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Barry Lyndon · The Next Reel Film Podcast

• 0:08
  Pete Wright: I'm Pete Wright.
• 0:10
  Andy Nelson: And I'm Andy Nelson.
• 0:11
  Pete Wright: Welcome to the next reel. When the movie ends,
• 0:14
  Andy Nelson: Our conversation begins.
• 0:16
  Pete Wright: Barry Lyndon is over. In my profession,
• 0:19
  Pete Wright: we hear many such stories. Yours is one of the most intriguing and touching I've heard in many weeks.
• 0:30
  Pete Wright: Barry Lyndon, Andy —Kubrick. Ugh. Here we go.
• 0:35
  Andy Nelson: Your favorite director.
• 0:37
  Pete Wright: My favorite director.
• 0:39
  I'm interested in have we talked about Barry Lyndon before at all just as friends?
• 0:44
  Andy Nelson: I don't think so.
• 0:45
  Pete Wright: I don't think we have.
• 0:46
  Andy Nelson: It's yeah. It hasn't come up in conversation.
• 0:50
  Pete Wright: That would be weird if it just came up. It's hey, Andy. Meaning remember Barry Lyndon? Nobody remembers Barry Lyndon. And you know what?
• 1:00
  You know what? I think that's a crime.
• 1:04
  Andy Nelson: Oh, look at you. Mhmm. Look at you. Mhmm. It's interesting because we've covered the let's see.
• 1:10
  We've covered doctor strange love, 02/2001, and the shining. I think those are the only three oh, and and the killing. So we've covered those four Stanley Kubrick films on our show in the past for various different series. And now we're coming into this one. And my recollection, correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection from you is that you really enjoyed The Killing and Doctor Strangelove and The Shining, and 2,001 is the one that you have serious issues with.
• 1:40
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Even even Clockwork Orange, really enjoy of Keberix. Like, we didn't talk about it.
• 1:45
  Andy Nelson: But Yeah. Yeah. But of the ones we've talked about. And so it was it's interesting because I I really loved Barry Lyndon. I just I absolutely my wife walked out about halfway through.
• 1:58
  She's just like, what? This is only part two? I thought it was about to end. This is so boring. And she just took off.
• 2:04
  So was like, oh, sorry. I'm loving it. But she just was done. So funny. But I was, like, torn on what you were going to think about this.
• 2:16
  Because as I watched it, I'm like this I could see this very easily falling into the 2001 realm for Pete, where it's just slow and boring, he just doesn't connect with it at all. So it's exciting that it's something that you seem to enjoy.
• 2:31
  Pete Wright: Ryan O'Neill carries a lot of water in this movie, of course. I find him enormously charismatic.
• 2:37
  Andy Nelson: Although, he actually only carry empty buckets at one point. I never That's true. Carrying water.
• 2:42
  Pete Wright: That's I see what you did there. I applaud it.
• 2:45
  Andy Nelson: I always try to throw your dad joke in when I get a chance.
• 2:48
  Pete Wright: You you got one. You got one. And now you'll now you you're gonna hold off until next week. Now on today, we're done. We're done.
• 2:55
  Okay. I I think this represents a really interesting it it's an interesting sort of data point, and I and I wonder if if this is why it was sort of forgotten because it's like the transition from Kubrick's, like, super emotional intensity epic, you know, Clockwork Orange to his kind of existential detachment of the shining eyes wide shut era. And it it's like right in the middle. And it's in in so many ways, it's a it's a very simple story. It's a forgive me for saying this to all those of like named personages.
• 3:30
  It's a Peter Principle movie. It's a guy who just sort of fails up, and he's aspirational. Right? He has desires, but it's also kind of a a dog that catches the car story. He's terrible when he actually does get what he wants.
• 3:46
  He's very bad at it. And I I find that enormously satisfying. And I'm gonna get this out of the way. I think maybe more than every than any movie that we have watched together, I can't believe I'm saying this, I don't think the movie works without the voice over.
• 4:06
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. That's kind of a shock to hear you say it because I know you have a real issue with voice over. But I also know that when voice over is done well and done properly, that you can appreciate that. It's only when voice over is done in a way where it just feels like they didn't know how else to tell the story, so they're just gonna get a bunch of exposition out through some voice over that just doesn't need to be there. And I agree with you.
• 4:31
  I think this voice over is a fascinating example of how to do narration in a film. It's not a character we ever meet. It's like a god sort of character, all seeing who can see forward and backward into the story and gives us information, like hints that something bad is going to happen to Barry or to their son or whatever in the narration before it happens as if all of this is already destined. Right? Like, it's it's fascinating.
• 5:01
  So do you wanna say more about about how it worked for you?
• 5:05
  Pete Wright: There is a very small, simple, simple part of me that thinks that maybe a sophisticated British narrator is always going to work. Because I'm a big Attenborough head, as you know. I I do think that that part works. But the other piece is it's a fate it it's presented as a fable. Like, you almost can feel the storybook opening as if somebody is reading to you about the story of Barry Lyndon.
• 5:31
  And I so emotionally connected with that, with the intent of that, with the spirit of it, with the emotion of it, the way the the the thing works from the jump, telling the story and allowing us to jump through time very efficiently. And I will say, like, I this is a long movie. It's just just a couple of minutes over three hours. And unlike some movies that are three hours and feel shorter or that are in ninety minutes and feel like three hours, I would say this one feels exactly like three hours. Like, it's a long movie.
• 6:05
  I didn't find myself falling asleep during it, but it it it doesn't operate at a particularly breakneck pace. No. That's true. Still, the voiceover is a reminder of my role in the story bearing witness to Barry's exploits. And I found that interestingly sort of contemporary and really engaging.
• 6:28
  Andy Nelson: It's interesting because the original novel, William Makepace Thackrey's novel, The Luck of Barry Lyndon, and then I think it was actually rereleased as the, like, the memoirs of Barry Lyndon. I know when I went to see if I could find the audiobook version of it, that was how it was listed. The book is actually told first person by Redmond Barry, aka Barry Linden. And Kubrick specifically opted to not go that route because he felt that that first person like, it it was a little more of a comic tone in that in the way that Barry provided it, and it also gave you a sense that there's a little bit more of this unreliable narrator in the way that he's describing things. And he wanted to pull that out because he felt that for the film, it would work better to cut to kind of extract that personality from the from the tone of it.
• 7:29
  And that's interesting because we've also had that sort of story where it's a first person narrator, and we're hearing it told by the person who were watching. And sometimes it also turns out to be an unreliable narrator. Right? And so I I think that I don't know. For me, I like you, there was something that that created this novelistic tone by having this over this omniscient voice kind of just sitting there describing this story to us and and giving us this sense that that we need to be paying attention because he's telling us things that are going to happen.
• 8:07
  And so we're kind of watching the pieces fall into place. And so I don't know. For me, it felt important to have made that that change.
• 8:14
  Pete Wright: Interestingly, I have the a screenplay dated 02/18/1973, and the voice over is all first person. The origin it's it seems like the original draft was all written from the perspective of Barry telling his own story. And I I could not agree with you more. I mean, I think that decision to separate, Barry from the storytelling is was really smart. Yeah.
• 8:42
  Really, really smart. So that works really well. And I think what's the the other piece is having the narrator allows us to experience what is otherwise minimalist dialogue in the film. Like, there isn't a lot of of monologuing going on in this movie. It allows us to jump into scenes very quickly and already have context.
• 9:04
  And so this sort of minimalist dialogue works, I I think, as better as social satire. We get a lot of silences. We get a lot of stilted formal language that is read as subtextual, thanks to the setup from the narrator. And I think that is it it it just makes wit effortless in this movie. And especially in the first act, right, the part one.
• 9:30
  And this isn't really a three act kind of a thing. Right? This is a a more of a classical tragedy. We have the buildup in the beginning and the crash down at the end. And and I think the the style of how he presents words, whether by narrator or character, is perfect for the style that he's going for, that classical sort of tragic tone.
• 9:54
  Andy Nelson: And I I think it speaks more to the character of Barry Lyndon as we're kind of watching this character who, as you said, is this person who has ambitions, but really is just not great about achieving anything. And he kind of gets to various places, but it's never it's I don't know. He's he's never really very good at anything. And he it just ends up in a place where he's just, he's pretty much lost and drunk. And and at the end of it, he's overspent the the money and has just nothing left and is essentially just, you know, with the loss of his son, is just kind of, like, essentially turned catatonic.
• 10:34
  And that's kind of where we end with this as we get close to the end of with this character who's just fallen off the the map. He's just like any sense of importance, has has been driven out because of his his desires. But also as we as we get a sense of, like, he does have this driving sense of personal affront and what he thinks is right, which, like, from the beginning. And I don't know. Is it like is all of that because his dad had been killed in a duel early in his life?
• 11:09
  I don't know. But we we find out he excels at sword fighting. He excels at boxing. He excels at just fighting in general. And from the jump, he's in love with his cousin and is pissed off that this this other suitor has, not only taken interest in her, but is is the one who's vic the victor because he actually has money and can pay.
• 11:33
  And so he so Barry, you know, puts himself into a situation where now he's gonna duel this guy. And, like, we see him getting into these these situations over the course of it because he's just so hot headed, and that's it ends up in many ways being his downfall.
• 11:50
  Pete Wright: It is. And, you know, don't forget, the suitor has regimentals. Right? Like, he is an officer and looks mighty good in his regimentals according to the cousin. And I think there is very much an an issue of of Barry struggling with his relationship with authority or perceived authority.
• 12:11
  The really interesting part of his character is that he does not seem to have much behind all of his emotion, like, his emotional reaction to the world. Like, he's angry and smart. Like, he you think he's smart. He's talented. Right?
• 12:27
  Skilled, as you say. But but, again, that second act is is a little bit phlegmxing because he demonstrates his he's really, really bad with money and doesn't have a a lot of aspiration beyond, like, the here and now, like, what is immediately and next. As evidenced by him literally riding away with the horse with those two guys who were bathing together in the river, he just takes a horse and leaves because it was an escape of opportunity. Right? It was wasn't premeditated at all.
• 12:59
  Before we get too far, I wanna step back and get some screenplay comments because one of the things that's interesting this I haven't read a lot of of Kubrick's screenplays directly. But one of the things I'm most interested in is in in reading this screenplay, Kubrick has, in some places, page after page of screen notes. They're they're like it it's like reads like a journal. And it's unlike many other screenplays that I've read that seem to do that old thing where you, like, leave room on the page for discovery on set. Right?
• 13:32
  Leave room on the page. This feels like a very much a cognitive screen blueprint from Stanley Kubrick. Are you are you a Kubrick have you read any other Kubrick screenplays? Does this seem familiar? What is the strategy behind doing this?
• 13:50
  Is it seems like a thing that only an auteur could get away with.
• 13:53
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. I haven't read any of his screenplays, but I have seen screenplays like this. And, generally, it is the situation where it's gonna be a writer director, the only writer on it, and they are directing it. And they have kind of the authorial voice as to what's going to happen. And they are much more free to put in extra notes into the screenplay so that they know what they're wanting to see so the actors have a sense of it.
• 14:20
  And it makes for a totally different sense of of how you handle a screenplay, but I have seen it before. And that's generally the case. So a writer director can usually get away with that sort of thing because it's theirs.
• 14:35
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Like, I would expect it from somebody like, I don't know, Paul Thomas Anderson. Right? Or Wes Anderson for the, you know, all the Anderson all the Andersons would do this. Maybe a a Jorgos Lantermost.
• 14:49
  Who else? Scorsese? I I don't know. Like, this
• 14:53
  Andy Nelson: is what I would own scripts.
• 14:54
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Right. Like, this is the I I feel like this is a this is an influential style. Walter Hill well, Walter Hill's
• 15:02
  Andy Nelson: scripts were actually much thinner. Like, he had a really sparse writing style to the point where there's much less on the page.
• 15:09
  Pete Wright: Interesting.
• 15:09
  Andy Nelson: But probably the inverse where he, in his head, knows what he is actually wanting to be on the screen. So he's okay putting less on the page. Right.
• 15:19
  Pete Wright: Well, I I found it really interesting the way this this thing was put together and the way it walks you through quite visually what the story is. It's it's worth peeking at. So that's screenplay
• 15:32
  Andy Nelson: one o one half. And since we're talking about some of that, it's definitely worth jumping into kind of the overall look and tone of this film because, I mean, it is such a huge part of it. The it's just I mean, it is a stunning film to look at from start to finish. The cinematography, production design, costume design, everything just speaks to just a master craftsman and building this amazing film. The fact that he was patterning so much of the looks off of off of paintings of specifically William Hogarth, that was one of the artists they were looking at.
• 16:09
  But, also, just the the very specific use of the the Zeiss lenses that they retooled so that they could actually film in candlelight with a number of different scenes. And I I think that the lenses that they used had the lowest f stops in history. Was like a point zero seven. Yeah. Crazy.
• 16:29
  Pete Wright: They NASA was using them. They were NASA lenses. Yeah. They're sexy.
• 16:35
  Andy Nelson: Moon landing and stuff.
• 16:36
  Pete Wright: I can't say that. I've never used anything NASA I mean, Velcro. Yeah. I wanna think about it. Velvet Kool Aid Velcro Kool That's me and NASA.
• 16:47
  Kubrick gets nice message.
• 16:48
  Andy Nelson: Tang, not Kool Aid.
• 16:50
  Pete Wright: Right. It's Tang. Oh, Andy. I am I am I am shamed.
• 16:55
  Andy Nelson: Yes. Indeed. Indeed.
• 16:57
  Pete Wright: Alright. How does talk to me about the let's talk about Barry because he's a really interesting like, how do you characterize Barry Lyndon? He's a protagonist, definitely the protagonist of film. How does he, to your eye, subvert our sort of expected hero's journey?
• 17:18
  Andy Nelson: Well, in many ways, it's it's the antihero that we're getting here. So that's the first thing is that he's he is our protagonist, but he's not really heroic. He's just kind of falling into situations, over and over through the film and meeting people and ending up, doing one thing and then doing another thing. And just he kind of just, like, you know, happens into a lot of the stuff in his life. And I think that by casting Ryan O'Neill in the role, we're getting it's funny because Ryan O'Neill I mean, I enjoy Ryan O'Neill.
• 17:51
  I think he works really well on things like What's Up Doc and and Paper Moon. There are other times where I find him to be a little a little empty in his performances. Like, he was kind of that seventies pretty boy, and he worked really well to kind of play that. But in some ways, it works really well for this character because, like, he he is kind of like, there's this sense of vacancy a number of times. Yes.
• 18:18
  But at the same time, he gives a really compelling performance. Like, you can see subtle emotions on his face at various points as different things are happening or whatever. And I think that that brings a lot to what we're getting with this character who is kind of, like, just wading through the mire of life trying to figure out how to come out on top. Like, that's what he's doing. Is it gonna be gambling?
• 18:44
  Is it gonna be working as a spy? Is it gonna be wedding the right person? Whatever it's going to be, he wants to just kind of, like, keep trying to do something where he can suddenly make a lot of money. And so that kind of emptiness in the performance and the character really works. And I think it even is is amplified by the fact that we have the narration over the course of the film so we can kind of get this sense of what's going on.
• 19:13
  And we're just now watching this empty vessel kind of, like, shuffling along through it as if he really has no say in what's going to happen. It's just like everything that is going on is kind of, like, destined to happen. And it just is like he's just kinda, like, moving through it. And so I don't know. I just find that so fascinating.
• 19:32
  And then then he has those outbursts of anger when things seem to really not go his way. What I found really fascinating is the you know, he's a man who lost his father when he was young and had, guess you could say, a father figure in. Was that his uncle? I can't remember who that guy was who was also a captain.
• 19:55
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Who said who said, I'm gonna give you as long as I'm alive, you shall not want. And the next day, admits he lost almost everything to gambling. Don't worry. Kiss me, my boy.
• 20:06
  I'll never see you again.
• 20:07
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Right. Right. Right. And then he kinda in in some way, he ends up in different situations where he has somebody who is, I don't know, I guess you could say a father figure as if he needs somebody to help guide him along.
• 20:21
  Right? So after that guy dies, captain Grogan, I believe, then he ends up that's when he flees the, the British army, ends up getting, forcibly recruited into the Prussian army when they find out that he's a that he had deserted. And captain Pottsdorf, he ends up saving captain Pottsdorf when a thing collapses on him. And then captain Pottsdorf kind of becomes his new father figure, and he's working with him. And then he's recruited to spy, and it ends up being this Chevalier who actually is a total another faker who is an Irishman from his home country.
• 21:07
  And so he ends up kind of, like, becoming his new father figure, and he goes into all the gambling. And all of that happens, and he's just like, he can't do anything unless he also gets somebody else to help guide him along. And then he finally stumbles into meeting, lady Linden. And that's when he kind of does the the whole thing of wooing her. Her husband dies, and they marry.
• 21:34
  And they have a kid. And that moment when he has the kid is like where you actually see a different sense of bear. Right? He actually is, like, excited to be like a father. He's he's actually now he is somebody to actually give all that love to, and I that was an interesting sequence.
• 21:52
  Pete Wright: I think it's an interesting sequence, but how do you stack Lord Bullington to that? Right? Lord Bullington was the original child from the original husband. And I think, you know, his his relationship with Lord is as important as his relationship with his own child because Lord Bullington, he is unable to demonstrate that he's learned anything from all of these other found father figure relationships in trying to create one for himself. Like, he is just unable to break through.
• 22:24
  And ultimately, his efforts just continue to build to to sort of foment rage in Lord Bullington, who become who goes from this whelpy little kid to this vengeful man by the end who just wants to see wants to see Barry dead, which is, you know, I mean, it's it we get a we it's very much a idiot Hamilton to Aaron Burr kind of a relationship.
• 22:53
  Andy Nelson: That well, it speaks to the nature of the connection, and Barry doesn't see any value in the relationship with Lord Bullington. Right? His value that he sees is with lady Linden, who he marries. And, I mean, he even knows, as his mother reminds him, until you get a title, you're gonna be nothing if she dies. Like, all of that money is gonna go to the first son.
• 23:22
  You'll get nothing. Your son with her will get nothing. You'll be left out in the street. That's that element that I I don't know. Because of that, it always makes Lord Bullington a little bit of a rival.
• 23:36
  Right? Like, he he can't and and the fact that, I think, from the jump, Lord Bullington, when he was a young boy, already didn't like him. He already like, he was a very smart child, and actually great child performance. I loved him as a kid, and how he talks to the chaplain that who was his, like, teacher and everything. And he's just like, I I can tell he's just here for her money, and I'm I'm upset at my mother for buying into it.
• 24:03
  Like, he it's it's a fascinating conversation that he has where he recognizes all of this. And so he's just he's very intuitive and understands that this is this is a
• 24:12
  Pete Wright: gold digger. And lord Bullington has a very strange relationship with his own mother. They need to do a little bit of separation work.
• 24:21
  Andy Nelson: You you say that, but you also make it sound like it's much more pervert than it is. I don't I think it's just a child and his mother. And he's protective. I think he's protective. I don't think it's anything more than that.
• 24:33
  Pete Wright: Okay. Alright. Just saying. A little separation work. Just a little just a drip.
• 24:40
  Separation work. Oh, my. I the the ultimate undoing of Barry comes in how he handles well, it handles his loans. Right? That's kind of a subversive commentary on late stage capitalism from Kubrick here because we have a a guy who weirdly is an eighteenth century gig worker.
• 25:07
  Right? I mean, that's what he's doing. He's essentially driving Uber and DoorDash, and he's just trying to make ends meet wherever he can opportunistically. And when he he finally achieves success, he doesn't he doesn't know what to do with it. And success is in many ways stacked against him already.
• 25:27
  Right? Like, the way you have to live to maintain that standard of living is precarious, and that's part of the second act theme is the fragility of aristocracy that he almost made it, but he didn't quite. And his one outburst when he, you know, tried to publicly kill his child in front of everybody. His stepchild. His stepchild in front of everybody at the party, he was canceled.
• 25:58
  Right? He was canceled. Yeah. I could not help but think of how how sort of prescient the film is. Makes it super timeless.
• 26:07
  Andy Nelson: Well, yeah. Absolutely. And it's a fascinating example of of how that society works. And and your wording of fragility, I think, is is a great way to describe it because it really is incredibly delicate as to how you have to go about working to get a title. Right?
• 26:28
  It's it's a huge process. He brings in this friend that is trying to teach him the way. And as you said, it requires him to spend a lot of money to buy all these fancy paintings. But at the same time, you also get this sense that Barry is probably overdoing it, and he's not doing it smartly. And I think that's another thing that we see as he's just spending ridiculous amounts of money on these paintings and everything.
• 26:57
  It's like, you never hear Lord Wendover. He's the guy who is kind of overseeing Barry in his quest to get this title. You never see Lord Wendover really saying anything to Barry. Like, slow down. You don't need to buy that giant painting for a ridiculous sum of money.
• 27:13
  Like, you don't see that, but you kind of get a sense as Barry continues just spending insane amounts on things that,
• 27:22
  Andy Nelson: I mean, some of
• 27:23
  Andy Nelson: it is probably necessary, but I just had a sense that Barry is just going overboard probably because he's in this, like, I gotta get more. I gotta get more because if I get more, I'm gonna get the title. And you just see him like, this is what the solution is. So I'm gonna go all in, and I'm just gonna keep spending it. And I think that's that ends up becoming his problem.
• 27:43
  And he he's never able to kind of figure out like, he's not somebody who understands the nuances of what really it takes. Like, what is Lord Wendover really actually telling him to do? Is Barry really gonna be because, I mean, Wendover has that kind of speech early on. Like, it's a great person. I'm looking for somebody who's great.
• 28:03
  And I can't remember the exact wording, but, like, he's looking for somebody who's not necessarily rich, who's not necessarily, like, well loved, but it's just somebody who's great, who has that, you know, Like, that's what he's looking for. And he never really says it, but at some points, I kind of think he already knows. Barry's not really somebody who actually has that. But, hey, I'll give it a go with him and see if we can make it work.
• 28:30
  Pete Wright: It's really interesting because I think you're picking apart again, I'll go back to the the absurdity of late stage capitalism. The irony or I guess the satire is that ambition becomes irrelevant in the face of aristocratic ritual. Right? Like, what what Barry is doing is just falling into he's, like, on rails, on the aristocratic rails. And in many ways, nobody could say anything.
• 29:01
  No father figure could possibly say anything that would have gotten him off of those rails. I I don't think. Because I think that's another character attribute of Barry, which is his opportunism means he doesn't really listen to others. Yeah. He takes the opportunity that's in front of him and no one else.
• 29:23
  Andy Nelson: Right. Like, you could see some of that when he's talking to the people, his friends, we'll just say, about that painting that one of them has that huge painting on the wall. And Barry's like, I like the way that he uses the blues. How much is this painting? And they're and he's like, oh, well, don't know.
• 29:41
  It's kind of priceless. You know? And he's like, no. Really? Well, how much?
• 29:45
  And you can see them looking at each other like, this guy's kinda crazy. And Barry doesn't catch on to any of that. Like, you don't need to buy that painting. Like Yeah. Yeah.
• 29:54
  You're We're, in many ways,
• 29:55
  Pete Wright: trying to help you right now.
• 29:56
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Exactly. He just doesn't understand. Yeah. It's a it's a whole thing.
• 30:02
  And I think that really is a lot of the elements that bring him down. And, you know, also, I think there is a relationship with his own mother that fuels that because she sees these things that, you know, you don't you don't have a title. You gotta get that. She pushes him into that. So that's definitely an issue.
• 30:21
  And and she's kind of like, you know, dismisses the chaplain, and she's seeing a lot of these things that helps create enemies and creates problems for her son. But at the same time, I just think that he puts himself into these situations and makes it harder and harder. And, you know, I think, is there work he could have done to cement things and make a find a way to be friends with lord Bullington when he was young? Probably. But Barry just he'll never see that.
• 30:50
  He only ever sees the rivalry. He only ever sees the problem in his quest to achieve something greater.
• 31:00
  Pete Wright: Yeah. How'd you feel about the film's use of sound and score?
• 31:06
  Andy Nelson: You know, it's funny. There are often films that overuse a theme or a song to the point where I'm like, oh my god. Can they stop with this song and do something else? But handles Saraban for the keyboard suite in d minor that is played throughout, I thought was it worked really well for me. And it got to a point when we're in that final duel where it's all done with, like, a bass and drums, and that's it as far as the instrumentation.
• 31:34
  Or I'm like, this is genius. The way to kind of use that classical piece, but retool it where it just becomes this, like, deep, dark, kind of, like, heartbeat underneath that entire scene that it just played so well. I loved it. I thought it was a fantastic use of that particular piece. And the rest of the music was great, but that piece throughout, I mean, Kubrick is so smart with classical music and the way he ties it into his films.
• 32:03
  2,001 is a great example. But here, I'm just like, that is just this top notch use of a of a piece.
• 32:11
  Pete Wright: Yeah. I think so too. I think the handle piece, of course, Schubert, Bach, they're they're used throughout. The Irish lament women of Ireland by Sean O'Riada is in there. I I not familiar with that piece originally, but it is beautiful.
• 32:27
  There is something really interesting about how hushed this film is. Right? They there is a pairing of this beautiful refined classical music with brutal imagery. Right? With, and and that seems like also a Kubrick fingerprint.
• 32:44
  Right? We're gonna put these characters, these two army regiments, red coats and blue coats, walking toward one another, and they're just being brutally massacred in proper order to classical music or just really subdued diegetic sound. Like, I think we're just left having to face what we see in a way that is manipulative only by what we see. Right? It's not like we're adding a score to make the scene.
• 33:14
  I think he's I think he he made a choice to force us to try to be uncomfortable with what we're watching, with how how war was waged and how individuals were impacted. And, I thought it was I thought it was beautiful. Cold, observational, weird for a movie that is ostensibly a satire and a critique of economic critique.
• 33:37
  Andy Nelson: This is one of those interesting examples, kind of like the sting, where the score is made up of preexisting pieces, but retooled for the actual score. And so Leonard Rosenman came in and kind of, like, worked on the how to retool all these pieces specifically for for the film. And it was also a key time in Oscar history because they actually had a category specifically for this type of score. So it worked well for for it. But, yeah, I love the way that the music plays throughout this.
• 34:11
  Pete Wright: Yeah. What have we missed before we get to the end? What else is on your list?
• 34:16
  Andy Nelson: I already talked about the cinematography a little bit and and just kind of the lenses and everything. But I also just wanna say, like, as far as as how Kubrick works shots and and camera and everything, zoom has always been something that Kubrick has used all the way up through the end with eyes wide shot. Like, he just always has integrated zoom. And even after people have said, oh, the zoom lens is kind of outdated, You know, we'd rather just get a trucking shot in there. It feels more natural.
• 34:43
  He still would use the zooms. And I think that they're really effective when he uses them because he he finds a way to use them to enhance different moods and everything. And it doesn't feel like, oh, it's a cheap man's dolly when he does it. Like, he he finds ways to just put it in a particular place to enhance a particular moment where we see, like, Barry standing on a bridge or something and, like, a great two shot that slowly just zooms out so that we can kind of see him kind of feeling like we're getting swallowed by the landscape. So a lot of great zooms and and dollies and trucking shots with characters.
• 35:21
  I I always think of one where Barry has first kind of, like, fallen for Lady Linden, and she leaves that little gambling table that they're all at. And Barry comes out to talk to her, and there's a a tracking shot as Barry comes out and the camera kind of tracks with him until he kind of joins her, it becomes a two shot. And I always think about how that's a shot that Wes Anderson paid homage, stole, however you wanna say it, in Rushmore. And so it's like he just simple things like that become things that people recognize as really cool camera moves and interesting ways to use the two shot, the dolly shot, and also the handheld shot. Like, he also knew when to go handheld.
• 36:01
  And there are some great handheld sequences like in the duels, the boxing, the the wars. And I I just felt like I don't know. It was it was nice to see him really throwing everything in as far as the camera. You know?
• 36:16
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Yeah. No. I totally agree. I thought the camera was just perfectly appropriately active.
• 36:21
  And when it was passive, was deeply intentional. And I I felt really connected to that too. It's beautiful. Alright. I I we have to talk about the final duel.
• 36:35
  Yeah. Because the final duel is, you know, it it's important. I think for the film, it's really important for Barry because I feel like we've spent the last, you know, forty minutes dragging Barry. And so I I would love to know how what your take is on the final duel, Barry's actions in the final duel against his own adoptive son.
• 36:58
  Andy Nelson: It's a fascinating sequence, way it plays. I mean, I it's such a gripping that whole thing was just thrilling. The way the whole thing played with the accidental misfire and the vomiting. Like, everything worked so well in context of what we were doing there. I have to feel to some extent that at that particular point, Barry recognized much of the error in his ways.
• 37:28
  Like, that's that was kind of my sense. Is he recognized that, lord Bullington has caused to be angry at him for for making a mess of things. And I I don't know. I felt in that moment that Barry could see some of that and so chose to not to deliberately shoot into the ground instead of shooting at him. Like, I felt he recognized he justly has a problem with me.
• 37:58
  I I don't have any issues with him, and so I'm not gonna shoot at him.
• 38:03
  Pete Wright: Yeah. I I yeah. I think we're on the same page there. I think that I think you're right. The vomiting is a tell, and I think it it gives Barry the opportunity to recognize the vulnerability in this young man who he has helped to raise, however poorly, right, he he helped to raise.
• 38:22
  There's there's something about him making a choice. And I think you could argue the only truly active morally conscious choice Barry ever makes in the film is this one right here. Right? It's it's that he decides to spare Bullington because I think he becomes aware that he no longer sees the point in perpetuating destruction in his family. His family is already exhausted.
• 38:52
  It the it's it's accounts of destruction. There the I think the question that that I have on it is that, is it a hollow gesture? Right? Like, because everything else that that Barry does is performative. Is this him behaving nobly just as he's about to lose everything so that it makes him appear noble?
• 39:16
  Like, is is this the ultimate sort of peak of satire of the film that when he finally acts like a gentleman, Bullyingdon, his adoptive son, shoots him anyway and sends him into exile.
• 39:32
  Andy Nelson: I mean, a great great possibility. And I think that's interesting because you could you could I don't know. You you have to imagine, like, how much foresight does Barry actually have? Like, does he recognize at this point that if he stays where he is, if he actually shoots this kid, we know he's a great shot. We've already seen that.
• 39:51
  And so we imagine that he probably would take Lord Bowlingdon out right away. Does he recognize that if he actually does that, it's going to put him into straits with his wife who's probably gonna be pissed, maybe leave him, put him into a place where he ends up having no money. And so it could be a very selfish act by doing it this way. He's maybe hoping for what exactly happens that he's gonna be exiled. Sure.
• 40:20
  But, hey, he's gonna get 500 a year for it. Right. And he'll and he'll be able to as long as he doesn't come back, sure. I'll I'll do that. And I can have a stipend that I can I can run off with and do what I wanna do?
• 40:33
  And as we he goes off and does his gambling. He still doesn't make anything. But so that's that's actually pretty interesting.
• 40:39
  Pete Wright: Yeah. I mean, because it's isn't it a funny indicator that that Barry, our protagonist, ostensibly our our change character, doesn't actually grow at all. Like, he just finally stops fighting the things that are standing in his way. He just finally acquiesces, but he doesn't he doesn't actually grow in character, I don't think.
• 41:04
  Andy Nelson: No. No. And yeah. I mean, in the scope of, like, change character, that sort of thing, I I feel like a lot of that also is much more modern screenwriting. And I don't know if this is so novelistic that I don't know if that's necessarily, you know, something that we could say with his character where he's intended to be changing or he's changing others because he's also not really changing others.
• 41:28
  It's and and, again, a lot of that speaks to the the narration again, the sense that we just have we have this predestined tale that we're gonna tell of this character as he just kind of, like, stumbles from one thing to another.
• 41:42
  Pete Wright: It's it's an interesting sort of Kubrickian fingerprint again that that here we have this character who finally acts with principles, and principles don't ever protect you from consequences. Right? If if we've learned anything from Kubrick Kubrick's other films, like, consequences must be paid, and it kinda doesn't matter who you are. It's a bit fatalistic, Kubrick. Bit fatalistic, you might say.
• 42:12
  Andy Nelson: It's also I I like how the film gives us this epilogue at the end that kind of wraps up this particular period of time where we get this sense that this was how things were, but even then, it was pretty limited. Like, right after all of this and Barry went through all this, everything kind of equaled out. It's kind of like so it's like yeah. So he went through all of that and had he had he kind of gotten through all of that, maybe it wouldn't have mattered so much.
• 42:39
  Pete Wright: Yeah. George the third ultimately is saddled with responsibility. I don't remember what the actual final title card wrote was of the movie. I didn't write it down. But in the final screenplay, is it the same it was in the reign of George the third that the above name persona just lived in quarrel, good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.
• 42:58
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. That's pretty much what it said.
• 43:00
  Pete Wright: Yeah. So it's it's a funny way to kind of assign blame to royalty for all that we just watched, the puppets that we just watched, you know, act out their their scene. But really, we're we're putting our targets right on the back of the of the highest royals.
• 43:20
  Andy Nelson: Which is interesting because we get to a point, like, you could say that's almost kind of that peak moment for Barry when he's in that line and he actually gets to talk to the king. Right? When the king is coming down and has that moment. Like, that is potentially the moment where things could turn for him, where he could actually, if he said the right thing, if he did the right thing, and the king really remembered him, could that have been a moment to have been granted the title? But, like, the king talks to him briefly, but it also doesn't seem like it it's exactly enough.
• 43:52
  You know? And then he goes off and does really stupid thing by attacking his stepson.
• 43:59
  Pete Wright: And and, you know, I mean, just like there, I sort of don't know who Kubrick is talking to. Is Kubrick talking to us or to contemporaries of the film that we just watched? Because they're all equal now to us means the entire era is dead, and they're all equal in in dirt. But if they're talking to contemporaries at the time, then they're saying, look. This immediate political era ended, and now we're on to different things.
• 44:29
  And we're all equal because of the change in, you know, practical politics.
• 44:34
  Andy Nelson: It made me think of a a film I watched recently called Ridicule, which was a when did that film come out? '96. And that film is about the eighteenth century France, specifically. That's also about the aristocracy and kind of the how corrupt it is and how in order to gain social status, you have to be able to just really be good at witty insults and and like ridiculing people and be able to throw those things back and forth. And it also is is about how quickly that rose and then how it also ended up collapsing.
• 45:12
  And so you can see that in this particular period of European history, there are these moments where there ends up being this, these big social class, you know, different separations. And it all ended up just kind of falling apart because you can't survive on that type of society for very long.
• 45:34
  Pete Wright: Right. Right. Fragile.
• 45:36
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Fragile.
• 45:37
  Pete Wright: Oof.
• 45:38
  Pete Wright: What a movie.
• 45:40
  Andy Nelson: I loved it. Great movie. Glad to have added it to the list. And, you know, I think for fifty years, I think this film definitely holds up kind of speaking to the this whole sense of this particular series. Like, this one really stands out as I I think, as you said, it can you can see how it ties into modern society.
• 45:59
  Like, it really just it fits and it it stands the test of time.
• 46:04
  Pete Wright: For sure. I am I wholeheartedly agree, and I love that we got to watch this after all those crazy Juwan movies.
• 46:16
  Andy Nelson: Alright. Well, we'll be right back. But first, our credits.
• 46:31
  Pete Wright: The next reel is a production of True Story FM, engineering by Andy Nelson, music by Bach performed by Aviva h, Carmel Quartet, Ian Post, Oriole Novella, and Eli Catlin. Andy usually finds all the stats for the awards and numbers at d-numbers.com, boxofficemojo.com, imdb.com, and wikipedia.org. Find the show at truestory.fm. And if your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.
• 47:10
  Andy Nelson: Ah, my dear compatriots, in the grand realm of cinematic discourse, what what, I do hope you'll indulge me as I regale you with the most extraordinary proposition. Allow me to introduce you to a veritable mecca of film appreciation, a digital sanctuary that caters to the most refined and erudite of cinematic palettes, Letterboxd. Letterboxd, Old Bean, is a virtual shangri la for those who possess a truly discerning eye for the kinetic landscape. It is a hallowed haunt with a hot monde of film fanciers flock to catalog, critique, and engage in the most riveting of intellectual repartees regarding the silver screen spectacles that have left an inexpungible impression upon their highly honed headspaces. By procuring a Letterboxd Pro membership, you'll gain ingress to an ad free cinematic Elysium, permitting you to fully submerge yourself in the effulgent realm of film without any plebeian perturbations.
• 48:13
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• 49:26
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• 50:22
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• 50:34
  Pete Wright: How did it an awards season, Andy? This seems like one that probably had some attention paid.
• 50:40
  Andy Nelson: Yes. Definitely attention paid during awards season for this one. It had 17 wins with 14 other nominations. At the Oscars, it had seven nominations, best picture, but lost to one flew over the cuckoo's nest, best director also, to Milo Schwarman for that film, and adapted screenplay as well. It did win best cinematography, best art direction, set decoration, best costume design.
• 51:01
  No surprise on any of those. And it won, as we're talking about the score, best music for scoring of original song and or adaptation. And so, again, that speaks to this period of time where they had a separate score category for this. Because best score, that went to Jaws. But this, it was an adaptation, hence, the win here.
• 51:23
  At the BAFTAs, it was nominated for best film, but lost to Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore. Kubrick won for best director. It was nominated for costume, but lost to the day of the locust. It did win best cinematography. And art direction, it was nominated but lost to rollerball, which we've talked about before.
• 51:37
  And last but not least, at the New York Film Critics Circle Awards, it was nominated for best film but lost to Nashville and also lost best director to Robert Altman for that film as well. So it's interesting. You can see it was recognized, but it was one of those films that, wasn't always winning, like, best picture and things like that.
• 51:54
  Pete Wright: Yeah. I mean, I you you get a sense of that. At least it was in the conversation, but the fact that it it didn't win best picture, that it didn't, you know, win best director, that it didn't hit those high profile awards may be why we're talking about it with such a sense of surprise. Right? That it's it it was kind of a sleeper that gets to sneak back up on us fifty years later.
• 52:18
  I imagine that when you started looking for numbers, you were effectively steamboat Willie on at the wheel. Like, he hee. Like, just really excited because after a long drought, you've got numbers to report.
• 52:41
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. I mean, was hard with those, those Ju On films. Those were very difficult to find anything, but here, I was able to find what I needed. Kubrick had a budget of 12,000,000 for his period film or 70,700,000.0 in today's dollars. The movie premiered in London, 12/11/1975, then opened here in The States, December 18.
• 52:59
  It went on to earn 20,200,000.0 at the box office or a 119,000,000 in today's dollars. All told, that lands it with an adjusted profit per finished minute of 261,000. Not the commercial success Warner Brothers was hoping for, but at least its European grosses helped it get into the green. And honestly, that's, like, speaking to why it might be remembered better now than it was at the time. It really taps into this.
• 53:25
  The critics loved it. It had a lot of recognition, but it wasn't like, audiences really struggled with it at the time, found it boring. Even critics, like, some critics, like, I they were like, it's not as exciting as it could be. So it's interesting. It it took its time, but people have really kind of reappraised it and found a lot more going on.
• 53:48
  Pete Wright: Worth it. Worth it. Worth it. So glad to to, watch this. It's a a lovely addition to the catalog.
• 53:55
  I'm glad you're I'm glad you're taking us down this particular fifty year memory lane.
• 53:59
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. I'm excited to kind of continue this and just see how the rest of this plays with these other films that are all celebrating their fiftieth birthdays this year to see how they hold up. You know? Yep. Alright.
• 54:11
  Well, that is it for today's conversation. Next week, we continue our series looking at Chantal Ackerman's Jean Dillman '23, ten eighty Brussels. And we'll be right back for our ratings.
• 54:37
  Pete Wright: It is a truth universally acknowledged that a gentleman of modest means, upon discovering a collection of fine film podcasts, must immediately contrive to elevate his station by becoming a member. Yes, dear listener. Consider this your invitation to a most distinguished society, the next real family of film podcasts. For a sum so meager, it would scarcely purchase a second rate poet. You may lay claim to exclusive privileges enjoyed only by the well bred and well listened.
• 55:12
  For but $5 a month or 55 a year, if you favor Thrift, you shall receive ad free episodes for one must not be interrupted mid dialogue, early access so you may lord your timely insights over less fortunate peers, extended edition because, like all fine things, our shows improve with length, invitations to live recordings, the modern salon, and entry into the secret parlors of our members only Discord, where ideas are exchanged, alliances forged, and reputations occasionally tarnished. Join now at truestory.fm/join, and let it be said that you were not content to merely listen to great film conversation. No. You possessed it, claimed it, supported it with the vigor of one who's accidentally inherited an estate and intends to ruin it magnificently. The next real membership, for those with impeccable taste and the loosest of purse strings.
• 56:17
  Pete Wright: Letterbox, Andy. Oh, it's letterbox time. I feel like I could predict where this is gonna go. What are you gonna do? Letterbox.com/thenextreal.
• 56:26
  That's where you can find us. We're gonna apportion our hearts and stars. Where where do you land?
• 56:30
  Andy Nelson: This is a a I mean, it's a solid film, and it it it's funny because I knew I had watched it before, and I remembered the cinematography, but I didn't really remember much of the story. And I guess this is one of those films as you watch it, you can go, oh, I can see why I didn't really remember this. The way that it plays. Right? Mhmm.
• 56:51
  And so I I walked in going, I don't know. Like, I don't know how high this is gonna be on my list of Kubrick films for me, but then it just, like, totally took me by surprise. I really loved it. So I'm like, does that mean I should give it five stars, or is it more of a four stars? I feel like I'm gonna go right between and do four and a half and a heart for me.
• 57:11
  That's where I'm gonna land.
• 57:13
  Pete Wright: As you know, I am plagued with certainty in my reviews. There are no half stars. And so I am charged with deciding is this a four star film or a five star film? And on this watch, I have to say, I'm going with the five.
• 57:27
  Andy Nelson: Wow. Look at that. Alright.
• 57:29
  Pete Wright: I know. Five and a heart. Even as it is exactly what it says on the tin, it's a three hour movie that feels like a three hour movie. I am just overall delighted by my experience with Barry Lyndon. Excellent.
• 57:42
  I love it. I recommend it. I want other people to watch it, and they'll probably think that it's too long too.
• 57:50
  Pete Wright: So
• 57:50
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Your wife will probably be like, what? My wife.
• 57:53
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Right.
• 57:55
  Andy Nelson: Just done. This is part two? Yeah. Wait. What?
• 57:58
  Yeah. Alright. Well, that averages out to 4.75 and a heart, which will round up to five stars and a heart over at our letter letter box account, which you can find us there at the next reel. You can find me there at soda greek film. You can find Pete there at Pete Wright.
• 58:16
  So what did you think about Barry Lyndon? We would love to hear your thoughts on this one. Hop into the show talk channel over in our Discord community where we will be talking about the movie this week.
• 58:25
  Pete Wright: When the movie ends.
• 58:27
  Andy Nelson: Our conversation begins. Letterbox giveth, Andrew. As Letterboxd always doeth.
• 58:49
  Pete Wright: So one of the things that you teased in the beginning is that you were looking for the book, and you never you never found it.
• 58:56
  Andy Nelson: I did find it.
• 58:58
  Pete Wright: You did find it, but not one that was accessible by you. Only in Spanish or German. Right. Spanish or German. So I have a review from Fang's gender.
• 59:06
  This is a half star review from Fang's gender, and it starts with this point. It still fascinates me that no one seems to have ever read the book this was based on or read up about the court trial the book was based on. Barry Lyndon has been filtered so much that he's somehow a young Irishman who's seen hardship and war, and that's why he is the way he is. When the truth is, the original guy, Andrew Robinson Stoney, was a member of the Anglo Irish gentry occupying Ireland. He was a blue beard, a corrupt sheriff, a serial rapist, and domestic abuser who lied, cheated, and bribed his way through life.
• 59:38
  He was so egregious, in fact, that he actually died in prison after he was convicted of kidnapping his second wife, Mary Bowes. So maybe not an antihero so much as a figurehead of white cishet guys whose audacity knows no bounds. Also, personally speaking, this is an exceptionally boring movie. I love historical dramas, but they have to have characters who have drive and motivation, not just because the story needs them to. For instance, in real life, Stoney only married Mary Bowes because he slandered her in the newspapers as through an editor he bribed, challenged the editor to a duel, then pretended to be mortally wounded so he could guilt trip Bowes into marrying him on his deathbed.
• 1:00:16
  Then he miraculously recovered, which is a horrific and crazy story, but none of that shows up in this movie. Instead, they just sort of end up together as a foregone conclusion, just waiting for her husband to die. It's bizarre.
• 1:00:34
  Andy Nelson: K. Well, to to be fair Yeah. Kubrick wasn't making the film based on Andrew Robinson Stoney's life. He was basing it on on the Thackrey's novel. So if he's if if this guy should be pissed at anyone, it should be Thackery.
• 1:00:49
  Pete Wright: Let's let's say that. But the other thing I wanna say is I think this movie is better enjoyed as a work of fiction. Because I think it probably is so adjacent to the true story that it's not even worth considering it as an homage. This is about a a guy. And and I will also say the review right below this is a one liner from s Boucher who says, we've gotta stop letting men think they're interesting or capable of anything.
• 1:01:15
  And I think that also says something powerful about the movie. What what do you got?
• 1:01:21
  Andy Nelson: Very funny. Very funny. I have a five star review by Reese who has this to say. If I lived in the seventeen hundreds, I too would just go on absolutely every side mission imaginable.
• 1:01:32
  Pete Wright: That's exactly it. Yet another contemporary interpretation of
• 1:01:40
  Pete Wright: Barry Lyndon.
• 1:01:41
  Pete Wright: Indeed. Thanks, Letterboxd.