Latest / Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast / All About Pointe For Training Dancers

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All About Pointe For Training Dancers · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is Making the Impact, a dance competition podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: One of the rights of passage for dancers of a certain age is dancing on point.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: But is point right for every dancer?
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Today on Making the Impact, we're joined by two professional ballet dancers and educators who are here to school us on the importance of proper training to point, trusting your teacher, and trusting the process that leads to this achievement.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_07: Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's episode of Making the Impact.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_07: I am your host, Courtney Ortiz, and I'm here with my co-host, Leslie Mueller.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Dun-da-da! Hello.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: It is time for this week's episode of Making the Impact.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: And first of all, I can't believe it's already like May, like tomorrow.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Crazy.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like truly flying by.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, every year.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: It just, this is such a it's so quick, but it's so long.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: While we're in it, it's long.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: When you're looking back at it, it was quick.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: So here we are.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_07: Here we are.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_07: We're nearing the end of Making the Impact season seven, especially since we are doing bi-weekly episodes this season.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_07: So we only have a few more brand new recordings to bring to you, but I hope you all have been enjoying our episodes this year.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_07: And I know I have because we've had some really great chats and some awesome guests that have joined us on season seven.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_07: And this week is another great episode.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we've got two brand new podcast guests from a world that we don't get to talk about as often as we probably could or should.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: We're in the ballet world, more specifically, point.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and our guests today are masters in their field, I would say.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, they work for companies that you have heard of, that you have seen perform, and we're so excited to learn from them today.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_07: Yes, I cannot wait.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_07: But before we jump into our episode, since we are in the heat of the season, we have some Making the Impact Award winners to share with you.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_07: I'm sure you've heard us talk about this award that is sponsored by Impact Dance Adjudicators and Making the Impact podcast.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_07: And these awards are distributed at IDA affiliated competitions that have at least one IDA judge on the judging panel.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_07: And your IDA judge or judges will select one dance from the entire weekend to be crowned with the Making the Impact Judge's Choice Award winner.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_07: And by winning this award, you not only receive a shout-out at the event and a beautiful plaque that you can display at your studio for forever, but you also get a live shout out on the podcast.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_07: So let's hear some of our recent winners.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: From Just Dance Invitationals event in Bozeman, Montana.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Congratulations to Soul Dance Company and Academy from Great Falls, Montana for their small group, Genius of Love.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_07: From Gems Dance Competitions event in Duluth, Minnesota, congrats to Stacy's Studio of Dance Education from Duluth, Minnesota, for their large group, Somebody to Love.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: From Oro Dance Competitions event in St.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: Louis, Missouri, congrats to Slay Dance Center from Bonterra, Missouri for their duo trio, The Chain.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_07: And from DECA Dance Competitions event in Providence, Rhode Island, congrats to Summit Dance Center from New Bedford, Massachusetts, for their small group, Where I Wanna Be.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: All right, we look forward to sharing more Making the Impact Awards as our season continues.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: And as always, we'd love to tell you about our sponsors today.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_06: Dance educators, leaders, and innovators, this one's for you.
• 3:51
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• 3:54
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• 4:09
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• 4:18
  SPEAKER_06: Plus, an epic expo hall packed with the latest in costumes, tech and tools to elevate your studio.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_06: Whether you're looking to strengthen your teaching, build your business, or spark fresh inspiration.
• 4:29
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• 4:32
  SPEAKER_06: Coming to you this summer 2026, mark your calendars for August 13th through 16th in New York City.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_06: And we have an exclusive promo code at making the impact for$100 off your registration.
• 4:45
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• 4:49
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• 4:58
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• 5:10
  SPEAKER_07: Because we're talking about point for training in dancers.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_07: Now, every single dancer who goes through ballet wants to make it to the point.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_07: See what I did there?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_07: To the point in their career where they get to strap on those point shoes and see what it's like to feel like a professional ballet dancer.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_07: And I think that point is always a really great achievement for dancers, but it takes a lot of training, a lot of dedication, a lot of time to get there in our ballet training.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_07: And it is not something that should be rushed.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_07: Um there is a pro there is a process and your ballet teachers don't know about that process.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_07: But we wanted to dive a little bit deeper into this conversation today with two brand new guests and both professional ballet dancers with well-known companies that you all have heard about and maybe have even seen performed live in person.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_07: I'm very excited to welcome our very first guest who was a principal ballet dancer with the New York City Ballet for many years.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_07: She's gonna tell you all about her, and she is also she has a really big following on her YouTube channel, over 350,000 subscribers.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_07: So go check that out as well.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_07: I'm very thrilled to welcome Catherine Morgan to our podcast.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_07: Welcome, Catherine.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's an honor to be here.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_07: Yes, thanks for squeezing us in.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_07: I know you're so busy killing the game, and I'm sure you have so much to share on this topic.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: I like how long do we have?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: Actually.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: Just to give people a brief little synopsis, I'm a former soloist with New York City Ballet and Miami City Ballet.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: I have um had my ups and downs throughout my career, and I was kind of the baby ballerina there at New York City Ballet.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: Had a dream career in five years, was promoted to soloist at 21, and then fell off a cliff at 22 with an autoimmune condition and ended up leaving the company, very long short story short, and kind of battled through that process while getting back to dancing and joined Miami City Ballet for a year.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: And since then, I have freelanced, I have my YouTube channel.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm very outspoken on body image and ballet and dancer mental health, and just kind of have a lot of fingers and a lot of pies.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: So, and point is actually something that I'm very passionate about, passionate about teaching.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think it should be taught a very specific way.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I have a lot of thoughts on that.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm excited to be here to talk about that.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_07: Awesome.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I can't wait to learn from you because I have to admit, I'm a dancer and I do all styles, but point is not one of them.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: So it's uh it's it's fine.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's its own beast.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's its own beast.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think you're doing fine without it, Courtney.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: Don't worry.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, thank you.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I mean, I dabbled in it and I tried my hardest.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_07: And then it was like a requirement in college.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_07: You're like, you gotta do it.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_07: And I was like, really?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_07: But I have the flattest feet ever.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_07: So I sadly quit point.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_07: And I do regret that, everybody listening.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_07: I regret not keeping up with my point, and maybe we'll talk about that later.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_07: But uh, Catherine, I can't wait to learn from you today on this chat.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_07: Thank you so much for being here.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_07: Of course.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_07: Our next special guest is joining us straight out of the rehearsal room, literally, because they are dancing currently with the Pittsburgh Ballet Theater.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_07: And I can't wait to get to know them even more.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_07: I am very excited to welcome Tommy Lynn to the podcast.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_07: Welcome, Tommy.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, everyone.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really excited to talk to you all today.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yay!
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_07: And your very first podcast appearance.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_07: Congratulations.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_07: Thank you.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_07: I know it's tough to squeeze this in because you're in rehearsal right now.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_07: So, like, thank you for sharing uh your time with us on your lunch break.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: No problem at all.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm happy to do so.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_07: Well, if you could share a little bit more about you, where you grew up, how you got into ballet, and how you are now dancing with Pittsburgh Ballet.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, of course.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I am a principal dancer here at PBT.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up actually in the competition world.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I know a lot about this side of things.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I ended up choosing to go the ballet route.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I trained here in Pittsburgh, born and raised, and then did a summer at SAB, did a summer at Miami, ended up staying there for a year for the um Miami's, you know, graduate program.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I got hired here as soon as I turned 18 in Pittsburgh.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then I ended up getting promoted to soloist days before COVID shut us down.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I was 19 years old.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I got promoted to soloist, but it was a total like womp womp.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: You're soloist, but you're not gonna get to do anything for, you know.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but of course, a dream.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then most recently promoted to principal uh at the age of 22.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I was recently on the cover of Point magazine, which is really exciting.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_07: Yes, you were so cool.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_07: Which makes you even more perfect for this point discussion because the Point magazine.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_07: Yes.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_07: Yes.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_07: Awesome.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_07: Well, congratulations on all your success so far in your dance career.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_07: And uh, I love the tie-in of you being a competitive dancer.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_07: I think this will be really eye-opening to hear for a lot of the dancers who are currently there and growing up and maybe have dreams of becoming a professional ballerina or ballet dancer one day, that they can uh hear your story and your journey.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_07: So thank you for being here and uh let's jump in.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, let's dive right on in.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks y'all for being here.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I too am very excited to learn more.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: We have so much to cover today.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd like to get started by asking both of you, just for your personal experience, when did you start point?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: And do you feel like that was the right time for you to start point, you personally?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: I started point when I was 11.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I had been, I mean, I I'm a born and bred dancer wanting to do nothing else.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I started ballet at three, really started serious dancing at maybe seven.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: So by the time I went on point at 11, I was ready.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: I had great training, great teachers at Mobile Ballet in Mobile, Alabama.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: And um yeah, I I I really think they did a great job with us.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what was very interesting, and this is something we can talk about, isn't our entire class didn't go on point.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's a common misconception where it's like, okay, everybody, let's just get the shoes and go.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: And they did a very good job of evaluating like who was ready, who wasn't, um, which is a tricky, tricky thing when you're 10, 11, 12.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I went on point at 11 and I wore throwback rapetos.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you've ever heard of that rapetos.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I went you have they were like the pinkest ones, like bubblegum Barbie point shoe pink, and that's what I went on point with.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I was happy about that.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I really do feel like I was ready to go.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And what about you, Tommy?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I went on point as well when I was about 11 years old.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: My whole class went on point.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: I remember we were like a really strong group, um, small class, but I still remember that day.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we had a digital camera and we all got printouts of us like posing with our point shoes, which is really sweet.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: I went on point first with Tiffany, the um capizio point shoe that they no longer make.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually stuck with that shoe for a long time.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: I loved that point shoe, but I believe it was the Tiffany, unless it eventually what they kind of evolved into a Tiffany was my first shoe, but I know it was a Capezio.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I've been a Capezio girl since I was like born.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: My first little ballet shoes are capizios with like the flowers on them.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I definitely felt like I was ready.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was so cute.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I definitely felt like I was ready for point when I went on point, but my comp competition dance background, I feel like made me really strong.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: I was definitely one of the stronger girls in the class.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, my leg muscles were very developed and I definitely felt secure.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: I remember feeling like when I was up on point, that in those early days that I felt like I could be there.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um a lot of girls were more uncomfortable or struggling with the sickle and stuff like that.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think that that almost cross-training that competitive dance does um was really useful to me.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's really nice.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's nice to hear.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: I work like the farthest away from point shoes when I when I came on board.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I want there's you know, point shoes, as we can probably talk about, are very complicated.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: They have to be exactly right for you.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: They can be really detrimental if they're not.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I'm gonna stay over here in jazz shoe, tap shoe, ballet shoeland.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we have another point shoe person.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Ah.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, I'm very fully aware of the Tiffany.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And my first point shoes were the Pavlova, which was another very bright bubblegum pink, look, looked very much like the Rapettos, tiny little brick-sized, like little size four shoes, just running around with no, you know, those.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: I had I had no business being on point.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: I was on at 10 years old.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: Also, we should we should point out to people who don't know, because you work for Capezio, right?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like, so the common misconception about point shoes is like, oh, it's steel or it's wood, and you're like standing on blocks.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's paper mache covered in satin.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's essentially what a point shoe is.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: That just popped into my head while we were talking about it.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's a lot of um, and there's different parts to the point shoe.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: And when you get fitted, you know, you have to really go to someone who's knowledgeable about all the different brands because what what brand works for Catherine's not going to work for Tommy, most likely, or what style.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there's there's a lot of things that go into it.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: So this is your PSA to do not buy a point shoe on Amazon or TMO or Shian.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like go to your local store.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't have one, there's people across the nation who do virtual point shoe fittings.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_05: Yep.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that that can you can get consults and everything.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: So you got to do it right because as we will discuss, um, there's a lot of things that can go wrong if you don't do it right.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I think that's like the hardest part when you're first getting on point is what shoe works for me.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_07: And then it's just like trial and error.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_07: And then parents are getting so upset because they're like, well, I just paid$60 for this shoe.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_07: What do you mean it doesn't work?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_07: $60.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_07: What do you mean$60?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_07: I don't know how much do they cost?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: How much are they?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, don't do point.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: So tell me, tell me what if you're if you don't mind telling us what shoe do you wear now?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: And do you get provided shoes from your company?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I do get provided shoes by PBT.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: That is like a godsend, of course.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as a principal, I go through like one to two pairs a week, probably sometimes two to three.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: But crazy.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I wear anchor maker by freed, and they're custom to me.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: So cut down sides, three-quarters, all of the specs that are, you know, specific to my foot.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: We have the freed uh point shoe fitter come to PBT once a year and get everyone refit.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure that the shoes that you get in are perfectly fit to your feet, which I think is really, really useful to help prevent injury and just like a check.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I tried these on this day.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe my foot was swollen, but once the point shoe fitter left, I'm like swimming in them.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Let's check again.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Or like your feet change a lot over time.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: After the summer, I feel like my feet like widen and spread, and yeah, my point shoes feel tighter.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of factors that go into that.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I'm really happy in my shoes right now.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: And Anchor Maker is retiring.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how that goes.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: As soon as I've found, you know, my match, then you have to kind of start looking for another one.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I have like 200 on stock, so I'm good for a while.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Except for a little while.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's really good.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_07: Was that the same experience for you, Catherine, while you were dancing?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_07: Were you getting custom shoes from all the companies?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: When you're at SAB for the year, you get that we had the point shoe room at the school.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: I don't again, I was there 20 years ago now at this point.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know if this is the same.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: But we would get the company rejects because with New York City Ballet, they have such a tight relationship with Freed.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: We at the time, as a company member, would get maybe 30 pair a month and barely made it.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: Barely.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's like Tommy said, like you're like gluing the heck out of them.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like, please last.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: And but then, you know, if there was a backpile, you could have your reject shoes.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: So this one was weird because they're all handmade.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: At least the freeds are.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so some might come out a little wonky or lopsided.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so the students got the rejects and could buy them, I think, for 20 bucks each, which was nothing.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: And then when we were in the company, we were provided, we did the trials and you could custom.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: At the time, I believe Core and Soloist had to wear freed.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think principals got a choice.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I would say 95% of City Ballet wears freed and still does.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I just remember like you can tweak it within an inch of its life, that shoe, to really custom fit to your foot, which is so nice.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because everybody's everybody's feet are different, everybody's needs are different.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's there's so many factors that go into it, which but let's let's back up a little bit.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think we've like now gotten into shoes before we've gotten into like what what are your feet even need to be able to do by the time you get a shoe.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: So in Catherine, in your experience, since you're doing a lot of teaching online and and other places, I assume, what do you think physically, are you doing any sort of um testing prior to putting kids on point that they they need to be able to, you know, achieve certain milestones before you're gonna do that?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or what's your process like?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, 100%.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: For the last three or four years, I've had I've been teaching in at the Dance Academy in Southern California in Orange County, and I've put multiple classes on point over the years, and these dancers are anywhere from like they're around the age of 9, 10, 11.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: And for six months prior, for what I what I do, what I require is we do six months of pre-point.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: So we are doing Theraband, we are doing slow-legged elevates.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: And if you try and get a 10-year-old to do a slow-legged elevated releve, they're like looking at you like you've taken away their birthday.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's rough.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's not, it is not the easiest process.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: So we do, I like literally killed their calves, tondus, releves, jumping for six months.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: And once I know that they have that solid releve, I'm seeing the calf muscles develop.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: We're not rolling to the outside of our pinky toe.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's a big one for me, because with little kids, you know, their bones and their joints are still developing, and so they will have a tendency to be loosey-goosey and go to the outside pinky toe.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: So it's this whole process and system so that once, you know, like half the year has gone by, they're pretty much ready and they all go right up.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: But it is a lot of work, it is a rite of passage for any dancer, it is something you have to really put your brain into.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: We all had to and work for it.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: You can't just decide one day you want to go on point.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: So there are specific things like that that I look for.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: Calf strength is essential.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: I cannot emphasize like demi-point releves and tondus and degajes and all your normal bar work in flat shoes.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: That is what's gonna set you up the best for point work.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: So that has to be in place before I even consider putting them in a shoe.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_07: I love it.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_07: What you said about the demi-point and the releve and even like in pre-point, yeah, and the understanding of like how to articulate your ankle properly.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_07: Because I feel like that I see dancers on flat relevant to their pinky sickling in their releve, but then they're like, But I but I do point at my studio.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_07: And I'm like, but you're in flat, you're not even doing a releve properly.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_07: So why are we why have we put them on point when I can tell on flat that it's not the technique isn't there just yet and needs to be a little bit more perfected before we strap on an advanced level shoe that really needs proper alignment and strength because you're supporting your entire body on the top of your foot.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like exactly.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it like we said earlier, they're paper mache.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: You're not standing on much support at all.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, with these kids, I like them to have at least two, maybe even three or four solid years in ballet training before we even consider point.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a okay, well, I've done ballet for a year, let me throw on a point shoe.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, for me, they have to have a solid, solid technique foundation to even go on point, even though I'm not teaching there anymore.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: That is something I will continue to.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Require no matter who I'm teaching.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and Tommy, in your experience, like so we we say these words, and our our podcast listeners know how Courtney and I feel about this.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: When we say a solid year of ballet training, what does that mean to both of you?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Tommy, I would love to hear from you first.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I think that means it needs to be a full focused technique class as far as ballet goes.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: You're in tights in a leotard and your hair's in a bun.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's not basically that boring class you have to get through to get to your jazz and your contemporary and you know everything else you want to do at a competition studio.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: I have been there.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: When I started, ballet was like my least favorite form of dance.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I would hide and refuse to put on tights because I have a really mean ballet teacher.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: But then I found a ballet teacher that I loved and I grew to like really love the discipline of ballet class.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then I ended up signing up for more supplemental.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I really don't believe that the one or two classes you get a week at a competition studio is enough.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: If you're wanting to be on point and do well on point, not risk getting injured, it's not something you can just strap the boots on for the center of your competition ballet, you know, class.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think it needs to be a really focused environment because the truth is, is point doesn't fix technique.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: It really just magnifies the technical problems that you may be having.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't fix those technical problems.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it can make the health of a dancer, especially when they're developing, so young, you know, like you said, their joints, their bones aren't fully developed.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: And if you put them on point too soon, you could risk the rest of their dance career, whatever avenue they want to go, they could have long-term problems from that.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's really important that you're in a very focused and controlled environment for that.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've seen a lot of, I also teach around the Pittsburgh area and I've seen a lot of students who I'm like, I don't know if you should be in point shoes, but it's that calf control, like Catherine said.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: I still do the pre-point work every day because I want to have a long and strong and healthy career.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm in point shoes for seven hours a day.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: So if I'm not, you know, supplementing my calves and also the recovery side of that as well, then I also risk that injury.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm, you know, fully developed and a professional dancer.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: So imagine for these young girls trying to get on point, how important that is.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so glad you said that about the disciplined class, because that is also something that is so important.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, that I have stressed to them is day one, I sit down with them with the shoes.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: We don't put them on.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: And every year I held them up and I said, This is not a toy.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: This is not playtime.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: These are dangerous.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you are in a disciplined class, you know, we as the teachers also have to be able to trust them that when I turn my back looking at another student, you're not hanging on the bar trying to do pirouettes and are gonna break your ankle, and then we have a big problem.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: So it's also that I'm so glad you said that, that like focused, disciplined class that you have been in for several years, like learning how to motivate yourself, follow directions, and so that we as the teachers can trust you to put you in those shoes.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, the trust aspect is huge.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how many times, even this is like younger kids too, but even some of the kids who'd be that age to start point, you turn your back and you look over and they're just over here doing a cartwheel.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: They're over here like having no sexual awareness and trying to do a fouette, and you're like, we haven't even gotten to single pirouette yet.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a trust aspect.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to hear, so one class a week, two classes a week, three classes a week.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: If it's a really focused class, can we cut it down to two or we talk?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: We need how much are we talking?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'd say at least two or three times a week.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: Ballet, you're talking about ballet.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: Ballet, yeah.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: Ballet and leading towards point.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'd say two to three, because you know they're young.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I'd say two to three.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree, but I would say the pre-point class should be, you know, an extension of that.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that you're gonna get a full technique class and pre-point all in one.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the way I've seen it structured is like a ballet class and then 30 minutes of pre-point, yeah, yeah, 45, whatever, you know, it may take, but I definitely think they should be separate focused classes.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_07: And same question in the sense of once we've now put the shoes on, is it still a separate class that is focused towards point only?
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_07: Or is are the dancers doing the ballet class in their point shoes up to a point?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_07: What is the structure look like for a studio?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_07: Or this could be helpful for studios to know, oh, I never thought to structure my classes like this.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_07: Oh, maybe I should do that if I'm introducing point.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_07: Should it be bar on flat and then we have a point class after?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_07: How do how is that looking?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think for me it's a separate class.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they still need to be doing ballet technique as they have been.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: Just like Tommy said, it's not gonna like point is gonna highlight what's wrong.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's like you've got you've gotta still have your basics, you've gotta still have your ABCs, you still have to be doing ballet.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then point class should either be a separate class where you know you warm them up and then we put the point shoes on.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because for me, they also don't leave the bar for at least two or three or four months, or you do it at the end.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like we did our jumps, we did our things, great, we're warm, put the shoes on, go back to the bar, which is also very difficult for children, which is why it's almost better to have it as a separate class, because to re-harness the focus after we're jumping across the room is very difficult.
• 27:53
  unknown: Yeah.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say have it be a separate class if you want the most success.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_07: Makes sense.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I totally agree with Catherine.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think that was perfectly put.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: I remember for a while we were doing the structure of like the last 15 minutes when we first start, you put on your point shoes because you want to go low and slow, kind of.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I remember and I taught point over the summer in pre-point that like reining it back in after a grand allegro is like, yeah, this is impossible.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I do think the separate class structure is great.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: And when I was teaching the young girls who had just started point this summer, what some of them did if they weren't ready for more is they would do the first two to three combinations on point.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: They would take them off and they would continue to take point class on flat because maybe they needed a little bit more pre-point, but it wasn't enough to hold them back from getting their point shoes, but they still need to build a little bit more strength for the more complicated combinations, maybe.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_07: Well, I think it's so important, like we've already mentioned, the trust of the teacher.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_07: You know, I think a lot of parents want to get their kids on point as soon as possible, or we feel like that there's a timeline in age.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_07: And I do think age comes into play a little bit.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_07: I'm I'm curious to hear how y'all feel about dancers who are like seven and eight on point that sometimes we see, which Catherine shaking her head no.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_07: And big X and a no.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_07: Um, you know, I think age is is is there as like a timeline period of when this could start happening happening, but it sounds like at the end of the day, it really comes down to strength and technique and readiness in how how much work you've put in to be ready.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_07: It might not happen until you're 12.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_07: It might not happen until you're 13, it might not happen until you're 14 because of when you started dance, how much time you've put into it, and you have to make sure your body is ready and able to handle this new layer of training that you're adding to your ballet classes.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it there's no rush because with point work, especially, it is so hard to go back and fix bad habits.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: If you've developed it wrong, it it's like it's almost impossible.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so I feel like with some of these parents or even children who are like, my kid is eight, I want to go on point, my kid is nine.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, why rush it?
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: I had a partner once say to me, Andrew Vaillette, who's a former principal with City Ballet, he would say things like, it takes longer to rush.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you're rushing the process that young, it's just gonna set you up for failure later.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's just it's not actually gonna benefit you in any way.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: There is so much time, and it's it's better to go look long and slow on this process.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_07: Completely agree.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think like one of the biggest mistakes is pushing those flexible dancers to get onto point too early just because they have the beautiful feet or whatever.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think that why I feel the parents maybe push their kids and want them to be on point sooner is because that's that next tier is oh, look at what my daughter can do, and she can do it on point.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: But it's about what you can do once you're on point.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, just like you said, this point shoe is not a toy.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's also not a costume.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not something that you should just put on to, you know, make people see, oh, she has point shoes on and she's doing this solo.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's about what they can do when they're out there on point.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think more often than not, the dances with those beautiful legs and feet and extension can have more strength problems because if you are that hypermobile, you need to do three times the amount of strength and conditioning, in my opinion.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yep to be able to support those extreme lines that you have, which are beautiful, but don't put your kid on point too soon and risk you know ruining that.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: They could then have really weak uh arches or just the you know, tendons and ligaments aren't developing right because they're pushed to an extreme too soon and supporting all their body weight.
• 32:13
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• 33:35
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• 33:48
  SPEAKER_07: We see this so often in competitive dance with all sides of it now, with the added level of contortion and gymnastics that are being introduced.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_07: Now we have these really hypermobile dancers who are extra bendy but are lacking that strength.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_07: And like you said, then add a point shoot to the mix.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_07: And it's just like, okay, we gotta we gotta go back to the basics that Catherine was just talking about that are so important.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_07: We can't forget those basics, but because they feel like they've checked a box, oh, I've got my shoes, I've made it to point basics.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_07: I don't need them anymore.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_07: Who needs that?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_07: I have a beautiful line, I can get up onto my box, look at this picture that I made.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_07: But when you like watch them as a dancer trying to execute the variation or the sequence, there's a lot of there's a lot of things that we got to continue to work on.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_07: There's a lot of issues in the technique and the execution of that.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_07: It's not just about the picture all the time.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, just like we always talk about.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's about the transition.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like a lot of people can do in really nice arabesque, but how did you get out of it?
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: How'd you get into it?
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, like Courtney said, when we Courtney and I judge competitions, yes, we do see point, but it's kind of infrequent.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the reason like I sit back and every time I see a person with point shoes come out, I tense up just a little bit because I don't know what's about to happen.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if this is early or late or you're, you know, ready to go, or I'm gonna be worried the whole time.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's always really refreshing when I see somebody have the technique to back up the next step, which is being on point.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: But more to more often than not, I'm just kind of like, what are what are we doing?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because not everybody needs to be on point.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that's nothing to be ashamed of, and that's nothing to say that you're not gonna be successful in whatever journey you want to pursue with dance.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, there are some ankles that just are not gonna be able to have that flexion and extension, or they have too much.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: And if you are hypermobile, sometimes it's just not gonna work.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: And have you guys ever experienced a student that, you know, anatomically, it's just not gonna work for them?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it's for me, it's the the flexibility at the top of the ankle joint.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: If that's not fully opened and it's locked, no matter what you do, you can't get over your shoe because being on point is in your absolute most pointed foot.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what I even say to them when I'm teaching.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, guys, these are point shoes, not sit shoes.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: We are actually pointing our feet in a point shoe.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so that is again going back to the basics, why the tondus are important, why the degouches are important.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I will give them a lot of tondus and degouches in their point shoes because you also now have to resist the ribbon and the elastic, but it's that openness in the ankle joint that is so important.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: And some kids, unfortunately, and people in general just are built with that locked up.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: And no matter how much you try, sometimes it just won't open.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it's dangerous to dance on the back of your box, right?
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: We can't, we you have to be on the on the center of that box and slightly over sometimes, depending on what you're doing.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's you're gonna break the shoe down incorrectly, it is gonna create more instability.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, and that's typically what I see.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: I either see at competitions people with dead shoes and they're falling forward because there's not enough support in the shank anymore, or they're not even broken in because they've never gotten fully on their box.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: They're way back on the back.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that's, you know, that that's stressing out parts of your leg and your calf and your ankle that shouldn't be doing any work, right?
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: But you're having to compensate for the fact that you're not all the way over.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that just always kind of makes me part breaks my heart a little bit when I see that happening on stage because something went wrong in the process of getting them to this space.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: And where did that breakdown occur?
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the same way that we have to trust our students as teachers, the students should also be able to trust their teachers that if they are being held back a year, maybe to do point, that it's for a reason they haven't developed these muscles they need, or they maybe have more range of motion in their ankles to go that they can build on flat right now.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, some people anatomically aren't made for it.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I find a lot that when they don't have that flexion in their um upper ankle, that they then bend their knees to get up over their box.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then that causes problems everywhere.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think if your trunk is out of alignment because you can't get over your point, that just shows the trickle-down effect that it's gonna cause problems in your hips, your knees, your ankles, your calves, and it just truly is a trickle-down effect.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: But that, um, what you were saying about the dead shoes on stage as well, it's like that goes back to the same thing of they're not costume pieces.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: For competition dancers, you know, the younger dancer should be in a hard shoe.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: Their foot isn't gonna look like, you know, minor Catherine's on stage, where we've built the strength, and we can also have that aesthetic point shoe.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna be in very hard point shoes and that can support them, you know, while they need that.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I see dancers, you know, breaking their shoes so that they get that line, but then they don't have the muscle to back it up yet.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where it also gets dangerous.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: If you're bending your shoes so that you can have a certain look, whether it be on stage or in class, then that's also a problem because you're risking injuring yourself.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: And there's such, you know, that's there's so many pop culture memes and things that you just you see.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: You see dancers and they're banging their shoe.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: You see dancers and they're bending their shoe.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's just what you see because that's sort of i idealized.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the reality is sometimes you don't even need to do any of that.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: You just need to work through your shoe.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: And nobody wants to do that because that's work.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's ours.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, you could slam your shoe in a door and call it a day.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: That I say to them all the time, sew and go.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: We sew, we go.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: We don't, you know, just because Bella Boylston is doing something to her shoe on Instagram, right?
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: She has worked for this her whole life.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: This is like, you know, you your point shoes are built the way they are for a reason, especially for younger kids.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like Tommy was saying, like, kids don't need to be in dead shoes.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, I know as a parent, I mean, I'm not a parent, but I can imagine, and when I'm speaking with parents, they don't quite understand.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I just bought these.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: What do you mean they don't last a year?
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and actually it's so dangerous for your child to be dancing in what we call dead shoes.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: And it's they need the support.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: And oftentimes with dead shoes, you're either a go over or sometimes you're a pullback.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: For me, when my shoes are dead, I pull back.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so the parent will all of a sudden be like, well, like she's not even getting over them anymore.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: How are they dead?
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, well, that's one way they can die is you you're just mush.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so, as frustrating as it is, like it does take you having to get a lot of shoes here and there, especially when you're going on point.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_07: So, all of these, like the mention of the dead shoe, when you are watching a dancer, a training dancer with your eye, your professional eye, and maybe also speaking on behalf of Leslie and I, we both judge.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_07: I want the parents and the teachers to understand.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_07: Can we, as professionals, tell when it's a dead shoe versus lack of technique?
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_07: Because there's a difference of understanding how to manipulate the shoe.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_07: And I don't want people to be like, oh, well, their shoes are dead and that's why they're pulling back, or oh, their shoes are dead, that's why they're too far over, you know, or can we analyze the whole picture and tell, oh, there's there's other things going on here, and that's why this isn't happening.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_07: And it's not really just because of the dead shoe.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_07: Does that make sense?
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_07: Can we like tell that?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_07: I want people to understand if we can or not, because I don't want people to think that it's an excuse.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know how you feel, Catherine, but I feel like there's a certain like squish to the like look of the dead shoe that like I if I see a dancer and two that of a shoe, it just like makes me like, oh, like I feel like it hurts also.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: But um the your shoes start to bend odd places as well, not where your foot would naturally bend.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: You want your foot to bend up at your arch, like up here.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I find that when people are dead, they'll be knuckling or whatever.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's different ways to tell, but um, that's like a surefire way to see it.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's like there is like a squish to the point you not only the platform, but the the shank is just not bending properly.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's so true.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's and I think you know, especially because I've judged YGP for many years, you can also tell if it's just based on how they walked out, how the, like we were saying, transitions.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, if it's a dead problem or if it's a technique problem, or quite frankly, something else I want to stress a fit problem.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: It is absolutely imperative, and I know we kind of touched on this earlier, that you go get fit in person by a professional fitter.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: Point shoe sizing is very different from straight shoe sizing.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, oftentimes I see with dancers pulling back, their vamp is either too long or too short, depending on their toe length.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: The wings on the side might be too hard or too soft, you know.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: So it's also to give yourself the best chance, also to make your shoes last the longest, you must get professionally fit.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like it is the number one tip of anything that don't buy them on Amazon, like we said.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: Because everybody's feed is different.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, especially with kids, you know, 10, 11, 12, 13, early teens, well, my friend has freeds and I want to wear freeds, and Nusonso has, you know, that's like the alphabet soup game of ballet schools.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's the same thing with point shoes.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: They want to wear Nikolai because their friend is, but they might have the completely wrong foot for a Nikolai.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: So it's you it there's so many elements, but it's very easy for us to see if it's the fit, if it's the dead shoes, or if it's technique.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, you can't use that as an excuse.
• 43:47
  unknown: Yeah.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: And like we keep saying, the shoe, the shoe is really a tool to help you with what you've already created.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: So if your tool is m mushy or falling apart, or like you are only Going to be as good as the tool that you're working with.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: You can't technique your way out of a shoe that is falling apart.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just not going to work.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really what I can see is if your shoe is dead, I'm like, you might have this gorgeous upper body and I might see you pulling up, but like that shoe is not supporting you.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: So you can't, that's that is part of the equation, is that shoe, like Catherine said, has to be fit properly, number one, and has to still have enough life in it to do its job.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because when the wings are dying, your side to side isn't supported.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: When your shank is dying, your front to back isn't supported.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then when your platform is dying, you're just your toes are on the ground.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we're looking for, right?
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: We're not Anna Pavlova truly dancing on her toes.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: We are people, you know, with a support system that has been developed over a hundred years or more, you know, to support you.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not to say that you can just put them on anybody.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the tool is only yours only good as the tool that you have, but it's also works in the opposite direction.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: If I might add just to the how can you tell if it's just a dead shoe versus um a technique problem.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think a good way to tell is in a soft shoe, you should really be able to roll through.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: But you'll see a lot of dancers if it is a technique problem.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: They'll be up or they are down.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's like flat foot or on point.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I think as far as like using the dead shoe excuse, that's a really good giveaway is that roll through because that is that calf strength that Catherine was talking about with the pre-point and all of that.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's the dead giveaway because anyone can be flat.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people, if they have you know the structure, they can be up, but it's what happens between and it's the transitions.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_07: I completely agree.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_07: I have a question about choreography when it comes to point and being like a dancer who is freshly on point and this is new for them.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_07: Let's say we want to bring it to competition or we're gonna perform.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_07: Maybe they are advanced in their technique on flat, they're pulling triple quad pirouettes, they're doing some beautiful skills.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_07: Are we scaling back the level of difficulty once we add a shoe to the mix?
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_07: Or are dancers and teachers thinking, well, if you can do it on flat, then you should be able to do triple pirouette on point.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_07: So, because I feel as a judge that I've seen a lot of dances who I can tell dancers who come out on point, maybe they're doing contemporary ballet, maybe they're doing a variation for a YAGP style.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_07: And it feels a little too advanced for where they're at.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_07: Although I feel like that if they took the shoes off, they would be succeeding really well.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_07: So I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh a million percent.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: Especially on the ballet competition circuit like YAGP, it never, in my experience as a judge, it never helps you to have a shoe on for the sake of having a shoe on.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: In the pre-competitive category, which is ages nine to eleven, it is strongly encouraged that they don't wear point shoes.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost like an under, like a non-requirement requirement that they don't wear point shoes until they're at least a junior.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then even in that category, if you're not feeling solid, if it's not, if you don't feel like you're on top of your legs, it would never be a wrong choice to either go clean and do less or just take the shoes off entirely.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's never like, oh, she's in point shoes, so I'm automatically gonna score her higher.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: Or I'm automatically going, she's automatically gonna win ahead of people on flat.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: Never, ever, ever, ever.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: You want to feel really solid and good, and it's always better to go cleaner and safety first.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I absolutely agree.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Catherine said it perfectly.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: You should definitely not just put the point shoe on because you think you're gonna get some more points.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um sometimes it can do the opposite.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Court, I mean, I think it's it's very similar to when you have a really great jazz dancer and then you put her in a three-inch heel.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's a completely different experience when you are in a point shoe, when you have to plie, relevant, rotate versus when you're just going up on demi point.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's a your weight shift is different.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it's I agree just from my perspective too.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you are not feeling 1000% confident in that shoe, I would also rather see you take that shoe off, put on a lovely ballet shoe, do your lovely variation, and like I'm gonna give you all the points.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I always I talk about this often as a jazz dance educator and a heel, a heel advocate, a Laduca advocate.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_07: I I feel like that Laduka heels are like the equivalent two point shoes, but the jazz dance version.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_07: But dancers still need a level of technique and ankle strength to support pointing all the way through an entire piece of leather.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_07: And sometimes when I see it's trendy to go on stage now and put their Laduca shoes and their boots on, and it's like, yeah, but you're not pointing your foot at all.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_07: Do you have the ankle strength to support this leg line?
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_07: And do you know how to keep your weight forward and all of the things that come in into putting three inches on the back of your heel?
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_07: So I kind of like to use that as a comparison because I think that um the same level of ballet technique that people need to have to go into a point shoe, I expect them to have the same level to go into a jazz heel.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_07: To me, it's like the same equivalent.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_07: And sometimes it hinders them but then helps them when they're trying to present it on stage and at the end of the day, it's a competition.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_07: Like absolutely train in it, but we also need to know like when it's uh when we have perfected and uh drilled this new uh layer of our technique so well enough to be able to compete it.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_07: I think that it's okay if we have to delay that and wait a little bit.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_07: It shouldn't like we've been saying, there's no rush.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_07: So I think that you know, point at 12, point at 13 on stage is kind of hard.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_07: Even if you have been doing point in studio for the two or three years, you're still working on that.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_07: And it's gonna be a tricky thing to like throw out onto the competition stage because then everyone thinks the level of difficulty has to be at a certain point.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_07: And that's the same in any part of competitive dance.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_07: Oh, let's throw the aerial, oh, let's throw this trick in there.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_07: The level of difficulty is what makes people think my score is gonna get higher if I put this in there.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_07: Even if it's done sloppy, who cares?
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_07: And it's like, no, no, no, we all care.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_07: We don't want to see sloppy on stage.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_07: We care especially.
• 50:20
  unknown: Yeah, yeah.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_02: And Tommy, I don't know if this was the same for you, but with point work, there's almost two rites of passage.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_02: One is getting on point, and then the second is being able to do your first solo on point on stage.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember that, like the first point role.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_02: That was like the second thing you had to like work for and earn.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: And like it was a big deal.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, at least for me, it was like that.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, yeah, I agree.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like that was almost like the more exciting one too, because when you get your point shoes, like we said, it's like you get them, you get up, you're like, oh, now what?
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's what this is like.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then you're like, now what?
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can do like eight releves the first day, and then you take them off, and you're like, Oh, you know, we got photos with our point shoes, but it is a slow build.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: But when you get to that first achievement, that is like, you know, that's the cherry on top.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's the not only do I have point shoes, but I can dance in them enough to have this achievement.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's such a good point.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because I feel like for so many kids on point, they might not even get that opportunity because they're it's not the path that the studio is taking.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: And they really are just like, now you're on point, and we do a recital dance on point, maybe, or we just put point shoes on to be at the bar.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I think more power to you if like the goal is like, well, we want to give our kids this opportunity.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: We want to strengthen their feet, we want to strengthen their ankles, but like we are not gonna do the nutcracker, we're not doing Swan Lake, you know.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that's just the next, the other part of the conversation is that like when when you as a person are thinking about do I want to be on point, is it because it's cool to be on point?
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: Is it because you see a future for yourself on point?
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: Is it because everybody else is doing it?
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: Or like there's gotta be a reason.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I know like at 11 years old, it probably is just my friends are doing this and I want to do it too.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: But like, take a moment, because we have a lot of students listening, decide if that's really what you want to do.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because not only does it hurt sometimes, it's a lot of upkeep.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh people's moms aren't gonna sit there and sew their shoes.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: I hope they don't.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: You have to sew the shoes.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you have to participate in the fitting.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just like mom buy me a pair of ballet shoes, I wear a size six.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is an ongoing commitment to your craft and to something you're participating in that also costs a lot of money.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_07: And yeah, studio that's the same thing can be said about the the studio as a whole, because I feel like that a lot of studios feel the pressure of I must offer point to my dancers at a certain time because this is this is the trajectory of dance.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_07: And but we don't have the level of a ballet teacher that is required.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_07: Or maybe my our ballet teacher thinks that we are at that level, but maybe we're not.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, unfortunately, we have to kind of like look at the bigger picture here and really decide like, is this something I can safely offer to my dancers?
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_07: And I think that it is okay if that is not your studio and you can't offer that and they can seek that elsewhere, but we have to be realistic and not trying to throw our kids up on point just because it's part of the of owning a studio.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_07: We have to have the the program to support that.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the another question I get, this is kind of sort of veering in a different direction.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_02: But I have a lot of parents say, Well, I have a boy.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_02: Can my boy go on point?
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we're at the the day and age now where yes, but but what I've seen with boys who want to go on point is it's like, oh, well, you're a boy, so you can you're having an easier time.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, if they want to do it, great, but you have to take the same process.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_02: It is a whole different level, it's a whole different training, like we were saying, like you're even more forward, is a whole different level of balance.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's a rite of passage for the girls.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_02: So it needs to be a rite of passage for the boys as well.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_02: Or male presenting dancers, or whoever wants to go on point, no matter who you are.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_02: You have to be in a situation where you are going to take the time to do it.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_02: Because we all had to, and I think it's important for studios, like you were just saying, like there has to be somebody who knows what they're doing to put them on point.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: There's no shortcuts.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: This is not something you can hack.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's you just have to put in the time.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: And like you said, it's a rite of passage, and it's one of those things in the dance world, you know, there's there's plenty of things that we have abandoned.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's just because you had to go through it doesn't mean I have to go through it now.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: We have moved on, we have evolved.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: But this, unfortunately, we all have to do this because this is just part of the process.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: And Courtney, what you were saying about uh that's exactly the route that I went.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: My competition studio did not offer point.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I really like like I really appreciate that about them because we didn't have the the teachers or structure there for that.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: I found ballet and point elsewhere, and I'm really glad that I did.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad that I didn't just get to that age of 12, that token age that people hear, oh, you should go on point at 12.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't just strap my point shoes on in my competition studio and try to figure it out.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, there's so many programs.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: I would leave half a day of school and my, you know, my electives would count towards ballet, my art, my um gym class, those would count towards my ballet.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: My ballet teacher would sign off for that.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I would be able to go to ballet halfway through the day, get like really structured ballet, and then go be crazy at my comp studio.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: So that was a really nice structure for me.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I am so happy that my comp studio did not offer points.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I like that they stayed in their lane and they knew that that wasn't where they excel, you know.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I found that elsewhere.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: But they supported us in like helping us find that other avenue, you know, not so much partnered with ballet studios, but you know, local ones they knew had these programs.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: So then we would kind of find our way through that if we wanted extra ballet.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, we talk about so much about like trusting your teachers, trusting your studio, like all of those things.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_07: It is very important to trust our teachers, but we also have to make sure that our teachers are and our studio understand what lane they need to stay in and be in and what their strengths are and what their weaknesses are, and that is okay.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_07: We can't always offer every single thing, especially based on accessibility and where you're located and if you have the the qualified individuals to do so.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_07: So seeking out to a ballet program, if the studio is okay with it, I think I'm totally on board with.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_07: I hope that most studios are cool with.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_07: But I also think that like if you're if you're hearing based on this conversation, like, oh, I'm doing ballet two to three days a week, and oh, I've done point or pre-point for six months, and my teacher thinks I'm ready at 12, then it feels like that you've checked off a lot of great boxes to lead you in the right direction.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_07: But if you're like, oh, I've only taken 45 minutes of point for six months and I've only done one one day a week of ballet leading up to that for a year, and I'm only 10 years old, maybe that's a red flag.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_07: I don't dance for 30 minutes.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_07: You know, like I hope that this conversation gives a bigger picture for all of the parents who might not be educated on when is point what's point and what's my studio providing me.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_07: Hopefully you're hearing straight from professional ballet dancers right here and a previous competitive dancer that these are the tools that you need to make sure that your the training you're receiving is safe and appropriate for your age, your level, your ability.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_07: Final thing I'll say, just from my personal, and I'm curious, Leslie, if you uh because I actually don't even remember.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_07: But did you do point, Leslie?
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I did point.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: I started when I was 10.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_00: In your in my pavilovas, yeah, which I still have.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: They are rock hard.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: There is no arch in any capacity, it's just a big long shoe.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I did point all the way through high school, but like not college.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: Again, no, no, no, no.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: Not pro.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: What do you mean?
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_07: But like even just like, you know, like as a as a extra, like a special skill.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: No, no.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, because I didn't do it in college.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was an elective, and I was like, that's not for me, you know.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't do it.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: The last time I put on a pair of point shoes was back when I was still auditioning.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think I went to the Fan of the Opera audition.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then I went to the Anastasia audition because they needed, I mean, for Catherine and Tommy, Courtney and I are both very short.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: So those were roles that like they were looking for short girls who did point.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, and I I think I said I guess I put on a pair for the Radio City audition one year.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: But then when they were like, Well, the point girls are in the bear costume, and I was like, that's not that's not for me.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been a while, and and my ankles, I mean, I've had three ankle surgeries, even without being on point.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: So like I just have very, very loose joints and it was not for me.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I wish I had not devoted my time to it in high school, and you know, because I could have been spending that time doing something that would have helped me more in my musical theater career, you know, I could have devoted that time towards another jazz class or towards a voice lesson, you know.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I think because it was sort of the culture of dance everywhere, it was like time for point.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: We're all gonna do point now.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, okay, well, I guess I'm doing this.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: We just don't need to do this.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: We don't need to do this.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_07: Well, I guess I wanted to ask that.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_07: And I wanted to mention just from my personal experience as someone who did go on to be a professional dancer in New York City, I knew I was never gonna be a ballet dancer.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_07: And I knew that ri very early on.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_07: I didn't love ballet and I don't have the feet for ballet.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_07: And I learned point again because rite of passage, it's part of the curriculum.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_07: And I did it a little bit in college because it was requirement.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_07: But I actually do regret not keeping up with it a little bit more to maybe an intermediate level, not like professional advanced level, but because I wanted to be able to pull out my point shoes when there was a musical theater audition that asked, people watch me dance in ballet or even jazz, and they're like, your technique is so good.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_07: How do you not do point?
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_07: And I'm like, uh, cause I chose to stop doing it.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_07: Like I just didn't, it hurt and I didn't think I was good enough.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_07: But then I realized that there were jobs that needed just a little bit more, you know, like someone that can actually just like do a PK Erebus gonna, yeah, you know.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_07: So if you've never done that, you're excluding yourself from those opportunities.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_07: And I felt like that I didn't keep up with it enough to be able to put myself into those opportunities.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_07: So I do encourage dancers to explore point, try it if it's offered to you.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_07: Like, don't say I'm not doing this, but like give it a shot and see how it goes.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_07: And then, like, if you want to be a pro, you never know when that commercial might say, we need dancers on point.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_07: And let's be real.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, we all have I hope we all follow models who what's the what's the account on Instagram?
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, at least you could we wanna we wanna prevent that, you know?
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_07: We wanna be the dancers who are getting hired, even if you're not at the level of our two guests here.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_07: At least you could still possibly know how to go up on your box properly, unlike no offense to those models out there.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_07: Offense, offense, okay, offense, offense.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_02: Hire real dancers, please.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_02: But it make it does, it makes you more versatile.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and you never know when you may need it.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_02: And with even if you're a competition dancer, I didn't throw this in earlier, but I also did competitions for a few years when I was younger, like 12 to 14, like Tremaine and Showstoppers and all that.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_02: But I remember, and that was just that was not my thing, and so I went ballet, but ballet is the basis for all forms of dance.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like it cannot, you cannot go wrong having some ballet in your arsenal, even if it's not point.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_02: So, like for all the competition dancers out there, it's really going to help you point even more so for strength if you're able to.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_02: But like ballet is the classical basis for all of it.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I was actually talking to a friend of mine who's a dancer with Alonzo King Lines Ballet, and she is like the creature, like she is beyond a stunning contemporary dancer.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_02: And she was like, Yeah, I really didn't train in contemporary, I trained in ballet.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and she is able to like it's ridiculous what she can do.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_02: And but she had the ballet basis, and so point is just gonna help you strengthen that, like you were saying, and make you more versatile.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I agree.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_07: And we love ballet over here on the ball.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_07: We do, but we're really happy to have talked about point because that was a lot a lot of people were asking about when is there gonna be a point episode, and here it is, everybody.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_07: So I hope you all enjoyed it.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_07: It was such a great chat.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_07: Thank you, Tommy and Catherine, for being here and and for your amazing careers.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_07: Catherine, you've had such a beautiful career, and Tommy, you're still living it right right now.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_07: I hope to see you on stage one day.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_07: And I'd love for you both.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_07: I know that Catherine, that was kind of like a perfect lead out, but I'm sure you can find another great thing to lead us out with to say because you're so good at it.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_07: But uh, any final thoughts that you want to say?
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_07: Anything we missed, anything that you want to, you can talk to whoever you want, a parent, a studio owner, a ballet teacher, the dancers, anyone you want out there in dance world.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_07: Final thoughts on point today.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_02: I I think the biggest thing, especially for the parents, don't be scared of it.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of parents are like terrified their kids gonna ruin their feet if they go on point.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_02: I've had a couple parents be like, well, I want her to not damage her bones and joints.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_02: But if it's done properly, if you have the right teacher, if you trust the teacher, trust the process, don't rush the process, you're not going to damage your bones, your joints.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it is totally it's a doable process, but it has to be done correctly.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_02: So don't be scared of it, just make sure you're in the right place for it and for your child.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, to piggyback off of Catherine, I would say that no good point work doesn't start in the shoe.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the takeaway that we have been talking about this entire podcast episode is that it starts way before that.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_01: It starts in your structured ballet class and it starts with your pre-point classes that you do, and then you get that right of passage, the point shoe.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's constant building from there.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_01: When you get that point shoe, it's not your golden ticket to run around and do whatever you want on point.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_01: It is that discipline.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's really, really important because it can be so dangerous.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that would be my takeaway is that good point work does not start in the point shoe.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_01: It starts way before that.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_07: Thanks for tuning in to our latest episode, all about points and training for dancers.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_07: Special shout out to our guests, Katherine and Tommy, for joining us on this wonderful discussion.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_07: Don't forget to follow their careers on Instagram.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_07: You can find Katherine at Catherine underscore Morgan and Tommy at Tommy Lib.
• 1:05:18
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• 1:05:24
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• 1:05:31
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• 1:05:39
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• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_06: Be sure to check out IDA affiliated competition Star Talent.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_06: Star Talent is excited to celebrate its 20th season in 2026.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_06: They are delighted to continue their collaboration with Impact Dance Adjudicators, featuring IDA judges on all judging panels.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_06: StarTalent holds events in West Virginia, Tennessee, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia, with their national finals set to be held in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_06: Their competition was designed to foster a positive dance environment for both recreational and competitive dancers.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_06: Their goal is to create an atmosphere that is enjoyable, organized, and fair for dancers, teachers, and parents alike.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_06: StarTalent emphasizes that competition is about striving to become the best dancer you can be, both in performance and attitude.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_06: Additionally, Star Talent provides scholarship and title opportunities.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_06: For more information about Star Talent and to register for an upcoming event, visit their website at StarTalent Productions.com or check out their Facebook and Instagram.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_00: Coming up in the next few weeks, look forward to a throwback episode about ballet training, a conversation with former competitive dancers who are now dance parents, and another throwback for the parents.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_07: Tune in next week for some more great episodes on Making the Impact Season 7.