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Thomas - Vietnam Vet & PTSD · The soulnotskin Podcast with Jen SluMac

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they they've come a long way.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: I I'd like to inject uh in this part uh that the Veterans Administration has become more aware of the need to treat PTSD with therapy and has become much, much more helpful to the veterans in need.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: The problem is that many veterans still cling to the soldier up and don't talk about it.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: All right, so I'm here with Thomas.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we're sitting outside together and we just met because I wanted to talk to him.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: He is a Vietnam vet.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: And uh Thomas was a little anxious about discussing his journey with PTSD.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh we began the conversation with some things that he wrote to explain his journey.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I'm gonna turn it over to him, Thomas.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Jen.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for inviting me here to share my experience of Sprint and Hope.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh post-traumatic stress disorder has been around since mankind originated.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Although it's been experienced in people's lives since forever, uh, it was first recognized and labeled only in 1980.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: One definition of PTSD is a condition of persistent mental and emotional stress occurring as a result of injury or severe psychological shock, typically involving disturbance of sleep and constant vivid recall of the experience with dull responses.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: With dull responses to the experience recollections?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: But to the people.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: To the people.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me what you mean by vivid psychological or severe psychological shock.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um in my particular experience it had to do with um being in combat in Vietnam.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um when sudden um threats to one's life occurs, um, that actually becomes a sudden shock.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um depending on how traumatic it is, um you know that's uh becomes intrusive after, I mean, after it's all done, um it becomes intrusive.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: So it it lives in you.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Between the ears, yeah.
• 3:23
  unknown: Okay.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: So like some of the symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder are anxiety, intrusive thoughts, nightmares, sleep disorders, flashbacks.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: I would also add inverted anger and hypervigilance.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: What does that mean?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um inverted anger like depression?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh inverted anger is just uh anger that's not expressed.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's turned inward.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, as a result of that, uh uh, you know, there's ulcers that are involved, um, physical pain.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes people experience uh back pain as a result of um internalized anger rather than a physical, an actual physical injury.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um so the body responds in different ways to it.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Although post-traumatic stress disorder can be the result of trauma like being raped or being involved in a horrific car accident, the post-traumatic stress disorder I want to talk about is related to veterans of war.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: So my recall of its existence was hearing stories about World War II veterans, um, the result of their trauma, like um their experiences, their flashbacks, nightmares, etc.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: In those days, uh it was called shell shock or battle fatigue.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm convinced that anyone who has experienced combat has experienced PTSD.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't until 1980 that psychiatrists and therapists began to treat PTSD therapeutically.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: So prior to that, the veteran was trained to soldier up.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we didn't talk about the ugliness of war.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: The experiences were internalized, resulted in ulcers, bursts of anger, rage, or a lot of people even suicide.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I was 18 years old when I got to Vietnam on January 19th of 1969.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: During the one year that I was stationed there, there were three particular incidents that resulted in the PTSD that I came home with.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know that I had PTSD.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't diagnosed with it until 1987, 17 years after getting out of now.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: And seven years after they found language for it.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't want to get too far off track, but let me just um mention this really quick.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: Now in 2026, there's all sorts of language about things called adverse childhood experiences, which are traumatic events that happen in children's lives, and the trauma being described as anything from uh, you know, seeing a family member pulled out of the house by a police officer or uh a parent who is uh in active addiction or mental illness.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of why I had expressed that um, you know, PTSD has been around since mankind.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um they just didn't understand what it was and they didn't have any uh idea of uh you know ways to treat it, how to treat it.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um but you know, there's been a lot of wars and um a lot of experiences with people having uh PTSD, and um there's been a study done on it, and and the results are um a lot different than one would think, you know.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I I I didn't know that I had PTSD and you know wasn't diagnosed until 1997, but I did, however, allow myself to use psychotherapy as a way of dealing with feelings of insanity which took place between the ears.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: It was after years of therapy that a claim with the Veterans Administration was first applied for.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I was first granted 10%, um, then 30%, 50%, and then 70% over a period of years, and then it wasn't until um 2017, 47 years later, that I was actually granted full 100% of post-traumatic stress disorder that I'm afflicted with.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: So that's so these percentages that you're granted, that means like you got tested and they're like, well, you sort of have it.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: You got it a little bit.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: We're seeing some things, but it took that long for them to say, no, you are fully impacted by this and have that your whole life.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: So it's amazing that you're still alive for us to diagnose you at 100%.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's crazy.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: So um and and each time we have to reopen the claim.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: So so 100% was denied, so then had to open the claim.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I did have assistance with uh disabled American veterans DAV who kind of helped guide me and and um assured me that patience and tolerance was a necessary part of this process and to not be discouraged just to continue to um make the application for increased and then you know go on the therapist, the VA did provide therapists and did provide doctors that were um examining, you know, whether I had PTSD or not.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so each of those stages um increase, you know.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I was at 70% for a lot of years, and I had accepted that um, you know, that was probably good enough because there were a lot of veterans that experienced uh much worse trauma than what I went through.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, some people still alive without legs, you know, missing legs, uh arms, you know.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I just felt, you know, I'd be satisfied with uh 70% and just left it there.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, I still had the challenges of PTSD, and um a lot of it affected my marriage.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: And um finally I I went and applied uh for 100%.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was at 70 for a lot of years, and then finally in 2017 they granted me 100%.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: So what that is, is I get a check every month from the Veterans Administration.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's uh it's great.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: I I've been retired since 2017, and uh I I feel very grateful uh to have this.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Also, a big factor is that with 100% um PTSD, 100% disability, I get medical and dental and vision care through the VA, and I don't have to pay out-of-pocket expenses for it.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, Thomas talked about a few people who also are likely experiencing PTSD from war efforts in Afghanistan or um, you know, during the the Twin Towers in New York.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's there's things, and I don't know that I've ever heard of any of them even knowing that this existed, that they could apply for disability uh by getting a diagnosis of this.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: How did you learn that you could do that?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Through other Vietnam veterans.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, it's incredible.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: The Vietnam veteran was very important to um actually getting the diagnosis of PTSD in 1980.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the studies that have been done on Vietnam veterans um and then extended into World War II veterans.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, they they've come a long way.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: I I I'd like to inject uh in this part uh that the Veterans Administration has become more aware of the need to treat PTSD with therapy and has become much, much more helpful to the veterans in need.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: The problem is that many veterans still cling to the soldier up and don't talk about it, attitude.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: So the way I learned about it and what encouraged me to continue was another veteran talking to me about it.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, by the grace of God, I I've been granted.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for taking the time to sort of share your experience here so that the possibility that folks who have experience similar, you know, male or female soldiers who are out there might be able to find some identification with this.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: And not necessarily need somebody immediately in their lives who who comes and says, you know, you're not crazy.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: This is a real thing.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, on the spiritual axiom, I think this is what we're doing here.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, go ahead.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: So the only way that I knew how to deal with the disorder was with alcohol and substance abuse.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Needless to say, but I'll say it anyway, that's not a healthy way of treating PTSD.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: I had been going to psychiatrists and therapists since the early 1970s, but was not yet diagnosed with PTSD, and I was not yet diagnosed with clinical depression, but I had these mental health conditions.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Alcohol and drugs were a way of helping me to escape the ugliness that the mind was afflicted with.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: But eventually substance abuse wound up creating a completely different way of life that was absolutely an unhealthy way to live.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I lived with high anxiety, hyper-vigilance, internalized anger, nightmares, and flashbacks to the traumatic experiences of Vietnam, but didn't speak of it.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, my loved ones and the people around me were the subject of the negativity that resulted from untreated PTSD.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: The wreckage that was created from alcohol and drug abuse was stopped when I began a life without abusing those things.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: My life got better, but I was still afflicted with PTSD.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: I've been married five times.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: The first four marriages were in fact a result of my PTSD, which involved fear of living alone.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: The fear developed from being left alone under fire in Southeast Asia.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Unknown to me, whenever I was alone, I psychologically and unconsciously relived being left alone in Vietnam with the Viet Cong shooting at me and trying to kill me.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: So the way to not be alone for me was to move in with her or have her move in with me.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't matter if the relationship was unhealthy, which they were, uh it was more important uh for me to avoid being alone.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Again, all of this is happening subconsciously.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Another unhealthy situation uh in my life was the nightmares.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: They always had a common denominator, which was helplessness.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: For example, one of my recurring nightmares was me in Vietnam being on a hillside overlooking a valley and where my company was camped at.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: I had no radio, I had no weapon, I had no way of alerting my company that a regiment of NVA were headed their way.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I watched the NVA overcome my company assault and kill everybody, and then I wake up.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Helplessness.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: What does that mean?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, North Vietnamese army.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, sorry.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's okay.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's okay, that's why I asked.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: So another one was like me being shot in the spine, unable to move, and watching assailants beat up and rape my wife.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Common theme, helplessness.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, these were the nightmares that were happening ongoing repeatedly.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: How effective are you able to be in a life that is being sabotaged by this kind of psychological experience?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, how effective are you able to be in the world?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a miracle that I'm sitting here and talking to people.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the good news is in 2006 I intend attended a trauma focused group, which consisted of eight veterans who were in treatment for mental health issues.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: We were instructed to remember all the details of our traumatic experiences.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Remember the sights, the sound, the smell, even trying to place a time that the traumatic experiences as they unfolded.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: We had to write about them.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: We had to examine them and allow ourselves to feel these experiences instead of trying to forget them or instead of trying to anesthesize them.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Placing a feeling to what had taken place was something new to me.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Using the affirmation that was then and this is now was a great way of experiencing what I had been trying to avoid and trying to anesthesize since Vietnam.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: It took eight weeks to complete this trauma-focused process with weekly therapy sessions.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: And the sessions during week six was where each veteran in the group had shared their trauma with everyone else in the group.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: The end result was no more nightmares after that, and a lot more peace of mind.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: So two things I heard you just say that I'd like to just sort of uh highlight, zero in on for a moment.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, one is the tool of that was then, this is now.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I'd like to talk about that in a second, but also um just the value of maybe they'll ask you about the value of being in a group with uh folks experiencing something similarly and the value of saying it out loud with people who understand.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how much does the world need spaces like that?
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: It does, it does need that, but that that's the healing process.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: See, a lot of people like myself either use substance and alcohol to forget, not to remember, or we stuff it, we cram it and become physically ill as a result of it.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: And the real healing process is the opposite.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's to examine it, to recognize it, to feel it.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, to sit there and feel it.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and not only that, but to be able to label what what that feeling is, what that fear is, what just label it and and allow the mind and the body to experience it.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: And the affirmation that was then and this is now, it's just a confirmation that I'm okay.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: You're safe today.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna be okay.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm safe today.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's a great healing process, and I'm just amazed to this day that not since then have I had a nightmare that deals with helplessness.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: I actually had dreams after that where I did have a weapon and was able to defend myself or defend my loved ones.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: A complete change from the inside out.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: You have to use the nose.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: You what if if you could find the moment in that whole process, what would you say made that change?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like how did that shift like that?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure uh what you mean.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: I just I mean nightmares that you describe that you're having regularly, and then you're in a group of other uh veteran soldiers and you're sharing your dreams, and then you're you're labeling them.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: So that's one thing.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: Labeling can be very tricky because I think we can become overburdened with labels.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but in my experience, it's really important to know that labels for things.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Exists so that I am named for them, so then I can at least start to make some we have to understand before we can move past.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: Isn't that right?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: Don't you think?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: To some degree.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so do you think it was sort of that whole parade of things, like the sharing, the admitting, the examining, the understanding?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Allowing myself to feel.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: Allowing yourself to feel.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of instead of trying not to feel, experiencing it.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: But who wants to experience that to feel?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like what kind of courage?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: How did you find like the desire to live?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: I imagine it's an instinctual almost desire to survive that can't drive you to be willing to feel that.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's a guess I'm asking.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Just it it just the believing that this trauma-focused process was going to be helpful.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: Having that faith and trust that that was going to be helpful.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um again, uh, there's been a lot of experience with treating uh veterans that have PTSD.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: And uh this whole process, a lot of people weren't aware of what trauma focus was.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, it was a complete, you know, turnaround.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: Just the fact that I didn't have those nightmares anymore.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's incredible.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: I am so relieved for you.
• 23:33
  unknown: Thank you.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I saw physically for those who can't see you right now, I saw physically, even in your retelling of the story, I saw the relief wash over you when you reported that you no longer had those nightmares.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it uh it really it I felt it.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I am an advocate of um therapy and trauma focus, which turned out to be a healing part of my affliction with PTSD.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: I've been without alcohol and drug abuse for over 42 years.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: With the help of Alcoholics Anonymous and years of psychotherapy with Kaiser Medical and eventually with the Veterans Administration, I've been blessed with peace of mind, which is a big difference in my life.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: I've been married with wife number five for 20 years now, and I no longer fear being alone.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: I love that my wife and I have this genuine love with each other.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: I've been blessed with a life that I could never uh have imagined uh before being treated with PTSD.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say to somebody who uh is still who hasn't found words to describe the types of things that they're experiencing?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: What were some of the you said that the the folks closest to you sort of got the brunt of your untreated PTSD?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: What is it, how does that manifest?
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like what were they what were you giving off?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: What kinds of things are in your life as somebody struggling with that and not realizing that that's what you're struggling with?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Bursts of anger.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately, I mean, not just out on the road, I was 68 years old and still pulling people off the highway that cut me off, telling them come on, let's go duke it out.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: I don't do that anymore.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't do that anymore.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, you know, um unfortunately and fortunately, the wife that I have today, uh I'm the patience and tolerance that she had with me is is really what helped save this marriage.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd have bursts of anger and I'm spewing verbal karate and just ugliness, and and then talking to my therapist and saying, I don't understand where this is coming from.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: My wife is undeserving of this kind of stuff, yet she's the brunt of it because I live with her.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: It taught me a lot of different ways of healthier ways of dealing with life on life's terms.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um practicing patience and tolerance and love, um, and trying to look at things in a different way.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I've been working on these things for a lot of years.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but still at home, the bursts of anger got to the point here.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm complaining to my therapist again.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: Look, I've got these bursts of anger, and I don't know where it's coming from.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um therapist, just a matter of fact, said that, oh, this is probably a result of your um antidepressant.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: I I had been on Wellbutrin, which is an antidepressant for several years, on and off.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: The VA wanted me to be on them for the rest of my life.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um trying to live a sober life without alcohol and uh substance abuse, um, I would use the antidepressants as a way of helping me get out of that extreme depression.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: They stopped the world and let me off kind of depression.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: And uh once I would get better with that, um, you know, I'd get off them.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: But eventually things got so bad again uh that I had to get back on them.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the last time, I I think it's been 12 years now since I've been off of the antidepressants, and I've been blessed with not needing to have those anymore.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I treat the uh depression like a virus, like a flu virus.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: I recognize that it's there.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I understand what it is, I know it's gonna pass, and that's a big helpful thing, knowing that it's going to pass, and then um I treat it with exercise and um healthier ways, and and I don't need the medication anymore.
• 29:44
  unknown: That's incredible.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's incredible.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I don't know, I've got so many questions, but I think um you know we can we can land the plane, so to speak, here.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think that you are a real gift.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'll share with the audience that I I've known you for a little while, and I just need to say that you've been a real gift in my life and my own healing journey from some things.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and your willingness to talk about this.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, first of all, your willingness to heal and do the hard and scary work of feeling things like you described.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: No thank you.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but the willingness to do that and to continue to do the hard work of facing and feeling and facing and feeling um so that you can be free.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Would you say it it's been worth it?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: The facing and the feeling?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, because it couldn't have been easy.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it wasn't easy, but it is a healthier way than using substance and alcohol.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um once that's there and being left with another any other alternative except to feel and to experience.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: And once that's done, like with the trauma focus group, I saw how effective that was, then it became easier for me to apply that technique with everyday life.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: And what about the community versus the isolation?
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: How do you find community when you're in that level of depression or or trauma and you don't know what's happening?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: How do you step out of that and find community?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: How are you able to do that?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: Just like I mentioned before, just knowing what it is, treating it like a virus, knowing it's going to pass, um that just makes it a lot easier to go through, which is probably part of why we're talking about this with PTSD.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: If uh someone is afflicted with it, um, there is a healthy way to get on the other side of it.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that's part of what we shared here is is there's that hope that you can get on the other side.
• 32:18
  unknown: Yeah.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'll tell you, folks, I'm looking right at him.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: And uh he's come through the other side, and what a gift and what a miracle you are.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for your time today, Thomas.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: Appreciate you.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: If this conversation sparked something for you, or if you want to dive deeper, head over to soulknotskin.com and take a look around.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: Grab a copy of the book, Soulknot Skin, free resources, or get on the wait list for our next workshop.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you'll pull up a chair next time and hang out with us again.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: We're figuring out this world and ourselves at the same exact time, growing as we listen to the stories of others.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Let's keep getting to know each other.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: After all, we are in this together.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: See you next time.