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The Fantastic Miss Piggy Podcast - Episode 8: Brian Jay Jones Interview · Muppet Fan Podcasts with ToughPigs.com

• 0:01
  One of my favorite Miss Piggy moments is the scene in The
• 0:03
  Muppet Movie. After the big fight in the barn,
• 0:06
  Piggy saves Kermit from Doctor Craftsman, and they're about to
• 0:09
  leave when the phone rings. Kermit answers the phone.
• 0:12
  It turns out to be Piggy's agent, who tells her that she's
• 0:14
  booked a commercial. She tells her agent she'll take
• 0:16
  the job. She hangs up, and after the most
• 0:18
  exquisitely timed pause, she says goodbye and she leaves
• 0:22
  Kermit behind. Now that's a very funny moment,
• 0:25
  but the thing that I really like is that her exit literally
• 0:28
  breaks the film. The movie that The Muppets are
• 0:30
  watching disintegrates before our eyes because The Swedish
• 0:33
  Chef is having some kind of problem in the projection room.
• 0:36
  So there's a little scene in the theatre.
• 0:37
  The film starts rolling again. Fozzie Bear sings America the
• 0:41
  Beautiful for not much of a reason, and then they spot Miss
• 0:44
  Piggy hitchhiking by the side of the road.
• 0:46
  Fozzie and Kermit stop to pick her up.
• 0:48
  She gets in the car. Movie continues.
• 0:50
  Now, just considering the storyline of the movie, there is
• 0:53
  no point to that little plot cul-de-sac.
• 0:56
  Miss Piggy leaves Kermit and leaves the film, and then a
• 0:58
  couple minutes later she just comes back and it makes
• 1:01
  absolutely no difference to the story.
• 1:04
  Really. They just wanted a funny piggy
• 1:05
  exit and another funny piggy entrance.
• 1:08
  And if that breaks the movie, then it breaks the movie.
• 1:10
  So that is what Miss Piggy is like.
• 1:12
  And today on the podcast, I am talking to the charming Brian J
• 1:16
  Jones, author of Jim Henson, the biography about how this
• 1:19
  incredible character took on a life of her own.
• 1:22
  I can't give you anything but love, baby.
• 1:30
  That's the only thing I've plenty of, baby.
• 1:37
  Kissy, kissy and welcome to another episode of the fantastic
• 1:40
  Miss Piggy Podcast. I'm Danny Horn, and this podcast
• 1:43
  chronicles my journey to learn everything there is to know
• 1:45
  about that divine swine, the incomparable Miss Piggy.
• 1:48
  Today, I am very excited to have as my guest the attractive and
• 1:51
  talented Brian J Jones, author of Jim Henson, the biography, as
• 1:55
  well as biographies of Washington Irving, George Lucas
• 1:58
  and Doctor Seuss. Brian Kissy, Kissy.
• 2:00
  Welcome to the show. Manny Kissy kissy right back at
• 2:02
  you. I'm so happy to have you here
• 2:04
  this. Is going to be great.
• 2:06
  Let's go. Excellent.
• 2:08
  Do you want to tell the people about the Jim Henson biography?
• 2:11
  Sure. I mean, it's hard to believe.
• 2:13
  It's been 10 years now getting on to 11 years that the
• 2:16
  biography's come out. It was a project that took me
• 2:18
  about five years to research and write.
• 2:21
  It's first sort of, I mean there's there's been books about
• 2:24
  Jim and his work before, but this is sort of the first first
• 2:26
  comprehensive, sort of grown up biography of Jim Henson to come
• 2:28
  along. Possible due to the fact that
• 2:31
  the Hensons were very generous with their time and their
• 2:33
  resources. And I got to really dig deep
• 2:36
  into the Henson archives and I got to see a lot of things that
• 2:39
  Muppet fans hadn't seen before and talked to some people, I
• 2:41
  don't know what they'd heard of before.
• 2:43
  Just a really, really a really deep dive into Jim's life and
• 2:47
  work that I hope even the most hardcore Muppet fans will pick
• 2:50
  up a thing or two out of the book they may maybe have never
• 2:52
  heard of before. Oh, absolutely.
• 2:54
  Yeah. It's fantastic.
• 2:55
  It's, you know, it really enriches like our appreciation
• 2:58
  of the work to really understand the personality and the
• 3:00
  relationships. And there's a lot of, there's so
• 3:02
  much of that in the book. Yeah, I I always talk about even
• 3:06
  with even with people like Washington Irving, like you
• 3:08
  can't understand the life unless you look at the work and you
• 3:10
  can't understand the work unless you look at the life.
• 3:12
  It's sort of this person you got of both and and Jim is
• 3:15
  definitely that way. And especially in that the guy
• 3:18
  you know from the time he was in high school is just constantly,
• 3:22
  constantly in motion, constantly pitching, constantly coming with
• 3:26
  ideas constantly. It's exhausting.
• 3:29
  So I just, you know, it's just the work was so much a part of
• 3:33
  who he was, even as he was with so much part of his own work.
• 3:37
  Yeah, to me, that's the thing that you really bring out in the
• 3:39
  sense that, like in every period of his life you're like, OK, And
• 3:43
  here's the three things that he has going on right now and the
• 3:46
  thing that he's sort of thinking big picture about later on.
• 3:49
  Yeah, and and I know we have to get, I know we have to get back
• 3:51
  and talk about Miss Figi. But like, it's just what's
• 3:53
  always so incredible to me was his ability to sort of just walk
• 3:56
  away, like when he his biggest thing.
• 3:59
  You always talk about how projects were lovely and how
• 4:01
  they were fun. You know, the month is the
• 4:02
  biggest show in the world. It takes it off the air, 'cause
• 4:05
  he's he has to go up to do movies and do something like
• 4:07
  Fraggle Rock, Gigantic hit an international global phenomenon,
• 4:10
  takes it off the air so we can go off and do other things.
• 4:12
  Only Jim, and I think it was Dave Golds who told me this was
• 4:15
  something they said he just, he like he had that amazing ability
• 4:18
  to just walk away. Really, really, you know, like
• 4:22
  didn't fetishize any project point that he was like not gonna
• 4:26
  let it go. Really fascinating.
• 4:28
  Yeah, it's always thinking ahead to the next thing.
• 4:30
  Yeah. Well, at the beginning of the
• 4:32
  show I like to say something nice about Miss Piggy.
• 4:35
  I feel like every podcast should start that way.
• 4:37
  You know, like love it or leave it, sort of.
• 4:39
  You know, before, before we get started, let's say something
• 4:42
  nice about Miss Piggy. You'd be amazed how rare it
• 4:44
  actually is. So Brian, I'll ask you what's a
• 4:46
  favorite Miss Piggy moment for you.
• 4:48
  Well, so for me it it deals more with the creative side of
• 4:54
  things. And what I love about Miss Piggy
• 4:57
  is how she was such a study in stick to itiveness and time and
• 5:03
  happy accident. And that she didn't emerge fully
• 5:06
  formed. That this was a puppet that was
• 5:09
  a back row character and then was passed back and forth
• 5:12
  between performers and you know. And then Frank Oz finally gets
• 5:15
  her and doesn't still quite know quite what to do with her and
• 5:18
  has that magic moment where you know as as the famous story
• 5:21
  which is true that that she's supposed to slap Kermit and he
• 5:24
  turns it into a karate chop and even and even Jerry Joel says
• 5:27
  there's a moment you knew that the character arrived.
• 5:31
  So I just, I love her as like sort of the ultimate Muppet
• 5:34
  example of like time and perseverance and finding that
• 5:37
  character But again, such a happy accident.
• 5:39
  And the other thing I really love about Piggy and and this is
• 5:42
  another sort of behind the scenes thing.
• 5:43
  But Michael Breath, God bless him, he just he adored that
• 5:48
  character and she was such a such a muse to him.
• 5:52
  I mean, he has that great painting he does of her where
• 5:55
  you see her bedroom and Kermit slippers are under her bed for
• 5:59
  crying. Out loud.
• 6:00
  I mean I I just I love what she brings.
• 6:03
  Mike Frith who just like draws and does it's so beautifully
• 6:06
  done but just clearly adored that character and really could
• 6:09
  be inspired by her. So so I so I I love Miss Piggy
• 6:12
  for those reasons. I I just I'll I'll stick with
• 6:15
  sort of those creative reasons on her.
• 6:16
  I just, I really, really love how that character came about
• 6:20
  and then the way she sort of inspired, you know, people like
• 6:22
  Oz come up with these backstories, but Michael Fritz
• 6:24
  as the artist just really inspired a lot of people inside
• 6:27
  the organization even. So the thing that was amazing
• 6:30
  about what Frith did with Miss Piggy was to to bring that into
• 6:34
  publishing to create sort of essentially this like second
• 6:36
  wave of material that wasn't even really Muppet material.
• 6:40
  Like it wasn't Muppet Show material specifically, like the
• 6:42
  calendars and getting into Miss Piggy's Guide to Life.
• 6:45
  Yeah. And and so creating, you know,
• 6:49
  more merchandising for for the Henson organization, but that
• 6:52
  that was, you know, I I told this story before, but I I had
• 6:55
  to really laugh years ago when there was, you know, The Muppets
• 6:57
  started advertising I think for Toyota during the Super Bowl and
• 7:00
  people were hands about Jim Henson and commercial.
• 7:04
  And I thought, man, the Muppet Empire was built on the back of
• 7:06
  commercials going all the way back to Woodland Coffee.
• 7:08
  And you know, Michael, Michael kind of did that with them with
• 7:11
  publishing. It was, it was money on the
• 7:12
  table, essentially. They had not really moved into
• 7:15
  that market. So it was just another, you
• 7:17
  know, another another example of them, them figuring out ways to
• 7:20
  make Muppets more accessible and more available, but also always
• 7:24
  maintaining that quality control.
• 7:25
  That's one of those things that Michael Frith does very well,
• 7:27
  that Jim Henson did very well, like containing that quality
• 7:30
  control. Not, you know, not not just
• 7:32
  putting your name on everything, which might be one reason why we
• 7:34
  hadn't seen Muppet calendars before.
• 7:36
  You know, they just didn't see a way in a in a way that they
• 7:38
  thought was classy and, you know, deserving of The Muppets.
• 7:41
  A funny thing, kind of the the real early merchandise.
• 7:44
  It took them forever to get a Miss Piggy doll out.
• 7:47
  Fisher Price was doing like they did a current and a fozzie.
• 7:50
  And then they started doing characters like they did Scooter
• 7:52
  and Ralph an animal and the Miss Piggy doll didn't come out.
• 7:55
  And it was like a big deal. Like two years later when when
• 7:58
  finally the first like Fisher Price Miss Piggy Puppet comes
• 8:01
  out. And it my interpretation of that
• 8:04
  is just it took them that long to figure out how to do that
• 8:07
  right? Because they they cared so much
• 8:08
  about the quality control, they weren't going to put something
• 8:10
  out that just didn't look right. Yeah, I mean you're I I think
• 8:13
  you're absolutely right. I sort of like if you're doing
• 8:15
  like you know a a a line of like Peanuts plushies or something,
• 8:18
  you don't do Snoopy for the longest time and everyone's kind
• 8:20
  of like, why are you not releasing like one of your
• 8:22
  biggest hitters? And I think you're right.
• 8:23
  They wanted to be sure she was done.
• 8:25
  Now, did they ultimately do her with a with a hard head?
• 8:29
  Yeah, the for the for the initial puppet.
• 8:31
  Yeah, it was sort of like a a plasticky head.
• 8:34
  Later on, some folks kind of figured out how to make up plush
• 8:37
  Miss Piggy Head, but it it took a while.
• 8:39
  She's real hard to do in plush. Yeah.
• 8:40
  So I think that could be part of it right there.
• 8:42
  You know, she doesn't put herself to, you know, to the to
• 8:44
  the softer, which may be indicative of Miss Piggy in
• 8:47
  general, doesn't sort of lend herself to the softer, you know,
• 8:50
  edges that, yeah, workers do so. Yeah.
• 8:52
  And So what do you think about kind of like how they put
• 8:54
  together the, the characters for for The Muppet Show?
• 8:58
  Like, what was Henson trying to do?
• 9:00
  Well, so yeah, I mean, he was trying to create a a, a troop on
• 9:05
  there, sort of. And you know, we always forget
• 9:07
  what a golden age of variety shows the 70s is.
• 9:12
  Yeah, it's like it's a perfect storm for doing something with a
• 9:14
  group, especially of characters because every variety shown that
• 9:18
  from Carol Burnett to Donny and Marie to Barbara Manderelle,
• 9:20
  whatever. They always had sort of a core
• 9:22
  group around them that you could you bring.
• 9:24
  You bring in the funny one and you had, you know, like Barbara
• 9:26
  Mandrell's, you had the sister that was sort of the doofus one
• 9:28
  and then she had, you know, so I always had everybody filling
• 9:30
  certain roles on all these shows, and I think Jim sort of
• 9:33
  had that in mind for The Muppet Show.
• 9:36
  But initially Fozzie was supposed to be Frank Ozz's main
• 9:39
  character sort of you know, from its right hand man and Piggy was
• 9:42
  was a back row character. You know coming off the sex and
• 9:45
  violence was not really a character they had developed or
• 9:47
  thought about. And so you know the the main
• 9:50
  characters were going to be Jim performing Kermit, which again
• 9:53
  puts Rolf in the back, which always sort of breaks my heart
• 9:55
  into the Henson's heart as well I think.
• 9:58
  But Rolf was going to be Oz's kind of main character.
• 10:00
  I think Jerry was primarily still in there as the utility
• 10:03
  hitter or anything else because he had been.
• 10:06
  He's not. Is he there in the in the first
• 10:08
  couple of shows, Danny? I think he's not.
• 10:10
  Yeah. You don't see Floyd or anybody.
• 10:12
  Yeah. I think for the like the two
• 10:14
  that they filmed as a pilot, Jerry, it's sort of mysteriously
• 10:16
  not there. Yes.
• 10:17
  And then you've got Dave doing Gonzo anyway.
• 10:19
  You've got sort of that core group coming in again to have
• 10:22
  sort of the the, you know, the the Primary universe around
• 10:26
  which everything else is gonna revolve.
• 10:28
  But Piggy's not, you know, was not envisioned as one of the
• 10:30
  lead characters. Piggy doesn't really exist at
• 10:32
  that time. So she's not, she's not fought
• 10:35
  out or anything and starts to starts to evolve as the show
• 10:39
  moves. And you know, that was one of
• 10:41
  the things that again, when I was talking, I think it's
• 10:43
  Michael Frith again who said this.
• 10:44
  He said one of the great things about doing television in the
• 10:47
  70s, especially syndication, was you did have that element of
• 10:50
  time that they weren't going to take your show off the air.
• 10:52
  Like they shooted after 13 episodes or something that they
• 10:56
  were, you know, they still other 26 and they still had time and
• 10:58
  they were even going to go into another season.
• 11:00
  And The Muppet Show is, I think we all will agree like doesn't
• 11:03
  really find its footing until that next season.
• 11:07
  But you know they had time. And so as things they were able
• 11:10
  to pick up on things that they thought were working and discard
• 11:13
  stuff that they thought that they thought weren't and that
• 11:15
  gave them time to when, you know, when, when Piggy starts
• 11:18
  moving as a character to start to figure that out.
• 11:21
  Even if they don't get it right the first time or the 5th time,
• 11:24
  they're still figuring her out as it goes.
• 11:26
  And that's how that that time luxury is something that you
• 11:28
  just don't get in modern day television.
• 11:31
  When do you think they sort of realized that there was
• 11:33
  something actually special about Miss Piggy?
• 11:35
  Well, I mean, Jerry, Joel will tell you it's the karate chop
• 11:37
  that that's the thing else well, how?
• 11:40
  About like kind of when when they saw it was connecting with
• 11:42
  an audience. Gosh.
• 11:43
  You know, I really, I can't. I can't actually answer that.
• 11:45
  I don't know. You know, I think internally
• 11:47
  they, they knew it right then. They knew.
• 11:49
  They they knew they had something because as Jerry Joel
• 11:51
  said, everybody, everyone stopped what they were doing.
• 11:54
  Like they knew they'd found something.
• 11:56
  You know, they Roles has that great story about, you know, how
• 11:58
  Gonzo arrived when people stopped reading their newspapers
• 12:01
  around him. So, you know, I think, I think
• 12:03
  even just in production they knew, they knew they'd found
• 12:06
  something. They might not have been sure
• 12:07
  what it was yet. And doesn't Oz talk about her
• 12:10
  being like a fashion model who's a truck driver or something like
• 12:13
  that? I mean that's sort of his first
• 12:15
  take on her. When that karate chop lands,
• 12:19
  he's kind of like, OK, this is it.
• 12:20
  This is like somebody who thinks she's very glamorous but is is
• 12:23
  going to, you know torpedo you with a a right hook.
• 12:26
  And that in itself I think is funny.
• 12:27
  But then what Oz does, which is typical of Oz is he starts
• 12:31
  because he's got time is he starts trying to figure that
• 12:34
  character out. And Oz, to the, you know,
• 12:37
  frustration, I think of Richard Hunt and to the amusement of
• 12:40
  Dave Bowles would write down these very elaborate back
• 12:44
  stories and histories of the characters you know he'd done it
• 12:46
  for. He's.
• 12:46
  Really thinking about it, Yeah. Yeah, he done it for.
• 12:48
  Somebody like you know Marvin Suggs even and you know and and
• 12:52
  Sam the Eagle and it's just but you know Oz talks about to this
• 12:57
  day and it's and it was Jim Henson's been telling me as well
• 12:59
  it's that character was king are not funny until you start making
• 13:03
  their characters funny. Character's what's funny?
• 13:06
  Puppets aren't funny. The Muppet characters are funny.
• 13:10
  And I think you know Oz. Oz knows that character is king
• 13:13
  and he starts really he he he he's not gonna just cut loose, I
• 13:17
  think, until he knows. That he really and.
• 13:20
  That's what's, you know, that's what's so great about the way
• 13:23
  somebody like Frank Oz performs. And Jimmy even talked about
• 13:25
  this. That's why he handed Oz the keys
• 13:26
  to Yoda. As he said, you know, Frank
• 13:30
  Frank's an actor. You know, I mean, you want
• 13:32
  somebody, like you don't just need a performer.
• 13:33
  You need somebody who really thinks about this.
• 13:36
  And Oz, you know to this day, will tell you that he came up
• 13:39
  with Yoda's inverted syntax because he thought it sounded
• 13:41
  very elegant and old. Oh, wow.
• 13:44
  But that's something, you know, Frank really thinks a lot about
• 13:46
  these kinds of things, and I think that's one of the reasons
• 13:49
  he's so funny is because he's thought about the character's
• 13:54
  background and the character's motivations, their family life,
• 13:58
  that he knows exactly how that character's gonna react at any
• 14:01
  time. I think that's one of the
• 14:02
  reasons Piggy is so funny. I think it's the reason Fozzie's
• 14:05
  so funny. I think it's just the reason
• 14:06
  characters that Frank Oz particularly does are so funny,
• 14:09
  because they are really well thought out, even though they
• 14:12
  look very simple. Yeah, And it's funny that Fozzie
• 14:16
  Fozzie comes so close to kind of having like that life inside of
• 14:21
  him. And it's essentially like the
• 14:22
  big thing that Frank says about Miss Piggy is that she really
• 14:25
  wants to be loved, and that drives kind of everything she's
• 14:29
  doing. And it's actually exactly the
• 14:30
  same about Fozzie. That's.
• 14:32
  And he even says that about Fozzie the bear just wants to be
• 14:34
  loved and appreciated. Yeah.
• 14:36
  And I think Miss Piggy sort of had the extra thing that she had
• 14:39
  besides just sort of that in inner motivation was then she
• 14:42
  had, she had Kermit, she had this like story, a relationship
• 14:46
  that she wanted something that's going to kind of push her
• 14:48
  forward. Yeah, what was it?
• 14:50
  Frank says. How she covets that little green
• 14:52
  body. Something like.
• 14:53
  This, yeah. But, you know, and I think
• 14:54
  that's part of what makes that character so funny is, you know,
• 14:57
  especially because Kermit, with the power dynamic in that
• 15:00
  relationship, is hilarious, even though he's the boss.
• 15:02
  I mean, it's like she could break him in half, but it's
• 15:05
  just, it's such a funny power dynamic because you know, it Did
• 15:07
  I? Didn't even think they were
• 15:09
  feeling kind of, as they saw Miss Piggy emerging as like her
• 15:11
  own phenomenon. Well, you know, I I think they
• 15:17
  realized she was taking over kind of on her own, even.
• 15:20
  I mean, there are never people to say the puppets have a life
• 15:22
  of their own. The gym's never precious in that
• 15:23
  regard. But you know, I think they knew
• 15:26
  they they had a juggernaut on their hand.
• 15:27
  I think it's the reason Muppet Caper is primarily her movie.
• 15:33
  He's just like she was the one by that point.
• 15:35
  She was the one people were gonna come to see, you know, And
• 15:37
  she is very prominent on the poster.
• 15:39
  Yeah. I mean, she's prominent on the
• 15:40
  Muppet movie poster as well. But in the context of Kermit in
• 15:43
  the in in the Muppet Caper, like she's on the motorcycle, like,
• 15:45
  but like it is like Miss Piggy is the star of the show.
• 15:49
  And I think, I think they knew that.
• 15:50
  Now the the stories I love about, again, internally is was
• 15:55
  it who was telling? It might have been Oz again
• 15:56
  telling the story. But they said that was, you
• 15:58
  know, it was so funny. No, it might have been.
• 15:59
  I think it was Bonnie Bonnie Erickson telling the story, who
• 16:01
  built Miss Piggy talking about how they would, you know, they'd
• 16:04
  have Life magazine call and say, well, you know, we want to do a
• 16:06
  photo shoot with with Miss Piggy.
• 16:08
  And so Bonnie said, you know, let me get on.
• 16:10
  Then they'd call Frank and make sure Frank was available and so
• 16:12
  on and and they'd be all ready to go.
• 16:14
  And they said they'd get all the way down to the beach to do the
• 16:17
  photo shoot. Then then the photographer say,
• 16:18
  OK, we need Miss Piggy running along the beach here And and
• 16:21
  they'd say, OK, well we need to, you know, dig a trench here now
• 16:23
  so we could put the performers on the cover And they were like,
• 16:25
  what what Like she was so, so real to them.
• 16:30
  They like, they completely forgot she was.
• 16:32
  She had to be, you know, manipulated by others.
• 16:34
  They thought they could take her out there and think she would
• 16:36
  run down the beach. You know she's just, she's so
• 16:40
  convincing as a career. You know, Again, do you get.
• 16:42
  That she does not have legs. Yeah.
• 16:43
  Yeah. Yeah, it's usually about the
• 16:45
  lower half for the most part, you know, you know, But it's,
• 16:47
  you know, it's like the stories they tell about Irvin Kirschner
• 16:50
  directing Yoda. He would tell Yoda to move 4
• 16:51
  feet to his left. And I was just like, there's no
• 16:53
  hole in the floor over there. So, you know, the characters
• 16:57
  just take over, you know, I love, I love the Muppet.
• 16:59
  The Muppet directors of the TV show talking about how they'd
• 17:02
  just call down the floor and they would give direction to
• 17:03
  Gonzo because they said it was just easier at that point.
• 17:07
  Right to give. Direction to The Muppets to
• 17:09
  rather than to the Muppet Performer.
• 17:10
  So, so, but I think, you know, she was one that almost
• 17:13
  literally had a life of her own after that, that people thought
• 17:15
  they could just invite her to a party and she would come in and
• 17:17
  walk around not realizing you had to invite Frank Oz to the
• 17:19
  party. Once you get to the Muppet
• 17:21
  Movie, she's got kind of a funny role in that they make sure to
• 17:25
  give her like a big entrance and they give her some romantic
• 17:27
  moments and they give her a big action scene.
• 17:29
  But ultimately, it's not like a romantic movie.
• 17:32
  Right. The story is not and.
• 17:34
  It's not her. It's not her movie.
• 17:35
  I mean, yeah, yeah. And.
• 17:37
  So then sort of the the film kind of ends and it's focused on
• 17:40
  Kermit and Piggy's just kind of like part of the the team of
• 17:43
  friends that he's got, that he's assembled.
• 17:45
  Yeah. But but you get to the second
• 17:47
  one caper and she's front. And, you know, I mean, there's
• 17:50
  a, there was an interview with Jerry, Joel and I I think I
• 17:53
  actually used this line in the book because it's, it was really
• 17:56
  important, I think to him and the rest of the writers talking
• 17:59
  about how you have to be really careful with her, 'cause they
• 18:01
  were saying if you you, you can't, you have to make her
• 18:04
  tough, you have to make her aggressive, but you can't make
• 18:07
  her a bitch. And he said mainly because that
• 18:10
  upsets not her dynamic but the dynamic of the entire Muppet
• 18:14
  organization, that you that you've got to be really careful
• 18:17
  with her on that. And, you know, and then that is,
• 18:19
  I think, you know, they would talk about her having a life of
• 18:21
  her own, but you had to, you know, it's like people who write
• 18:23
  novels talk about the characters getting away from them.
• 18:25
  I think that Jerry, Joel and his team writing, writing The Muppet
• 18:28
  Show, you know, were constantly worried about her getting away
• 18:31
  from them in that regard. You had to really, you had to
• 18:33
  really watch the way you would write her because it, you know,
• 18:36
  having her, having her, you know, throw Kermit around is
• 18:39
  funny. But it can't be too aggressive
• 18:42
  or mean spirit. Or do you lose the spirit of the
• 18:44
  Muppet? Has to be.
• 18:45
  Like some kind of warmth. Yeah, I mean it's you know, it's
• 18:48
  one of those things they, you know, they always talk about the
• 18:50
  what works with The Muppets is, you know at the end of the day
• 18:52
  they are going to come back together again.
• 18:54
  And you know, I I would think no matter how rough and tumble
• 18:56
  Piggy got, as long as you knew they all came back together.
• 18:59
  But I think it they you just had to be really careful.
• 19:01
  I think Jerry Jones particularly, I know, said you
• 19:03
  had to be very careful with her when you were riding her.
• 19:06
  And unfortunately, I think that is something that once they they
• 19:08
  made the sitcom in 2015 that they just straight up got wrong.
• 19:13
  They did not, they did not take that seriously.
• 19:15
  She really did just become cold and kind of not close to
• 19:18
  anybody. You.
• 19:19
  Can make Miss Piggy a diva, but it has to be done in sort of a
• 19:24
  self aware way, if that makes some sense.
• 19:27
  Yeah. Like she, you know, she has to
• 19:30
  know that she believes she's a diva God.
• 19:32
  I'm not explaining that well. But you know, she has to almost
• 19:35
  be in on the joke even though it's not really a joke to her.
• 19:38
  I mean it's you know, she, you know, I always loved Oz was
• 19:41
  always so good about and the current performers just but you
• 19:43
  know how she's always like touching her hair, you know,
• 19:44
  combing her hair back when she talked.
• 19:46
  I mean that's like she's in on it.
• 19:48
  So. So yeah, I think, I think that's
• 19:50
  one of the things they lost in The Muppets and I think we're
• 19:52
  coming back to when that show got cancelled, is they realized
• 19:55
  like she, she can't be, she can't be a mean girl.
• 19:59
  Right. You know she's got to.
• 20:00
  Be a somewhat conflicted me girl.
• 20:03
  But you know, she she could be the boss but she she just she
• 20:06
  can't be mean or you lose. You lose something about Piggy
• 20:09
  and that. Right, Yeah, then.
• 20:11
  Then I think, I think as a watcher, then there was a
• 20:12
  viewer. You're not.
• 20:13
  You're not rooting for her when that happens.
• 20:16
  Right. When she's just like can't come
• 20:17
  back. Yeah.
• 20:19
  And there's this sort of a tragic episode where where it's
• 20:21
  tragic for me seeing her when they go and do karaoke and she
• 20:26
  like is making friends with all the all the characters.
• 20:29
  And then at the end to kind of bring it back to because it's a
• 20:32
  sitcom, bring it back to to baseline.
• 20:35
  They chop her out of that. And Kermit kind of convinces her
• 20:38
  that like, no, you can't have, you need, you know, this
• 20:40
  boundary, this barrier between you and the other people.
• 20:43
  Yeah. I mean, Kermit has that battery
• 20:45
  between him and the other people, so you know, but which?
• 20:48
  I think was a was a problem for The Muppets as well, like just
• 20:52
  not having, not having the kind of that warmth and connection,
• 20:54
  yeah. Yeah, and and again it gets back
• 20:57
  to character as king on that. I mean, the setup is is part of
• 21:01
  it, but the setup by itself is not is not enough.
• 21:05
  So going into the Great Muppet Caper, that's one of my one of
• 21:08
  my favorite parts of your book is when you go into how much
• 21:11
  work they had to do to get Miss Piggy in the pool.
• 21:14
  Right and. Swimming.
• 21:16
  Yeah. I I love you know Jim always
• 21:19
  wanted in his in almost any project but particularly he
• 21:22
  always wondered what he called the how they do that moment and
• 21:25
  and that's really true with Piggy in the swimming pool and
• 21:29
  and and I like I mean Bonnie Erickson I think still has scars
• 21:33
  to this day from it it's it's it was all about it it she became
• 21:38
  partly a science project because you know if you just took a
• 21:41
  regular Miss Piggy puppet and stuck it under the water the
• 21:44
  foam head would just fill up with water.
• 21:45
  So kind of a big sponge so you couldn't use that and you could
• 21:49
  make the plastic too hard. You know if you want to build
• 21:52
  out something more waterproof and and and harder the mouth
• 21:55
  wouldn't move. So you know so I I think they
• 21:58
  said they had something like almost 40 heads.
• 22:00
  I think I can't move the exact number but they just were
• 22:02
  constantly building heads. And finally when they stumbled
• 22:05
  upon sort of the right combination of flexible and and
• 22:08
  firm and waterproof and so on. But they said you could get
• 22:12
  about 11 big mouth movement out of it and another head on.
• 22:15
  So they and and so they they it was Muppet labs.
• 22:19
  You know it was just the science project trying to find the right
• 22:21
  the the exact right kind of head.
• 22:23
  And then once you had it, you're only going to get about one or
• 22:25
  two uses out of it because it was going to crack.
• 22:28
  I, I and I think it was Bonnie or some of the other builders
• 22:30
  who were saying that, you know, once the filming was done and
• 22:32
  they had several heads leftover, there was great joy to be found
• 22:35
  in smashing the heads that were leftover, 'cause they were so
• 22:37
  glad to be done with. So frustrated.
• 22:39
  Yeah, but. It's but, you know the Dang.
• 22:42
  It really works on screen, but it's it's Oz giving his all.
• 22:46
  You know? Oz tells great stories about how
• 22:47
  he he would, you know, suck. He would get into a blue a scuba
• 22:51
  suit that was the same color as the bottom of the pool and he
• 22:54
  would just hold himself on the bottom of the pool, I think just
• 22:56
  holding a a cinder block just to keep himself down, and then
• 23:00
  would just start before take a big gulp of air and then perform
• 23:02
  as long as he could. The other thing he said was he
• 23:06
  said the pool was warm, that wasn't an issue, but he said the
• 23:08
  room. But then the room became very
• 23:10
  humid and like a rain forest and I think it was cold outside and
• 23:13
  he got a massive ear infection from it from just being
• 23:16
  underwater in that, in that heat, in that warm water for so
• 23:19
  long. He said it gave him a really bad
• 23:20
  ear infection from it. But you know, at having the
• 23:23
  speakers underwater so Oz can hear the water at all times.
• 23:27
  But it's also, you know, the typical Muppet trip.
• 23:29
  It's it's careful editing. You cut away, you know, gone
• 23:32
  hermits showing how you answer the phone.
• 23:34
  You know you cut away before you pick every.
• 23:37
  Shot is a special effect every. Shot is a special effect and the
• 23:39
  swimming pool is is sort of that as well and it's to the power of
• 23:43
  Jim Henson's direction in that movie that it all comes out so
• 23:46
  seamless. And you know this to make The
• 23:49
  Muppets in a movie you need a director who understands on The
• 23:51
  Muppets work. You have the guy for that one.
• 23:54
  And so I mean that is it is as seamless as it gets.
• 23:56
  It's so brilliantly, beautifully and hilariously done.
• 24:01
  But like I said, Frank Oz like gave gave his all for that.
• 24:05
  And so brilliantly, I'm not sure that when people went to see it
• 24:09
  that they even that the the performers even got kind of like
• 24:13
  the credit for doing all of that work.
• 24:16
  No, because you just like. It they did it so well, you just
• 24:19
  believe that Miss Piggy's doing a water ballet.
• 24:21
  It's. It's Life magazine asking Miss
• 24:23
  Piggy to run along the beach. I mean we we went in as viewers
• 24:25
  and we're just like, oh, Miss Piggy was swimming and we didn't
• 24:28
  appreciate how hard that was and how hard it is to make it look.
• 24:31
  I mean we we tend to do that with most Muppet projects.
• 24:34
  We don't appreciate how actually really hard that all is like.
• 24:37
  Where the performers are, are squeezed into.
• 24:40
  Yeah, yeah. And you know, I would love
• 24:42
  seeing the footage, you know, you know Oz or Jim on a talk
• 24:45
  show when they're interviewing Kermit and they're kind of like
• 24:47
  screwed in underneath the things.
• 24:49
  And I just, I, you know, I I posted something on Facebook
• 24:52
  recently. People were talking about how it
• 24:53
  must have just really hurt their shoulders and their arms, you
• 24:56
  know, to to to perform that long with their hands on their head.
• 24:59
  I always talk about how I can't if I hang a light, you know,
• 25:02
  over my head for three minutes. My shoulders are wrecked for a
• 25:04
  week, but Oz did say famously if you're not uncomfortable, you're
• 25:08
  doing it wrong. And boy boy was he uncomfortable
• 25:11
  during the filming of Great Muppet Keepers.
• 25:13
  Yeah, for. Sure.
• 25:14
  And that was kind of like great Muppet Keeper then is is
• 25:17
  essentially like peak moment for Miss Piggy and I think kind of a
• 25:21
  peak moment for The Muppets as well.
• 25:23
  Yeah, I mean. I'm.
• 25:25
  I mean it's well known people, but my favorite one is is Muppet
• 25:27
  Takes Manhattan actually and one of my bigger with with Muppet
• 25:30
  Capers. It is so piggy centric when she
• 25:33
  takes over I, I, I just I prefer Manhattan because we're getting
• 25:36
  back to more of that mix of Muppets and she's and she's such
• 25:40
  a great character in Muppets take Manhattan and and like very
• 25:42
  sweet in it you know at times 2. So that's that's more the piggy
• 25:46
  that that I respond to. I'm not saying it's the right
• 25:48
  interpretation. We all know what we think is
• 25:50
  their their right interpretation of Piggy.
• 25:51
  But she comes close to what I think is the right version of
• 25:54
  Piggy and Muppets Take Manhattan.
• 25:55
  Where she's she is really. She's really focused on the
• 25:58
  relationship in in Muppets Take Manhattan as opposed to kind of
• 26:02
  being the the superstar, whereas like Great Muppet Caper, she
• 26:06
  wants to be famous as well as kind of relationship with
• 26:08
  Kermit. She wants to be a model.
• 26:09
  She wants everyone to look at her and that that gets real dial
• 26:12
  down, I think in Muppets Take Manhattan and in.
• 26:14
  Muppet Caper. I mean she gets to come in and
• 26:15
  save the day on that one. Like she's just she's, you know,
• 26:18
  she's you know what what is the Shakespeare play I was talking
• 26:20
  about like the characters in every scene.
• 26:23
  There's just not a moment almost as she's not on screen somehow.
• 26:25
  So and and again I've people, I know people love that movie for
• 26:30
  that. It it, it doesn't work quite as
• 26:33
  well for me. I think.
• 26:34
  I think Manhattan's better in that regard.
• 26:35
  I think you have to be like a real big piggy fan.
• 26:37
  It's my favorite. Yeah.
• 26:39
  And there are people who are, you know, who, well, there you
• 26:41
  go. I mean people, their favorite.
• 26:42
  And partly because if you're a Piggy fan, you're going to love
• 26:44
  caper. Like, she just sends it a little
• 26:47
  over the top for me. But but you know, like you said,
• 26:49
  they they, you know, as we were discussing, they knew they had
• 26:52
  lightning in a bottle and they were going to make the most out
• 26:54
  of it. It was striking while the air
• 26:56
  and was hot for sure. And any other cliches I could
• 26:58
  throw in they think of, but you know, they they really, I mean,
• 27:01
  she was, she was the star of the moment.
• 27:04
  And so of course you're going to go all in.
• 27:06
  And it worked fantastically. Do you know anything about the
• 27:09
  fantastic Miss Piggy show? This is kind of like after they
• 27:11
  decided to to stop The Muppet Show.
• 27:13
  They did give her kind of one big special to kind of wrap that
• 27:18
  up. I wish I knew more about that
• 27:21
  'cause that's 'cause that's the one that has Andy Kaufman on it.
• 27:23
  Yeah, it's. So it's so awesome in.
• 27:26
  Character the entire time and and apparently like stayed in
• 27:29
  character almost like, you know, like like Daniel Day Lewis does
• 27:33
  like almost the entire time that they were on.
• 27:38
  So no, I don't know. I don't know much more beyond.
• 27:40
  I don't know what the intention was with that.
• 27:42
  I don't know the the the birth of that project.
• 27:45
  It was just one of countless ones they always had kind of
• 27:48
  going. I think it's sort of the crazy
• 27:52
  entry in all The Muppets television stuff.
• 27:55
  I mean I think it stands out for that reason.
• 27:57
  It's it's really, it's really nuts.
• 28:00
  I. Mean I mean that in the I mean
• 28:02
  that in the best sense but it's it's so different from all the
• 28:05
  other stuff they done. It almost looks like a like a
• 28:07
  failed pilot and I don't think it was that I think it was just
• 28:14
  another variety show. I think they just thought it was
• 28:15
  fun you know it's the same way you had John Denver and the
• 28:17
  puppets and so on. I think that I think that was
• 28:19
  what it was intended to be. Is just another fun special, but
• 28:21
  it's so quirky and again, keeping all.
• 28:25
  The Muppets sort of in a control room like there is like the
• 28:28
  whole cast is here. They're just stuck in this one
• 28:29
  room that we don't see very often.
• 28:31
  Yeah. It's just it's it's a very
• 28:33
  quirky entry in the Muppet pantheon which I think is
• 28:36
  definitely worth watching for that reason.
• 28:39
  It's just I I find that one fascinating and.
• 28:41
  It's so fun at the end where where Miss Pigi is, is she
• 28:45
  thinks that this is going to be a series and she's told no, this
• 28:47
  is just a one off special. She's furious and she just takes
• 28:52
  the whole thing down. She karate chops the camera.
• 28:55
  It's like she pulls down the sets like she gets.
• 28:57
  So if you're she basically destroys television and then
• 29:01
  walks away. It's.
• 29:03
  You know it's it's ending the last episode of Sam and Friends,
• 29:05
  with him dismantling the entire set and burning.
• 29:07
  It's Jim's equivalent of ending a sketch with an explosion or
• 29:10
  something. Getting eaten or Monty Python.
• 29:13
  You can't figure out how to end it.
• 29:14
  You drop it one ton weight on them.
• 29:16
  So this one's like, you can't figure out how to end up like,
• 29:18
  just help Miss Piggy tear everything out.
• 29:19
  It's great. Can you tell me something about
• 29:22
  kind of like the relationship with Frank Oz, sort of after
• 29:26
  Mubbstick Manhattan, he starts to pull back because he's going
• 29:29
  to start working on on other shows or I'm sorry, he's working
• 29:33
  on other movies. Like he's now going to become a
• 29:34
  director and he still comes back quite a bit during the 80s, like
• 29:40
  in random places, like he shows up as a guest on Dolly Parton's
• 29:43
  show as Miss Piggy. What was that relationship like?
• 29:47
  Can you tell me anything about kind of like as Frank and Jim
• 29:50
  are are sort of starting to pull away from each other?
• 29:53
  You mean Frank's relationship with Piggy or Frank's
• 29:55
  relationship with? Jim, both so.
• 29:59
  I You know, once again, you can see the power of the performer
• 30:03
  and the fact that once Oz is stepping away, they're not
• 30:05
  handing her off to anybody else, right?
• 30:07
  There's no performer in weight or performer in training for
• 30:11
  her. Now that I'm sure they do that
• 30:13
  nowadays because Disney's such a big entity, you need to always
• 30:16
  be sure you've got that going. I mean that was part of what got
• 30:18
  I think Steve Whitmer in a in a tangle.
• 30:21
  But you know it's at that time when you're still a small enough
• 30:24
  organization. I mean I love, you know, it's
• 30:25
  like the The Muppets worked out of a brownstone in New York.
• 30:27
  They were not this big corporation.
• 30:29
  So it's like you really can't have, you know, other people
• 30:31
  that you keep on the payroll to be to be the swing, you know, or
• 30:34
  to be the understudy to Piggy. So.
• 30:37
  So I think, you know, it's telling that, you know, she only
• 30:40
  shows up when Frank shows up and it feels very special when that
• 30:43
  does happen, when you fancy them together.
• 30:46
  But it's, you know, it's it's like Lennon and McCartney
• 30:48
  getting back together as well. Like it feels special and you're
• 30:50
  like, oh, they're in the same room together.
• 30:52
  You know, it feels special when you get Jim and Frank back
• 30:54
  together and Kerman and Piggy back together for something,
• 30:56
  whether they're just like doing the tour down at Disney World or
• 30:59
  whatever. The relationship between Jim and
• 31:03
  Frank. I mean I I think never, you
• 31:05
  know, never never changed. And that now I did somebody, I
• 31:08
  can't remember who told me this not David Laser.
• 31:13
  Somebody talked about, you know, it was a they they compared it
• 31:15
  to a great marriage. But somebody said something like
• 31:18
  I think Frank regarded it as the great love in his life and Jim
• 31:22
  didn't necessarily regard it that way because Jim was was the
• 31:27
  boss and had so many other people that he worked with.
• 31:29
  I think he knew that relationship was very special.
• 31:31
  But I think Frank, you know, real, I mean you have to
• 31:34
  remember how young Frank was when he started working for him
• 31:36
  as well too. So.
• 31:37
  So I think that's why when you get them back together, it does
• 31:40
  feel very special. And you know, I love the stories
• 31:43
  of Frank talking about when he was directing Muppetake
• 31:45
  Manhattan and and I will use the language Frank use and you can
• 31:48
  believe me or not he talks about what a, what a, what a fucking
• 31:50
  asshole he was. You know he said he got very
• 31:52
  full himself and he and he said he remembered bossing Jim around
• 31:54
  at one point and was like oh, whoa, no, no, no, no, no, no.
• 31:57
  It's like like I gotta dial this back and and I love the footage
• 32:01
  you see of Jim talking about, oh, I can go and have a cup of
• 32:04
  tea now like, you know, Jim's like, whatever, I'll sit on
• 32:06
  something. But there was one moment
• 32:08
  apparently, when Oz tells a story about how he left everyone
• 32:11
  waiting, including Jim. A really long time for something
• 32:15
  and and was just devastated by that by even just the he's still
• 32:19
  to this day, the memory of it. Just like he was just aghast at
• 32:22
  his own behavior at that time. Right.
• 32:24
  Well I mean I think you need again it's Lennon.
• 32:25
  McCarty. You need like 1 to you need you
• 32:27
  need McCartney to sort of like bring sand the stuff the the
• 32:30
  rough edges off of Lennon. I think that you know that
• 32:33
  they're they're the Lennon and McCarty sorry, but Jim's the
• 32:35
  more the McCarty standing those rough edges off of off of the
• 32:38
  ALS at times and Oz is the one who's you know trying to keep
• 32:41
  Jim from being too saccharine. You've got that great story
• 32:43
  about during the Muppet movie when Jim says something like you
• 32:46
  know do we need to redeem the the villain.
• 32:49
  And Oz says bullshit. You know he's don't go don't go
• 32:53
  saccharin you you know your villain's your villain keep him
• 32:56
  that way. So they they were really good
• 32:57
  for each other in that regard. And you know, Oz comes back to
• 33:01
  do the Sesame Street inserts a lot.
• 33:02
  And Jim's got that really, really sweet statement that he
• 33:06
  makes, I think in the late 80s talking about how much fun it
• 33:08
  still is and that he hopes that when he it's so devastating to
• 33:11
  read now, when in his 80s, that he and Oz will be sitting on a
• 33:15
  front porch still rocking in the rocking chairs and performing
• 33:17
  Ernie and Bert. So I mean, so I think you can
• 33:19
  see the the relationship even right there, right?
• 33:24
  And I guess that that by play of sort of Oz kind of like pushing
• 33:27
  forward and and Henson kind of rubbing off the rough edges.
• 33:31
  I think that says a lot about kind of how why Piggy work
• 33:34
  within the Muppet show that that she she has that that tendency
• 33:37
  to to go too far. Yeah, and to be a bitch and
• 33:41
  possibly to be mean. And that Henson was there and
• 33:44
  Kermit was there to kind of soften that up.
• 33:47
  That's. Part of what makes Piggy funny
• 33:49
  is like she does go off the edge, but you got Kermit sort of
• 33:52
  like comes back and helps reel her in.
• 33:53
  Not that she needs the male to like help her get it under
• 33:56
  control, but in that relationship like she's the one
• 33:59
  that's like, you know starts breaking the plates.
• 34:01
  It's like who's gonna clean up this mess now, You know, so you
• 34:06
  know and bring brings her back down and I think that you do.
• 34:09
  I think that is sort of indicative of of the odds Henson
• 34:12
  relationship as well. Just don't go, you know, go
• 34:15
  nuts. But not too nuts.
• 34:18
  So yeah, I don't. I don't know it's, I'll be
• 34:20
  interested in seeing how how your how this particular podcast
• 34:23
  progresses Danny, as you deal with this issue as well.
• 34:27
  And especially because you and so many other Muppet fans are so
• 34:30
  much better versed in the actual episodes and the movie than I
• 34:35
  am. Like I I really I really love
• 34:37
  watching the Piggy Kermit relationship as as the Jim Frank
• 34:40
  one and the mechanics of it and you know that's why I started
• 34:43
  off talking about what I really loved is giving him the time to
• 34:45
  find the character I love glad of the thing of the story I'm
• 34:48
  not as I'm not quite as well versed so I'll be I will be
• 34:51
  listening to figure out to see whether you you're out with this
• 34:54
  because because it's it's a great question and it's and you
• 34:57
  know and nowadays that question I think gets harder as we sort
• 35:01
  of stumbled around saying does you know well does she need the
• 35:04
  does she need the male figure to tell her who she can be or what
• 35:07
  she needs to do That course is very different now than it was
• 35:09
  in 1979 so. And that's the thing I I was not
• 35:13
  actually thinking of it in that way, in that angle of that that
• 35:16
  as a woman that she needs a guy as much as more personal, that
• 35:20
  like Piggy needs Kermit. But that's a really good point,
• 35:24
  yeah. I mean, it's like who?
• 35:25
  Who is Kermit to Teller to tone it down?
• 35:27
  Well, you know, And part of what?
• 35:28
  Again, that's part of what makes it funny.
• 35:30
  We are dealing in in fiction here and in character study.
• 35:33
  And again, it's actually two guys playing off of each other,
• 35:36
  which I think is another weird dynamic of this, I think is it
• 35:39
  Johannes? I mean, Jo's very good on
• 35:41
  talking about Piggy as a drag performer.
• 35:44
  Yeah, that has come up. Tell me, tell me what you think
• 35:46
  about that. You know he he poses because
• 35:51
  it's a it's a man doing and I do love the story about them when
• 35:54
  they were making them up a show and they're doing the initial I
• 35:55
  think it's Spike Jones not Spike Jones.
• 35:58
  Spike Milligan. Spike Jones would have been
• 36:00
  good. Spike Milligan when they're
• 36:02
  doing the first read through and the performers are sitting
• 36:05
  around just without the the puppets and and Oz starts doing
• 36:08
  Piggy and he stands up and points at Oz and it's like it's
• 36:10
  a man. I mean he just cannot believe
• 36:13
  it. So I think you know Joe and
• 36:15
  others have talked about how that makes almost her a a drag
• 36:18
  type character, so manly performing as a woman.
• 36:22
  And I I I get that. I I don't know I I I think it's
• 36:25
  such a great I think it adds another level of beauty and
• 36:30
  complexity to this character. I had not thought a lot about
• 36:33
  that until Joe brought that up because to me I was like well
• 36:35
  it's just somebody performing Piggy.
• 36:36
  I mean, it could be anybody, but I think that that does bring an
• 36:39
  interesting take to that character, that it's a man
• 36:41
  interpreting how a female character should act and react.
• 36:45
  Yeah. And and drag, the drag act is
• 36:48
  about kind of like over performing the femininity and
• 36:52
  not it's not the same thing as like being trans, for example,
• 36:57
  where you're just like walking around in the world and not not
• 37:00
  like over the drag is about like the feathers and the Super
• 37:04
  feminine behavior and the voice and kind of putting on all of
• 37:07
  that stuff as kind of like partly like a critique almost of
• 37:12
  what we think of as the difference between masculine and
• 37:14
  feminine. So like I said I I had not
• 37:16
  really thought about it that much until I heard the folks on
• 37:19
  uptake starting to talk about it.
• 37:20
  But it's I think it's I think it's another really interesting
• 37:22
  cool take on it that that I don't think was a, you know, had
• 37:26
  been given any deliberate thought back in, you know 78 or
• 37:30
  whenever you know because again Piggy's piggy's not fully formed
• 37:34
  yet when she she's invented for a very specific reason and it is
• 37:38
  to be a back row character and it's Oz who sort of starts to
• 37:41
  find that character again through those very deliberate
• 37:45
  and lengthy stories that he's got for her, you know some of
• 37:48
  which shows up in the Muppet movie, you know with her winning
• 37:50
  the beauty pack beauty contest. Yeah, that's.
• 37:51
  All. Yeah, there's everybody, Yeah,
• 37:52
  that's in Oz's. Oz's write up for them as well.
• 37:55
  So you know he's doing some of the work for the writers there,
• 37:57
  I guess too. There's a.
• 37:59
  Funny thing that she starts doing I guess in the 80s is
• 38:04
  whenever that the concept of children come up that she says
• 38:07
  I'm very good with children and that's like the end of that,
• 38:11
  like she that's not a thing that she wants to talk about, but she
• 38:15
  like it's a thing that she wants to say.
• 38:18
  Well, yeah, and you get that great joke where Kermit talks
• 38:21
  about a bunch of baby figs. Yeah.
• 38:25
  Yeah, I I hadn't. I had not actually thought about
• 38:27
  that. Which I?
• 38:28
  See as as part of kind of her, similar to this sort of like
• 38:31
  secret back story that she has where she has like a a cold
• 38:34
  relationship with her mother. Yeah.
• 38:36
  That it's not necessarily clear that she has had a lot of models
• 38:40
  for how love and family is actually supposed to play out.
• 38:44
  Yeah. I mean you could, you know, you
• 38:46
  could actually, you can actually see a lot of tragedy in Piggy's
• 38:49
  back story that would explain, you know, her behavior and her
• 38:53
  relationships. And I, you know, there, who
• 38:55
  knows, there might be some, you know, there might be somebody
• 38:57
  who decides to do an Alan Moore take on Miss Piggy at some
• 38:59
  point, like sit down and like do all the back weird, you know,
• 39:02
  sort of like reinvention of her. Brian, thank you so much for
• 39:06
  coming on the show and talking about Miss Piggy.
• 39:08
  I really appreciate. It this has been so great, I and
• 39:11
  I look forward to listening to the rest of the episodes of this
• 39:13
  to see what you find out and where you where you land on some
• 39:16
  of these tough issues of Miss Piggydom.
• 39:18
  Do you? So obviously we plug Jim Henson,
• 39:21
  the biography. If there are people in the world
• 39:24
  who are listening to this, who have listened to this podcast
• 39:26
  all the way through here and have not bought and read the
• 39:28
  book yet, that is the thing you should do.
• 39:31
  And then are you? Is there anything else that you
• 39:33
  want to talk about or plug as I? Said you can always go to my
• 39:38
  website Brian J Jones and you find links to get.
• 39:40
  I've written about Washington Irving and Doctor Seuss and
• 39:43
  George Lucas. So I know I'm very fortunate
• 39:45
  that all four of my books are still in print.
• 39:47
  So you can get any of those if you're interested.
• 39:49
  And right now I am currently at work on.
• 39:53
  I'm calling it a biography just because that's sort of my lane
• 39:56
  of EU, the US Capitol. It's the day after January 6th
• 39:59
  as we're taping this. But I actually was a
• 40:01
  congressional staffer for almost a decade, and that building was.
• 40:05
  It was and still is, very important to me, but it's never
• 40:07
  had its story told in sort of a comprehensive manner beyond tour
• 40:11
  guides and visitor guides. And it's it's actually a lot of
• 40:15
  fun. There's a lot of crazy stories
• 40:16
  about it and it's been, you know, there's there's been
• 40:20
  politics wrapped up in it. The story in Hamilton about the
• 40:22
  debate over just where it was gonna be located, that has been
• 40:25
  going on since it's along with the capital.
• 40:26
  It's just it's been a lot of, it's been a lot of fun to
• 40:28
  research. It's taking me way longer to
• 40:30
  write it than I wanted to. But hopefully you'll have it in
• 40:32
  your hands next year. Oh that is so interesting.
• 40:34
  I I I was hoping you were working on something and that is
• 40:37
  a really nice surprise that you've that you found such an
• 40:39
  interesting I'm. I'm calling it Capital Colon, a
• 40:43
  Biography. I'm sure it'll be renamed before
• 40:45
  it comes out, but that's the way I'm kind of approaching that
• 40:48
  topic. Is as a character.
• 40:49
  Oh, that is gorgeous. And you have, you know, because
• 40:52
  of January 6th, you have kind of a big plot twist right at the
• 40:55
  end, yeah. It is funny because I did have
• 40:57
  people who say, oh, you know, it's.
• 40:58
  And I actually do know the guy because when I worked in
• 41:00
  Maryland, he was our chief of police.
• 41:02
  He's the current head of Capitol Hill police and they're like,
• 41:04
  oh, you should should talk to to Chief Manger about it.
• 41:06
  I was like, well, this is not really a January 6th, that's a
• 41:10
  good hook for it. But that's not really what this
• 41:12
  is about, so. So thanks again to Brian and
• 41:15
  Kissy Kissy. And thank you for listening to
• 41:17
  this episode of the fantastic Miss Piggy podcast, brought to
• 41:20
  you by my friends at toughfigs.com.
• 41:22
  In the next episode, I've got another interview with the
• 41:25
  charming and stylish Muppet writer Craig Shemin, who's got
• 41:28
  all kinds of pig stories to tell, so do not miss that.
• 41:31
  A big thank you to Joe Hennis and Tough Pigs for connecting me
• 41:34
  with Brian and for running one of the two best websites on the
• 41:37
  Internet. And again, special thanks to the
• 41:39
  editors of Muppet Wiki for running the other best website
• 41:42
  on the Internet. If you have comments or
• 41:44
  questions or you know stuff about Miss Piggy that you'd like
• 41:46
  to share, you can write to me at fantasticmisspiggy@gmail.com.
• 41:50
  That's fantastic Miss Piggy at Gmail, and please do.
• 41:54
  It's been really nice hearing from people.
• 41:56
  I'm also on X at Fantastic Miss P Or come and join us on the
• 41:59
  Tough Pigs Discord. Thank you everyone.
• 42:01
  I'll see you next time. Gee, I'd like to see you looking
• 42:07
  swell, baby. Diamond bracelets.
• 42:12
  Woolworth doesn't sell baby till that lucky day.
• 42:20
  You know that. Well, baby, I can't give you
• 42:27
  anything but love.