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Why Does My Team Stop Speaking Up? · The Pause Before You Lead

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking about I I swear to God, this is like a real thing that just experienced just came rushing back to me.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: Is like, I am sure that I would come into the office so like excited and um enthusiastic and saying, you know what, I got up in the middle of the night and I I I came up with this idea, and I know we've been really stuck on this.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, I think I saw it.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's this and that and this and that and this and that, right?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: And as you're just saying that, and the person and the you know, sitting in the chair is like, am I supposed to tell you, like, I think that's, you know, your idea, not everyone's idea.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I can just see myself coming in and thinking, oh yeah, we're building, we're connecting, we're trusting, we're we're awesome team together.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's just steamrolling, right?
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like you, like you to your point, there's no room for someone to go, well, maybe, right?
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Especially with that enthusiasm.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because who wants to step on that enthusiasm, especially if it's the leader who's showing up in that way?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, and welcome to the Pause Before You Lead.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Alicia Saint, and I'm Heather Haig.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: Together, we've both led teams inside large organizations, and over the past decade, we've coached and partnered with hundreds of leaders and teams navigating complexity.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: We've seen, felt, heard, and supported leaders through the challenging and sometimes really messy parts of leadership.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: And while a lot has changed, many of the patterns that quietly take leaders off track just keep showing up.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: We work with leaders who don't want to lose momentum, but who know that clearer thinking is what makes momentum sustainable.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: This podcast is for leaders who are moving fast, leading teams, and making decisions under constant pressure.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: And leaders who know there's a better way to think, lead, and respond in those moments.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: Each week, we bring you real conversations drawn from our work with leaders and teams.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: Where speed matters, stakes are high, and the quality of your thinking shapes everything.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: So in each episode, we're going to pause just long enough to think more clearly, to see what's really going on, make better decisions, and build high-value teams.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Whether you're listening before the day takes over, on your way to work, or in the middle of a full day, this is your pause without losing momentum.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: So before we begin, take a breath and join us.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Before you lead.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Heather Haig.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Alicia Saint.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: And this week we're talking about trust cannot be built where judgment is present.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: So join us.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Take a moment to pause.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: We're just going to invite you to be thinking about where judgment might show up in your leadership, in the relationships you have, in the workplace.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: And uh let's kick things off with a bit of a story because this expression, trust cannot be built where judgment is present, for me stands out.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to take us back about 15 years now.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a mentor who used to say this in the training room when we were kicking off training for new wealth advisors building their businesses.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: And the essence of trust cannot be built where judgment is present at the time was very tied to sales, prospecting, building relationships with clients.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I kind of only looked at it through that lens at that time.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: What it has evolved to mean for me over the last 15 years is being able to see where judgment gets in the way of relationships in every aspect, particularly around leadership.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: And not necessarily an overt judgment, but more of a assumptions we can make in relationships where connections get strained.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: And when that happens, it's it's interesting how what could be a strong relationship can start to get diminished when someone feels like they're not being fully understood, like they can't bring their truth forward into the relationship.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, Alicia, as I share that with you, what's sort of standing out when it comes to trust and the impact judgment has on it?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I think it's it's interesting when you started with just having a moment to reflect on judgment, you know, and where where how judgment and trust interact and intersect.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I think about this context that you were sharing in as sales, you know, that's my background too, right?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: In sales, everything was trust.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: And yet there was so much judgment that showed up all the time because you're finishing your client sentences, you're you're constantly judging yourself and others, right?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: Through the through the conversation.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I think when you say that, I think uh judgment or trust, right?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: They can really be interconnected here.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: It can show up if you think you're building trust as um fixing, being too quick to fix, being too quick to make assumptions, jump to assumptions, uh quick to advise, um, interrupt.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, how about that one, right?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, finish the person, say, Oh, I know exactly what you're talking about, right?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: And then you jump in and um yeah, and just pausing for a moment and realizing that um certainly as a connector, right?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: My pattern would very much show up like that.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm building trust here, I'm building connection, but actually at the same time, what you're actually doing is possibly building more judgment and less trust.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: Less connection.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's I love that you sort of brought the brought in the lens of how we can think we're building connection, right?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: When we're when we're communicating with someone and and the excitement, the energy that's exchanged in that.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: You get me, yeah.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: And yet at this, if I'm feeling like you don't get me, and you're operating in a way that indicates you think you get me, how that can create a sense of feeling judged, even if there hasn't been an overt judgment.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I think about that sort of the contrast between, you know, overt and covert, if we just sort of stood with that in a for a moment, finishing someone's sentences doesn't feel like judgment as a label, the way we would maybe say, you know, um I uh I was, you know, looking for an opportunity in another part of the organization without sharing with my leader, and suddenly I'm leaving and it feels like like there was there was no communication.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's judgment that happens.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can't trust that person.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: They did that behind my back.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's sort of an overt judgment piece, right?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: But a covert judgment is that I assume I know what's going on for you, and so I'm filling in the gaps.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's it comes from such a good place.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: It comes, it comes in a more subtle way that maybe as leaders, we don't realize we're having that impact on someone else.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when when there is a judgment that's just existing in, I know what you're thinking, I know what the right answer is.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: And for me as an impact person, where that has shown up and where I've really needed to self-manage is from a speed perspective, this idea that if I could do it faster by giving you the answer, that that would help us both move more quickly to a uh a determined outcome.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the challenge with that as someone feeling like my own ideas, my own solutions, my own answers aren't good enough.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: You've already predetermined for me what the what the next step should be.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I can feel that inherently in my own system and having to kind of intentionally sit in the curiosity of, I wonder what their answers are for them.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: And this is a perfect place for a pause, isn't it?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: Because we all have just these automatic patterns of how we how we relate to others, right?
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: And and when you're when you feel like you're building trust and the other person's like nodding and saying, yeah, yeah, you know what I mean?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like you, you can get, you can miss all of those cues, right?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: And this is um, and there it can turn into, yeah, and you could hear how it easily can turn into judgment of other, right?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, we're building trust here, we're working really well together, look how connected we are, and I'm a perfectionist, and you're still not doing it just the way I want it to.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: And you know what I mean?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: And and let me tell you how to do it, and and right, so it's I think this is another great example of the power of the pause to just for a moment reflect how might judgment being sh be showing up for me when I actually think I'm building trust and I'm building connection.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a really hard one because we you don't want a leader to second guess themselves in a way that changes who they who they are, how they operate.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: That caring peace that's so important for leaders to have, we're not we're not suggesting that that's not something that you have.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think the recognition of where judgment gets in the way of trust in in those sort of covert or um uh less direct ways is when someone feels like when they do speak up and and and there's a I wouldn't do it this way, I'd do it that way.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Or that sounds great, but yeah, that sounds great, but like the the the the validating statement that that can that then gets invalidated with the but and the the uh it'd be better if you did this this way.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so with more things so what happens is is that people slowly and almost quietly stop sharing openly because it feels like if I do, I'm going to be judged.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it again, it's not like a like a that's a terrible idea.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we never hear leaders saying that, but it is the uh yeah, I like where you're going with this, but you might want to consider, right?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and the other thing that just as we're as I'm thinking about this, Alicia, is the uh where someone may come to the table and be like, I've I've been thinking a lot about this, and here's how I think you should approach this, right?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: So we maybe even just circumvent the that individual's input altogether.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: So there's the the yeah but piece that that invalidates, and then there's maybe the I didn't even give you that opportunity because here's what I'm thinking is the best way to approach this.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and so the danger is while as leaders we feel inherently like we're helping, we may actually be shutting people down.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: And we may not know because the silence is interpreted as agreement.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like if people were if people were not happy with what I'm proposing, they would speak up.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: How likely are you to speak up if I come in and judge your idea and shut it down?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: Even if you're just I'm thinking about, I swear to God, this is like a real thing that just experience just came rushing back to me.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: Is like, I am sure that I would come into the office so like excited and um enthusiastic, and saying, you know what, I got up in the middle of the night and I I I came up with this idea, and I know we've been really stuck on this.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, I think I saw it.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's this and that and this and that and this and that, right?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: It was you're just saying that, and the person and the you know, sitting in the chair is like, am I supposed to tell you, like, I think that's, you know, your idea, not everyone's idea.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I can just see myself coming in and thinking, oh yeah, we're building, we're connecting, we're trusting, we're we're awesome team together.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's just steamrolling, right?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like you, like you to your point, there's no room for someone to go, well, maybe, right?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like especially with that enthusiasm because who wants to step on that enthusiasm, especially if it's the leader who's showing up in that way, you know, we may have a little bit more ability to um express an opinion with a peer.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: But if it's your leader and your leader's coming in with that energy and positive, I you know, I see this a lot, and I know this happens even between us.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: One of us reads a book or listens to a podcast, and we come to this conversation with these ideas, and we're both so enthusiastic about whatever those things are.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's next to impossible for the other person to have any other response than just uh supporting and encouraging, because anything else feels like conflict, challenge, pushback, and you don't want to deflate someone else's energy ideas drive, but you can see how uh how easy it is to just go nod along and and reserve um critical exploration of a concept for fear of rocking the boat or upsetting the other person.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so it comes from such a great place.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting because I think when when that happens with a leader too often, people feel like well, they just tell us what to do and we and we just do it.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: We become uh uh implementers of someone else's thinking as opposed to like on teams where we're creating collective thinking.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I think, yeah, just using that as an example, right?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's like advice given too often, maybe too enthusiastically, you know what I mean, says could say to the other person, because I'm gonna I'm there and I'm like, I trust you.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm so excited to share this with you.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: I I know that together we can really build this into something great, right?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: So you can see how the leaders coming at it thinking they're building trust when really it's could be received as, oh, I see, you've already decided what we need to do here.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you've already made it clear that your idea is the best idea, right?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: So that you think you're building trust, but you're actually subtly actually introducing a lot of judgment, right?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: That that puts that person sort of back on their heels a bit.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I think, you know, it's as as you're explaining that I'm thinking, okay, in that situation, how could I have done it differently?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: And for those leaders that are listening to us and might be relating to this, how would how would we do it differently that builds trust without the judgment, right?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think when if we could look to at a team example specifically for this, when a leader comes to the team and wants engagement, like wants participation, wants us to collectively build something together, right?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: The shift is to come to that conversation without all the answers.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like so you can have ideas as the leader, but if you like, if you lead with those ideas first, yeah, who's gonna challenge it?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it becomes almost like uh uh operating in a in a different order, which says, I can have this really exciting idea, but before I go there, here's the question I want to pose to the team.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And whether this is vision work, values work, like what's our purpose together, right?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: If I come and I tell you, here's our purpose, I'm so excited by this.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Who's gonna say, well, is this the right direction for us?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: No one.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it curiosity says, what's the question to pose to the group?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: And really truly being open to all those ideas and no yah, but it's like, let's explain everything, every idea on the table is worthy of exploration.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think the the other thing that that that I have seen is when a leader does that, leads with the curiosity, but then responds with a yeah, but here's a better idea.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: The next time you try and do that again, it's not it, you you've lost the engagement.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got to be willing to really, when you show up with curiosity, truly receive it in an open, non-judgmental, all ideas are valid, everyone's perspective is worthy.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like it it requires more of us, I think, as leaders to operate differently in that way.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: How does what what does that look like for you, Alicia?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I I'm just really thinking about it's that pause, right?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's that again, it's a self-awareness, right?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: And knowing that here I am Monday morning and I can't wait to share this wonderful, fantastic idea that I have, right?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so that moment of like self-awareness, taking the pause, knowing I'm going to the team meeting, right?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: And being able to manage myself, right?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think this is a good place for us to um refer to the the judger and learner mindset, the Mayor Lee Adams work, right?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: Where if you truly want to come in with that curiosity that you're talking about and with more questions, um, that's the learner mindset.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: So it's coming, so starts with the pause, the self-awareness, the calming yourself down, the understanding the value of it's an exchange of ideas, it's not just my idea.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: And the risk.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: If I start with this enthusiasm, this excitement, and I had this brilliant idea in the middle of the night, I'm really literally shutting everything down.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: So it's, you know, the learner is like, huh, that's a good idea.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: And where might I be able to add my idea versus lead with my idea, right?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe the powerful question is we've been working on this for, you know, and we I know we've all felt really stuck.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: What might unstuck feel like for us at this moment?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's a Monday morning.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we've all had some rest over the weekend.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, imagine you're by your pool where you were this weekend.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what would unstuck feel like?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that that more curious, that open, that come at it with a diff from a different perspective.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then listen for where you can maybe br add some bits, right, of your idea.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: I it it's interesting because the pool, and I don't think this was intentional, but thinking about the pool almost as the metaphor a little bit, which is that sort of free-flowing, unrestricted, right?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: We're not rigid, we're not, we're not um evaluating, we're just in that receiving mode.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And curiosity feels a lot like the free-flowing movement in water.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, it that was just when I heard you say that, I had that instant sort of picture come up in my mind.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing that I noticed is um a slowing down of the pace of even speaking in that curiosity can create a slowdown.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: Connection can happen in that slowing down, in that sitting together in the space of the leader not always needing all the answers, but sitting in that openness that says, like, I have an incredible team of very capable individuals in front of me.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: And what might we come up with together in this free-flowing open space where there's room to breathe and to think and and safety, right?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: That psychological safety for people to bring their voices in and to offer a wild and crazy idea, right?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we've talked about the importance of psychological safety.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: I know that I know we'll come back to that.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: In teams, it becomes so important to not feel like you have to perform in a specific way or judgment will exist.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I know, as leaders ourselves and the leaders we work with, no one comes to those meetings with an intention of control, with an intention of shutting down creative thinking.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's where the danger of judgment can be so deceiving because we think that we're connecting when we're not.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: And people can emotionally disengage in um quiet ways.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it because it happens over time, we don't necessarily notice without really intentionally saying, am I showing up with some judgment right now?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what would that learner shift look like if I were to come to this conversation differently?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like you said, yeah, you just made a good point there.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think teams start stop trusting all at once.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's a slow drip, right?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's the trust erodes quietly, slowly, over time, over experiences.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and um, yeah, and it's that opportunity to just pause and and and reflect and say, wow, why is it all, you know, again, we can go into another topic, but why is it always the same two people bringing forward their voice?
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: What's missing here?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: And again, and I think the the learner mindset can help you with that.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: What what level of trust do I actually sense is in this team right now, is in this room right now.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: What's here and what might be missing?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: That that's needed and what's needed, and what's my role in that.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: But that only happens, and I know this probably sound like I'm putting myself in in the shoes of, you know, when I was leading, and you just feel like, oh my God, I just don't have time for this.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it's the remembering that the pause is a moment, but the impact can be immense.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: The pause is the moment.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I think this is when when we really sort of say, how do we, how do we support the growth of trust versus the erosion of trust?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so if we if we support trust growing within the team, within our environment, with it, whether it's with our peers or stakeholders, whoever it is that we're intentionally developing trust with, it's to recognize that when people feel uh when people feel heard, when people feel seen, when people feel that someone is given time to understand them, not manage them.
• 25:50
  unknown: Yeah.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: That moment to pause, that moment to make a choice, um to choose curiosity and that learner mindset over I know I can get it'll just be faster.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: Excitement, the enthusiasm sometimes.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: I've got this figured out, I know what we need.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that invitation for leaders joining us today to take a pause to reflect where where might judgment be present, where might curiosity support you in your next conversation.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Alicia.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Heather.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining the pause before you lead.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: If this conversation sparked something for you, share it.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because more leaders need space to think clearly in the moments that matter.
• 26:50
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• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: We shape these conversations for you.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Before you move on to what's next, pause just for a moment.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: And notice what might change if you led from here.