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IFH 763: How to Outline Your Screenplay Like a Pro with Naomi Beaty · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You are listening to the ifh podcast Network. For more
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  Speaker 1: amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifhpodcastnetwork dot com.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, Episode number seven
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  Speaker 2: sixty three. Writing is painting of the Voice, Anonymous.
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  Speaker 1: Broadcasting from the back alley and Hollywood. It's the Indie
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  Speaker 1: Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive
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  Speaker 1: and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of
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  Speaker 2: And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another
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  Speaker 2: episode of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast. I am your
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  Speaker 2: humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise
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  Speaker 2: Dot filmbizbook dot com. That's film bizbook dot com. Now, guys,
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: today we have on the show Naomi Betty and Naomi
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: is written a new book about how to outline your screenplay.
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  Speaker 2: It's something so important in regards to structure, in regards
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  Speaker 2: to character, in cards, the theme, in regards to plot,
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  Speaker 2: and so much more. But her new book is a
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  Speaker 2: workbook where you can literally write in the book and
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  Speaker 2: outline your script as you're going through it. It really
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  Speaker 2: opens up a lot of creativity, doesn't stifle it like
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  Speaker 2: so many screenwriters think that it's going to stop your creativity.
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  Speaker 2: If you've got it all structured out, you absolutely need
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: to and you're going to hear all about it in
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  Speaker 2: this episode. So, without any further ado, please enjoy my
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: conversation with Naomi Betty. I'd like to welcome back to
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: the show returning champion nail Me Betty. Hey didn't tail me?
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  Speaker 3: Hi, I'm good. How are you?
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: I'm good, I'm good. Thank you so much for coming
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  Speaker 2: back on the show. You have a new book. Hold on,
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: let me just lift it over here. It's the Screenwriting
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  Speaker 2: Outline Work Book. It's really not that big, guys, I'm
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  Speaker 2: just making it, but it's fast. It's a really great
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: you know, as I was going through it, it's, man,
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  Speaker 2: it's really cool. It has some really great guys. Idance
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  Speaker 2: is on how to put together a screenplay, which is now,
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  Speaker 2: there's not a lot of this that in the marketplace.
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  Speaker 2: I haven't seen a lot of this kind of I mean,
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  Speaker 2: there's a couple of screenwriting books, not too many.
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  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, there's a few, there's.
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  Speaker 2: A few, but I haven't seen anything like this before.
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  Speaker 2: So we're going to kind of dive into the book
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  Speaker 2: and what you're doing in it. But first can you
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: give everybody a little update on who you are and
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: if the case they haven't heard the first episode.
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well sure, the first episode was years ago,
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  Speaker 4: so much has changed since then. I'm pretty much still
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: the same though still doing the same thing. So I'm
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  Speaker 4: a screenwriting teacher and script consultant. I work with writers also,
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: you know, directors and producers one on one on their projects,
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  Speaker 4: giving them feedback at the script level and sometimes even
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: starting earlier than that, helping them develop ideas so that
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  Speaker 4: they can get the script written. But yeah, basically just
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: working with anyone who has a movie idea to kind
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: of get that idea, you know, into screenplay form and
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: hopefully in good shape so they can start showing it
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  Speaker 4: to people.
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  Speaker 2: Very good. So first question, yeah, what is a screenplay outline?
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  Speaker 2: Because I like, how do you go about it? What
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  Speaker 2: is it? How do you put it together?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's a great question because I think
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  Speaker 4: a lot of people set out to write a screenplay
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  Speaker 4: and they decide they need to outline it, and then
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  Speaker 4: they quickly come to the next question, which is what
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  Speaker 4: is an outline? And I think, you know, when it
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  Speaker 4: comes to outlining your screenplay, I just think of outlining
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  Speaker 4: as part of the pre writing process. So it's just
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  Speaker 4: part of the process that helps you develop your idea
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  Speaker 4: and flesh it out and get it to a point
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  Speaker 4: where you know enough about it in order to write
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  Speaker 4: screenplay pages and whatever form that takes. You know, what
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  Speaker 4: it looks like on the page in the outline form
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  Speaker 4: can be a lot of different things. It's what is
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  Speaker 4: the most useful to you. So a screenplay outline is
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  Speaker 4: really a tool for you to use sort of on
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  Speaker 4: the you know, on the path toward getting your screenplay written.
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  Speaker 4: For most people, it's you know, an numbered list of
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  Speaker 4: scenes or a bullet bullet point list of scenes or beats,
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  Speaker 4: you know, plot beats that just sort of take you
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  Speaker 4: from page one to the end, so that you have
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  Speaker 4: sort of a map to help you write the actual
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  Speaker 4: screenplay itself.
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  Speaker 2: So the next the next statement I have is what
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  Speaker 2: I always hear from people, especially young screenwriters. They say,
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  Speaker 2: but outlining takes all the creativity out of it. It's
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  Speaker 2: so structured and and it's formulaic. And I don't want
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  Speaker 2: to be Hollywood. I want to be free flow. I
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  Speaker 2: want to be like Quentin. I just want to jump
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  Speaker 2: back and forth. And this and that, and I always
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  Speaker 2: tell him. I hate to tell you, but Quentin use
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  Speaker 2: a structure and pulp fiction very structured and actually goes
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  Speaker 2: through the beats of which is why that script is
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: so cheaps. It actually goes through all the beats, but
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: in different timelines. And it makes the head hurt reading
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  Speaker 2: that script and trying to break that script down. But
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  Speaker 2: that's a master and that's what he does. So what
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  Speaker 2: what's your answer to people who's that this just takes
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  Speaker 2: all the creativity out.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I've heard that too, and I.
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  Speaker 4: Understand that concern, right, because it sort of feels like
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  Speaker 4: if I do all of the creative thinking in the
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  Speaker 4: outline form and get everything figured out and written down
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  Speaker 4: before I get to writing screenplay pages, then I'm not
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  Speaker 4: going to have anything left when I get to the pages.
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to be.
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  Speaker 4: Bored by my own story and just you know, transcribing
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  Speaker 4: it from outline to screenplay page. And I understand that concern,
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  Speaker 4: but I wholeheartedly disagree with it. And you know, every
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  Speaker 4: writer is different, and everyone has their own unique sort
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  Speaker 4: of process and way of fleshing out an idea. However,
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  Speaker 4: I think that the outlining process can actually be a
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  Speaker 4: really creative part of the process, right, Like, why do
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  Speaker 4: you think that just because you're doing you're putting your
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  Speaker 4: creativity into the outline, does that mean that there's not
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  Speaker 4: going to be any creativity left in your screenplay?
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  Speaker 3: Right?
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  Speaker 4: You're actually doing a lot of that creative hit heavy
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  Speaker 4: lifting when you're thinking about, well, how do I structure this,
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: how do I develop the character arc, how do I you.
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  Speaker 3: Know, make sure the relationships.
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  Speaker 4: Are are sort of developed all the way from beginning
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  Speaker 4: to end, and they're seamless and they have a function
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  Speaker 4: and you know, an emotion to them and all of
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  Speaker 4: that stuff. So I think you can do a lot
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  Speaker 4: of that while you're in the outline phase, so that
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  Speaker 4: by the time you get to writing screenplay pages, it's
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  Speaker 4: not that you've beaten a dead horse.
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  Speaker 3: And you've you know, sort of taken all the fun
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  Speaker 3: out of it for yourself.
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  Speaker 4: You've done so much of the heavy lifting and put
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  Speaker 4: a lot of creativity in at that phase. But when
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  Speaker 4: you get to writing scenes, you get to have a
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  Speaker 4: lot of fun with what happens in a scene, right, Like,
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  Speaker 4: how does that come to life?
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  Speaker 3: What's the most.
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  Speaker 4: Entertaining, interesting way for that thing that you figured out
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  Speaker 4: that needs to happen, Right, you figured that out in
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  Speaker 4: the screenplay outline, what's the most interesting cinematic way for
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  Speaker 4: that to play out? You know, in your screen screenplay pages,
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  Speaker 4: and then in the mind's eye.
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  Speaker 3: Right, So I think that you can be creative and every.
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  Speaker 2: Step so in other words, like so the structure literally
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  Speaker 2: you're you're basically beating it out or putting the points
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  Speaker 2: of things that have to happen in each scene. So
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  Speaker 2: it's like, Okay, John has to hit Joe in this
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  Speaker 2: scene because this is the catalyst for this part of
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  Speaker 2: the store. Now, how that breaks down in that scene,
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  Speaker 2: it's completely up to you. You can make it really fun.
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  Speaker 2: At the end of the day, he has to get
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  Speaker 2: from point eight to point B. How you get between
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  Speaker 2: point eight and point b is completely up to you.
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  Speaker 2: And that's part of the creative process that at least
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  Speaker 2: you have something to start with, as opposed to a
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  Speaker 2: lot of writers, including myself when I first started, just
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  Speaker 2: like I'm just gonna start and see what happens and
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  Speaker 2: just let it flow. And it's just bits hot mess.
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  Speaker 2: It's a hot mess because you don't know where you're going.
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  Speaker 2: And I also don't have the at that at that
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  Speaker 2: stage in my career didn't have the the craft built up.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, if Eric Roth wants to sit down and
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  Speaker 2: start writing from scratch without an outline, I'm gonna say
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  Speaker 2: it's gonna be better than most, right, you know, but
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  Speaker 2: you have to build up that craft, and I think
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  Speaker 2: the structure is so needed. And you can't build a
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  Speaker 2: house without a foundation of without.
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  Speaker 3: Structure, right.
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  Speaker 4: And you make a really good point because I think,
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  Speaker 4: like you know, Eric Roth, Aaron Sorkin, if those guys
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  Speaker 4: at that caliber, if they sit down to write a screenplay,
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  Speaker 4: they've done this for so long and have such an
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  Speaker 4: innate sense of like how a screenplay works, not just
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  Speaker 4: story structure, because I think all of us have a
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: little bit of that innate sense of story structure, but.
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  Speaker 3: They've got it like ingrained.
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  Speaker 4: They know story structure in screenplay form and sort of
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  Speaker 4: what needs to happen page by page on a screenplay,
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: how the rhythm is, you know, how characters develop, where
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: you see complications and things like that. Those guys could
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: probably sit down and write a pretty good draft without
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: without doing an outline first. But for a lot of us,
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: and for most of us, I think, you know, there
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: are so many things that you have to remember when
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: you're writing a good screenplay. If you're trying to write
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: a good screenplay, so many skill sets.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: Right, we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: And so I think thinking through the plot and character
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  Speaker 4: development in the outline phase actually take some of the
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: pressure off of you. It allows you to kind of,
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  Speaker 4: you know, pay attention to certain skill sets at this
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  Speaker 4: point in time, and then when you get to screenplay
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  Speaker 4: pages you can pay attention to other skill sets. You
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  Speaker 4: can think about dialogue and scene description and you know,
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: getting in the scene late and getting out early, and
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: you know, thinking in visuals like cinematic stuff right to
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  Speaker 4: make it appealing in terms of.
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  Speaker 3: Being a movie. So you have so many skill sets
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  Speaker 3: to worry about.
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  Speaker 4: I think that you know, giving some of them your
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: attention in different phases will only help you end up
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: with a better product, you.
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  Speaker 2: Know, without question. Now, so many times we want to
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: figure out what the ideas are. Do you have any
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: idea generating you know, the ways to generate some ideas
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: about themes about that ideas all that kind of stuff.
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely, I do have a couple I mean, thank
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: you for teeing me up. I do have a couple
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: of exercises in the book that are all about generating
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  Speaker 4: concepts for screenplays, right, because it seems like people who
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: get stuck at sort of the idea phase when they
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: can't decide how to move forward with one project they have,
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: like they get stuck in two different ways. One it's
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: either they have too many ideas and they don't know
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: which one to do first or to work on first.
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: And then the other thing is like, I don't know,
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: I want to write a screenplay, but I don't have
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: an idea for a movie, right. So one of the
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: things that I put in the book was a couple
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: of exercises that can help you generate concepts by you know,
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: sort of playing games, because I think that's the most
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: low pressure way to do it is look at treat
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: it like a game and just have fun with it.
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: So there are a couple in there about like mixing
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: and matching you know, different elements and kind of generating concepts,
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  Speaker 4: and I think, you know, an important part of it
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  Speaker 4: is just generating a lot of ideas because that's the
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: only way you're not going to get precious about the
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: one idea that you're sure as an Oscar winner and
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: it's going to be a million dollars back sale. If
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: you have lots of ideas, then you can kind of
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: be a little bit more you know, gracious with yourself
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  Speaker 4: about like, you know what, maybe that one's not going
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: to work this year because I don't have the craft yet,
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: or maybe that's not such a great idea after all.
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: It's better as a novel or a comic book or
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: something like that. And you can, you know, have allow yourself.
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  Speaker 3: To be a little bit more choosy about which screenplays
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: you're gonna write.
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  Speaker 2: Now. I have to talk into so many screenwriters over
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: the years, you know, off air and on. I love
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: the off air ones because that's when I really get
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: some movie stuff that I can't that I can't broadcast unfortunately.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: But I've been told by many of these top screenwriters
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: that they they borrow structure from other movies very I
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: mean the call wholeheartedly, Like you know, like I saw
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: this movie and I took its structure, change the story around,
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: and change the ideas around, but and the characters around
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: the structures there. And I always love using this example
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: because it's so blatant, and after I tell this, most
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: people go, I can't believe I never saw that before
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: Fast and Furious. It's point break, Yeah, it's I mean
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: they didn't even try to change it. They just change
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: surfing to race cars and a couple of other carrac
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: I mean it's pretty much the same movie, right.
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yes.
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: I have actually not done like a side by side comparison,
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: but I think that'd be really interesting to do, because
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: the broad strokes of it, for sure are it's the same.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: You know, it's the same story. So that's another thing
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: for screenwriters, you know, starting up to look at other
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: movies that they might admire and start with those structures.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: I think that's one thing that's always been a lot
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: of people think it's taboo, but all the great start
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: with other people's All artists start with other people's ideas
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: and try to emulate other people's ideas, and then as
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: you start working through it, then you start coming up
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: with your own style. But structure is structure. I mean
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: it's like, why wouldn't you take a blueprint of a
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: house that worked and worked well and then dress it
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: up however you want to dress it up and change
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: the walls. You know, out a door here, put a
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: door there, change the roofside stile. But at the end
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: of the day, it's a structure that sells.
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: Does that me? I totally agree.
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: And I always tell writers, especially you know writers who
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: are trying to get a handle on screenwriting, right, who
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: are kind of early in their learning curve, I always
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: tell them to study movies. And you know, I think
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: we all we all probably watch a lot of movies,
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: but I do think it's a helpful exercise to like
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: choose one or two and really break those particular movies
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: down and study them, because I think you learn a
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: lot from not just viewing it once or twice, or
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: even if it's one of your favorite movies and you've
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: seen it a lot and you can quote it and
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: all that stuff, but if you really like take the
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: time to sort of examine it, almost like a you know,
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: doctor patient kind of exam, Like make a list of
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: all the scenes that happen. Look at that list and examine,
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: like where does the insighting INTI happen? Where does the
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: break into Act two happen? Notice the relationships between those
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: two plot points, right, because there is they have to
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: work together in a particular way, look at that midpoint
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: and see how does this midpoint work, Like, what does
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: it do for the story, How does it, you know,
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: make things harder or make things more urgent? Examine all
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: of those big turning points, because I think you learn
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: a ton from not just understanding theory and understanding like
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: the definitions of plot points and things like that, but
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: really looking at the way that they work in movies,
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: and especially in one particular movie. And I think that
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: an extension of that exercise, if I can just keep
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: going here, is that paying attention to the difference between
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: just like we were talking about, like when you make
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: a screenplay outline, right, you might have a bullet point
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: list if here are the things that need to happen,
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: just point by point. Joe needs to punch Tom, right,
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: that's one bullet point, and the next one something else happens.
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: But making that bullet point list for the movie that
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: you're studying, because then you get to see, oh, here's
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: what happens Joe punch is Tom. But here's how it
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: happens in that scene. Like it's funny or it's a
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: you know, it's an ambush, or it's a it starts
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: out a romantic scene and it ends in a punch?
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: How does that happen? Right?
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: Because you get to like really understand there's a difference
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: between the what is happening, the plot thing that's happening,
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: and the cool, interesting, fun way that that can play
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: out on screen, which can be a million different ways.
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: And you know, you're saying, structure is the same from
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: you know, across sort of lots of movies, right, That's true.
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: And then the how, the how it happens on screen
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: is what makes it uniquely entertaining. You know, It's what
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: makes one movie different from the other one.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: It's the color of the walls, it is, the dressing,
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: is the furniture in the room. It's you know, if
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: we're using the analogy of a blueprint in a house,
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: all of that makes a difference, you know. Yeah, it's
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: all about how you add the little details to it. Yeah,
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: you know there is when what when we're looking at
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: a movie, sometimes we don't know whose story it is.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: Especially when we're starting to write a movie, we don't
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: know whose story it is. So I always like using
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: Shawshank as an example because everyone knows it by nausea.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: Now that I saw Shank's my favorite movie of all time.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: And uh that that you I truly And I've asked
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: a lot of you know, experts like yourself, like whose
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: story is it? Is it Andy's story or is it
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: read story? Who is the protagonist in that movie? You
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: know whose story is it? So that's a very important
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: distinction to have when writing, because if you don't know
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: whose story it is, you know whose story is fight Club? Right?
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Is it Tyler dirtis?
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: I actually had just another another example, kind of in
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: the same vein come up or come to me.
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: Yesterday I rewatched Fargo.
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: I hadn't seen that movie since I originally watched it
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: back in like ninety six or whenever it came out
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: right in my head in those intervening years. I believed
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: that was Marge Jenderson's movie, right, And I rewatched it
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: and I was like, oh, oh no, I was completely
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: misremembering this. This is now I'm totally blanking on his name.
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: But it's the husband. Yeah, it's a husband. Yeah, it's
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: his He's the lead character. He's the central character in
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: that story. It's we start with him, We're watching what
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: he's doing. It's his actions that are driving the story forward.
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: She comes in like thirty five minutes in to investigate,
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: you know, what he's been doing, but we're with him
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: from the beginning. I was like, that is so interesting
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: that I remembered it being her story. I think because
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: I assumed the investigator on the scene is going to
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: be the one kind of driving the story forward, but
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: it's actually his story, And.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: It's really comp you start getting into a complex conversation
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: about something like Shawshrek, because I mean, who drives the story?
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: Is Andy? Right, but yet who's telling us the story?
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're seeing the story through Red's eyes, and yeah,
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: Red does do a few things to help along the way,
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: but Andy's the one driving story, right, you know, and
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: also their interaction is driving the store. So it's a
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: very complex idea, am I right?
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely? And same with Fargo.
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: I think that you know, I'm sort of like saying
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: that so easily that oh no, it's his story. I
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: actually think it almost plays like an ensemble where it's
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: like we start with him, it really is his through
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: line kind of that gives us the movie.
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: It's fine, but the other.
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: Characters are so equally important that it's not super easy
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: to just say, oh, no, it's just this character's story
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: and that's all we should be concerned with.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: You know, it's really all of them that make it work.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: So something like a Sherlock Holmes or Knives Out kind
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: of scenario, which is a murder mystery or a mystery
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: in general, it's generally the detective whose story it is,
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: because we're seeing everything through their eyes generally speaking, So
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: Knives Out, it's Daniel Craig right walking through the the
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: whole movie. We're walking through with Daniel Daniel Gregg's eyes. Essentially.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: I think.
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: So, I actually only saw that movie once, and I
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: think I may have fallen asleep in.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: The movie, not because it wasn't wasn't good. I just
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: I watched it late.
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: But but yeah, I think if if the movie is
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: sort of centered on an investigation, almost always it's going
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: to be the person doing the investigating, right, because that's
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: the sort of like through line of action that we're
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: that we're paying attention to. It's the reason this story
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: exists is because there's something to investigate, and the person
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: doing the investigation is who we're kind of like watching
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: do the thing and hopefully we're rooting for.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: Them, you know, so like clear Reason, Signs of the Lamps,
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: it's all worse. It's her. It's definitely her story, no
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: question about it.
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: I call it her story for sure. I don't know
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: if anyone would disagree, but yeah, I think it's But who.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: You remember from that movie is not much as Hannibal.
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, And I think you remember, you really remember
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: their relationship. That's a movie that I you know, maybe
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: two or three years ago. That was one that I
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: really started studying. I was like, I want to understand
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: how this one works. And I think prior to that,
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: I had.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: Assumed that.
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: Clarice's sort of through line was really about Hannibal. And
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: then when I rewatched it, you know, and this was
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: like three or four years ago whatever, but I started
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: sort of watching it to study it a little bit more,
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: and I realized, oh, no, Like, she meets him early on,
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: but then her investigation is her investigation, and then she
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: brings him back into it again. But it's not his
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: story at all. It's you know, it's what he can
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: do for her. It's him in support of her story
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: for sure, it's it's.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: It's fascinating to say. And another thing when we were
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: talking about structure and finding structures of movies that we
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: that you know, studying other people's other other movie structures
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: in possibly using the structures in your own stories. I
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: think a really good exercise is to analyze your top
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: ten because it's if it means something to you, if
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: you are, and then you can start seeing the patterns
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: you're like, you know, if you like revenge movies, well
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: maybe you should write a revenge movie. If you like horror,
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: maybe you should write horr If you love romance, you
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: maybe want to write romance as opposed to like, I
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: really love horror, but I'm gonna make when when Harry
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: met Sally, I'm like, that's probably not gonna work out.
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: Maybe that could be a whole new rom.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: Come Jason Bloom will produce it about Yeah, I like that.
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: No, I agree, And as an extension of that, I
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: will say too, I think when you have when you
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: have a few like movie ideas under your belt, not
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: that you have to have written the screenplays yet, but
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: when you've like sort of you know, practice developing an idea,
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: kind of teasing it out to see kind of what's
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: there and maybe maybe gott into an outline stage, who knows.
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: I also think it's really interesting and useful to sort
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: of look at the common themes between those ideas, because
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: I think a lot of times writers kind of circle
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: the same thematic ideas in their projects without realizing it.
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: And I see this sometimes.
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: You know, not to embarrass anyone, but I see this
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: sometimes because I work with certain writers over several projects
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: and I'm like, oh, so this one is also about
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: you know, familial obligation, or this.
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: One your dad, right about your dad exactly.
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: This one is also about you know, that sort of
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: that same issue that you find really interesting.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: And I think it's I think it's.
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: Kind of funny that, you know, often writers don't even
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: realize they're doing it. They're like, oh, yeah, I guess
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: I'm kind of writing the same story over again, you know,
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: different concept, but dealing with the same issues or types
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: of relationships or something like that. I think that's really
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: interesting to examine, because you know, if you find that
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: about yourself, if you're like, oh, I kind of keep
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: going back to that same well because that's an issue
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: that's really interesting to me, then you can lean into that, right,
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: that can become kind of part of your calling card,
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: your voice, your portfolio, you know that you put out there.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, it's your superpower. It's it's you're
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: really starting to get that that secret sauce that's yours
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: if you're passionate about. I mean, look more, Efron, she
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: really found her superpower, you know, Quentin found his superpower,
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: and Aaron found that like you know, Shan Shane Black.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: They all found that thing that they really resonate with
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: and leaned into it. As opposed to I mean, I'm
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: sure a Shane Black romantic comedy would be extremely interesting.
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: Yes, I think it right, I think.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: A Tarantino romantic comedy would be extremely interesting. But it's
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: not something that they lean into, you know. So that's
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: something to think about as you're moving forward.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: In your book, you also talk about the four elements
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: essential elements of a story foundation. Can you tell us
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: what those four elements are?
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think there they sound really basic,
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: but they's something that every story needs, right, So you
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: need your protagonist or your central character.
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: However you want to think about that. Sometimes you might
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: be dealing with an ensemble.
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: Or a pair, but I just sort of for default sake,
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: I call it a protagonist. Right, That's number one, the
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: story goal that they're trying to achieve over the course
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: of the story, because the entire movie is based on
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: the pursuit of that end point.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: Right, That's that gives the story its structure.
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: The opposition, or you can think of it as the antagonist, right,
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: the main obstacle or main thing standing in your protagonist's way.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: And then the stakes. Why why do they want to
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: achieve this goal? Why?
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: Why is it important to them what happens if they fail?
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: There's some motivation there to keep them going right.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: All right? And then always I always find out about
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: everyone's always figuring it thinking about the hero's journey or
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: the three acts structure. Why is the three act structure
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: the most popular? Not four acts or five act or
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: seven act structure that you know some some projects, especially
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: plays have you know? Why is it always the three
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: act structure that everyone kind of leans into in Hollywood?
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think by default we talk about movies in
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: three X structure. It's sort of become the common language
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: of the industry. Right, we sort of have all agreed that,
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: like this is sort of the framework for movies. You
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: have three acts. You have a setup, an escalation, and
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: a resolution, and that just is sort of, you know,
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: the baseline. It's how most movies work. Not every movie.
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but mainstream movies
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: kind of tend to have that structure, and they they
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: follow a particular rhythm and a pace that we're used to, right,
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: And so those big turning points, those big structural blot points,
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: the inciting incident, the break indeck to all of those,
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: those create the pace of the movie. And that's why
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: there's so much you know, some people call them rules, right,
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: like your inciting incident has to happen like page twelve
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: or page ten or between ten and fifteen.
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: I usually say between ten and fifteen.
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: But why that's kind of why those rules are accepted
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: sort of rules, right, because if those big turning points
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: happen kind of in a timely fashion where we expect them,
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: that gives the story, that gives the movie the piecing
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: that we're used to, right, It gives it that familiar rhythm,
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: and it feels like things are happening on time and
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: quickly enough that we're not getting bored right. So to
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: answer your question, though, I think that the three act
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: structure is just sort of what we've all collectively agreed
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: is kind of the lowest common denominator structure and it
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: gives you that setup, escalation and resolution that we're all
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: familiar with in stories, and that works so well with
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: the length of feature films, you know.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: So there's other there's movies like I remember, like in
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: The Raiders of the Lost Ark, which has from what
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: I understand, five acts, but you can argue it has
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: three acts and a lot of five acts. A lot
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: of three acts could be argued that have five acts,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: and you could start kind of breaking it down. And
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: so is it kind of almost almost irrelevant to a
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: certain extent as long as you know you're hitting those beats.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: But a lot of these movies have different acts that
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: don't line up exactly the way we want it to.
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I would agree that it is largely irrelevant
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: because we don't have curtains on the movies that tell
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: you when the act.
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: Breaks happen, and so you know what I mean.
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: So this is all sort of like again, I think
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: remembering that that this is all in an effort to
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: have a particular effect.
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: On an audience. And that's why we.
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: Concern ourselves with structure, right, because we want our movies
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: to feel like they have a particular pace and a
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: particular you know, shape that is somewhat familiar but also
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: surprising and takes us on an emotional journey and all
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: of that stuff.
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: So that's why we pay attention to structure.
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: And that's not to say that every movie has to
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: fall into three act structure. There are definitely movies that
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: you could say have five acts, or sometimes people say
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: they have four acts, right, because you have act two
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: split into into two parts. I don't think it really
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: matters like you're saying. I think it's it's sort of irrelevant.
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: It's how it feels and is it delivering the effect
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: on the audience that you want it to have. Basically,
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: all of these like rules and tools and paradigms and
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: things that we try to study and try to adhere
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: to are in an effort to keep the audience from
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: being bored and to keep the audience reinvesting in the story. Right,
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: So as long as you can do that, who cares
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: how many acts you sat down to write it with.
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: But all of all that said, I do think it's
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: helpful for newer writers who are studying, you know, screenwriting
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: and trying to figure out how do I get this
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: story idea out of my head and into a screenplay.
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: I think it's useful for them to study the react
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: structure and to understand, like, what is that effect that
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: I'm trying to have on the audience at each turning
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: point or at each particular section of the script. When
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: I teach in some of my first draft workshops, I
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: use eight sequences, so you could look at those as
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: being eight acts, you know what.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, will be right back after a word from
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: our sponsor, and now back to the show. I think
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: what you're saying is just don't get caught up too
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: much in it. But if you're starting out, it is
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: the base, it is the foundation. The hero's journey, which
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: is so famously, you know, brought to our attention by
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: mister Joseph Campbell, is something that every writer, every storyteller,
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: needs to know, whether they use it or not. Mean
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: it's very difficult to use the hero's journey in a
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: detective store, right. It doesn't doesn't it doesn't line up,
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: But you should be able to know those things. These
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: are basic understandings that you need to know as a
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: screenwriter and if you're gonna make And this is a
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: frustration I've seen with a lot of screenwriters is they'll
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: write a screenplay and think they're very artistic, and then
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: they try to submit it to Hollywood and it doesn't
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: get any action, and they're like, why don't they recognize
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: my genius? Like go because you haven't played by Hollywood's rules.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: But I don't care if you like it or not.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: It's I mean, every big movie that gets made, any
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: any anything's made by a major studio has this kind
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: of structure that we're talking about, has these turning points
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: and point in no return, and it really does kind
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: of follow the hero's journey if it's if it's according
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: to the to the genre that they're writing in. So
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: you kind of, you know, fall into that. Now once
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: you build up and god forbid, have a career and
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: in the business of writing two three, you've sold three, four, five,
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: six scripts and have produced a whole bunch of stuff,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: and you want to start playing around, right then you
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: can start testing the waters because you have a name.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: If Quinton wants to come out and write whatever, the
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: hell he wants to write. He can have someone reading
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: a telephone book for two hours. Someone's gonna go watch it.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: Because so IF's Workin or Saint Black or any of
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: these great writers want to test the medium or push it,
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: they've deserved They've earned that, right, right, you can't do
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: that when you walk up well.
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: And also, yeah, I mean I totally agree.
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: And also, like we were saying before, any of those
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: writers that have really you know, been kind of in
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: the trenches for a long time and have ingrained those
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: that understanding of well, here's why, you know, we say
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: the inciting incident goes here, right, here's the effect I'm
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: trying to have on the audience. They know that that
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: effect is really just about like grabbing our attention and
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: letting us know the story is starting.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: So if they have.
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: Another way to do that that doesn't feel like a
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: traditional inciting incident, you know, they have that sort of
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: understanding of craft, whether they realize it or not, that
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: they can kind of like do something interesting and we go,
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: oh that works because I'm interested, you know, And that's
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: the whole point is like get your audience interested kind
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: of like you know, get us emotionally invested and then
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: keep us there as you tell us the story.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, but I think that if you're walking in
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: to Hollywood and trying to get a job in Hollywood,
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: I think living in that structured world to start is
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: probably the best, the best way to get in the
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: door and to build and to build a career up.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying to be formulaic, but right if everyone
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: that's I mean, that's what's selling.
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: And also, yeah, I mean writers, uh, have you know
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: voiced that concern a lot.
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: I think you know, when you talk about structure, a
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: lot of writers get worried that like it's.
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: Going to feel formulaic, it's going to feel like you know,
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: you know exactly what's coming and you can expect everything.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: I don't think that's the case.
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: It's like understanding that structure is a tool for the writer, right.
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: It gives you a starting point, a jumping off point
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: where you go, Okay, so here's here's three act structure.
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: I know, kind of broad strokes. Here's where the setup happens,
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: Here's where the escalation happens, Here's where the resolution happens.
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: That doesn't mean that you have to have things.
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: Occur in the most expected way or the way we've
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: seen happen a million times before. Right, there's there that
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: just gives you kind of the sandbox to play in,
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: and then it's up to you to find interesting ways
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: to convey the information that we need in order to
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: follow your story, you know.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: And I was watching a movie the other day, and
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: I can't remember because I watched so so much content
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: it's hard to keep it all together in my head.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: But I remember I was sitting there with my wife
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: watching a movie one night, and it was good and
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: were really intrigued with it. And then at the end
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: where it was like that that the all is lost
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: moment in the screen, which is towards the end of
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: the second act going into the third act. We didn't
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: see it coming. We knew that moment was going to come,
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: but how it came, it was like, oh, the mother's
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: the killer?
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: What?
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just like I didn't you just because
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: the writer and the director did such a good job,
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: you know, throwing red herrings out all over the place
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: that you just it just came out of nowhere, but
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: in a really good way. So there is always ways
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: to surprise and audience. But it's still going to happen
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: around that time. Now how it happens is up to you.
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, And I love it when a movie can
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: do that, right.
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: It doesn't when it doesn't feel expected or formulaic or
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: like I've seen it before.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, let's go back and this is a spoiler
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: alert sixth sense. If you haven't seen it, it's on you.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: The greatest, one of the greatest twists in movie history. Yeah,
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: happened at a structural point. It happened exactly where it
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: was supposed to happen. But boy did no one else.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: No one saw that coming, like, no one saw it coming.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: But it's still happened at the point where you're just like, oh,
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: that's the point where it was that turning point had
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: to happen like the way he did. It was just
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: like Home Cow.
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it all comes down to the effect on the audience, right,
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: because it was like that the audience had been led
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: to a point where that reveal had the most impact.
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: And that's you know, that's kind of what we're all
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: was talking about when it comes to structure.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: Well, and if you look at the movie like Psycho,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, let's look at that structure for a second.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: You you know again spoiler alert in nineteen sixties. Sorry,
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: but when she dies, when Norman kills her in the shower,
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: that's the beginning of the second act. Well, what's so
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: brilliant about that script is now you're like, but okay,
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: whose story? Oh wait a minute, they swapped out protagonists. Yeah,
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: which was so brilliant. You're just like the and like
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: you killed off the movie star in the first fifteen minutes.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: Like it was such a brilliant way, and no one
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: had ever done anything like that before. But again, again,
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: where did it happen? The inciting incident? That's the inciting
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: incident of the movie essentially, Am I right?
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: I think so?
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I haven't watched that movie in so long, but
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: I would believe you if you said this is the
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: inciting incident because again, because you know that you're trying
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: to have a particular effect on the audience, and it's
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: like that makes sense for that to happen right there,
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: because that shakes things up, right. It tells us that
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: something is changing and the story is starting now because
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: this just happened, you.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: Know exactly exactly now we're not We've been talking a
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: lot about structure. Let's talk about character a little bit, Yeah,
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: how do you develop an engaging main character? That's if
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: you have any tips.
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: On that A good question, and I think they're you know,
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: probably a million different ways.
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: However, I do.
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: Think it's useful to think about, like what is sort
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: of reverse engineer, right, and think about what are the
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: ways that an audience or an individual person becomes engaged
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: in a story, right, Because the story that we're watching
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: comes through the protagonist's character. We're watching one particular character
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: story usually, so thinking about like what engages us, And
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: a lot of times it's those those like emotions that
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: you know you can rely on to get somebody invested.
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: So it's you know, engaging our empathy for a character,
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: showing us that there's someone that we that we should
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: care about or you know, want to care about, and
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: there's a reason to care about them, engaging our our
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: sort of like tension or fear about what might happen
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: for them, the anticipation that something bad might happen. So
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: if you put a character in jeopardy, then we sort
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: of lean in and we go, oh, this is this
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: is a character I'm interested in in following. I want
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: to know what happens to them and I care about it.
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: And then also I think getting us to like a character.
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: There's so much that about, you know, making your character likable,
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: and I know that writers here hate to hear that
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: that your character.
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: Has to be like well, and I'm not saying that
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: at all actually, but.
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: Getting us to either like them or admire them, or
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: find them appealing in some way, I think is a
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: really useful thing to think about. That is so simple
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: and so often overlooked, right, Like, thinking about making your
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: character appealing should be It should be kind of a
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: you know, one of the early things that you think about.
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: Because if you think about this in terms of, like
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: it's a product that you're trying to sell to someone.
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: The movie is a product, right.
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: There's got to be appealing selling points about it, and
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: so hopefully your protagonist, your central character, is one of
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: those selling points, one of those appealing selling points. So
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: thinking about like can you make them funny, can you
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: make them good at what they do? Can you give
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: them like unique talents or skills or even sometimes just
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: a unique personality that is engaging. Those are little tricks
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: to kind of like hook hook our interest and start
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: to get us to lean in.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, in a movie in recent years that did
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: this so beautifully was Joker. I mean, yes, I need
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: I mean Joker. You literally, he's a villain. He's one
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: of the great villains of all time, not only cinematic
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: but in the in literature. He's really brilliantly written villain.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: And yet how do you identify with a villain? And man,
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: did they just structure that story and that character is
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: so you feel the insanity of what it's like to
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: be the Joker and totally and you're going through that
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: your journey with him, and at the end you feel better, like, yeah,
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: he's doing Hainus stuff. But you're like, but I get it,
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: Like I understand where you're coming from. It's not just
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: the twisting of the mustache one dimension. It is right,
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: layer upon layer upon layer upon layer with that movie. Ye,
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: that was so done so beautifully. We'll be right back
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: after a word from our sponsor and now back to
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: the show.
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: And if they had relied on you know, I think
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: this does happen actually in a lot of sort of
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: newer writer scripts where they go, well, this character is
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: just fascinating because he's a character we love to hate, right,
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: Like he's just an anti hero and he just does
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: terrible things and that's why he's fascinating.
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: And sometimes I think that might be able to work.
• 40:29
  Speaker 4: Like I wouldn't say that it could never work, but
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: if you think about it, the thing that made Joker
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: such a such a compelling character, right, is that it
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: played on our empathy. It that movie did such a
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: like you're saying, such a beautiful job of like showing
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: us this character who isn't good, but there's so much
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: that's in him that we can understand why he is
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: the way he is, right, And I think it's human
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: nature to have empathy for other people, So that movie
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: does such a good job of playing on our own
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: empathy like as humans. And then also I think a
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: little bit it plays on kind of the same appeal
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: that like True Crime does. We want to understand how
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: this person got this way and what makes them do
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: the things they do, so like the sort of dual
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: you know, qualities in people of empathy and curiosity.
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: I think that movie like hit it on the head
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: with that character.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: And that they made his maniacal laugh an illness. Yes, yeah,
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: it was a stroke of genius because that's the cartoony
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: thing about the Joker. It's a comic book here character,
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: but that they made it an actual illness. It's like, oh, no,
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: he's suffering when he's laughing. Oh like, oh so good.
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's such a good you know, it just
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: plays on us, right because the first time you're sort
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: of like, oh, it's just like a real life experience
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: where you might see somebody doing something that at first
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: puts you on guard and you're like, oh, that's weird.
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: I should be nervous, right, But then if you learn.
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: There's actually something behind it, like they can't help it.
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: It's a you know, it's a disorder, it's a it's
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: a thing that they have to deal with. Then you
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: suddenly start to feel.
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: Bad about judging and then and you know, your empathy
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: is sort of is sort of like rolled out for them.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, it's ramped up. It's like someone with Tourette's.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: You're like, oh, that's just a foul mouth person and
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: you're like, oh my god, he can't she can't can't
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: help it. Right, So it's a completely So they touched
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: on that such a brilliant moment in that in that
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: character development, and you know, speaking of villains, I think
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: when you were saying that, you know, oh he's an
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: anti hero, he's he's bad because he's just he's fascinating
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: to look at. That might have played in nineteen twenty,
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: he doesn't play now. We're just too advanced for that.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: So even a movie like Endgame Avengers Endgame, where Thanos,
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: who is, you know, the biggest bad guy at the time,
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: he really if you look at what he was trying
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: to do. And same thing in Black Panther, if I
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: remember the villain that they both had good intentions, they
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: were just going about it the wrong way. Yeah, And
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: thats just wanted to depopulate the entire universe because we're
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: running out of resources, and I saw it on my
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: plan and I think I want to help everybody else
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: I'm just going to kill half years. So this is
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: just a wrong way of going about it. But it
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: wasn't just like I'm bad to be bad and I
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: just want to destroy the world. That doesn't play as much.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: It's too one dimensional that, right, Yeah.
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: And Black Panther is a good example of that too.
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: And I don't remember all of the specifics, but I
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: do remember thinking that antagonist is such a it's almost
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: difficult to decide who you should you give your allegiance
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: to because he was a guy who was reacting to
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: the way he was brought up and he you know,
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: his background and the circumstances that he found.
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: Himself in, and he had intentions too.
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: That he was like, no, based on all of that,
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: based on what I know and what I've experienced, here's
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: what should happen, right, and you kind of can't. That's
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: what's so interesting about those characters is that you get
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: to see what motivates them and understand where they're coming from.
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: And then it's like it's even more compelling to us,
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: I think as viewers, because we're like, I don't want
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: to agree with him, but I kind of see where
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: he's coming from, you know.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: So, and that's what and that's what keeps you engaged
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: in the stories, like you're following. So why Black Panther
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: was not it was such a monster hit for many reasons,
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: but that if that villain wasn't right that it would
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: have been, it wouldn't have held the string the string
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: of the story as well as it did. And you know,
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: we're talking about introductions of or talking about main characters
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: introducing a character is something so important And I just
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: when I was reading that in your book, I was like, oh,
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: Indiana Jones raiders a lost arc. Ye, not not a
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: word spoken. I think maybe one or two words that
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: have nothing about his character, but that whole opening sequence,
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: all the way up until the Boulder is about to
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: crush him. Sorry spoiler alert all spoilers this episode. I
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: mean that means seriously, guys, I can't help it if
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: you have the lostar. But the entire time you find
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: out so much about who Indiana Jones is within the
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: first five to ten minutes of that movie without a
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: word spoken. It's really it's fascinating. Well, I mean Lonskast
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: then is such a brilliant brilliance.
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well yeah right in movies. You know. I think
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: that that's one thing that also is easy to overlook.
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: Again, coming back to the idea that there are so
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: many skill sets to remember when you're trying to write
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: a good screenplay. One of them is how do you
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: introduce your protagonist in a way that conveys, you know,
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: that gives us some information to go on. You want
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: it as quickly as possible, conveyde us, who is this
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: character and why should we be watching them, right, And
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: that's an easily overlooked thing because when you're juggling all
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: those skill sets, you're like, okay, I got to get
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: my protagonist in here somehow. And so, you know, very
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: often we see that he wakes up, he brushes his teeth,
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: he goes to work, and you know, sometimes that can
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: give us valuable information about the character.
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: But a lot of times that's just the first.
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: Thing you thought of, right, So thinking about like thinking
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: about what could be a more you know, a more
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: full introduction to your character, like a more you know,
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: interesting but also revealing introduction to them that can tell
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: us more about them just besides you know where they
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: sleep and how they brush their teeth. I think the
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: protagonist introduction is such a great place where And again
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: talking about like not beating the creativity out of your story.
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: By the time you get to writing your script, like
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: coming up with that introduction, you don't want to have
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: all these other things to think about, because you want
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: to be able to take the time to like brainstorm
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: what's the most interesting way for me to introduce that character.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: And when you were saying that, someone like, oh, they
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: go up and they brush their teeth and they wash
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: their face. First thing that popped in my mind is
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: Jack Nicholson as good as It Gets, which is an
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: amazing character introduction because again a word is said, but
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: by his entire opening morning sequence, you learn like ninety
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: percent of what you need to know about this character,
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: and the other ten percent are kind of revealed beautifully
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: throughout the rest of the script of his internal But
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: you you just know so quickly who this person is,
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: Tom Cruise and Rayman. In the first fifty ten minutes,
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: you know who this guy is so yactly.
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: Was it Bill Murray In What About Bob? Is that
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: the one where he follows the toothbrush?
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: I think it might be. I I haven't seen I
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: have seen What About Bob and Forever, but yeah, I
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: think it might be. I mean also, I mean even
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: him in Groundhog's Day, you kind of you know or
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: even know even better his introduction and Ghostbusters when he's
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: what he's doing the psychic tests, but the way he
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: does it and he's being pervy and he's you know all,
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: you just know everything you need to know about Beckman, like.
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, really quickly.
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: What made me think about What About Bob is because
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: we were talking about brushing the teeth, and I feel
• 48:06
  Speaker 4: like that's that's if I'm remembering right that movie, he's
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: like brushing his teeth, but he swallows the toothbrush, and
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: it's like, of course that works, because that's not the
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: traditional he wakes up, he brushes his teeth, he goes
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: to work. This is a guy who, like you know,
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: his default way of waking up and brushing his teeth
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: is weird and tells us kind of that he's not normal,
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: which was very important to know in that movie.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: And I think as a good a good kind of
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: way to we're an exercise that you should do as
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: a screenwriter is to look at some of your favorite
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: movies and see how they introduce those characters. Because as
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: we're talking like Tom Hanks and Turner and Hooch when
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: he was you know, didn't you know, doing everything, He's
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: cleaning his nose hairs and like, you know, his whole
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: house within the first five minutes, you know, this guy's
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: in neat freaking Then of course Ooch comes into the
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: and messes up his world. So it's all beautifully done.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: So if you start analyzing how these characters are introduced,
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: well that's a really helpful thing because I think, and
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: you know, beginning scripts and bad scripts, characters are just
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: like they just show up and there's some one dimensional
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: like oh, look he's got tattoos on and he had
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: a suit on, like no, don't and then you know,
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: or hey, Bob, how's that job? Like they say it,
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: they don't show it, and it's something that we really
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: it's something we need to fight against.
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it is.
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: It is. Well, it's an opportunity for you to be creative, right,
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: It's an opportunity for you to like give us a
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: scene that we're going to fall in love with both
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: we're going to fall in love with the movie, We're
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: going to fall in love with your writing. We're going
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: to fall in love with the character. So that protagonist introduction,
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: you know, no pressure, but it has some it's a
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: really good opportunity for you to do something cool and
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: interesting and compelling. So don't you know, don't waste it
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: because you only have a certain number of pages for
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: us to be engaged and to fall in love with
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: what you're doing.
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: So that's an even big one.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: Even Vin Diesel and Fast and Furious, when we're introduced
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: to him, we'll be right back after a word from
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: our sponsor, and now back to the show. I mean,
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: it's not super complex, it's not nearly as great as
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: Gample as the other ones, but all you need to
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: know about him is laid out in the first time
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: you see him, when he's racing, and how he races, Yeah,
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: what he does, it's very important to his character and
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: how he's introduced. So it's these kind of things that
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: screenwriters need to think about with him, because once you're
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: hooked with the main character, if you do your job right,
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: you're on the journey with them.
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know which one. I'll throw one more
• 50:37
  Speaker 4: at you. Which character introduction I love is Aaron Brockovic. Oh,
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: I know, because you immediately know who she is. I mean,
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: it's a scene that could very well be a cliche
• 50:50
  Speaker 4: because it's a job interview right where she's being asked
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: questions or she's answering questions, but it's an opportunity to
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: give us a bunch of information right up front about
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: who the cancharacter is, how she thinks, what her experience
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: in the world is. And then right after that, you know,
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: talk about like triggering our empathy. We see her side,
• 51:10
  Speaker 4: not sidewipe. What's it called t boned by another car?
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: You know she's already like not you know, not great financially,
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: she's looking for a job, she's struggling, and then this happens,
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: and you know who doesn't have empathy for her after that?
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, she's the underdog. There's there's no She's definitely
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: the underdog. And you're like, but she's a fighter, and like, hey,
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: I want underdog. I'm a fighter. I'm gonna go with
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: her on this year. No, right, that's and that's how
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: you go. Now. In your book, you also talk about
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: a story chart.
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: What is a story Well, I have a couple of
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: different story charts in in the book, and you.
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: Know, they're really just like tools.
• 51:43
  Speaker 4: And exercises that I put together, not just when I
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: was writing the book, but with writers that I work
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: with to sort of try to help people get clear
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: on the story they're telling, right, Because I.
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: Think one of the.
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: One of the instincts that newer writers have sometimes like
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: I have an idea, Now I'm just going to sit
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: down and write the whole thing, and it's like there
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: are a lot of steps that could help you get
• 52:07
  Speaker 4: a grasp on what it is you're trying to write,
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: because not knowing what you're trying to write, I think
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: is a very quick way to get stuck and get
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: writer's block and to abandon that project and never finish
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: that screenplay. So trying to help writers not get to
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: that point, I want them to understand what they're trying
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: to write and sort of develop their ideas in baby
• 52:26
  Speaker 4: steps so that it doesn't feel hard, it doesn't feel overwhelming,
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: and they get to the screenplay and can actually write
• 52:32
  Speaker 4: the whole thing. So the story chart that I have
• 52:35
  Speaker 4: in the book is it's basically just taking kind of
• 52:38
  Speaker 4: the broad strokes of a story. It's almost like the
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: once upon a time, then this happened, Then this happened
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: kind of template for a story, right, It's like that
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: traditional sort of story that we all know and understand.
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: It's sort of a version of that, just taking the
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: broad strokes of a feature film, like here's kind of
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: what happens in all the big sections, and laying out
• 53:01
  Speaker 4: in a chart so that you can use it as
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: prompt to kind of figure out, Okay, so in my story,
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: in this broad stroke section, this is where we need
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: the character and understand, you know, kind of where they
• 53:10
  Speaker 4: are in life right now, so you can then brainstorm
• 53:13
  Speaker 4: and fill that in for your story and kind of
• 53:16
  Speaker 4: again it's a baby step. It's a way to kind
• 53:18
  Speaker 4: of like start to get clear on what needs to
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: happen in each section of your story.
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: And what's a springboard? I heard, I saw that. I
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: love to hear. What that is?
• 53:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's we were talking about the eight sequences, right,
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: So I teach, you know, getting through a first draft
• 53:36
  Speaker 4: using springboards and sequences.
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: It's one of the methods that I used to outline.
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: Basically a way to figure out what happens in each
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: part of your story. So the way I teach it
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: is that you know, a screenplay can be broken up
• 53:50
  Speaker 4: into eight sequences, and in between each sequence is a springboard,
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: so it's.
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: A plot point.
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: A lot of a lot of the springboards that you'll
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: find are actually those major blot turning points, right, So
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: the inciting incident is a springboard, the break into act
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: two is a springboard, the midpoint is a springboard, the
• 54:06
  Speaker 4: break into three, So those kind of turning points are
• 54:10
  Speaker 4: springboards for the next section of the script. So what
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: happens at that blot point sends us in a particular
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: direction that the next section of script plays out, and
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: that's that's basically it does that make sense?
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: That makes sense now? And I'm going to ask you
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: a few questions, ask all of my guests, Oh, sure,
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: what advice would you give a screenwriter trying to break
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: into the business today?
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: Interesting, Well, there's so much advice to be given, But
• 54:40
  Speaker 4: I guess it depends on who.
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: I'm talking to in terms of where are they in
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: the journey.
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: But if they have written those screenplays that they're really
• 54:48
  Speaker 4: proud of and are getting good feedback and they just
• 54:50
  Speaker 4: feel like they need to know some piece of information
• 54:54
  Speaker 4: before they can like make that big break, right, I
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: think my best advice is to rely on one method.
• 55:01
  Speaker 4: I always tell writers to have a lot of irons
• 55:04
  Speaker 4: in the fire to you know, take a lot of
• 55:08
  Speaker 4: different opportunities that come to them because you just you
• 55:11
  Speaker 4: don't know which one is going to be the thing
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: that sort of breaks you in. And more often than not,
• 55:19
  Speaker 4: I think it's a snowball effect. It's like you get
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: a yes here, and then you can leverage that to
• 55:23
  Speaker 4: getting into this program, and then being in that program
• 55:26
  Speaker 4: allows you to meet, you know, certain executives and you
• 55:29
  Speaker 4: can kind of like use those relationships to get your
• 55:32
  Speaker 4: foot in.
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: The door in a writer's room or in you know,
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: something else. So I think it's a snowball effect.
• 55:37
  Speaker 4: So you should say yes to things and sort of
• 55:40
  Speaker 4: have as many irons in the fire as you can,
• 55:42
  Speaker 4: because cumulatively, that's how you break in.
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: It's not a lottery ticket.
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: It's not one opportunity that's going to suddenly make your career.
• 55:49
  Speaker 4: And now you're in and you're never going to stop working,
• 55:52
  Speaker 4: and you.
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: Know and all that stuff.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: All the money just comes by trucks. I think they
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: bring the money and they just pile the money just
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: calls into the front.
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I've heard. I mean, I'm waiting, but.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: I've been waiting for quite some years, a few years,
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: a few decades at this point, I've been waiting for it. Yeah, Now,
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn,
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: whether in the film industry or in life?
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: Deep So many questions wouldn't have been funny.
• 56:18
  Speaker 4: If I had just recycled everything that I said last
• 56:20
  Speaker 4: time I was.
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: I it's been such a long time, I would have
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: But that's a great answer.
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, I have no idea what I said before, Well,
• 56:30
  Speaker 4: so this is I don't know if this is going
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: to make sense. But I do think the lesson that
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: probably took me the longest to learn and has so
• 56:36
  Speaker 4: many different applications is know your audience, right, And I
• 56:40
  Speaker 4: think that that's true when you're writing a script, you
• 56:42
  Speaker 4: kind of have to have a sense of like who
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: is this for?
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: Who is the audience for this? Who would go see
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: this movie?
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: And not because you're writing to the market or because
• 56:50
  Speaker 4: you're pandering or catering just to one particular sensibility or something,
• 56:55
  Speaker 4: but you do have to know that you're the thing
• 56:57
  Speaker 4: that you're writing is meant to be seen, and so
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: there is as an audience who should.
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: Want to see this, right.
• 57:04
  Speaker 4: So I think knowing your audience comes in in that sense.
• 57:07
  Speaker 4: But then also I think it applies to the sort
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: of working collaborations that you're going to have to have.
• 57:14
  Speaker 4: As you know, in any part of the filmmaking process,
• 57:19
  Speaker 4: you know you can speak differently to a fellow writer
• 57:22
  Speaker 4: than you can to a director or your producer or
• 57:26
  Speaker 4: you know, whoever it is that you have to kind
• 57:29
  Speaker 4: of do business with. And knowing the difference between a
• 57:33
  Speaker 4: newer producer who doesn't really know what they're doing yet,
• 57:37
  Speaker 4: versus a very seasoned producer who you know you can
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: speak within a different way. I think knowing your audience
• 57:43
  Speaker 4: is just so important in every regard.
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, you start talking about big words and start throwing
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: around screenwriting jargon to a young producer who doesn't know
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: what they're doing, and if they have an ego problem,
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: that's when fights start busting out or like, these are
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: things that they don't talk about. This is that stuff
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: that it's taught at school. So knowing who you're talking
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: to and knowing your audience is extremely important. Yeah, great answer,
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: Great answer. Now, three screenplays that every screenwriter should read.
• 58:12
  Speaker 4: Okay, well, I think my default answer would be, choose
• 58:18
  Speaker 4: the three screenplays that are most like things that you
• 58:21
  Speaker 4: want to write, right, that are sort of like if
• 58:25
  Speaker 4: you could choose screen any screenplay to have written. Choose
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: those screenplays to study, because I think that that's probably
• 58:32
  Speaker 4: going to help you the most, right because it'll speak
• 58:35
  Speaker 4: directly to kind of like what you love about those stories.
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: But if you're stuck and you're looking for suggestions.
• 58:41
  Speaker 4: I think choose a you know, I'll use this term loosely,
• 58:46
  Speaker 4: but choose a classic, choose something pre nineteen eighty to read,
• 58:50
  Speaker 4: just to kind of like see how stories were put
• 58:53
  Speaker 4: together in.
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: An earlier time, in an earlier era, and then choose
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: something that's been a you.
• 59:00
  Speaker 4: Know, say an Oscar winner for Best Screenplay in the
• 59:03
  Speaker 4: last twenty years or something, and then choose something off
• 59:07
  Speaker 4: of the Blacklist to read to get a sense of like,
• 59:12
  Speaker 4: what are sort of current trends in screenwriting style? How
• 59:17
  Speaker 4: are people doing things differently now than they were you know,
• 59:20
  Speaker 4: forty years ago and twenty years ago.
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: Great advice, that's a great ans. I've never had that
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: answer before in the show. Yea good good answer to
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: that question.
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: Something new.
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: And finally, your three favorite films of all time?
• 59:31
  Speaker 4: Oh gosh, I'm sure that I answered this one before
• 59:33
  Speaker 4: and probably regretted my answer immediately, because as soon as
• 59:37
  Speaker 4: I say in my favorites, I'm like, no, but what.
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: About this one?
• 59:40
  Speaker 4: So classics that I just go back to again and again,
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: And I love them because of the effect they have
• 59:46
  Speaker 4: on me, but also because they're so interesting and have
• 59:50
  Speaker 4: offered so much to think about and study in terms
• 59:52
  Speaker 4: of screenwriting.
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: Silence of the Lambs, for sure.
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back for a word from our sponsor,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 4: What other one do? I always go back to, Oh,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 4: you know what I love about a Boy? I think
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 4: that that's such an interesting screenplay and movie, and it
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 4: does such a good job of you know, we're talking
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: about sort of like whose story is it and kind
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 4: of balancing multiple characters.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: That's a good one to study if you.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 4: Are in that predicament of trying to have kind of
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 4: a two hander.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: And then let's see third all time favorite, you know,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: a recent favorite is Bridesmaids.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: I think that that movie does so much right and
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 4: took me so much by surprise in terms of like
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: how well, how well put together?
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: That story is very cool.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: And where can people pick up your book, the screenplay
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: outline work.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: You can get it on Amazon.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 4: It's only in paperback at the moment, so it's a
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 4: physical book that you get and you get to write
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 4: in and do the exercises and hopefully develop your screenplay
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: idea by the time you're finished with it.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: So yeah, Amazon's the place to see it.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: Naomi, thank you so much for coming back on the show,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: and welcome back anytime. I appreciate the good work you're
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: doing to help some writers out there, you know, battle
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: the problems of getting their first screenplay out there. So
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: I appreciate you, my dear, thank you so.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 3: Much, thank you, thanks for having me again.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: I want to thank Naomi so much for coming on
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: the show and dropping her knowledge bombs on the tribe.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Know me. If you want to
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: get linked to anything we spoke about it in this episode,
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: including how to get her new book, the Screenplay Outline Workbook,
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: head over to the show notes at any film aussole
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: dot com forward slash seven sixty three, and if you
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: have it already, please head over to Filmmaking podcast dot com,
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: so much for listening. Guys, as always, keep that hustle going,
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: keep that dream alive, Stay safe out there, and I'll
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: talk to you soon.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast at
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: in DFILM Hustle dot com. That's I N D I
• 1:02:02
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• 1:02:05
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