Latest / Better Preaching Podcast / Nate Ross | Preaching is the Gift; Discipleship is the Goal | BP2 Season 2 Episode 15
Transcript
- Dr. Frank Weller: Nate Ross, welcome to the Better Preaching Podcast. Nate Ross: Thank you, my friend. Great to be with you today. Dr. Frank Weller: I've been looking forward to spending some time with you just hanging out, talking about preachers and preaching. And I I just I one of the joys of one of the joys of this job for me is that I've been blessed to meet amazing people and people that I wouldn't have otherwise met. And Nate, you're doing amazing things in the kingdom of God. and I just want to say how grateful I am that God caused our paths to cross. Nate Ross: Yeah, well thank you. And I know you're a Bible college president, but to me you're more than a president, man. You're an innovator. you're a kingdom connector and this is why it's a joy to to get a work and talk with you about this today. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, I appreciate that. Hey, tell us a little bit about your family and the ministry that you're you're part of right now. Nate Ross: Yeah. so my wife Ruthie and I, we've been married nineteen years. we live in southern Indiana, Sellersburg. It's easier to say right across the river from Louisville, Kentucky. everybody's like, so kind of Louisville North. I'm like, no, it's southern Indiana. We are not Louisville North. Dr. Frank Weller: That's right, yeah. Nate Ross: Known as the River of Fire down here. But so I've been married 19 years to Ruthie, got three kiddos. Lily is 14, she's a freshman in high school. Carter is 11, he's in fifth grade, and then Zeke is nine and he's in third grade. And yeah, so I've been in done local church ministry for about 20 years, but three years ago stepped out to start my own leadership development company called Moments to Movements, which is really my ministry philosophy, is just stewarding moments and helping. Turn them into the movement that God wants to have. So basically there's a couple buckets that I do with that. The overarching theme is I just come alongside senior level leaders to help them navig navigate personal and organizational change. And so everything's a customized experience. So I have a whole coaching division that I do, both leadership cohorts to ongoing developments. Some people will contract me to really do a whole organizational. development. So I'll coach the lead pastor, the elders, the leadership team, the staff, and then we'll preach four to five times. so there's a couple of churches I'm doing that with right now. I'm a collaborator at heart. We'll talk about communication and preaching, but and even that's why I stepped out. I still love preaching, but even why I stepped out of the lead pastor role is more than being a preacher, I'm a connector and collaborator. And so I have about 12 collaborative partnerships. that helped resources leaders with whatever they need. and so it's just a joy, 'cause it's all about the leader and what they need. And then once I hear that need, I can help connect them in the right way, with healthy people. And then then the third one is I'm still doing preaching. So I'll preach about eight to twelve times and I'll do still some retreats within that and but it to me it's everything is working right with the leader with their problems, with their issues. cause what I found out for my own self is every leader is stuck or stalled somewhere. No matter the size of the church that you're at, there's always something that you're working on that you don't know. and I just love coming alongside people to help figure that out and step into what the Lord has for them. Dr. Frank Weller: There's a lot there to unpack, okay. So first of all, let's start with the start Nate Ross: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: with the fact that you're a proud Hoosier, an Indiana native. Nate Ross: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: I mean, I'm from Indiana, but I'm from I'm from northeast Indiana. You're from southwest Indiana. They're basically two different states, aren't they? Nate Ross: I I there there is when you drive north of Indy, you're like, Where am I? There's a Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. Nate Ross: there's a whole different vibe, man. You're right. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, I mean what's this dialect? What's this twang in the voice? Where did that go? All of a sudden I'm in Carmel and North and they they talk like they're from Michigan. Nate Ross: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I feel out of place up there. They're like, Who's this hick walking into our town? And but it's all right. Dr. Frank Weller: But we can all rally around the movie Hoosiers. We you we f Gene Hackman, Nate Ross: yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: honorary, honorary Indiana native. and r boy, you and Ruthie, I we we've talked about this a little bit, you and I would have gotten together, with a 14-year-old man, here we go. You you're you're in it now. Nate Ross: we are. And she just won freshman homecoming queen for her class and cheerleader. Dr. Frank Weller: boy. Nate Ross: And you know, I don't own a gun, but I'm thinking about it. And There we the deal. Dr. Frank Weller: I own enough for both of us, Nate. I live in Michigan. I can ho I can hook you up. with the proper with the proper paperwork, of course. Nate Ross: Yes, absolutely. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, well it it is just it all speeds up, man. It doesn't slow down from freshman, homecoming queen. You'll you'll start crying about her junior year. Nate Ross: Yeah. yeah. Well I like she came up and you know the homecoming dress and it was all formal and just as a dad, I'm like, no. this Dr. Frank Weller: That's right. Nate Ross: is this like no. Like you just and I joke, I just found out in every season of life, if you're honest, you have no idea what you're doing. And you get married, you don't know how to be married, you become a dad, you don't know how to be dad. And I'm like, okay. Alright, I'm gonna have to get some wisdom for these high school years, man. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: Does she look does she look like Ruthie? Nate Ross: Yes, thank the Lord. That was my only prayer. Lord, may she know you and not Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, well my goodness. Nate Ross: have my big nose. That's the those are the two prayers. And Dr. Frank Weller: And it worked out. Nate Ross: it worked out. He heard the prayers. man. Dr. Frank Weller: So I love what you're doing i in in your your ministry moments to movements and the I really love the place where it starts, right, with cherishing the moments because that's that's I mean that's parallel with parenting and with your marriage and with your ministry. I mean, really it's all about just this long chain of of special moments, isn't it? Nate Ross: It really is. it and and really for me it's like, are we aware of the moment that the Lord has for us in the invitation that he has in that moment? Cause th the the only movement that can come out of there that is worthwhile is the invitation that Jesus has for you in the moment. And that's why I just I you know, obviously we both love and follow Jesus, but you just see he was the king of the moments. It just he could seize them, step into them. even I'm always fascinated, you know, he asked 307 questions in the in the gospels. And one of my favorite verses that I've been introduced to is Proverbs 20, verse 5, where it says, The purposes of a person's heart are deep waters, but a person of understanding draws it out. And you go, why would he ask? 307 questions. And part of it too is if we're honest, we're like, some of them kind of sound like dumb questions, you know, hey, do you want to get well? You know, Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, yeah. Nate Ross: like, come on, Jesus, you know, what can I do for you? Where it's like, well, he's blind, you know, that way, you know, but you go, he's asking questions to get to their deep waters and to draw it out. And it's like he is the master of the moments. And he will meet people there. Dr. Frank Weller: Why do we miss those moments so much? Nate Ross: I I mean that I think the answer sheet is really long. I think one, I I would say there's some unseen operating systems that we're working by where it's like the moment that we're looking for is like, especially in the preaching and pastoral world, it's like once I get over this campaign, once we get the building built, once we get this, once we build out the staff, and the moment is always out there. And we never allow ourselves to just be present with even if it's an incomplete or frustrating moment, typically we're like, we don't want to stay there. We don't want to stand there. but yet that anything that the Lord's gonna do, you have to be present in the moment with him. And I was I was just even reading it just him again, like John 16. It's just encouragement for me, but you know, because in ministry and in preaching, you prepare alone, you preach alone, and you recover alone. That's a hard road that that you have to navigate. And I think forget the exact verse was John 16. Jesus goes, Y'all are gonna leave me alone. But I'm not alone. The Father's with me. And it's like he could sit in the loneliness of leadership, the loneliness of his calling, and know that he's not alone. And I think, especially for preachers, we hate those lonely moments. We hate all this other stuff. So we just let's just let's just skip on. Let's let's move let's move forward or go back to the whiteboard and reinvent a vision instead of just sitting in what the Lord has for us, knowing that that's okay. Dr. Frank Weller: That's a really interesting insight that we prepare alone, we preach alone, and we recover alone. And growing up, I mean, you grew up the son of a preacher. I first came across your dad, Nate Ross: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: George Ross, years ago. I was a baby youth minister, just barely wet, you know, wet behind the ears, barely minted, living in Kokomo, Indiana. And they used to have this thing called Indiana Christian Men's Fellowship. And your dad came up Nate Ross: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: and preached at that, and I thought, man, who's this big dude, broad-shouldered guy with this Van Dyke who just like I mean, he walked on the stage and owned it, you know. I mean, that that's Nate Ross: Totally. Dr. Frank Weller: the owned the room. He was the biggest person in the room, your dad. And I Nate Ross: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: d he just he I I I only came across him a couple of times, but he always had this outsized presence. and but he's incredibly gigarious. And so you you know, talk about we prepare alone, we preach alone, we recover alone. And at the same time, so much of what we do, so much of what your dad did, and and I I you know, you saw this firsthand. I it it's done really in the open with a lot of people. Nate Ross: Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, that that was like this is like my joy of preaching. And really more than even my joy of preaching, which I I do enjoy, my love for the church came from my dad. And so, you know, even the roster, like just thinking about this when you're like, hey, your own preaching story. Because of his faithfulness to God's calling on his life, you know, he came from a town of eight hundred. you know, in Palmyra, Illinois, you know, south of Springfield. So I mean, he was the son of a pig farmer. I mean, it you know, he came from this small stuff. And yet he just kept stepping into what the Lord had for him. And, you know, his second church that he worked at was Second Church of Christ in Danville, Illinois, where Dave Kennedy was the preacher. So, you know, I I grew up in a house with a pastor who also did preaching, but I get to be around Dave Kennedy. who was a preaching legend. Dad goes on to be a senior pastor. Then Tom Ellsworth at Sherwood Oaks Christian Church in Bloomington, who's a preaching legend, asked Dad to come be the worship guy. So I get a sit under Tom. Then Gene Apple calls in to come out to Las Vegas at Central to be his worship. And so I get a sit under Gene and see his preaching. and it was there that I gotta preach my first sermon. And it was our middle school Pastor at the time who said, Hey, why don't you come and preach? I'll help you write your sermon. And then he's like, I think you need to go into ministry. Wasn't even my dad saying I need to do that. It was, it was him. And I said, I I feel that calling. What should I do? He goes, Well, I did an internship under Mike Baker, and he's the youth professor at Lincoln. You need to go to Lincoln, which is where my dad went. And so, you know, and then got to do a preaching internship with him at Eastview. Later on came on staff at Eastview. And it's like, I I just look around it it just it it made me take inventory. Actually I was at at Bible College Neil Windham, who was my favorite professor at Lincoln. We were sitting I will never forget, we're sitting at a Dairy Queen and Clinton. He was my spiritual formation advisor and he just said, You're you're the son of a pastor. Like, why do you want to pastor? Most pastor kids don't want to pastor. And I never thought of it and And I I just sat there and I said, my dad always involved me. And he goes, Talk about that. And I I I could remember it because he would do worship and we'd do these big kind of like not cantatas, but like worship program type thing. It was called the witness and it was like real life storytelling of the life of Jesus. And of course, you know, I'd just have to sit in the pews during rehearsal. And I remember I was four years old. I was happening to watch it and it was the scene where Jesus is crucified and everything. And after the rehearsal, dad goes, Hey, what do you think? And I said, they didn't put the sign King of the Jews. on the cross. He goes, You're right. Next rehearsal, there was a sign King of the Jews. And it was at that moment in college I realized he was letting me shape his ministry at four years old. And so it's like as much as he was this great upfront guy, and he is, that spirit of collaboration, this listening, this posture of heart that goes, I'll actually I'll actually ask a four year old and listen. Like That's who my dad is. And so why you know? Dr. Frank Weller: I had n I I d I didn't know that he was a music guy. Nate Ross: that's I mean, he can sing guitar, Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. Nate Ross: keys, trumpet. I'm like, Dad, I got none of that. Quit holding out. Come on, man. So Dr. Frank Weller: You know, what strikes me is that you've just described a a list of legends Nate Ross: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: who are all retired now. And there's Nate Ross: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: something a little bit terrifying about that shift from that generation to yours and mine. Because now here we are. And you know, we we have to be the ones who stand in the middle between between that generation and this next generation that's coming up. Nate Ross: Yes. Yeah. That's a great that's a great observation. Absolutely. Dr. Frank Weller: I think I think it's interesting that your dad didn't push you into ministry, but he in he involved you in ministry. That's Nate Ross: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: kind of really critical, don't you think? 'Cause I think a lot of y you know, your your professor's observation that a lot of PKs don't want to go into ministry, I I feel I think they f maybe feel dragged rather than led. Nate Ross: absolutely. Well, the we you know the ministry demands, just like I do. And there's such a I just gotta get this done and then I'll go home. And I'm not saying ministry needs to drive the home. That's not healthy either. But if God's really called you, then he's really called your family into it and your job is to steward your kids into their calling and into the Holy Spirit. I remember the moment even I came home from youth group after I had that talk with Mark Hostetler. Who's our youth, our middle school, high school pastor, after he helped me preach and everything and we chatted about really going into Bible college. I remember going home to tell dad, like, hey, I th I think the Lord is calling me into it. But I apologize because I would always hear people would say, Whoa, you got big shoes to fill. You got big shoes to Dr. Frank Weller: yeah. Nate Ross: fill. You know, you got big shoes to fill. And so I was aware of that. And I remember I was I was a junior in high school and I said, Dad, I really believe the Lord's called me into ministry. And I said, you know, I wanna apologize ahead of time 'cause I know I'm not gonna be able to live up to your what you've done. but I really feel called into that. And I remember he just looked at me and he said, The only time you will let me down is when you do not obey what the Lord is calling you to do. He he didn't care what he he didn't care if I went into church ministry, whatever it was. I just want you to listen to the voice of the Lord. You have spiritual gifts. As a parent, we don't get to control that, but our job is to steward that. And it was a defining moment for me with just, you know, that blessing and affirmation of a father. And then to step into it and to have a youth pastor and Mark who believed in me, who could help me, who would walk with me. and I really believe, yeah, Jason French spoke at at my CIYs that I was going out to in California and just totally wrecked me on one sermon, needed to repent of a bunch of sin that was going on my life in high school, and I'm like and then now he and I, you know, are incredibly close. and I'm like, just the gifts of the Lord that he keeps bringing around. And he even says this it's like if we want to grow preachers, we've got to give them reps. We've got to come in and be intentional with it. We've to your point, we've got to be people, churches, and leaders who are finding ways to get. We know, like my first sermon was not great, but it was somebody seeing it in me, helping to walk with me, do it, and then debrief afterwards, and then keep it keep walking with this, going, I know this isn't gonna be an A. That's okay. Let's do this together and keep giving opportunities. So yeah, that unbelievably grateful for these guys. Dr. Frank Weller: Nate, when you're consulting with churches, how much of the work that you do touches on the the the minister's preaching? Nate Ross: Yeah, it it really depends on the pastor. you know, the the pulpit man is it's a sensitive thing. some guys are very territorial, some guys are intimidated by it or whatever. So to have somebody maybe talk to him about it. the ones that I do, you know, even myself when I went and got help through my preaching. of developing 'cause one of the things I realized in my own is I had a lot of I I call it an industry standard. So as I grew up around those guys, I would see like, well Gene Apple would always do a six week study break in the summer and he'd come back with a year long vision. I would try that and I'm so relational. Six weeks by myself in the summer is called solitary confinement. You know, that's not Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nate Ross: and I'm like, but it works for Gene, you know, why and I'm like Jean's Gene Dr. Frank Weller: Well Jean has yeah, exactly. Nate Ross: Right? I I I like And so when I come in to work with guys, my question is when they're talking about their preaching, what do you need? And like, well, I need a sermon. I'm like, that that's not what I asked. In order to get the sermon, what do you need? Some guys do need a collaborative team that go, hey, can you know, I'm terrible with the blank page. And so I would ask Aaron McLary, who was on staff with at Northside, still on staff there, unbelievable leader. He just asked me, he goes, What do need? And I said, Man, can you keep me off the blank page? And so he would prepare like a sermon research document for every series for me where we would we would organize the thoughts, we'd organize it, then he would create a research team. He wouldn't have to do all the work, but he would lead the team to get me all this feedback to keep me off the blank page because that's what I needed. And so that's when I'm talking with guys with their preaching. I'm like, Who what do you need? And most leaders and specifically preachers can't say what they want or what they need. Because typically they never they it's never been asked of They and well I need three points and a header. Yeah. Welcome to the game. That's right, yeah. And and Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, yeah. And a and a a tearjerker illustration. Yeah. Yeah. Nate Ross: and and can you give it to me every week? 'Cause as soon as you have one great sermon, then they begin to expect it every Sunday. You're like, gosh. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, spoiler a little a little bit of a little bit of a spoiler alert. the the next time, the next episode, we're gonna go kind of a lot deeper into that question, what do you need and and how preacher can find that because it's not a question that we ask. Very rarely do we ask of ourselves what do we need, because so much of our time and energy is focused on what does everybody else need. Nate Ross: Yes. Dr. Frank Weller: something that I know concerns you is that our focus on preaching is creating a generation of preachers who are good in the pulpit but don't know how to pastor people. Talk to me a little bit more about that. Why is that so problematic and what do we do about that? Nate Ross: Yeah, the there's a couple things and I don't I don't want to act like there's here's the one thing. but we all know our phones are discipling us and from reels to to shorts to all this other stuff, we see unbelievable communicators packaging things in such profound wording and impact and even The environment in which we see them presenting is the lights and the screen behind and all this other stuff. And so it it already draws our attention that that is the goal. Preaching's a gift, but making disciples is the goal. And so all gifts are actually to support the goal that God has. And so I think there's a little bit of a It's I I'll call it just an unintentional mistake where we feel like the goal is to get somebody to be able just to preach. But they don't know how to enter anybody's story, they don't know how to sit with anybody, they don't know how to draw out their deep waters. And so we just preach. And ultimately, that's a heart issue of going some like And we'll talk about this a little bit more in the next episode. we need to honor people, but we also need to be honest with people. And honesty is actually one of the best ways that we can honor people to go, hey, love that you're preaching, love that you're growing in it. I'm actually gonna set some boundaries on that because if we're not careful, we'll just let people just think that that's what it is to be a pastor. And we don't create the ecosystem that that moves them into pastoring. so I know it's a little bit long-winded, but I but so that's one of the things. And and so I go, if we can have much more of a holistic development mindset, yes, I want you to be able to preach. but we're gonna go on this hospital call. we're we're gonna this is what's gonna be expected of you. one of the things we talk about in our leadership cohorts is our job is to help steward people's capacity, and we go. there's four things that we see that develop people's capacity. So it's like, okay, well, if it's not just preaching, what what else is it? One, we go, there is personal performance. That is the preaching. Like we need to grow in that and the skill. Absolutely. it it's a non-negotiable when it comes to you know, personal performance. Second thing though is learning agility. I if you don't know how to have agility in the learning and be able to be taught that. And have the conversations with that, you'll preach, but man, you'll flounder because you not everything's all structured. You got to be able to work. Third thing is relationships. We got to help people understand their relationship with God, with themselves, and with others. And then the last one is it's their character. And so what we feel is if we can focus on the development of these four things, we're not getting rid of preaching. We're just saying that's one of four things you need to be developed in. And so How are the rest of these things going? As a leadership team, as a pastoring team, as an elder team, are those even the framework of what we're paying attention to in the development of our future pastors and preachers? that's just been super helpful for me because it's it's been able to reveal where my blind spot is. I have no problem with effort, but it's like, man, if I can give all the effort, but I'm not willing to be, you know, someone who can learn agility, my effort actually doesn't matter. 'Cause it's like you're stuck. Dr. Frank Weller: Right. And the the what's so problematic about that is in many contexts, if we're really good at number one, if we're really good at preaching, then we get a pass on the other three. Or or our our preaching Nate Ross: Great. Dr. Frank Weller: covers up the fact that maybe there's there's spots in our character that are lacking, or that we haven't read a book in five years and there's no learning Nate Ross: Right. Dr. Frank Weller: agility, right? Because as long as I can bring it on Sunday, that's all that matters. Nate Ross: Yeah, and we again go, Well, attendance is up, budget's up, we're good and it's like, whoa. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm looking forward to spending some more time unpacking this, and I really want to hear more about this idea of deep waters. I think that's gonna be helpful to our better preaching podcast listeners. But for now, we're out of time. Hard to believe. I want to thank you, Nate. I wanna thank our sponsor, Great Lakes Christian College. Nate's gonna be back for another episode next week, and you're not gonna wanna miss it because Nate's gonna go deeper about something that he really is just passionate about. How this idea of a quote unquote industry standard of preaching prep is the opposite of what pastors and preachers really need. So do me a favor, subscribe to BP2 wherever you get your podcast, like us and rate us, follow us on social media, check out the website at betterpreaching.org. Thanks for listening to and supporting the Better Preaching podcast. And join us next time for another insightful conversation because better preaching has a bigger impact.