Transcript

Breaux · Why We Do What We Do

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You're listening to Why we Do what we Do. Welcome to Why We Do
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what we Do. I am your inspired host Abraham Ah and I am your
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compassionate host Shane or Psychology Podcast. We talk about the things that people do,
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and sometimes we celebrate the amazing people for the things that they have done.
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If you like what you hear today and would like to support us in
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some way, you can subscribe liberating a review, pick up some merged joints
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and patre and all that stuff. You can interview people about why they do
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what they do and then write a book about it called Why We Do what
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we Do, and then give us fifty percent of the profits from then.
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Now, that would be wonderful support as well. Yeah, let's talk more
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about the ways you can support us at the end of this discussion. Absolutely
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so, today we are talking about a gentleman named David Henry bro This is
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going to be an interesting tale, I think. Yeah, not to be
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confused with David Henry Throw, even though they sound so similar. Yeah,
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the guy that we're talking about today did not write Infinite Jest. But if
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you're joining us on the day that this publishes, which is September thirteenth,
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then we'd like to wish you a wonderful and happy National Peanuts Day, the
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best of all the nuts, big fan of that nut. It's also Defy
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Superstition Day, which really aligns with this podcast. I think indeed, I
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am given to understand that peanut is not actually nut for all of you petants
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out there who wants to email me about that. Yeah, it's a legume?
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Is it not a legume? I believe it's legou. It's also International
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Chocolate Day, which makes sense because chocolate peanut butter just go together. Yeah,
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also aligns with this podcast really well. Yes, it's National Bald is
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Beautiful Day, which is not part of this podcast, but we do support
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the bald heads in the world. Yeah, we're very hairy, but we
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are fans of Peter Segal from wait wait, don't tell me. Yeah,
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we'll be allies. It is National Programmer's Day for all of you out there
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who are programming computer things. Good. We celebrate you, we sell at
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you. Yeah, thank you for that. It's National Hug your Boss Day,
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which is definitely put together by like some creepy white boss like white old
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man. Yeah, it was like, come on, why don't you want
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to give me a hug, but you know it is exactly how that happens
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anyway. It is National Quiet Day, which we are going to entirely ignore
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for the purpose of today's episode. Yeah, this format does not lend itself
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to quiet. It is not that airspace is not good for a podcast.
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It's National Kids take Over the Kitchen Day, which you know sounds dangerous.
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Yeah, put the plastic lining down. It is National Celiac Disease Awareness Day
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for all of you on Atkins. Yeah, yeah, I'm just kidding,
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just two people generally who are gluten to learn. Yeah. It's also Positive
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Thinking Day, which I like. Yeah, absolutely, it is similar to
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that. It is rolled doll Day, so go read a jams the Giant
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Peach or something, or you know the BFG, which you know I always
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joke that stands for a big freaking guy. It's also Direct Support Professional Recognition
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Day or week. I'm sorry it should be week. Should be the entire
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year because DSPs do a crazy amount of work and do not get enough pay
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or support for it. Yeah, super helpful. We also soluit you.
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It is Line Dance Week, so if that's your thing, you know,
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a whole week to talk about it. I guess and do it or something.
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Yeah, I guess that's the thing that you do. I never could
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line dance because I can't dance. It's National Environmental Services Week. Big fan
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of that, yes, and then also National Suicide Prevention Week. A big
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fan of that. Uh huh. It's chef appreciation Week, so you know,
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compliments to the chef, Yes, chef. And finally it is Housekeepers
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Week. We definitely want to acknowledge those housekeepers. It's a busy week,
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so hopefully you you know, you have a place where you can get cheap
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gifts because you have to buy a lot of gifts for people this week.
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It sounds like, yeah, there's a lot going on. Yeah, the
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thirteenth is quite full of them. And of course is the week holidays or
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recognition things as well. But anyway, we're not here to talk about all
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of those holidays. We're going to talk about one person who had an interesting
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mission in life. And the reason that I wanted to talk about him is
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because I found his story just very inspiring. I was very moved by this
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the things that he has done, and I felt like it was worth understanding
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a bit more about this person. About his life, about his sort of
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philosophy, if you will, and and sharing that with people because he just
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had such an interesting story. Yeah. Absolutely, so, I think it's
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probably worth diving in to just kind of understand this man. Yeah, this
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is a story about love, it's a story about compassion, it's a story
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about inspiration. We're talking, as we said, about David Henry Brow.
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He was born in Duerta, California. This is in for those of you
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not up on your California geography, the sort of northeast La you're getting up
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into the mountains at the base of the San Gabriel Mountains. David was the
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youngest of three children to a Jamaican immigrant mother and French Creole father. David,
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his older brother and and his sister Maria grew up poor in their California
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suburb and had a rough childhood, specifically because their mother was schizophrenic. Was
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very unpredicatable as you might imagine, and even in Maria recalled a time when,
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as a teenager, their mother apparently entered Maria's room in the middle of
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the night, stood over her with a knife, and spoke of needing to
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kill Maria. Fortunately, their father happened to catch her and it was able
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to intervene and he got her out of the room before anything happened. And
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you know, Maria recounts like she doesn't think her mom really intended her harm,
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but obviously a scary situation when someone who needs some extra support. Absolutely,
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But their father was also no hero. He routinely whipped and beat his
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children and his wife as a form of quote medical treatment as he called it,
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which sounds really difficult to deal with. Yeah. Now, nevertheless,
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with all of this going on, they've got some unpredictability, some sort of
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volatile behavior from the mother. They've got some volatile behavior and violence from their
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father. The siblings were very close, they really supported one another. In
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particular, David and Maria were very close to one another and really were looked
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out for each other. So kind of going forward on that, David,
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essentially I had a very little relationship with his father beyond the corporal punishment part.
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David would recall, quote, I impressed to remember a conversation between my
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father and I laughting longer than a minute during those years, and which is
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a shame, and it's unfortunate that this is kind of the relationship that he
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has, and this is unfortunately very common as well. Yeah, and I
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mean honestly, you hear some of this and you see what could be the
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shaping of someone who could have turned out to be a very violent, very
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unpleasant person to be around when they sort of grow up around that sort of
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thing. But David proved to be pretty resilient. After graduating high school,
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both David and Maria attended Stanford University, where David graduated with a degree in
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urban studies, apparently a thing. And while at college, their mother passed
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away. So I don't mean to belittle that degree. I just I have
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never heard it before this setting, So yeah, I had neither, so
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it's super super fascinating. I'll have to look more into it. Yeah.
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Now, after graduating college, David's father was alone, getting older and in
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poor health. He asked David to return home to help take care of him,
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and David agreed, later writing quote, no longer seeing him as a
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father, as a tyrant, as a dictator, as an abuser, no
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longer seeing him as anything other than a human being. I always suggest to
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those who come to me asking about forgiveness to do it before someone passes forgiveness
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is being at peace with the past. And I know I could never do
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what I do today as a figurehead for compassion if I were not forgiving my
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father end quote. So I actually think it's really important this idea of while
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you have time to do this, being able to forgive and forget and let
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go of things and be It's not everybody can do it. Not everybody is
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willing to do that, and no judgment on that, But I personally subscribe
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this idea of like, I've got to be able to let go. I
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can forgive, not forget, but I can forgive a lot of things that
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have happened in my life. Absolutely, I completely get what he's saying.
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Yeah, and this is starting to get into what I found so inspirational about
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the story, is thinking about you know, David was not in no way
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obligated to take this on. He didn't really have a relationship with his father.
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He had a very poor history with his father, and nevertheless he just
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you know, he decided to make that choice for himself for his family.
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To just think about this in terms of what's the most compassionate way for me
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to approach this, And there's just so many times in life that I think
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that that solution seems very elusive, where where it's more important sometimes for us
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to feel like we're right than for us to be kind, where it's more
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important for us to be vengeful than it is for us to be forgiving.
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And so I love this part of the story. Yeah, I mean all
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of it, all of a story. Yeah, I think it's important too
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to note that, like that is not for everybody. So like I think,
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you know, as I've gotten older and I've realized, like that's for
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me a personal thing. If you've got a personal thing going on, whatever
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it may be, family related, person related, like it is not an
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obligation. So like we're not saying that like this person is better than anybody
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else, or that you are a bad person for not forgiving. It's simply
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just a perspective to take more than anything. You're absolutely right. And for
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myself, when I hear on this is like that is kind of like how
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I would like to be. You know, yes, not everyone's going to
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feel that way, but that's sort of how I landed with me at least,
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so absolutely me too. Now, eventually Marie and David made the way
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to the San Francisco Bay Area. This is sort of northern Ish California.
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Ectarn to get up toward northern California. In February twenty eight, a then
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thirty four year old David went through a particularly difficult breakup that left him depressed,
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and he happened to during this time a TED talk by Karen Armstrong,
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and the Ted talk was called My Wish the Charter for Compassion. In this
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Ted talk, it's really landed with him, It really resonated with this is
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now what I want my life to be about out And one of the quotes
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that was in this Ted talk I thought i'd pull out is where she says,
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quote compassion goes beyond communities. It's recognizing others, humanity. The world
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is drawn together and yet farther apart because of compassion end quote. I'm not
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sure if that was exactly the one that he pulled from, but that was
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I thought a relevant quote in there. And so, yeah, this whole,
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this whole talk of hers was really oriented around this idea of compassion.
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Yeah. So moved and inspired by a talk, David found his purpose compassion,
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and he wanted to work on his compassion work full time. Is what
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He said he wanted to work on his quote compassion work full time, learn
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about compassion, and help promote compassionate behavior, and he went to like merrit
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in Oakland to ask people what they thought compassion is. He also moved to
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Davis in two thousand and nine to live with a friend and with a notebook
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that would later become many notebooks. He decided to stand at the corner of
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third and C Street. You don't really need to know anything about it besides
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that that's a particular location in the story, and would ask passers by to
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describe what compassion meant to them. So it simply ask them like, what
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is compassion, What do you think it is? What does it mean to
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you? And he would write down what they said in his notebook that again
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became many notebooks, right, which is a really fascinating thing and also I
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think important to kind of think about. This is a stranger standing on the
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street asking you questions and recording your responses. But despite the fact that he
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stood in imposing six foot two, he was able to amass more than eleven
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thousand responses from total strangers giving their thoughts on what compassion meant, which I
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think is really cool. That's quite that's quite a few interactions. Yeah,
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there's a pretty good end size for aggregating. Yes, yes, if you
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will. Let's talk a little bit about what he did with this after we
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let some less than compassionate advertisers try and sell you some things. Okay,
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we're back. We've been talking about this sort of history of David bro and
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Tim finding his way to a Ted talk that inspired him to do work on
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compassion, which at least initially meant that he was aggregating people's responses about what
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they thought compassion was. So he eventually distilled all of those writings down,
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all of those responses into a self published book in twenty ten called Compassion Davis,
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California, a compilation of concepts on compassion and althose reportedly an ebook.
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We could only find evidence of it existing as a paperback copy currently out of
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print, so you can't really get it, but it is something that does.
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There is a tangible copy of this somewhere, and I did see multiple
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titles of this, even where I saw that there was like a page that
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you could buy it that had it as out of print and out of stock,
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like one source cited it just as being called Compassion. One source cited
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as being called Compassion Davis, CIA. Another source had it called Compassion,
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a compilation of concepts on compassion. Like there was various titles. So I
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apologize if we didn't nail down exactly the one that it was supposed to have.
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I was I was a little unclear from where I was finding different information,
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right, and so I just figured out threw all the information on one
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title for us to talk about. But anyway, so he published that book,
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he decided to do what he called, quote living selflessly end quote giving
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away most of his possessions. He gave away his car, his clothes.
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He didn't he even gave away his place to live, which he recounted all
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in a twenty ten short film called Standing Compassion. And he set up shops
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sleeping on a bench in Davis's Central Park, so different, not New York
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Central Park but in Davis, California. Right. So, in twenty eleven,
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the local newspaper and Davis, called The Davis Enterprise, featured a story
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about bro and his Compassion project, which is I mean, I think pretty
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cool when you get like a feature story about the kind of work you're doing.
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Yeah, because I mean, at this point, he's still basically standing
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on the street corner asking people and talking to people about compassion. So he's
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starting to get a lot of attention for this, partly because even though he
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is this sort of he's a very tall person kind of looming over a lot
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of people that come by, and not everybody, of course, but a
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lot of people and asking them about compassion. So people start to think of
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him as just this really really nice, kind sweet person. I'm sure people
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thought that he was a little quirky and weird because he was talking to strangers,
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but yeah, he like he was, became sort of this more and
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more well recognized friendly face in the community right now. In twenty thirteen,
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David worked with the Davis community to put in a bench at this third and
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C corner where he would hang out. And this is an earth bench public
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art sculpture with bright ceramic tiles, and the words compassion is tiled into the
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back, along with some other words that presumably other set had said about compassion,
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such as on one part of the bench they had tiled in the words
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listening and another part they had tiled in giving, And if you can kind
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of imagine it, it doesn't really it looks more like they car a bench
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out of stone than they made like a really intentional bench. And again I
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think it's meant to look that way. I don't think they did corve it
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out of stone. That would be intense, right, But it's it looks
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like sort of a big, sort of pinkish red stone with these really pretty
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mosaic things sort of tiled in sections of it that have some text and images
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and that sort of thing. Right, It's it's pretty neat looking really,
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I think, probably a really great centerpiece for where it's at, you know,
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like it's a it's it's a landmark obviously. Right now. In twenty
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fourteen, he was able to go on a national tour of twelve cities around
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the US dubbed the Compassion Tour, funded by the Davis Community, in which
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he spoke and learned about compassion. So the community themselves helped pay for him
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to go on this tour, which is really cool. He picked communities I
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believe that were he was already interested in, like compassion work that they were
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doing, and so he wanted to sort of go in support of those efforts,
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I think was what I remember reading. So Okay, now interest starting
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to get into I think, close to more modernish times. He extended this
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idea of his and how he's talking about compassion even against his own self interest.
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He wrote on Facebook and a post in twenty sixteen, quote, if
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I'm ever harmed and unable to speak for myself, forgive the perpetrator and help
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others forgive that person end quote. And I think, well, learn,
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I need to come back to those words, because they are exactly what he
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says will probably be important. You might be thinking that's a pretty extreme statement,
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and I think it's probably worth taking a second to pause and think about
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what that means for you. Right. The idea that like, if you
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yourself, are you are ever harmed in a way that you can't speak for
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yourself, then you are not saying press charges against this person, harm this
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person. You're saying, please forgive this person and help the community around them
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forgive this person. That is a big bill to swallow for a lot of
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people. Yeah, and almost very difficult to like wrap your head around that
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yourself. So it's worth kind of taking a second to kind of maybe process
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what that means for you. I agree. Now. In twenty nineteen,
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his sister came to visit him and learned that he was unhoused by choice.
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David had been offered to stay with friends, he had been offered gainful employment,
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he turned it all down to live selflessly. His sister tried to help
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him and found a job for him, but he declined. She reported that
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quote, he reassured me that he was fine, and that he was living
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in a state of pure love and compassion and one one hundred percent here and
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now in a mindfulness sense end quote, which is, you know, what
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can you even say to that? How can you argue that? Yeah?
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Yeah, I mean I definitely would understand her concern. You know, if
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I saw my sibling out being on housed, that would really be trying to
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push for them to be in some kind of shelter, ideally a home of
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some sort. So I do understand that her concern, and then to extend,
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I understand his position. It's a complex situation. It's a complex situation,
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and I, as somebody who may be on the outside looking in and
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hearing some of the family history, I would also be fearful of are you
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on housed because you're actually mindful? Are you on house? Because you're dealing
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with mental illness that clearly our mother had, that you could possibly have as
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well. So I'm concerned that this is not something that you're doing of your
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own free will. You're doing this because you're not really making a decision in
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the best state of mind. So I could understand maybe from that perspective to
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not understanding enough about that or maybe assuming that that might be a contributing factor.
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Yeah, yeah, good point, all right. Now. Reportedly in
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twenty twenty three, David was planning to move into a shelter four unhoused people.
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So it's going to find a place where he could be. That was
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the sort of the last update we had about what he was going to do.
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So this brings us to this year. April twenty seventh, two twenty
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three. Heads up, this is going to take a turn from this like
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kind of inspirational story a little bit. In the early morning of April twenty
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seven, twenty twenty three, at age fifty, David was stabbed to death
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while sitting on his park bench. David was the second of what would become
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three victims in a series of stabbings that had taken place around Davis injuring an
19:07
unhoused woman and resulting in the death of then twenty year old beloved and brilliant
19:11
student Aboo mid Jim. Yes, So, someone saw David sitting slumped on
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his bench seemingly unresponsive, so they called a welfare check with police who came
19:22
to see if David was okay, and when police arrived, he was declared
19:26
dead at the scene, having received a significant number of stab wounds according to
19:30
the police. That's a direct quote from the police, significant number of stab
19:33
wounds. Yes. Now, at the time we've been able to find so
19:38
far is only one suspect, Carlos Realis Dominguez, a twenty year old student
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recently expelled from UC Davis for quote unquote academic reasons. He was arrested in
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connection with the stabbings, although he has since pled not guilty, and so
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far there has been no motive obtained for these crimes. But worth noting that
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all of these hap and outside all of these happened with people who were looked
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like they belonged to some potential ethnic minority group. Two of the three were
20:07
people who were very noticeably unhoused, so unsure if there was any connection there.
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They maybe just seemed like easy targets for the person. But at least
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at the time of this recording, there's been no clear motive that's been identified.
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And we'll probably keep track of this just to see if there are any
20:26
updates on this, because I think it's I think it's important to know what's
20:29
going on here now. David's sister Maria, obviously crushed by the death of
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her brother, knew how he would want her to behave in the wake of
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his death. He had left it for in writing seven years earlier quote,
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if I am ever harmed and unable to speak for myself, forgive the perpetrator
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and help others forgive that person. End quote. So coming back to that
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quote, I mean, this person, David has lost his life and he
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is even still asking for forgiveness for that person who did it. Yeah,
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I mean, oddly prescient of him to have written that, like almost like
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he knew at some point that that was something that could happen to him,
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and obviously it could happen to any of us, particularly in the United States,
21:06
where gun violence is one of our national pastimes. Yeah. Anyway,
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it seems an oddly specific forecast for him to make now in a phone interview
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with The La Times, Maria said, quote, I have to start the
21:18
process of forgiveness. That was just something that came into my mind. I
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thought, also, this person must have been in such pain to have gotten
21:25
to this point to do this. Either they're in great pain or having some
21:29
kind of mental break, or someone has failed them, or maybe we failed
21:32
them. End quote. And again, I just think that point of view
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about this is just so it's so much more than I would expect, even
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from myself. You know. Yeah, I think there's a level of strength
21:45
in that that people don't talk about, like knowing like a lot of a
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lot of Americans, not the majority, but a lot of Americans would say
21:51
that that person needs to be brought to justice this. You know, they
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might have a lot of different, like very emotional, like maybe not revenge,
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but like justice oriented perspectives on this. I think it takes a lot
22:00
of strength to let that go and to say no, forgive that person because
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obviously there's something wrong and they need help, So maybe forgive them and get
22:10
them the help they need. Setting them to prison is not going to be
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the help that they need. You know. I feel like there is like
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a level of strength in that that people don't talk about absolutely, And it's
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not to say that that people who do have that sense of wanting justice and
22:26
feeling emotional after being traumatized or victimized, or someone you know being traumatized or
22:32
victimized. I think it's very understandable that someone to feel that way. So
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it's not just to criticize that position, but man, I think just having
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being able to think of this in terms of like what led to this person
22:45
making this horrible decision that has hurt my brother, how did they get to
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that point, Like what failed to them along the way. There's an incredible
22:53
perspective taking to try and think like that, and not that we all need
22:56
to not that this person even deserved it, but we're not, you know,
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make in a case out of the way. But I find it very
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inspiration to bring that level of thoughtfulness to your way of managing things like grief
23:07
in the wake of a traumatic event like this. That's just as you said,
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it does take a lot of strength. Yeah, I mean she even
23:15
acknowledged that whoever was guilty should be kept off the streets less they harm others,
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but they should not be treated with anger or retribution. I think I'm
23:22
so glad that she went further to say, like, yes, this person
23:26
needs to be you know, taking off the streets to keep other people safe,
23:30
Like no other people should be harmed, but from a place of love
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and compassion and healing versus anger, retribution and punishment. Yeah. Now,
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some online people posted disagreements, stating that they did not interpret David's meaning to
23:45
include something as extreme as his own murder. Maybe they're right. I do
23:49
think that his words were fairly ambiguous, you know, and again, just
23:52
to make sure we're clear, what he said was quote, if I'm ever
23:56
harmed and unable to speak for myself, for give the perpetrator and help others
24:00
forgive that person. That seems relatively unambiguous to me. He has already built
24:07
in there I'm unable to speak for myself. I mean, what they're the
24:10
only other circumstances that he's like in a coma or something, right, which
24:14
also seems fairly extreme. So, like, I think his meaning was fairly
24:17
clear. People are entitled to their opinions, but that that was something that
24:21
sort of came up as people I think very upset about this, and understandably,
24:25
yeah, very upset about this saying they were more of that justice mindset.
24:29
We want this person brought to justice for harming this wonderful person that we
24:33
all love, right, this pillar of our community. Really, I mean
24:37
if the community is paying for him to do a tour and like to do
24:40
these speaking engagements and really and and they're going so far as to build,
24:44
you know, a monument for this guy and all that. I mean,
24:45
obviously he was meaningful for the community. So yeah, I mean, just
24:48
this is a tragic end for someone who devoted their life to kindness, to
24:52
loving others and including complete strangers. Yeah, it's almost ironic in a way.
24:57
It's terrible to think about. And you know, someone who his whole
25:00
mission in life, it seemed like, was just to treat others with compassion
25:04
and have others think about compassion and what that would mean in treating others still
25:08
with compassion and bringing this to strangers and whatnot. And I find that just
25:14
a moving place to sort of find oneself. Yeah, absolutely so, I
25:18
think it's probably worth in this larger discussion unpacking this idea of compassion for a
25:26
minute. I think that we do have to do that a little bit.
25:27
I think I would like to give everybody maybe a little bit of space after
25:30
hearing the story of bro. So we are going to play some ads in
25:33
a second, but when we come back, we are gonna unpack this idea
25:37
of compassion and what it means and really kind of like just have a discussion
25:41
around that. Yes, go go gadget ads. So that was an old
25:52
reference as we're saying, let's start to try and talk about compassion now.
25:56
I was unable to get a copy of the book that he wrote, Compassion
26:00
Davis, California, et cetera. But the way that this was talked about
26:04
in the Ted talk that it was so inspirational to him, I thought was
26:07
a way that we could orient to this. So the way that Karen Armstrong
26:11
was talking about compassion, she really linked it to this idea of the golden
26:15
rule and how that showed up particularly in religious writings like the Bible, where
26:18
it was do not do one too others what you would not have done to
26:22
yourself, or phrase differently, sometimes do one to others what you wouldn't have
26:26
done unto yourself, right, and so treat others the way that you would
26:30
want to be treated. That sort of idea, and I think there's actually
26:33
something useful and phrasing it as a negative that don't do on others part of
26:37
it. But nevertheless, that's part of the idea of compassion. So I
26:41
think that I can get on board with what they're sort of saying there.
26:45
You know, I think for me, when I think about compassion and what
26:48
it means, and I feel like we could probably spend some time talking about
26:52
empathy versus compassion, versus sympathy, right, all of those things, and
26:57
like that's usually those three are kind of lumped to the same discussion. We
27:00
won't do that today, I don't think. I don't think it's really worth
27:03
kind of diving into all of that. But I do think this idea of
27:06
compassion is just being able to take some time to think about the struggles and
27:11
the challenges and the things the battles that people are going through and approach that
27:18
person still with love and with forgiveness and kindness. I mean, I think
27:22
that there is something really powerful and arguably very humane in that. I think
27:29
about this a lot, actually because I work with learners who have developmental disabilities
27:34
but have been part of the state as sex offenders for different reasons. Right
27:40
they've been arrested. They have victimized people. And the question I get a
27:44
lot when people learn that is how do you work with people who have done
27:48
something so terrible? How do you work? I mean, and that's been
27:51
something that I've had to answer often, And the question always comes up is,
27:56
well, if somebody doesn't help them, who's going to? Like this
28:00
person is a human being who deserves help, Like whatever's going on, whatever
28:04
they're struggling with, they still deserve a chance to get better. And I
28:07
think that that once I started realizing that, that turned into why I am
28:14
so strongly against the death penalty and why I am so strongly against these like
28:18
lengthy punishments that don't teach anybody anything like it doesn't really. I think that's
28:22
where that's come from for me. Even though I felt like I was always
28:25
kind of compassionate, I've learned that in that space that finding humanity and the
28:29
people that you interact with is so much more important than the things they've done.
28:32
Sometimes. Yeah, and I mean, just to see you're sort of
28:34
alluding to and I feel like we brought this up a little bit in a
28:40
previous discussion, but I'd like to think about this in terms of understanding crime
28:44
and other things that people do where we see that as being some kind of
28:48
punishable offense. You know, we talked about like people driving poorly and that
28:51
sort of thing, and is understanding why that person is behaving that way in
28:56
the first place. Once you start to unpack that, that thought about like
29:02
what are the circumstances that led you to down this path? This sort of
29:06
comes back to fundamental attribution error, which we've talked about before, Right,
29:08
is like, is this because you're a bad person, or is there some
29:12
circumstance that we could point to where pretty much anybody in that same situation would
29:17
have eventually ended up where you are now. Right, It's almost always the
29:19
latter, Like you could almost always push someone to the brink of doing extreme
29:23
things that they said or thought they would never do given the right circumstances.
29:29
And some people are just driven straight there from birth, you know, they're
29:32
just on this trajectory toward this almost inescapable fate. It's it feels like because
29:38
they just keep getting beaten down, they keep getting you know, the things
29:42
that when they do the right thing, it gets punished, When they do
29:47
the wrong thing, it gets rewarded, and eventually they figure out, like,
29:51
the thing that makes the most sense for me is is this path here
29:55
that maybe involves criminal activity? And that's what I'm saying when violence gets normalized,
30:00
when violence gets treated as something has glorified, and it's actually part of
30:04
my concern with the death penalty is like I remember hearing the saying, which
30:08
I thought was like quippy and inauthentic with it the first time I heard it,
30:12
which was like, why do we kill people who kill people to show
30:15
that killing people is wrong? Right? But it actually kind of like it
30:18
does make sense and to us, I mean, if you really think about
30:21
it, like, yeah, we're saying essentially that sometimes it's okay to murder
30:25
people. And eventually I found myself in the position of saying, I think
30:30
we've just got to stop saying that's okay, right, you know. And
30:33
I do get the emotional need for justice that people experience when they've been harmed,
30:40
But I think if we want to practically set up a situation where we
30:44
stop teaching people that violence is okay, because if it's okay sometimes, then
30:48
who authors the conditions? Who gets to write what sometimes means? And arguably
30:53
it's whoever you know and whatever the situation seems to call for. In the
30:57
United States, where in a situation where we have people who simply walk into
31:02
the wrong house who are now being murdered at like a regular rate, that's
31:06
just the thing that happens now. They accidentally walked into the wrong house,
31:10
they accidentally pulled into the wrong driveway, they accidentally stepped foot on the wrong
31:15
property, and we're being and they were shot to death as an outcome of
31:18
that. That does not feel like justice, that does not feel like it's
31:22
appropriate. And it's this fear of people, this fear of others. It
31:26
is this the sense of righteous vindictive hate and fear and violence that has been
31:33
so normalized. It's all the opposite of the things that I think David would
31:37
would have pushed for. Yeah, it's worth thinking about, like who do
31:41
we want to be and who do we want to but what do we want
31:44
this look like for the next generation? Well, and I think part of
31:47
it too is understanding in that in kind of unpacking all that what it is
31:51
that you need in that space. I think as a general rule, compassion
31:56
is a better way to lead a society than justice, punishment, harm,
32:00
all of stuff. I think as a general rule it's good. However,
32:04
I can we can also recognize that, like relationships are complicated, Like I
32:07
think that in some situations, like you know, with David's situation with his
32:10
dad, like that sounds like an incredibly complex situation where my only relationship is
32:15
this violence, and now I've got to go be this person's caretaker. Like,
32:19
not everybody has the I guess I don't want to say motivation because it's
32:24
not really what it is. I think it's challenging fortitude maybe maybe fortitude.
32:29
I mean, it could be any number of things, right, but I
32:30
think it's very challenging to unpack that and to expose yourself to that. When
32:36
trauma is involved, when harm is involved, I think it's a more difficult
32:39
road. Maybe that's what I'm looking for. It's a more difficult road to
32:43
forgiveness for some people if you ever get there. And compassion is is just
32:47
one of those things where if you lead with compassion, maybe that's an easier
32:52
way to get there. Maybe it's more healing, maybe it unburdens you or
32:55
something. But again that relationships are complex and that's not a prescription for everybody.
33:00
I think, yeah, and I think that's a really important thing to
33:02
to kind of recognize. That's like, if I'm willing to approach a situation
33:07
from a compassionate lens, then I also am willing to recognize that not everybody
33:12
has the ability to do that or has a long road to do that,
33:15
and so every human has their own quips and quibbles and rocky roads and all
33:21
the things that they've got to deal with on their own road and their own
33:24
path of forgiveness. And so I think it's really important to take a step
33:28
and look at that too. That's one of my favorite things that I think
33:31
you've ever said on those podcasts. That was beautiful. Oh, thank you.
33:36
I appreciate that. I completely agree. You're absolutely right is that we
33:39
have to look at everybody, and that means that people we fundamentally disagree with
33:43
on things. Yeah, and you know, we regularly rag on politicians and
33:46
public figures that we think do terrible things and make bad decisions. Low hanging
33:51
fruit, Low hanging fruit. You know, we're punching up. These are
33:53
people who have a lot more power, a lot more status, a lot
33:57
more money than we do, and we're looking at them. And I think
34:00
a lot of times, I'm thinking you could be a beacon for good in
34:02
this world, and you choose to be a beacon for fear. You choose
34:06
to be an inciting figure to like cause harm, and it's frustrating. And
34:09
I think that if we want to practice what we preach, we have to
34:13
look at them with a compassion too. And I honestly think that a part
34:15
of this idea of compassion is it almost doesn't matter. It's almost not compassion
34:21
if you can't do it or if you can't do when it's hard, right,
34:24
right, Like Compassion isn't just like this is easy. Compassion is this
34:30
is hard? Right, This is a time when I don't want to forgive
34:34
somebody, And those are the instances where you really are seeing that person for
34:38
who they are. And this goes back to the point that you know,
34:42
we were just talking about. What compassion is is seeing someone for who they
34:45
are, in the situation that they're in, and understanding where they're coming from,
34:51
so that you can choose to, if you wish, be a space
34:54
for that person to do better, right, even when you don't want to,
34:58
even when you're frustrated. We're all sort of learning and going through this,
35:00
so right. I think the thing that I take away from all of
35:04
that is that compassion is not an obligation to forgive. Yeah, that's fair.
35:07
I like that. I think it's an attempt to understand, but I
35:09
don't think it's an obligation to forgive. And I think that's really important for
35:14
people who you can still be a compassionate person and still struggle with forgiveness.
35:16
And I think that's where I think. That's where I land on all of
35:20
it. More than anything, I think that's great. It's a really good
35:22
point. Well, we managed to riff on that pretty sufficiently. I'm actually
35:25
right. Please, there is one more piece of this which I think is
35:30
relevant to what we were just describing, an understanding sort of why would someone
35:34
be able to embrace compassion? Thinking of this again from the sort of psychological
35:37
perspective, What gets in the way for people? What doesn't? How does
35:40
that work? Why did David do this right? Probably another one to think
35:44
about. So we've probably made it far enough to let the advertisers do their
35:49
thing. I think we can justify that, and then you can try and
35:52
feel compassion for them. Good luck, I guess back all right, Hopefully
36:05
those ads were as good for you as could be expected. Sometimes, you
36:08
know, you get lucky and no ads played during our ad breaks because we
36:12
just create the space for him and say you can play ads here, and
36:14
then the algorithm decides whether to put them in and they're targeted. So if
36:17
you get an advertisement for anger management, then that's on New Bunny check your
36:23
algorithm. Maybe just kidding anyway, why do this? Why does this compassion
36:29
thing? So it is worth unpacking kind of the functions or outcomes of behavior
36:34
within us. Right, everything is somewhat transactional in a sense. You know,
36:37
we kind of unpacked that a little bit in our altruism episode where you
36:40
know, nothing is really altruistic because you are still gaining something out of it.
36:45
But that is to say, you know, what do we get out
36:47
of every interaction that we have. It's worth evaluating that and looking at that.
36:52
In some instances, it may be as simple as we do X,
36:53
we receive X right, or receive why, like putting money in a vending
36:57
machine and getting a snack and return. It might be more compligated, it
37:00
might be more cerebral, it might be more esoteric, And that's what makes
37:06
this one a little bit more complicated. I think, yeah, I mean
37:07
it can be more arbitrary and more abstracted, such as something we might get
37:12
out of an interaction is the correspondence between what we hold important interactions that could
37:17
be its own reward. I've done a thing that I think is important to
37:22
me, or I think is in line with my values or what's important to
37:24
me, or Another example is a feeling of social reciprocity when you make someone
37:30
happy. Yeah, like, nobody handed you a candy bar for doing something
37:32
nice to somebody, but if you felt good. Because we're such a social
37:37
species, social reciprocity is a fairly built in reinforcer for us. We see
37:42
helping others, We do things for our community, and we feel better as
37:45
an outcome of doing that when, particularly when we know that we've made someone
37:49
someone's day a little bit better, and sometimes like those things by themselves function,
37:53
those are the functions, if you will, those are the outcomes.
37:57
It's transactional in that sense, but again it's not always transactional in a financial
38:00
or tangible sense. Often the outcome that we get as a feeling of like
38:06
this felt right, this felt good, this felt like there's a whole thing
38:09
in here. I think that we're talking about is like, this thing happened
38:13
the way I expected it to happen, and that by itself is a outcome
38:17
that I was looking for. Yeah, is I just wanted this to go
38:20
in this direction and it did. If you're unpacking different concepts from behavioral lens,
38:25
there is if folks that are listening are familiar with signs of damage.
38:29
Signs of damage is essentially like an organism is in pain or discomfort and they
38:32
engage in like some type of behavior, and the resulting outcome is maybe feeling
38:37
better, but mostly seeing the damage of the behavior. Right, seeing blood,
38:40
seeing crying, seeing broken items, Like, there's some little bit of
38:44
research in that space. But the opposite of that would be true too,
38:49
right. Signs of repair. Why do people restore old furniture or restore cars,
38:52
or like repair homes or fix things like you're not necessarily I mean,
38:58
if it's your thing, maybe you're getting some utility out of whatever that is.
39:00
Maybe you're avoiding something that's like a verse of or uncomfortable. But for
39:05
the most part, when people do restoration projects, they're restoring things because it
39:07
feels good to bring things back to life and to repair things and like see
39:13
something move towards a better state than it was before. And I think that
39:16
in itself is really worth unpacking as well. I think that's I think to
39:20
me, that's what That's what this really screams is you know, I'm doing
39:23
this thing as a signs of repair for my community, for relationships, for
39:27
people that thrive in this space that I'm currently thriving in. Absolutely, that's
39:30
fantastic. Another really great one in this episode that I don't think I've heard
39:37
that before and I love that because you're right, signs of damage is when
39:38
we hear about, but signs of repair make a lot of sense. And
39:42
it really does align with this. If you think about if I see someone
39:45
who is struggling with something, who maybe has done something though a lot of
39:49
people would find a boring and I go in and say, like, I'm
39:52
going to have a talk a real heart tire with this person. I want
39:55
to just like find out where they're coming from, what they're feeling, see
40:00
if I can help them find a better path for themselves. That would look
40:04
like compassion. And I think the transactional part of that is, like this
40:07
could be this person, there's signs that they then are making progress toward making
40:12
different decisions that they are. They're now behaving more compassionately and more thoughtfully toward
40:16
others, And yeah, I like that a lot that I think thinking about
40:21
compassion as having signs of repair, I think is really cool. Yeah,
40:24
as sort of one of the outcomes for what do you get out of this
40:28
work? I don't know, you could go all day like, there are
40:30
lots of ways that I think you could describe what the potential outcomes could be,
40:34
because we don't know, and it could be different for everybody, and
40:36
it could change day to day, Like for on one day, David may
40:39
have done this out of a sense of obligation, feeling like my day won't
40:45
feel complete unless I do this work right. On another day, it may
40:47
have been I want to see the look on someone's face when they have an
40:53
epiphany, right, like that could be the outcome. And maybe it never
40:58
thought as clearly as I want was, maybe never even in his language,
41:01
but just sort of like, this is the thing that's going to get me
41:04
through today, this is the thing that feels like it makes it all worth
41:07
it, And that could change a moment to moment, person to person.
41:10
Yeah, but Nevertheless, those those are the ways we think of like what
41:14
are the drivers of behavior? What are the outcomes that motivate us to choose
41:19
to do things? And thinking of it in that way of like what do
41:22
you get out of this transactionally? Which again, and most of the time
41:25
it's not tangible. I think the vast majority of the time, these are
41:29
arbitrary, intangible outcomes that are thoughts, their feelings, their correspondence. There's
41:34
expectations that those things they can be the drivers of the decisions that we make
41:38
that look like this, that seem like they don't have any clear outcome,
41:42
but there is, right, absolutely well, I couldn't have said it better
41:45
myself. Awesome any more to say on this or about David David Brow before
41:49
we wrap up today. I mean, obviously there's not a lot to know
41:52
about this guy, especially because it's a fairly new story. Like as more
41:58
information comes up, we are going to be to share updates and stuff as
42:00
we go. But yeah, I mean, I feel like it's a really
42:04
humane way to live in terms of putting people's humanity above like a lot of
42:10
other you know, I think that's I think that's a nice way to look
42:14
at the world. I think it yields less anger towards people and the things
42:17
they do. Yeah, and I think, you know, as far as
42:21
other takeome points and just thinking about and really thinking about why we even chose
42:24
to talk about this in the first place, is just this guy's you know,
42:30
he spent his life championing this idea of compassion and then was tabbed to
42:34
death and had left this message about like not being vengeful or vindictive toward whatever
42:39
perpetrator may have committed whatever crime against him, and just thinking, like,
42:44
what a cool platform to or like an opportunity to to use this platform to
42:50
talk about this idea of compassion, why it drove him the way he touched
42:54
and influenced other people. And I just thought that was a cool Yeah,
42:59
a cool conversation for us to get to have it. It felt, you
43:00
know, this one felt a little bit more personal, a little bit more
43:04
free flowing, if you will. Then some of our other discussions where we
43:07
have like a lot of specific points we're trying to make, and I kind
43:09
of like that. I feel like there was a mutility there, so hopefully
43:12
people got something similar out of it. Well, let's go ahead and close
43:15
it out there. Then I think there's some important important things we need to
43:17
know, which is that if you'd like to support us, as I said
43:20
at the beginning, wherever you're listening to this, like a rating and review,
43:22
join us on Patreon. If you do that, you can extra extra
43:25
content bonus things. People who would join us on Patreon include Mike m Megan
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Laylam, Mike T, Justin Kim, Joshua, Brad, Stephanie, Olivia,
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Brian, and Ashley. That is not one really long name. That
43:37
is a whole bunch of individual names from people to support us where we really
43:39
appreciate them. Just to be clear, Yeah, just to make sure we're
43:43
clear. You could also pick up some merchant Emerged store. You can subscribe
43:45
to our podcast. If you like to talk to us about compassion or about
43:50
any of the recommendations we're about to give. You can email us directly info
43:52
at WWDWWD podcast dot com, or join us on the social media platforms.
43:58
And also you get to listen to this because of the people who make this
44:01
happen. Writing and fact checking from Shane and myself, audio engineering and editing
44:07
from Justin and our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson. My team. Thank
44:10
you all, and they're the ones who make this happen, so appreciate you.
44:14
Yay, But of course thank you all for listening, and of course
44:16
thank you for recording with me today, Shane. But we're not done yet.
44:20
We have some recommendations. Recommendation recommendations. All right, I'm recommending a
44:31
movie that came out, I believe it was this year. I tend to
44:36
not like rom coms very much, mostly because I find their plots to be
44:42
paper thin and extremely cookie cutter, right, like you can pretty much predict
44:45
what's going to happen scene to scene, sometimes line by line in a show.
44:51
But there was this movie that came out that sort of it took the
44:53
idea of romantic comedy and sort of put a totally different spin on it which
44:58
was really fun to watch. And that was It's called Bros. Largely starting
45:02
Billy Eichner, but also had Bowen Yang from Saturday Night Live and several other
45:09
really fun actors that people recognize. The actor who's name of forgetting who was
45:13
on Community was on here anyway, It's it's sort of a rom com,
45:17
if you will, very funny, but it's took a slightly different spin on
45:22
it. I will you and say it's largely an lgbt Q plus type film.
45:28
Sure, but nevertheless I think really really funny, really just it's it's
45:32
you know, it's a light a lighthearted good time. So sit down and
45:36
enjoy. I like it. I heard it was pretty funny. I heard
45:37
it was pretty good. Yeah, yeah, I liked it all right.
45:40
Speaking of the opposite of lighthearted, I just finished a book called The Fisherman
45:45
by John Langan. This was recommended to me by a friend of mine who
45:49
The type of horror genre that we like is not just slash your film.
45:53
I mean not that we appreciate, Like we don't appreciate that stuff. Like
45:57
I always like flash Her and murder Mious Ray stuff. But sure, this
45:59
one's a little different. It's more of a cosmic core. Oh and this
46:01
one's really cool because it takes place in the Appalachian Mountains. Okay, so
46:07
it's got a little bit of the that kind of like old world old gods
46:12
feel getting some HP Lovecraft vibe, very very lovecraft, yes, very lovecraft.
46:16
I mean there is a giant, you know, a beast Leviathan that
46:22
is part of it's on the other side of the veil of reality as part
46:27
of this story, Like it really takes a wild turn, and that's not
46:30
going to spoil anything because the details in the story are very cool. Like
46:32
it's family members who have passed who are brought back to life through dark magic.
46:37
It's people who live longer than they're supposed to. It's like, you
46:40
know, doorways to other worlds beyond these. And it really starts off with
46:45
this character who named Abraham, who is a fisherman and starts kind of discovering
46:52
local lore and unpacking that local lore over time. Like a big chunk of
46:58
the story is a story somebody else tells about this, like the history of
47:02
this particular creek. It's not at all what I expected. And I am
47:07
obsessed with this guy's writing now, so I am really ready to dive into
47:10
this stuff. Okay, I'm gonna have to add that to my list that
47:14
you really sold this fun recommendation. It's so good, awesome. Well,
47:19
I think that's pretty much all I have. You'd like to talk to us
47:21
about those recommendations, reach out to us, of course, talk to us
47:23
about compassion, look up more about David bro But otherwise, anything else that
47:27
we need to add or anything that you would like to add or that I
47:29
missed before we wrap up chain Nope, I think that covers it perfect.
47:31
Then I think that's all we've got. This is Abraham and this is Shane.
47:35
We're out. See. Yeah, you've been listening to Why We Do
47:38
What We Do. You can learn more about this and other episodes by going
47:43
to WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening, and we hope you have
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an awesome day