Latest / Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast / Issue 358: Turning Point

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Issue 358: Turning Point · Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast

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I'm going to regret this. Welcome to the ned Palty. Hi. This
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is Nick and Ostasu, story editor on Star Wars, the Clone Wars and
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Star Wars bad Batch, and you are listening to Aggressive Negotiations. Hello,
0:23
and welcome to Aggressive Negotiations that wonderful little slice of Star Wars Heaven. And
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I am just one of your hosts, Matthew Rushing and with me as he
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is every single week, the one and only illustrious Jedi Master John Mills,
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and I want to announce a special promotion here on aggressive Negotiations that we are
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offering thirty three percent off of a stay in the exclusive Royce Hemlock Suite here
0:50
in Mount Tantis Broadcast Headquarters, where you can stay in a suite tended to
0:55
by none other than Doctor Royce Hemlock, where he will ensure that every bit
0:59
of info, every aspect of your stay is perfect. He will make sure
1:03
that everything that you could possibly think would happen in the Doctor Hemlock Suite will
1:08
happen. So that's thirty three percent off limited time here through aggressive negotiations.
1:15
Oh oh, that's terrifying, I know, isn't it. But think of
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the possibilities right. Look, the Star Wars hotel flopped. Let's make a
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Mount Tantas hotel at least, right, I'm curious. Ooh, Disney could
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do their own Halloween harr ights, but at Galaxy's Edge, and they could
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have a doctor Hemlock section. Boom, there you go, money making.
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We keep throwing these money making ideas out of Disney and they never listened.
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I don't get it. Are they Are they still listening to the show?
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I don't know. I don't think they are. Unfortunately, I think they've
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stopped listening mainly because they just feel bad about the fact that we keep giving
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these incredible ideas to them and then they don't use them, and then they
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realize their mistake, and so I think that's really what it is. Yeah,
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it is completely embarrassing, but for all of you that are listening,
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we really appreciate it. Please make sure that you follow us and like us
2:01
and subscribe wherever you're getting your podcast. Of course, you can also find
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us on the ex Twitter at the Jedi Masters. You can also find us
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at the Nerd Party. You can find us on Facebook and Facebook dot com
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slash the Nerd Party. You can find us at the nerd party on Instagram.
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But John, we have reached a tipping point, and this episode really
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is not only setting up where we're going to go by the end of this
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season, but it's also setting up everything that we're going to be looking at
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for season three, especially with this beginning here of connecting the other clones that
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have created this resistance and what's going on with them, the clones that Echo
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has joined. And I found this an incredibly fascinating and really interesting beginning to
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the episode where we just dive right in saving these clones who are being shipped
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somewhere, and we also find out later on the episode they're clones who have
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begun to question their orders and therefore are being shipped off. And I find
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this to be really fascinating, and again it just continues to add layers to
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the story and it's incredibly fun opening. You know, we have this heist
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of this ship with these clones that we know, like Gregor and others,
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Echo and the like, and man, what a great opening. It's beyond
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great. I'm going to slow it down here just to specifically heat praise on
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the animation of this section. It's naturally the editing, the camera angle choices.
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All of that are great, but when you see that cruiser in the
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beginning, do that pass as it's leaving the planet. It's a stunning shot.
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And there's so many stunning shots in this episode, but especially these space
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shots are phenomenal. It's such a reminder of how far everything has come.
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And then additionally, with the way that everything is laid out and edited on
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this heist, not only do we have our clear sense of space and where
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are we in relation to everything, but so much of the cutting and the
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ship movements reminded me so much of Clone Wars battle sequences that we got,
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but being able to look at it and say, oh, once again,
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here's a refinement, like you can see how everything has grown since those earliest
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days if you've been with everything since the start like we have, and it
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is just it's one of those sequences I could just watch over and over and
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over again because it's so it's put together so well up to an including when
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the star Destroyer shows up at the end, well, the Venitor shows up
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at the end too, you know, to you know, drive to drive
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them away by being reinforcements. It's just a phenomenal opening to the episode.
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And I realized as I was watching it, and as you were talking about
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it right now, that I would give anything, whether it's a book series,
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whether it's another animated series, whether it's a limited series like Tales of
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the Jedi or something like that. I want the story of that Clone Resistance
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from their point of view. I want a series of stories like that.
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I want to like because you always have the sense that there's something big happening
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off screen that you're not seeing, and every time we have a hint of
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something like that, I'm always hopeful that we're going to get something more to
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come to us. And I realized in this moment how badly I want that.
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Yeah, No, I can totally understand why you would. I think
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there's just so much about this episode that I think is done really well.
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You know, I think it's you know, when I was talking about the
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way that this is setting up the end of this season and on into the
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next, I was actually surprised at the hints that they give us for parts
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of season three with how You get to Tantus. I mean, the fact
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that we're erasing the database on this ship is a clue as to why they're
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doing that, because they've been given clearance to go, They've been given the
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codes we now know, and so I love that. I love the way
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that the writing of this show is so intentional to be giving us these little
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clues as to all the stuff that we're going to need. So in many
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ways, you know, if you had watched this season and you'd watched the
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very beginning of season three, you actually know exactly what they needed on how
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to get to Tantus. They had given you all the clues. And we've
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praised many times, I think the writing of this show, and again this
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is a place where you're talking about the visuals. This is another place where
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the writing is doing the job that it needs to do. It's a I
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mean, you know, I think it's a masterclass and compact storytelling and making
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sure that all the important story points are there for you and you have everything
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you need. And what again, I think the thing that is so interesting
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about this is the way in which we're doing this again in twenty five at
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most thirty minute episodes, and that's just an incredible feat right to be doing
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that, and it really shows how these writers have latched on to everything that
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they were taught, specifically by George Lucas in the Clone Wars to get us
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to this point where I think the storytelling here is just so complete and it's
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a wonderful job. They've done such a great job. Well. On top
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of that, there are two things. One I like the fact that it
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immediately in this opening, with a very little moment, illustrates again why the
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storm Troopers are necessary to replace the Clones, because the Clones are having a
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hard time on the whole being keeping other clones in line. Basically, they
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have too much individual personality at this point, so they need a non clone
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force to keep the average clone in line. I love that. And in
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terms of the storytelling, it's not just that it's complete storytelling, it's that
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it's efficient storytelling, and it does a thing that I've always loved about the
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original Six Star Wars films. How long a time period passes with Crosshair at
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Tantis, I don't know. I know that they're rebuilding and have almost rebuilt
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the peers at Pabou, which we saw destroyed last episode. We know that
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enough time is passed that they can mention it as time having passed. Is
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it a week, is it a month? Is it six months? It's
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whatever I need it to be. I can look at the story and I
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can say, oh, well for this to make sense to me, it
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needs X, Y and Z, And a lot of people might come at
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that and say and I've encountered people to come out it and say it's like,
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well, no, you need to specifically tell me these things. No,
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I need you to be loose with it so that you never box yourself
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in. And that's why I think Lucas's sort of jazz storytelling is alive here
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where it's hitting the notes that I need, like Luke training on Diegoba in
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The Empire Strikes Back. If you're reading The Empire Strikes Back, as you
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know, these passages of time are very tightly spaced together, then you could
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read it as like, oh, well, Luke's there for a couple of
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days, maybe a week, or you could look at it and say,
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well, they had to fly to a no At without hyperdrive. Luke's there
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for a month, Luke's there for three months, who knows how long it
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took. Because you don't need to show me all the boring stuff in between.
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You just need to show me what's important, the breadcrumbs, if you
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will, and that loosens it up for you to tell the stories in between
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those moments later if you want to. I just I love that part of
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it, and that's why I always call it out when I see it.
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No, I mean, it makes sense to why you're so invested, especially
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in any film you watch with getting to the point, and so I think
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that might be where some of that comes from. Is you just possibly,
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yeah, you know, just give me the facts, ma'am. Just the
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facts. Well, now hold on a second, so let's be very careful
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here, because you know, Godfather Part two isn't exactly you know, couplea's
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great works, The Godfather, the Godfather Part two, Apocalypse. Now they
11:15
kind of meander a little bit, and I'm fine with that too. It's
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just that there's a it's it's about the choices that you make in respecting the
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amount of time that you have and making a decision about what you're showing.
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And so, you know, don't give me too much of a blanket statement
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on that. Okay, It's like it might explain why I had some trouble
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with and or here and there, but not, you know, not everything.
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I also love Heap by Michael mannon that thing is a meandering epic,
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so this is true, which is actually one of my problems with that movie.
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But anyway, I have to say I love that here too, that
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we are introducing the character of Hemlock and really helping us kind of know how
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bad this person in is, and you know, we get a sense of
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it when he comes in to meet Crosshair, but we also have it continued
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by having it told to us. Yeah, he was kicked out of the
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Republic Science Corps because he was he was too unconventional. And then of course
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we see him willing to, you know, treat Crosshair with utter contempt and
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do whatever it takes for him to get the information that he wants. And
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I love that about this episode where we just have this completely a moral character
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and he's going to do whatever it takes, you know, to get what
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he wants. And I find him to be when it comes to the pantheon
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of Star Wars villains, you know, one of the creepiest, one of
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the scariest, and in many ways, you know, if there is a
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villain in Star Wars, I think that ranks up there with the terrifying nature
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of anyone. I mean, the Emperor's the top right in Star Wars,
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I think Hemlock is right there with them because of the nature of what he's
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willing to do to get what he wants, and he just doesn't care about
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anyone. But what makes Hemlock even creepier in a large sense is Palpatine has
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a goal. Hemlock's entire goal simply seems to be, eh, why not
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right? Like, yes, he has projects of these steering and he wants
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to, you know, do certain things with it and everything. But like
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I get the Emperor wants to live forever and he wants to control everything.
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Clear, Hemlock's goal seems to be simply subjugating everything. It's not even about
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power per se for him. It's about just the the basis of motivations for
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him. It's like, you get what I'm getting at, where like his
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motivations are even more cold than the emperors. Because I can at least understand
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somebody who wants, oh, I want to live forever. It's like,
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well, okay, you're going about it the wrong way, bro, But
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I get what you're going for there. Like Hemlock, I can't plug into
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anything this guy is going for that I can see not a little note I
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wanted to bring up though, and I feel foolish for not really having either
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caught it or or anything like that before. Now is coming back to this
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episode and getting more time with Hemlock the hand thing, right, one of
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his hands is in a glove and he keeps playing with that hand. And
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what it brings to mind for me now in light of the third season of
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Bad Batch is Crosshair has a problem with his hand, and it's one of
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those things where it's like I don't think or even necessarily want an explanation,
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but it's almost like we're going to see in season three cross Hair is going
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to have a physical manifestation of the guy who messes him up. So he
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has a hand problem too. And Hemlock obviously there's something about his hand that
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is off and that he keeps going to it and he has it in a
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glove, and it's like, right, that's you talk about like foreshadowing things.
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I think that's an interesting little tie between those characters. Well, and
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I think I love you bringing that up because it's not something that I caught,
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but now that I'm thinking about it, we know that Hemlock has experimented
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on himself because he's made himself immune to the toxin that he has, you
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know, caught cross Hair with, right, So this is not a man
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who's above experimenting on himself and so therefore his hand thing could be also a
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result of what he's done as well, which is this inability to kind of
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control the motor functions of one of his hands. And so yeah, I
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love that you bring that up. And you know, I think this is
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the scary part. Like, you know, you can kind of understand somebody
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who wants to have ultimate power so they can control everything, but the mad
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scientist who just wants to do a thing, to be able to do a
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thing is even scarier in a lot of ways. And I think that's what
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Hemlock is. And I love, you know, the characterization of him.
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And I think the vocal performance is just outstanding. And it's one of the
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things that also makes him kind of scary because he has that kind of like
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Hannibal nature to him where everything is very calm and terrifying because it's so calm,
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yes, uh, And when they're torturing cross Hair at the end,
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having that one shot showing him smiling a little bit, it's like, yeah,
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yeah, like that dude that like, yeah, there, you know,
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like it gives you that that that goosebumps sort of thing for sure.
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And just you know, you mentioned the toxin that they use to catch cross
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hair that he's made himself immune to. There are moments where we don't even
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really think about it too much as fans, especially fans who've been there.
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You know, we've seen Star Wars five billion times, and it's like it's
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one of those things where I keep saying to people, it's like, well,
17:41
you like you feel the need to explain the you know, Luke's shot,
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the you know, the exhaust port, because you've seen it so many
17:48
times, you forget that it's literally like an impossible shot, right, And
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we don't always stop to think about all the things that the Emperor was doing
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while the Republic was in while the Republic still existed, to build Mount Tantis,
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but then also the absolute cold blooded evil where you build a base that
18:15
has the ability to knock out or kill anybody at any time that talks and
18:22
flooding the place, why would you build that? Like what like you have
18:29
to imagine throughout the entire base, they have all of this stuff where it's
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like, yeah, Okay, we can kill anybody in that sector. Now,
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Like imagine being the person building you know, not to get to Kevin
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Smith Clerk's about it, but somebody had to build that, and nobody at
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any point was like, I don't know, I think that's a little excessive
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if we need that. Yeah, I mean it's one of those things where
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you know, we're building into the layers of this, especially these characters,
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and we were doing it throughout the series, for all of our bad Batch
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characters, for all the clone characters we meet, and even you know,
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of course Hemlock is a villain. You know, we do the same thing
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with Emery here even And I think if what I love about this is that
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there's there's that moment and especially thinking back on this now watching season three,
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I feel like there's that moment where you can already see the term beginning to
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happen with her where yes, she's she's just she doesn't like what's happening.
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Like she enjoyed being a scientist with this person and doing all these discoveries,
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you know, on the Zillow Beast or whatever, right, but to do
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it on a clone, you know, we know these clones are being sent
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there for these nefarious purposes, and so I love watching that with with her.
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I think, I think it's it's a it's a great moment and and
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it again, it's the beauty of us being able to go back, you
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know now with the for with the knowledge that we have of of season three
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and what's coming. And it makes me excited to be able to kind of
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just watch the entire series together, uh, you know, kind of back
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to back and get that experience of how this all plays together. But you
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know, something we haven't talked anything about, which is the other side of
20:30
this episode with Echo going to Paboo. And you know, I love again
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this connecting with Senator Chucci, her work with the clones that continuing. But
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you know, man, that the whole part on pabo is just so much
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fun. You know, you really are seeing how these clones are taking to
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life there. Uh, they become an integral part of this place. And
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you know, I I just the joy and the fun of having Omega learned
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to fly the marauder, you know, and doing the tech turn and you
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know, all that stuff is just great. I mean, and what's great
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about it too is, of course, you know, we know now the
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next two episodes coming, she's really bonded with Tech, and you know this
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is going to make what comes so painful. But this again, we've just
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been doing such a great job this whole series of building these relationships and specifically
21:37
with Omega and Tech and Omega and his relationship with Fee and so you know,
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this is this was great. I mean, I think this is fantastic
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stuff. And it does. It's a nice juxtaposition the horror with the way
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in which people are trying to fight this horror. Well, you see what
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Cross could have had if he'd made a different decision. Yeah, back at
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the end of of the first season, think of everything he could have had.
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We're seeing the light he could have had. That's what's super brilliant about
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juxtaposing these moments this way. It also does exactly what I figured it would
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do when we were talking about my struggles with the Pabou episode last time,
22:25
where I was like, oh, to Parter, I know we're going to
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be there. It's always sort of like, you know, felt like it
22:30
should have breathed more. But and my specific thing being oh, Tsunami in
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the second episode, remember that that discussion. Anybody hasn't listened to the previous
22:38
episode. I went on about it a little bit, but to go back
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to what I was talking about, the storytelling style that Tsunami happening bought a
22:51
viewer like me, that was the shorthand necessary so that when we came to
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this episode, I know they've been there for a while. So it's the
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necessary means for me to feel like time has passed for cross Hair to have
23:07
been transported, strapped in, have hemlocked meet them, have all of this
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stuff happen. It gave me that sense of time scale and also that sense
23:18
that when Hunter has asked, are you sure you haven't rethought staying, I
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now have built in Well, look at everything that happened at the end of
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the last episode. I know they've been working to restore. They must have
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been here for long enough for that to be a question worth asking. Again,
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It's not the next day. Time has passed. So this is where
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I go, Okay, this is the second part of the Pabou episode right
23:45
that I was looking for. So it's it, you know, tip of
23:49
the hat to the people who know their jobs so well that you know,
23:55
like the story beats work exactly the way they're supposed to well. And the
24:00
beauty of this too is, you know, we we we saw the code
24:04
that had come in from Crosshair, and that tech thinks Crossair is trying to
24:12
warn them, and they they're wondering if they can actually trust Crosshair. Right,
24:18
But what we know is the viewer that this is another part of the
24:22
turn of that character. Right. One, he's not giving up Omega or
24:26
his crew to Hemlock, but but two here it's it's adding to that the
24:34
fact that this this character has definitely changed, like there is something in him
24:41
that broke, and now he has kind of realized what he should have realized
24:49
a long time ago. And like you said, the really sad part of
24:56
this whole thing is that we're seeing the life he could have had if he
25:03
had made that other choice. And I think that's a that was a brilliant
25:07
point on your part, because it does make the story here of Crosshair incredibly
25:15
sad to watch, because we know he doesn't have to be going through this.
25:19
He doesn't this, this doesn't this didn't have to be his life.
25:23
And and I think the beauty of that, right is that it really does
25:29
speak to the morality tale part. You know, this is such an important
25:34
thing to teach our kids. The choices that you make can have terrible consequences,
25:41
right, and so I really appreciate that this is one of those places
25:45
where we can see that playing out. I agree. I mean, it's
25:52
it's such grand storytelling, and it's such important storytelling because it's constructing all of
25:59
the us with the backdrop of things we've seen come before, things we know
26:04
are coming, and again, much like other things that we've gotten, you
26:12
know, like it gives added weight to what we see, what we've grown
26:18
up with. Basically, you know, I talked about having watched Star Wars
26:21
five billion times, anything like this, even going back to like Rogue one
26:26
or actually i'll throw this out there, going back to Rebels and the way
26:30
they used Vader and Rebels made Vader terrifying again, so that when I went
26:37
in to Star Wars and Empire strikes back in Return of the Jedi again,
26:42
I wasn't just saying about Hey, Anakin Skywalker. He was an innocent little
26:47
kid who made some bad choices and he got manipulated, and he thought this,
26:51
and he thought that now I'm able to recontextualize and say, no,
26:56
the Empire is really even worse than I thought it was. Don't forget that.
27:02
There's nothing cute about cheering for the bad guy. These are bad people
27:10
doing terrible things. They're not anti heroes. The anti heroes are the bad
27:17
Batch, right, like, but they're becoming real heroes for this whole thing.
27:21
You can't you can't sit there and giggle about the Emperor or anything like
27:26
that, because that guy he signed Hemlock's checks and he signed Tarkans checks and
27:33
he's you know, and we know crenics out there too, like these are
27:40
look at what they're doing to cross Hair and again to go back to Crosshair.
27:45
How beautiful that they've that in this season they take cross Hair from Boo.
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You betrayed the Batch. You're a terrible person too. I feel so
27:57
terrible for him because he's suffering the he's because he's suffering the consequences of his
28:03
choices. Everybody wants people to suffer the consequences of their choices. But what
28:08
does that really mean? Do I think cross Hair deserves this? Well,
28:14
no, he's seen the error of his ways, right, But even if
28:17
he hadn't seen the error of his ways, did he deserve this? Does
28:21
anybody like those are important questions to ask. The beauty of this and is
28:29
you know something that we've said over and over again, which is the way
28:32
in which the Star Wars animation is truly doing its job when it comes to
28:37
Star Wars storytelling. You can add to a universe by just giving it the
28:41
veneer of the thing, or you can truly understand that universe and so that
28:51
when you add something to it, it has real resonance. And you know
28:56
what we've seen in the Clone Wars. You know we've seen in the Bad
29:00
Match, We've seen in Tales of the Jedi. These are things to which
29:07
truly understand the universe or the storytelling that they're in, and so when they're
29:12
adding stories to that storytelling, it feels incredibly rich and well done, and
29:18
it creates in us this sense of seeing something incredibly special and so I love
29:27
it. I just love the work that they're doing here. And this is
29:33
another phenomenal episode in this season and I can't wait to honestly wrap it up
29:38
next week with you as we talk about the two part finale, because man,
29:45
it is just fantastic. Oh, I can't wait myself. I still
29:53
remember the first time watching the finale and just feeling like spoilers, feeling like
30:00
my heart got ripped out. Yeah, yeah, man? And are we
30:07
ready? Are we ready for that? John? I might have a little
30:11
something to drink while I'm while I'm watching there, Master Rushing, that's a
30:15
good call, It's a good call. I might have to take the edge
30:19
off in a couple of scenes. But we will get to meet up with
30:22
somebody who's who is an antihero. I guess you could say that comes back
30:27
into our lives every so often, especially in animation. So well, let's
30:32
looking forward to that and in the meantime, speaking of something that is rich
30:37
and well developed and truly entertaining. Where can people find you online? Well,
30:44
you can find me all over the place on social media under the name
30:45
Matt Rushing zero too. You can also find me here on the network with
30:48
a show I did with Drake Kaufman. We talked about every single chapter of
30:52
the Harry Potter series. It's called awl Posts. You can also find me
30:56
on the TFM network with a bunch of shows. One is This two Club,
31:00
which is a general geek show where we talk about all of those franchises
31:03
we love. John is a frequent guest over there, so please hit that
31:07
up and then you can find me with a bunch of Star Trek Talk with
31:10
the Orb Warp five, the Artificial Tango, Saddle Up and sometimes on literary
31:15
tracks. But John, if people wanted to catch up and see what you've
31:18
got going on these days, where would they find you? Oh, I
31:22
don't have much going on, but if you want to check out, you
31:26
can find me as Kessel Junkie out there on your social network of choice.
31:30
Like Matt said, I love going over and shaking things up over on the
31:33
six oz two Club. It's one of my favorite pastimes. And you can
31:36
also hear me right here on the network co hosting a show called house Lights
31:38
where we look at the work of directors and we have a time and as
31:42
of the recording of this show, I invite everybody to listen to me talk
31:48
back and forth with a couple of Trekky's about how they felt about Stuart Baird's
31:51
Star Trek Nemesis, which is always a fun discussion and Insurrection is still worse.
31:56
But in the meantime, Master Rushing, I think it's time for me
32:00
to go and pop in that DVD with a young Bain playing opposite Captain Picard,
32:07
and so I think it's time to close these negotiations. John Negotiations part
32:14
Foot, Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party,