Latest / Monero Talk / The Future of Decentralization - 1 year on w/ Dr. Kapil of BasicSwap & Particl | EPI 327
Transcript
- Doug All right, good morning, Dr. Kap. Good morning, man. Speaker 4 Hey Doug, how's it going man? Doug It's good, good, good, yeah, to all our listeners, we're doing a live Monero talk, this is these early ones. I actually enjoy them once I actually do finally get up and get on air. I end up enjoying these more, I get my coffee, beautiful start to the day, productive start to the day, so I appreciate you doing this, sorry for being a little late. Dr. Kapil Oh no, no worries at all. It's kind of midday for me where I'm at. So this is all comfortable. I was actually quite relieved. If I'm going to be honest with you, I was like, I really needed to go to the toilet. Dr. Kapil I was like, I'm going to hold, I'm going to hold, I'm going to hold. Hang on. They made me running five minutes late. So I just nipped, came back. You were there smooth. Everything flowed smoothly. Doug Perfect perfect. All right, so we're gonna get like 10 11 live viewers 12. All right, it's going up guys like and share Let's get a bunch of people in here. I like this too because we get a different crowd I think maybe we get maybe more of the European crowd when we do these early ones or people just starting the day here in The US on the East Coast and we are going to get into it with dr. Doug Cap Dr. Cap is of the particle team of the basic swap team. He will be down at Monero topia again this year They played a big role last year. They're a big part of the conference. I will get into all that But yeah, just want to have you on man I know I know we always we always go down some some interesting roads when we when we converse here on Monero talk so enjoy having you on and You can get get me excited as well about your presence at Monero topia. Doug How are things man? How's it going? I think it's it's been a while since we had you on here. Give me a kind of kind of give me your update What's going on? What's going on with basis? Dr. Kapil that i'm just thinking so i think last you guys saw me probably directly on this was uh Monerotopia uh 2023 when i did the talk i know you know you you and i we were sort of you were on uh one of the privacy roundtables which is a little sort of side project that i do with the guys over at um veero uh Doug Love that by the way, you guys are doing a great great job with that. Yeah Dr. Kapil Yeah. So we've been hosting these on and off roundtables where we invite different guests from different privacy projects, start the discussion by giving them an opportunity to talk about what they're doing, what they're up to, and then we progress the discussions onto some broader topics around governance, decentralization, privacy, news that's relevant to what's going on now. Dr. Kapil And that's been a very nice series in its own right. With regards to basic swap, as you know, that's a project that's been led by the particle team. We've been busy toiling away, working on various updates with regards to basic swap. Dr. Kapil So various bug fixes, improving the GUI. Very shortly after the Monero topia 2023, at the time when we gave that talk, it was only possible to sort of, you know, effectively one way, you know, XMR swaps, as it were, pretty much within that week, you know, afterwards, we pretty much shortly got sort of bidirectional atomic swaps, you know, which was, and we were the first to deploy that. Dr. Kapil So bidirectional Monero atomic swaps on a fully decentralized distributed order book, we pretty much pioneered that, you know, within weeks of that sort of Monero topia 2023. We've been doing a few more coin integrations since then, you know, very, very happy to get sort of one arrow on board, very happy to get, you know, D cred on board, you know, and, you know, in terms of privacy, really expanding the options for the privacy communities. Dr. Kapil So, for example, you know, getting, you know, full bidirectional fear of support, because that requires adaptive signatures, and things like with Litecoin, MimbleWimble, as a privacy protocol, you know, we now pretty much have support for MimbleWimble coins. Dr. Kapil So with the upcoming Litecoin sort of update, we'll be able to actually implement full sort of atomic swap support for the MimbleWimble form of Litecoin with our various pairings. So there's a lot there. Dr. Kapil And then we Doug Let me let me get into that. I always feel I think I've said this every time you've been on I feel it I feel like basic swap is a little bit underrated for for what they've been doing what they've been up to and I feel like That continues to this day I mean you guys really are the only usable Bi -directional Monero based Atomic swap decks that exists like people need to know that. Doug Oh, yeah And it's it's amazing that you do in fact exist you guys kind of figured out figured out a way a workaround Monero on a technological level really isn't ideal for for basics for for for doing atomic swaps because of its nature It's not it's not easily programmable. Doug So it's difficult to do a like a Bi -directional swap to be the maker and the taker you guys kind of figured out a way around that using a communication protocol that Essentially allows you to be the maker or the taker with Monero and end result being you can swap Monero For Bitcoin using a topping swaps or swap Bitcoin for Monero using atomic swaps by a basic swap So for anybody who's hearing this for the first time It's a big deal and it's it's a tremendous platform and resource for the crypto community in general But specifically for the Monero community, Doug especially given the fact that as we know Monero has been delisted for many exchange for many exchanges A lot of people are champion the deal listings right as a good thing Forcing Monero to be outside of the centralized state controlled system, which is great But if we're gonna do that, we do need these on ramps and that's where basic something like basic swap comes in And obviously a lot of us are excited about Sarai that's gonna be up and coming But basic swap exists today and it works and it's proving by improving by the day and it's growing in adoption by the day So just want just want to make that clear to everybody that's out there Maybe maybe some people don't even know so do you want to you want to give us the quick then? Doug 101 of what basic swap is especially from a Monero perspective better than what I just did Dr. Kapil Yeah, I thought you gave a really good summary of it, to be honest. But atomic swaps are basically a lot of these exchange services you use to trade cryptocurrencies have some centralized authority behind them. Dr. Kapil That even applies to a lot of the atomic swap taxes that exist. So what an atomic swap is on a very fundamental level is you take two different blockchains, you synchronize them effectively, and you execute, I guess the best way to call it is a smart contract. Dr. Kapil I think that's actually an elegant way to put it. But you basically have a conditional smart contract that says, here is my part, let's work together to generate a shared secret. As soon as I reveal my site, my secret on my chain, it reveals the secret on the other chain. Dr. Kapil So effectively means that once I complete my end of the swap, it allows you to complete your end of the swap. Now that's essentially it. So it's like, look, you've got two Bitcoin and you want to exchange it for 0 .5 Monero because really 0 .5 Monero should be worth two Bitcoin, you know, let's just be upfront here. Dr. Kapil But say you want to do that, you basically with the with atomic swaps, you basically have a set of conditions that goes when X is revealed, Y will simultaneously be revealed. And this swap completes and that occurs on a protocol based level. Dr. Kapil So it's very direct, it's purely between party A and party B, there is no party C that's orchestrating this. It is all on a protocol level, and that utilizes messaging directly between the chains. Now, the issues with a lot of the atomic swaps historically is that you required persistence. Dr. Kapil And you basically needed to be running your own node, your own nodes, effectively. So you needed to basically be running your own nodes and having them persistently online in order to execute those swaps. Dr. Kapil And also, prior to atomic swap, that's in general to do an atomic swap, the steps in an atomic swap had to kind of be manually included. So when atomic swap, that's a stud coming along, one of the big processes of swapping. Dr. Kapil So rather than sending emails back and forth, hey, this, this, this, I've received this message, okay, let's proceed to the next step, the other, you know, you could basically just say, here's an offer on our here's an offer. Dr. Kapil And it's on this debt, and the debts will automate those steps to make it go through provided it finds a taker. Now, what we basically did, and I think this is the important thing is a lot of the atomic swap debtors that exist, a lot of their order books may utilize some kind of centralized service provider. Dr. Kapil So it's, it's, it's automated, but in a centralized fashion, what we effectively did was we utilized our own sort of peer to peer messaging protocol, which is called the SMSG network. And that's basically, if you want to look at it historically, it's an evolution of something called the bit messaging protocol, but it's basically a peer to peer network, which I could say is analogous to the torrent network, Dr. Kapil or even the tool network. So in many ways, let's say it's like a combination of the tool network in the torrent networks, it's peer to peer, and all of the messaging on the nodes is encrypted. And it's a network that's quite sort of optimized for execution of smart contracts, involving cryptocurrency. Dr. Kapil And you know, it's designed to support payments utilizing cryptocurrencies as well. So we basically took our SMSG layer, and built a protocol that just automates all of those steps. So as long as you're running an SMSG, as long as you're running basic swap decks, what you're doing is you're running an SMSG node that connects to other people running basic swap decks who are also running SMSG nodes. Dr. Kapil And you download this. And in this situation, you are downloading the chains that you want to swap. So you know, at the moment, you know, say you want to swap Litecoin to Monero, you're going to download the Litecoin chain, you're going to download the Monero chain, or you've already got a node, you know, you already got running a Monero node or a Litecoin node. Dr. Kapil So you kind of configure basic swap decks to point to that node, and then download and see the other chains that you wish to trade with on basic swap decks, leave basic swap decks basically running. It's almost like a server. Dr. Kapil So in some ways, I can address the adoption issues here, which is that this is a lot of this is a lot of work for people to do. You know what I'm saying? You know, you're basically saying at this point in time, and these these are the pain points as well, we recognize them. Dr. Kapil And actually, we are kind of finding out fixes for all of them that maintain de -serialization, but we'll get to that later. The pain points are that you are effectively running your own server, you are running your own exchange. Dr. Kapil So it's like with Bitcoin, you're running your own bank with Monero, you're running your own Swiss bank, because it's like a wallet that you can swap, you know, swap, you know, swap coins with. You are running your own Swiss bank when you run Monero. Dr. Kapil When you're running basic swap decks, you're running your own forex, and connecting to other people running their own forex. That's what the experience is. So yes, that does have certain pain points. Dr. Kapil But the power of that is, it is fully non -custodial, you are completely in control, you know, the execution of these contracts, there are no sort of middlemen that are involved, and they're conditional on such a protocol level that they either go through or you get refunded. Dr. Kapil So it is incredibly secure, it's incredibly private, there is no KYC requirement when you run basic swap decks in this way, because you're running it as a protocol level service. We got a legal opinion, by the way, and, you know, one of the really interesting things actually from a legal point of view is basic swap decks is similar to the SWIFT network. Dr. Kapil So if you look at the SWIFT network, that's a messaging network that exists for traditional finance to ensure that money goes from X bank to Y bank, you know, it allows for transferring of fiat currencies between banks, and that's a centralized messaging protocol. Dr. Kapil Now, the really interesting thing is why is SWIFT as a network never been sued for money laundering or AML violations, you know, it's an interesting thing to look at. Doug And I never, I never went down that road or even thought about, I mean, I, I, I assume the following the bank secrecy act in, in some format, but yeah, go ahead and get, get into this. So we'll get into that. Dr. Kapil this. So when we got our legal opinion, they looked into this. And what they basically found was with the Swift network, there were cases, they actually have, there's case law. So there's already case law, which was brought about whereby, you know, I think maybe it was the US government, I'm not sure, don't quote me on that, but there is case law that exists and it's internationally recognized. Dr. Kapil And there are judgments that basically go, yeah, we did look into Swift and thought, is this a money laundering platform? And when they actually looked at the case itself, they basically came to the conclusion that if we declare this as a potential source of money laundering, then we are basically potentially blocking any messaging platform. Dr. Kapil It would potentially blocking, it's, they basically said that the Swift network's just a messaging protocol. And because of that, as a messaging protocol, they can't be held responsible for money laundering violations. Dr. Kapil That's actually the banks that use them. So the onus from that judgment was that the bank who are centralized authorities or they're responsible for funds, they're responsible for vetting the customers. Dr. Kapil So the Swift network isn't, they're just a simple messaging protocol. And that's why you don't see the Swift protocol getting sued for AML violations or money laundering. It's the banks that will potentially get sued. Dr. Kapil And that's why the banks have to do the KYC. So when we got our legal opinion, when you look at basic swap decks, it's analogous because you're just using an end to end encrypted messaging protocol called the SMSG network to swap instructions about atomic swaps, which are direct swaps between two parties without a middleman. Dr. Kapil So it is up to the, you know, if you, if you look at this from a legal perspective, the theory is basically basic swap decks is analogous to the Swift network. So the responsible parties are just the people who are swapping. Dr. Kapil I can't be held responsible for what an individual does on that network. It's up to those individuals. And the analogy already exists in case law. So that from a legal point of view, it's a, it's a wonderful thing. Doug And it's even more so, you know, just a tool than, you know, a permissionless tool than the Swift network, right? Like, I don't know, can I go run an instance of the Swift network and participate? Like, that's even, that's even, you know, there's arguments to be made there that it's controlled by central centralized entities in a way, this is just purely open source software that people anybody can run on their computer and permissionlessly participate, Doug you know, your refrigerator can trade crypto on basic swap, right? You don't even have to necessarily be a human, anybody that's that's a running software. So yeah, I would say even more so, you guys, you guys are better suited in terms of arguing, you know, Dr. Kapil Well, can you sue an artificial intelligence for trading? Could you run an AI that runs, you know, we've got, although I forgot to mention that, you know, we've got market making scripts that you can also run. Dr. Kapil So you basically run basic swapbacks as a server, and it just basically, your instance will run a market maker effectively. So it will just republish trades based on parameters you set, and you can set that, and it kind of query, the way it kind of adjusts the pricing is it can query an oracle. Dr. Kapil I think it's coin gecko, but you can set the oracle that you want to query effectively if you want to tweak it that much, but you can run the market making swips. What's to stop an AI from running market making scripts on an instance of basic swap? Dr. Kapil Then where does the liability fall? I think that's an interesting legal question to ask, you know, for the future. If you want to go futurology, and I mean imminent futurology. Doug Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah, let's we could we could get it to that for sure. We got some tips coming in Kevin tip 25 cents BSX basic swap is very easy to use kudos to the BS X team. Thank you, Kevin Thank you so much. Doug By the way guys, please use XMR chat comm slash Monero talk to send us your super chats and we'll bring him up here We got another one ain't on tip the dollar all roads leave to Monero. Thank you so much. Doug I Can't agree with you more and a third super chat tipped tip 16 cents. Happy Halloween month All right. All right. Yeah, happy Halloween month. I'm a big Halloween fan as well Yeah, I don't know if you saw X have you seen XMR chat. Doug We've we've had some success with this. Okay XM XMR chat It's a way to tip with Monero directly peer -to -peer Easily accept Monero Monero tips Yeah, we launched it a couple of months ago. It's working nice So yeah, anybody that wants to send a tip, please use that even if it's small amount We want it. Doug We want to encourage the use of Monero So you don't you don't need an account to create an account to set a tip You just go to XMR chat comm slash Monero talk if you've ever sent any Monero transaction at all it's just as easy as doing that enter your your made -up username and Your message and hit send and it will just give you a Monero address to send your tip to Dr. Doug Kat man. Yeah, this this is awesome I mean, so how far would you say you guys have come from from when you started is is it more usable now? I think you made mention of the fact that You no longer have to run a full node of the cryptos you're trading or you do you could you can now easily kind of Connect to remote node. Doug So if I'm if I'm Doing an atomic swap using basic swap, but I want to swap Monero to Bitcoin Do I still currently need to you know run a basic swap instance? And then plus also run a full Monero node and a full Bitcoin node. Doug Is that the current state? Dr. Kapil If you're already running a Monero node, you can point your basic swap instance to that node. It does require a bit more configuration. What I would basically say at the moment is if that's something you want to do, just come down into our basic swap channel, chat channel. Dr. Kapil You know, that's, it's a combined channel, you know, Telegram, Discord, and Element. But, you know, preferably Element, I like Element. But, you know, if you come down to basic swap channels, and that's something you want to do, just come down there and basically ask. Dr. Kapil I think we need to put up some better guides on how to do that, but it is something that can be configured, definitely. And that reduces some of the pain points. Doug And I would just getting it up and running from the get go is it is and I have to ask because I you know to my own fault I actually I don't use it not because I I have nothing obviously nothing gets it just because I don't I currently don't have a need right I I earn my Monero I earn Monero and then I spend Monero so I'm not I don't really swap I don't use any tools currently to swap really I mean you know maybe maybe sometimes out of a out of a you know if we need to move into some other crypto for some other reason but rarely are we swapping anything for anything here but if I were I would definitely give basic basic swap basic swap ago but give me kind of give me the rundown of you know a noob that wants to get onto basic swap decks and perhaps obtain their first Monero anonymously using basic swap maybe they have Bitcoin maybe they have Litecoin and they want to use this to obtain some Monero Monero Dr. Kapil So I'm going to go to basicswapdex .com. And so if you're running a Windows machine, you can download an exe executable and it goes through the process of installing it. So that side of things is pretty automated. Dr. Kapil If you are using a Linux machine or a Linux device, if you're familiar with Linux actually, if you just go through the installation steps, it's quite straightforward. If you're using Apple, I believe we've got sort of package installer for that as well. Dr. Kapil So essentially just go to basicswapdex .com, basicswapdex .com, download, and just basically pick your OS and kind of go from there. If you do encounter any issues, by all means just go into the chat, but generally the installation process is a lot less involved now. Dr. Kapil The key things you need to understand are that when you install it, you have to select the coins you want to see. You can always add other coins on later, if you change your mind or even remove coins, if you're not e -trading them. Dr. Kapil And it takes a little bit of time because it is going to download and sync various chains and you do need to leave it on. So like I said, it's like running your own server. It's basically running your own forex exchange. Dr. Kapil You need to leave it running so that it can message with all the other guys who are running it. But apart from that, that's fine. If you want to use the market making scripts, there's a pretty quick guide. Dr. Kapil It's quite easy to set up. It's all on the Particle Academy. So if you basically Google P -A -R -T -I -C -L Academy, but it's also linked within BasicSwapdex website, all the guides are there. It's quite straightforward. Dr. Kapil I won't lie. It is less involved in terms of installing it than when I spoke to you last time. There's still a bit of work to do, but as Kevin said, once it's running, it's really easy to use. It's literally, you see the orders, you just point and click, you know what I mean. Dr. Kapil And even if you're running the market maker script, it's even easier, because you just basically leave it running like a server and it will just steal the trading for you. If you're more of a professional, or if you're running sort of dedicated strategies, but if you're just looking to do your own swaps, very straightforward as well. Doug Fantastic. We're getting some more super chats in here. Cube's body fan tipped $4 .32 and on ramp requires Fiat. Don't forget about Hovino. Yeah, for sure. We you know, we need multiple bridges, right? Doug It's like like like any any major metropolis. We need multiple bridges coming into and out of the city. Basic swap is currently our only atomic based means of doing so. There's other ways to do Monero based atomic swaps, but not built in a user usable way in the form of a DEX. Doug So it's basic swap is really the only thing we got in that regard. Hovino Hovino's more is more like it like abyss, right? It's not really it's not built based on atomic swaps. Hovino is interesting because it does have the ability to swap dollars, right, cash, physical cash, like kind of like local local Monero connecting buyers and sellers in that regard. Doug Any thoughts? I mean basic swap obviously that it's built for crypto to crypto, right? You can't atomic swap Monero into cash. There's no way to digitally swap Monero into physical cash. I think we're breaking the laws of physics at that point, but I don't know if you have any thoughts on that one. Dr. Kapil So I think, so that is funny you mentioned this, so I've got two things I'm going to address. So the first thing is actually, I think our next kind of major protocol target to integrate is essentially the Ethereum ecosystem. Dr. Kapil So Ethereum architecture, which is account -based, as opposed to UTXO -based. Now, I know that Elizabeth Bang... Doug Those are our on currently our on basic swap so obviously Dr. Kapil Oh, yeah. So it's UTXO based coin. So you've got Monero, Bitcoin, Litecoin, you've got Fero, PIVX, Dash, Decred, WowNero. Forgive me if I've forgotten any. There's a couple of others I'm pretty sure about. Dr. Kapil But those are the ones that really immediately spring to... and Particle, obviously. But those are the ones that immediately spring to mind. Doug That's pretty much everybody that participates in Monerotopia. That's pretty amazing. I love it. Dr. Kapil I think essentially, if you're involved, if you run a UTXO -based coin at the moment, and it's particularly if it's a privacy project, anyone can do the integration, you just have to jump into our channels, chat and ask. Dr. Kapil I will say this, we've been reaching out to the Bitcoin Cash community, we would love it if some of their developers would come in and if they're working on an integration, just let us know, we'd be more than happy to help. Dr. Kapil But this applies to all other coins as well, if you want to do the integration, come and help, come and chat to us, we'll be more than happy to help you with that. But going back, I think that the big architectural leap we need to achieve is finding the ideal of getting account -based architecture to atomic swap with UTXO -based architecture in a way that preserves privacy. Doug Kevin tip 25 cents. He's asking why does basic swap need a particle note to start I think you kind of covered this in the beginning with talking about that the ability to use the communication network that particle has but If you if you want to touch touch on that people what why do it? Doug Why do they have to get involved it in in particle? Dr. Kapil You don't need to swap particle coins and you don't need to use particle coins and there's no discharges that occur in particle coins. It's historic. So when we built the SMSG network, if you look at the particle project historically, we built a peer -to -peer privacy -focused marketplace. Dr. Kapil So when we built the SMSG protocol as we'd implemented it at that time was intricately bound to particles, blockchain and node architecture. So essentially, we've not, I'm advocating for this by the way, separation of that architecture. Dr. Kapil You know, I want to see the SMSG network architecture separated from the particle blockchain. But at the minute, if you're running it, you are downloading the particle blockchain and syncing it. You don't need to use it. Dr. Kapil It's not going to charge you. There's no second order. Doug call it something else in your own mind if you want to I mean it's it's not you're not you're not you're not you don't have to go obtain particle coin to use basic swap there's no you know using particle tokens that need to be exchanged for purposes of using basic swap it's just the the underlying tech that's being utilized I mean Dr. Kapil the reason we, I'll get to it, the reason we've not prioritized that separation at this point is really simple because it's just other things that need to be prioritized. We have so many developers, so much physical time, you know, we need, I don't want to, I kind of, I really feel like I was about to, well, you know what I told you before we started? Doug Yeah, let's, let's wait, let's hold, let's hold that big one for the Monero Tokyo Cowboys. Dr. Kapil We kind of solved a lot of problems with relation to atomic swaps in relation to the requirements for persistence and storage requirements. So, you know, a lot of that we kind of conceptually solved. Dr. Kapil I'm hoping we'll be able to announce something much more concrete by the time of Monerotopia. But, you know, I think when people find atomic swaps perhaps inaccessible in terms of the setup and the requirement for server -based stuff, I think what I'm going to say, and it's really interesting because we had Luke, so we did privacy roundtable quite recently with Luke Parker and he brought up the issue with atomic swaps is that in order to run a successful atomic swap service you need to have things running persistently and you have storage requirements that are involved with downloading and syncing chains. Dr. Kapil But if you get rid of those two things, then instantly you open up the accessibility of atomic swaps and you make it easier to sort of install, set up and use from the go. So, we kind of have that worked out and, you know, I'm not going to say obviously we need this. Doug So you're effectively saying you may or may not have figured out a way for essentially people to run or to access the basic swap without having to run the whole client full node and run the nodes of the currencies that you're using. Dr. Kapil has something that's like detection. Tremendous. Tremendous. Doug I'm sure people can start to imagine what that might mean and how you can use basic swap But we want to save the announcement for Monero topia and I guess the details of how you guys figure that out Dr. Kapil Yeah. So we'll leave that for now. But like I said, when you have various priorities in place, you've just got to pick the things that are most pragmatic. Yeah, I definitely do want to see separations of those architectures. Dr. Kapil And, you know, I think that that will sort of move ahead in in get enough time. But by the way, I actually want to thank you guys. I want to thank the Monero community. I see of XMR. Doug I wanted to bring him up. Yeah off red X because he's done. He's helped out quite a bit with basic swap, right? He's made some commits and things of that. Yeah Dr. Kapil I'd just say he's helped out would be probably an understatement. You know, I feel he has really inserted and immersed himself into this sort of basic swap community. I have to applaud you guys, you know, I have to applaud him, you know, for seeing the bigger picture. Dr. Kapil You know, one of the things that we deal with as a privacy community, certainly as a cryptocurrency community, is the tendency towards maximalism. And when maximalism gets in the way of pragmatically working together to achieve a shared common goal, that's toxic. Dr. Kapil That's not helpful to anyone. You know, you guys you guys like often often XMR who see that bigger picture, and he's come into our community, he's provided so much support within the basic swap development channel, you know, he pushed forward the Monero CCS proposal of XMR takes over the world. Dr. Kapil Love the title, by the way, part one, but you know, the funding that that brings, yeah, if you keep in mind that the way our project was funded was utilizing our own treasury, and I could go into a whole cesarean about, you know, the problems of running your own sort of, essentially, you know, running a treasury on an illiquid coin, you know, effectively, developers are working on peanuts, but essentially, Dr. Kapil that extra money gives our developers a bit of space to breathe, it gives them the ability to just prioritize the development more and focus on it more rather than, you know, how do I feed my family, you know, kind of thing. Dr. Kapil So it certainly helped elevate the professionalism of the project. And we are extremely grateful to the work that XMR has done in regards to and to the Monero community as well, you know, for supporting our project and helping us to sort of move forward. Dr. Kapil You know, I'm really you know, I think on this, I talked about the importance of building a shared economy, you know, you've got to get your store of value proved, then you've got to start building the economy on top of that before you can get through to the governance aspects of it. Dr. Kapil And you know, I know you've been doing a lot of work on XMR Bazaar, for instance, you know, and learned about XMR chat today. Doug I was just going to bring that up in relation to Offburn because he's helped a lot with that. And he's dying to help a lot more. It's just we haven't gotten to the point where it's easy for others to contribute. Doug It's just kind of a one -man show with a narco right now. But he's helped in so many other ways, just kind of steering the project, pointing out stupid things we may be doing and that we need to change. Doug And he certainly doesn't mince words either when he tells us what we need to do. But he always means well, this guy. I mean, he's contributed in a lot of different ways in a lot of different projects. Doug So yeah, thank you, Offburn. Because I see somebody else, Kevin Tipping, again, shout out to Offburn. He helped me set up Basic Swap. Yeah, this is the type of guy he is. I mean, he's in the trenches, just constantly working behind the scenes to help make these things a success, contributing his time and his intelligence towards building on these projects. Doug But go ahead, I just wanted to give my thank you to him as well. Dr. Kapil I think it's, I just want to say again, I think it's brilliant, the economy that you guys are building, you've sponsored the Copa Monero, you're doing all that work essentially to get Monero being used and recognized as the currency that it is. Dr. Kapil And we need to build that world, we can't sit and talk about it all the time, you just have to go out there and show it to people and get people using it. And that's how you build this from the ground up. Dr. Kapil And it takes time, it's work, but there are so many ways to approach it. So thank you again to you guys, it's a brilliant effort you guys are doing on that end. Doug Thank you, man. Yeah, XMR Bazaar is very exciting. It's very exciting to see it gaining an adoption, you know, every time I see a new listing on there, it's like, here we go. Here we go. I mean, it's the impact is the potential impact is tremendous, right? Doug It's the holy grail. Anytime we get a new user there, we're getting somebody to opt into the Monero economy, the Monero circular economy, right? It's not just about having the currency, but like you said, it's about using it and growing out the ecosystem of users and then getting them to actually live off of it, which I think, you know, Bitcoin has kind of kind of failed that, right? Doug It's gotten the currency part off the ground in terms of people, name recognition, people using it as a store of value, but it hasn't really gained traction as being used day to day to live off of as a currency. Doug And, you know, we can get into that, I think it's, for various reasons, it's kind of missed the boat on that. But I think Monero is doing a good job of picking up where Bitcoin left off in that regard. Dr. Kapil I think you will find very few people in the privacy community who disagree with you. I think Monero has taken the reins that Bitcoin should have, I'll say that, and I think there's a lot of legitimate criticism that could be leveled within a core of the Bitcoin community in terms of recognition of outreach. Dr. Kapil It's really hard for me not to bitch about Bitcoin because it's essentially what brought me here. It's that project that essentially brought all of us here, opened our eyes up to the possibilities of what could happen. Dr. Kapil It's taken the direction that it has, I think, to say that it's been captured by a certain element of society and for a certain element. It's interesting how this ties into, in the back of my mind when I was asked earlier about, well, what about fiat gateways? Dr. Kapil Well, you're going to see CBDCs. Let's just be up front here. It goes back to what I was saying about the importance of getting that, for us to get support for protocols of an account -based nature like Ethereum because you've got coins like USDT, USDC. Dr. Kapil A lot of these fiat stablecoins run on architecture that is some fork of Ethereum or has an architecture similar to Ethereum in some way. I think getting us to do our work to get these integrations supported provides gateways to absorb liquidity from those systems into our own. Dr. Kapil If we're going to build a liquidity ecosystem that's privacy -focused, yes, you're going to need people using it and they're going to have social consensus, but at every point in the chain, as we currently stand, even the people in South America, a lot of the people you're working with, at some point they're going to need to trade Monero with someone who's going to need to trade that into fiat, which is the public liquidity ecosystem. Dr. Kapil Now, as these currencies all progressively get digitized, and I think that's going to take some time because actually there are very large sections of the world where the infrastructure for digitizing currency or digitizing fiat, it's just not sufficiently there. Dr. Kapil Perhaps the technology is there, perhaps the underlying physical architecture is there, but the educational architecture isn't necessarily there either. There are lots of different elements to this, but if we can basically stay ahead in terms of making sure that we can maximize compatibility with different protocols, then we have a chance and an opportunity to effectively create an economy that is more favorable than the economy offered by the public liquidity ecosystem. Dr. Kapil I see this as two distinct evolutions, private liquidity ecosystem, that's Monero, Spiro, that's particle, that's Decode Dash. People are going to rage me for saying that, but any cryptocurrency that utilizes privacy technologies is part of the privacy liquidity ecosystem, and Monero is by far the biggest one there, so we'll say that. Dr. Kapil But you've got that public liquidity ecosystem, which is fiat, and I'm going to say Ethereum and Bitcoin. As time progresses, you're going to see digitization of existing fiat technologies, things that were paper -based or based on real physical goods of some nature, they are going to be turned into purely digital entities, and they're going to be trading on the same network that the privacy liquidity ecosystem is, Dr. Kapil but it's about building those bridges. If you've got enough of them and people go, well, I don't like the fact that all of my transactions are now being scanned by a government, and perhaps this particular government is running out of money and decided to sell all of my spending data to corporations to make a profit, you know, and now I'm receiving tons of adverts from corporations who now know every single detail about my personal life or can infer it using their various algorithms. Dr. Kapil Perhaps I don't want to participate in that economy, but oh look, here's the convenient bridge into the privacy liquidity ecosystem. Do you get what I mean? Now no one is spying on me, now I'm not getting intrusive ads, now no one is profiling me and there's a very powerful pro, and people realize that gradually. Dr. Kapil That's not something that happens all at once. Firstly, you know, in some places you just have to be a victim of the system. Some people just are and then they'll look for alternatives. Some people see far enough ahead, and that's what, you know, people I thought we see far enough ahead to build these things as safeguards. Dr. Kapil You know, I look at the original founding fathers, you look at the way they model the Constitution, it was to protect against abuse of power, but any weakness in that system will ultimately get exploited and you'll see erosion of that process over time. Dr. Kapil What we've got to do is build new ways to protect against abuses of power, which is what we're doing, and privacy is the ultimate safeguard for abuse against abuse of power, as you know, and as I've said frequently and previously, so in time we will see this. Dr. Kapil A new look at your forecast now at 7... Doug Yeah, yeah, the amount of value it unlocks is tremendous. And like you said, people just can't realize that it's very abstract. You know, people think in terms of, I have nothing to hide anyway, but they're not realizing the amount of value that comes with living in a private digital sphere as opposed to a public one. Doug And really, it's nothing new. It's taking them back to the way things used to be when we had our autonomy and our private privacy naturally, right? But now that that's been eroded because everything's been digitized. Doug And we live in this world where basically we're trapped and traced in every way. People have forgotten that it's the natural way of living. And they've forgotten all the good and positive that comes with that. Doug And the fact that it allows you to truly be an individual that gets to kind of opt in and live as a free being, communicating at will with who they want to without being spied on and without allowing the state or corporations to affect them through surveillance and chilling effect and things like that. Doug But unfortunately, things have been abstracted away where people don't even realize what they've lost, right? Yeah. Dr. Kapil It's an easy thing to lose because it's an easy thing to not think about people take for granted. What is convenient and freely given I work in the NHS. I feel that way about the National Health Service. Dr. Kapil It's freely given So it's easy for a lot of people to take that for granted I don't want to side but what I was gonna say is Doug I think to me like to be quite the sidetrack right there Dr. Kapil But as we're saying that what I wanted to say is this is about two Fundamentally different philosophies in life with a public liquidity ecosystem that is surveillance based The presumption is one of bad faith interaction, you know, if I was running a CBDC What would I do as a government that was paranoid and surveillance based? Dr. Kapil I would enforce automated taxation by smart contracts Okay, right me as a citizen. I'm paying my every all my paid Oh, this is great convenient. My taxes are automatically being deducted. Okay, one day They just decide to up the tax rate without consulting you then what or say they make a mistake How do you arbitrate the decision because it starts from a position of bad faith assuming you're in the wrong word? Doug they start to come up with policies where they want to dictate how you're using your own money, right? All of a sudden, they don't think you should, you know, be buying beef, right? They don't, they don't think, you know, maybe, maybe, maybe you consumed too much carbon, you produced too much carbon this month, right? Doug They don't want you purchasing certain things. Dr. Kapil Exactly. Maybe some weird virus comes along and suddenly they're saying, all right, no more. It's going through the beef. All transactions to beef sellers are blocked. That is fundamentally working from a bad faith assumption about how human beings interact. Dr. Kapil The privacy liquidity ecosystem, however, because you don't do that. You can't do that. It works on a fundamental good faith assumption of how people interact. It assumes that the responsibility and onus lies on people to be on the individual, to be honest and responsible and sincere and mature. Dr. Kapil I think that's a better interaction because you don't have to be those things, but it's so much easier to do business with someone who works on that assumption. They're more likely to actually engage you in good faith than people who engage you in bad faith. Dr. Kapil Well, it's tricky what you do about that, but at the end of the day, I would rather live in a world where I would rather live with people that engaged from a good faith assumption. I'd rather live in a society that was built on good faith assumptions. Dr. Kapil I think the privacy liquidity ecosystem is the foundation and the building block of that to go further. Speaker 2 Do you love coffee and Monero as much as we do? Consider making gratuitous .org your daily cup. Pay with Monero for premium fresh beans and if you like what you taste, send a digital cash tip directly to the farmers that made it possible. Speaker 2 Proceeds help us grow this channel, gratuitous and Monero. Doug For sure, for sure. We have 122 live viewers right now. Guys, like and share, like and share, especially if you're on X. Let's get it out there. There's a lot of people just kind of waking up, tuning in. Doug Let's, all roads do lead to Monero, but let's help them get there faster, right? Let's help them stumble upon some based information as opposed to a lot of the crap they're consuming out there on the interwebs. Doug Find your way here. We have a fairly reasonable investors asking question. Once the new full chain membership proofs plus plus addresses come in the next update, should you transfer your XMR properly to its short forward secrecy? Doug Yeah, this really isn't a question for appeals. This is more of a question for Luke Parker. Luke will be at Monero topia. Please bring that question up. Please attend and you could ask the question there person, or you could tune in remotely and you could ask him the question. Doug I mean, my basic understanding would be, I think you'd be fine. Dresses aren't going to be affected, but yeah, sure. If you want to send a Monero transaction after full chain membership plus plus is implemented, just send the transaction to yourself. Doug I think you would be good to go, but we could get some detailed and nuanced and highly intelligent response from Luke Parker, I'm sure. At the conference, which brings me to actually, let's take a quick commercial break. Doug I'm going to quickly play our Monero topia commercial and we'll get back and continue the combo. Speaker 5 Are you interested in privacy, freedom, technology, and Monero? Come to the conference that has it all. Monero Tilpia 2024. Join us in our world -class of cypher -thunk speakers to discuss all things freedom. Speaker 5 Engage in the Monero circular economy. Go shopping at the open -air Monero marketplace. Join a workshop. Enter a hackathon. Opt out of dystopia and into Monero Tilpia. At Huertor Roma Verde, Mexico City, Mexico, November 14 through 17. Speaker 5 For only one easy payment of $89 for general admission or get the VIP ticket for one easy payment of $249, payable in Monero. And enjoy discounted drinks at the bar and dinner with the speakers. Get your tickets now. Speaker 5 Wives dot com. Enter promo code 1 -800 -MONEROTOPIA to get 10% off your order. Doug Yeah, I love that commercial. Traceable made that, he did a fantastic job. Anything that guy touches, he's good. The prices have since got up a little bit, guys. That's an old commercial, but I keep playing it because it's so well done. Doug Prices have since gone up a little bit, just to encourage you to grab your ticks now. I mean, now we're only, we're basically a month out. It's basically, I watched the countdown to the presidential election whenever I hear there's only, what, like 35 days to the election. Doug Monerotopia's coming up right after the presidential election, November 14th through the 17th. Basically, I guess it's the week after the election. It'll be a different world, right? It'll be a different world. Doug Actually, just a different version of the same thing, right guys? No matter, no matter, it's Coke and Pepsi out there that's competing for winning the presidential office. But yeah, Monerotopia will be a way to escape, will be a way to escape the PsyOps for four days, come out, hang out with real liberty -loving people that have opted out or are looking to opt out and that are actually building the tech that will allow us to opt out, Doug come hang out with them. I think Dr. Cap, right, you could attest to the fact that it's a good time down there in Mexico. Dr. Kapil Monerotopia is excellent man, uh, I love it. It's, uh, you know, you just get to meet so many great people. There's so many people that you, you quilt to long in advance that you finally get to meet face to face. Dr. Kapil And it's just a great, great way to mesh. It's a small world. Monerotopia helps make it, you know, more connected ones, certainly within our communities. I really respect that. Doug And like you said before, with when you were talking about, you know, privacy tech in general and all these different projects, how they're all part of the same economy and ecosystem, Monerotopia has tried to tap into that, you know, widening the tent, making a welcoming to whatever your privacy crypto of choices come on down, because we're a small community after all, small amount of us, even if you add us all up, Doug all the different projects, it is still very small. So we need to we need to join forces, right, especially at this juncture at this time, when governments are really waking up to what we're up to. And they want they want to, they want to squash us. Doug The best thing we can do is grow as a community that is that the best defense is just not comply, ignore their scare tactics and continue to grow as a community. Dr. Kapil I 100% agree, and I look at projects, I look at two things, I look at the technology, and I look at the people. The people are all trying to achieve the same things, by and large. The projects, they're all trying to achieve the same things, but they're doing it in different ways, and they've got different focuses, and we're all focusing on different aspects of technology for the same goal. Dr. Kapil Yeah, if you think about it, I come from the particle community, but in particle community, we've built basic swap decks, that is to serve the Monero community and to serve the privacy communities as a whole. Dr. Kapil And I look at the work that we've done, that you've been doing with Monero, and we've been doing with the privacy roundtable, this contributor, and it's bringing all these projects and listening to what they're doing. Dr. Kapil And it's like, okay, these guys have something useful to contribute, perhaps it might be good to look at it in terms of how it could apply to this ecosystem, and vice versa. So there's a lot of cross talk, and there's a lot of cross collaboration that can occur and does occur. Dr. Kapil As you said at Monero Topi, it was nice, it was the first time I met the guys from PIVX face to face. I was like, username did not match the face that I had in my mind, and you have, well, what's this person look like? Speaker 4 this is their username. No, no, that's not who you are, you know, I thought you were going to write my face in my mind at all, you know. Dr. Kapil So it's funny in that way, but actually getting to meet people and they're passionate about all of the different projects, they're not beholden to their coin, if that makes sense, they're beholden to their purpose. Dr. Kapil And to meet people with that shared purpose is just great, especially people who look so far forward. Doug Yeah, especially when you meet the dev, like the people that are actually building the projects, they're always of the open -minded sort because these are very intelligent people that view these things as technologies. Doug They may have their project, but it's because they have their own ideas and things they want to implement and things they're excited about. It's usually the second or third layers after it. Those are the crazy people that are shilling, relentlessly shilling the project and they're maxi. Doug But when you get down to the core of the actual intelligent people that are building this stuff, no matter what project they're from, they're almost always open -minded people, right? Because they're smart enough to be building this tech. Doug They're cognizant of the fact that these things are just technology. They have pros and cons. They're capable of measuring the differences, seeing the different projects. So, it's refreshing when you talk to those people and you're like, Dr. Kapil Okay. I'll say it's inspiring. And there's so much you can learn from them when you talk to them. I'm not a dev, by the way. I'm like an advocate. I'm a guy who understands devs. I can chat to devs and understand what they're trying to do. Dr. Kapil And that's the thing. These guys, the devs, they're trying to achieve something big and it's abstract. It's not something that's easy to communicate. It's just something you kind of have to look at. Sometimes it's a case of, I can completely understand. Dr. Kapil You're coding and writing something that you've got in your mind and you'll try to outline your vision. And just being able to share that with enough people who are willing to kind of listen and learn from you and appreciate what you're doing. Dr. Kapil I listen to the devs for these different projects, particularly though I look at full -chain membership proofs. I was like, what is this? And then I understood what it was. I was like, wow, okay. You know, that's really something. Dr. Kapil Because if you look at the social value that Monero has, but then, you know, Monero didn't really have that many limitations from a privacy point of view. It's always been a very strong privacy coin. Dr. Kapil But then you look at what FCMP does, what FCMP++ does. I'm like, okay. It increases the anonymity set to the whole chain. That's fantastic. And you can understand the inspirations. Again, I kind of was like, okay, a sort of like comes from what Vero's been doing in sense, you know, in terms of... Dr. Kapil But it brings Monero to that level and it leverages the social phenomena that Monero's accrued as well, you know, as a privacy coin. You know, the liquidity is a reflection of that social value and that social accrual. Dr. Kapil And to combine those two things is incredibly powerful. So I have full respect to the developers for looking ahead and talking to each other to really understand what the problems of the day are, what the problems of the future are, and really putting the effort into just to just solve them, you know, full credit where it's due. Dr. Kapil And to people who can articulate that vision, you know, we're valuable. But at the end of the day, you know, this is a network that needs to spread out. And that requires people who dedicate their time and understand this. Dr. Kapil So I credit to them, you know, like, yeah, yeah. Doug Man yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know if you want to answer this one fairly reasonable fairly reasonable You should be using XMR super chap XMR chat calm by the way for one say you don't have to send the big tip You can send ten cents five cents. Doug We just we just want you to use it. You want you to use it and Those that use it. I'll more I'll be more I'll be more persuaded to bring up your your comment. I will guarantee to bring up your comment He's saying Dr. Doug Cap mentioned he works. I don't know if you want to if you want to get around this road a little bit work That works in the NHS. Does he have any comment on the politics involved versus private health care or no comment? Dr. Kapil So I could go on a huge tangent and keep it separate. Doug separate podcast. Yeah, maybe we could just briefly talk, because it is very interesting. You are a doctor after all. Kind of give us the tie in there of your doctor world and your crypto world. Go down the path a little bit. Dr. Kapil Okay. So my background, I'm a consultant in emergency medicine. So, you know, I guess, would it be attending in the US for an ED? It's a very senior. I've probably been working in the National Health Service. Dr. Kapil I've qualified in 2008. I've been working and I became an ED doctor from around 2010. So I've got about 14 plus years of experience in emergency services. I've worked in the National Health Service, which provides free public health care. Dr. Kapil And to answer your question, the question in brief about the politics, I think free public health care is amazing for the receivers of health care in terms of how the providers of those health care get treated. Dr. Kapil I'm not so sure. I think there's a big contrast between how well providers of health care are treated in public health care systems versus private ones. And you see that in terms of quality of life, basic metrics, quality of life, pay, working conditions, various other things, you know, there are, I think there are stark significant differences. Dr. Kapil And in the UK, you are seeing migratory trends of doctors from the UK to countries that are essentially private health care providers because they provide better pay, better working standards. And that unfortunately is to the detriment of the population that receives that health care, because you are effectively getting a drain. Dr. Kapil Now we do balance that out in terms of immigration from other countries, in terms of doctors coming in, but the issue is every doctor that comes from another country, it takes about a year, on average, it takes a year or two to kind of acclimatize to the culture, the legislation, the relevant background. Dr. Kapil And you're kind of training them. So I think, like I said, that's the short answer. Grateful receivers, not so great for the providers. In terms of the politics, I don't actually think the politics is that different between private and public institutions. Dr. Kapil If you look at the NHS, it's an incredibly fragmented system. It's actually built from the, if you look at the history, it was a decentralized system. It was lots of different hospitals and organizations run by their own people. Dr. Kapil And then they kind of formed sort of vague partnerships and alliances that then later got formalized by the government and various legislation that was passed. So it started off as a decentralized network that kind of centralized over time. Dr. Kapil So it's interesting in its own way, but because of that, there's a lot of bureaucracy and there is a lot of processing efficiency. But to answer your question, I mean, I discovered Bitcoin back in 2011, yeah, 2011, 2012. Dr. Kapil And yeah, I'm kind of thinking, that was purely, I saw it specular potential back then. I ignored it for a few years, 2016. I literally saw it when it was trading between $3 and $30, $30, it went to $1 ,000. Dr. Kapil I was like, this will go to $1 ,000 in a year. And my camera is on, so you probably want to stay out of my field of view, guys. So what I'm going to probably do is I can't switch off my camera and additional people. Dr. Kapil So what I basically, I should have had blur on, I should have had. But basically what I was going to say is, I was aware of cryptocurrency, understood its speculative potential, because I understood the value of, I understood the currencies at that time were inflationary fiat ones. Dr. Kapil And I understood that this Bitcoin was deflationary. So I kind of understood, and I was aware of where it was being used and how it was being used. So I read up on that, and I understood that. And I was like, okay, this will go somewhere. Dr. Kapil If you look historically, the leaders of adoption tend to be, I guess, people who, if you look at the Kennedys, their background was, if you look at the Kennedys prohibition, the ancestors of Kennedys, they were basically running bootlegged alcohol. Dr. Kapil They made their fortune basically being bootleggers. And people who kind of live on the edge of society, they have to adapt because they're faced with more challenges. So they need to be a bit more open -minded, a bit more quick to think. Dr. Kapil And in terms of embracing technology and solutions, I think it's a case of, in terms of embracing the solutions, I think people of a certain mindset are going to be quicker than people who perhaps are more rigid in the way they perceive the world, who perhaps buy the myth. Dr. Kapil And this is, again, another tangent. Certainly the myth I was sold when I was growing up was, go do as well as you can at school, go to university, get a job for life, get a pension, die. And actually, life is much more complex than that. Dr. Kapil And I think people who are recognised that they're more likely to embrace adaptive technologies, and they tend to benefit more in life in general. But my point is, yeah, I ignored it for it. And then I cried. Dr. Kapil And then I raged quickly for a few years because my interest in it purely was speculative at that time. Then I discovered Ethereum in 2016, made a speculative bet, which paid off. But at the same time, as I discovered Ethereum, I discovered Particle. Dr. Kapil And as a privacy project, they were trying to build a privacy -focused marketplace. I understood the potential value for that in a more simplified form. As I stayed with that project and got myself more immersed, again, this comes down to talking to the developers and the originators of a project, you come to understand the underlying philosophy behind privacy. Dr. Kapil So you're opening yourself up to people who have a particular belief and mindset and an ideology. And as you understand that more, you understand the nuances and the importance more. One of the things I'm going to say, as a doctor, there is a real limit to what you can do as a practicing physician in terms of your impact on the world, which is you can have a very direct impact on the patients that you directly see and treat. Dr. Kapil You can have a very direct impact on the clinicians that you train who then treat patients and train others. But it's very difficult to sit in a position. Bearing in mind, I was probably finishing uni around the time of the 2008 -09 financial crisis, going around thinking, there's a lot of crap. Dr. Kapil When you see lots of there were some part -time jobs I was working, I thought, this really isn't necessary me working this job. I don't think I'm actually being productive. I remember looking back maybe 2009, I was looking at the UK is kind of financial pie chart and going 25% of it's from the two square miles in the city, it's generated by the financial sector. Dr. Kapil Another maybe 7% was property prices. So effectively, 33% of the UK's economy was fundamentally speculative in nature. I thought that's at the time, I thought that's not actually a very strong basis for an economy. Dr. Kapil That's just what I intuited. As I've grown older, my understanding of the world is fundamentally economic. I look at everything as a resource problem. How do we deploy resources? How do we deploy time? Dr. Kapil Time is the ultimate resource, by the way. It's the ultimate currency. Time is currency. I'm going to just say that right now. All of the technologies that we deployed that have been adopted have brought convenience on some level. Dr. Kapil They have saved time. They've created convenience which saves time. Time is money. Thanks for watching! Doug So and everybody's competing to steal your time, right? And Speaker 4 Right? Dr. Kapil Exactly, exactly. But that's the thing. People who are good investors understand that good investments in life are things that create convenience, because that saves you time. So like, you know, really good examples like Facebook. Dr. Kapil If you bought shares in before Facebook as a social media network came along, if you wanted to organize a group of 8 to 20 people, you'd be phoning left, right and center and coordinating, you know, maybe you're lucky enough to do conference calls, but the average citizen, they'd have to make like, oh, 10 folks, can we can we meet at this date? Dr. Kapil Take you a whole afternoon. Facebook came along, you'd send one message out to the group and you'd have then a chat. That saves time. That was the value of Facebook. Google's value was, you know, search, you know, before Google came along, you were using AltaVista, Yahoo, MSN, and they were all just really busy. Dr. Kapil And there are a million things all distracting. And you just couldn't really find what, where to search. And Google came along and was like, Oh, type it here. There's no distractions, you get a result. Dr. Kapil And it's pretty much what you want. It saves you more time than using competitors go through. And then they had a business model that worked, which was advertising tacked onto that. You know, even like, you know, what's a world without knives, you know, for cutting food, you know, that's not convenient, you have to tear it with your hands. Dr. Kapil So then you invest in the guy who invents the knife, or the guy who invents the wheel, you know, but again, I know that sounds like a tangent, but this, this under, this understates the point that technology, good technology is about providing convenience and good technology provides the kind of convenience that creates resource in terms of creating time. Dr. Kapil If you can create time for people, then you can give them your energy, your attention, you can teach people, you know, if you have to walk three miles a day to get two, three liters of water and then walk three miles back, you spent a couple of hours, you spent half your day just getting water. Dr. Kapil Now you give them six hours of their life back, you can send them to school for six hours and teach them a range of different subjects. And then they can learn abstract ideas or learn a bunch of practical skills. Dr. Kapil They didn't have time to do so. Otherwise, we have to look at problems from that perspective. This is economics at its core. A truly productive economy is one about creating time. It is not about speculation. Dr. Kapil The economy we have right now, which is fundamentally collapsing, is about speculation. That's why Bitcoin has grown the way it has is because we've had a bunch of speculative factors, quantitative easing, being a major one, that, you know, quantitative easing and inflation, you know, that's been the biggest, that's been a main drive. Dr. Kapil It's not the only one that's been a main driver for Bitcoin price growth, not non speculative adoption. That's a false economy that is not stable at its core. If you're going to grow the US debt, but not tie that to anything, that's and all that money that you've printed off is now going into speculative investments in Nvidia on the future of AI. Dr. Kapil Well, great, what do you do? But does that money actually filter down into people who build things that create convenience? Does it filter down into social structures and tools and devices and just things that make the average person's life more convenient? Dr. Kapil Yes or no? If it does, great, you're building an actual economy and you're creating time, which then gives people time to explore freedom of expression. I'll give you a I'll get distracted, but it's the idea of a happy life is a fulfilling life. Dr. Kapil And a fulfilling life is one way you pursue the thing you're born to do. And the only way you can pursue the thing you were born to do, you know, your purest form of expression is to have the time and the time resource to do that. Dr. Kapil So that's what it comes down to. I don't, you know, Doug Yeah. And then, yeah, I definitely agree with you on all points. And I guess with crypto, it's a little bit more abstract, right? And it's like this with a lot of big technologies that ultimately have a tremendous impact on improving people's usage of time. Doug Often in the beginning, they don't they don't seem like they're things that are that are helping. In fact, they seem like they're weird workarounds that take longer and they're difficult to use, like, all right, I could just use my credit card. Doug Why do I got to freaking go run nodes and they like this to send a transaction when I could just use Venmo, right? And often, often with technologies that completely change the paradigm, there is that transitional period where they almost don't even make sense. Doug Right. Like when you invent a car and there's no roads yet, it's more difficult to use a car than to get on a horse. But if you're if you're able to envision what the future may look like once you build out the infrastructure, things will be way more efficient once we're all driving cars. Doug But getting through that initial hardship time often takes some some abstract thinking and realization that you need to invest now for, you know, harvesting the fruits later. Dr. Kapil And this is where we are now, Doug. You know it, I know it. We've got to, we've built the underlying ideology, that the technology is there. We know what it's capable of. We've just got to now build the convenience factors whilst reinforcing the core ideological factors. Dr. Kapil So FCMP++ is an ideological thing that's securing the privacy of the narrow network further from future attack. But then the convenience element is things like XML Bazaar. Things like removing the pain points in basic swap decks. Dr. Kapil But yes, basic swap decks and then removing the pain points in installing and using that. It's about recognizing the pain points in your product that's utilizing the underlying ideology and then working towards removing them so that every day people can use them without even knowing they're using them. Dr. Kapil I said earlier, people take for granted what is convenient and given freely, but ultimately that's what we've got to build. We've got to build something that is all convenient and freely available, which is an information network that is privacy -focused that people can jump in and out of at any time they please, almost without even knowing it or not necessarily even understanding the ideology behind it. Dr. Kapil We just have to provide it. And they just go, oh, hey, yeah, all right. Well, these guys are now using the CBDCs to automatically tax me and they're blocking all of my transactions from ABC, but it doesn't matter because I can just go use this network that's over there. Dr. Kapil That's completely private and doesn't do any of that. And I can just do it on the same device by just tapping a button. That's the aim. That's the angle here. Doug Uncle Darryl, tips, 50 cents, sending some Monero energy. Great talk, guys. Thank you, Uncle Darryl. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. All right, Dr. Capp, we could go on forever. But I got to get back to my fiat life, unfortunately, this morning. Doug I think you may have to do so as well. Super excited to see you down in Mexico City in November. It was amazing last year. Very, very excited and thankful that you guys are participating again this year. Doug And thank you for the sponsorship as well. The privacy tech projects that get involved really helped make the conference wouldn't happen otherwise without privacy tech projects like BasicSwap particle participating and actually chipping in to help make it happen. Doug So greatly appreciate that aspect as well, man. Big help. And as I've been saying, BasicSwap, I think it's one of the more underrated projects, overlooked projects in this ecosystem. If you guys don't know it yet, definitely give it a look. Doug I mean, it's amazing utility that's improving day by day. It's growing in usage. It's a way to anonymously obtain or swap and sell Monero peer to peer with no corporation in between. No fees, right? No fees other than what the fees of the party is charging. Doug There's no third party taking a fee. It's literally living the dream. It's obtaining and Monero in the most ideal way possible. So thank you for that. And very much look forward to what the BasicSwap announcement will be down at Monero topia. Doug Any last words, things you want to say and resources you want to put out there or places to direct people to go? Dr. Kapil Uh, yes, so you can follow basicswapdex .com at basicswapdex, you know, that's the Twitter handle, uh, join us on telegram, element, or discord. Those channels are all linked. Um, you know, if you want to follow me, I'm at the greatest doc. Dr. Kapil That's genius and ego combined. Um, but obviously I just want to thank you for your time, Doug, because it's always valuable and much welcome. Doug Thank you, sir. And I'll see you soon. Appreciate it. Speaker 2 Hi, Monero Land. Thank you for joining on this week's episode. We release new episodes every week. You can find and subscribe to our show on YouTube, Odyssey, iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Speaker 2 Go to MoneroTalk .Live for a full list of places where you can watch and listen. If you want to interact with us, guests, or other podcast listeners, you can follow us on Twitter, Mastodon, or any of our social media platform. Speaker 2 MoneroTalk is also made possible from contributing by viewers and listeners like you, and supporting us is easier than ever by typing in MoneroTalk .Crypto in your Monero .com or cake wallet send address to send us a tip. 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