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An ICE shooting in Texas — and a look inside a major SCOTUS immigration case · This Week On ICE

• 0:00
  [music]
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to This Week On ICE for September 24th, 2026.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Matt Kendrick.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm Kelly Kimball.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: On Sunday,
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: ICE agents in Austin, Texas,
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: rammed their vehicle into Venezuelan asylum seeker Wilbur Rafael Garces Perez
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: as he was making a DoorDash delivery.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: They then proceeded to shoot him at point-blank range, injuring him severely.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Miraculously,
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Bettis survived,
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: but may be permanently paralyzed on one side of his body and remains
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: in ICE detention at the South Texas Ice Processing Center in Pearsall.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: Kelly and I will discuss the latest shooting incident.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not the only major incident of violence from ICE this week.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: On Wednesday,
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: mere hours before we recorded this show,
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: ICE agents assaulted a U.S. citizen in Evanston, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: After beating him severely,
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: leaving him with injuries to his head,
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: neck, and teeth, they abandoned him in the street and fled.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Then we're looking ahead at the next Supreme Court term beginning in October.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Last season,
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: SCOTUS handed down major decisions impacting immigrants,
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: including ending temporary protected status for many persecuted people,
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: most prominently Haitians and Syrians,
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: as well as ruling that
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: the Trump administration could not eliminate birthright citizenship
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: by executive action.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: But more immigrant rights hang in the balance in Washington,
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: and Kelly is going to explain one major case awaiting argument.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: And finally,
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: we have two developing stories deeply tied to the White House
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: and its political strategy.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: We'll get into why ICE is pushing a narrative of immigrants voting illegally in U.S.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: elections,
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: as well as why Chinese dissidents seeking asylum in
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: the United States are finding themselves behind bars.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Stick with us.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: Matt, this has been another rough week of violence at the hands of ICE agents.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Can you give us the latest?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_01: So as we said earlier on Sunday,
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Wilbur Rafael Garces Perez was shot very near to his spine
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: while he was delivering food for people in Austin, Texas.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: As far as I know,
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: this is the third shooting involving immigration agents in Texas during
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: the second Trump administration.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I believe it's the 20th person to have been shot by ICE in that same time period.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: What we know is that as he was driving along in his car, he was sideswiped by an ICE vehicle.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: It appears that he did not understand that this was a police vehicle.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Once again, ICE using unmarked vehicles, unannounced, it's resulted in someone dying.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll get into the repetitive nature of these cases as we discuss this.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: But because he had no idea what had happened,
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: and according to an interpreter who was able to reach him in the hospital,
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  SPEAKER_01: He thought that this was merely an aggressive driver,
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: and so he attempted to pull his vehicle away and come to the side and deal with
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: the accidents, at which point ICE agents shot him from behind.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: It endangers the officers,
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: it endangers the public, it endangers the person that they are attempting to detain.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how,
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: but even though the bullet launched into his back and landed very near his spine,
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: in fact, it has not yet been removed as far as we know, he managed to survive.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: He was then taken to this detention facility in Pierceville, Texas,
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: the South Texas Immigration Processing Center,
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  SPEAKER_01: and had to go to the hospital twice,
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: but he's not being allowed to stay in the hospital.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: He basically goes there,
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: he gets discharged,
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, acute treatment and then has to go back into detention.
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  SPEAKER_01: And a lawyer representing him said that they're trying to prevent his deportation
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: while he's still recovering.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: But they basically are only able to guarantee that he will stay in the country
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  SPEAKER_01: until September 30th when they have a hearing scheduled with a judge.
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  SPEAKER_01: After that, it's anybody's guess what's going to happen to him.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so my question here is,
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: were ICE agents wearing ICE gear and an ICE uniform,
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  SPEAKER_00: or were they in civilian clothing and just deeply confusing people around them?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's a good question.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: They were in ICE uniforms.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: However,
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  SPEAKER_01: the officer who shot Bettis,
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  SPEAKER_01: he was brand new to the force and he did not turn on his body cam.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: So once again, I just feel like we're repeating ourselves over and over again here.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Body cams are part of the solution, but there are so many problems with them.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: One of them being that officers can decide whether or not they want to turn them on.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, the agent who shot him was wearing a uniform,
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: was wearing a body camera as far as we know, but did not turn it on.
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  SPEAKER_01: There is video from immediately after the incident when another agent arrives
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: on scene as they're making the arrest.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we can see actually...
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  SPEAKER_01: It's a surprising vehicle because the scene appears quite calm.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: And even though Perez is obviously severely injured and there's
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: a pretty gruesome shot of the bullet wound in his back,
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  SPEAKER_01: he appears quite calm, probably in shock, having just been shot.
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  SPEAKER_01: They were not following the rules here for sure, but he was wearing identifying uniform.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so as you had mentioned previously,
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: he is the 20th person to be shot by ICE officers this year alone.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: And what I find quite striking about this is that when we think about
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: the body cameras,
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  SPEAKER_00: we can't keep thinking about it as a golden ticket because even
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: though they are distributed,
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  SPEAKER_00: even though ICE agents may have them, They may not be turned on.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: They may be edited or doctored by the ICE agency itself.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: We already know that ICE is not tracking ICE-related deaths anymore.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: So when it comes to justice and accountability behind these shootings,
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: it's something that is incredibly and increasingly unable to be achieved.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Let me respond to that because I think that's an important point to continue discussing.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, when ICE releases information, it does so only if it is in the interest of the agency.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so like we've talked about frequently,
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: third-party deportation tracker has been an important tool for us,
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: as well as LA Taco's running list of ICE-involved deaths,
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: which I highly encourage people to check out.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: We'll link to it as well.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: It is the most expansive documentation of these incidents that we have access to.
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  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, with The body cams, they are by no means a silver bullet.
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  SPEAKER_01: I am still very split on them.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: I still don't know if I really support a lot of body cams because
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: in incidents like this, they don't help at all.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: And at their worst,
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  SPEAKER_01: they can be used to create a massive surveillance tool that identifies all sorts
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: of people who should not be under surveillance.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many factors to this that are reminiscent of the last four or five times
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: that ICE has shot and killed someone,
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: whether they were the target of an arrest,
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: as Mr. Bettis was in this case, or whether they were bystanders or protesters.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: They lie about the use of vehicles.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: They lie about the use of force.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: They attempt to prevent the release of the names of officers as well
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: as video footage that might be damning of those officers.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so what are we left to conclude other than we can't trust a word they say?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't think anybody listening to this podcast would trust a word ICE says,
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: but that's the reality of the case.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And before we move on to the other instance of ICE violence over in Evanston,
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Illinois, I want to underscore what you just said.
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  SPEAKER_00: We have had a wonderful guest on the show, Ava Sasani.
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  SPEAKER_00: She works for The Trace,
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  SPEAKER_00: and she specifically looks at ICE-involved shootings all over the country.
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  SPEAKER_00: And she actually came up with a different number than the one that
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  SPEAKER_00: the media has been widely reporting.
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  SPEAKER_00: So the trace has identified 31 instances in which immigration agents shot at people
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  SPEAKER_00: since the start of Trump's second term.
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  SPEAKER_00: They also found another 49 incidents in which agents held bystanders,
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  SPEAKER_00: protesters or other people at gunpoint under questionable circumstances.
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  SPEAKER_00: In addition, nine people were killed in these incidents and another 15 were injured.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so we will go ahead and link that particular data point from the trace
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  SPEAKER_00: in our newsletter for folks to more deeply dive into why their number is
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: so much higher and what they define as an ICE-involved shooting in that data.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now, I want to move on to the Evanston, Illinois case.
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  SPEAKER_00: What is the latest here?
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  SPEAKER_00: What do you know so far?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes, this is a case of mistaken identity, which might be the worst part.
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  SPEAKER_01: But basically, ICE agents in Evanston, Illinois accosted a man.
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  SPEAKER_01: He's not been identified in the media.
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  SPEAKER_01: We don't know what his name is.
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  SPEAKER_01: They beat him severely.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: They beat him severely.
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  SPEAKER_01: Upon ascertaining that he was a U.S. citizen, they ended up leaving him.
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  SPEAKER_01: But
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  SPEAKER_01: One man named Miguel Olivares,
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: who was on a break from a restaurant he worked at nearby,
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  SPEAKER_01: managed to record part of the incident.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it shows federal officers pinning the person they were attempting to arrest
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: against the floor, hitting him in the face, being very rough with him.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then once they realize he was a U.S. citizen, they get up and flee.
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  SPEAKER_01: They don't help him take care of his injuries.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: They don't identify.
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  SPEAKER_01: Identify themselves so that he has some recourse to seek justice.
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  SPEAKER_01: And instead,
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: it was this worker,
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  SPEAKER_01: Miguel Olivares, who called 911 and got the victim to the hospital.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: We don't really know much about his status right now.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: We don't really know much about...
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how he's doing or where he is,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: but basically ICE's response to this is that they were attempting
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  SPEAKER_01: to identify someone who resembled the person who they ended up beating the shit out
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: of.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: And when this person who is a U.S.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: End quote.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: So they...
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Gloss over this entire part of severely assaulting him and only went down.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Evanston police chief said that there was no local law enforcement involved.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: They're trying their best to determine what happened here.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think in any functional society,
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: these agents would be arrested and tried for criminal assault,
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: for aggravated assault with deadly weapons.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: And yet,
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: because of qualified immunity in the United States,
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: and we've seen people do much worse.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen people take lives who are ICE agents.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: No one's been held accountable yet.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I would like to point everyone to the ICE slogan, just out of sheer irony.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: The ICE slogan is officially, quote, protecting national security and upholding public safety.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: And funnily enough,
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: the Homeland Security Investigations Division uses the motto,
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: honor, service, and integrity.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I heavily question if any of the values underscored
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: in those mottos were actually upheld in this particular instance.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so we have never been able to get in touch with ICE officials who want to hop
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: onto the podcast,
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: but I would very much welcome them to talk about how Upholding public safety
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: and upholding honor,
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: service,
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: and integrity was honored in this particular instance in Evanston, Illinois.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: I would highly doubt they would want to talk about that,
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: but the invitation is open to them if they listen to this podcast.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Always standing invitation for any ICE spokespeople to come on and attempt
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: to defend their actions.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, let's take a quick break there.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to look ahead after the break at the Supreme Court's next term.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the cases hanging in the balance.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: This year has seen the court fundamentally reshape the immigration experience
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: and apparatus of the United States,
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: most prominently with the end of temporary protected status,
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: but in smaller ways and profound ways all around the docket.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Kelly's going to tell us what to look forward to next year.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, guys.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: Kelly here.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so proud to say that we have just passed our six-month mark on This Week On ICE,
• 12:37
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• 12:39
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• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: a community of listeners by 36% in the last three months alone.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: We have also received incredible news.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: We just heard that we got a grant from Gold House to report overseas.
• 12:54
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• 12:57
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• 13:00
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• 13:04
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• 13:08
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• 13:13
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• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you again.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to This Week On ICE.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: We are going to dive into the Supreme Court term and what's up next.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Kelly, what are we looking at for the next year in the Supreme Court?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it was only yesterday that the Supreme Court of
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: the United States ended their 2025 to 2026 term.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: And during that time, we saw
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Deeply consequential decisions that impacted the waking reality of immigrants
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: and undocumented citizens in this country,
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: including birthright citizenship,
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: temporary protected status,
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: and the ease in which people can file an asylum case in this country.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: But now already in just a matter of weeks on October 5th,
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: they're going to start their 2026 to 2027 term.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And weigh in on a number of different immigration-related cases.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: So only one right now is really on our radar in which the U.S.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: is proposing a new stand-in migrant detention case to the Supreme Court.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's called Janalo v. D.C. And this is what the case is centered on.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: They want to put into question immigration detention without bond.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: And they want to question At what point, if any,
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: certain non-citizens have the right to a bond hearing during a lengthy detention
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: and what the government must do or not do to justify continued detention?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm understanding you correctly,
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: one potential result of this case would be affirming the current policy of ICE,
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: which is that they...
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Want mandatory detention for everyone and do not think anybody
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: that they detain should be allowed to go out on bond,
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: even if they're nonviolent, have no history.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Is that basically one of the worst possible case result of this?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: That is correct.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: The U.S.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: government says that we can detain people that we find
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: that their immigration status is up to question.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: We can detain them for as long as we want and we don't have to prove why they're there.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: And the heart of this argument in Janalo v.D.C.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: is actually you need to prove why they're there and why they're there for
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: a prolonged period of time, prolonged being over one week in detention.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: And as we have seen under this administration,
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: ICE has detained an average of 66,000 people per day.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: That was data points from July 2026.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And there was a height in mid-January 2026 where more than 73,000 people have been detained.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: And these are prolonged detention,
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: things that are, you know, Detention that lasts more than one to two weeks.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Detention that has been lasting for months, even years.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the only way that immigrants have been able to get out of detention is
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: if they volunteer to self-deport.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: They are deported.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: In very,
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: very rare instances,
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: they're able to file a court-ordered release in which their lawyer files
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: a habeas corpus petition to challenge the lawfulness of their client's detention
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: in federal courts.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that is the main argument against the U.S.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: government's I guess the U.S.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: government's presentation,
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: these habeas corpus petitions,
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: which have been,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: filed in exponentially higher rates under this administration,
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: basically argues you need to prove why you're prolonged,
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: why you are giving prolonged detention to any given person
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: in ICE detention right now.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: This is something that Robin Nice brought up when she was on recently.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: I asked her, like, basically, is there any functional system for habeas corpus?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: And she said it's completely broken down and that the courts are completely overloaded.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: On top of that,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: I also want to point out that there's reporting this week that indicates
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: that ICE is not only moving people from facility to facility frequently.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked about it a lot.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: They are removing from their own system a number of detention sites so that
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: when someone gets moved,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: it will not show up in their system at all,
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: which means then that lawyers representing the person that has moved to
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: a different facility do not know where their client is and cannot file
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: a habeas petition in the correct district that they need to do so because these need
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: to be filed in the place where the person is being held.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: So they're trying to do an end run around the law ahead of this SCOTUS case that we mentioned.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's simply not following the law,
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: not telling lawyers where their clients are being detained
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: and moving people willy-nilly simply to avoid accountability.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Constantly, constant avoidance of accountability.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: And there are two things that really complicate this is that one,
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: In moving an immigrant or an undocumented citizen,
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: or in this case,
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: there are many asylum seekers in ICE detention facilities all over the country.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: For that specific jurisdiction, it's really a game of whackable in this sense.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: This is the other piece of this argument that the U.S. government is presenting.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: So the Trump administration has sought the justices
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: to address district court's authority over these habeas petitions, right?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: He wants to basically say that district courts do not have the authority to weigh in
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: on this, that it must always go to the Supreme Court.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so in complicating the framework of this argument,
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: he's basically delaying the potential for a ruling
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: that can become very consequential for the U.S.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: government by saying, oh, district courts can't rule on this at all.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: We have to wait until a much higher authority weighs in on this.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: It makes it all the more easy for the government
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: to continue these prolonged detentions of immigrants in
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: which we have seen exponentially more under this administration.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's part of a larger story about the complication of the asylum
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: and immigration system such that it is essentially impossible to claim asylum
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: and essentially impossible to get out of detention, which should be illegal.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think it is legal.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: Personally, no lawyer.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, we'll have to see how that plays out of the Supreme Court in the coming year.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then one more data point to add,
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: just a button to the end of this argument,
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: is that since the start of the Trump administration second term,
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: ICE has booked a total of 591,385 people into detention.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: So people have come and gone from detention facilities within that timeframe.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: But if we're thinking about over 591,000 people in ICE custody,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: That is larger than the entire population of Atlanta.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so these habeas filings are really the only kind of the last resort or
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: the final domino that can fall to prevent somebody from being in ICE detention.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: And the fact that there are so many people in detention,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: it's really completely putting the immigration justice system into a chokehold.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I think about the Supreme Court decision,
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: If they were to weigh against the favor of the U.S.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: government,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: it opens up that bottleneck exponentially to provide more justice for people
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: in these detention facilities that may be in prolonged detention.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to be watching this very closely to see how SCOTUS is going to weigh in.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for looking into that, Kelly.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Before we conclude this episode,
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: you and I, Matt, both have two very curious cases that we're looking into.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: These are both very embryonic in nature.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I wanted to ask you first,
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: you're looking into a story of why Chinese dissidents seeking asylum in
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: the United States are finding themselves behind bars.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: So tell us what you're finding.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: So this has happened to a number of people in that circumstance.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: And what I really want to focus in on is a man named Wu Xiaoping, who was...
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Part of a dissent movement in China,
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: he fled China in 2019 after attending a meeting for human rights defenders in Xiamen
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: in southern China.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: Many of the people who attended that meeting,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: including two of China's most prominent human rights lawyers,
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: Ding Jiaxi and Xu Jiung, were imprisoned after this meeting.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: Wu managed to get out.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: He got to the United States on a tourist visa and then filed for asylum.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to emphasize to everyone,
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: once again,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: if you want An example of someone doing it the quote unquote right way,
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: that is the right way.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: That is the way that the asylum process is supposed to work.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: He clearly has a reasonable belief that he could be arrested and subject
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: to severe conditions in China if he were to return there.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: He filed all the proper proceedings to remain in the United States.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: He has a pending asylum case.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Nonetheless, in July, he was detained by ICE officers in Mount Holy Springs in Pennsylvania.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: He presented them with proof of his pending asylum application and proof
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: that he had entered the country legally.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Nonetheless...
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: ICE arrested him, took him to a detention facility in Pennsylvania where he remains.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: And he is far from the only person with this story.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Multiple people who have dissented against China,
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: against Xi Jinping,
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: against the Communist Party of China and come to
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: the United States are finding themselves in the exact same circumstances.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Just to keep on your radar,
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: this coincides with the announcement of Xi Jinping's visit to the United States,
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: which will happen this week.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Xi Jinping,
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure everybody knows,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: but in case you don't know, Xi Jinping is the president of China.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: He is going to be in Washington.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: He'll be sitting down with Donald Trump.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: And my suspicion,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: as a longtime reporter on China,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: someone who,
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: even before I reported on China, lived in and interacted with the country...
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: I suspect that this is a way to signal an intent to give Beijing something it wants
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: in exchange for help.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of turning these people into a negotiating chip.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if one of the results of this upcoming meeting between Xi
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: and Trump will be sending back a lot of these dissidents to China,
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: where they will be detained,
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: interrogated, and honestly, who knows what happens to them.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: And this tit for tat is something that has been expressed abundantly when we think
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: about the third country deportation agreements that Trump has And so in the context
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: of this agreement with China and how there is a possible tit for tat in
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: a very different context, it's unsurprising.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it's something that I think is going to be very curious
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: as we see this story develop,
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: especially as the UN General Assembly continues this week.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up the third party deportation thing,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: because that's actually a crucial part of this.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, the U.S. might not be willing to send these people directly back to China.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: That looks terrible.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: But what they've been willing to do in a lot of other cases is,
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: maybe they send them to Ghana or Chad or,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: you know, some other country that they have a third party agreement with.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then that country sends them back to China.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it might be this apparatus
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: of third party deportations helps advance these geopolitical goals vis-a-vis China
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: as well.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's a whole other poker game, basically.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, we got to move on.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: But Kelly, you've got another story that you're putting on the to watch list.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: What's this about ICE talking a lot about immigrants voting illegally in US elections?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: This is crazy and wild and curious all at once.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: So we are expecting midterm elections in November.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the Trump administration has desperately tried to implant this idea
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: that there is voter fraud rampant across the United States.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: And because of that,
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: we need to have ICE agents,
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: maybe even National Guard at polling places across the country during
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: the midterm elections in November.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: So So they identified two people.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: One Guatemalan undocumented immigrant and a Filipino undocumented immigrant.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: And they didn't go into any particular detail as to how they were able to vote and
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: where they specifically voted.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I find that very curious and very flimsy.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's because it's all part of this much larger narrative
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: that they're desperately building to be sure that they could bring ICE to the polls
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: and have executive power over these elections,
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: which, by the way, is against our own constitution.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: The states run the elections.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's the way it has always been.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: That is the way that they remain secure.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's very decentralization has saved us from a lot of headache in the past.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: So do we know anything about beyond the obvious headlines here?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Do we know anything about the areas they're targeting specifically?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: Are they trying to get into battleground states and persuade voters of this issue?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because we've seen the polling and like while immigration enforcement tends
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: to pull well, ICE's actions tend not to.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have any information on that?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that is an excellent question that I would love to look into probably
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: beyond this particular episode.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: But to really underscore the point that you just mentioned is
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: that Trump backed candidates are no longer winning.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: They're kind of being maligned as an unpopular, unviable candidate.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think Trump is getting nervous.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: When I looked into the specific undocumented immigrants that they identified
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: in these press mailers, I couldn't find anything on them.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't find any case that substantiates them illegally voting in elections.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Not to say that that can't be true.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: It can be possible.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: But statistically, it's unviable.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: It is so rare.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: and when you look at the data points from different think tanks that kind of run
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: the gamut of political leadings,
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: they all kind of align with this consistency that voter fraud is exceedingly rare
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: in this country.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Look at the Heritage Foundation.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: They have a nationwide database of alleged instances of voter fraud in the United States.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: They have only identified 99 total cases of suspected non-citizen voting going back
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: to the year 2000.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: Let's pause there because we need to give some context.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: The Heritage Foundation is a rabidly right-wing,
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: authoritarian think tank that has pushed Project 2025 all
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: of these massive Trump plans.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: And even they, who have every incentive to count every little...
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: Anything they could possibly count as suspected voter fraud.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: They could only find less than 100 cases over the course of a quarter century in
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: which literally billions of votes were cast in that time.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it is a non-issue.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Even the people who want to make it an issue cannot possibly find a way to make it an issue.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: And yet it's being pushed forward.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: And let's look at one that's a little bit more of the ilk of a center-right
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: or maybe more traditional conservative,
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: someone that isn't far-right or isn't aligned with the Heritage Foundation.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: The Cato Institute published in February a data set as a result of investigations
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: into voter fraud,
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: and they found that non-citizen voting is, quote, virtually non-existent, end quote.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: That is a significant phrase for the Cato Institute to publish.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: And they concluded that false claims of fraudulent voters are, quote,
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: an affront to our democracy and to all those who work to deliver free
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: and fair elections, end quote.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: So for the Trump administration and the Department of Homeland Security to find
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: that there are two instances of voter fraud in less than a week,
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: I find to be statistically impossible and does not fit the narrative of think tanks
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: that have been researching and investigating Voter fraud for generations.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: So find that very curious as we look into midterm elections in November.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I just I'm a Cato Institute fan.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not necessarily politically aligned with them,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: but I find a lot of the research they do very interesting.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: And just think back to like.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: when I was first starting to become politically conscious and politically aware
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: in sort of high school,
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: maybe a little earlier, the Cato Institute was considered quite fringe, right?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's a libertarian, kind of an extreme position in a lot of cases.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: And now they are the reasonable voice in the room in conservative circles, right?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: They're the ones who actually bother to look up statistics and have to defend
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: the words that they use to make their arguments.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: So shout out to the Cato Institute.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Glad you guys are on this case.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: we're going to absolutely keep looking for more stories pushing this narrative
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: of illegal voting in U.S. elections.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, Matt.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that is it for us on this episode of This Week On ICE.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for listening.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: We encourage you to share this episode and this show with friends, family,
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: and colleagues if you find that they think the immigration story is important
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: and consequential, just like we do.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: Look out for yourself and your neighbors.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: See you next week.