Latest / Drive with John Perlman / State Security Agency awards media access to Dlomo-Mshotola state capture trial

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State Security Agency awards media access to Dlomo-Mshotola state capture trial · Drive with John Perlman

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Right, let's focus on this. It's a very, very interesting
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: matter before the court. It's in the Gauteng. High Court
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: in Pretoria, and the opening exchanges in the trial of
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: two former senior officials at the state security agency. The
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: opening exchanges have been very much focused on whether there
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: can be any coverage of this particular trial at all. Initially,
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  Speaker 1: the judge ruled no media access whatsoever will threaten national
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  Speaker 1: security as there was evidence laid around charges of theft, fraud,
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: and forgery. And the people in the dock, by the way,
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  Speaker 1: the former head of the state security agency, Tulani Glomo,
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  Speaker 1: and one of the investigators in that structure at the SSA,
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  Speaker 1: Patrick Mshotola. I beg your pardon. And the charges are theft, fraud,
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  Speaker 1: and forgery. So, the media will be allowed in. So,
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  Speaker 1: who are these two men? What's at issue? And what
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  Speaker 1: might we learn from this case? Peter Dutoy at News24,
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  Speaker 1: where he is... assistant editor, has been, alongside his colleagues,
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  Speaker 1: been looking into this matter for a long time and
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  Speaker 1: have written in particular about Mr. Dlomo. Peter Dutoy, good afternoon.
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  Speaker 1: Why does this case matter? And with the blanket ban
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  Speaker 1: on coverage now lifted, what might we learn in the court?
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  Speaker 1: Good afternoon to you.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: Good afternoon, John. It's an important matter. It's an important case.
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  Speaker 2: It is one of the most significant state capture-related cases
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  Speaker 2: we've had and seen thus far. Tulani Glomor was head
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  Speaker 2: of a special operations unit at the state security agency.
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  Speaker 2: During the time of Jacob Zuma's presidency, he used his
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  Speaker 2: position to help repurpose, revamp, and redirect the SSA operations
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  Speaker 2: to function and operate and execute intelligence duties at the
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  Speaker 2: service or at the behest and in service of one man,
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  Speaker 2: Jacob Zuma. This has come out previously. You'd remember in
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  Speaker 2: 2018 when Cyril Ramaphosa became president, he appointed a high-level
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  Speaker 2: panel which was tasked to investigate events at state security
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  Speaker 2: agency during the time of Jacob Zuma. They found that
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  Speaker 2: the state security agency was enormously politicized, was pressed into
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  Speaker 2: service of certain ANC factions, particularly the Abt faction of
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  Speaker 2: Jacob Zuma. During the state capture inquiry led by former
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  Speaker 2: Chief Justice Raymond Zondo, there was also a significant work
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  Speaker 2: stream that looked at SSA and found and identified various
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  Speaker 2: intelligence operations which were launched and executed by Tulani Glormore's
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  Speaker 2: Special Operations Unit. Now, he is alongside his colleague Patrick
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  Speaker 2: Chitola that you mentioned earlier. is now standing on our
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  Speaker 2: facing charges of fraud, theft, uttering and other charges related
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  Speaker 2: to a falsified contract to the tune of 12 million rands.
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  Speaker 2: So the importance of this trial, John, is that it
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  Speaker 2: gives us insight into how SSA operated and worked under
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  Speaker 2: the state capture years under Jacob Zuma. It will give
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  Speaker 2: us insight into how it was politicized and more importantly,
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  Speaker 2: how resources were extracted and diverted in service of Jacob Zuma.
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  Speaker 1: In terms of the eventual agreement that there should be
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  Speaker 1: and can be coverage of the trial, the blanket ban,
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  Speaker 1: what was the motivation for it?
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  Speaker 2: John, I simply cannot overstate the importance of the agreement
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  Speaker 2: and the agreement reached between the parties this morning in
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  Speaker 2: the High Court in Pretoria and the eventual order that
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  Speaker 2: was agreed upon. Initially, an order was granted.
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  Speaker 2: After an application was made by the National Prosecuting Authority,
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  Speaker 2: who is prosecuting Tulani Glomwa and his colleague. That order
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  Speaker 2: was granted earlier this month. The trial started last week
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  Speaker 2: with no one being notified that it has commenced. No
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  Speaker 2: one knew that it was happening. And we only came
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  Speaker 2: upon it last Friday, which led to this legal wrangling
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  Speaker 2: and this legal process which commenced last Friday and ended
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  Speaker 2: with the order this morning. The SSA intervened earlier this
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  Speaker 2: week when the media, Media24, Amabungane, Daily Maverick, the Campaign
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  Speaker 2: for Free Expression, and the Mail and Guardian said we
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  Speaker 2: need access. indicated in various court papers, John, that they
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  Speaker 2: want a complete and total ban on the media and
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  Speaker 2: the public to attend the court case at all. No
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  Speaker 2: access to documents, no access to testimony aren't allowed in
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  Speaker 2: the room. So it was quite draconian and it was
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  Speaker 2: quite a far-reaching request from them to the court. The
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  Speaker 2: reason that they put forward was that they are afraid
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  Speaker 2: that intelligence secrets might be ventilated in court, that intelligence processes, procedures, statecraft,
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  Speaker 2: tradecraft rather, might be exposed and that it can lead
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  Speaker 2: to the endangering of intelligence operations, endangering of people's lives
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  Speaker 2: and so on. But in the end, I think the
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  Speaker 2: case law was against the SSA. Their legal advisors also
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  Speaker 2: indicated that they did advise their client, the Minister in
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  Speaker 2: the presidency, among others, that this was not the route
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  Speaker 2: to go. And I'm very pleased that we were able
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  Speaker 2: to strike a balance between keeping a balance between recognizing
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  Speaker 2: the demands that national security places on the court and
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  Speaker 2: the SSA, but also the public interest. in a major
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  Speaker 2: state capture case like this. So as you said earlier,
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  Speaker 2: we will have access to the trial, to some documents.
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  Speaker 2: We may appeal that still in future, but at least
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  Speaker 2: we've got reporters in court now and they are able
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  Speaker 2: to follow the case.
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  Speaker 1: So, Peter, I mean, you spoke about this, you know,
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  Speaker 1: the necessity of this kind of secrecy. Ironically, doesn't that
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  Speaker 1: go to the heart of what the trial is about?
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  Speaker 1: Because if I think back on Jacques Poe's book, The
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  Speaker 1: President's Keepers, in which he detailed... the way in which
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  Speaker 1: that veil of secrecy was used to loot large amounts
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  Speaker 1: of money. And I don't think anyone has successfully sued
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  Speaker 1: Jacques for what he wrote. I mean, isn't that part
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  Speaker 1: of the problem that you can always invoke the necessity
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  Speaker 1: for security, for secrecy around these things? And that, yes,
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  Speaker 1: while that may be valid, it's been used actually for
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  Speaker 1: conduct that may well be proved to be criminal.
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  Speaker 2: Well, absolutely, John. I couldn't put it better myself. The
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  Speaker 2: fact is that that lawman is co-accused. We're absolutely at
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  Speaker 2: the center of repurposing and retooling the SSA as a
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  Speaker 2: tool of state capture. And the public has a right
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  Speaker 2: to know exactly what happened there. Now, it's Very easy
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  Speaker 2: for the SS. And I would argue that the reason
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  Speaker 2: why they wanted this blanket ban, John, is because they're
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  Speaker 2: afraid of what might come out in the court. They
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  Speaker 2: are afraid of what Tulani Glomo might testify. They're afraid
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  Speaker 2: of Tulani Glomo and others identifying themselves. state capture of
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  Speaker 2: actors who are still deployed at the state security agency,
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  Speaker 2: who are still busy engaging in illegal, unlawful, and nefarious
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  Speaker 2: intelligence operations. So I think there's an enormous fear at
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  Speaker 2: the SSA, I think in the presidency as well, and
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  Speaker 2: in the ANC, of what might come out, what dirty
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  Speaker 2: linen might be washed in court. So I think they're afraid,
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  Speaker 2: they don't want this to come out, and I think
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  Speaker 2: the excuse of national security is way too easy for them,
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  Speaker 2: so that's why we're happy that the court has now
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  Speaker 2: laid down directives through which if they want to keep
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  Speaker 2: something secret, if they don't want something reported on, there
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  Speaker 2: is a legal process that they have to follow and
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  Speaker 2: the media and the public may be heard.
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  Speaker 1: Peter Dutoy, thank you. Assistant Editor at News24. The trial
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  Speaker 1: will proceed with the media present. We'll be very interested
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  Speaker 1: to see what comes out. 702 Drive.