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Talking with Guy about female CSA and therapy | Fireside Chat 262 · Honey Badger Radio

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome to Honey Badger Radio. My name
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: is Brian and this is the fireside Chat. Sorry about
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: the late start. Had some issues with you know sound,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: as you know really quick. I have a new machine.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: It's extremely powerful, but that means that all of the
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: work that I did on my old machine I have
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: to do over. And you don't want to, like know
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: the grizzly details of exactly how much was involved with
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: getting that set up, but I'm having to go through
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: it again. You know, I got to do the twelve
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: trials of Hercules to get this working, and even now
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: it's just working for now. Like this isn't like the
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: final bill as it were. This is a haphazardly thrown together.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the show, Guy Jackson.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: Thanks bro, Yeah yeah, thanks for coming on.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: This is a little bit different from how we normally
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: do things.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: Usually I reach out to someone and I asked them
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: to come on, But you reached out to me in
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: this case.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: So tell us tell us a little bit about you
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: know who you are and what's your connection with men's
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: issues and stuff.
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: I mean, I've always been sort of, well say always
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: the past ten years or so, I've been involved in
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: the men's rights movement in some capacity. Yeah, just advocating
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: for things, trying to do, trying to do what I can.
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: Really.
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: I wrote an article for AVFM and about when I
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: got started. Also in real life sometimes I'll do things
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: like one of the main things I tried to do
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: is convincing people not to circumcise their children, because that's
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: a huge, huge issue for me. That's one of the big, big,
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: big things. Is because there's a lot of Muslims around
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: where I used to live as well, and because in
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: England it's not common thing. It's pretty much just Muslims
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: that circumcised their children, and yeah, like so I'll try
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: and start a conversation with them about it and explain
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: why not to do it, with very limited success obviously,
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: but with religious people. But yeah, like I've managed to
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: change a few minds.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: So yeah, so you're your would you say that male general,
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: male genital mutilation is your like?
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: Is that your prime? You know, like everyone's got like
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: their main men's issue is that like yours?
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: I'd say the most important is children getting father's rights
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: and men getting custody with their children. To me, that's
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: the most important. But it's a close second. And then well,
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: the reason I'm coming on today is to talk about
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: sexual violence against men, and that is also a really
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: huge one for me too.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but when you messaged me about it, you said
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: that you wanted to talk about it, so I guess, like, yes,
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: my first question is what what do you want to
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: bring up?
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: And you you also said, well, we can get into
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: that later.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: But there was something about some some blind spots or
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: criticisms you have of what we do here.
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I wouldn't say necessarily criticism. I just feel like
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: there's may be a few little pieces of the puzzle
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: that are missing. It's, yeah, because with male and female relationship,
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: it's so complicated and there are so many factors.
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: It's a hard it's a hard thing to catch everything.
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: I think there's maybe a few areas where that you
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: guys might be missing. But yeah, the main, the main
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: reason I wanted to come on is to sort of
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: speak about my experience with sexual violence. And yeah, because
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: I don't think I've ever seen a man that's been
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: victimized by a woman openly speak out, you know, full identity,
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: out there, face out there and actually open. And there's
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: so many victims that we've all seen the stats, but
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: just so many like I've never seen it, and I
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: feel like it would be a good thing to do
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: to come out and openly speak about my experience and
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: at least show other men that even I'm saying I
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: expected the men to do this kind of thing, but
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: just going to maybe talk to a friend about it,
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: or because I know there's a hell of a lot
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: of shame, a hell of a lot of shame, and
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: a lot of men are just to they just do
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: not want to speak to anybody about it. And even
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: if it's reaching out to a friend to speak to
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: them about it, or reaching out for therapy or something
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: like that, even if I can encourage one or two
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: men to do that, that would be fantastic for me.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, all right, Well, then why don't you tell
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: us a little bit about your experience, like what you're
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: willing to share at least so sure.
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: So, when I was a child, I'd say around about
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: nine or ten, I was I was sexually abused by
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: someone really respected. They would have been around about seventeen
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: eighteen at the time, and they basically got me on
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: my own, got me to do certain things with them,
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: try and then tried to have sex with me. And
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: I was a kid. I don't think I even ever
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: had an erection at that point. You know, I had
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: no idea what was going on. She got me to
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: touch her, touch her down there, and then tried to
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: push She was really aggressive and she was almost it
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: almost felt like she was angry with me that I
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: didn't know what to do. She sort of pushed me
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: down onto the toilet and tried to mount me, and
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: I was just terrified.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: Was like a relative or relative, Okay, someone I really
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: looked at.
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: I thought she was so cool. I really looked up
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: to her.
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And it messed me up because I think going
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: after that experience, going going through the rest of sort
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: of going through growing up and stuff, it's not really
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: it's not really something that was widely talked about when
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: I was a kid. It's a bit different now, but
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: I just had no context to place it in. You know, women,
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: you know, there's no real knowledge of women can be
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: to do damage to boys and do damage to men.
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: So yeah, like the only narrative you do here that
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: is that male sexuality is the is the dangerous sexuality.
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: So it was hard to process it and have any
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: kind of contexts to put it in. So I just
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: sort of I almost just tried to brush it off,
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: and when I was getting older, to try and brush
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: it off and just pretend like it didn't happen. And
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: sort of what I tell myself is that it was
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: only a woman that did it to me, so you know,
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: at least I didn't get abused by a guy. Just
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: sort of trying and minimize it. Really, I know, funnily enough,
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: what really what really helped me realize how much it
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: had screwed me up was coming into contact with the
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: Men's movement and hearing them talk about it. That's why
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: I encouraged me to go and go and get help.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: So you're saying that you didn't even know that it
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: was something that could happen to boys until you heard
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: it talked about by people in the men's movements.
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: Well, I wouldn't say that, like.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Maybe your experience you've sort of like treated it like.
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: I wouldn't necessarily say. What I'd say is growing up.
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: It would have been a lot older when I'd come
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: into what i'd even ever heard of that happening to
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: a boy. And you know, by that point I've already
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: you know I've already my mind's already put it into
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: whatever context it's put it into. And yeah, like I've not,
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: I've just not really, I've just called you know. It
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: caused a lot of things, had a lot of anger
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: issues sexuality wise as well. Like I was very I
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: always felt guilty for wanting sex and when I was
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: having sex, I think a big the one thing that
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: really fucked me up was was the narrative around my sexuality. No,
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: when you've experienced something like that and then you've been
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: told your sexuality is the one that's dangerous and harmful,
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: I think that really really put a lot of shame
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: on a further shame on top of sex for me.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: So yeah, like, well.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: That's the point is to make you feel ashamed of
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: what you are as a man. I mean, he's in
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: my opinion, in part at least. Yeah, did any anyone else, like,
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: did you ever like go to anyone about this or
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: was there any ever any consequences of any kind to
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: the person who did this to you?
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: No consequences, I don't. I actually I didn't report. I
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: didn't make any kind of report about it until I
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: was like a long time afterwards. So I wouldn't expect
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: there to be consequences.
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but so what was it? What was the other
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: thing you asked me? What was that?
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: What I'm That's what I'm wondering, is that what if
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: there was anything that ever happened to that person?
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: How long has it been? How old are you now?
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: Out of curiosity and now I'm forty you so it'd
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: have been about that that would have been about thirty
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: years ago.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so like thirty years ago.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: And of that person who is probably like almost fifty
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: at this point, So do you have did you ever
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: like this was someone you were close to and they
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: were older than you. Was a woman, right, and or
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: I was at least like a young adult at the
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: time now her own woman, and what the other part
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: of my question was if you obviously even if you
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: did fellow report at this point it wouldn't really matter.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: But my question is, did anyone else in the you know,
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: family or in the community learn about this and was
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: there or were there any sort of like consequences or
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: whatever came out of this, Like do you still talk
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: about so?
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Like the only person I told up until, like
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: I said, coming into contact with the Men's Movement was
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: my girlfriend. I just I minimized it at the time,
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: and I don't really remember what she said, to be honest,
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: But it's not something that was made a huge deal of.
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: It was just the conversation what happened. And I mean,
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: I'm sure she would have been supportive, but I don't
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: really remember the conversation and not other than that up
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: until coming into contact with the men, I didn't tell
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: a soul. After I realized the damage and I needed help,
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: then I told a few people. I told a few people,
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: I told my mom, told my family members. My sister
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: actually used it against me because she's a s gunbag.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait Okay.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: First of all, isn't it interesting that you don't remember
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: how the conversation went with your girlfriend, Like I mean,
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: like like maybe you did something like you know, mentally
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: you blocked it out or something. I mean, I think
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: it's it's just because this is not like a small thing.
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: I think I think it's a little from Colin Mann,
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: a little from Colum b Here. I think I've I've
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: not got the best memory of what of what happened
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: when I told her, and I do think and and
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: also that she didn't. I mean, like if a woman
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: that I was seeing told me that, for instance, she
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: remember my reaction because it wouldn't just be a one
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: time conversation and and you know, meanly not doing or
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: saying anything else to support her.
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: So so yeah, yeah, I doy.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Thing is it's part And why did you do you
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: mean by your sister use it against you?
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: Oh she's just an absolutely awful person. Like she actually
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: phoned my cousin because she found out I was reporting it.
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: She phoned my cousin told her and took her side
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: and just kept making jokes to people about it.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: So this person was your cousin that did this to you?
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah I didn't want to Yeah, well you did.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, no that's fair.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, look, it's better than that than like, yeah,
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: I guess, but it's still not good.
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: Well yeah, she actually even made jokes about it in
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: front of my I few it'd have been about six
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: or seven at the time, made jokes about it with
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: my nephew. Like she's just a really awful person. I'm
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: low contact with most of my family now anyway. So yeah, yeah,
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: because my mom wasn't exactly amazing about it either.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: So what Okay, so this sounds like I mean, it's
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: obviously bad, but what's really bad is that you have
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: people that you really trust, like your family.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: And they don't appear to be taking it as seriously
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: as they should.
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think they're the best simple size
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: for that though, Like I said.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but like your mother and your sister, like they're
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: kind of close. I mean, I don't I'm not saying
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: your mom threw you under the bus. I don't know,
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: but like you would think that they would want to,
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: like they would treat your desire to protect their children
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: like at the highest priority, right, and you know siblings.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's it's not it's not fun.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: Like I don't think that this is I think it's
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: monstrous that the way that they reacted.
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: You know, my brother, I've only complained about the negative.
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: My brother was fantastic, Like funnily enough, Well, I disclosed
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: two things. I haven't gotten on to the next thing next,
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: my next experiences yet, but yeah, yeah, yeah, I did. Well,
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: there's a few more, but I disclosed to my brother,
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: and like a lot of people, this wouldn't be the
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: best thing. Decides with a lot of people advocating for this,
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: but he just pointed at me and said, ah, you
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: got sexually abuse, like just like And it just made
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: me feel a lot better because I knew he's still
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: gonna be my brother. You know, he's not gonna he's
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: not gonna treat me like some you know some what's
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: the expression I'm looking for? Some like, He's not gonna
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: treat me like I'm made of glass. And then after
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: that he was great and we and we talked about
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: it and he was really supportive. But it just made
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: me feel a lot because that's one of the I
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: think one of the biggest pears of a lot of
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: men that everyone's gonna just look at them like, you know,
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: like look at them like a victim and treat them
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: like they're made of glass.
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: And I did not want that made me feel.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: Shrinking, I think, is what you were gonna You were
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: trying to.
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: Say, yeah, yeah, yeah, But I feel that that's that's
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: the best expression, like just treating being treated like you're
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: made of being treated like you're made of glass.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: So your brother was very supportive. Is he like an
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: older brother or a younger brother younger okay, and your
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: sister is older or.
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: Younger, younger. I'm the oldest of myne oh you're the oldest.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Okay, all right, So.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: I think that if this happened to you at ten
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: that and it wasn't it wasn't completed or what were
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: you raped or were you.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: Was it just like something that came close?
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: Do you remember we didn't have sex, that's for sure,
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: Like I said, I was, I wasn't.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: Even Yeah you know what an direction was, So there was,
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: but there was the least sexual abuse.
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: You just don't Yeah, she didn't go if you go,
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: I don't mind going into detail. I'm just not sure
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: how graphic you want me to be.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: No, No, it's okay, you don't have to. I just
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: wanted to get an idea of how far along how
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: far this this girl got, you know, before it stopped
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: and whatever stopped it? Like did you just push her off?
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: Like how did it? Do you remember that?
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: I honestly don't remember how it stopped. I just remember
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: she got angry with me. I think she got pissed
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: off and stopped it. But yeah, like what happened if
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: like after, I don't really remember.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, see that's another thing that you know. I mean,
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: you might just have because I have a bad memory too,
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: But you may have blocked it out. And I'm not
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: saying that.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to try to tell you what happened obviously,
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: but you would think that that would stick to someone,
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: I think I think I blocked it out, to be honest,
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: because I normally do have a good memory. So yeah,
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: like that's the next pine. I mean I can still remember,
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: I can still remember things from when I was a toddler, right,
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: You're pretty sure I would have blocked it out.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And uh, then there was you said there was
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: another experience after this, Well, there.
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: Was actually a few.
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: I mean I got regularly sexually assaulted in school for
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: a period of about a couple of months by a girl.
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: It wasn't she just constantly grabbed my ass because I
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: was obviously you know, being a victim of abuse, you
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: do sort of withdraw a lot. So I was a
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: very I wasn't confident in school, Like I bullied a lot,
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: and I used to have a place to go to
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: on break where there's a teacher there and a group
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: of people that got around and hang out, and she
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: just always used to hang on hang out on the
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: staircase that and every time i'd go past, she would
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: sexually assault me or she'd chase me grab my ass. Yeah,
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: like that wasn't that wasn't good.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: And you didn't like I mean, how old were you
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: when this was going on.
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: Would have been fourteen. She was in the year above me,
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: so she'd put two above me.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, when you're about fourteen, normally you would start
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: taking an interest in the opposite sex. And I think
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: that maybe did you know why she would do this?
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: Like what she was she attracted to you, and that
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: was just the way that she expressed it.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: Was she a bully and she you know, like, how
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: did it make you feel?
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: If I had to guess, she was just a high
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: school mean girl kind of thing, and she just got
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: off on the power of it, That's what If I
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: had to guess, that's what I'd say. Yeah, it made
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: me feel crap, obviously, I mean like I felt powerless
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: to do anything about it because she was one of
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: the popular she was. This is why, I mean, I
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: can't think of any of the motivation because I was
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: not a popular guy in school. She was probably the
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: most popular girl in her year, Like she was what
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: really conventionally attractive yeah, so I can't think of any
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: of the motivation. But yeah, like it certainly didn't help
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: with my with my issues. Let's just say that to
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: go through that, and then my next experience would have
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: been maybe maybe at fifteen and had my first kiss.
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: Really strange situation because I'd never met a celebrity before
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: and I was actually a celebrities house party. Oh really yeah, yeah,
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: like a really bizarre situation because she actually.
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: Hitting on me. But but I bought all. Dale was terrify.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: I was terrified. I never met a celebrity and I've
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: got a fem. She's famous in my country on a
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: on a televised soap.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: Oh what was her name? What's her name? Do you
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: know or do you not want to share it?
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: I know her first and her first name is Verity.
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: She was on a soap called Emma Dale.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: Emma Dale, Emma Dale.
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and is.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: It like one word, Emma Dale, like a place.
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: Eb m E R D A l e.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, Emmerdale. And what's the character's name or her name?
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: I mean character, I can't remember the character's name. The
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: woman's name is Verity, Verity v A r I T
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: y v E R it.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: Boyd Okay, Verity is a weird name.
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah yeah.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: Verity Rushworth British actress Okay, known for portraying the role
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: of Donna Windsor in the i t V soap opera
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: Emmerdale from nineteen ninety eighty two thousand and nine.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: All Right, I'm just curious. So you went to shed
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: party and you were there?
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: I ended up making out one of her friends, like
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: pretty intense makeout session. It's actually my first kiss and
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: the next and she wanted to take me outside and
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: I don't know what for, I can only guess, but
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: for some reason, I was really scared and I didn't
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: want to, yeah, probably because of my past experiences. And
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: the entire party tried to force me to go outside
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: with her, like they were literally I was fighting for
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: them not to push me through the door, and they
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: were all physically trying to force me through the door.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: You were like fifteen sixteen.
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I would have been fifteen at the time.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: And how old was this woman? Was she a lot
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: older than you at the time?
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, so I round about the same age.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: But yeah, it was just it was just not again,
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: not a good experience. For like the fact they were
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: all trying to force me to go out there and
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: do whatever with her. But yeah, that was so don't don't.
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: I don't know how to frame that situation other than
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: it was I mean, I don't. I'm not saying I
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: don't think necessarily anything criminal happened there, but it just
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: wasn't a positive experience that they were trying to force
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: me to go out there and go out there with her.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: So okay, so you said, because I just want to
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: like understand the details here, were you making out with
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: a girl who was a friend of this selection, Yeah,
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: at the party, you were just making out with her.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: You weren't Were you dating her before? Was she like
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: a girl?
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: No?
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was visiting my cousins, like in a city
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: quite far away, so I'd never even I didn't know
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: these people.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: All, uh huh.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: And you just and I mean, I mean that the
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: making out doesn't seem non consensual.
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: Oh no, no, no, it wasn't. It was just there
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: and you were like the experience.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: Of being trying to being trying trying of them trying
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: to force me to go outside with her to do
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: whatever she because she wanted to go outside me to do.
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: Something outside, like in public, into that back garden.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: So she so she wanted you to take it further
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: out in the back garden, and there was a bunch
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: of people pushing for this, like they wanted you to
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: do that.
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they saw that I didn't want to, and she
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: was trying to pressure me to go outside with her
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: to do and then they all just ganged up with
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: and tried to literally try to physically force me out
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: of the door to go with her.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: Okay, And you were not comfortable with that, so you.
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's not that's an understatement. I was.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: I was, Yeah, I was, you know, I just had
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: a real gut reaction of just just just being scared
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: and just fight felt like I was fighting for my
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: life try probably four or so people trying to push
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: me out of the door.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: So yeah, okay. And what ended up happening with that.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: No, nothing, I just it's really weird. I ended up
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: making out with one of the one of her other
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: friends at the pie and then and then that just
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: got just went home. It wasn't you know, they they
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: just they just gave up really after a bit, and
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: just that's normal.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: You don't seem to like struggle too much with hooking
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: up with girls, but you like it seems that way
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: based only maybe you were just lucky that night.
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: I don't know, I had a lucky night.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: I'm not bad with ladies, but I struggle more on
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: the other side of actually having interest And I think, yeah, yeah,
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: just just having interest in in any particular woman. And
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: I've never I'm not gone for casual sex either, like,
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: And that's one of the weird things, is you don't
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: know is this naturally how I am? Or is this
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: the result of the things that have happened to me?
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: And you just sort of have to make peace with that.
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: And I mean, I'm happy with who I am now,
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: but yeah, it's it's it's a weird it's a weird
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: thing not to not to know. Is this just how
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: how I would have been, not if that hadn't happened
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: to me. If that makes sense. Let me think here,
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: I can move on to the next experience. If this
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: was the final, This was the final, And this was
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: the one I actually really wanted to talk about because
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: I have heard I've heard men talk about childhood sexual abuse.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: This was actually me as an adult and being raped
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: by a woman, which is the one that really hasn't
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: talked about. I've never seen a man speak about this,
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: which is why I wanted to do it. So yeah,
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: basically I made some stupid mistakes getting into this situation.
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: I was dating this woman I brought, I let her
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: come back to my house. I had drinks with her,
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: even though it was very up front with her and said, look,
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: I don't want to you know, I don't jump into
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: sexual relationships. I don't want to have sex. I made
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: that very clear to her a few drinks deep, and
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: she was basically pressure trying to She she kept trying
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: to pressure me to have sex. She'd stop for a
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: bit and then try again, and this went on for
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: about three or so hours. Eventually, eventually I let her
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: go down on me, which I didn't mind too uh
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: so much like like I was kind of I was
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: kind of okay to do that. And then she started
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: pressuring me again to have sex, and I did, which
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: I still consider consensual even though you know she was
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: pressuring me, I still contented, so we got When she
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: started having sex with me, she was really aggressive, Like
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: she got on top of me, she was pinning my
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: arms down sort of biting my neck and just being
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: super aggressive, and I fucking hated it and I wanted to.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: I wanted to I told I told her to stop
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: two or three times. She didn't stop. I physically because
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: she because she was pinning my arms down. I physically
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: pushed back and tried and I pushed her a bit.
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: I guess maybe I was being gentle because she was
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: a woman at first, but I was I was putting
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: some force into it, like trying to get her off me,
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: and she just she just wouldn't. Like I said, I
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: must have z stop five or six times, pushed her
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: a bit, and then she just she reinserted force, pushed
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: me back down and just would not get off. And
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: I just at that point I just froze let it continue,
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: and so like eventually I came out of it and
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: just just flipped her over and got off.
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: But yeah, like it was not good.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So so what happened after you got her to start?
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: Kind of I curled up into the fetal position and
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: didn't get out of it for a while.
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: Like it was so was messed up.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: And then and then I guess she tried to comfort
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: me and we ended up after a while going to sleep.
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: But yeah, like it was that that really messed me up.
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: It was kind of the final there in the coffin
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: for me, and I was really after that. I was
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: in a really bad place for a long time and
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: again until I came into contact with the Men's Movement.
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: That was really a pivotal moment in my life, coming
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: into contact with with the Men's Movement?
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: How old were you when that happened?
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: And this is something I want to say. I'm I'm
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: a big I'm a big guy.
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: I can physically define myself like I'm six foot four strong,
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: I've trained in martial arts. So I don't want any
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: guys that have experiences to feel like it's some kind
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: of something shameful, something that's some kind of devastating blow
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: to your status as a man, or something you should
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: be ashamed of. It makes you weak somehow, like it doesn't,
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: you know, Like and I don't want guys to be
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: ashamed to speak out about it or like I said,
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: seek help becauld you.
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: Know, like it can happen to anyone.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, drugs or or you know, how to have a
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: weapon used anim or whatever. It doesn't make you or
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: even if you're you aren't strong enough to fight someone off.
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: It doesn't make you any less of a man, and
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: it's to be ashamed of course.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: So when you found the Men's Movement, I guess, like,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: how did that happen?
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: Like?
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: What even? How did you even find them?
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: On YouTube?
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: I got into what I think the first time I
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: got into watch was you remember the Amazing Atheist? Of course, yeah,
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: I watched a few of his videos, and then you
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: get sort of in the recommended I think I think
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: maybe the first person I came into contact, Oh.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, why were you watching the Amazing Atheists?
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: I can't even remember how I found.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: Was it just like the humor?
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: I guess, oh yeah, yeah, well, yeah, it would have
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: been the humor.
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: I think I was quite interested in the sort of
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: what was going on in America with atheism because I
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: think I was watching a bit of atheist experience at
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: the time that would have ended up my recommended feed.
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: And then I came and I came into contact with
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: I can't remember whether it was Karen first or whether
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: it was t ld R, but it was one of
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: the two.
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: But the one that really got me was Karen.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: Everybody, Yeah, yeah, everybody experience yea.
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: She her the Badgers, other people in the men and
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: they saved my life because I was was a hermit, depressed,
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: didn't leave my house and as much as possible, didn't
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: leave my house, didn't interact with people. Yeah, and they
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: saved my life. That was going through the process of
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: learning about the Men's movement and sort of learning not
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: to be ashamed of what happened to me, et cetera,
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: et cetera.
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: And it made it most.
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: It made me feel a lot better, and it motivated
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: me to write I can recognize this has damaged me,
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: and I need to go and I need to go
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: and seek help. I need to find some help for this,
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: because yeah, I don't I don't want to live like
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: this the rest of my life.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: And I guess someone or you wrote an article for AVFM,
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: so you got really involved.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean at first, like I was, you're
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: really angry and about everything you learn you've been lied to.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and just super motivated.
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm kind of embarrassed about the article, to
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: be honest, because it was kind of I did. I
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: didn't know anywhere near as much as I know now,
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: and it was it was quite juvenile, but quite a
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: juvenile article, but.
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I did. I did write them.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well when you say it was juvenile, what do
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: you mean like you just didn't know as much you were.
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, just juvenile as in sort of my development
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: of my views. It was in that in that sense,
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: it was it was juvenile, not like childish. But yeah, like,
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: do you an all incentive early on, in early on
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: in my learning experience about men's issues forming my worldview?
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, no, for sure. Do you So what is
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: it that you think you have learned about yourself as
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: a I guess like after you know everything that's happened
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: and then getting involved with the men's movement and then
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: sort of growing within that space, Like is there something
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: you've learned about your yourself that to help because like,
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: I think that one of the reasons why people get
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: involved with this is because they're well if if they
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: have an experience in their life or even like an
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: experience through someone else, that they're trying to understand something
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: about the world and themselves, like maybe something about you know,
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: like why am I this way kind of a thing?
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: Does that make sense?
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah? I mean I learned it. I could.
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: I could speak for hours about what I learned. I mean,
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: i'd say the most important lesson to get me out
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: of my funk was just there are other guys out
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: there that have experienced this. I'm not alone, I'm not
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: not some kind of freak, and I've got nothing to
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: be ashamed about. That was, i'd say the key thing
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: I'd learned when it comes to men's like the men's
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: issues and stuff, I'd always had like it, even maybe
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: from a very very early age, like a spike in
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: my mind almost that there's something got wrong.
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, kind of.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: This is one of the reasons I think that the
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: matrix knowledge is so good the Red Pill, because that's
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: a line from the Pilly had like he had something
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: in the back of his mind that you knew was wrong.
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: That's exactly how I felt.
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: Like.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: My earliest memory of having a gendered experience was like
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: probably three. I was very into reading, and my mum
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: handed me a book of rhymes, and the rhyme was
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: sugar and spice and everything nice. That's what little girls
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: are made of. Slugs and smells and puppy dog tails,
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: that's what little boys are made of. It, and it
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: really upset me, it really, I mean contextualizing that. Now
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: I can see why it would. You know, it's like
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: making you feel like there's something wrong with you based
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: on how you're born. But yeah, I was, I was
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: really upse I actually burst out crying when I read it,
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: like I was, like, it did impact me. So I
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: guess that was my first lesson in there's there's some
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: real serious gender bias in society. And then start growing up,
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: had teachers had what I can only presume was a
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: radical feminist teacher. She'd made a big show whenever we
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: all went outside for pece, she'd make a big show
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: of lining all the boys up on one side, all
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: the girls up on one side, and the girls get
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: to go first. And once there was some kind of
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: she was trying to discipline the class for something and
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: made us all stay behind, but she let the girls go,
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: made all the boys day. And I've always had a
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: real strong sense of fairness and justice, and that really
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: pissed me off at the time. I remember felt like
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: throwing a desk. But yeah, so so there's there's a
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: there's all sorts of little experiences like that that you
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: get growing up, getting older, sort of noticing by slapping
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: men on TV, or or just general abusive behavior like
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: not letting your man go out to his friends and
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: sort of controlling behavior. He's all just normalized on T
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: and that bugged the hell out of me. I remember
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: my girlfriend used time to shut the fuck up about it,
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: because I like, if I saw something like that, that's
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: really messed up. So even before coming into contact with Amendsment,
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: I had had a strong awareness that there was something wrong.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I was actually a feminist. I used to I
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: used to be a feminist.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: So I think that most people used to be feminists,
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: and a lot of them still have some of that,
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: that sort of like residu residue residual feminism, you know.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: But okay, so we got about thirteen minutes, so let's
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: get into your thoughts. I'm going to look at this
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: thing you sent me where you said let me see sure.
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: There was one thing I wanted to raise about the rape. Yeah, yeah,
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: one thing that really made it difficult because you remember
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: me saying that I had no very little context as
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: a child. As an adult experiencing that I had no
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: context because I didn't even know its possible for a
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: woman to.
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: Rape the man.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course that.
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: Made it very difficult because I just brushed that off
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: as a bad sexual experience and didn't even think. I
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: didn't even think about it, and I didn't actually even
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: realize what had happened to me until after I decided
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: to get help. You know, like they'll tell you sometimes
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: to write thought diary so before you get therapies or
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: just generally to help you. I did that, and yeah,
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: like writing it down, I realized what happened to me. Yeah,
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: just writing it down, I'm like, holy crap. Then I
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: had a right to contextualize it because I'd heard men
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: rights advocates speak about it and say that it's something
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: that happens. Only then did I did I realize what
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: happened to me. So I felt that was something important
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: to mention.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I was gonna mention too that it based
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: on your history. I think that that initial sexual assault
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: when you were ten years old, I think it essentially
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: colored or tainted all your experiences with women, at least
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: sexual ones after that. So when you because like when
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: that woman in that last experience she wanted to do
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: rough sex, you were very uncomfortable. And I think it
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: has something to do with what happened to you as
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: a child, and so this this, this is I mean,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: you know, different people have different tastes. A lot of
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: times women don't think that they they they're fed this
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: idea that men are more sexual than they are, so
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: when they become sexually aggressive, they expect men to like
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: give it back just as much or more, and when
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: not all men do because just like anybody else, we
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: have different things that we're into. Yeah, but but I
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: think that that assumption and of course we don't consider
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: female sexual aggression to be harmful at all.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: We think it's innocent, you know, in general.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: So I think that what happened to you as a
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: kid seems to have affected the way that you view
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: intimacy and everything that comes with that. And I want
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: to speak for you, but that's just what I get
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: based on your story.
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: No, No, of course, of course, it doesn't mean it
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: can't not kind of that's another thing you sort of
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: wonder about, like how would like expression my sexuality if
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: it didn't happen to me. But I'm like, I'm a domo,
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: and I think that's probably part of the reason why,
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: because I don't want to feel like I'm out of control.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you want to be in control right now.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: Actually, I actually do like just normal intimate sex too,
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: but it takes me longer to get to the point
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: where I would feel comfortable with that and letting go
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: of a bit of control before, before I'd feel comfortable
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: with that.
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: With being more, we're doing that basically.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So the other thing, maybe this is connected in
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: some way, but you also said in the message to
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: me that you might have some be able to give
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: some interesting insights and dating dynamics, as it seems like
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: something that is.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: A little overlooked by HBr.
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Kevin Samuels, So go.
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: Ahead, Yeah, I mean Kevin Samuels is just part of
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: one of the people have watched that have given me
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: a bit more, a bit more insight into dating because
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: when when I felt I feel.
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: Like there's probably i'd say there's four.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: Groups when it comes to an immense movement when it
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: comes to how they viewed dating. I feel like you
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: have the p uas who look at the current situation
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: and say, well, it's hard to find a good long
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: term mate. So I'm just gonna I've got resources, I'm
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: attractive to women, I'm just gonna have fun. Basically, you've
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: got the migtails, who I think these are all legitimate,
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: legitimate reactions to the current dating the current dating market.
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: You have MiG tals who just say, Okay, I'm out.
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: I'm not even going to interact with them at all
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: or on a very limited basis. You have traditionalists who
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: want to go back to you know, back to prefeminism
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: sort of social social norms. And then you have what
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: I would call sort of an equality based it should
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: be fifty to fifty, you know, men and women should
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: be equal. And I'd say that's sort of the tin
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: man approach to too men's rights of just I'd say
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: it's almost similar to it's kind of almost the opposite of, well,
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: the gender reverse version of feminism, where you just it's
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: a bit or what's the reddit group the sort of
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: left wing male advocates sort of approach to men's rights.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: I think it's just left I think that's that's the
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: riddic I think so.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: But I'll say it's also a lot of a lot
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: of prefeminists. So a lot of guys that were feminists
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: that come into androids and they still have that mentality
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: of you know, everything should be equal.
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: Not and they bring it into dating too.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: Like, yeah, they well see I was like that when
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: I started though, I was like, well, I'm an egalitarian,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: and the egalitarian sounds really nice and sophisticated, and you know,
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: it makes you feel smart. But then like the reality
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: is that men and women are not the same, and
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: like they'll never be the same, and there is like
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: there's not enough of a distinction between equality and equity
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: to where it's worth even going down that rabbit hole,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: and it's better to just like deal with the issues
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: with people as they are instead of like how you
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: would like them to be. But I think that with
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: the PUAs though, and then we can get into your
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: your other comments. I got about five minutes, so I
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: don't I'm sorry, maybe I can go a little bit
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: a little over as Okay, we can do this again.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: But the I think that with the p ways, it's
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: true that a lot of them are just like trying to, like,
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: you know, essentially use what they know about gender dynamics
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: to sleep with as many women as possible, or essentially
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: be able to play the world, play the field. But
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: the fact is, and I think the PUAs are aware
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: of this, They don't even call themselves pas anymore. That
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: really just like the the red pill now, but it's
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: the same thing, you know, the Rollos and the and
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: you know and all that and the fresh and fits
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: and the and that kind of thing. They I think
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: know that most men, even men who follow their content
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: and try to use their tools, either don't want to
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: be like, you know, sleeping around with whoever, and they
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: don't think they could because they're not in that top
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: one percentile of men that can do that. So they're
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: just trying to use the tools to find someone that
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: they can commit to. It's like, you know, well it
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: goes back. I think it's it was Rollo or one
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: of those guys that was basically talking about how you know,
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: essentially you you gain your woman you know, for ever.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: Basically, which is like to me, it's unsustainable, But I
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: mean it's like an idea that they put out there.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: So what I'm saying is a lot of the guys
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: that use the PUA stuff, they're not turn not trying
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: to sup with many women. They're just trying to like
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: use it to find a woman. So it's like they
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: see it as a set of tools to like because
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: I think that most men still are you know, they
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: still want a like they want kids, they want to Oh.
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean this is what this
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: society is that most men and women most want a family,
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: want kids, They want that, and what everything we're doing
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: in society is going against that.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's for nature.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: And and I think that men when they when men
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: learn that they're propagandized, because we're both being proper, both
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: men and women are being propagandised, they they react to
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: it in the way that you know comes after those
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: three things.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: They either MiG tile monk, or they become PUAs they
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: exploit the system, they figure out there's a there's a
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: propagand at a campaign, and so they like, okay, what's
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: the meta, and then they play the meta to win.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: And then you have the men's rights advocates or the
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: men's issues advocates that like, well this has to be changed,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: and they like fight to change it.
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: Well, let me stop there a second, because I don't
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: I don't think there's just a very necessarily strong distinction
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: between these as strong a distinction between these groups, as you.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: Know, I don't think so either. I think there's a lot.
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of yeah, well, there's most
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: pretty much all of the plays I know and I've
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: come across, they all acknowledge that men about men's rights issues.
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: It's just like in their lifetime. How they're just reacting
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: to it. They're just like in my lifetime, this isn't
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: going to change, So I'm going to take whatever. And
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: I think they're all equally valid approaches to I don't
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: think there's you know, if it works for them and
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: that's how they get through the current social dynamics, you know,
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: pats off to them, man like, I would prefer that
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: they advocated for men's issues at the same time, and
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: a lot of them do.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: But yeah, like, uh no, I don't disagree.
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: I think value.
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: I think there's value in all their perspectives too, so
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: and I'll give you a good example of that. So
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: when it comes to I think one piece of advice
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: we can take from that, well, you were talking about
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: sort of pee ways and gaming gaming women in a relationship.
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: I think there is an aspect of that that's useful.
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: Even so, what I would say is for a married man, right,
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: I think one of the big reasons marriages fail and
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: men end up in dire situations insider marriage is because
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: of fear. I think they fear the state. They you know,
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: they fear having their children taken away and even navigetting
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: to see them again or being a weekend dad. They feel,
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: they fear the financial devastation of divorce, and it turns
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: them into an absolute weakling in their relationship. You know,
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: they become a yes dear, and they become they becomes
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: sort of the yes dear, sort of happy wife, happy
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: life kind and that will dry up a woman's vaginal
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: like anything, like nothing, I mean so so yeah.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: More than that, it puts them at risk in constant
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: they're basically like constantly under the gun because they have
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: to like be they have to stay well behaved because
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: the state is you know, backing this woman if she
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: decides was not just you know, like terest.
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, there's okay.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: My point is that I like Karen's analogy about that,
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: by the way, the sort of you in a relationship
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: and the woman's got a loaded gun.
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: I love that analogy.
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: But what I'm saying is that it becomes a self
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: fulfilling prophecy that fear turns turns these men into the
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: kind of women that the kind of man that these
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: women don't want to deal with, you know, a weak,
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: subservient man. And I feel like what we this is
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: a really good piece of advice you can give to
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: married men. Don't become that guy, you know, maintain I
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: hate this phrase because it sounds cringey, but maintain your frame,
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: you know, like be stay the same guy that you were.
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: You know, stand up for yourself, keep your boundaries. Don't
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: put up with bullshit because if you don't, it will
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: become a self fulfilling prophecy, that fear, and it will
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: ruin your marriage.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: I think that's something you could That's just one example
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: of something you can take from the sort of PUA
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: side of things, that really good advice that Menroit's advocates
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: can give to men.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well we do talk about that.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: We actually have. I don't know if you still watch
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: our streams. I know they're fraught with peril and a
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: lot of people don't have the patience for it. But
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: we do do a lot of shows we talk about
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: relationship dynamics and stuff. I mean, like, I don't know
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: if it's you know, I'm married, Allison's married, and we
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: do most of the shows, so maybe we're not We're
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: not out there playing the field obviously, but we at
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: least we know what a successful healthy relationship looks like.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna be ten years married in December, and I
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: met my wife doing this work.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: She was interested in this stuff, so that's probably a
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: big help.
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: But yeah, for sure, Yeah you got you got lucky there, man.
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: I mean, your wife seems like a really nice woman.
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: I've seen you guys interacting. She seems, yeah, like a
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: fantastic woman. You hit the jack pop.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well thank you. But so yeah, no, I don't.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: I don't.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: So Like one time in twenty nineteen, my last was
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: a guy his name was I think his name is Jonathan,
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: and he runs a YouTube channel call It's Complicated, you
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: know about that.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: It's like a man on the street kind of thing
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: where he like.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, yeah, you probably have because he's pretty he's
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: pretty big. And he asked me something similar to what
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: you said. He said, why He said, why isn't MRAs
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: PUAs and Migtow haven't like sat.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: Down and had a debate or a discussion.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: And I said, oh, but they have, because I organized
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: one in twenty nineteen for the International Conference on men's
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: issues because I knew that they're they're not even that
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: Like I said, they're not that different. They just have
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: they have they're usually working with the same knowledge, not completely,
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: but they just have different I wouldn't even call it
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: antidote antidotes, but more like treatments for it. And then
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: and they can they are they often you know, sort
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: of exist in multiple worlds.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: Like Paul Elam is.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: Like the MRA, like he's like the face of men's
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: rights activist, but he also is someone who considers himself
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: like he's very pro Mickedau and he's vocally been pro
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: Makeedau and you know, he even to some degree considers
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: himself Mick Tau even.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: Though he has a living partner.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: And I think it's because they they have an understanding
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: about their relationship and it's like he's basically like my
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: I have one foot at you know, out the door
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: in case anything happens. And I think that I, you know,
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: I've met Paul's partner. They they're not married. But that's
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: why I say that I'm not using new language. And
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: I think that it's I think that it's a it's
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: a good arrangement as a good arrangement for him as
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: you could get, especially for somebody his age.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: So no, I'm not.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: I'm not at all Like I don't have a problem
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: with any of the PA guys, like I'm probably one
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: of the few. No, no, I'm one of the I'm probably
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: one of the few people in this channel that does not, like,
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: you know, lose my mind when the word Andrew Tate
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: has dropped or fresh and fit is dropped. It doesn't
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: bother me, like I don't.
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: So I think I hate the sort of crazy reactionary
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: stuff about this. He says some dumb shit that I
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: don't agree with, but the guy actually makes some really
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: good but he actually makes a lot of MRA arguments too.
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: And I think one thing, one thing I actually like
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: about those guys is this is something I'd say about
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: Kevin Samuels too. They had a lot of empathy for men.
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: They recognize that how shit the situation for working men is,
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: and how how poorly a lot of women view working
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: class guys. Even the average woman looks at a working
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: class guy like he's he's uh, he's beneath and she's
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: doing him a favor by dating him.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: Well yeah, well the women, Yeah, I think I think
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: that's right. I mean, we know that that's true because
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: we've seen it.
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: So I mean, I think they get a bad rap
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: because they focus on the high value thing, and I
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: think and they focus on sort of how can high
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: value men find a good a good woman and and
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: how men can self improve to become my value. And
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: I think a lot of people have reactions of that, well,
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: I'm not high value man, and they get jealous and
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: to sort of have this fucking mentality towards them. But
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: I think I think it's I think they're they're positive
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: for men too. Like I wouldn't say necessary Andrew type
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: because I think a lot of his views are a
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: bit wacky. But someone like Kevin Samuel's or whatever podcast
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: or Fresh and Fit, like you know, the sort of
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: self improve if you want, if this is what you want,
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: this is how you can get it basically, And you know,
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: I think they're generally in it positive. They might not
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: like Fresh and Fit for example, they might be a
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: bit of douchebags but and speak to people rudely at times,
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: but you know, like, I don't think they're negative.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: No, I don't either.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: I Well, the thing is, I'm not even like, my
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: whole thing has always been from the beginning to have
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: to see the conversation expand beyond what we were doing
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: here and to see more people having it.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: And that was always my goal.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: And I never was under the impression or delusion that
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: people were going to be having conversations the way that
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: I think they should be having them, like, you know,
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: like the like that I should be of how this
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: kind versation happens. I just want it to happen. So
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: like the fact that you have it from all over
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: all across the spectrum of different kinds of people with
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: different you know, interests or like a different way they
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: got into it, and they have different belief systems, so
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: it's not just like like what I see happening.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: The whatever podcast has the approach of, well, let's just
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: bring on some girls and let's get it from the
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: horse's mouth, and those girls they expose themselves, like they
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: just go on there and they say what they believe
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: and we just get a picture into what they're like,
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: you know, I think it.
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: Just it's just like it's I find it interesting show
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: to watch.
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: You can get repetitive at times, Yeah, some of the
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: conversations like oh this crap again. It's interesting in terms
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: of just the social dynamics aspects of it. Watch these people,
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: what do these people think? Why do they think it? Well,
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of stress testing of ideas on there.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: Well for sure, and you're and you're looking at like
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: basically most of the girls on there, you know, they
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: all have only fans, are trying to promote they're trying
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: to make money on the platform. Not all, but I
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: don't know, I don't watch it enough, but I know
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: a lot of them are selling a product.
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: You know, Funnily enough, with the small percentage of them,
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: it's I think it's something like twenty percent of the
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: women they have on their fans creators.
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: Well, the point is there's a lot of like normal,
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: normy voices, right that are talking about this, so you
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: get a sense of like where the conversation is going, yeah,
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: and how it's evolving. So, you know, on the whatever podcast,
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: it was like just probably just started off as like
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna, you know, do what Fresh and Fit does
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: have a bunch of like attractive girls on People will
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: tune in just for that, and then we'll put a
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: microphone in front of them and have them respond to things.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: But then you get like, you know, people like Andrew Wilson,
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: who's like a you know, super like paleo conservative, orthodox
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: Christian debate bro that goes and debates people on feminism
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: and he like brings the history and his wife wrote
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: a book on it, and you know, then you have
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: people like us, So it's like all over the spectrum
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: the conversation is taking place, and yeah, people, some people
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: have you know, the ideas on it whatever, but it
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter to me because it's happening. And hopefully, if
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: the conversation continues and it stays robust, and it stays
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: you know where where like the you know, the best
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: arguments caught on top, then then I think that I
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: will have succeeded or we will have succeeded in getting
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: that ball rolling because and that's what I think is
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: gonna happen, because I yeah, like, what is it Chloe
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: Roma and some of these female m rays that have
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: come out recently, I don't know if you know, Yeah,
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: Emily King and the d Advocate, you know, they're they're
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: all massive and yeah, like and they they have their
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: own approach. And you mentioned the ten men, you know
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: who's also he was promoted by Chloe Roma, and I
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: think that that's all good too.
• 47:41
  Speaker 5: I mean, like it's really good, but it's a bit
• 47:44
  Speaker 5: of a I've got a bit of ambivalence because it
• 47:46
  Speaker 5: also really annoys me because they're absolutely nowhere near his
• 47:49
  Speaker 5: sharp as people like Paul you and you agree.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: I agree, I agree, but it's it's it is what
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: it is.
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: Like.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: I think the other thing too, is some of those
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: people they have a bit a lot more of a
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: they're not they haven't been doing this as long as
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: we have, so they're like they're still let's say, a
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: bit naive in terms of like how they think things
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: should go, and they're not.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: They're not. They're not.
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: I'm not black pilled, but like I'm realistic. I know,
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: like the truth about reality. I understand, or at least
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: I'm understanding it better. I don't want to claim to be,
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: you know, a genius, but like, yeah, I think they're
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: still like low level but they're but they're prominent. And
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: I think part of it is because they're operating at
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: a level that is acceptable for the mainstream. So like, yeah,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: this is why, well, yeah, because this is why the
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: ten Men guy can be like you know he'll say, well,
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: we don't want to be like Andrew Tate.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: He's a piece of garbage. But I'm a men's right eye.
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: And that's why his platform is bigger because he's he
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: is condemning the correct people while still making these arguments.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, this keeps in a state, in a safe corajectory. Yeah,
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: it helps.
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a bit.
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: It's like a bit of a Newted version of mendroids
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: ad because the way I view it. But at the
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: end of the day, like, it's all, it's all in
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: net positive, it's all You're right, it's all it's all.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: It's all in net positive, that's what I say. And
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: it's all in the right direction.
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you mentioned you mentioned Paul, And what one thing
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: I'll say about Paul is, if you want dating advice,
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: advice on how to vet because this is something I
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: feel about. Men are really weak at vetting women. If
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: you want dating advice, learn how to vet women. Well,
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: Paul is the best guy to go to for that.
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: His his videos on dating are absolutely top top tier.
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I think he's fantastic at that.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean I live near Paul.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: I see him sometimes and we oh, cool, I have
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: lunch and hang out. So yeah, yeah, he's a good man.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: All right, Well, guy, is there any last words?
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because we gotta we gotta go. I gotta pick
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: up the wife and stuff. So do you have any
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: final thoughts before I in the show?
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, no, nothing I can think. I mean, like,
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: I'd definitely like to get more into I like to
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: get more into the topic with you.
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: But yeah, like, I think it's a good place to start.
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: Well we can, Yeah, we can do another one of
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: these sometime, you know. Soon.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: I have a guy I gotta talk to on Sunday
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: night because he's in Australia, so it's gonna be a
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: Monday morning show for him.
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: And he's got he's done a lot of research into
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: un women and so I'm looking forward to that. But yeah,
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: thank you guys for coming on the show. And guys,
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: if you want to follow him on X we're calling
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: it X now then.
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: Go check that out. It's in the description of this video.
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: you guys for watching. If you guys liked this video,
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: please hit like subscribe if you're not already subscribe to
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: develop notifications. Leave us a comment let us know what
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: you guys think about what we discussed on the show today,
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: and please please please share this video because sharing is caring.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much for coming on today's episode
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: of The Fireside Chat, and we will talk to you
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: guys in the next one.
• 50:37
  Speaker 6: Okay, they are literal machines. They are talking point machines.
• 50:42
  Speaker 6: They are impossible to fucking deal with, especially if you
• 50:45
  Speaker 6: have like especially if you have like a couple of
• 50:47
  Speaker 6: dudes who have good memory. On top of that, too,
• 50:49
  Speaker 6: holy shit, you're fucked