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27. Sheila Costello - OG Fellow · Learn Literacy Podcast

• Cheryl Urbanczyk: Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of the Learn Literacy Podcast, where we focus on language for life by teaching literacy through language and structure. And I'm very excited to have a fellow OG practitioner with me today, someone that I looked up to when I was doing my OG training and learn from at conferences. So Sheila Costello, thank you for joining us today. It's great to have you here. Sheila Costello: Yeah, very happy to be here. Thank you. Cheryl Urbanczyk: yeah. Well you're welcome. And like I said, it's been amazing learning from you. I'm, having a fangirl moment to be honest with you. so I I like to hear about people's OG stories, how they got into Orton Gillingham and what led them into this work why don't you share that with us. Sheila Costello: it was really kind of serendipity in many ways, but like many people who are in this field, I got into this field because of my own child who was struggling in school. And, I actually have a background in science. I was a biochemist. So I wasn't an educator, so I didn't know anything about this. But my oldest daughter sent off to school and she really struggled. And we went through all of the usual things that parents do, know, blaming the school and what have you. But it was a journey. A journey that I see in a lot of the people who come to us for tutoring or come to us to a school for OG. And so her first introduction to OG was actually in this small private school that she was in where they had tutors come in and work with the kids. But she she ended up by going to the Carroll School, which is in Boston for dyslexic children. So one day I was in the supermarket and I met a lady who I had carpooled to this little school with the year previously. And she told me that she was going to go to Carol to train to work with dyslexic students. And I said to her, well, that's interesting because you're not a teacher and you don't have a background in that. And she said, no, you don't have to. This is a whole year training program and this can happen. So I went home and thought about it for a couple of hours and I called them and I went for an interview the next week and then lo and behold, that was my beginning of training. And the Carroll School has a program for, they do a couple of different types of teacher training. But when I was there, it was a year long training and you actually worked in the school for the whole year. And we started with a training, with the theory, with a week of theory. And then we were assigned three students who we saw five days a week, four days a week, I'm sorry, four days a week for the whole school year. And every week we would have a training session in the afternoon. So we worked like part-time half a day, three students. I think I had a permanent migraine for the first three months. It was stressful. Cheryl Urbanczyk: a lot yeah yeah especially Sheila Costello: It was hard. Cheryl Urbanczyk: the lesson planning to day to day for three students that's intense wow Sheila Costello: were all different ages and it was very challenging because the lesson planning as you know is a huge piece of OG. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. Sheila Costello: Yes and then in my training you know the people today they kind of complain and they say well this is so stressful having to do these observations and I think well when I trained Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: we never knew when our supervisor was going to come in. They Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: all would just open and they would come in and sit down. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: And it was always a day. You know, something, the kid was like, not Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Sheila Costello: at their best that day or I had a Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Sheila Costello: bad word and my supervisor kind of shake her head a little. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, yeah. Sheila Costello: But it was a wonderful training, yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: that's really neat. I think that's interesting how you studied and then implemented right away. I think Sheila Costello: Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: it's it's a very rich model to be able to do that. And I noticed when I was seeing more of the OG world and things like that that people who are centered around schools, their training and experience is different than let's say myself. I'm just kind of And far from a school and community Sheila Costello: I think it's really, really wonderful to be able to do that where you get the basics, like what we do in our first part of our training course. And then you can absorb that a little bit as you start with a student. And then as you go through the school year, you're building on it. And Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yep. Sheila Costello: of course, in any training program, it's important that the... the trainee is given the appropriate student, know, that they gave us students who, they may be different ages, but they were all pretty much beginners to start Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: with. Cheryl Urbanczyk: me so you you've been in the OG world a long time. What have you seen as like positive movement forward with OG or changes that are welcome over time? What have you noticed? Sheila Costello: changed, it's changed hugely over the last few years. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: When I think it, because I was doing this, I was thinking, when did I really start doing this? You how long ago was it? Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Sheila Costello: And it was a little over 30 years. And, In that time, there was a lot of resistance against even the word dyslexia. It was the D word and we weren't allowed to use it. It was not considered, it was not accepted by the public system at all. And they would say, this is a medical diagnosis. don't do anything with it. And then the other thing was that kids were not diagnosed very early. They really let them fail. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: And so a lot of the times we would have kids who came in third grade, fourth grade, even higher, because nobody had really dealt with this. early enough. I think that that change, I mean, we, you know, we always say this early intervention works. And I think there's been a huge emphasis on early intervention. I noticed that a lot of the trainees that we have had gone into practicum, they have much younger students. They're getting students in the first, second grade, a lot of second graders, but earlier. And it's very rare for them to have these older kids, which we, which we had. So I think that the recognition has changed a lot. And, you know, since we've really begin to accept the science of reading. I think in the last 10 years or so, there's been a big shift in the acceptance and the desire for this kind of training in the public system, which was not there previously. Cheryl Urbanczyk: that's so true. So, you know, our contexts are kind of different. So in in the States I think there's a little bit more awareness of that and the need for training than maybe where I am in Canada. But how how do you think the science of reading is intersected with with OG to help move OG along and to create that awareness of Orton Gillingham? Sheila Costello: Hmm, well, in the fact that it is a structured sequential approach, I think that it was in the academy, you know, we have only had that classroom educator level in the last, well, I'm not sure, 12 years, like that. And I think Cheryl Urbanczyk: finish years or something maybe. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: that that made a big difference. It's for to have a classroom model Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: that particularly in these early grades in kindergarten, first and second grade, that can really shift the trajectory of so many of these students and that having some data that really shows it. is very helpful. And of course, OG was always expensive for schools to pay for. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yes. You mean for tutoring, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sheila Costello: Yeah, it's expensive. It's expensive to train people to do OG. It's expensive to keep training people to do OG, because it's not a one off. It's like you have to keep it going. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Sheila Costello: That's hard. And I think that's hard for administrators to get their head around as well, is that they often think, yes, we'll come in and we'll get these people to come in and train all our teachers. and they see that as, the budget line in that year. And there's always attrition. There's always movement in schools. And so you have to keep doing it. And that's an expensive thing to keep going. Cheryl Urbanczyk: I agreed. And the the training piece, the attrition piece, but also this the implementation piece, 'cause maybe if not everyone does the practicum, we all know it's one thing to learn something, something else to implement it, and then what do you do when you have problem XYZ and then sometimes because of the rush of the day or whatever, you just revert back to what what you know instead of, applying Sheila Costello: I mean the practicum is what really puts makes the whole thing work is without that practicum you know anybody can go and sit through a course but to go back and to actually change the way you do things and know what to do when something may be not going quite right and that's where the whole practicum piece comes in over and over again we hear the people who say, you know, the course was great, but it was the practicum where I really learned how to do this. And the fellows that I have trained here in the Charleston area, they've had a very good model for the classroom, for the classroom educator model, but very time consuming because they have They go into the schools continually during the school year, at least once a week, to have a planning period and support the teachers and to really make sure that they're getting the mentoring that they need. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well it's it's nice if there's a team at the school and it's not just one token person, let's give them the training and then they're just on their own Sheila Costello: I think that's. Cheryl Urbanczyk: and I don't think you get enough change that way. So yeah. Sheila Costello: You don't. The most success that they have had here is in a school that's now actually it's kind of expanding into other schools, which is a really excellent thing. But they started in a school where they trained all of, I think it was the first grade, and then were able to train the next year or the second grade. And Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: so over time they actually had K through two that the body was trained and everybody was on the same page and that makes a huge huge Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. that's very neat. Yeah. Yeah. Well just Sheila Costello: Yeah, unusual, I agree, it's very good when it works. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, it is. Well, changing gears for a minute, because I I have a particular question for you. Some years ago you did a conference presentation and I wrote the name down, the OG approach and the scope and sequence. And you compared the scope and sequences from the language toolkit, the Gillingham Manual, and Sheila Costello: Bye. Cheryl Urbanczyk: June Orton. So w why was that an important presentation for you to do? Sheila Costello: You know, if you go back to the founding of the Academy, it's the fellows or the people who, became fellows, but they were the founding members of the Academy. They came from all these different kind of offshoots from the original work of Sam Orton, So, were the Gillingham people and there were the language toolkit. particularly and then the June Orphan. And of course, over time, things kind of change a little, you know, it kind of gets better. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sheila Costello: And so, well, I'll illustrate it. When I was at Carroll School, I was at Carroll School for several years. then we relocated my husband. was recruited here and so we relocated here to South Carolina. I was like, what kind of school can sequence a follow? You because Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: you always believe that what you trained in is the way, the way, you Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yes, the right one. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: know, a place like Carroll School. really have it down, you know, and it's like, Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Sheila Costello: that's, that's the way. But actually, these people all came from different, different backgrounds from the language toolkit from June Orton. And these were actually kind of June Orton, because in the south, there's a lot of people who were trained by people who had been trained by June Orton. And so, so it and of course in the Midwest from the language toolkit and the East was all Hannah Gillingham. And so what we have to have to do is kind of go back and say, you know, let's be flexible here Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. Yeah. Sheila Costello: and, see, what makes sense, what follows the principles of OG, you know, sequential. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Sheila Costello: explicit sequential and so forth. and, but we have to, we also have to kind of accept and appreciate that somebody might decide that theirs is just a little bit different from mine. It's fine. It's the hardest thing actually, because people always, well, OG can be a bit rigid, you know, and And so people always think that their way that that's the only way that it's supposed to be done. And if you're not doing that, then you're not not correct. But Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: that's really not true is that you have to really kind of think about the principles of OG. And and this what I'm doing is that following the principles of OG. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. I I found that presentation very impactful and you had this little chart to compare everything and I just thought it was really neat. And Sheila Costello: Mm-hmm. Cheryl Urbanczyk: I've been spending time learning about the history of of Sam Orton and June Orton and and studying some of these things and I I personally never realized that there was these differences that you were speaking of until maybe that conference because I I'm not quite sure how much difference Sheila Costello: You would know. Cheryl Urbanczyk: there is now or if it's more of a historical thing or or not, but it I think the history is important to understand and it gives us context for where we are today and just found it fascinating. So Sheila Costello: Well, you would not be the only person who didn't know that there were differences because Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Sheila Costello: that's, and I think what's happened as well, know, over time is people take the scope and sequence and they, kind of tweak it. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm, right. Sheila Costello: So then that gets passed on and passed down. And Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: sometimes you have to sit down and say to yourself, does this make sense? Is this logical? Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: Am I really following that Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: sequential, simple to complex? Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I stress that a lot in my training. That simple to complex, most common to least common. Because I'm I'm sure you've seen phonics scope and sequence, like they throw in everything but the kitchen sink and it's it's just kind of too much. But that logical thinking and using the principles i i is so key, but I I think once you have some more experience and understanding it becomes easier to do that. And when you're first learning, I think, the the structure and and maybe some of the rigidity isn't necessarily a bad thing 'cause y you're just learning, you know? And that Sheila Costello: I think when you first learn, when we first train new people, is that they need structure. They need some guidelines. You can't just throw it out at them and say, Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Right. Sheila Costello: you know, what the most logical, simple to complex, etc. They need that structure. And so that makes sense to that people give a theological scoping sequence. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Well, I remember when I first did my training, the associate training, and I don't remember when it came out from the academy that fellows had to give a scope and sequence because that wasn't something when I first did my training that was an expectation that fellows provide that. And I thought that was a really good thing. So I I mean personally I use June Orton's book as the basis for the scope and sequence. And it's pretty much what is in her book. Well that's kinda neat. Sheila Costello: I think we were always very Anna Gillingham. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: you know, Anna used to go up to Boston on a regular basis to train to train people at the Mass Journal Language Clinic. they and so from. That was kind of. interesting. She Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: was apparently a tough taskmaster. And Cheryl Urbanczyk: So I've read, yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: she would come up and observe people and then on the way back she would write her notes and they were sometimes pretty tough. But from the people who were trained at the Mass General, think Anna trained Mildred Plunkett, Mildred Plunkett trained Alice Garside, Alice Garside trained Angie Wilkins who trained me. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Hmm. okay. So so Angie Wilkins was your fellow. that's neat. I spoke spoke with her in December. That was fun. Yeah. Yeah. Sheila Costello: that's wonderful. Now, Angie trained me and she at that point was the head of the training institute at Carroll School, which was named after Alice, the Garside Institute for teacher training and gift. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: And Alice used to come every year to the kind of graduation of our little group. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: the group of year-long trainees, and she would read from Anna's letters. She was in her 90s, I think, at that point, but she was still very, very swift. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Mm-hmm. neat. Sheila Costello: Yeah. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Well what if what do you see are like still pressing issues for OG or your OG practice or you know, maybe new l new learnings coming out of, you know, even science of learning, science of reading that present good connections for us as OG practitioners. Sheila Costello: Hmm. That's a multi question. I Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, I know. I threw out a bunch of things. Just you pick something and just go go with it. Sheila Costello: think, you know, as time goes on, we will know more and more about how our brains become reading brains. And I am always amazed. If I read some of the material that was, you know, some of those printouts from way back from people like Katarina de Hirsch and, obviously from June Orton and, all of these people were involved early on in this movement as to how correct they were. not have the right science behind it at the time, but because of their clinical observation and from how they really thought about it, it's always amazing to me how the the Orton and Gillingham approach, the whole philosophy of the Orton and Gillingham approach, so matches what we know about how we learn, and now we help these children who are learning differently. I just think as time goes on, we will know more. You know, as far as practice is concerned, as far as training teachers and getting this into kind of regular education, we've still got a long way to go. But some, you know, I don't know how it is in Canada, but here in the States, it's patchy. You know, there are states that are doing a wonderful job. and have really, really changed much of their kind of statistics, you know. And then there's Cheryl Urbanczyk: Amazing. Right. Yeah. Sheila Costello: others that are not so good. And even if you live in a state where you have a really good educational system that's really following all of the science, you can live... 50 miles out of the city and still have very little access. So we still have a long ways to go, but I think we've seen a lot of progress. It's Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: encouraging the amount of progress. And I think the desire for training has changed enormously. And I think that's reflected in the number of fellows that we now have. others who are applying. When I became a fellow you know, if they had two or three in a year, that would be amazing. Now, a lot of a lot of applications, and I think that's because there's a lot of desire for training out there. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, yeah, agree. Yeah. that's neat. What about on let's say more of a personal intellectual level yourself? Is there anything coming out of of these new learnings that piques your interest or y you want to learn more about to deepen your own understanding or intellectual curiosity on something? Sheila Costello: Well, I'm kind of out of it a bit at this point in my life. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Okay. Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: I passed on my training to fellows as Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Okay. Sheila Costello: I've trained six fellows over time. I Cheryl Urbanczyk: wow, that's neat. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: think, let me see, there's three of them very active here in this area. And one in Georgia, in Savannah. who kind of collaborate with each other. Others moved out of, you know, out of state for one reason or another. And so I decided last year that I was finally retiring. think I Cheryl Urbanczyk: Take easy. Sheila Costello: retired from the school in 2017. then I started training down at Havana, and then came back here, did some training here. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: and then we know the pandemic was a big change because, my two fellows here, the three of us, we had a training course planned for the summer and in person and we said well what are going to do you know so we decided that we would give it a shot to do it online. Cheryl Urbanczyk: cool. Yeah. I think we all Sheila Costello: in the Cheryl Urbanczyk: had to do that and learn everything. Tutoring, teaching. Yeah. Yeah. Sheila Costello: but we do have to learn, we have to learn quickly how to do this online. And so we gave our trainees the option, know, you can either back out of this, we'll refund you or you can, Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Sheila Costello: they're like, no, no, we'll do it, you know. So Cheryl Urbanczyk: neat. Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: we started training online. And so we did that for a couple of years. But when there's a big hole, it's in certified training. And so that was something that I had done both at the school, both schools, but at this school here in Charleston. And I did it independently. this is the, being able to do this online is a huge advantage. you can bring in people who would not have access to it otherwise. You know, because if, you don't live in an area that has the certified training, it's Cheryl Urbanczyk: Right. Yeah. Sheila Costello: difficult to do that. And I had some people who came to the school years ago, who came to the course and then we did the practicum. observations online. but doing the the certified course was a big advantage. And the way I did it was I I did it basically monthly. So I think during the pandemic, we used to meet I hate to think of this, think we met every week to keep up Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: going, know. And then we would Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, yeah. Sheila Costello: meet, I think, twice a month, actually, twice a month. And so we were able to get through all of the readings by having meetings for reading, know, reading and feedback, and then so for coursework. It's a two year commitment. And I felt that at this point, I wasn't going to wasn't going to take another two year commitments. So I passed that on to my fellows to so I'm still you know involved with the Academy. I've been involved with the Academy pretty much since probably about 2000 because Angie, Angie Wilkins was president of the Academy right at the beginning. I don't think she was the first one. think she but she was definitely president of the Academy when I was there and working there and training and training. And so she she kind of, you know, got us involved. And so then Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah. Sheila Costello: I kind of became involved with it over over time. And that has just taken off. because we have so many more members. In the last 10 years, we've we've quadrupled, Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sheila Costello: I think, quadrupled in the membership. Very, it's, you know, it's, I think it's a very dynamic, active, active group. They have wonderful conferences, very practical. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sheila Costello: Now they do them with an online option as well, which really brings it out to a lot more people. So it's constantly evolving, which is a nice thing. Cheryl Urbanczyk: that's that's amazing. I think, you know, the pandemic it has that always that mixed blessing. Meant all things, right, have that mixed blessing. But I was one Sheila Costello: group. Cheryl Urbanczyk: of those people that had to wait for quite some time to take certified to find somebody that I could do it with because at that time the virtual training just wasn't an option with the academy anyway. And then, the pandemic changed that and I think now many people the training is online. and you do get a wider reach of people. And I know like in my context here in Ontario, we have people from very rural areas that then go do tutoring online to reach all kinds of people that, like that live model. Like where I live, it's so hard to get from one side of town to the other in a timely fashion that people just like that option of virtual virtual tutoring because of just life now, right? Sheila Costello: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it really, it really opens it up to so many more people. But you know, we think that that's new, but I knew Jean Osmond and I was always incredibly impressed with her because she was probably close to 80. She was very tech savvy. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Mm-hmm. neat. Mm-hmm. Sheila Costello: She lived in Minnesota. And he was tutoring online kids in South Dakota. And that's a long time ago, but you know, was when none of us were doing that kind of thing. you know, it's pretty pretty I often think about it. She was wonderful. Cheryl Urbanczyk: that's cool. As we wrap up our conversation, what's a a piece of advice based on your great wealth of experience that you would want to share with people? Sheila Costello: I think it's always important to remember why we're doing this, that it's for the student and that the real thing that makes OG different is that diagnostic, prescriptive and individualized approach. And when we all get very busy and we have big caseloads, we've all been there. very hard to plan and to really make those individual lessons to not just note what the errors they made but to think about them as to what they mean and what I'm to do about it and so I think always always try and keep that in mind that it's the student. And I think that was what made it interesting myself. It was always like, I have to kind of unlock this, what's going to make what's going to work for this particular student. And that's what made it interesting to me. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Sheila Costello: I think it's it's just when you do it all the time, you know, you can see how how that can sometimes slip a bit and it can get a bit programmatic. But I think it's so important to always remember that it's individualized and that we're really happy. That's what sets it apart from the phonics approach from structured literacy is that diagnostic and prescriptive piece. Cheryl Urbanczyk: Yeah, that's so true. And I think it's a very different way for people to think about things 'cause, regular teacher training, they just don't think about assessment in in that way at all. And it it's very powerful and this is where we get the Error correction, the working toward mastery and automaticity to to build that success and leading, keeping the lesson emotionally sound for kids. Like you said, keeping things at the forefront for them. So well, thank you so much for your time this evening and for sharing your stories and about what you've done with OG. I I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thank you.