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Embrace Your Inner Conspiracy Theorist · Conspiracy! The Show

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Destroyed. Wait true good sance, get at you, good troth,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: I'm a check out the trans get at you than is. Hey, everybody,
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: welcome to a very special episode of Conspiracy the Show.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: What makes it so special, I'm the only one in
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: the studio, well, besides you, you're here listening, but not really.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: By the time you hear this, I will have left
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: the studio fucking hours and hours ago, probably days ago,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: depending on when this goes up.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: But don't worry.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: I'm not the only person who's going to be talking
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: on this episode. We are going to be joined on
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: the phone in a few minutes by journalist John Potash,
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: who if that name sounds familiar, it's because he's the
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: guy who wrote a book that we talk about on
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: this podcast all the time called Drugs as Weapons against Us, which,
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: among other things, is the book that brought us the
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: idea that maybe, just maybe Courtney Love is a CIA asset.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: And here's the thing.
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  Speaker 1: You're not going to come away from this episode thinking
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: that any less. This episode, at its core, I guess,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: is about embracing your inner conspiracy theorist and the need to,
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: in this political climate, take a little more skeptical approach
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  Speaker 1: to reading the news, especially news that is generated by
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: the government, but just news in general.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: It's crazy out there.
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  Speaker 1: But what this episode also is it's a really good
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: exact of how fast the.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: News moves these days.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: We recorded this on August second, the interview that is,
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: and as I record this part the introduction to the interview,
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: it's August nineteenth. That's seventeen days. At the time we
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: recorded this, Jeffrey Epstein was still alive and that comes
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: up a whole lot in this interview. And also the
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: cop who murdered Eric Garner still had his job. That
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: guy has since been fired, I believe as of today.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: But another thing that comes up in this interview related
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: to Jeffrey Epstein that is also an example of just
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: how fast things are progressing these days. I don't know
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: if progressing is the right word, but at one point
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: in this interview a theory about Jeffrey Epstein and what
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: he might have actually been doing at all those sex parties,
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: I mean obvious sex with underage girls, but the motivation
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: behind that and the end goal of it. There is
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: a theory that's brought up in this interview, again from
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: August second, that when I heard it it sounded like
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  Speaker 1: the kind of thing that, yes, seems plausible, and no,
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  Speaker 1: we'll never hear it suggested by any sort of mainstream
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  Speaker 1: or reputable and I put that in air quotes media
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  Speaker 1: outlet in any way because it is highly inflammatory. And
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: here we are August nineteenth, and that shit has made
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: its way into the media in the span of recording
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  Speaker 1: this episode on August second, and now here we are
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: August nineteenth.
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  Speaker 2: Two different h.
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  Speaker 1: No, no, no, not really sources, because this isn't a
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  Speaker 1: theory that's ever probably ever going to be confirmed. But
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: there is an article on New York magazine nymag dot
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  Speaker 1: com if you keep and score at home, called real
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  Speaker 1: Hedge Fund Managers have some thoughts on what Epstein was
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  Speaker 1: actually doing, and it's a fascinating article. They went out
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  Speaker 1: and interviewed, just as the title implies, a bunch of
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: different hedge fund managers and just asked, what did you
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: know about Jeffrey Epstein? What do you know about Jeffrey Epstein?
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  Speaker 1: How did he make his money? No one fucking knows
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: how he made his money. And it's a really fascinating article.
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  Speaker 1: And at one point they throw a theory out there
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: about what Jeffrey Epstein might have been doing, and they
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  Speaker 1: don't even say it in the article. They actually linked
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: to a Twitter thread, and we'll link to it from
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  Speaker 1: the website. On pops dot com. You can go out
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: and see this article and the Twitter thread, and they're
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: both really interesting reads, and I would highly suggest you
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: go out and look them over. But I also don't
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  Speaker 1: want to spoil the big Jeffrey Epstein theory reveal in
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  Speaker 1: this interview, even though I have mentioned it on a
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  Speaker 1: couple recent On Pop's podcast episodes, But hey, maybe you
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  Speaker 1: only listen to this one, in which case I think
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  Speaker 1: I've also already mentioned it, maybe on last week's episode
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  Speaker 1: about Jeffrey Epstein. But this week you get to hear
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  Speaker 1: the interview where I first heard that theory, and it's
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: one that's spreading and it doesn't seem that crazy. But
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: we don't just talk about Jeffrey Epstein during this interview.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: We talk about John's time working as an addiction counselor
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  Speaker 1: in Baltimore in the late eighties early nineties, which, if
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: you know anything about the crack epidemic, wild time to
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: work in Baltimore as an addiction counselor, and we talk
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  Speaker 1: about some of the things that are in his book,
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: the death of Tupac Shakur, death of Notorious Big, whether
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: those murders will ever be solved spoiler alert they probably
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: will not, and uh so many other things. So without
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: further Ado, let's get to our interview with journalist John Potash.
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  Speaker 1: We're on the phone with John Potash, the man behind
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: the book and film Drugs as Weapons against Us, the
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  Speaker 1: CIA War on musicians and activists.
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  Speaker 2: John, thank you for joining us. I appreciate it.
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  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me on. Adam.
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  Speaker 1: We've covered a couple different sections of your most recent book,
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: the one I just mentioned and the accompanying documentary on
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  Speaker 1: this podcast before, but if you don't mind, just give
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  Speaker 1: us a quick overview of what that book in general
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  Speaker 1: is about.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's about the CIA's project mk Ultra, which used
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: drugs as what they said in their documents were unconventional warfare,
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  Speaker 3: and it shows how that unconventional warfare was actually used
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  Speaker 3: on anyone who dissented against the CIA's racist, pro war
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  Speaker 3: agenda and hyper capitalist agenda. And it particularly used musicians
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  Speaker 3: to manipulate musicians to help promote drugs to hurt activist
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  Speaker 3: minds and it was a targeted also activist in the
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  Speaker 3: Black Panthers and the Students for Democratic Society, which were
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  Speaker 3: the largest anti war. It was the largest anti wark
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  Speaker 3: group in the nineteen sixties, and further show how it's
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: been used against activists up to today.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: What was your background previously before you start, because you
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: wrote another book before this that centers more around just
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: the Tupac killing. What was your background previously and what
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: made you start researching this particular topic.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I was into social activism out of college, and
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  Speaker 3: I was also a psych major in college. So I
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  Speaker 3: went to work as an addictions counselor in Baltimore City
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  Speaker 3: in the late nineteen eighties, and that's when I had
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: I counseled someone who said my father was a Black
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  Speaker 3: Panther killed by the police. And so I started researching
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: the Black Panthers for a character and a novel loosely
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: based on the idea of drugs as weapons against us.
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  Speaker 3: And so that's why I kind of took a tangent
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  Speaker 3: from that first book to focus on the Tupac and
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: write there the warl and Tupac score and black leaders.
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  Speaker 3: And so I've been working as a counselor for three decades.
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  Speaker 3: I got more advanced degrees and you studied at columb
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  Speaker 3: University both COMMUNI organizing, sociology, and counseling. And still make
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  Speaker 3: a living as a counselor because, you know, because all
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: the censorship of my work, it doesn't pay the bills.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course.
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  Speaker 1: So wow, you were So you were working as an
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  Speaker 1: addiction counselor, you said in the eighties in Baltimore.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, in late eighties. Wow, I started like nine in Baltimore.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's really the thick of the crack epidemic
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  Speaker 1: and when it first started kind of spreading.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, So I heard a lot of the stories that
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: The Wire was based on, because the writer of the
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  Speaker 3: Wire was writing at the same time as I was
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  Speaker 3: doing counseling there, So I heard a lot of the
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  Speaker 3: stories before they came out in the Wire.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And that kind of makes seems like it would make
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  Speaker 1: a natural transition into wanting to look into the CIA
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  Speaker 1: a bit more being in the middle of the crack
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  Speaker 1: epidemic when it took off, because that's obviously a big
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  Speaker 1: theory out there that the CIA was instrumental in starting that.
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  Speaker 1: Have you is that a thing you've looked into as
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  Speaker 1: part of your work.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, yeah, that was I mean, that was
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  Speaker 3: a huge part of my book, Jugged's Weapons against Us.
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  Speaker 3: But I mean it's even more than a theory because
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  Speaker 3: the Washington Post even quoted the CIA Inspector General saying
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  Speaker 3: admitting that the CIA was trafficking cocaine. So yeah, you know,
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  Speaker 3: and so when in nineteen ninety one, I was in
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  Speaker 3: the middle of Washington, d c. Street helping block traffic
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  Speaker 3: as part of anti war protest during the first Golf
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  Speaker 3: War under you know, President h George H. W. Bush,
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  Speaker 3: and and somebody who was working with the Christik Institute
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  Speaker 3: told me it gave me a copy of the Carry Report,
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  Speaker 3: the John Kerry Report, you know, our former high official.
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  Speaker 3: And so the Carry Report just showed the CIA drug
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  Speaker 3: trafficking with the Honduran you know army and all that,
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  Speaker 3: and with the conscious and so this stuff, this information
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  Speaker 3: was out there. You know, it didn't get far out there.
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  Speaker 3: You know, Gary Webb put it out there. It became viral,
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  Speaker 3: and then they pretended like he was making it up.
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  Speaker 3: And but you know, it's a lot of people did,
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  Speaker 3: of course here about it. And so it is a
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  Speaker 3: good chunk of my book and film, but you know,
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  Speaker 3: I do focus more on other aspects. It's a lot
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  Speaker 3: of people already kind of heard all about the CIA
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  Speaker 3: cocaine trafficking, you know, with the Nick Rougbin conscience, and
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  Speaker 3: I wanted to time really go into more detail in
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  Speaker 3: the other things that they haven't heard already. Right.
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  Speaker 1: The Courtney Love theory I think is the most fascinating
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  Speaker 1: thing in the book because it think it sounds so outlandish,
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  Speaker 1: and then when you read it, especially if you read
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  Speaker 1: it with any sort of understanding of what mk ultra
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  Speaker 1: was and how it worked, it all actually makes a
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  Speaker 1: lot of sense, which I think there's something to be
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  Speaker 1: said for how you present that theory in that book,
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  Speaker 1: because it really does on the surface seem like one
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  Speaker 1: of the wildest claims, and not so much after you
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: get into it.
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  Speaker 3: Thanks. Yeah, I must say me and my wife made
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  Speaker 3: me rewrite that chapter so many times to make it clear.
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  Speaker 3: It took so many rewritings to just get it out
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: there because it is so bizarre and there's so much
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: to it, but just it takes a while to really
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  Speaker 3: get a clear cut and I'm glad that it became
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: clearcut for you after I reorganized it so many times,
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: you know, to make it more clear. And now with
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  Speaker 3: this jeff Epstein stuff, you know, some of what she's
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  Speaker 3: about is coming out, and she's the only woman celebrity,
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  Speaker 3: you know, in his Black Book circled, and people like
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  Speaker 3: Detective Ed Opperaman, who was hired by one of the
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: victims of jeff Epstein, has said on his podcast that
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  Speaker 3: he's found that that Courtney Love. Uh, you know, what
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  Speaker 3: the evidence is out there and that he you know,
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: and some of the evidence he's found is that Courtney
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  Speaker 3: Love was recruiting girls for prostitution. Wow, it's a good
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: good chance that that's exactly what he was doing. You know,
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  Speaker 3: is the only woman celebrity in jeff Epstein's Black Book.
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  Speaker 2: Do you think the that's that's fascinating?
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Do you do you think we're actually going to get
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: all of the information and details from what's going on
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: with Jeffrey Epstein.
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  Speaker 3: I don't know. Uh, yeah, it's hard to say where
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  Speaker 3: that's gonna go because I mean, obviously the first investigation
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  Speaker 3: was was squashed, I mean, joke investigations. He's in jail
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: all part time, part time, he's done and just for
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: a few days or something, and that he's out, you know,
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: just hanging out in Miami, enjoying himself. So, you know,
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  Speaker 3: so many of these investigations have said that he obviously
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: has intelligence connections. You know, US intelligence is obviously, you know,
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  Speaker 3: protecting him, but you know, maybe also with Massade or
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: whoever whatever other intelligence around the world, maybe British intelligence.
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: I really don't know, but these intelligence connections points to
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: the kind of activities that were copied in m Cultra.
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: You know, another part of my book I talked about
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: the German colonies in the Latin American countries that were
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: operating with Operation Condor. And so in those Operation Condor
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: countries you had these colonies. And New York Times detailed
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: one of the colonies, the one under in Chile, and
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: it was started by, they said, a Nazi doctor named
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: Peter Schaeffer, and it had a They described it as
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: like a country's worth of arms and the country's worth
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: of documents, as if they had their own intelligence agency
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: in this little colony in Chile. They also had their
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: own airspace that Chile couldn't fly over. It was an
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: incredible amount of power. And so a number of countries
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: had these types of German colonies inside their countries is
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: almost if their countries were occupied by a foreign force.
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: But you know it was really a CIA backed force.
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: And so what they did. One of the articles that
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: detailed and had pictures of the colony said it was
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: an article on a you know, a different paper than
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: New York Times, wasn't going to reveal all of this.
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  Speaker 3: But what this other article had about this colony was
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: the fact that they were holding sex parties with young,
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: blonde hair, blue eyed German kids. And they were inviting
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: these all like tons of politicians in Chile to these
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: parties and then filming them having sex with these kids
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: to blackmail them. And that's the lea eating theory of
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: what was going on with Jeff Epstein is he was
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: using these sex parties to not just like entice you know, politicians,
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: influence makers, but to blackmail them. And this was you know,
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: this was thought to be one of the subprojects of
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: MK Ultra, you know, with with Chile and Operation Condor.
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: Obviously you know CIA was backing Operation Condor and these dictators.
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: I mean I actually know a guy through a mutual friend,
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: who who was living down there in Paraguay where Condor
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: was running and his father was high up in the
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: Air force, you know, helping out things in Paraguay so here.
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: And you know, now we see with Chile what was
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: going on was the same thing that appears that Epstein
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: was doing. You know, many you know articles have talked
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: about his tons of videos of things going on of
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: these sex parties, and you know, it's thought that he
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: was they this is why they were using them, how
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: they could gain power of these politicians, right.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: And that you know that that's a thing that might
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: sound unrealistic to if a particularly skeptical listener, but that's
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: actually a pretty common tactic, especially in Russia. I think
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: they call it compromot where you just gather as much
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: compromising information as you can about people that you might
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: need to blackmail at some point. So it wouldn't it
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: wouldn't surprise me at all if that was what was
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: going on with Jeffrey Epstein.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: Talked about this on another podcast recently. But Jeffrey Epstein
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: to me seems like an absolute horrific monster who we
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: should be protecting with every asset we have right now,
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: because if he dies in prison without us knowing everything
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: he knows, that will just be an extra tragedy on
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: top of all the tragedies he's been responsible for.
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and he and the word and details about some
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: of what he was doing are coming out more and more.
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: But you know, I have in my book that Courtney
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: Love was using real hypnol you know, or rufies. She
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: used it against Kirk Kobeine when he went to the
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: coma a month before he died. And so you know,
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: it's I believe that the same thing was being used
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: at at Epstein's parties. Is both the people that attended
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: the parties and the women, you know, the younger and
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: younger women, Wow, being drugged and in roof feed. And
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: that's part of how they accomplished what they accomplished too.
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: And they would start with older women make it look
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: like a normal party, and then bringing younger and younger
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: women till they got to these kids being in there,
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: you know. And so that's some of the way it
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: was done.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Wow, that is insane with I think this kind of
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: ties into what we're talking about right now. As far
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: as the all of the information about Epstein ever come out.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: At some point, do you think to get back to uh,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: more of what's in your book. Do you think it's
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: even realistic at this point to expect that the murder
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: of Tupac Shakur or Notorious Big will ever be solved?
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Like what would have to happen before we see something
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: like that.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know, we're I think just independent media
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: groups are pushing pushing the mainstream media groups more and
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: more to let more and more information out. And that's
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: why they finally actually gave you know, in this Unsolved
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: you know series they had that they made so popular,
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: they gave Russell pool more alia more credit than they
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: would ever give them before that. But you know, basically
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: Russell Poole did the definitive investigation on on that in
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: terms of just finding his fellow police officers at all
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: levels of death row records you know, involved in the
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: murder of Tupac and Biggie. But it gives a little
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: more cloudal damage. It was really you know, Tupac was
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: the national political activist and target. But the yeah, I no,
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: I don't think it will it will ever really come
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: out and you know, fully be accepted. But in the
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: A and E documentary that I was involved in that
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: I appeared in, you know, the they ended with with
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: al Sharpton's conclusion him saying that when people you know,
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: buck authority and uh basically offer you know, a radical,
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: you know, left wing opinion and and are you know,
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: so influential as Tupac was, authority does away with him.
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: I mean, he that's basically what he said in in
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: the last like minute or two of that documentary, and
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: that's what they concluded with. And you know, he's basically
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: was saying that, yes, the authorities killed Tupac because his
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: voice was getting too big and he was too you know,
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: too activists and too against the conservative authorities. So yeah,
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: it has come out.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: More that way, right, And I feel like the we
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: know what the FBI did in relation to the Black Panthers,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: like that has all come out.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: So I feel like people who discredit.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: The idea that maybe the government was involved in what
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: happened to Tupac.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: Also, I feel like the black.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: He was, he was he was head of the New
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: African Panthers right before he became a rapper, and they
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: were involved in Yeah, they were active in eight to
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: ten cities. So he was already a national black leader
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: before he became a rapper. And you know, and so
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: you adding that wealth and fame to is you know,
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: national activist leadership. It was obvious that they were going
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: to target him.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: And the there is a interview that I always point
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: people to that I think is still on Amazon, and
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: it was an interview with Tupac in prison right before
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: he signed with death row records and the things he
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: says in that interview like that. Watching that interview was
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: maybe the first time when I really was hit with
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: this feeling of, oh, yeah, the government killed him, because
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: the things he says in that interview are exactly the
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: things the Black Panthers were doing and saying that led
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: to the government intervening in that affair.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: To put it mildly.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: Right, and people, any skeptics out there, should realize that
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: this comes from, you know, the FBI documents outlined the
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: counter intelligence program and activists in you know, white activists
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: basically broke into an FBI office at night and stole
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: all the documents and that's how we found out about
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: the FBI's counter intelligence program. And they were targeting leftists
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: in general, but particularly black leftists, and they were murderously
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: targeting them. That's in the documents. And so and was
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: he swearing in was part of the Los Angeles FBI
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: co Intel Pro, and he said that, you know, he
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: knows that the co Intel Pro continued just under different
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: names at least until the nineteen nineties, and so it's
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: you know, it's pretty obvious that those tactics were going
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: to be used again in the nineteen nineties against black leadership.
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: It's a clear cut to me.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would, I would agree with that.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: Do you think what happened to Tupac and Notorious Big,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: at least the details of how they were murdered, could
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: that happen today with everyone having a phone attached to
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: their hand.
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, definitely, just because of the fact. I mean,
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: look at look at Nipsey Hustle, what happened to him.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: I mean, whether it's called on film or not, what
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: they do is they grabbed the film and then they
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: confiscated and they keep it. And you know, you'd have
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: to not only have the phone in your hand, but
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: you'd also have to have it attached to the internet
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: or alously. You know, they did that with Eric Garner's murder.
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: You know, his friend recorded his murder and then they
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: they put his friend in jail for recording that murder.
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: You know, even though he got out there, his friend
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: was jailed for recording it. And you know, and you
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: know that police officer who was the most you know,
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: involved in choking him to death still hasn't even been
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: fired from the force. Much less you know, can make
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: to the murder.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I always I always tell people police killings
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: are a good place to start if you think conspiracies
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: never happen, because that's really all a cover up is.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: It's like a conspiracy is just another name for a
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: cover up basically, right right, And we see it all
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: the time with police killings where in a lot of cases,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: you know, the video won't come out for a few
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: more months and then we find out, oh, you've been
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: lying about this that whole time. Well that's that's a conspiracy,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: and it's not. It's not as rare as people make
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: it out to be. You mentioned, go ahead.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: I was just going to say that the idea, I mean,
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: you know, the whole the word conspiracy being associated with
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: irrational is just a mainstream media you know, the oligarchs
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: use their mainstream media for the to trick people into
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: thinking that you know, anyone who who even has the
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: hint of conspiracy is irrational, but people conspire every day
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: to do things behind the scenes. It's just you know, normal,
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: you know, it's just a rhetorical trick they use against us.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was actually going to be My next question
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: is the negative connotation around the term conspiracy theory or
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: conspiracy theorist. Do you think that was an actual effort
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: on the part of the government to make that happen
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: or do you think it just kind of happened naturally.
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: No, that was that was I've read articles that explored
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: that in the history of that and the way US
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: intelligence used that, it was a concerted effort.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's always always been kind of my feeling on it. Also, like,
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: I know, we did an episode about Alex Jones at
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: one point, and when Alex Jones first started making the rounds,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: there were other conspiracy theory rists at the time, namely
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: William Cooper, who was like, that guy's probably just here
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: to discredit us and make everyone else look kind of silly,
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: and I kind of I've always kind of imagined that
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: at one point in the early nineties, the government had
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: this decision to make with the Internet coming out, where
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: it's going to be a way that a lot of
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: information is going.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: To reach people.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: So do we tackle every piece of information that comes
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: out individually or do we just get ahead of it
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: and discredit the idea of questioning the government as a whole.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: And I feel like they went with that second option,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: and it seems like it worked pretty well.
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: It's crazy. I'm just very against censorship. And I don't
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: even know much about Alex Jones. All I know is
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: his info Wars and other people that work for him
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: interview me twice and the first time it got you know,
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: the first interview got about seven hundred and fifty thousand
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: views before it was taken off the air. But the
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: second interview got up to about twenty five thousand views
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: in just maybe a day or two or three or something.
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: That was just very fast and a week or whatever
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: it was, and all of a sudden it was frozen.
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: The views, the number of views was frozen and never
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: surpassed that after that. I don't know why, I mean,
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: know how that works. I would do that, but yeah,
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: they do those things, so I mean, I mean, yeah,
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: I don't know. Again, I don't even know all about
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: Shones' views except for he's you know, believes nine to
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: one one was a false flag and you know who
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: doesn't really these days. Yeah, that there was corruption around
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: nine one one. But besides that, I mean know his views,
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: so I can't comment. If he's anti government, I don't
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: think that's a good enough for reason to censor him.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: You know, Oh yeah, for sure.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned Nipsy Hustle earlier. There have been since
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: you wrote this book a couple of kind of high
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: profile deaths of rappers. There was Nipsey Hustle and Extentacion,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: both which I was shocked that someone was arrested right
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: away in both of those cases. That is a unique
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: characteristic for rap murders, for sure. But do you think,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: especially in the case of Nipsey Hustle, do you think
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: that it's a because he was a very outspoken activist.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: Do you think there is something more going on with
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: his death than what we've been told?
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: I do. I have heard about some of his activism,
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: and I do think there is probably more there than
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: we've been told. And I've researched it a little bit,
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: but I just can't say I researched it enough to
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: really be definitive, because I haven't seen a good enough sources,
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: I mean, some sources that I just can't really confirm,
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: did say that he that Nipsey, that the shooter of
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: Nipsey Hustle said he was paid tens of thousands of
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: dollars by a police officer to kill Hustle. So and
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: he was promised that he would not be convicted of
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: it and if he did that, and so, but that's
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: again it's like not the sort I can't say the
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: sources were so good for that. So I don't know
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: if it's true. But there's enough, like other factors around
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: it of you know, his activism that make me think
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: that it was probably in line with the other you know,
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: rap murders. And again, let me just say that this
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: case with Tupac, people have to understand that the situation
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: with Tupac, it was covered by a mainstream journalist in
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: Randall Sullivan, who wrote the book Labyrinth, who probably wrote
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: the definitive book. When Russell Poole went his investigation into
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: it to find as fellow police officers, you know, he
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: thinks please killed Tupac, and so you know, then Nick
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: Broomfeld did a good movie called Biggie and Tupac about
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: it also, but Randall Sullyan's book Labyrinth, uh three top
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: you know, groups in Hollywood tried to make movies out
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: of that. First first it was Selester salone, he you know,
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: was announced that he was making a movie where he
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: was going to play Russell Poole and that was ended
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: up being stymied. And then dream Works. DreamWorks had Leonardo
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: DiCaprio playing Russell Poole. That went very far. I was
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: almost about to come out, and then powerful forces you know,
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: stopped that project. And finally you had Johnny Depp playing
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: Russell Pool. I saw the previews in the theaters and
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: in about three different theaters this you know, last summer,
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: and they stopped it the last minute before it came out.
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: Oh that's incredible they could do that. Yeah. And so
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: you know, this is like just some of the the
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: power you know, behind stopping the truth about Tupac from
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: coming out.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that that seems like such an obvious that
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: that was actually going to be. My next question is
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: what are some of the telltale signs a person can
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: look for to know that you're being lied to and
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: the story is and what everyone is making it out
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: to be. I think that movie being killed three times
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: is a good example.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: But what are some other.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: Other clues you can look for to let you know
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: you should be investigating the story a little more?
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean something. It is the fact that in
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: the very beginning of an incident, like when an incident
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: first happens, you'll see evidence of what might have really
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: happened in the beginning in different media sources, and then
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: all of a sudden, you won't see those pieces of
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: evidence repeated ever again, as if they never happened, as
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: if they were never even said, even by the same source,
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: you know, like the New York Times might come out
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: with something in the very beginning, or the Washington Post,
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: for example, with when Tupac was shot in the New
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: York recording studio lobby in nineteen ninety four, before he
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: was killed, they said, in a strange twist to this
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: already strange trial of Tupac sexual assault, the same police
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: officers that first arrived at his you know, at the
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: sexual assault scene a year before in a different part
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: in New York City, the first to arrive in Times
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: Square when he was shot. And so the Washington Post
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: never repead that again as far as I could tell,
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: because I was living in Washington at the time and
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: reading it regularly, and so it's those are the kinds
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: of ways that they first come. Someone comes out with
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: something not realizing you know, how how much he's revealing,
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: and as editors say, you know, we're not allowed to
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: repeat these things again. That's what just what happens, you know.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: And so you can see that in most of the papers,
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: where in the very beginning you'll see some clues and
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: some good evidence and then the papers act like they
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: never said that before and they never repeat it again,
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: you know.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: So yeah, that was the very first episode of this
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: podcast that we did was about the Oklahoma City bombing,
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: and that was a weird detail of that case where
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: there's all these news reports from the day it happened
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: saying the ATF is inside the building dismantling a second
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: bomb that was found, and then that's just not part
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: of the record anymore, but those stories, yeah, the coverage
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: is still out there. And it kind of blows my
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: mind that the explanation we take in situations like that
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: is just, oh, well, we were wrong, and it's like, okay,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: but why were you so, why would you be? Why
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: were you wrong about something like that? And if you
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: were wrong, where did you get it from?
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: Right, It's such a clear observation. You know, ATF said
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: we were doing this, and know we were wrong that
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: the ATF said we were doing this. Why would they
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: lie about that? You know, it's just so clear cut,
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: you know, it's it's absurd the way they can do that.
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: They can just pretend like, go, we were wrong, But
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: why why were you so wrong the first time? You know?
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, let's sort of switch gears here. It seems
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: like since at least nine to eleven or at least
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: this is the impression I've always gotten that there's been
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: kind of an adversarial relationship between the I and the FBI.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: Does that would you agree with that?
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: Do you think that's a thing, And if so, does
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: it play into what's happening in the country now at all?
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: No? I think that's just theater. I think there's there
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: might be you know, whistleblowing agents in the FBI, like
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: Colleen Rally who who might be adversarial towards the CIA
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: because she, you know, tried to reveal some things that
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: she found out that might you know, make the CIA
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: look bad. But basically, you know, US intelligence has a
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: pretty clear cut hierarchy. And you know, jag Or Hoover's
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: even being quoted as saying, you know, when it comes
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: to the CIA, I you know, I can't do much.
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: You know, I can't. You know, they they have the power, right.
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: It's the hierarchies there.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: It's in the NSH you know, the National Security Active
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: of nineteen forty seven that the CIA directors the supervisor
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: of all the other intelligence directors. And people say, oh,
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: that's just for show. It's not. It's the way it
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: seems to work. Now. There may be may be naval
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: and intelligence might have a little more power these days,
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: who knows. But basically about seventeen it was just in
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: the newspapers the other day that there were seventeen different
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: intelligence you know agencies, and so there's just they do
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: you know, work together when so many operations and to
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: cover up so much, and that's why we have perpetual
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: war like the oligarchs won, and often there's perpetual wars
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: are for resources such as opium fields of Afghanistan or
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: the cocaine you know area growing best cocaine growing areas
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: down Latin America, and there's this you know, and of
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: course the oil fields and those are some of the
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: reasons you know, for our wars.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: So right, yeah, it when it comes to skeptics, we've
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: sort of talked about this already, but when it comes
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: to a person who is just skeptical of the idea
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: of conspiracy theories in general, is there one particular case
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: that you would point a person too as kind of
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: a primer on, well, we know this happened, so why
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: would you put other things past the government?
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: For me, it's mk ulture.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: That's I think why I'm so into this book because
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: that was good. That was a thing where you know,
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: we came out and at first, after everyone shredded all
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: their documents after Watergate, the government kind of acknowledges mk
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: ulture was a thing, but downplays how big it was.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: And then we find these twenty thousand other documents that
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: were stored in the wrong place and they have to
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: come out and go all right, yeah.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: You got us. It was pretty big.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: So that's one thing I always point to point people
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: to as proof that, yes, these things do happen. Is
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: there any anything along those lines that you would also
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: direct people to.
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know, which, you know what I would
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: direct people towards in particular, because I mean part of
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: me would say the JFK assassination. The problem is is
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: that mainstream media is so muddled all this. You know, ah,
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: so much evidence that you know about JFK's assassination that
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: it's just hard. Yeah, it's hard to know. I mean,
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: I'm glad, I'm glad you think m Kiltra is what
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: you point people to. I think it is incredibly important.
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: I think the you know, the Senate Committee report on
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: mkulture really outlines so much of this. And the problem though,
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: is is that I guess, you know, so few people
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: have seen the scent. You know, Church committeers report on
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: Mkultra and you know, and it's still even that Church
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: Committee reports stays a little bit abstract and doesn't get
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: into all the details that I get into. And you know,
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: even the you know, the documents that were found there
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: was about thirty thousand documents that were found on m Kultra.
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: But uh, the people that have read through all those
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: documents are people like Martin Lee. You found the fairness
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: and accuracy in reporting, who wrote the book Acid Dreams,
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: which is, you know, I think one of the best
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: books on just the LSD. He's part of them, Kiltra,
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: but he said that that based on the documents that
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: that he went over and his co author went over there,
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: they appear to be about ninety percent of the documents
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: are gone and these are about ten percent of the documents.
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: He says. It appears to be three hundred thousand documents
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: and we got to read about thirty of thirty thousand
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: of them, you know.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's it's likely that we still don't know
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: the whole scope of how big that operation was, right
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: and it Yeah, it seems unlikely to me that we
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: would pump that much money and spend so many years
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: looking into it if none of it was working and
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: we were making.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: No progress at all like it. It's it just seems
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: inconceivable to me.
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, over twenty over twenty years of it running, and
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: at least twenty years that was documented by the Church
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: committees and Church committee, and you know, it's just so
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: many subprojects that were or they have you know, one
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: file one hundred and forty nine subprojects, you know, yeah, yeah,
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: and so many locations, so many different parts of the
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: country and the world when it was running.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think we're getting close to an MK
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: ultra revelation kind of moment. When it comes to UFOs.
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I'm sorry to say, I just don't
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: know anything about UFOs. Yeah. Look, I've been interviewed by
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: a lot of people that, you know, talk about that
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: with UFOs stuff. The only problem I have is, I guess,
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: is the fact that because you could involve something outside
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: of our planet, it just can be so beyond our
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: knowledge that it's just hard to disprove or or prove.
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: And that's the problem, you know, when it comes to UFOs.
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: I just don't know. I don't research, and I don't
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: know anything about UFOs. I'm sorry to say.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: I bring it up because there were there have been
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: two New York Times articles in the past. There was
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: one in two thousand and seventeen, another one again in
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: May nine eighteen, where they're I mean, it goes into
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of detail about this program that we've been
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: funding for years that was headed by Harry Reid and
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: Robert Bigelow, who is kind of on the cutting edge
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: of space travel in the United States but also runs
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: the Budget Suites motel.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: Chain, which seems alarming to me.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: But I feel like that's the same sort of thing
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: where these two different articles made it really clear that
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: we've been putting a lot of money over the years
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: into researching what these two are are working on, and
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: I feel like that's always kind of good evidence that
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: there's something there.
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely it could be. I don't know. I just
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: don't know much about it.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, no problem. So last question, I'll let you
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: get out of here.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: This is a heavy one.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: Most of your work centers around covering organizations that we're
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: accusing of literally killing people who get in their way.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: Do you do you or have you ever felt like
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: your own life was in danger as a result of
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: covering the stuff?
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, sure. I you know, something happened in my
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: house the other day that worried me. Things have happened
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: with my phone, things have happened with my computer, things
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: have happened with my mail. There's been a lot of
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: things that have happened that, yeah, do make me fear
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: for my life. And you know, I started talking with
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: another researcher who was doing some of overlapping research as
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: I was doing, and he all of a sudden, you know,
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: a month or two before he got warned that people
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: that do you know, talk about the stuff he talks about,
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: could suddenly find themselves with stage four cancer. This is
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: David mcgallan, and all of a sudden he gets diagnosed
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: with stage four cancer a week after we had started talking,
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: and she dies a few dies three to three or
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: four months later. And so yeah, I'm always a little concern. Sure, yeah,
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: you know, so you do, Yeah, just keep moving forward
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: and try to try.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: To hope for the best, you know, Yeah, for sure.
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: But these days there actually is so many people, so
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: many people are coming out from coming out of from
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: so many different angles, with so many different you know,
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: attempts to uncover what's happening with US intelligence. You know,
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: podcasts like yours, researchers like them. Just off the top
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: of my head, a guttamed Donald Jefferies does somewhere researches
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: me one different other you know, kind of overlapping areas.
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: There's just loads of people at tacking this from a
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: lot of different angles. So I think that hopefully it's
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: diffusing you know, my any importance of my work right
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: so that they don't think that, you know, so I
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: don't get targeted.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: But we'll see, Yeah, I feel like that.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: That's I talk about the idea of conspiracy theories in
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: general being just discredited across the board. And I bring
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: it up so much because I feel like that's sort
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: of what we need to make reporting on things like
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: this safer for people. Is there needs to be a
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: general shift in consciousness toward the idea.
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: It's happening toward the idea it seems like it's happening, though.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: I agree, yeah, yeah, And I think I think as
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: opposed to uh, calling conspiracy theorists crazy people, I feel
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: like we're at a point in history where we should
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: more be in a perpetual state of questioning the government
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: and what they're doing, Like everything that comes out, we
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: should have a few questions.
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: And uh yeah, I really agree with you. And I
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: think I think with the new technologies in terms of
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: all the like new film and television kind of groups.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: And you know, Amazon's a weird mixed bag. I mean,
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: I know they're they're you know, they do at there
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: are a lot of bad things about Amazon, but they
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: bought out Washington Post and all of a sudden, have
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: an article from one of my sources about you know,
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: who really killed Robert Kennedy? And it actually went extremely far.
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: That article went as far as my book did about
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: who really killed Robert Kennedy. So it's it's is. Things
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: seem to be breaking a bit now, So I think
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: there's hope.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I certainly hope so. And I appreciate you talking
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: to us today. I appreciate the work you're.
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: Doing, and you were thanks for having me one.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, keep at it, man, and be safe.
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: You do the same. Take care now.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: All right, thank you, talk to talking to you.
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: Yep, thank you.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: I told you it was going to be interesting again.
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: If you want to see a couple more sources speculating
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: on the idea that maybe Jeffrey Epstein was just running
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: a big blackmailing ring for who, we have no fucking idea.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: Check out on pops dot com. We linked to a
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: few sources there. Check out John's book Drugs as Weapons
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: against Us and the accompanying documentary. We linked to both
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: of those on the website. And thanks everybody, that's an episode.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: We love you.