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What I've Learnt - Lahra Carey · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I've known Lara Carey, a fellow journalist, since we both anxiously walked through the gates to a journalism cadet ship exam.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: We were in our twenties, eager and determined to score one of the minimal spots on the competitive cadet ship ladder.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: We both walked nervously and sacked the gruelling exam.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Fortunately, we were both successful.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Lara headed to the ABC and I began a Herald Sun cadet ship and then became a Melbourne Age reporter, and the rest is history.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Time would see us working together in later years when Lara took a studio space in my publishing offices, and it was from there she met her future husband, Ben Cowan.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: We attended that beautiful wedding and have been connected in so many ways.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: But tragically, Ben died suddenly in a paragliding accident a few years ago.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I've watched this incredible woman navigate the complex, challenging roles of Mother to Three, who started Parachute, a charity to help support other young people struggling or suffering loss.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Ten months after her father Ben died in a paragliding accident on the Great Ocean Road during a family holiday, Alex Cowan, then 12, was sitting on a bus with her sports team thinking about how lucky she was.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: She, her twin sister Charlie, their elder brother Mitch and mum Lara Carey had lived through shocking upheaval and had to do it in the public eye as Ben Cowan, co-founder of the Anaconda chain and son of the former Governor General Sir Zelman Cowan, was very well known.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yet Alex realised she was still fortunate to have the comfort of familiar friends doing familiar activities she loved.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, Lyra, welcome to the What I've Learned podcast.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: So happy to have you join me.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Can't wait to hear about your incredible journey.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: So lovely to be here and reconnecting in this space.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Agree a hundred percent.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, maybe what we should talk about is what connected us originally was journalism and the need to tell people's stories.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Why journalism for you or like me was just an unequivocal passion and curiosity?
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: We really are both committed to the art of storytelling.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think I had a misguided sense that I was going to be a writer.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was about writing.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: And the weird part about that was ending up in broadcast journalism where all I did was talk.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Which was pretty ironic too, because in prep I had the nickname of Lara Longton.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it probably worked that I ended up actually having to talk for a living.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, the curiosity thing is that's right.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I, you know, one thing that's interesting, we weren't both in our 20s.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: You were the one I looked up to.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: I had just finished high school and was a babe in the woods, and you were sort of a sophisticated, you know, university graduate who had a boyfriend who drove, which was amazing as well.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't even have my license.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it was I must have been in my late 20s because you're right.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was a graduate um and I got a graduate position.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: It was so exciting, but I mean it was so competitive, wasn't it?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I just remember when we got the call, and I'm sure you recall when you got into your chosen field and just thinking it was the best thing ever, I was so excited.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I know you got an incredible role, and it was really competitive.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: It was.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I was the last year that they took a non-graduate cadet at the ABC.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember one of the questions that I was asked in the interview when, because of course, well, you and I did the exam together, which was difficult enough.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, the interesting thing out of that was I could have ended up working with you because I got offered a job on the business, the herald business section.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: So my whole path could have been quite different.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: But I remember them asking me at the ABC at the interview, saying, So if and I'm remembering I was not even eight, I think I wasn't even 18.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Fresh out of school.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Fresh out of school.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, if you're going in to report on a war, how would you handle that?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I said I would go in, you know, under a neutral because I wouldn't take sides.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, wrong, you'll get killed.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Both sides will shoot you.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it was just so typical of the sort of entrance exams and entrance.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: I I remember my cadetship application when I got interviewed, you know, Steve Price was my editor that interviewed me.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, What you write music, what do you mean?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, who cares?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and I thought it was like, well, I'm a writer.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, Don't care.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, now talk to me about what you really do.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like he was very, you know, it was a tough process.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: And he ended up, you know, I actually worked with him and he was great.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, it is quite a trajectory that we go on that, you know, from police rounds to court rounds, you did it as well at the ABC.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, some of it was pretty tough, but also so exciting.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you yourself ended up having a very powerful story of your own.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: And as a storyteller, I have to say, I was rereading your husband's eulogy, which resonated with us all.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: As someone who knew Ben, your ability to capture his essence was so powerful and profound.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Your words clearly are your power tool.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Can I just read a little excerpt from your eulogy?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: You wrote, and I still have goosebumps.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: My husband had a magical cape.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: He would wear it with arms outstretched as he walked around, and into it he would sweep anyone in his path, bewitching them with a kind of intoxicating power that would make us believe he was heroic, invincible, and capable of anything.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: We were bedazzled and anything seemed possible.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: My closest friends know that living with a larger-than-life wizard could be irritating.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: There was never a life lesson because the plane would always wait, the phone would always be returned, the keys would always be found, and we would always forgive him.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: I called it the magic of Ben and went along for the ride.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I still get goosebumps, I have to say, and fact is stranger than fiction, Lara, as you found yourself a skilled PR and crisis manager in one of the greatest crises one could face.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to me about how you navigated that.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: And really, you did use your toolkit, which is your capacity to talk and to write.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think as a writer, that's where you, you know, the the outpouring and the working through comes in.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know whether the navigation, I mean you pick your way through, I think, you know, when you're, and particularly it's it's really interesting being on that trajectory.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: I've met lots of people, lots of widows on my past since Ben died.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: And the sudden death bit is different you know, there's it's it's actually interesting because in the widows group that I'm part of, there's often an argument or a discussion about which is worse, you know, the sudden death or the long sort of um protracted illness.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, and they both have they're both awful.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the unexpectedness of not being able to come to terms with something, not being able to say goodbye.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Not, I mean, literally the last thing I said to my husband was, be back by five, because I've got to hit the road and get back to Melbourne.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it was kind of like, and he goes, Love you, back by five, and that was, you know, sort of it.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: And and interestingly, you know, my kids were in the pool and didn't get to say goodbye.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: And they have developed, you know, more than five years later, this um kind of, I don't even know what you call it, a little tick almost, where they have to say love you before you leave a room, before you get off the phone.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, and it's an and if you don't, there's a huge thing around that.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we have all developed sort of coping mechanisms.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you don't really, yeah, you you you navigate and it changes all the time and it continues to change even today.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like you move on, you just move forward.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the other thing that's important to note is that you do have that resource, which is quite valuable, of being able to tell the story.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that is a real asset in terms of informing, educating, engaging, and communicating with others about what happened to you.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: I personally like whether it's through your eulogy or I'm sure in the widows group, your ability to communicate and to engage with people is actually something that um speaking to other people who have had loss, they don't always have that.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I interviewed, although I did interview Natasha Shoal, who had also who was an extraordinary interview, and she used her writing skills in her book, as we discussed.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: And she said that was quite cathartic.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think some of your ability to communicate has helped you?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's it's helped to educate because I think there was a sense, and a lot of people said that, you know, you'll be fine, you know, you'll get through this, you'll, you know, and people say it's so great to see you've moved on.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I get frustrated with that idea because, you know, grief and this sort of grief settles into your bones, and you do get on with life.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like you don't have a choice, you know, and definitely in my case, my kids didn't give me a choice when I tried to choose otherwise.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and so you deal with it and you live with it.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: And people want to see you happy and want to see that, oh now everything's okay again.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And for them, Ben is not present every day, every minute.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: But for us who live without him and who built lives around him, it's just it's a matter of, you know, he's here every day.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I've watched my kids grow into people who have gone from kids who saw their dad as the father of a child to teenagers who've asked other questions and sort of realized, oh, he was a person with all of these kind of different attributes they hadn't thought about, to adults who've reflected on their own behavior as children in that relationship and have been hard on themselves sometimes.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's moving all the time.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: So our relationship with Ben hasn't stopped at all.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that I write and I talk about it to educate other people to make them understand in a gentle way, but what's it like?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because people are also a bit fascinated.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, at the beginning, no one knows what to say.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: They bring lots of pastries and bread products.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, my sister termed the phrase bagel face when people would turn up with bagels and say, I'm so sorry for your loss.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And she'd be like, What's with the bread and the face?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and and you have this, you know, thing when you're going through, particularly in the early days, where you feel guilty for laughing where someone's seeing you.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because how can you be happy?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: How can you, you know, what if they think that I'm not inside falling apart?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: So you're being watched in a different way.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so I guess that I take certain milestone opportunities to tell people, what's it like at this stage?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: And remember that it keeps going.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, it's probably highly irritating to people that I continue to do.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: No, not at all.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I think what is important, and that's what I think your skills do give you, is your capacity to comfort others because there is a sense of comfort.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: People who have gone through or going through.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, there's somebody today that I know who's going through a really tough, tough time as a result of something that happened in her life.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: And she speaks very similarly, actually, about the notion of it being ever-present and it being something that you live with and it's in it's embedded in your almost in your DNA, becomes part of you.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's some sort of universality in in talking about grief in that way.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: And in that universality, it becomes it gives people a sense of comfort that you don't feel as alone.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's not to say that it's not a lonely journey at times, but tell me that story.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, I think that's really interesting.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that you had tickets to South Africa.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell me that little that little story of how you went on your trip and you pursued trying at a very early stage, trying to keep the kids a little stabilized?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: And can you tell me that story?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's really interesting because I think that goes to your tenacity and determination to try in a state of complete grief to push through something.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Ben had been to Africa, he'd done the big safari, he'd done, he had amazing stories about it, always had been somewhere that I wanted to go.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we'd waited for a point till the kids were sort of old enough to appreciate it, and we had great adventures with the children together.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: And um, even on the day of the accident, he had been booking what would be our holiday.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and his so he his accident was in the January, and we were going to go, I think, in the July.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, that didn't happen.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: But then the therapist that I was working with, the grief um counsellor, uh, said to me, Why don't you do it?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, I couldn't.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, at the end of the day, Ben made me brave.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he was that kind of person who just absolutely embraced life.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I was the one who went, hang on, hang on.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: We got, you know, snacks and what about times for sleeping?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I so the idea of doing it on my own was just terrifying.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um and she said to me, you know, if it was a big city or something, I would say don't, but I think it will really do you good.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so we uh planned this kind of trip and we went to, you know, Kenya and we went to Nairobi and we went to we went on safari and we it was a really amazing adventure, really, because we were in a um a van, the four of us with a driver.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: You and your three kids.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you and your three kids, just to clarify, you you went on that trip after the tragedy in almost in honor of what you felt you needed to do for your for your kids, for yourself, and almost in honor of what Ben had planned.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Is that right?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the well it was, and it was part of because I made them, you know, a couple of promises after Ben died, the kids.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that the you know, the children were age 13 with my son and 12-year-old twin girls.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: And at that time, you know, they were very worried about what was going to happen in all aspects.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things I promised them that was that we'd still have adventures, and that was very much part of our life and and our marriage and our values.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so I thought, okay, I'm gonna see if I can do this with them, not on my own, but as the only adult.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, we did it I mean fairly safely.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like we were wandering around uh Johannesburg or anything on our own.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that would have been a good idea, but it was a really intense experience.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it was also a point, it was a year after the accident, and it was a very much as a tribute to our life going on, but also honouring this big adventure that we were going to have.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I cried most of the way through it.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: I have to admit that I was I was not uh and and it was interesting because we were in on New Year's Eve, the kids said to me, We need you back.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: We've lost our father, but we've also lost you because I was so deeply in grief and just miserable.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, You have to be happy again.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was at that moment that I promised them, you know.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: So Africa was kind of the moment where I said, Okay, I'm gonna, whatever it takes, live in a way that's gonna be a fulfilled life.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think brave is a really good word for you because, and I like the way you say Ben taught you to be brave, because you're probably brave innately anyway, but I think that's a really good exemplification of the way that you took what was a really tough thing to do on your own anyway, let alone carrying this incredible parcel of grief that you were managing.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe do you think there was a catharsis in that in some way?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: I've tried to find that.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, I just think it is so incremental, you know, this the journey that I couldn't see that there was, oh, this big thing happened.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was waiting for that.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it, I don't think I had that.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: But it's interesting talking to people who were surrounded.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, for instance, one of Ben's business partners tells the story about, I mean, they lost, you know, their their partner, their lead partner, and the person who pushed through everything who taught them what they know um and how to do what they did.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: And Jason said he's the advice that his therapist gave was you've got to become comfortable with being uncomfortable.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so he wrote a list of the things that made him most scared and most uncomfortable, and then went through that list.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so some of it was swimming in open water and the dark.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so he went and started swimming at night in the bay.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: And he talks about looking up at the sky and talking to Ben during that period.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: So everyone did the people around him, really, a lot of people took his death as also a lesson of his life.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: What can I learn from this?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: And how and how do I deal with you know his loss?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: And how do I make it meaningful?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: And how do I actually go forward in a different way?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that is quite an incredible image, actually.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: To hear that and to hear that, and you're right, and everybody processes it in their own way, but the theme of it is to actually be courageous if you can in facing it because you don't have a choice.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: So has it made you fatalistic?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Has it made you have a sense that there is a destiny, or do you still feel we have some control?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really interesting question because and I grapple with that all the time.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think, I don't think there's a set destiny that I mean, you know, I bought Ben a paragliding lesson because this was a dream of his for one of his birthdays.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a two-hour lesson, which he converted into a um, you know, a whole like getting his paragliding license.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: And from there, he loved that.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, did I, after the accident, say, why did I buy him that lesson?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: I did.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: But do I think that that was what started that it was unstoppable that on that day, in that blast of wind that just came up, that was going to happen.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: No way.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I still think there's a lot of chance to our lives.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, I don't I don't think we have a set path.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I look at what's happened, I know that I my my life would be quite different if Ben was still alive, but I don't think this was always destined for me.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: So so what you're saying is it's probably a hybrid.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: The universe has its way, but but really it's not like one particular thing that we can change.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, we all grapple with that, you know, particularly at this stage of our lives, but particularly having experienced something like that.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: You can't help but reflect.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: And as you say, it's not one thing, you know, as you say, that gust of wind, it's nothing to do with the fact that you bought something several years before.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just fascinating anyway.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me a little bit also, just very briefly, about your kids started a great charity called Parachute.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I have to say the name is just, you know, I don't know who came up with it, but I don't know if it was you or them, but it's it's very powerful and very memorable.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it was the brainchild of Alex, who at, you know, well, I think she was less than she was still 12.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: She was very anxious about what would happen to our life after Bengal.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: She was very, very close to her father, but also then worried about she likes certainty and you know, she doesn't like change, and she was very worried about what would happen to us.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, he was a very successful businessman and um and was reflecting on the things that made her life feel normal within that period of time, and and and realized that some of the things that took her away from the horror of getting to coming to terms with this new life were things like sporting events and music lessons and birthday parties and things where she was enjoying herself as a kid.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it became clear to her that her life wouldn't change much materially.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: So she was still able to, I could still afford to do the things that the kids like to do.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: But she started reflecting on what happens to kids who don't have that privilege.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so rather than just reflecting, she decided to do something about it and uh came up with this idea for a uh not-for-profit that provided microgrants to kids who've suffered trauma.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: It could be divorced parents, it could be illness, it could be the loss of a parent, it could be anything.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and interesting, I mean, horrifically, we've seen lots of examples of what happens to kids in trauma situations since they started it.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: But she was interesting because she started this um, the idea and decided she had to do this on her own.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what does a 12-year-old know about starting a not-for-profit?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: And insisted that I didn't get involved, which I didn't for a while.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then it came to the point where it just wasn't going to come together.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we got help.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Her sister really wanted to be involved with her, so the two girls really took it forward.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then we had these amazing people who stepped in to help and helped with an advisory board, um, an amazing guy called Dean Cohen, who runs Flying Fox, who has a lot of experience in his field, um, Alex's godmother, Leora Miller, who was a lawyer and who really assisted with a whole lot of stuff.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and a whole lot of people who stepped in to say we want to help you.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: We've got DGR status, and Parachute was born.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: And um, unfortunately, through COVID, hasn't been able to give a lot of grants, but we're back to sort of accepting applications.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the girls are the CEOs of this organization.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And every time an application comes in and they read it, Mum, listen to this, this poor person.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: They've got this empathy and this sympathy for these kids who have it so much harder than they do.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think I know that them would be so proud of those of what they've created, but also I think at the end of the day, it shows that there is still growth and there's the capacity for children to adapt and they have to in life.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: And let's face it, we all do.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: On a completely different note, let's talk about the fact that you're one of only two women on the Carlton board.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Is that correct?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's my understanding.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: How are you finding having a seat at the table?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Carlton certainly seems to be having a better year.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: How did you land in this honorable position, Lara?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And what are you learning?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Or should I say, what are you teaching them?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder, I wonder whether they think that they're being taught anything.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um look, it's been a really firstly an exciting journey which started as falling down, you know, a rabbit hole.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: I was Alice in Wonderland.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: So what had happened was there's an there's kind of a new Appreciation with boards, having someone who is an expert in brand and messaging and narrative and crisis.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so I had been asked to go through the external nominations committee for the board quite a while before I was appointed.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: And there actually wasn't a position at that time, but they knew, looking at their skill matrix, what they were looking for.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so I went through that and was kind of told that I was appropriate, but there was no position.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Cut forward several months and suddenly the club was in a different position.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: There had been a review which I wasn't part of that had been initiated and in fact completed.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: The board changed, then four members of the board stepped off.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: The president had finished his term.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: So we had a new president who was one of four existing board members, and there were four new board members.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really in a time where you know members were very upset with the performance of the club.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: There was a whole lot of changes needed.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Half the board had knowledge of what had gone on before.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: New people sort of understood what we'd been reading and seeing, but really, you know, hadn't been part of that inner sanctum.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it was really interesting because boards that I've been on before, you either come on quietly and listen and learn before you participate, or you're all new and you're all creating something from the beginning.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: This was we had this absolutely, you know, expedited sort of opportunity.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: We had to trust each other very quickly and learn how to get information from each other.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Even before we had one single board meeting, we were making decisions like a change of coach, a change of CEO, we had to recruit a coach.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was baptism of fire.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: And we had a very short time frame to do it before the beginning of the season.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm happy to say all those decisions have come to fruition.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very interesting time.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, talk about a transformative time to be part of this club board.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's one of the most successful clubs in the league, which and I am a Carlton supporter.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, um, so you know, full transparency um in the league with a historical stellar track record on the pressures.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like I'm sort of interested, how did you sort of navigate, as you've just outlined, there's a lot of it's a very passionate club, and you're in an environment that was quite changing, shall we say?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, leading up to the Voss coaching appointment following Teague's departure, there was no coach and a lot of criticism of the club, as you've just referenced.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Do you sometimes have to trust the process of a board and ignore the outside noise and scrutiny and just focus on the task at hand?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you found that you had to really?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you were thrown, as you say, Alison Wonderland, a very good image.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we absolutely did have to.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: You can't ignore the noise when you are a membership base.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of similarities on the president of the school board and where you talk about, you know, sort of in terms of structure and stakeholders and ownership, it's quite similar in that sense.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you can't you can't not hear what the members are thinking and saying.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: But the interesting thing about Carlton and the point at which I got appointed to the board was fundamentally the club is in great shape.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Financially, it had not been in such great shape ever, probably.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we're in the middle of a capital, you know, a building project with Icon Park being absolutely, you know, facilities better than any other club has.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: There was a whole lot of things.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: We've got a Carlton in business um product, network to business network that that is in superior to any, well, no clubs have it, but it's also the best business networking operation uh in the state.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so there were all of these really powerful assets, but what does it mean if you're not winning on the ground?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so and it's interesting because you know, that fundamentally is what people hear and care about.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: And and the weird part, I mean, you know, my son, who's a passionate Carlton supporter, the beginning, the the subsequent board meetings after we've made those decisions, we were in the offseason.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: There were lots and lots of things that go to running a club, nothing to do with players.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: So there have been board meetings where football is not the main point of discussion, not now, obviously, during the season, but people are like, well, what else is there?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: And there is a huge amount that goes on, and governance is much more than, you know, no one's asking me to pull on my boots and run out and play.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm certainly not going to tell Lloydie or Vossi who to put where.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: I might scream like everybody else does about a bad decision or a miss.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: But it's it was about how do we get back, you know, and our and our job was to make sure that we were making decisions that was based on having all of the information and operating as a team ourselves.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a really interesting board because I'm so admire, every person on it has a very different skill set to everybody else.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: And at that moment of having to learn to trust each other and having to learn how we all think, we got so close so quickly, um, and understanding what perspective everyone was going to come from.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you've got someone like David Campbell from EgonZender, who often will come from a perspective where I think that is so different to how I was thinking.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: And Luke has been the most amazing president in terms of just pulling it all together, letting everyone have their say, and then working towards a decision together.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: It felt like we were making decisions in the right way and united.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that I think got transferred.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: The members understood that everything was being done with the right perspective in mind.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now, whether it was going to work or not, we had to hold our breath on that first game.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I was shaking playing Richmond.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that was 13 years of losses in that round to win that.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think, I don't think anything will reach that high again.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe a premiership, maybe a premiership, which we could do with.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so Laura, we were just talking about Carlton and the nuances of the board and the and obviously the Richmond win, I mean, the win over Richmond was just like pivotal, but also really boosted morale.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a sense that wait, this could be a different year.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, I know because I'm surrounded by Carlton supporters who obviously get very excited.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but as I've been advised, are very cautiously excited.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: What's the mood on the board?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: What's the and also do you think how much do you think it's coach related as well?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously there's there's clearly a correlation of sorts with that change.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, well, so two separate questions.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, firstly, the board, we've always said this was going to take time.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: So we we did not expect, you know, to make finals this year, that was the aim.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so when members we started winning and members got terribly excited, it was a matter of how do we manage expectations because yes, it we are doing things differently, and that's paying off, but you can't change everything in one preseason.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, one of the things that we had to keep reminding ourselves on the board when we were winning or where we started to get criticized for that third quarter, you know, or the tiredness of players at the end, they, you know, this this coaching team and these players had only been together sort of a few weeks, you know, really was very new, all of it.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it was incredible, really, what Vossi had managed to achieve, but it wasn't only the coaching, it was everything that was sort of looked at and changed.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: So when we went through the review, there was more than 25 different tweaks and changes and amendments to the way that things had been running.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: And Brad Lloyd took that on and implemented all of it with the team.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it was also a whole lot of work that was done around culture and around language.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: There had been this kind of talk of, you know, people say, you know, Carlton, people who belong to Carlton have a swagger now, or in a sense of entitlement.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: These were the things that I was hearing going on.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we didn't want that to be the case.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the interesting thing has been since that sort of so there's been a lot of change in language and Cookie coming in, Brian Cook doing a lot of work around culture.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the players were excited to embrace those ideas.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: So the word humility has come up a lot.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: I was just about to say that.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Humility is exactly what was just coming up in my mind, that that's what Carlton needs to reflect.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that is exactly key.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it's humility and it's about teamwork, and you can see the players playing differently, actually living those values.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's changed everything, I think.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also across from so remembering we're not just the players, you know, the club is much bigger than that.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's been really interesting talking to people from the administration and the business team, also saying it feels so different because they haven't been there as part of a winning team.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: So while everything else has been successful as a business, you know, we're suddenly seeing membership going up and excitement around the club that is, and I haven't been there in the other years, but they're saying it feels very different for them as well.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's interesting.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: When I interviewed Brendan Gale, he talked about the intrinsic um effectiveness of culture change.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, obviously we can see how successful they've been.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry to mention another club in this discussion.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Especially saying you beat them, it's fine.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: But the reality is it is it is really uh fascinating.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's important for people to understand the complex infrastructure, is what you're saying.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just about the day.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: A lot goes into what ends up on the field, and that fans need to understand that.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: And clearly there seems to be a positive progression.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a nice time for you to be involved, but also you must have learned a lot watching this transformation, I'm sure.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're all, I think we've all learned a lot.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: And learning from, I mean, look, that's the of any board of any business or any organization, you learn so much from the other people that you're making decisions alongside.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: And because most are chosen across a skills matrix, it means you don't double up with the view that you have of the world of someone else.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: And where you've got great boards, you've also got diversity, gender, thinking, culture, background.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got people coming with different points of view.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, the fact that I mean, Patty and I have a fantastic relationship, and she is amazing.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Patty, uh Patty, yeah, that's right.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Who we're CEO of our watch, and she's very much involved with, you know, part of the world that I dip my toe into in my professional life, uh, as a, you know, sort of with brand and communications.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, she's heavily involved in that prevention of domestic violence and gender equality space.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I learn so much from her all the time as well.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: But Tim Lincoln, you know, who's involved with data analytics, which I think is absolutely fantastic and it's going to give us a competitive edge, don't understand the first thing about it.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: So everybody comes from a different point of view and a different part of their life and asks questions, obviously, to their expertise.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so listening to the questions and the answers, you're learning so much as well.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I can certainly see your enthusiasm for your work.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I must say that I think work is often can often feel like it's a very healing thing to do because you're actually focused on others.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Have you found that for you, your work has been, I suppose, a godsender sorts because you are so engaged and have always worked, as have I, and it allows you to focus outside of your own head and your own needs and your own self.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: Do you find that?
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like being in a board in that context, what you're saying is you're listening and absorbing other journeys and expertise.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: I look, I've always loved what I do, always.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, after Ben died, it probably was the first time in my life that I was doing it.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: I had this financial pressure.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: I have to now look after my life and these children and make money.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: And before it had never been about that.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: I was doing well because I loved what I did and I did what I did well, and I had great relationships.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it took a while for that to come back, where the worry about how was I going to get through each month.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and I know you know what I'm talking about.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: I so know what you're talking about.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: I really hear you.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, I know so many women who who have that same understanding.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: But this is like with the with the school, with the football club, I'm on the board of the Australian Dementia Network, these are not-for-profit positions.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I volunteer and there's no payment.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got to love it because you're putting in your time and your passion.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: And there are some days where you're just like, I don't want to deal with this problem today, but you know, that's why you're there.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then things are going well and it all pays off.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, on that note, part of your work, which you have obviously done a lot of recently, um, is as a crisis media manager.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, recently you're embroiled in a crisis with the collateral damage that often reverberates when you are a media and crisis manager, can be quite unpredictable.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it can be a fine line.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I know this was a challenging time.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: And as you insisted in the financial review article on that Bainbridge meta-amphetamine drama that occurred, I am not the story.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: And you, you know, that was the headline, and you and I have spoken about that.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, what are the trials and tribulations of being a crisis manager, which many people you've helped a lot of people facing very immediate public scrutiny?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: And how hard is it to navigate?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this one in particular was a tough one, but ultimately it's all about trust, is that right?
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like you have to, they have to trust you, you have to trust them, and you have to go on this path, trying to protect them is really the aim of what you do.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely it is.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I always say to people at the beginning, and this is excluding tragedies or things that are really unforeseen, and you've just got to help a company that's going through something.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: But it is about, you have three choices.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: I always you you either did it and you accept that you did it, and you step up and admit it and say what you're doing to fix it.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: You did it, you didn't know you did it, and therefore you are now aware and on the path to fixing it, or you absolutely didn't do it, you absolutely deny it, and you can prove that you didn't do it.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so once you've made that one decision, then it's quite, you know, in that sense, now it's executional and it's been there to support the person who's in that situation, or the company, or the organization.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: And what tends to happen is no matter how many crisis preparedness, simulated crises, how many, you know, crisis books there are or have been produced, there's at that moment no one's prepared.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because actually, when it's your thing and it's you emotionally embroiled in something that is really difficult and nuanced, and we know the media doesn't deal well with nuance.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it is quickly developing trust to say, you got to trust me, this is the way we have to handle this, because to really take control of the narrative is the most important thing in a crisis.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: And doing that is often an uncomfortable place to be because you've got to get rid of nuance.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: And one of those three options that I outlined before has to be where you go forward.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you're seeing people at their absolute worst and most vulnerable, and often it's a moment of sort of either career-ending for someone or someone being put in a position where they haven't been here before and they're having to step up.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: And everybody's got their voice in their head saying, you know, I'm an imposter and everyone's going to see through me.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's making sure that you boost the confidence of the people that you're working with and you're facilitating sort of the narrative and the messaging and keeping everyone going in the same direction.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you must be, you must have a very strong sense, and I know you do, in that context, the pressures are quite intense.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I was actually thinking about this because I was thinking when you and I started out, okay, like the media's become an octopus now.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, many, many, many, many more tentacles than when you and I started out.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: And remember, you used to have to wait 24 hours for the afternoon edition.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, and wait till you hear that, you know, well, certainly for the press in my context, you'd wait for the printing to start and you'd know that, you know, you had to grab the afternoon edition to get the article out.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: Now social media turns everything around in a flash so quick.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you've got to be smart.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: So being a media manager requires a whole other skill set.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I suppose you find yourself in the hub of a crisis that really is multifaceted, but also extremely urgent.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have, you know, a day or two or even 24 hours often.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's really about convincing the client to, you know, go forward with information before they have all the facts.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you can't wait, as you say.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: Social media will take over and then you're replying and you're responding and you're defending much better to what you can say, say it quickly, and make sure that you know you've got, and then you know where the news cycle is going to go as well.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that, you know, it comes back exactly as you said, it's about trust because it's really hard when you've got six executives in a room and all of them start playing.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I had this yesterday with a group, and then you've you've kind of agreed the messaging, and I'm going, right, we're going out.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, oh, can we just change this?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: And we're back to actually something that was like at the beginning.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: And you're going, I'm calling it, it's going.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, people have just got to hold their breath.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I always say.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's not going to be perfect, but it we're going to have our story first.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of that's how I react.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: And you go along with the ride, and you know, and hope and pray that it gets embraced.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's interesting because obviously the name of your company narrative is a great name because it really is about that.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I always say, well, through what lens are we looking?
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and obviously it's the similar concept, like, and it's the same you learned very early on as a journalist.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's about the lens that you put on things and trying to be even-handed.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, in your role as a crisis media manager, it is very much about you trusting them and they'd have to trust you and your judgment.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: But you have a lot of experience in that area, other than this recent very dramatic experience, which, as you said, you weren't the story.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: Other than that, is there anything else that that you saw a great outcome that really from this sort of crisis management work that, you know, it might may have been somebody that you've worked with that you could see were was really misrepresented, and you had a you helped them, be it company or person.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: Is there something that springs to mind, a positive story?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, I mean, it was a well, it was a crisis story, which which ended not a happy ending, but at least a just ending, where one of my clients, who's a child care center developer, a current affair, was doing a story and had um had footage already of tradies who weren't being paid for the work they'd done, actually going in and sort of destroying the work that they had put together in these centres and were blaming the company that I was working with.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now it turns out that my client had paid the contractor who was paying the tradies.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: He had done the wrong thing, but he wasn't available.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: He'd gone AWOL, no one was able to find him.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, with current affairs programs, sometimes it's easier to find the one you can find.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: And they didn't want to believe that my client wasn't responsible and they already had this great vision and didn't want to let go of the story.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a matter of absolutely working.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this there's two things.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: One is getting on the front foot as quickly as possible, and most people leave it later, hoping it'll go away or it won't get worse.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then the second thing is I think a lot of people who haven't been journalists, who maybe who work in in PR and then are in a crisis situation, are just afraid to talk to a journalist as a person and say, hang on, you've got it wrong.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so if you've got the proof points and the story and you can rationally talk to someone as a person saying, you've got it wrong.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: Let me, you know, the person you should be going after is this.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: And here's all the proof, the payments have been made.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: They step down, the story didn't run.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: So what are your hopes for the future in terms of what you'd like to see progress, both with business, personally, family-wise?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: What are you what are your dreams?
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: Where do I see myself in five years' time?
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: Or even in a year's time, even in 12 months' time.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe uh living in Paris in a perfect.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I you know, I've never, I think the stupid key to my life has been just saying yes.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, it was Richard Branson who said it.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I worked with him many years ago, and he said, just say yes.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so there has been no grand plan.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, if I'm not enjoying what I'm doing, I would say, what is the point?
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd do something else.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I do, and while I enjoy it, continuing to do what I enjoy feels like the right thing.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the board work I'm finding really challenging and interesting, and I suspect that I will continue to do that.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, for the moment, it's just about the kind of making sure that, you know, the family unit is happy.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: We're still having adventures, planning to go to Europe at the end of the year.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and just working with people who are really good in businesses that are interesting.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I have to say I've loved chatting to you as always, and it's so great to reconnect and to just reflect on all of the, and we could talk forever because we have so much to share, but we I really, really appreciate you coming on and and sharing your truth and lessons learned.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I look forward to seeing what you do next.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's been great catching up with you.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, Lara, thank you for joining us on the What I've Learned Podcast.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: The What I've Learned Podcast will now be coming to you weekly, with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: Love Death.