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Accused Of A Crime Now Put Your Life Back Together Burden Of Guilt From Nancy Glass · Arroe Collins Like It's Live

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  Speaker 1: It's really all about having fun. Ero dot net, aar
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  Speaker 1: r Oe dot net. I know what you're doing when
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  Speaker 1: you're driving to work. I know what life is like
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  Speaker 1: when you're sitting there at the office looking for a
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  Speaker 1: podcast that doesn't sound like the rest of them. How
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  Speaker 1: about twenty one different podcasts, I'm serious, twenty one different
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  Speaker 1: platforms on one network. Aro dot net, a r r
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  Speaker 1: Oe dot net. Enjoy your exploration, Nancy, Nancy, Nancy, I
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  Speaker 1: gotta tell you I love what you are doing with
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  Speaker 1: your podcasting because over and over again I talk about
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  Speaker 1: you in the way of you are not an influencer,
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  Speaker 1: you are a journalist, and that this is where journalism exists,
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  Speaker 1: and that you continue to prove it every single season
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  Speaker 1: of Burden of Guilt.
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  Speaker 2: Emma, really thank you. That's so nice of you.
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  Speaker 1: To say, Well, what you're doing with what you create
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  Speaker 1: is it's it's I know it's a sad story and
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  Speaker 1: it's a really embraceful story when it comes to Cindy
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  Speaker 1: and Kenny. But every one of us that are listening,
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  Speaker 1: we're all sitting there going how close is this to me?
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  Speaker 1: Oh my god? Do I need to be watching people
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  Speaker 1: around me who isn't telling me things. You know what
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  Speaker 1: I mean. You make it so like, oh my god,
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  Speaker 1: it's about us.
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  Speaker 3: Ohro That is exactly why I think people are interested
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  Speaker 3: in these stories.
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  Speaker 2: I think that's You've nailed it. It is could this
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  Speaker 2: happen to me? Who do I have to look at
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  Speaker 2: twice around me?
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  Speaker 3: With our series betrayal, That's what it's all about, because
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  Speaker 3: everybody's been betrayed by someone. These are The burdon of
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  Speaker 3: Gilts is more complex because it's so deeply disturbing what
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  Speaker 3: these people do. But there is a redemption at the
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  Speaker 3: end of these stories. Otherwise you'd just be left with
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  Speaker 3: a heartbreak. These stories do, in the end come around.
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  Speaker 3: But yeah, there is suffering, but they also they remind
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  Speaker 3: you that the system can really screw it up.
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  Speaker 1: Oh my god, Oh you're so right about that. And
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  Speaker 1: it's that system. And people always say, why are you
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  Speaker 1: being so negative? Why do you Why are you on
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  Speaker 1: the down? I'm not on the down. I'm just aware.
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  Speaker 1: I listen to podcasts, I see what's going on in life,
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  Speaker 1: and Nancy makes me very much aware.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think it is. It's really sad.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, in this case, someone is falsely accused of
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  Speaker 3: sexual abuse and it destroys their lives. And it was
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  Speaker 3: done because an ex husband wanted to get back at
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  Speaker 3: his ex wife and did everything he could to make
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  Speaker 3: people believe that there was sexual abuse of a child
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  Speaker 3: that didn't happen. And because of that, the courts in
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  Speaker 3: the very beginning took the children away from this woman, Cindy.
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  Speaker 3: So it's Cindy and her fiance Kenny. Kenny's the one
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  Speaker 3: accused of sexual assault. Now they take the children away immediately,
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  Speaker 3: And I will.
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  Speaker 2: Tell you the case has been resolved.
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  Speaker 3: She has been vindicated, he has been vindicated, the ex
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  Speaker 3: husband has been punished, and she still doesn't have any
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  Speaker 3: custody for Kitchens.
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  Speaker 1: See see that, Oh my god, that's where my heart
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  Speaker 1: gets involved in this. And tell me I'm not going
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  Speaker 1: to be the only one here. There are many times
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  Speaker 1: during this you find yourself sitting there and you got
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  Speaker 1: to offer a prayer. You got to offer something that's
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  Speaker 1: in a human compassion and empathy for Cindy.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, because I mean so, I assume some of your
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  Speaker 3: listeners haven't heard the story. But what happens is, so
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  Speaker 3: Cindy and her boyfriend Kenny go off, They get waged
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  Speaker 3: in Hawaii and they get back and all of this
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  Speaker 3: stuff has happened while they are gone that they had
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  Speaker 3: no idea. The ex husband has gone to the police
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  Speaker 3: and said there's been a sexual assault Kenny.
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  Speaker 2: And they get off this plane and and.
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  Speaker 3: By the way, he's taken his son to nine doctors,
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  Speaker 3: nine doctors who have examined this boy, physically examine this boy,
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  Speaker 3: imagine the trauma on the kid, to find somebody who
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  Speaker 3: says something could have happened. Then he goes to the police.
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  Speaker 3: The child later on you learn when she sues. When
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  Speaker 3: she sues the ex husband, she gets to hear the
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  Speaker 3: interrogation tapes which she never heard, where his child is
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  Speaker 3: sitting with a police officer and a you know and
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  Speaker 3: somebody specially trained to talk to kids like this and
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  Speaker 3: says and is asked, how do you know this happened?
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  Speaker 2: How do you know you were socially abused?
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  Speaker 3: And he says, my dad says, so the dad talked
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  Speaker 3: not just him, but all the kids into believing this happened.
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  Speaker 2: And how about that.
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  Speaker 3: Think about like a false memory. There's a demonstral proof
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  Speaker 3: that nothing ever happened. And now they've got three kids
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  Speaker 3: who think something happened, and these three kids loved Kenny
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  Speaker 3: be accused, they loved them.
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  Speaker 1: See. And so this is what I mean when it
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  Speaker 1: comes to how you write these stories and you present
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  Speaker 1: these stories that we can all relay with it, because
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  Speaker 1: right away I'm taken back to my own real father
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  Speaker 1: and my mother. My mother would never talk about my
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  Speaker 1: real father. Why mom? Why mom? Why mom? There are
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  Speaker 1: certain things we don't talk about. WHOA did I ever
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  Speaker 1: find out?
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  Speaker 3: No?
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  Speaker 1: And so I depend on stories like yours to at
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  Speaker 1: least give me some light from somewhere to believe that somewhere,
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  Speaker 1: somewhere along the line, I'm going to meet somebody who's
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  Speaker 1: going to give me a real story. I mean, that's
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  Speaker 1: what we have here with Cindy. But I don't want
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  Speaker 1: my mother to go through what Cindy did.
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  Speaker 2: Right, Isn't that interesting?
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  Speaker 3: I think that's why you like a story like this
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  Speaker 3: I do, because you understand how and also like somebody
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  Speaker 3: gets something in their head, your mother maybe that there's
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  Speaker 3: something that you shouldn't know, whereas you on the other side,
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  Speaker 3: are thinking, don't give me. I need the secret. You
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  Speaker 3: got to share the secret, and the secret might not
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  Speaker 3: have even been as devastating as your mother might have
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  Speaker 3: thought it was right, even though your life it's none
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  Speaker 3: of my business. But I hear these stories over and
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  Speaker 3: over again, and it just it hurts my heart because
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  Speaker 3: you know, I guess we all have to believe. Sometimes
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  Speaker 3: I think, here, it's really funny. I found out things
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  Speaker 3: about my family that through twenty three and meters. I
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  Speaker 3: found out that my grandfather at sixteen ran off with
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  Speaker 3: a twenty seven year old got married, this whole crazy story.
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  Speaker 3: And when I got back, when I asked my mother
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  Speaker 3: about it, she was like, never.
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  Speaker 2: Happened, didn't so right?
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  Speaker 3: And so with Cindy and Kenny, with all these stories,
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  Speaker 3: there was always somebody who has their own reality, their
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  Speaker 3: own truth. And so I know, is't that crazy about
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  Speaker 3: my grandfather?
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  Speaker 2: It's wild anyways.
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  Speaker 1: But that's got to be a driving force behind you
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  Speaker 1: as well, because you keep unveiling these stories, and that
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  Speaker 1: makes me think, what's going on? You're in search of something,
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  Speaker 1: and in the process of digging things up, you're finding
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  Speaker 1: great stories that will help other people.
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  Speaker 3: Right, because everybody has a complex story, everybody, and some
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  Speaker 3: people put it aside, some people examine what happened, and
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  Speaker 3: hopefully we all understand it.
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  Speaker 2: In this case, as.
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  Speaker 3: I said, Cindy hasn't seen her kids in seven years
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  Speaker 3: and they never and found out.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, this was one of my favorite parts of the story.
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  Speaker 3: We got this story from Steve, her ex husband's second wife.
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  Speaker 2: She's now divorcing him, and.
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  Speaker 3: Reached out to us to tell us this story and
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  Speaker 3: to tell us that he offered her two million dollars
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  Speaker 3: to get out on the stand and tell a lie
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  Speaker 3: about se and Kenny and what the kid said.
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  Speaker 2: But who wouldn't even know if she.
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  Speaker 3: Wasn't getting divorced from him, if she wasn't angry, who
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  Speaker 3: know this guy would have gotten away with this.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm gonna sound like my grandma Dobrins.
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  Speaker 3: Mm mmmm mmmm mmmmm.
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  Speaker 1: There is more on the way with Nancy Glass, the
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  Speaker 1: name of the podcast Burden of Guild Season three, We
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  Speaker 1: are back with Nancy Glass. Is this a case of
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  Speaker 1: anybody can talk the spots off a leopard? In other words,
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  Speaker 1: manipulation is a horrible thing.
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  Speaker 2: What a good way to put it? Yes? And I
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  Speaker 2: think anybody can.
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  Speaker 3: I've you know in our again, in our show Betrayal,
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  Speaker 3: It's always about people who their psychopathology says to them.
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  Speaker 2: Just mix stuff up, and that's what happened here this guy.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, imagine, this is what you make up.
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  Speaker 3: So in making up a lie about your son being abused,
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  Speaker 3: you're not just hurting your ex wife and her fiance.
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  Speaker 3: You're destroying your son and you're destroying his brother, and
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  Speaker 3: you're destroying you are You're taking a stand and making
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  Speaker 3: up something from which these kids will never recover.
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  Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. Yeah, how are you going to
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  Speaker 1: break the chain on that? As Stephen Ferdick from the
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  Speaker 1: Elevation Church would say, how are you gonna because this
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  Speaker 1: child is going to grow up to do what you
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  Speaker 1: got to break the chain. Somebody's got to break the chain.
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  Speaker 2: Right, somebody's got to tell him this didn't happen. But
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  Speaker 2: then if it didn't happen, why did his father betray him? So,
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  Speaker 2: you know, and if this did.
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  Speaker 3: Happen, why did his mother allow this to happen? So
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  Speaker 3: it's a very there's a lot of questions. And when
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  Speaker 3: you listen to the story and you hear the twists
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  Speaker 3: and turns, you can understand how things went so bad.
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  Speaker 1: But you know what's really scary, Nancy, is the fact
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  Speaker 1: that as we go into these stories on the podcast
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  Speaker 1: Burden of Guilt Season three. The thing is, though, we're
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  Speaker 1: all coming in with our interpretations already loaded, and that,
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  Speaker 1: to me is so scary because that's real life. We
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  Speaker 1: hear a story, Oh my god, my interpretation is ready
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  Speaker 1: to go, and then here comes poor little Cindy.
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  Speaker 2: Well and even my the producers I work with, they said, well,
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  Speaker 2: something must have happened.
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  Speaker 1: Why what.
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  Speaker 3: I know? Well, I have a friend who talked had
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  Speaker 3: a terrible, terrible divorce, and she said to me, I
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  Speaker 3: don't tell anybody about it anymore because I know what
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  Speaker 3: they're thinking.
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  Speaker 2: They're thinking, oh, what did you do?
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  Speaker 1: That's right?
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  Speaker 3: Is it possible that somebody can be singularly terrible and
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  Speaker 3: do something really terrible and you're not at fault. I mean,
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  Speaker 3: there are plenty of divorced people who will tell you
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  Speaker 3: terrible things happen to them and it wasn't their fault.
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  Speaker 1: I want to know more about Cindy in the way
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  Speaker 1: of where the hell did she even get that hood spot,
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  Speaker 1: In the way of being able to compartmentalize all of
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  Speaker 1: that energy and keep things really, I mean, she's like
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  Speaker 1: somebody who can just put things in order and keep
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  Speaker 1: them in order and be just just filled with discipline
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  Speaker 1: on that.
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  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and it was very hard.
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  Speaker 3: She made a decision, yes, because she knew her ex
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  Speaker 3: husband so well. She knew that no matter what, he
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  Speaker 3: was going to go after her and make it worse
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  Speaker 3: and worse and worse. So she decided to stick with
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  Speaker 3: the truth to her own peril. I mean millions of
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  Speaker 3: dollars year after year after year, the stress of that.
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  Speaker 3: And by the way, her fiance, you know, I spent
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  Speaker 3: time with the two of them. Obviously they're so nice
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  Speaker 3: and they haven't didn't break up over this.
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  Speaker 2: They stuck together. They both love the kids.
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  Speaker 3: She's broken hearted because she doesn't think she'll ever see
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  Speaker 3: the kids and her old it was she had two
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  Speaker 3: nine year olds, nine yumal twins and a daughter who
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  Speaker 3: was fifteen.
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  Speaker 2: Will that daughter move to Australia? Oh boy, yeah, oh boy, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: to get away from all of these.
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  Speaker 1: It was wondering because people ask me why am I
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  Speaker 1: in Carolina versus Montana where I grew up, And I said,
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  Speaker 1: twenty five hundred miles is not enough. I want to
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  Speaker 1: go to Australia.
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  Speaker 3: But but you know what, things that you go through
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  Speaker 3: make you a deeper person, make you a better person,
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  Speaker 3: and it also makes you understand other people's pain, and
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  Speaker 3: it makes you it makes you empathetic, and it makes
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  Speaker 3: you curious.
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  Speaker 1: I got to ask you, though, as a journalist, because
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  Speaker 1: you really do right in a way that you put
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  Speaker 1: yourself in a position that it's like it's happening to you.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: Would you choose to be a member on the jury
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  Speaker 1: or would you be the one that they bring in
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  Speaker 1: as an eyewitness because you've got all of this unbelievable evidence.
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  Speaker 1: You've got something here that is valuable.
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  Speaker 2: I you know, I want to serve on a jury.
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  Speaker 2: I really did.
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  Speaker 3: I think that would be most interesting because I think
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  Speaker 3: I would be a really honest surer. I think I
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  Speaker 3: would really consider the facts and not be swayed people.
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  Speaker 3: Are you know? I did a show called The Jury Speaks,
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  Speaker 3: putting jurors together from trials like Michael Jackson, O J.
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: Simpson and saying, if you knew then what you knew now.
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  Speaker 2: What you know now, how would you vote? Very often
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  Speaker 2: the votes would have changed.
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  Speaker 3: I think I wouldn't have been swayed by a lawyer
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  Speaker 3: or I just would love that opportunity because I've seen
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  Speaker 3: so much injustice.
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  Speaker 1: So when you're digging through all of the transcripts and
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: all of the confessions, how do you determine what is
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: the lie? Because we live in this clickbait world right
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: now where we don't know what is the lie? How
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  Speaker 1: do you know what you're reading it wasn't prefabricated?
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  Speaker 3: Whow That is a really good question with us, we
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: don't talk about a case and let's just been adjudicated,
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: we know. I mean, we're really really careful because people
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  Speaker 3: make stuff up.
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  Speaker 1: Yes they do, Yes, I mean people make stuff up
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  Speaker 1: every day. Well see, And that's the very reason why
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  Speaker 1: I always say that when people say I'm telling you
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  Speaker 1: the truth, are you telling me the truth? Or is
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: this based upon your true story? Because it seems like
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  Speaker 1: once we live something, automatically the brain wants to change
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  Speaker 1: the story so that we can live with what actually
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  Speaker 1: took place.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I completely agree. And sometimes we misremember things.
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  Speaker 3: I was happy, you know, like we'll say, oh, this
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  Speaker 3: happened when I was here and it didn't.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I noticed that when kids talk
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  Speaker 1: about their parents and they all have different interpretations of
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: mom and Dad's going. How is that possible?
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  Speaker 2: How we all in the same room that didn't map.
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  Speaker 2: I know, I know, it's really funny. Yeah, I know.
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  Speaker 1: So no, no, what how do Cindy and Kenny even
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: step back into a real world. I mean they've they've
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: got to just kind of just go start all over, right.
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  Speaker 1: I Mean, isn't this like the game of life where
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: it's like you go down the shoots and ladders and
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden it's like, oh, well, I got
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  Speaker 1: to go back to the beginning.
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  Speaker 2: Well, it's very interesting. They still moved back to Colorado Springs.
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  Speaker 3: They didn't leave. They're determined not to let this change
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: their life. They stay together. They're very strong, and they're
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: determined to move on with life. I mean, they want
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: a lot of money, they want to lossuit twenty million dollars,
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: but you know, they actually didn't care that much.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, she had money.
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: Because he had already sued the ex husband, which is
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: what got this all started. She owned a business with him.
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: She's a geologist. They're both geologists. He went and sold
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: the business and cheated her, and that was what's started this.
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  Speaker 3: And what he did to really keep her away from
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  Speaker 3: the kids was he moved to Hawaii from Colorado's friggs.
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  Speaker 3: So even when she did get to see them, she'd
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  Speaker 3: have to get.
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  Speaker 2: On a plane, but he stopped her from seeing them
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  Speaker 2: at all.
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  Speaker 1: Oh how cold can a heart get? I mean, that's
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: pretty icy cold right there. That's almost frozen.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Were there any journals that you get to that you
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: got to step through and to pace your way through
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: because people are more honest on a page, But at
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: the same time, it's all based on interpretation as well.
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  Speaker 2: No, they didn't. There were no journals. Again, what happened.
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  Speaker 2: They didn't expect to tell this story.
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  Speaker 3: They didn't think this was going to happen, and they
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  Speaker 3: just sat down and told it. And it's interesting because she,
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: when you listen, sounds very bitter and people, you know,
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: people like black and white, they don't like gray. I
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: think she has a right to be bitter. I think
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: she has the right to sound bitter. She doesn't have
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  Speaker 3: to be benevolent because you know how much of her
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  Speaker 3: life was destroyed by this. And you know, when you
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  Speaker 3: have children, you love your children. The fact that they
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  Speaker 3: hate you and you didn't do anything wrong is devastating.
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  Speaker 2: Is devastating.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's worse than ghosting. Oh my God, when one
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  Speaker 1: of your creations, a gift from the higher powers, is
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  Speaker 1: not looking in your direction or having a conversation, Oh
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  Speaker 1: my god, you just cannot You cannot bear the pain
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  Speaker 1: or even create words for it.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely right, And you think I love you so much?
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  Speaker 3: Do you not know this?
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  Speaker 2: I have sacrificed so much. Do you not know this?
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  Speaker 3: And yeah, and nowadays kids are these kids, but you
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: know they're allowed to.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: They don't have to respect us. They can be pissed
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  Speaker 2: off at us as much as they want.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: That stuff makes me laugh though, really, I mean, I
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: get over it. I go do some push ups, go
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: do something right, then off your knees.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Exactly so exactly how.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: Do you feel and recover after you have put yourself
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: through this a story like this, Because as a journalist,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: you've got to become them, and that's why you can
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: share your story the way that you do. But you
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: got to be able to shake it, because your podcast
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: doesn't end now.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: No, you know, it's funny. I once did a story
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: on a girl who was murdered on Appalachian Trail, which
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: is like being murdered in a cathedral.
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: It was it was so like that doesn't happen and
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: when I went to visit her parents, they decided not
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: to mourn her death but to celebrate her life. And
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: I found that devastating, just devastating. She was such an
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: accomplished girl, and I just I cried my eyes out
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: when I left, and I ran into Mike Wallace, who
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: was a journalist in sixty Minutes, and I said to
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: him what you do when it gets to you?
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: And he said, oh, it never gets to me.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: That's why I'm a good journalist. And I said to him,
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: it always gets to me. That's why I'm a good journalist.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: You know, it always gets to me.
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: The advantage I have here is I'm not what I
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: used to call a video vampire. You don't go in
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: and just suck up somebody's story and leave them for dead.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: I have continuing relationships with these people, and at.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: The end, there is redemption. We tell the whole story.
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: When you're telling a podcast, it's not two minutes, yes,
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: you know, it's like six.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: Hours, and you tell the whole story. You tell both sides.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: You have to tell both sides for people to understand
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: the redemption arc.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: Oh you've got to come back to this show. Oh, Nancy,
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: every every time we get together, we get barely started
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: as a times up. Come on, So we got to
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: get together and have a real conversation or some time
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: that doesn't have a time limit on it.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: I'd love that. Thank you.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: Well, you be brilliant today. Okay, and thank you for
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: what you're doing because you are a true journalist.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you. I'm so kind of you. I just
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: think of myself as a storyteller.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: I'll give you that. I'll give you that. Yeah, I
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: will absolutely give you that. Will be brilliant today.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you,