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How Great Sommeliers Guide a Table | Roger Dagorn · The Restaurant Guys

• 0:42
  Speaker: Hello everybody, and welcome.
• 0:43
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• 1:10
  Speaker: Enjoy the show.
• 1:11
  Francis (2): And you can also find our shows on the web on iTunes if you're, if you have an iPod, you can podcast us right onto your little.
• 1:18
  Francis (2): Device there.
• 1:19
  Francis (2): I'm not exactly sure how you do it because I'm not good at, but I know it can be done.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: cause we're 40 and we don't
• 1:23
  Francis (2): have eye, we got hundreds of people doing it a day, so I don't know how they do it, but, uh, that's, that's, I got people to do that for me.
• 1:28
  Francis (2): Yes.
• 1:29
  Francis (2): We spent a couple of days talking about sustainable agriculture on the production side, and now it's time to go all the way over to the other side and.
• 1:34
  Francis (2): Talk about how things get to your table.
• 1:36
  Francis (2): We have with us a friend of ours who is, one of the most prominent sommelier in the country.
• 1:42
  Francis (2): Roger Dig Gorn is a wine director, uh, master Sommelier and the maitre d at, chanterelle Restaurant in Manhattan, one of our favorite restaurants.
• 1:48
  Francis (2): He's won the best sommelier in New York by Chefs in America, 91, the outstanding Wine Service Award from the James Beard Foundation in 96.
• 1:56
  Francis (2): He's been named Wine and Spirits Professional of the Year by Sanay Magazine.
• 1:59
  Francis (2): Uh, and he is an adjunct professor of one education at the New York Technical College.
• 2:04
  Francis (2): Hi, Roger.
• 2:04
  roger: Hi.
• 2:05
  roger: How you doing?
• 2:05
  Good
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: morning, Roger.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: How are you today?
• 2:06
  Good.
• 2:07
  roger: Good.
• 2:07
  Francis (2): Yeah.
• 2:07
  Francis (2): What I left at is that you're also the nicest sommelier in the world.
• 2:11
  Francis (2): Oh.
• 2:12
  Francis (2): We've just given you that.
• 2:14
  Francis (2): I would say, Roger, you are the antithesis of the haughty sommelier, uh, stereotype of of days gone by.
• 2:21
  Francis (2): And I would say that you were that way before it was fashionable to be that way.
• 2:24
  Francis (2): Now you are a master sommelier.
• 2:26
  Francis (2): How many master sommelier are there in the country?
• 2:29
  roger: Uh, boy, our numbers are growing.
• 2:30
  roger: We're up to 70 now.
• 2:32
  Francis (2): All the way.
• 2:33
  Francis (2): All the way up to 70.
• 2:34
  roger: Yeah.
• 2:34
  roger: Yeah.
• 2:35
  roger: But way back when, when I.
• 2:37
  roger: Uh, uh, passed my exam.
• 2:38
  roger: I was, uh, was number 14.
• 2:41
  Francis (2): Wow.
• 2:41
  Francis (2): That's, so we're talking about a level of professionalism that you've achieved in the wine industry in advance of, I, I think the increasing professionalism in our, in our industry.
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 2:50
  Francis (2): And I think what, what is fascinating to me and what's really en heartening to Mark and, and, and to me is.
• 2:57
  Francis (2): Is how there really, we believe there's, there's an increasing level of professionalism overall among people in this industry.
• 3:03
  Francis (2): Do you find that to be the case?
• 3:05
  roger: Uh, yes.
• 3:05
  roger: I think there, um, there's a lot more opportunity to learn more about wine.
• 3:10
  roger: Uh, also a little more challenging the, with the, the.
• 3:13
  roger: Major publications that are out, uh, uh, the consumer is a lot more, uh, wine knowledgeable and, uh, it's reached a broader, uh, range of consumers.
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: I, I don't, I don't find that as a, as a greater challenge.
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: I find that as, as some, you know, welcome introduction for, for some of these people.
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: Uh, they're, they, they seem to be embracing us more and, and embracing that knowledge more.
• 3:36
  roger: Well, definitely, uh, it gives us an opportunity to have.
• 3:40
  roger: A broader conversation with our, our customers, and, uh, uh, at the same time, it would taste, uh, a wider range of, uh, great wine.
• 3:49
  Francis (2): Yeah.
• 3:50
  Francis (2): You know, we are fortunate, we're blessed where we're broadcasting from.
• 3:53
  Francis (2): If you're listening in the listening area as opposed to the podcasting area, you could be anywhere but in the greater New York wine market.
• 3:57
  Francis (2): It's probably the greatest wine market the world's ever known as far as what's available here.
• 4:01
  Francis (2): Would you agree with that, Roger?
• 4:03
  roger: Uh, well, yeah, very much so.
• 4:05
  roger: Uh, especially New York market, uh, for several reason, uh, reasons that, uh, uh, other parts of the world, uh, they, they specialize in their own wines in New York.
• 4:15
  roger: Mm-hmm.
• 4:15
  roger: Uh, we get wines from all over,
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: right.
• 4:17
  roger: Not just California, not just from France really, but.
• 4:19
  roger: Uh, everything comes to New York eventually.
• 4:21
  Mm-hmm.
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: One of the things we Francis and I like to say is, is, uh, you know, if you live in Burgundy Yes.
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: You get to try more Burgundy than, than anywhere else in the world.
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: True.
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: But the secondary market for Burgundy isn't Bordeaux.
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: It's New York City.
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: That's for sure.
• 4:35
  roger: Or maybe Paris.
• 4:36
  Francis (2): Well, exactly.
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: All right, fair enough.
• 4:37
  Francis (2): But in, but in New York, you can get the best of, of everything, which is really great.
• 4:40
  Francis (2): I find that being in this business around the New York.
• 4:42
  Francis (2): Market, we need to travel less because if people go anywhere outside their home region, they, they'll come to internationally, they'll come to New York.
• 4:49
  Francis (2): Do you find that the case?
• 4:50
  roger: Uh, I very much so
• 4:51
  Francis (2): we were talking more about before about professionalism in the wine industry and, and one of the things,'cause we've been out in, in the provinces most of our careers in, Jersey and we've done some consulting in the, like in Manhattan.
• 5:01
  Francis (2): And one of the distinctions that was always drawn when we started in this business, you know.
• 5:05
  Francis (2): 18 years ago was it, if you were in Manhattan, you could find people who did this as a career and who did it professionally.
• 5:10
  Francis (2): But if you were outside of a major metropolitan center, you were always college students was the, was the best you could do and, and what you were confined to.
• 5:19
  Francis (2): And while college students still in, both in and out of Manhattan play an important role in, in our industry, um, I find that it's more acceptable socially to.
• 5:29
  Francis (2): Pursue a career as you have and as we have in the restaurant industry and, and have the respect of a true professional.
• 5:35
  Francis (2): Do you find that's true across the country?
• 5:37
  roger: Well, very much, uh, yes.
• 5:39
  roger: Especially in the last, 10, uh, 10, 20 years.
• 5:41
  roger: the hospitality industry was basically, uh, a place that people fell into, after, attending school and, uh, moving on from, one profession to another.
• 5:52
  roger: And it was a, perhaps a, a standby profession while, uh, they were working on another, uh, it's not like in Europe where some people, uh, would start, training at the age of 14 or 16 years old or,
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: or even younger than that.
• 6:04
  roger: That's right.
• 6:05
  roger: That's right.
• 6:06
  roger: And they, uh, uh, they cut their fingers many a times on, uh, on knives, uh, just to
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 6:12
  roger: Learn the industry.
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: In this country, we only do that if your, if your father owns a diner.
• 6:16
  roger: That's right.
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: That's way it happens.
• 6:18
  roger: And then there was always a dream that they move on.
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: The hope was they wouldn't do it.
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 6:23
  roger: But I think there's a become a love of the industry, in recent, years.
• 6:28
  roger: And it was interesting where, uh, my background, I'm French born.
• 6:32
  roger: my family used to always say that in the United States, people, eat to live.
• 6:36
  roger: Whereas in France, uh, they live to eat.
• 6:38
  roger: But you know, that that philosophy seems to have been changing quite a bit, uh, in recent years in the United States, where the consumer now really is interested in food and fine dining and the, uh, and the wine accompany movement, uh, to go with it, uh, to the point that even, uh, wine has become, uh, more the passion than food.
• 6:56
  Francis (2): Yeah.
• 6:56
  Francis (2): You know, and the interesting thing is I think that a lot of people who get into the hospitality industry as a passion and as a vocation are the people who are.
• 7:04
  Francis (2): Drawn into it through, through the wine and the professionalism in wine.
• 7:07
  Francis (2): I'm amazed at how many and, and very gratified at how many people.
• 7:11
  Francis (2): Been able to work for us and have decided to either go onto their own and open a restaurant or go on to become a food critic, or the people who are with us, who are our long-term employees, who've been with us for five and seven years, who are considering making a career with us.
• 7:23
  Francis (2): I mean,
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: we have someone in your master sommelier program right now.
• 7:26
  roger: Oh, wonderful.
• 7:26
  Francis (2): So, I mean, do you find that's changing in New York as well, that it's the wine people that are sort of driving this whole, you know, I, I increasing professionalism and taking this as a vocation, not just a, a job as a bridge from one thing to another.
• 7:39
  roger: Uh, I don't know if it's the wine industry that's, uh, doing so.
• 7:42
  roger: I do know that there are a number of, wine classes around town that, are, training, uh, people to, know more about wine and to be able to sell it.
• 7:52
  roger: Uh.
• 7:53
  roger: Better, uh, to the public and also to develop people's tastes, for wine because, you know, wine is, it's not something you just, taste and say, gee, I love this stuff.
• 8:01
  roger: now they, sometimes you have to learn how to appreciate it and to be able to appreciate it with food, and to learn the accompaniment.
• 8:10
  roger: And because of this, I, I think that the, the schools themselves are the driving factor in, Developing, uh, young professionals in this industry?
• 9:46
  Francis (2): Well, and I think that one of the things that's very important is there is a way for people now to pursue education process.
• 9:51
  Francis (2): And the two pinnacle degrees are the master sommelier degree, which you hold or alternative, alternatively the master of wine degree.
• 9:56
  Francis (2): Mm-hmm.
• 9:57
  Francis (2): But there are several steps that people take.
• 9:59
  Francis (2): Along those roots and get certified.
• 10:00
  Francis (2): And I think that really fulfills something that Americans need is sort of validation that I am a professional, I'm pursuing a career, I have an academic degree.
• 10:08
  Francis (2): And we're gonna talk more about this, Roger and I wanna talk more about education of consumers and education of staff and, and the role of food and wine is playing.
• 10:14
  Francis (2): You're listening to the Restaurant Guys, We're here with Roger de Gorn.
• 10:17
  Francis (2): Roger de Gorn is, uh, the, the major D in sommelier at Chantrell restaurant.
• 10:20
  Francis (2): He's also a master sommelier and has written extensively about wine.
• 10:23
  Francis (2): And we were talking earlier about, uh, putting wine and food together.
• 10:27
  Francis (2): And, and Roger, you talked earlier about being there to serve people and to fulfill their needs, but a lot of people seek out you in particular and seek out ch Terrell to sort of broaden their horizons.
• 10:36
  roger: Mm-hmm.
• 10:37
  Francis (2): And, um, you've done some great stuff for me and, and I, I've actually stolen a lot of stuff from you over the years.
• 10:42
  Francis (2): I hope you don't, I hope you don't mind.
• 10:44
  Francis (2): Not at all.
• 10:45
  Francis (2): But, but when, I remember when I went down, the first time that you brought me over as part of it, I said, you know, Roger, we bring us, we have, you know, four courses of food, four or five courses of food and just pick beverages to go with it.
• 10:55
  Francis (2): And you brought over for one of the courses sake.
• 10:57
  roger: Yes.
• 10:57
  Francis (2): And that was the first time, and now it's sort of, you see this all over, but that was years ago.
• 11:01
  Francis (2): That was the first time that I had sake.
• 11:03
  Francis (2): In a, in a Western European restaurant.
• 11:05
  Francis (2): An American restaurant,
• 11:06
  Mark (2): right dining, right.
• 11:06
  Mark (2): American French style restaurant.
• 11:07
  Francis (2): And how did that come about and and how has that take sort of worked its way into fine dining cuisine and you're still known for having, being kind of an authority on sake?
• 11:17
  roger: Well, I, was always interested in Saki quite some time, but, uh, what was available in the United, available in the United States.
• 11:23
  roger: Been, uh, really pretty much low grade Uhhuh, uh, quality bulk saki.
• 11:28
  Francis (2): And when did that change?
• 11:29
  roger: Uh, well, it changed about 10 years ago.
• 11:32
  roger: There were, there were a few small importers that brought in the high-end saki, the small, what's called zaki, uh, producers and, uh, uh, which specialized in, uh, m mice shoes.
• 11:46
  roger: In other words, That's been handcrafted where the rice is milled down to below 70 percents original size
• 11:52
  Announcer: Uhhuh
• 11:52
  roger: because the kernel where the starches, when the flavor is, and, uh.
• 11:56
  roger: Haki made to a point where it doesn't taste like kerosene, but it tastes like, uh, a very special beverage.
• 12:02
  Francis (2): Right.
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: I prefer it like that, Roger.
• 12:04
  roger: Yeah.
• 12:04
  roger: Well, I think we all do,
• 12:05
  Francis (2): but No, but, but it, it, you were blazing new trails then to, to take those sakes and not only learn about them, but then pair them with Western cuisine.
• 12:12
  Francis (2): Did you find that to be a challenge to put them together with Western cuisine?
• 12:15
  roger: Well, I didn't really find a challenge.
• 12:16
  roger: I had a lot of fun doing it and, uh.
• 12:19
  roger: Collaborated with, uh, David Ock, our chef,
• 12:21
  Francis (2): right?
• 12:21
  roger: Chef owner of Chanterelle.
• 12:23
  roger: And, uh, we've been having a lot of fun with it.
• 12:25
  roger: his cooking is classic French cuisine, but uh, he has his own twist to it,
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: right?
• 12:29
  roger: sometimes Asian touches, But, uh, usually not.
• 12:32
  roger: we do taste, uh, the Sakis Osakis and we taste it with food.
• 12:36
  roger: And we do host,, saki producers, uh, in town.
• 12:39
  roger: And we do, uh, saki dinners once a year.
• 12:42
  roger: And it's highly successful.
• 12:44
  roger: It's interesting how curious Americans are when it comes to Saki.
• 12:48
  roger: Uh, they, uh, they, they don't know enough about it.
• 12:51
  Francis (2): Mm-hmm.
• 12:52
  roger: And, uh, some enjoy sake.
• 12:54
  roger: I have a lot of people that just.
• 12:55
  roger: Do not like sake because they've just tasted the, the, uh, mediocre
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: sake.
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: Well, its, it's just like saying you, you don't like wine when all you've had is o peachy jug wine.
• 13:04
  roger: Right, exactly.
• 13:06
  roger: And, uh, but there are these great sakes that are really, exciting and, uh, work well with food.
• 13:14
  Francis (2): Do you find, is there the same variety in sake that there is in, grape wine?
• 13:18
  roger: there are a number of different styles.
• 13:20
  roger: There are different quality levels.
• 13:22
  roger: There are, uh, different, tastes, flavors that you get from different, saki producers.
• 13:28
  roger: Mm-hmm.
• 13:28
  roger: Uh, there is variety.
• 13:30
  roger: there's about 1500, uh, different sake producers Wow.
• 13:34
  roger: In Japan.
• 13:35
  roger: Each one of them making maybe, uh, up to 10, uh, 12 different sakes at different quality levels.
• 13:41
  roger: Right.
• 13:43
  roger: Uh, yeah, there's variety.
• 13:44
  roger: A lot of it.
• 13:45
  Francis (2): You know, I think one of the things that's really very interesting is when you go to a restaurant, and one of the reasons that hopefully people trust us when they come to the restaurant, there's a great, I find anyway, that when people say, okay, Francis, okay, mark, bring us, you know, seven courses, have the chef cook for us, uh, and you pick the wine for us, and we wanna spend x.
• 14:00
  Francis (2): And by the way, if you're out there and ing inland, if you're ever in a restaurant and you wanna say, listen, I want, I, I really wholehearted you to encourage it, right?
• 14:06
  Francis (2): This is my budget.
• 14:07
  Francis (2): I wanna spend$50 on a bottle of wine.
• 14:08
  Francis (2): I wanna spend$25 on a bottle of wine.
• 14:10
  Francis (2): I don't care what I spend on a bottle of wine.
• 14:11
  Francis (2): Mm-hmm.
• 14:12
  Francis (2): Say that it's not, I don't think it's impolite to say that today.
• 14:16
  Francis (2): And you really put this someway in a very difficult position if he has to look at how expensive your watch is and take a guess at what you need to spend.
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: The other, the other, the other thing that we do a lot, uh, and you know, sometimes you're with a set of guests or you're entertaining and that's not something you wanna be saying across the table.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: Point to a, a, a price on the wine list and say, you know, we're really looking for something like this.
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: Uh, do you have any recommendations?
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: And, and that'll give us a, a just a little cue that we need to, to point you in a direction.
• 14:46
  Francis (2): Roger, do you have any, any suggestions for consumers that might ease their, uh, experiences when dealing with, uh, in this, in these sorts of situations?
• 14:54
  roger: Well, uh, the more information, uh, they impart to the, uh, to the sommelier, the easier it is for the sommelier to come up with a wide range of choices.
• 15:02
  Francis (2): Mm-hmm.
• 15:03
  roger: Um, I come up with a situation quite a bit and I'm not sure what to recommend, uh, based on what the, what they're looking at, but what it is that I like to have a list, my list.
• 15:14
  roger: Pretty wide range when it comes to price.
• 15:16
  roger: If I really am really unsure about how much I wanna spend, I would suggest several, maybe, uh, one low end, one high end, and one, uh, midwife
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: right in the middle.
• 15:24
  Francis (2): And how do you feel, Roger, if someone consciously avoid saying the price and won't open the wine list and look at it so you can point at the price?
• 15:32
  Francis (2): Mm-hmm.
• 15:32
  Francis (2): How, how do you deal with that?
• 15:34
  Francis (2): When they say, you know, when they say what, when they say, you know what, Roger, we would like a really nice bottle of Burgundy.
• 15:39
  Francis (2): Just bring us something.
• 15:40
  Francis (2): Mm-hmm.
• 15:40
  Francis (2): I mean, now they could be talking.
• 15:42
  Francis (2): $40, they could be talking a thousand dollars.
• 15:45
  Francis (2): Well, you
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: can't be talking about a really nice bottle of Burgundy
• 15:47
  Francis (2): for$40.
• 15:47
  Francis (2): But, but you know, by the, you know, but we in the service industry have to go away their definition.
• 15:51
  Francis (2): Correct.
• 15:51
  Francis (2): But to define what their definition, how do definition is, how do you deal with such a situation, Roger?
• 15:58
  roger: Well, again, I, I, I'll make certain suggestive points, uh, is a very, very special occasion, right.
• 16:04
  roger: That, just, uh, hungry and just wanna have a good, good dinner.
• 16:07
  roger: Mm-hmm.
• 16:07
  roger: You know, it, it little in inflections, uh, gives me an indication.
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: Uh, the other thing I'll try and do is I'll, I'll try and ask someone what other kinds of wines they like.
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: So you'll, you'll get a little bit of a feel for the types
• 16:20
  Francis (2): of, so Mark could be at the table, say, so are you thinking along the two buck chuck range or something like a Dom Perignon?
• 16:26
  Francis (2): Have you, have you thought,
• 16:27
  roger: well, I try to avoid the one
• 16:28
  Francis (2): remedy
• 16:28
  roger: cut.
• 16:28
  roger: I try to avoid those extremes,
• 16:30
  Francis (2): right?
• 16:31
  Francis (2): Of course.
• 16:31
  Francis (2): Of course.
• 16:31
  Francis (2): Well,
• 16:32
  roger: because the thing is, if somebody wants to really spend out, uh, big bucks on a, on a wine, uh, they don't necessarily need a sommelier for that.
• 16:39
  roger: They can, they can easily see that on the list and say, gee, that's what I wanna spend and that's what I'm going to order.
• 16:45
  roger: Uh.
• 16:45
  roger: But if they're looking for something, uh, for a recommendation, and they, they tell me that, well, mine is really not an object.
• 16:52
  roger: I may go, uh, higher, but I won't go, let's say to the doper range.
• 16:58
  Announcer: Mm-hmm.
• 16:58
  roger: But I'll go somewhere perhaps a little less, uh uh.
• 17:01
  roger: In that range, uh, or they say they're on a budget, well then, you know, depending on the situation.
• 17:05
  roger: Of course, difficulty is that when you say that they're wearing a Rolex or, uh, wearing Timex clothes, you can't tell that these days
• 17:12
  Francis (2): rights true.
• 17:12
  Francis (2): So,
• 17:13
  roger: you know, people come in jeans and, uh, uh, and they're driving around in Rolls Royce.
• 17:18
  Francis (2): Yeah, well, we're talking with Raja de Gorn, who's a master sommelier, a dear friend of ours, the nicest sommelier in America, and we're talking about wines in general.
• 17:24
  Francis (2): We're gonna talk about wine and cheese in just a moment.
• 17:26
  Francis (2): You're listening to the Restaurant Guy, Hey, you're back with the restaurant guys, mark and Francis.
• 17:30
  Francis (2): We're talking with Roger de Gorn, who's the wine director at, uh, Chantrell Restaurant in Manhattan, a friend of ours, and also one of the early master sommelier in the country, and one of the most well-respected master sommelier in the country.
• 17:41
  Francis (2): Hello again, Roger.
• 17:42
  roger: Hi.
• 17:42
  roger: Hi, Doug.
• 17:43
  Francis (2): Roger, you said something before the break that really struck me and it's just, it's just what I love about you.
• 17:48
  Francis (2): Um, we said, well, we asked you how do you define what people are looking to spend in a bottle of wine?
• 17:53
  Francis (2): Which I think consumers can sometimes find that to be an awkward moment.
• 17:56
  Francis (2): And then some lia if consumers don't communicate it, can find it to be an awkward moment.
• 17:59
  Francis (2): And you said.
• 18:01
  Francis (2): Um, you know, if you have a lot of money to spend on wine, finding a great bottle of wine is easy.
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: It's true, it's much easier,
• 18:05
  Francis (2): but, but it's when you, you have a certain budget that you wanna work in, but you wanna have a nice time, that's when you know your job kicks in and I'm gonna craft for you a great evening and have a great bottle of wine that goes with it.
• 18:14
  Francis (2): Do you think that a sommelier has as much a responsibility or even more of a responsibility to find, you know, reasonable and inexpensive bottles of wine even that are great?
• 18:23
  Francis (2): And do you think that's harder to do?
• 18:25
  roger: Well, it's actually, uh, not harder to do.
• 18:27
  roger: It's still a buyer's market and the, the beauty of, uh, our profession is that we go out searching for wines all the time and we're looking for new finds.
• 18:36
  roger: Something that, uh, will be, that's great and, uh, something that sometimes we may wanna enjoy at home ourselves.
• 18:42
  Announcer: Mm-hmm.
• 18:42
  roger: And, uh, that's what, that's something we would recommend.
• 18:45
  roger: And you know what it is, it isn't always.
• 18:47
  roger: Trying to upsell to the most expensive, uh, wine, I find that sometimes a customer will want, uh, may want to spend, uh, a hundred dollars on a wine.
• 18:56
  roger: They say, okay, find me something at about a hundred dollars.
• 18:58
  roger: And I would say, well, great.
• 19:00
  roger: That's easy.
• 19:00
  roger: I'll go and, and bring a bottle.
• 19:02
  roger: Maybe that's, uh, 70,$80, uh, or sometimes even less that I, that I think would be appropriate with the meal.
• 19:08
  Francis (2): Mm-hmm.
• 19:08
  roger: And they don't know the price or they, uh, or when they find out the price, they're, even more thrilled.
• 19:13
  roger: Uh, and they'll either have a second bottle or guess what, they'll come back and friends for life.
• 19:17
  roger: Sure.
• 19:18
  roger: And trust my judgment, uh, next time around.
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: I, I think that that a great sommelier.
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: Should be equally excited to recommend you a 30 or$40 bottle of wine, definitely as they are to recommend you a two or a$300 bottle of wine.
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: You, you should be as, as jazzed about this wine for different reasons.
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: But, but I have always felt that, that challenge me come to me and say, you know what?
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: I'm looking for something a little bit different.
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: I'm looking for something outside the beaten path.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: Now don't come to me and say, I want a California cabernet for$30.
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: That's great because I may not have something that's really special in that price range, but, but come to me and challenge me a little bit and say, you know what?
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: I'm on a little bit of a budget today
• 19:56
  Francis (2): and I want a great red for$30, and I have a
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: exactly a
• 19:59
  Francis (2): number,
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: and there are 50 of them.
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 20:01
  Francis (2): The other thing that's interesting I, I think is with, as sommelier, we are looking at what you're having for dinner and we know the food.
• 20:06
  Francis (2): And we know the wines in our cellar.
• 20:09
  Francis (2): And so to put those two things together is, is really part of our job.
• 20:12
  Francis (2): And, and Roger, I'd like for you to comment on for a moment about something that's sort of an interesting phenomenon that I find disturbing.
• 20:20
  Francis (2): I love when people come in and trust us.
• 20:23
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:23
  Francis (2): And say, can you put together something for me?
• 20:25
  Francis (2): Or Can you bring me something special for your seller?
• 20:27
  Francis (2): Unfortunately, after 13 years in business, we have a lot of people that do that for us.
• 20:30
  Francis (2): And I know that you have a lot of people that do it for you.
• 20:32
  Francis (2): 'cause I'm one of the people that do it to you.
• 20:34
  Francis (2): The role of scores in those major publications, which do a lot of really good things for educating consumers.
• 20:40
  Francis (2): But I get consumers often who come in and they want a 95 point wine, or they want a blockbuster wine, or they want a wine that that has a certain number of points.
• 20:49
  Francis (2): And I think that at at table, that's when that is least relevant.
• 20:53
  Francis (2): I mean, what do you find about customers who always want a big blockbuster wine, even if the food they're having doesn't really mash that well with it?
• 20:59
  roger: I give it to them.
• 21:00
  Francis (2): Of course, of course.
• 21:01
  Francis (2): But I mean, do you, do you find that that's unfortunate or do you find that you try and win people over to, to bring'em in a, in a direction that they, they may not.
• 21:08
  Francis (2): Initially be looking to go?
• 21:10
  roger: Well, I'm kind of happy to see these people sometimes too, because I know that they're interested in about wine, in wine.
• 21:16
  Francis (2): Mm-hmm.
• 21:16
  roger: So they're, they're doing their own homework.
• 21:17
  Francis (2): Right.
• 21:17
  roger: Uh, which is good.
• 21:19
  roger: But I remember one time being on a panel, uh, and uh, with two other som mayers and, uh, Kevin Ra was the moderator and, uh, he had asked about, uh, writing, notations and scores, Of publications on the wine list, uh, next to the, uh, wines.
• 21:33
  roger: And at the time I was working in a Chinese restaurant called Say Yang.
• 21:36
  roger: And uh, uh, the question was directed at me.
• 21:39
  roger: I said, well, uh, it doesn't work necessarily because, uh, even though maybe she Latour 1982 maybe have a hundred points score, uh, I wouldn't give it a hundred points with Chinese food.
• 21:50
  Francis (2): Right, right.
• 21:53
  Francis (2): I think one the other interesting things.
• 21:55
  Francis (2): There are so many young people entering our business that are so jazzed about wine and so, and, and are putting a lot of knowledge in their head.
• 22:04
  Francis (2): And they may not be a master sommelier, they may not be very far, far even in their overall knowledge of wine, but there are many young sommelier and wine merchants on the retail level who, who know everything about the wines that they carry.
• 22:19
  Francis (2): And that's why I, I suggest, you know, going to somebody like.
• 22:22
  Francis (2): You, Roger.
• 22:22
  Francis (2): Hopefully people will do it to us as well.
• 22:24
  Francis (2): And why you, you know, if I may know more about wine than the sommelier of this little restaurant that I go to, but if he's doing his job.
• 22:31
  Francis (2): I don't know more about the wines in his cellar than he does and how they go with the food that, the restaurant Exactly.
• 22:35
  Francis (2): You know, that, that, that restaurant makes
• 22:37
  roger: Yeah.
• 22:38
  roger: Especially if he's buying the wines, he's buying the wines to mess the food.
• 22:41
  Francis (2): Yeah.
• 22:41
  roger: And that, uh, is a major point.
• 22:43
  roger: A lot of people do come in and they're very, very knowledgeable about wines.
• 22:46
  roger: They may certainly be more knowledgeable than I am about wines, and that's wonderful.
• 22:50
  roger: I can have great conversations with, with, uh, it's, uh, it's interactive.
• 22:54
  roger: Uh.
• 22:55
  roger: With, uh, many of these new, uh, young sommelier is so, uh, energetic and so interested in wine.
• 23:01
  roger: They're interested in serving the, the, the, the customer and, uh, and helping the customer.
• 23:05
  roger: And, uh, uh, that's always beneficial for the customer.
• 23:09
  Announcer: Mm-hmm.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: You know, Roger, we would definitely be remiss if we did not talk about the cheese course at Terrell.
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think for Francis and me is, is what kind of drove us to, to our cheese course at stage left, the year is
• 23:21
  Francis (2): 1994.
• 23:22
  Francis (2): Iodine at Terrell meet you for the first time and you do the cheese course for us.
• 23:26
  Francis (2): 93, it was actually 93, 94.
• 23:27
  Francis (2): We started the first cheese course in New Jersey of that caliber first real cheese course.
• 23:31
  Francis (2): Not of your caliber, but of our caliber and, and have brought it up over the years.
• 23:34
  Francis (2): Amazing stuff.
• 23:35
  Francis (2): You really tr Blaze Terrell.
• 23:37
  Francis (2): Now in Europe, that's sort of you, you would expect to find a great cheese course at every meal.
• 23:40
  Francis (2): How, what role have cheese courses played at Ch Terrell and, and and how have you seen it change over the years?
• 23:46
  roger: Well, uh, I remember when cheese was basically, unheard of in restaurants in, in Manhattan.
• 23:52
  roger: and I remember years ago when cheese was part of every, uh, meal in any French restaurant.
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 23:57
  roger: But, uh, it just, it, it became a health issue for some people.
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 24:02
  roger: But they said, well, not Jesus bad.
• 24:04
  roger: Uh, but the Waltuck, uh, Karen and David, Believed in, in serving cheese with the meal.
• 24:11
  roger: and we've done it all the time.
• 24:12
  roger: We just continue and then it became vegetable again.
• 24:14
  roger: Uh, so we haven't changed our course.
• 24:17
  roger: Uh, we have, uh, a, that, goes out and seeks out the, the best cheeses available and, uh, he finds some.
• 24:23
  roger: And he studies them.
• 24:25
  roger: He researches them and he explains it to the staff.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: Obviously teaches your staff quite a bit.
• 24:30
  roger: Oh yeah.
• 24:30
  roger: And so every waiter is ready and knowledgeable about every cheese that's on the board.
• 24:35
  Francis (2): And cheese is a lot like wine.
• 24:36
  Francis (2): It's almost as complex about wine.
• 24:37
  Francis (2): We're talking with Roger Day Gorn, who's a master sommelier in the sommelier, major D at Chore Restaurant in Manhattan.
• 24:42
  Francis (2): You're listening to the restaurant guy, You back with the restaurant guys.
• 25:09
  Francis (2): We're talking with Roger de Gorn, a master sommelier and uh, also the Mait de at Sean Terrell restaurant.
• 25:14
  Francis (2): Roger, you know, we were talking about cheese just before the break and you guys really blazed new trails and bringing cheese back to fashion ability and, and I think that's, that movement has gone nationwide.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: Before there was an artisanal.
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: There was Chanterelle doing cheese.
• 25:27
  Francis (2): And do you, do you find that there is, that the quality of cheese available in America is sort of, that's an exciting new area?
• 25:33
  roger: Well, especially American cheeses, uh, there's quite a few more available, uh, small, uh, producers and, uh, making, uh, very good cheeses, but not just America.
• 25:43
  roger: You need cheese all over from all over now.
• 25:45
  roger: Um, and uh, certainly, uh, Spanish cheeses are popular, English Irish cheeses, uh, Italian cheeses.
• 25:52
  roger: And of course French cheeses, uh, they're uh, they're all available and, uh, there are several different sources today.
• 25:58
  roger: And
• 25:59
  Francis (2): so when people say, well, why should I have cheese in a restaurant when I can just buy cheese and take it home?
• 26:03
  Francis (2): Your answer to them.
• 26:04
  roger: oftentimes we're able to get, better quality cheeses and a wider variety of cheeses.
• 26:08
  Francis (2): And I also,
• 26:09
  roger: my cheese are not available, uh, to the public,
• 26:11
  Francis (2): and my
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: answer is do both
• 26:12
  Francis (2): and well.
• 26:12
  Francis (2): But my, my point is, one of the things that, the great things about the cheese course, it was really, uh, I, and I do buy cheese for home, but what I thought was great at Terrell was.
• 26:20
  Francis (2): You know, the cheeses are there, they're at room temperature, they're at the perfect level of ripeness.
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 26:24
  Francis (2): You just can't manage, you know, to have 12 cheeses at the perfect level of ripeness in your house and serve them at room temperature.
• 26:28
  Francis (2): It's just, it's just a very big deal.
• 26:30
  Francis (2): And to have somebody knowledgeable who knows about all those cheeses and how they go with beverages is really tremendous.
• 26:35
  Francis (2): So I wanna thank you for blazing that trail in Manhattan.
• 26:37
  roger: Oh, it's a pleasure.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: Thanks.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: Thanks very much for being with us today, Roger.
• 26:40
  roger: Thank you.
• 26:41
  Francis (2): Thanks for taking the time outta your schedule.
• 26:42
  Francis (2): We're gonna put on our website the links where we can find out more about Roger de Gorn and the, and if you want to go get your master's, som a degree, how to do that yourself.
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: Or if you wanna go to Terrell, Roger will be on the floor in about four minutes.
• 26:53
  Francis (2): Thanks again, Roger.
• 26:54
  Francis (2): Take care.
• 26:55
  Francis (2): he's great.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: He is really
• 26:56
  Francis (2): great.
• 26:56
  Francis (2): I think.
• 26:57
  Francis (2): I think he is.
• 26:57
  Francis (2): He's by the way, the nicest sommelier in America.
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: Well, and, and what he represents is exactly what a sommelier should be.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: You shouldn't be intimidated by the sommelier in a restaurant.
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: The sommelier is there to help you.
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: The sommelier is there to guide you and give you suggestions on things that you might have not have tasted, and give you suggestions to match'em with.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: Food that you not haven't tasted yet to make your experience better.
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: Never, never be intimidated by a someone
• 27:20
  Francis (2): yet.
• 27:20
  Francis (2): And, and he also is there to make you.
• 27:21
  Francis (2): He's, he, he, he knows a lot of stuff.
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 27:24
  Francis (2): But like he said, if you go and say, I want a bottle of Cabernet, he'll bring you a bottle of Cabernet.
• 27:27
  Francis (2): Right.
• 27:28
  Francis (2): If you ask him a lot of questions, he has the answers to a lot of questions.
• 27:30
  Francis (2): But the most important thing is he makes you feel welcome.
• 27:32
  Francis (2): And that's what it's all about, isn't it, mark?
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: He knows all the stories.
• 27:35
  Francis (2): Well, you're listening to the restaurant guys.
• 27:36
  Francis (2): I'm Francis Shot.
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: And I'm Mark Pascal.
• 27:37
  Francis (2): We are the restaurant guys, central Jersey 1450.
• 27:40
  Francis (2): The time is 12 noon.