 40s, for sure, if not at 50, to be honest. Wow. So 396, the year that had everything. Dr G 1:04:23 It's very exciting. Well, there you have it. Dear listeners, 396 BCE, what a time. I know I can't imagine that 395 is gonna be able to top it. Well, we can only find out by going there together. Indeed, I'll Dr Rad 1:04:39 see you next time. Dr, G you thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by bettine. Joy De Guzman, you too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon or buy us a coffee on Ko-Fi. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. Today, we would like to say Wilkommen Bienvenue, Welcome to our latest Patreons, Rachel Tom, Jonathan and the Sun Eater. Thank you so much for being part of our partial band. However, if you're feeling the pinch of an empire wide economic crisis, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. And if you're looking for something cheerful and Roman to read, you can grab yourself a copy of our latest book, Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire. Until next time we are yours in ancient Rome. Transcribed by https://otter.ai