Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #192: Decoding Gluten Myths and Dodging Mold: Dr. Osborne’s Guide to Better Health

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Episode #192: Decoding Gluten Myths and Dodging Mold: Dr. Osborne’s Guide to Better Health · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: The oldest documented case of celiac disease is 2,500 years BC.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't, we don't, we can't just dismiss, you know.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think we could all have the argument that glyphosate and the way we grow grains and the way we process grains and the chemical additives and everything else that we do to them makes them more volatile and makes people more prone to having side effects when they consume them.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Gluten is a very real problem.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of Beyond Labels.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Dr.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Stina McKella, and I'm here with our favorite farmer, Joel Salatin.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: And today we have a special guest.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: His name is Dr.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Peter Osborne.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: He is one of the most sought-after alternative and nutritional experts in the world.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: He is renowned for his leading authority on glutins, mold, and autoimmune diseases.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: He holds a doctor of chiropractic and a doctor of pastoral science, specializing in functional nutrition, and is board certified with the American Clinical Board of Nutrition.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: He's the best-selling author of No Grain, No Pain, which was actually adapted into a widely acclaimed PBS special that aired nationally.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: He serves as the clinical director at Origins Healthcare in Texas, is the founder of the Gluten Free Society, and he sits on the advisory board of Functional Medicine University.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: He's also the creator of the Autoimmune Revolution, which is a comprehensive online educational series where he hosts more than 40 of the world's foremost experts on disease and nutrition.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: And this December, Dr.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Osborne will release a groundbreaking documentary that's titled Mold Jacked How Mold Steals Your Home, Health, Hope, and Wealth.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: He aims to shed light on an issue that affects countless individuals, but is seldomly discussed in the mainstream.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: And he is here today to give us a special sneak peek into the wealth of knowledge that he has accumulated while making this new documentary.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Osborne, welcome to the program.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks for having me.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pleasure to be here.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, okay, so before we jump into mold, Dr.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Osborne has graciously given his time to answer listener questions that have been sent in after Joel and I recorded a podcast about glutens.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, Joel, I think we recorded a couple podcasts about glutens.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: So our listener base has a good background already, but they have some specific questions that I think Dr.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Osborne can kind of tease out the nuances for us.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: So the first question for Dr.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Osborne is okay, what about ancient grains?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Can somebody who has gluten sensitivity consume ancient grains without having any problems?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: I heard these grains have less gluten and they've been consumed for thousands of years, and people back then didn't have problems with gluten.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: So why can't we just consume ancient grains even if we're gluten sensitive?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let me correct the statement from what you've heard.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: What you've heard is that people don't have problems with ancient grains because they're magically ancient, and people back then just didn't have magical problems.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just not true.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: The oldest documented case of celiac disease is 2,500 years BC.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't, we don't, we can't just dismiss, you know, I think we could all have the argument that glyphosate and the way we grow grains and the way we process grains and the chemical additives and everything else that we do to them makes them more volatile and makes people more prone to having side effects when they consume them.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Gluten is a very real problem.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of people self-diagnose.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: So they say, hey, I cut out, I cut out these grains and I felt better.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then I tried Emmer or Eincorn and it didn't bother me as bad or didn't bother me at all.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, are those people truly gluten sensitive?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think that's the conversation that needs to be teased out.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's an important question to ask because if you're not really gluten sensitive, then eating less processed food is a good idea for your health, whether it's you know, processed grain or processed other types of foods.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so, um, but okay, so there's part that's part of the conversation.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: The other part of the conversation is MRI and corn uh and some of the other what we're labeling as ancient grains are not gluten-free.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're gluten sensitive, you're still gonna react to them.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen people react to them.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: We've had evidence directly in the clinic of people actually reacting to them, like testing this hypothesis out, which, you know, I think people should, uh, if you're gonna experiment with anything, experiment with yourself, right?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you're if you're not into restricting your diet, you know, from grains for, you know, for the end of days for the rest of your life.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: But um, we've seen people react to them regardless.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's also issues with how they're grown and how they're stored.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, so in some cases, I know I know some online folks are are doing like classes and how to properly prepare grains and how to do it fresh, right?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you store grains, they oxidize.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And when you oxidize seeds, you get rancid oil.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: And when you get rancid oil, you get free radical formation and oxidation in the body, and it's not good for you.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that has nothing to do with gluten.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: When you store grains improperly, you get mold growing on them.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: You get mycotoxin contamination of them.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, when you store grains improperly, they they become damaged.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you grow, and then how you grow them, if you're using nitrogen fertilizer, we know nitrogen increases gluten quantity in grains just from a farming perspective.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: We know how much water goes into a crop can influence and affect the quantity of gluten in a grain.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: We also know that there are there are quantity issues at play.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, like some people's resiliency to tolerate smaller amounts where symptoms may not be super obvious, that that can happen.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so they they don't feel immediately bad with the consumption.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean that they're not inciting inflammation internally.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's a there's a whole realm of scientific research on something called silent celiac disease, which is you eat gluten your whole life, and then one day you get a diagnosis of cancer.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and there were no prodrome symptoms of you know, gastrointestinal discomfort, pain, bloating, bloody diarrhea, or mucus in the stool.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: You just got cancer instead.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it was silent the whole time.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, this this connotation of silent celite disease is very real and very dangerous.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it goes back to um there's a lot of variables here.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we could answer this question definitively by making one statement that gluten sensitivity doesn't exist, it's just the way we've done our grains.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't think that's a valid point.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think there are valid parts to that point, and I think many people self-diagnose with gluten sensitivity.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so maybe going that other direction is the right move for them because they're not actually gluten sensitive.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: So they're we're not worried about the gluten component of the grain.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I really appreciate that nuanced answer.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um one of the first uh um what uh a conference I spoke at in Canada many, many years ago, the author of uh Wheatbelly, uh Wheatbelly was there.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, his his take is that as we shorten grain and quit allowing it to sit in a shock and and lightly ferment with the dews during the dry down process.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: He went at it from you know from that standpoint.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um but you're you're even coming at it from additional threads into that fabric.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, you know, it's like any of these things, the the more the more we know, the more we learn.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: But um certainly, I think I don't want to put words in your mouth.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: You would agree though, although that ancient, that that first um that's fascinating.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know that, that uh the first celiac disease was documented in 2500 BC.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's uh that's a long time ago.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: But what but but are we in agreement that it does seem to have gotten worse in the 20th century?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: No doubt, no doubt about it.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think I think if we go back just you know 30 or 40 years and we look at autoimmune incidents, you know, there there was a time where autoimmune disease, what is that?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, and now we have estimations is as much as you know um seven, one in seven people now have some form of autoimmunity.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's definitely an exponential dropping.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and so there are a lot of factors.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: I I think there's a ton of factors.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: One one of the biggest factors, in my opinion, is just quantity of grain consumption as a whole.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I can't remember, I think this was Alicio Fasana who published this or or spoke of it because I was at one, I attended one of his lectures.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: And he's he, if you don't know who he is, he's the um he's a Harvard researcher that actually um we could probably credit him for identifying leaky gut.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: He discovered that certain types of bacterial toxins could, you know, could blow microscopic holes through the gut lining and create permeability.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: But he was talking about just quantification of of grain consumption as a total count of total calories, right?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's somewhere in the neighborhood of like 60 to 70 percent of the total calories in the standard American diet come from wheat.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and so when you look at that statistic, you think, okay, what was it in 1900?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: What was it, you know, in 1930 and 1950?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't think we know the answer fully to that question, but um, I know when I grew up, just in my own personal anecdote, you know, grain was not the staple.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: Everything wasn't made out of dough.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but in today's world, what we do is we reshape grain in all its different forms and fashions: pasta, breads, pizza, crust, you know, um, noodles.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Breakfast cereal.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Breakfast cereal.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: My goodness.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: We coat our fried food in it.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, there's just so many ways to put it in.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: And to save money, people add, you know, add grains to meatloaf, right?
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: To to thicken it up and use less meat.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so you just have a total greater consumption.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: And there are some researchers that also believe that even if you're not gluten-sensitive, that the protein gluten itself is very difficult on the human digestion tract.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just very hard for humans to digest it well.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so, what happens when you dump a ton of protein that's a challenge to the digestive tract, and you put that digestive tract under duress while simultaneously we we have many, many environmental exposures that cause a decimation of the human microbiome, which is largely responsible.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think, I think the human microbiome is more responsible for our digestion than I do our pancreas and our digestive enzyme production and our stomach acid production.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think the microbes play a much greater role.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: We're learning, the more we research them, the more we understand these guys are critical for helping us have a diversity of capacity to digest an array of different foods.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: A classic example is you look at um the new study that came out recently in Nature showing that urban living caused a tremendous reduction in the diversity of the microbiome.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: And they're tracking this now.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: And some people are suspecting that the reason so many people are succeeding at with a carnivore diet, right?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not even just a grain-free diet, but like only meat, um, is because there are these particular individuals have decimated microbiomes that don't have the capacity to really digest a lot of the plant material.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we had remember Joel, we had Dr.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Natasha um Campbell McBride on from the Gaps diet, and she was saying the same thing that in they have now children's protocols in her practice where the children are just eating meat because they're having a difficult time digesting the fruits and vegetables.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it falls in line with exactly what you're saying and what the research is showing.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I want to circle back to make sure we answer the question from a listener uh because I got a lot of questions sent in about um Sue Becker.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure if you're familiar with her, Dr.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Osborne.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, Sue Becker is um really big into grains and it's the way that you soak them and or not soak them, sorry, the way you mill them freshly and eat them.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: So she's saying that it's actually not gluten that's a problem.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's that we don't eat the freshly milled ancient grains, and that the problem is in the way that the modern grains are processed and then ingredients are added to them and like bleaching and stuff.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that um we eat these grains long after they've been milled, which means they're oxidized and devoid of the beneficial nutrients, like the vitamins, which I mean, I don't disagree with that.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what she's saying is that according to her, there are people who have tested to be gluten sensitive and then and then they'll switch from the grocery store bread to now freshly milling their own ancient grains, and they're saying they've healed from different autoimmune and digestive um disorders.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: So how do we how do you explain that occurrence that they're seeing?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and she's got testimonials posted on her website of people saying the same the same phenomena is happening to them.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: I would just say publish your data.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Publish your data that these people were confirmed, either confirmed celiac or confirmed gluten sensitivity through relevant testing.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm I'm very open to to any possibility.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Science has never really truly settled.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm I'm waiting for somebody to to thoroughly prove me totally wrong.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and if they do, we have a whole new diverse array of foods that could be opened up in a proper way, and everybody wins because as we all become enlightened together, you know, we we understand food and the relationship with food better.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: But um, anecdote is great.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't want to dismiss all of these people that are that are coming in and sharing their stories and saying, this is how it worked for me.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh n equals one.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Any good clinician can tell you that.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that what the person observes about their own health and their own life matters more than what doctors' opinions of things are.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, I would just say, look, I think she's probably doing really good work if she's opening up people to eating real food.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and going back to what I said earlier, look, processed grain isn't good for you.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Gluten aside, let's just put gluten out of the equation.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Processed grain's not good for you.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in 1943, the U.S.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: government banned the sale of processed grain because it was causing berry berry in Palagra.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: That, you know, about 9,000 people a year, 8,000, 9,000 were dying from these diseases that were purely preventable because of cereal.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, you know, if she's discovering a whole new realm of fresh grain and having people eat this fresh, real whole food, that's great.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's an advancement for knowledge.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: But again, publish, publish what you have, what you can show me where people who have confirmed celiac disease or confirmed gluten sensitivity are recovering by eating these things because that's not been my experience.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been practicing for 24 years in a clinic setting with patients, thousands and thousands of patients.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: So on the same token, she has anecdote, on the same token I have anecdote.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's somewhere in the middle.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: See, you know, I don't, I can't answer that question for sure, but I would just encourage anyone who's confirmed um with a with a major problem um to be cautious, mainly because what I said earlier, silent celiac disease is a very real threat.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes people get a diagnosis of uh of a type of intestinal cancer or lymphoma.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it and these did these cancers in some cases can be terminal, but that's the only symptom.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's the end stage symptom.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's been really well correlated to celiac disease and gluten sensitivity.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: There are actually 11 cancers that we know people with gluten issues are more uh have more prolifically.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: And again, it's not always something that affects the gut.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're if you're basing uh if you're basing your changes on the fact of of symptom regression, I think that's a great start.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: I don't again, I don't want to dismiss anybody's personal experience with feeling better, um, because I don't know everything either.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: But um I do know salon celiac exists, and I have seen cases where somebody ate gluten their whole life, didn't have a single symptom, a single problem, and now here they are in my office with cancer.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: And if we don't change their diet, we're not gonna change anything.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you know, to add to that, what I experienced in my own um life, and my kids experience this, and I have clients who have experienced this, is they'll take out like one type of gluten.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: So they'll stop eating the grocery store bread, for example, and then they'll switch over to like an eincorn and mill it themselves, and they'll start to feel better.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then it may take days or weeks or even months, and then the symptoms come back, and it could be different symptoms as well.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: So they'll regress.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I think there's even a term for that, like whiplash or something like that, some kind of rebound effect.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Gluten-free whiplash.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote about it in no grain, no pain.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and so that's the same thing that happened to me too when I um stopped eating like the corn and the rice, right?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: You stop eating it, but then you introduce a different type of gluten, so you feel better, then you introduce a different type of gluten because there's there's how many different um gluten proteins do we know of now?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: There's a there's that definitely over 400.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: So probably a lot more.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Probably so so I think maybe part of what's happening for for because I've been thinking about this a lot, and because it doesn't jive with what I found in the research either and what I'm seeing in clinic.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so what I was thinking is one possibility could be that these people are getting more nutrients, like micronutrients, when they're freshly milling these grains.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that's obviously going to help somebody going from store-bought to fet freshly milled grain.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then if it's a different type of gluten protein, for example, that's in there, they will the immune system will probably get a break from exposure to what they had been eating, right?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then it will, it takes a little bit of time sometimes for it to mount a new response to a different type of protein in the diet.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, or even a quantification reduction.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: If if you get less gluten exposure, you feel better.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, so you know, you take an ancient grain, they are lower in gluten.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then if you do things like eat them fresh, where they are more nutritionally dense, you're giving your body the mechanisms by which it contains and controls inflammation and contains and controls potential damage.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: So you're you're you know, there's there's variable factors within that.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: There's also um when you you know, when you when you eat less, you have less assault.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and so if an ancient grain has less and then you add sourdough, and sour, you know, the the culturing of grain, uh, if you will, or the or the fermenting process reduces gluten.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like we know that.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's not a mystery.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't reduce to below 20 parts per million.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's been the crux.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: This question has come to me several times.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, what about sourdough?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, it's less, it's definitely lower in gluten.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people do better with sourdough, but if you're gluten sensitive, you still shouldn't eat it because it has more gluten than 20 parts per million.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we ask the scientific question, there's a there's a scientific, roughly uh there's a scientific consensus on how much gluten is too much gluten to cause or perpetuate autoimmune inflammation, right?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: Now, because that's the question.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: People want to get away with as much as they can get away with.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: We all do.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: We're all that, we're all guilty of that.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the and the and the consensus is 20 parts per million, which is the size of a breadcrumb or or you know, a drop of water in a gallon of water.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: So that's not a lot.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and so if you're getting that consistently, what what you're actually doing is you're causing your body's immune system to react and to generate antibodies as a means to protect you.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because remember, antibody production against gluten is a means to protect you from the thing you're eating.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's what the body's doing.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: But there's when you have excessive antibody production over time, what happens is you get collateral damage to the surrounding tissues.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: So the antibody, it's like it's like an it's like going to war.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: If I shoot uh a bazooka at a bad guy, sometimes I blow up the bad guy, but I also hit the school bus behind him.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's collateral damage.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: And in that, if that collateral damage is to your liver, then you can cause liver inflammation and fatty liver.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: If that collateral damage is to your intestine, you generally get a celiac diagnosis.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: If that collateral damage is to your nervous system and it causes loss of balance, you know, you may be diagnosed with cerebellar ataxia.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, or if it's to your brain, you may get a diagnosis of epilepsy.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Look, there's a there's over 100 medical conditions that can happen as a result of gluten exposure on the immune system triggering autoimmunity.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the most well-documented cause of autoimmune disease in the world.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody disagrees that gluten doesn't cause celiac disease.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: And this is when I was in grad school, and I was in the VA hospital and rheumatology department and doing an internship.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: This was the fundamental question I had to the rheumatologist that worked.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that were, you know, my my you know basically my my um my um my overseers, if you will.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's the best way to probably put it, was what causes autoimmune disease?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: And nobody everybody always just said we don't know.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's just sad.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: You just have to medicate them.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so when I said, well, well, wait a second, what causes celiac disease?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, gluten.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, isn't celiac autoimmune disease?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, well, yeah, it is.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, don't you think then from at least a logical standpoint that we should start with a model of autoimmune disease that we absolutely understand and know what causes it?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, no, it's not the same thing.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I just got the runaround.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I started doing heavier research, I would pull research on rheumatoid, because I was in a VA hospital in rheumatology, right?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd pull research on rheumatoid arthritis and I would look at the the case reports of people with celiac disease, but also with a diagnosis of rheumatoid arthritis.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: And when they changed their diet, went gluten-free, their rheumatoid arthritis went away.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, okay, autoimmune disease.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: What's the central mechanism?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: What are what are the central mechanisms of autoimmune disease?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: We know what they are.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: I learned that at the VA hospital.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: They taught me that at the VA hospital.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: They gave me a book called The Primer on Rheumatological Disease and said, don't come back unless you read it.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: And when I read it, it it didn't, it the message wasn't these are the causes of autoimmune disease.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: The message was in this autoimmune disease, what we see is a lot of people are have a history of being exposed to pesticides.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: As an example, people with myasthenia gravis, a lot of them were field workers, and so they were being exposed to an inordinate amount of pesticides.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then we'd have another autoimmune disease where it's like, well, these people, when they when they eat gluten, right, they get they get autoimmune disease.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then these other studies that show that when people are exposed to things like toxic metals, you know, they were more had a greater prevalence toward autoimmune disease.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then we had other studies that would show like vitamin D deficiency increases the risk of the development of autoimmune disease.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so you had you had all these like you know different diseases where they had like chunks of knowledge.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: And after reading the whole thing and kind of thinking and milling it over, it's like, no, this there's triggers.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: And if I could simply categorize these triggers, what are they?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's food, it's chemicals, it's microbes.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Microbes mean like infection, because we know viral infections are sometimes the precursor to people developing full-blown celiac disease.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: We know viral infections can cause rheumatoarthritis to kick on.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: We know bacterial infections, gram-negative bacterial overgrowth in the GI tract can can cause autoimmune diseases.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: So microbes as a whole, mold is a microbe too.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so mold, bacteria, parasites, virus are all potential triggers.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we just use the term microbial, right?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's a fourth trigger, which is nutritional deficiency.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you look at those, and when I say four categorical triggers, it's those four things.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: There are other triggers.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's, you know, like stress can definitely be play a role in this, and you know, and and and and the mind can play a role in this.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people have had, you know, tremendous issues in their in their history that they're still trying to deal with, or they're stuck in horrible jobs or horrible relationships, and their soul is being drained from them each day a little bit.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're they're they're never going to heal or repair in an environment where they're where they're stuck in in something like that.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: But if we look at what's controllable, we can control food.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: For the largest part, we can control chemical exposure, we can control microbes to it to a great extent if those imbalances are wreaking havoc on someone, and we can certainly control vitamin, minerals, and other nutrients, either through changes in diet or through supplementation.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, when you when you approach it from that direction, you know, you now have, instead of having a hopeless, you need to learn to deal and manage your disease with very powerful drugs that we know are certain that cause cancer.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, now we can say, hey, why don't you deal with your triggers?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: And if dealing with your triggers resolves your symptoms and puts your autoimmunity into remission, okay, it's a win for everybody.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the powers that be just won't let won't let me say that as openly as I'd like.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like if I if I start talking about a lot of this too too in depth, you know, you get you guys know the drill, you get censored, you get strikes against your channel, and then you can't help anybody because when you're totally silenced, you just that you know, you have no reach and you can't help anyone.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: But but those are the four categorical triggers that we're certain can contribute to autoimmunity.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why when you're talking about Sue Becker and these people, what are they doing?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: They're improving their vitamin and mineral status by eating real food, right?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: They're taking away oxidized seed oils, so they're reducing their inflammation by not eating a processed chemical that maybe is added to that grain.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I see autoimmunity, it's never one trigger.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: There's never a smoking gun, it's never a magic bullet.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like go gluten-free and all your ales go away.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's not the way it works.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Usually people have anywhere from 15 to 100 triggers.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why we measure.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: We test, we don't guess.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: We measure because if we know they what their triggers are and we simultaneously approach their triggers, um, then the outcomes are far superior, far faster, and much greater.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: And and more, you know, because it's more comprehensive, it's more complex than just one food, you know, all ailments go away, or one change and all ailments improve.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I think when people make small changes, like just eating real food instead of fake food, I think they will notice an improvement.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: So going kind of going back to that original question, you know, just with a little bit more complexity and thought.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think I think true uh that I think you alluded to this, but just to drive the point home, somebody like Sue Becker, when any farmer as a farmer, uh, you know, the the people who grow incorn, you know, grow amaranth and ancient grains, uh, it tends to not be grown with chemicals.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so you have that you have that added benefit uh uh along with it.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: So you're reducing the toxin, the toxicity load on the system.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: It it wasn't the actual ancient grain.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: If you got if you got uh um compost grown wheat, you know, that would be a lot better.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you know, to piggyback on that, that was another question that came in.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Are ancient grains really ancient?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like the the question was are the ancient grains of today the same ancient grains that were consumed by Jesus?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't I don't know that we know the answer to that.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I would even argue this.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you go back and look at some of the new archaeological digs and finds that some of the things that are turning up, civilizations 12,000 years BC, did those people manipulate the grains of their time?
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: And what we're calling our ancient grains are maybe genetically modified grains from uh, you know, a prior historical culture.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's the truth, you know, there's a there's a romanticism about life that is because it was done then it must be better, right?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: There's that romantic notion, like things were better in this time, things were better in that day.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of people get get stuck and hung up in that.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the reality is if we're trying to be practical with it all, we're not, we're not living at that time.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's not practical, at least not currently.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think we can induce change by educating people, but it's not practical to tell somebody who's gluten sensitive to go eat this grain.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not ethical, in my opinion, if if you don't know their history and you don't know that you know, maybe a very serious life-threatening autoimmune disease, you know, could manifest in a silent way and ultimately lend to a fatal diagnosis.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: So um promote real food, but but also stay in your lane.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: I I guess that, you know, and that's maybe a little harsh because look, how do we learn?
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: We all want to grow and we all want to learn as people.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: So what does it mean to stay in your lane?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: I so I don't I don't want to sound harsh.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to I just want to say, be cautious.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you're following people online that are doing this and you know and you have a confirmed issue, be more cautious than just listening to a stranger who you don't know, who doesn't really probably have a medical training or a medical background or knowledge of physiology, pathophysiology, and biochemistry.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just be cautious in in that and and approach it, you know, approach it cautiously and and don't don't throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to gluten.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, one more question on this grain concept, and then let's go roll into the mold issue.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so this question came in from um Bob Baird.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: He wonders if has anyone tested corn after it's gone through the and I always get it's always hard for me to pronounce this word, the nixta malization.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yes, um, the process of soaking and cooking the dried um corn kernels in the alkaline solution, then the kernels are rinsed and the outer hole is often removed before grinding, and it gives you that soft kernel, um, the nix nixta mall.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what like masa or the corn dough can be made out of.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: So he's wondering has anybody gone had gone through that process and then tested the corn afterward for gluten content because he says that traditional American Indian and Central Central American cultures use that technique for thousands of years with no adverse effects.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: Again, how does he know there's no adverse effects?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: You don't you can't make that claim about historical culture.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: Historical cultures struggled with famine, disease, and every other type of problem you could imagine.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's again, this is that romanticism that because the ancient cultures did it, they must not have had problems with it, and that's nonsense.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: Our culture is one that is heavy grain-free.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: And somebody a thousand years from now could look back and say, well, they didn't really have those problems, and that's the way they did it, but they don't really have any inherent knowledge of whether or not we had problems or didn't have problems.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as far as nystamalization is concerned, when you take the grain, you have to understand what's where's the location of the gluten?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's inside, it's inside the grain.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: You remove the hole, you open the gluten up, that's where the gluten is.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: The bulk of that gluten protein is designed to feed the embryo of the grain to allow it to sprout.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's what gluten is.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's a nourishing protein that propagates the seed's ability to grow in the soil and and you know, and multiply.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, just because you you have that process on it doesn't mean you get rid of gluten.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: I I would argue you're not probably getting rid of any gluten.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now, has anybody directly tested quantification of zane in because zane is the name of the gluten found in corn?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Has anybody quantified that after nixtimalization?
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't seen any research studies specifically on that to answer that question scientifically, but but I would argue you're probably not getting rid of it.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you might, you know, if you're soaking it and you're in your um and you're fermenting it, maybe there's a potential that just like with sourdough, that you're reducing or having the the bacteria are eating some of that gluten as a fuel source.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so maybe you're diminishing it to a certain extent.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but I I can't answer that question with a uh with a high degree of certainty in terms of quantity of of zane after or before.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: So and another another problem with some foods is the mycotoxin content of them, right?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that we know that we have uh mycotoxin prevalence in food crops.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I found this article that was talking about they estimated that even 60 to 80 percent of the food crops worldwide had detectable mycotoxins on them.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I think mold is really this underrepresented problem in illnesses that we're seeing in adults and both children, at least in my opinion.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: So tell us how did you get involved with with mold?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: Why did you decide to spend all this time making a documentary about mold?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I've been I've been seeing people with mold illness for over 20 years.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've always I've always had I would say a pretty decent knowledge base on on mold-related illness.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: And but um but why I decided to make a documentary was because uh I built a new home.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: And inside of two years, uh my family was very sick.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, my dog died, my little Yorkie, Maggie.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we didn't know why.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like she was just having all kinds of intestinal problems, she couldn't keep her food down, she was running into walls.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then and then, you know, ultimately, you know, we ended up having to put her down because it's just we we couldn't figure it out.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: And she was like our canary, if you will, canary in the coal mine.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: But it but simultaneously, my son was breaking out in full-body rashes, just really strange rashes.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: He his stomach hurt all the time, he was depressed.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my my wife was depressed, she was so wiped out.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: Now, like my family, we I'm in the business of hell.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, you know, you can imagine that we eat well, we we we we practice what we preach.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so my wife, who exerts she's an avid exerciser and she takes good care of herself.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: And now she's on the couch all day, no energy, can't get out of bed, doesn't want to do anything, apathetic, can't complete sentences, um, can't remember words.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, imagine you know, trying to communicate.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm trying to here I am, I'm trying to communicate, and I'm having to predict the next word because it's like 30-second pauses.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a tremendous amount of brain loss and in and functional loss and cognition.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and and then later I came to find out, I didn't know this at the time, but um, you know, both both my son and wife told me after we got out of the mold that they they would have visions of killing themselves.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like they just wanted to end it.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: So and this was and this was in the last in the last 10 years?
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we we we we got out of that house.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Let's see, I it's hard even hard even to remember the exact year.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was 20, it was during COVID.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh because that was the other part of the problem, is trying to find somebody to come out and give um a valid inspection, you know, when everybody's running around with their heads cut off scared.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was a big part of the delay of of of diagnosing the problem at its core.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I mean, we we left that house.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: I want to say it was it was 2020.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: Gosh, I don't want to tell you wrong, but I I 2020, 2021.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'd have to go back.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: I have I have a whole note synopsis on the time framing of it, but um, but we were in that house for two years, slowly getting sick.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like for my myself personally, I gained about 25 pounds of of visceral fat.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, for the first time in my life, I had gynecomastia.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was crying and super weepy, and I didn't know why.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: I was just tired.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I quit working out for a long time there because I just couldn't wake up.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like I would struggle just to get out of bed in the morning at you know at seven.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm a 4:30, 5 o'clock a.m.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm awake, I don't need an alarm clock type of person.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we all knew something was going on.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: And our dog was the was the first kind of clue.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, my wife has a killer nose, and so she she would pick up on every once in a while, she'd get like a musty smell.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so then we we pursued, you know, having you know, mold inspectors come in.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: And our again, our house was new, so we we called the builder and they would send out their mold inspector, and uh, you know, they found mold.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: We at one point we had uh a test was like 9,000 spore count of aspergillus penicillium in our air.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: And if you know anything about mold testing and air testing, air testing is one of the most inaccurate ways to assess mold as a problem in your home, because you too frequently you get false negatives because air is not a good indicator of what's on the ground.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, a lot of mold spores will settle to the ground, they'll settle to surfaces.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: So when you're testing the air up here, five plus feet in the air, you're not really picking up on an accurate assessment.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: And even according to who's own documentation on dampness, uh, their claim is that you need a minimum of 27 air samples to uh effectively assess an indoor air environment.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so these guys would come in and do one or two samples.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: And even in the one or two samples, they were finding like 3,000, 9,000 and really great anything really greater than 600 is considered.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is there's no standards.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like the medical medical community, FDA, the CDC, um, OSHA, EPA, nobody will give a number because they know the problem and the scope of the problem is so great that if they give a number and people actually start objectively assessing it, insurance companies are gonna go bankrupt, builders are gonna go bankrupt, uh, because it's gonna open everyone up to litigation, to real litigation.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: So they refuse to acknowledge this.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like what with gluten.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: For for decades, they wouldn't they wouldn't put a definition on gluten-free labeling in the United States.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, anyway, so we we we found uh we found the mold in the air, and and the solution was we can't find why the mold is growing.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: Mold grows for three reasons.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: It needs a source of food, it needs oxygen, and it needs water.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: Now, your house is food, every house is uh oxygen is a given, and so water is the issue, right?
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: And in Europe, they they don't call it mold illness, they call it dampness, because it's the issue is is not about the mold so much as it is about controlling the water infiltration and controlling the vapor.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not always it's not always running water, it's not always a roof leak or a busted pipe or an obvious source of water, as it was in our case.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't have an obvious source of of water damage um driving the problem.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: Our problem was vapor drive.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: So they incorrectly installed our vapor barriers, they they didn't uh allow for proper weep holes in our brick.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they didn't install the vapor barrier underneath the foundation.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they didn't properly install the the um insulation, so the R values weren't what they should be.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: They improperly installed our HVAC system, it had air gaps and it had several flaws.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so what it led to was an inability for our home to control the moisture to such a great degree that over a long enough period of time we had this haze that we could see on the cabinets.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we had we we we have uh we have a our our our when our youngest or our our youngest son was born, uh my wife and I, you know, we were we were busy opening a practice.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: This was you know 24 years ago.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so we had we had hired a nanny who actually lived with us for a number of years.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so she's like our family member.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, even when my son grew up and we didn't need a nanny anymore, she kind of stayed on and and we hired her to help us clean our house.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so she was she was there once a week and and and you know, so she would wipe our cabinets down, um, at least in our main kitchen area.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's another area of the house that didn't really get wiped down, and you could see that haze more effectively in that in that area.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: And um, anyway, she ended up quitting on us, and I think she she quit because she was feeling bad by cleaning those cabinets.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because what happened when we got home from this was in 2019, we got home from a vacation.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my wife um was cleaning the house because her aunt was going to come and visit.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so she, you know, it's what you do when company comes, you make everything shiny.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: And she was cleaning the haze off those cabinets.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: And after the day after she did that, she was in bed for 18 days with a fever.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because what what she was in effect doing was she was wiping that mold and it was just sporating and the mycotoxins were were infiltrating her lung fields.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so she was down in bed for 18 days with a fever, and it took me out too.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't, I wasn't even the one doing it, but she stirred so much of it up that when I came home, I was exposed and I was down for probably a good week and a half.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I typically don't really go down.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: If I get sick, it's like a few sniffles and I still go, I still function.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, it really, it really tanked us.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then and then, you know, the haze just kept coming back.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so the solution that our builder presented was we don't know why the moisture, we don't know where there's moisture, we don't know what the problem is.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: We can measure the mold.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: And our solution is we're gonna vacuum your walls and we're gonna run a hair scrubber and and we're gonna call it even.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what they did.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: They did that a couple of different times and it just kept coming back.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's at one point the mold inspector came back and to do a follow-up check.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: So they were running, they had HEPA vacuumed their walls, and then they scrubbed the air, and then the mold inspector came in that that day he turned off the air scrubber.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: So this is how it happened.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: He comes in the house.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: He he and my wife recorded him doing this because we're like, something's not right here.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: So he turns the air scrubber off and then immediately proceeds to do an air sample, which is unethical as hell.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: You don't you don't test the air sample immediately after uh turning off the scrubber because if you just scrub the air, you know, you've got to wait.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to give time.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: If there's a mold problem, you've got to allow time for more sporation and and more settlement before you can ethically perform a sample.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that's this.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Guy, he gaslighted us basically and um and put our lives in jeopardy and danger.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we when we figured all that out and we figured out, hey, we we can't we can't keep letting these inadequate imbeciles, you know, assess our house because they're obviously not finding anything.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so we just had to get very forensic.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, I hired an engineering firm uh to do destructive testing on our home to try to figure out what was wrong.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: I hired uh an inf a forensic mold inspector, and and he came in and literally within five minutes had photographic evidence of mold growing on the back of my sheetrock.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was that fast.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: He just was that good and he knew what he was doing.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: And he didn't rely on air tests as a means to to diagnose the problem.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, you know, that's that's my kind of the story of how I really got into it and what could because what I learned as a clinician, I've been helping people for 20 years, but one of the biggest challenges with with mold-related illness has always been did the person actually get out of the mold?
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: Did the person escape the mold?
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're still manifesting symptoms.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're trying to treat them or detox them or help them get better and they're not getting better, that's always kind of the question mark in the back of the mind.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: And as a doctor, I'm not a mold expert in the sense that I'm a mold inspector or in the sense that I'm a forensic microbiologist going in and doing these kinds of analysis.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: I've had kind of had to become one as a result of not having adequacy around me.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, you know, we we we put together a team of very specialized experts.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've just want people to know this information because our journey was and would have been death, no doubt in my mind.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: My wife would be dead.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: So getting out of there only occurred because of my career and what I've dedicated my life to doing, which is understanding physiology anatomy.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: And um, had it not been me, we we wouldn't probably be here today.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, to me, the documentary is about helping people understand the scope of this problem and helping people understand the nature of mold-induced illness and mycotoxin-induced illness.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because mold is a hydra that can cause every symptom that gluten can cause.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because why?
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: It causes chronic inflammation, right?
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: And what are what are the symptoms of chronic inflammation?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: It depends on the person.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: But when you have slow degradation of your own tissues, you basically age faster and break down faster, and that can cause any symptom.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people are in mold and they don't even know it, and they're going to the doctor and they're being medicated, and they're not even having mold investigated as a potential plausible possibility of why they might be sick.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: So the documentary is really a project about that.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: I want people to know.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: I want I want it to be on people's radar the same way 20 years ago, I wanted gluten to be on people's radar.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: And um, what we're hoping to come out of this is that mold knowledge is just as layman as gluten knowledge is today for the average person.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so I I I've got I've got a Cena, I know you're brimming with questions too, but I I just have to I just have to uh jump in.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um so we live we live in a house that was built in 1790.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_02: And um and all my growing up times, the old the old timers in our you know our rural community here always say that when they were kids, even in the dead of winter, when it was zero outside, every morning they remember their mom opening the front door and the back door of the house for like five minutes and just letting air go through.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: And and then and then they closed the door.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, air, air is of course, you know, I mean, the the wood and the the internal house, I mean, it warmed right up.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't it wasn't that hard to you didn't lose a lot of ambient heat in the house by letting cold air go through for a few minutes because the there's so much uh mat thermal mass in the house that it immediately you know heats right back up.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um but he said that that was common, absolutely common practice, you know, in the in the in his memory, in their memory.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um so my my main qu I've got two questions.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_02: One is is we're back to the ancient grains, is this a worse problem now because our houses are so tight?
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: And and was your builder, did your builder make, did your builder cheat from normal building?
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, your house was inspected by a building inspector, probably.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh were were were typical protocols violated in building your house?
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_02: And did were you able to solve it with retrofitting it?
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_02: Were you able to ri remedy your house, or did you end up um whatever, demolishing the house?
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I I got several things there.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_02: One is is it are are our houses too tight?
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_02: B are the principles, the the problems that you cited here, you let this whole list of problems.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um do do most builders not violate those?
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: And C, did you what did you do on your house?
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let's start and first question, which is how how how bad is the problem now versus how bad it used to be?
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: I I think homes used to be built with airflow in mind.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and so, you know, before centralized HVACs were invented, you had to have airflow.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: You had to have ways for air to to move through the house because fresh air is critical.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: We know already, just from EPA research, that indoor air is a hundred times plus more polluted than outdoor air because of the chemicals we, you know, we we use on our carpets, our furnishings, our, you know, all the things that are in our house that um make it pretty are you know, are potentially toxic and outgassing at any given moment in time.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so what's happened over the last many years, decades is that we build tighter houses to save energy because you know everybody wants the planet to not be destroyed.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's a noble thought of, hey, let's save energy and make energy efficient homes.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: And in so doing, we've now we rely solely on HVAC systems as the lungs of the house.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of these HVAC systems have variable air exchangers where they're they're electronically programmed, the damper opens to allow fresh air in, just like you hear the old timers saying, hey, open the front and the back and let fresh air in.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we have HVAC systems that open a valve that let fresh air in.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, generally they're set up to a variety of ranges, but say five minutes out of that out of every hour, you're pulling fresh air into the house and you're running it through a filter, and then you're air conditioning it or you're heating it so that you're removing the moisture from it so that you can get fresh air exchange.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, mechanical systems break.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, they break all the time.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how many things have you ever had to fix, especially on a farm where you you're probably coming up with creative ways to fix things all the time?
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um people don't understand.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: They think I bought my house, it's good.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, maintenance, what is that?
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: People outsource all their maintenance, just like people outsource their health to doctors who don't know anything about health.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: They outsource the maintenance of their number one investment to strangers who don't really understand mold or environmental illness as it relates to HVAC systems in the home and the importance of that.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: So now so I don't I think the problem with tighter homes is that you have a lack of understanding of potential for vapor drive and for moisture to penetrate and stay in the house and allow for mold spiration.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: But but number two, I think another so part two of that is how why is this problem more today than it ever was?
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: Unskilled labor.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: Look, we we grew up with tradesmen, craftsmen that could carve a staircase, you know, and it was beautiful.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, the woodwork and there was pride in the work, and you know, it wasn't about scalability of a business model where we build as many houses as fast as we can, as cheap as we can, and sell them for the most profit that we can.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're bringing in people like I remember when my house was being built, I I should have listened to my intuition then, but I I I kind of dismissed it.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: I I walk in, they're putting tile in the bathroom, and and there's an arch that they're tiling, and and the tile guy looks at me and he says, Man, this is really hard.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought to myself, that's your trade.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like you should be skilled.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: You should be like, this is not really hard.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: You shouldn't be telling me, like, anyway, we I I did follow my intuition in a sense.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: I got rid of him.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: I said, We need to get another Tyler because this shouldn't be rocket science.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I want people who know what they're doing working on my home, but that's just not the case.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you've got unskilled labor, and so shortcuts are taken.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: There are codes, and certainly there are building inspectors, but the problem is what do you have to do to become a building inspector?
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and and and and and and this is no assault or affront on building inspectors, some great ones out there.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: My one of my favorite online building inspectors, I I I follow him now because he points out so many flaws that could lead to mole growth.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: His name is Cy.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: If you look him up on TikTok, you'll learn a whole lot about building inspection.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and he goes out and he re-inspects homes after they've been inspected because a lot of these guys are just we've I think Joel, I think we're in the era where we're gonna mourn the loss of true craftsmen and tradesmen.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because everybody's just trying to make a buck and they're not doing they're not doing it well.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: They're just there's no pride in workmanship.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_01: And this is this is translating into dangerous times.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: Especially homes.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: The the EPA and OSHA, or NIO, not OSHA, NIOSH already estimate that 50% of houses in the United States are water damaged, which doesn't mean that 50% of homes have mold.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: It just means that 50% of homes have had water damage, and so there's the potential for them to have mold.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know what the number is on mold.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_01: We we just we don't know.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think anybody's really researched it enough.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: But but in our case, we had a building inspector, but he didn't he found a few problems that we fixed, but he didn't find any of these really core essential defects that led to the moisture accumulation in our home.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so in our case, our house at this point we're in litigation.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um October will have a better answer for you.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: But um, my house is evidence right now, so I can't even tear it down.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing is, this is this is another reason why I'm doing the documentary.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like um, I I look at myself as uh, you know, I'm blessed.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_01: God has blessed me.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, he he's put me in a very tough predicament because you know, I I had to I had to buy basically buy a new home and put it up next door to my children.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: You're not you're not living in that house now.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: We moved out the day we found we got the pictures of them all.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: We moved out the very day.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't been back in um to live in it.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_01: I've been back in with work with chemical warfare masks and you know, and and tie deck suits and other things just just to to because we've had to for for almost four years, we've had to maintain the home, run the air conditioning in the heater, pay for that.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because it's litigation and they've stretched it out and dragged it out so long, you know.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: I've had financially, I've had to basically maintain two households.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_01: And what I was saying is you know, I'm I'm blessed enough that I I could afford to do that, but I shouldn't have had to.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: But to me, this is God's way of saying you better make something out of this, you better turn this experience into something that can help and serve other people because not everybody's gonna be able to afford to move next door.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_01: Look, I'm on property, I'm on a farm, so you know, I had the land to move next door.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: If this would have been my house in a neighborhood, what would I have had to do?
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_01: I've had to buy a completely entirely new house or or rent one, not knowing whether or not it had mold in it, you know, and so you, you know, then you go through all that, and so the the financial burden become can become quite great.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then you have to hire engineers and experts, and so you're spending you know an inordinate amount of money just trying to figure out what's wrong because the builder's incentivized to not know what's wrong and to and to cover up any kind of blame they may have in the problem.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_02: So the so the builder, right now, the builder is uh is digging in his heels saying it's not our problem.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's what litigation is, right?
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm assuming I'm assuming that because you said you were in litigation.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gave them a forensic.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm assuming that the builder didn't come around and say, oh yeah, it's all my fault.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, I'll build your next.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, no, no.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: So builders play the time game because they know most people can't afford to go out of litigation.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and also a lot of people with with when they're building their homes, they sign what's called an arbitration clause, uh, which means if you have um if you have a legal issue with the home down the road, that you waive your trial, uh, your your trial by jury.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and so an independent arbitrator gets to come in and be the you know, the basically gets to be God over the case, right?
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: What they say is final.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so that that whole process, which is supposed to be expedient, has not been it's been anything but expedient.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so you know, you you most builders know that they know that that system works in their favor because most people aren't aren't gonna most people just want to move on with their life.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like I just want to move on.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, I want to think about mold.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_01: I I want to move on, but the but the reality is the only way I can move on is to solve it and to hold the people that uh responsible for the damage to my to my livelihood and to my family are held accountable, and that also that um that the that this knowledge can make it out into the world so that people who are going through this don't think that they're crazy.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_02: Cena, I know you're chafing at the bit.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_02: We've got about five or five or ten minutes here.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'll I'll I'll um I'll I'll defer to you to to finish this off with whatever's on your mind.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, a couple questions.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, in your own practice, what's the prevalence that you've seen of people who have experienced uh mold exposure?
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the first question because people listening to this might hear the symptoms that you had and your wife had, and that that you know, the and your dog is just unfortunately died, which I was just starting to cry and again thinking about that.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_00: But they might hear the symptoms that you guys had and think, well, I don't have those symptoms, those sound really severe.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I must not be exposed to mold.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not a problem for me.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but I know in my own life, I had mold exposure.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so my whole family did in our house in Virginia, and I was the only one, I was the canary.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I was the one that presented with symptoms, and the rest of the family didn't.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I've had lots of clients who have the same thing, like they don't think they have mold, and then you get the right test, and then there it is, or even showing up in the urine, there's those mycotoxins there.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I want you to kind of kind of bring this down to the to more of a general population level of how common do you see this in your practice?
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe let us know what are some of the symptoms that aren't as severe that could also be associated with exposure to mold.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it's super common.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: I I'd say 40, 30, 40 percent of people with autoimmunity that I see, we end up finding you know, mold as part of their culprit.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um as far as symptoms are concerned, brain fog, mental clarity issues, cognitive decline, word recall issues, loss of balance, dizziness, hallucinations, electric shock.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, like if you walk around your house and you're easy to shock, you know, the electrostatic shocking, that's a very common symptom.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not talking about rubbing your socks across the carpet and shocking people.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm talking about like just normal behavior, and you're like, why am I so shocky all of a sudden?
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because it changes the osmolity of the blood.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so it makes people more prone to electrical shock.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but neuropathy, numbness, tingling in the hands or feet, um, mold largely affects the nervous system.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_01: And and so if we're talking about chronicity of mold exposure, now there's mold allergy too, and that's not the same thing.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, like mold allergy would be you're allergic to certain types of mold, and so you get stuffy, coughing, you know, coughing, wheezing, sneezing, red eyes, itchy eyes, which is part of what happened to me.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I did I got those kinds of symptoms as well.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so you can be a mold allergic, but also be exposed to mycotoxins, which cause autoimmune issues and nerve damage, right?
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_01: So there's just when we think when we break mold up, it's not just a water damage building, it's not even just mold, it's mold plus all the other microbes that grow with it and all the toxins that these guys can release.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_01: So in the case of mold, it's mold toxins or what are called mycotoxins.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_01: In the case of different types of bacteria like gram-negative bacteria, they're releasing what are called endotoxins, real more specifically, what are called lipopolysaccharides.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then you also have the byproduct of dying mold spores, which release fragments.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_01: Then these fragments are highly immunogenic, so they can they can incite the immune system in other ways.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: So there's there's a lot going on when you have an overabundance of growth of microbes in your environment that are concentrating your air, their your air, your breathing air with their poisons.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so, um, but but beyond that, so other symptoms, common symptoms, stomach pain, rashes, um, any kind of autoimmunity that if your diet's clean, like one of the things that we've really noticed, and this is specifically true to people who follow a carnivore diet, the vast majority of people needing a carnivore diet, we I have found to be in mold.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning somebody comes to me and says, I went carnivore and I feel so much better, but every time I try to eat a fruit or vegetable, I just feel awful and we check them and they're mold, they're in mold.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: And when we get them out of mold, we're able to kind of reintroduce foods again back into their diet that they haven't been able to eat for many years because um they're microbiome.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things mold toxins do is they decimate the microbiome.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_01: So remember, what is the thing about it like this?
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: What is penicillin?
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_01: Penicillin is a mycotoxin.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, it's a it's a it's a mold toxin originally discovered, right, on a petri dish.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well on an orange, because the orange, the mold growing on the orange suppressed the petri dish in the lab.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so the the doctor that had keen observation skills picked up on that, and that's where penicillin comes from, from mold.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a toxin produced by mold, and it's an antibiotic.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_01: Antibiotic means it kills bacteria.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_01: So now imagine you're living in in a basically in an aerosolized chamber where antibiotics are being secreted every day.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_01: What is that gonna do to your microbiome?
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: Just like we were talking earlier about gluten, it's gonna decimate it, and your ability to digest your food is gonna go down the window.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and and so meat is generally a lot easier to digest in terms of um with enzymatic processes and with acid than say the digestion that occurs of plant materials, because a lot of our plant materials are eaten and digested by the microbiome, but not so much the animal materials.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_01: So bottom line is uh I I know I I got off track there, but coming back to the center, um, mold is a hydra, as I mentioned earlier, and it can cause a lot of problems.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_01: Those are some of the main symptoms that we see.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_01: I would encourage anyone, I have a very comprehensive uh piece out on what are the symptoms of mold uh that people can read.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and we actually have a mold quiz too that I encourage anyone to take.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very it's set up with very specific questions to kind of tease out, you know, is this a mold problem or is this some other kind of problem that they might find helpful if they suspect they might be in mold?
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, one of my big symptoms was the GI.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_00: I would have um almost instantaneous cramping in my gastrointestinal tract, like so bad that it keeps you awake and then pain, like pain in down my down my arm, one arm in particular.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, luckily I was educated on mold.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I was able to identify it as mold, but I don't, those aren't necessarily symptoms that most people walking around would say, Oh, I must have mold exposure because I have cramping and pain in my arm, you know.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_00: So to your point, it could be really varied.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and oftentimes you need somebody to help you connect those dots.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_00: The question about I I love the tangent you went on with the carnivore diet.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_00: So getting somebody out of the mold exposed home, and then you know, they're on the carnivore diet, and then you can add in more foods, like more fruits and vegetables.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um what if is there is there a situation in Which say somebody gets removed from the house, like totally moves out, and now they're in an environment where there is no detectable mold or you know the other pathogens.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a case where it might take a while for the body to actually flush out those mycotoxins, or maybe uh like the detox pathways are downregulated?
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_00: So they're not able to flush it out on its own.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_00: It might need some assistance to get that through in order to be able to start digesting foods properly again?
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you ever see that?
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_01: The longest, as far as I know, and this this is this, we're learning a lot more about mycotoxins as as researchers are studying them, but aquatoxin A, which is a carcinogen and a common mycotoxin produced by penicillium and aspergillus molds, has a half-life in it in a in a body of about 37, 38 days, which means it takes a month and eight days to get you know half of it out.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that's and that's probably under a good situation where your kidneys and your liver and and are functioning well.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_01: So when we look at how do we get mold toxins out of a person, one of the main ways is through the GI tract.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so what happens is bile acids from your gallbladder have a very high affinity for mold toxins.
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a think of it as a as a as a as magnets attract each other, right?
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_01: So bile and mycotoxins, boop, they just attract each other.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so what happens is about 90 to 95% of your bile acids are reabsorbed in your distal intestine.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_01: So because your body reuses it.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now imagine you're trying to poop mycotoxins out and your bile is just shuttling them right back into your liver.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's called enterohepatic trapping.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's one of the issues that people getting out of mold face.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so we do use things like binders.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_01: Some doctors use um synthetic drugs like cholystyramine, which is a bioacid sequestrant.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like cholystyramine because most people that are mold sick are malnourished.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_01: And um, these drugs are being used in very high doses and they cause fat-soluble vitamin deficiency.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_01: So you you, when you use bioacid sequestrants, you cause vitamin A, vitamin D, E, and K, and omega-3 fatty acid deficiencies.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_01: You also deplete cholesterol, and cholesterol is necessary to heal and repair.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a major, major mother hormone to help people make testosterone and DHEA and progesterone and estrogen, which is a very important part of their repair and healing process.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, so I'm not a fan of using that kind of binder.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now, it does work better than the other natural binders like charcoal and zeolite and benit clay.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's several fulvic acid is a good binder, but um, but I would rather not create a problem in a person for speed.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I would rather have uh a person go about it appropriately and then support them in other ways.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, how else can we get rid of mycotoxins?
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: We pee them out, we um we poop them out, we sweat them out.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, saunas, infrared, very good way to help push mycotoxins out, staying hydrated uh so that you're urinating frequently and supporting your liver function, because one of the things that has to happen, mycotoxins are fat soluble.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so, it's like any fat-soluble toxin, you can store them in fat tissue.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then if somebody's overweight, we call that angry fat now, because as they're breaking that tissue down and those toxins are being released, and we're trying to push them out of the body.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_01: You're people are prone to this wave of ups and downs symptomatically, right?
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that's something to be be just be aware of because a lot of people in mold gain weight, some lose, but many gain weight.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_01: It is what happened to me, 25 pounds.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you use these binders and then you use what are called biotransformers.
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_01: You you to biotransform something, basically the simple way to put that is you take a fat-soluble substance in your and you run it through your liver, and then your liver converts it into a water-soluble substance that can be sweat out, peed out, and pooped out.
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so you support the liver.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Things like milk disel and um and in acetylcysteine and glutathione and vitamin C can be very helpful for the liver to properly take these mycoto uh mycotoxins and and basically water solubilize them so we can excrete them more effectively.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, and it's and it's everybody's journey is different.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_01: I would say if if you're trying to detox and you're and you're struggling really hard, you don't have to go at the pace.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's not a one size fits all pace here.
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like we can we can take it more slowly, we can do things more slowly.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_01: But if you've been, I will say this if you've been struggling for years to recover, you're doing it wrong.
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you're working, even if you're working with somebody and it's like, yeah, I've been trying to do this mold detoxification for three years and I'm still sick.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_01: No, you're doing it wrong.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_01: You're either still in mold or you need to go back and look at those categorical triggers I discussed earlier: food, chemicals, microbes, and nutritional deficits, because those four things are necessary.
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_01: They're not negotiable, they're necessary for people who are chronically ill to recover.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the ways we get mycotoxin persistent exposure is through the wrong kinds of foods.
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_01: And once your immune system is sensitized to mycotoxins, meaning when you're when you're being exposed to large amounts of mycotoxins all the time, your immune system creates a basically it creates an army of soldiers designed to neutralize that.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you get out of your mold, if now you're eating grain, which is one of the most contaminated mycotoxin contaminated foods, you're already sensitized.
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_01: So now that grain is just feeding more mycotoxins into an already sensitized immune system.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_01: If you're eating a ton of dried fruit, those can be contaminated with mycotoxins.
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_01: If you're a peanut fan and you're doing peanut butter or peanuts, those can contain mycotoxins.
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_01: If you're drinking a lot of coffee, guess what?
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_01: More mycotoxins.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to change your diet once your immune system is sensitized to the moldy environment in order to recover after you get out of the moldy environment, or you'll just keep struggling, you know, long term.
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that's you don't have to keep struggling.
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_01: This is why it's so important.
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_01: When I you know when I wrote No Grain, No Pain, I actually wrote about mold and mycotoxins as part of the process of why grains can be unhealthy.
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_01: But but giving this added context, if you're coming out of mold and you know it and you're not getting better, but you're eating these other foods, this is probably one of the reasons why.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, we're we're over time, but oh my gosh, I could keep you on the show for like 12 hours and still have questions, right?
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_00: But um, because you're just such a wealth of knowledge.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And because you not only take the science, right?
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_00: You're a great researcher and investigative journalist, I would say, but you also have the clinical application.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_00: So you see what's happening in clinic in real life, which those those two combined together are gold.
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Those are gold.
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I I was one last question as you take us out.
• 1:13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, first of all, where can people find more information about you?
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we will put those links in the show description as well as the link to the trailer of the upcoming documentary.
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_00: We'll put that in the show description.
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_00: And when it launches, we will also send that notice out to all of our listeners.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but so where can they find you?
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_00: And if someone suspects they might have mold exposure in their home, what is the proper test for them to use to assess it?
• 1:13:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna answer that first.
• 1:13:41
  SPEAKER_01: And just bear with me.
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_01: I know we're I know we're against the against the time crunch.
• 1:13:46
  SPEAKER_01: There's not one simple test, and that's the problem.
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, most mold inspectors take a weekend training course and they get mold inspector certified.
• 1:13:54
  SPEAKER_01: So um they don't understand mold illness, and they certainly don't understand architecture or building structures or or vapor barriers.
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're relying on an air test.
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_01: And usually what happens, you hire them, they come in, they charge you about 500 bucks, they run an outside air air sample as a control, and then they run a couple of indoor air samples, and then if they don't find it, they tell you you've got no problem.
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'm gonna give you an array of different tools that a mold inspector should have.
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_01: They should be able to do air samples, they should be able to do dust samples where they're doing what's called MSQPCR, which is multi-sequencing polymerase chain reaction.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's a type of DNA test that can identify mold spores off of dust samples.
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_01: They should be able to do tape lifts, tape lifts for both mold spores, but also tape lifts for mycotoxin levels.
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_01: They should be able to do what are called wall cavity samples.
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes mold isn't obvious.
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_01: So drilling a tiny hole in the wall and pulling air from the wall cavity a lot of times shows high levels of mold.
• 1:14:55
  SPEAKER_01: In our case, we had in one of our wall cavities well over a quarter million spores, uh multiple types, black mold, aspergillus penicillium.
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_01: They should have a boroscope, which is a you know a fiber optic camera, a snake camera that can run behind your wall to without having to tear your house up to visualize.
• 1:15:11
  SPEAKER_01: They should have infrared cameras where they can see changes in temperature that might indicate moisture problems, right?
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you mix hot and cold air, you get rain.
• 1:15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they should also have general knowledge of construction and they should be able to look at your outside of your home and look at your gutters and look at you know your brick and look at around your foundation.
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they so it's it's these are just tools of their trade, but then they should also have a knowledge of what are some of the common construction defects and some of the things that would allow for improper vapor penetration into a home that would lead to to mold growth.
• 1:15:50
  SPEAKER_01: I have a very comprehensive article on how to hire a mold inspector, Cena, on Moljact that people can tap into.
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's just we put all that information there because that's a big question.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so you can use this as a litmus test.
• 1:16:03
  SPEAKER_01: And if you call a mold inspector and ask them, do you have these tools?
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And if the answer is no, hang up the phone and don't waste your time.
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the answer to the first question.
• 1:16:14
  SPEAKER_01: And the second question was people can find um, they can find our work and our ongoing work about mold at moldjacked.com.
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_01: If they want to learn more about gluten and and conquering autoimmune disease with diet lifestyle nutrition, they can come visit us at glutenfreesociety.org.
• 1:16:29
  SPEAKER_01: We have a ton of free information there that uh that we just give away because we want people to know about it.
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then if they're interested in coming to see me, um they can go to dr peterosbourne.com and they can schedule a uh a um a consult with one of my team members and and just kind of ask any questions and get clarity around you know what we do.
• 1:16:49
  SPEAKER_02: Do you expect do you expect what's your what's your um end game vision for this house?
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm gonna tear it down and rebuild it.
• 1:17:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'll tear it down and rebuild it.
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's that's not my house is not remediatable.
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason why the foundation has a moisture leakage problem.
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_01: You you can't fix the foundation, you have to tear it out.
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_01: And if we were to remediate, it would it would cost more to remediate than to rebuild.
• 1:17:20
  SPEAKER_02: So okay, wow.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_02: So Cena, our question for our community today uh is um do you do you suspect you have a mold issue now after listening to this?
• 1:17:33
  SPEAKER_02: Do you suspect you have a mold issue?
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_02: And if so, why?
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Great question.
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, um, thank you so much, Dr.
• 1:17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Osborne, for coming on the show again.
• 1:17:46
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna have to have you come back because every time we talk to you, there's more questions that we have.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_02: So you're a you're a wealth, you're a wealth.
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_02: We just can't tell you how much we appreciate your your attitude, your spirit, and your your sleuthing, your sleuthing capacity.
• 1:18:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's uh desperately needed, and we're very grateful for it.
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, you're welcome.
• 1:18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll come on anytime.
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_01: I love you guys and love what you're doing as well.
• 1:18:09
  SPEAKER_01: So appreciate you right back.
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you everybody for joining us on another Beyond Labels podcast, and we look forward to visiting with you again next week.