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ENCORE: Healing Mould Biotoxin Illness with Amie Skilton · Wellness by Designs - Practitioner Podcast

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: This is Wellness by Design, and I'm your host, Andrew Whitfield Cook.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us today.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Today we'll be chatting with Amy Skelton, a naturopath who specializes in a very complex sort of satellite of symptoms and that's to do with mould biotoxin illness.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: So welcome to Wellness by Design's Amy.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: How are you?
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Good morning, andrew.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: I am great, so nice to be chatting with you about this today.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: It's so wonderful to be chatting with you because you are always and I have to say this, you are always so giving of yourself.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Indeed, you have helped me personally with regards to public speaking and things like that about centering yourself and being there for the audience, for who you're presenting to, and so I honour you with that, with just how much you give to people, to not just your patients, but also practitioners as well.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Thank you for your work.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad to be bringing my experience and mould and mould illness here today because I think, with the growing awareness is wonderful but unfortunately there's so much that's misunderstood about it and it's not part of the general curriculum and education, either in allopathic or naturopathic.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I feel very lucky to be here today chatting with you and raising awareness with your audience.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: And I've got to say it's an experience I do not envy you of.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: It's something I have trouble grasping.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: I've got to be honest, because there's so many rabbit holes which patients can fall down and it can affect in so many multitude of ways.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: It's not just a presentation like a rash that means that disease.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: It doesn't present like that.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: So I guess this is where we need to start.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: Without you know a whole.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: It's not just a seminar, this is a course.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: But without going into that complexity, how do you prioritise treatment of patients?
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Gosh.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: So there's several stages that you have to consider with treatment and primarily, if we can base it into two categories, you've got while they're still being exposed to a water damage building or a sick building and once they're out of it.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: And the unfortunate truth is, whilst someone is still being exposed to a water damage building and all of you know the microorganisms and the toxic stew that's found inside, your options are pretty limited and in fact, many of the strategies that we would use to move someone through the ladder of healing from CERS can have a counterproductive effect if someone is still being exposed.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: So, even though it's a very complex, multi system, acute, chronically acute condition, it's the hardest part is actually getting away from inflammatory triggers and that's really due to the prevalence of water damage buildings in the western world.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: You know, in the US it's around 50%.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: I am strongly suspecting that's the case in Australia.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: I can tell you from house hunting in Sydney on one occasion that 93.5% of properties I examined for my own you know, personal potential residency were visibly water damaged and 80% of the time mold is not visible.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: So the hardest part is actually getting someone into an environment where they can heal, particularly if it's their workplace or it's their workplace and their home, because you're sort of getting hit from both sides in that regard.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: So the priority is always getting into a clean and healthy environment, which doesn't necessarily mean mold free.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: You know there's an argument that mold is everywhere, and yes it is, but it's a toxicogenic mold and a water damage building we're trying to avoid and then from there people can actually move through the protocol for healing.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: So a lot of people jump to oh, what can I take?
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: You know, what can I do?
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: What diet should I follow?
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: But I can tell you from personal experience and professional, the results are incredibly limited whilst you're still being exposed, in fact almost imperceptible in many patients.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: The other priority, which is maybe not so much about treatment is, but really accurate diagnosis, is choosing the right biomarkers to test and doing them in the right order in order to arrive at a diagnosis so that you can confidently move forward with treatment but without financially devastating someone.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: I did all of the blood biomarkers myself, bar MMP 9, and it was $2000.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: So you know, for some people $2000 might be better spent on a tent and, you know, getting out into nature and away from the mold and actually just see and maybe some basic binders and detoxifying, you know, agents just to see if there's an improvement, rather than wasting we're not wasting all that money, but spending all that money to arrive at a diagnosis and then not having funds left to actually get away from the mold or, you know, purchase some of those things that are actually really helpful.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: So it's a as a clinician you know for and clinicians that are listening we're always weighing up that, I guess the return on investment for clients, but certainly for anyone listening to this who suspects they might be dealing with mold illness, that's something you want to really work with your practitioner on.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: Also, just to you know, be selective so that you can get enough information to move forward, but without overdoing it where you could be spending your money elsewhere.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: So that's a huge issue, and particularly when we've got such a dichotomous country in Australia.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: You know the fire and the flood.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: Wow, not four years ago, basically, the eastern seaboard was on fire.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: Now the eastern seaboard is in flood.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: And when we're talking about mold damage, there's a real conundrum about, well, where do you go to to escape it?
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: Because the next place is moldy.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: You spoke just about buying a tent.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: Tents get moldy when they're packed up.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: La, la, la la.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: So you get onto this treadmill, or, yeah, treadmill of how do you escape the moldy environment?
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: Should we instead be looking at mitigating, as you said, toxogenic mold or avoiding toxogenic mold?
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: That's a yeah.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: That is definitely something that must be considered really carefully and it depends on you know where the moisture's come from, what toxogenic molds are present in the home, whether someone has the HLA predisposition, genetically speaking, or not, and also just how bad how bad the home is in general.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: So in some cases and also that's made more complicated by if you're a tenant renting a property versus someone who owns a property so if you own it and you have the money, you can get a medical grade remediation done, but that is a huge undertaking and you, you know you also have to find somewhere else to stay while that happens and sadly, it's actually not a guarantee that your home will be tolerable once it's done.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it is, and that's great, but it involves often gutting a home, sometimes even replacing structural elements if they're made from timber and literally starting over again, like burning all of your stuff and then buying again.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: Now, if you've been exposed to toxicants for too long and that includes, you know, microbial toxins in a water damage building you can then develop secondary, multiple chemical sensitivity and then you have to be mindful of what paints you're putting in, what building materials you're using, the offgassing of new furnishings the whole thing can be, even if financially it's a doable project, it can be really tricky.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: But it is the devil, you know, and I think oftentimes it's a good option to explore, especially when you can, you know, upgrade the health of your home by doing so.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: But if you're a tenant, unfortunately, although we have actually we've just officially adopted the ANSI double ICRC standards, as far as you know, mold remediation goes, but they were the standards that we referred to, without any of our own, but unfortunately it's not a legally enforceable standard.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: And so what I see and this is one of the areas I work most in is with people who are renting a property, there isn't any way to force the landlord to remediate to the grade that you might need for your health, in fact, remediate almost at all.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: Victoria have recently, in recent years, improved their tenancy standards and there are now everything's been upgraded a little bit.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: But what I'm finding is commonly the best you can hope for is breaking the lease with no penalty, maybe getting some compensation and then moving on.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: But if you don't know what to look for in a new property, some people end up, more often than not, out of the frying pan, into the fire, into another water damage building, and so it's actually it's the housing crisis people aren't aware of, and certainly in certain regions, like where I am, in the Northern Rivers, where there's elevated humidity almost year round, most properties are impacted to some degree or another just because of the microclimate, and that's not taking into account any potential flooding, maybe roof leaks that have happened, burst pipes, degraded waterproof membranes.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: So you know there is a whole group of people who are living in their cars or living out of tents, who are doing so because, you know, they've either been financially ruined from this experience or they just cannot find anywhere to stay that doesn't make them sick, and indeed even the basics of life, like the shopping center in my local area, multiple roof leaks and, ironically, the health shop is the worst affected.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: I can't stay, I can't actually browse in the health shop without getting sick, and that was before it got flooded earlier this year.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, even picking up medications or going into a health shop or getting food, like you know, thankfully to COVID click, you know, and delivery to the boot is a thing now, but life can become extremely difficult.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: You know, people buying clothes or maybe a mattress that's been stored in a warehouse that's, you know, been leaking and it's moldy.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: You know I've had one client the most unwell human I've ever supported through this and it was complicated by Lyme also.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: But she was actually in a coma for years and bedridden for almost a decade and you know we had to coordinate a trip to.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: You know even the chemical sensitivity in the state she lived in.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: She had to leave and we coordinated a trip to Tasmania but trying to find an Airbnb that wasn't water damaged, she had to send through, you know, sleeping bags and clothes to off gas for a month prior to a friend's place, which also wasn't the best, and you know this is how sick.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: This is an extreme example.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: But she was so unwell that the smell of coffee would trigger seizures and of course she was flying from WA where there were two rounds of you know refreshments on the plane.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: So we had to, you know, work out separate oxygen.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: You know supply and anyway it was just.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: It can become a nightmare, and so one of the hardest things that I see is people who are reluctant and I get it because I have been there but reluctant to take action when they first become aware of it, and I can give you so many examples where people have been unwell.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: Then I've said I've identified there's a mold problem.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: But of course, with the rental crisis, we're currently in that's sort of like oh, it's not a good time to move, there's nothing out there, and then a year later they're even sicker and can't even tolerate you know a manmade building at all anymore.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: So it's a very distressing thing to navigate on top of feeling like death and like nothing's functioning properly neurologically or physically.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: So I certainly hope our chat today I don't mean to scare anyone, but knowing the you know the signs, the symptoms, the early warning signs, maybe what to test for can, even though it can feel very overwhelming, can honestly save you so much time and life force and stress in the long run if you can just you know start taking small steps and you know.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: That's also why I created not to plug my course, but just for one second.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: I created a course to teach people how to prevent mold at home, because so much of the mold that I see is because people don't know how to manage moisture in the home or don't know what the right action to take is after a leak or a flood, and so, inadvertently, we are making our homes sick by accident because we don't know better, and that is just such a shame.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: And everyone's just hopping from one water damage building to another.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: You know certainly getting to that point, so it's tricky, andrew.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: And, of course, you mentioned binders before, and this is where I, you know I get confused.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Or is there overlap, you know, with SIBO and gastrointestinal disorders where, if you're not going to spend thousands on testing, where would you start with therapy?
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: Would you start with herbs and nutrients that build up emotional resistance?
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Would you look at the immune system?
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: Would you look at the gastrointestinal system?
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: Because 60 to 70 percent of your immune system resides there.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: Where do you poke the bear first?
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: So part of what determines the way forward is whether someone has the genetic tendency or not, and so you know I'll usually check for the HLA status, do a VCS test, which is free, and then allow what their symptomatology is telling you about where the inflammation is affecting them to guide treatment.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: But certainly, mycotoxins damage the gastrointestinal lining and your microbiome.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: So some sort of gut support, even something as simple as you know, colostrum and probiotics would be advisable.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: But the number one thing I would say is gentle binders and liposomal glutathione, and those things can be implemented even if someone is still being exposed.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: So with binders, I usually like to do binders for at least a couple of days, maybe up to a week, before introducing liposomal glutathione, because binders act like a sponge in the gut collecting whatever's coming through from the vial, and so you're just really just taking the edge off, just the top off the overall toxin load.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: Now the thing with someone who's got the genetic, I guess predisposition whilst mycotoxins are toxic to everyone, you see a much quicker and much stronger response and a much slower recovery time in those individuals, which you know means the protocol really has to be a lot more robust to get them a timely recovery.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: But certainly, regardless of all of that, I would say binders, and different binders have a different affinity for different mycotoxins.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: There is an argument for doing a mycotoxin test, but I feel like in the scheme of things, it's you're throwing money away If you can just use a combination of natural binders, things like activated charcoal, pharmaceutical grade bentonite, clay, micronized zeolites.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: There are other things that you can use as well that could be combined amongst those things, but they would be the heavy hitters, if you like.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: Start low and build up and that will just start to sort of pull toxins out rather than allowing that enterohepatic recirculation to.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: You know, just, I guess, slow down the elimination.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: And as long as there's no reaction to that and they're having regular bowel motions which can be tricky because IBS is a really common outcome of mold and more water damage, building exposure, you might want to address that.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: If it does start to block them up or they're having trouble, you know, drinking enough water.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: Also, adding electrolytes to water because of the issues with dehydration would be important.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: And if they're still, if they're having a regular bowel motion, they're not having symptoms of, you know, detox pathway, overwhelm, like headaches, nausea, skin breakouts, body odor, things like that, then I would introduce liposomal glutathione and again started a low dose and then build up.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: And the reason I love that is glutathione works on three different the three phases of detoxification and also supports the kidneys, which also take a massive hit with mycotoxins, supporting phase one, two and three, which you know.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: We've got phase one active in the lungs and in the skin too.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: And of course, topical contact and inhalation is a major root of exposure, more so than oral when it comes to a water damage building.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: So that's sort of ground, one that's like step one on a treatment protocol.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: And in addition to that, if they're having symptoms that you can also support them with.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: There are some things you can include.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: So, for example, mold illness or CERS is not a mold allergy, but often they are occurring concurrently.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Someone might have respiratory symptoms cough, sneezing, itchy throat, runny eyes, itchy nose, things like that.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: So you could use, you know, vitamin C, quesiton, things that stabilize mast cells and help with histamine production.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: I would absolutely include a potent clean fish oil as well.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: It is something that's used in the later stages of this first protocol to reduce specific inflammatory markers.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: However, there's no contraindication to starting it up front, so you could absolutely pop that in there too to support, you know, neurological health and really, I guess, try and mitigate some of those inflammatory mediators.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: But you have to actually be very careful not to use strong antioxidant herbs in those beginning stages, because the pathway by which antioxidants stimulate what we know or refer to as antioxidants stimulate pathways that actually trigger an antioxidant response from the cells and in essence they're actually just very mild free radicals.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: And so when that pathway is working, they have a net antioxidant, a significant net antioxidant effect on our body and a very beneficial.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: But the pathway that gets blocked by mycotoxins is NRF2.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: And so what we would normally think is, you know, as you and I as a clinician, nrf2, you know stimulating herbs as being good, very dangerous for someone who is currently impacted by mycotoxins, which is again why those things come later on down the track when you're, you know, being treated for mold or if you're treating someone for mold.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: So it's a real dance and you know for some symptoms people might have would be more neurological.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: So you could certainly include, you know, herbs that improve circulation to the brain and that would be helpful if someone's got nerve pain or neuro seizures.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: You could include nutrients that are supportive for, you know, nervous tissue health.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: But there's not a lot else you can do apart from gentle symptomatic support until someone's out of out of the situation.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: If you were going to talk about the most common symptoms versus the least common symptoms, what do you find patients present with?
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: Mostly we're talking like brain fog, fatigue, or I mean you mentioned pain there as well.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: And it smacks as like a chronic fatigue syndrome type picture.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Well, there is a school of thought that chronic fatigue syndrome is actually entirely caused by mold.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: Now, when you look at the physiology of chronic fatigue syndrome, we see, you know, inflammation, damaging mitochondrial function and therefore ATP production, isn't what it could or should be, and arguably, you know, there are other things that we could be exposed to that would cause that kind of high grade inflammation.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: So I wouldn't be willing to go so far as to say all chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia is related to mold.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: But what I would say is, if you have those conditions or you're a clinician who's identifying those things, you should be aware that in a study that looked at the connection there, in 90% of cases there was a current or past exposure to water damage.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: Building Fatigue was present in 90% of patients with water damaged building or sick building syndrome, and in urine samples, 93% of them were positive for at least one mycotoxin.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: So when you're looking for the root cause of something, this would be the primary agent for chronic fatigue syndrome.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: Same goes with fibromyalgia.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: I had both of these things when I was in the middle of my mold illness experience and we know that.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: You know, 75% of fibromyalgia patients report being fatigued, and it's, of course, logical to think being in pain, chronic pain, is tiring yes, it is, but it can also be, and likely will be, a result of mitochondrial failure or difficulties producing enough energy.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: We also know that there are chemokines that are triggered and found high in the cerebrospinal fluid that are also triggered by mold and driven by the interleukin that actually is triggered by mold exposure too.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: And it may be in these patients where we see, you know, higher incidence of autoimmune disease with water damage, building exposure too.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: So you've got.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: I guess there's kind of three main categories, if you like, in fact I'll send you a link.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: I've written an e-book on like the 14 sort of major ways mold people can make people sick.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: But chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia are big ones.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: Non-celiac gluten sensitivity is another red flag for me as a clinician, so someone who's sensitive to gluten but isn't a celiac sufferer or isn't yet a celiac sufferer, so that kind of the big ones.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: Also, gut issues as I said, mycotoxins damage the microbiome, they damage the microvillage.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: So escalating food allergies and intolerances, pain and all of those IBS symptoms are commonly induced by a water damage building.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Some other things we see are those like skin rashes Now it can be eczema, of course, and children living in homes with water damage are 15 times more likely to have moderate to severe eczema.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: We also know that eczema severity is directly correlated to the extent of water damage in a home.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: I actually never had eczema as a child, but developed eczema while I was in a water damage building, which has now resolved on its own.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: But also fungal skin issues, other weird rashes, dry skin, itchy things, but also respiratory issues, including asthma.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: So we know that mildew or a musty odor in a home is associated with both childhood and adult asthma, and up to 60% of atopic individuals are actually allergic to fungi anyway.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: And there's even evidence that shows an elevated ERME test, which is a way of assessing how moldy a home is in infancy, as a predictor of asthma in children at seven years old.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: So the literature hasn't gone so far as to say mold causes asthma.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: It currently there's a few papers that say that it mostly says exacerbates or makes it worse or increases the risk for it.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: But I also had my one and only asthma attack as a result of mold and I'm not an asthmatic, so certainly for me it caused an asthma attack and thankfully that hasn't hung around.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: But because a sick building or a water damage building is a repository for all kinds of microbes and a shifting microbiome and toxins.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: One of the other things that we see that is also probably one of the most common red flags is just chronic cold and flu symptoms.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: So runny nose, getting colds multiple times a year, having things escalate from a cold to pneumonia frequently.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Certainly for me, when I was traveling a lot for work, I would always wake up with a sore throat and I would always travel with natural lozenges and a herbal throat spray, because as a presenter I can't afford to lose my voice and I always blamed it on the plane, dry air or people's germs on the plane.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: And then when I obviously went through this experience and learned how to identify mold, it was actually only about five or six places throughout Australia I could stay at and not get sick.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: But whenever I stayed at those, I never got a sore throat again.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: So it wasn't the plane at all, it was moldy hotels, the air conditioning, the ventilation is poor, humidity is high.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: It was actually the accommodation that was responsible for that and not the plane at all.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: So chronically chronic respiratory stuff is a big one.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: And then of course, you've got CERS, which is primarily limited to about 25% of the population, but that's just a whole other weird barrel of symptoms.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: So you can have all of these things and have CERS as well, which is just horrific, but for, let's say, 75% of the population.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: These are the things that you will likely notice if you are either working in a water damaged office or living in a water damaged home.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: Okay, I've just got to ask a question there.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: You said 25% of the population.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: That's not the total population, that's the population that present with biotoxin illness.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Is that right?
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so at the moment, with the data that we have, it appears 25% of the human population have haplotypes that make them vulnerable, particularly vulnerable, to this.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: So one in four people would become much sicker, much quicker in a water damaged building than the other three.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: And basically what's happening there?
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: For anyone who's curious about how this works is we have two elements to our immune system the innate immune system and the adaptive immune system.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: And the innate immune system are the first responders and I'm obviously putting this very simply, so if you're an immunologist, don't come at me, I'm explaining it for everybody.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: But the innate immune system are the first responders.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: They show up all guns blazing and cause a lot of damage, inflammatory damage, Although the inflammatory mediators are designed to call in the adaptive immune system.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: So they sort of get on the scene, raise the alarm, shoot first, ask questions later kind of thing, and then, when the adaptive immune system crew turn up, the inflammation gets dialed down and a more nuanced and specific approach to the pathogen or the injuries.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Then take him and the way it works with toxin exposure, whether that's manmade toxicants or microbe made, in this case in someone whose genetics are fine, let's call them fine, they have a response, but the innate immune system responds for a finite period of time, and when the adaptive immune system comes in, they tag the biotoxins for elimination and then the other aspects of the adaptive immune system clear it and it's moved out of the body.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Now, in one in four people, the haplotype is such that the adaptive immune system is blind to the toxins, and so you've got one half of the immune system setting everything on fire, going help, help, we've got a problem, and the other half going eh well, can't really see, we don't see what the problem is here, and so nothing gets done and the toxins persistently create an inflammatory response and acute inflammatory response that then becomes chronically activated.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: And so the challenges.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: Obviously these are toxic to everybody, but the challenges for those of us with you know mold susceptible genes is we need a lot more help to move the biotoxins out and dial the inflammation back down.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: So from what you're talking about and the commonalities of symptom presentation with so many other conditions, as I've said before, sibo, you've mentioned autoimmune conditions.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: We're talking about quite common haplotypes here.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: We're mentioning things like asthma, blah, blah, blah Is mold biotoxin illness really a sort of how do I word this?
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: A presentation of erosion of resilience, so that you've got these other things and they're normally handled, or normally a nuisance?
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Let's say that's a really glib comment.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: But and then you've got a water damage building where water and it's not just initial water damage or water that comes and goes, it's water that sits and creates an issue correct.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: And then this sort of chronic mold issue occurs.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: That sets people over the precipice.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: Is that really what happens with mold illness?
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: So people with asthma, for instance?
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: Here's an example.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: So I've just come back from holidays.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: At one stage we stayed in a camping ground Caravan Park but we stayed in a cabin.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: Great, no worries.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: But when we turned on the air cons, the air cons had not been maintained and I acutely smelled this mold coming out and that night, like I had to take my asthma puffer a couple of times.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Now I don't have I hope I don't think I don't have mold biotoxin illness.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: I have asthma and it was inflamed by that, whereas other people they just they go over the precipice.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: Is this really what happens with biotoxin illness?
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so what you're experiencing with the asthma symptoms is just the natural immune response to inhaling particles that shouldn't be in your lungs, and so for anyone who maybe doesn't have asthma, maybe it would trigger a cough.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: I was in a bar on Saturday night dark underground thing and just immediately started coughing.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: No asthma for me, but that was just.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: It's an airborne irritant, but that is the I guess, an allergy reaction, whereas with mold illness it's a combination of your being poisoned by the environment and your immune system is burning you down to the ground trying to deal with it.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: So I suppose I wouldn't term it an erosion of resilience, because that suggests you could build up resilience to it.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: And if you have the haplotype that I do, or one of the mold haplotypes, that's just.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: It's just not a thing you can't.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: If you have a blind spot there, that will always remain.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: Now, one of the ways that we're described is the canaries and the coal mine, and really our bodies are an early warning system for others that the environment is toxic, and I've come to see it as a blessing.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: But I also have had the means and the resources to heal and get into a healthy home.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: So when you're in the middle of it?
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: It sure isn't.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: But what that means is mycotoxins damage the brain, they damage the kidneys, they damage the liver, they damage your gut and for someone like me it damages so much more violently that I become aware the environment is bad.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: But for someone who doesn't have those genes they might arguably live in a water damage building for a lot longer and then be diagnosed with kidney cancer or some sort of gastrointestinal cancer.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: Some mycotoxins cause skin cancer and because they're not feeling sick in the environment, they just put up with it, put up with the mold or maybe put up with the smell if there is a smell or put up, you know, paint over it.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: But the thing is mycotoxins are poisonous to everybody.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: It's just in a subset of us.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: Our bodies respond really badly.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: So, yes, you can support your organs, glands, tissues.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: Yes, you can build resilience.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: One of the big things that you know you can obviously do is remove all other source of toxicants in your life and of course, everyone's on their own journey with that.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: But I can tell you, as someone who ate 100% organic, didn't use any synthetic personal care products, filtered her water, you know, didn't live on a main road Like you, couldn't have done anything further for my physiological resilience at the time that I was exposed and I went down like a ton of bricks.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: So is it helpful?
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: I'm sure Is it, what allowed me to recover, maybe a lot quicker than other people.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: I believe it did help and thank God.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: Thank God for that, and maybe that's also why I'm not permanently damaged like some people are, but it isn't.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: There isn't any vitamin, herb, food, lifestyle thing that, if you have the haplotype, will prevent you from becoming sick from it or that will help you.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: You know out supplement or out lifestyle, a toxic environment.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: Sad, it's sad, but true.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: Trust me, I tried.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: I took so many supplements and, yes, they helped, they kept my head above water, but they really only drove me back towards good health once I was in a healthy home.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, look, I've got to say from being very confused to, I have to say, skeptical, and then slowly realizing the issue.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: When I interviewed and forgive me, I can't remember her first name, her last name was Hudgens.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: I'm coming up with Victoria Hudgens, natalia, natalia Hudgens.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: When you see that photographic evidence she was, her story was presented on television and when you see that photographic evidence that is not related to anorexia nervosa or norbolemia, nor eating disorders, when you see that I mean catastrophic erosion of vitality, it really opens your eyes to there must be something else happening.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: I guess the issue, the complexity is and this is where you require an expert like yourself is what is that erosion due to?
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: You need somebody, like a detective, to unravel all of the intertwined cords and say, okay, we're getting down to.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: This is possibly the reason I guess the controversy arises with.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: Well, how do you identify it as opposed to something else?
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: And again, it's just where it requires the expert.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: So can I ask?
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: As I've said at the beginning, this is such a complex issue.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: It requires a dedicated course, not a webinar, not a weekend.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: This is something quite in depth, but can you take us through just a couple of quick things before we have to leave?
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: Of course, what not to do?
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: What not to do so when you're cleaning up mould, because we've experienced that recently all of us in Australia.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, yep, so all right.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: So here's a few guidelines on do's and don'ts, and maybe I'll start with just what the treatment protocol looks like.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: So you know, you've got an idea of what to expect.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: One of the things that you know we usually would recommend is a shift in diet.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: Now, the haplotype challenges lie within the celiac gene, so we call the celiac gene the mould gene and because of the relationship there with gluten being so inflammatory, almost without exception we would say go strictly gluten free.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: And interestingly, most people feel better for that.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: And also, I mean, I'm gluten free now also, but I've had periods being gluten free and periods of eating it and it's I can notice I tolerate it more when I'm in a good environment and I start to react more badly when I'm in a problematic environment.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: So definitely go gluten free.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: We also like to recommend a low histamine diet as well, because typically, you know, histamine is one of those inflammatory mediators that's released and triggered by water damage building naturally, because the innate immune system uses it to call in the adaptive.
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: And also a low amylose diet, and that actually comes from Richie Shoemaker.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: Amylose is a type of carbohydrate chain that actually triggers two inflammatory markers or contributes to them with, you know, with mold illness.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: So cleaning up the diet in that respect and avoiding things that we know are commonly moldy or might harbor mold coffee, sadly, is one of those Using binders and liposomal glutathione, of course, is a really great start and anything to stabilize histamine.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: We also like to sort of check for antibodies and things at this stage.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: Again, because of that chronic activation of the innate immune system, autoimmune markers, if not conditions, are very common in those that are exposed to water damage building Even things like milk thistle can be protective.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: B vitamins can be really helpful for phase one and phase two.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: So these would be really kind of simple, gentle things to include.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: So good quality activated B vitamin and some glutathione and binders.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: Even an acetyl cysteine that's a really popular one, particularly some people suit that better than using glutathione, but it helps to break up mucus and and support the body in other ways.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: And even nasal sprays, whether that's saline or a xylitol based one, can be really helpful.
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: And then anything that reduces inflammation and other inflammatory markers, like fish oil can be helpful, and electrolytes.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: So they'd be sort of the basic things that you could comfortably begin, ideally under supervision, but would also be things you could safely use if you won't yet seeing a clinician and then environment wise.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: So there's a few, I guess, things that I could share with you.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Regardless of where you are, you need to monitor and manage the relative humidity.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: So what I mean by that is, if you're in a home, you should have a thermo hygrometer in every room, and ultimately, the range of relative humidity you need to keep your home in is really between 45% and 55%.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: Anything lower than 40 is too dry for human health and we start to see mucus membranes and skin suffering and propensity for infection start to rise.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: And anything over 60%, we see dust mites and mold beginning to grow.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: So dust mites, 60%, aspergillus species at 66% and then from 70% onwards, it's chaos.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: And just looking at mine at 67%, it was 81% the other day.
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: So as soon as you see it come outside or start to creep towards 60 and over, you need to start drawing the moisture out of the home, and that primarily will involve using dehumidifiers.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: Now some aircon units have a dry mode.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: Of course, your aircon must have been sanitized and disinfected within the last six months, otherwise it's probably just going to blow mold out.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: So get that done first.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: But I don't find dry mode is enough for most homes, especially not in tropical subtropical areas or places like Sydney when it's built on an aquifer.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: So as soon as it warms up, all of the evaporated moisture rises into the air and there's just too much volume.
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: So if you are camping to avoid mold or you're living in a car, a portable small dehumidifier and a thermo hygrometer for your tent or your vehicle would also be crucial, because otherwise, more than a few days of elevated humidity, your mattress is going to start to go moldy.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: You can start going to start to have mold growing in that space too, and it will become problematic for you again.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: So that would be my number one thing to prevent it.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: Obviously, things like ventilation and sunlight are helpful Drying things out, making sure things are really dry before you put them away when you're sharing and cooking, making sure the steam is being vented to the outside of your home.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: But when it comes to dealing with an existing mold problem, the hard and fast rule is mold needs to be removed, not killed or covered up, and so I would never use bleach ever.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: And depending on what surface has been impacted by mold, growth will depend on your approach, and again, this is something you would really should consult a certified mold testing technician or building biologist to get recommendations specific to you.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: But these guidelines will just give you a sense of what to do and therefore, when I tell you what not to do, you'll understand why.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: So if the surface is a non porous surface let's say it's bathroom tiles or it's a glass kitchen splash, back or windows or aluminium window frames, or it's glass or ceramic you can.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: A damp microfiber cloth is actually enough to physically remove it and then you can dry it thoroughly.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: I personally like to use warm water with a bit of dishwashing detergent, a splash of white vinegar oil, because I'm extra like that.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: But killing mold will trigger its defensive response and mycotoxin production, which is why, if you're particularly sensitive, just using a damp microfiber cloth is fine.
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: It's the physical removal and on non porous surfaces mold can't dig their roots and so you just they just wipe wipes off easily.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: If it's somewhere like white tiles and grout, you can use like a hydrogen peroxide water blend to help restore, like the visual appeal, and I would use that in place of bleach, just because the combination of bleach and mycotoxins creates like a super chemical that's really poisonous.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: But when it comes to semi porous and porous items, you actually have to cut it out.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: So on a practical level, let's say it's growing on your couch.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: Obviously you can't cut a chunk of your couch out and still have a usable couch, so it either goes in the bin or, you know, I had one client who it was her grandmother's, like you know, heirloom, vintage, antique things.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: So what she did was she just stripped off all the fabric and foam and had the whole thing reupholstered.
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: But given how cheap furniture is these days sometimes you're probably just better off replacing it.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: If it's your mattress, same thing it has that has to go on the bin.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: In fact, mattress and pillows would be the number one priority because that's where you're sleeping eight hours a night, give or take, and breathing in, you know, all of that straight into your airway and actually contacting your skin.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: That would be a much higher priority than, say, a floor rug, for instance, a baby high chair that's plastic should be okay.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: The thing is, mycotoxins actually can add Zorb to surfaces.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: So even though it might be mold free, the chemical has sunk, sunk in.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: Think about like if you spilled turmeric on your kitchen bench and then it just the yellow stain.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: It's like it's absorbed into the stone.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: This is what happens with the chemicals.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, things like if there's no visible mold, you might be able to just clean it and be okay, but porous things that are foam which the spores get trapped in, I'd get rid of.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: And then often what I'm guiding people to do is actually, you know, storing their stuff with things like moisture absorbing units in a climate controlled area and actually just allowing themselves to recover a bit before they bring all of their stuff out.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: And then, you know, I guide people to remediate things properly.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: But sometimes, if they're still reacting, at least they can discard it then, knowing they did all they could to try and, you know, restore it.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: And it means you're not sort of dumping things upfront, which is just can be very traumatic for people.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, if you, if you want to me to point you to a reference, the ANSI double ICRC guidelines are the ones that we adhere to as building biologists and certified mold testing technicians.
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: That being said, the documents are about $500 to purchase and you then have to navigate that on your own and if you've been affected cognitively, it's probably a bit hard.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: I think you're better off, you know, engaging someone who's, you know, actually studied that and let them.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: Let them guide you.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: Gotcha, we will definitely be putting all of these acronyms up on the website.
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: So that's VCSS, is that right?
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: And the BCSS?
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: No, no, no.
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: And the and the early and what was the guidelines you spoke of just then.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: Ah yes, the ANSI double R, double ICRC, S520 and R520.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: So I'll send you up on the website.
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that'd be lovely, amy.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for taking us through this confronting and confounding condition, which is more than one condition.
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: I'm sort of picking up.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: But anyway, thank you so much for taking us through this today.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: And it's great that we have somebody at the helm like yourself, and there's also Lisa McDonald.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: There's Nicole Biltma Sorry, nick, stumbling on your name there so it's great that we have these captains to guide patients and guide, indeed, practitioners to find out more in an ethical way and to see how we can help patients sort of recover from this debilitating illness.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for taking us through this today.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: Thanks, andrew, appreciate your time.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: And thank you everyone for joining us today.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: Of course, you'll find all of the show notes and the other podcasts on the Designs for Health website.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: I'm Andrew Whitfield Cook.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: This is Wellness by Designs.