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SMNTY Classics: Do Layoffs Impact Women More? · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and welcome to stuff I Never
0:07
Speaker 1: told you production of iHeartRadio and welcome to another classic.
0:22
Speaker 1: I am a solo today, but Samantha will be back soon.
0:27
Speaker 1: In this episode I wanted to bring back even though
0:33
Speaker 1: it's kind of recent and kind of more specific to
0:38
Speaker 1: the tech industry. But unfortunately here in the United States,
0:44
Speaker 1: we are seeing a lot of layoffs right now, a
0:48
Speaker 1: lot of people losing their jobs as this comes out.
0:53
Speaker 1: I'm recording it on October twenty eighth, twenty twenty five,
0:58
Speaker 1: but it's coming out a little bit later. The government,
1:01
Speaker 1: the US government is still shut down, and it has
1:04
Speaker 1: been used as an excuse to not only fire or
1:08
Speaker 1: lay off a lot of people, but also to particularly
1:13
Speaker 1: target things organizations or jobs that are in any way
1:20
Speaker 1: about helping women or helping marginalize people. And so even
1:27
Speaker 1: if the numbers aren't there yet because the government is
1:29
Speaker 1: shut down so they stop reporting on that, we do
1:35
Speaker 1: know that that is happening and that that does have
1:39
Speaker 1: a larger impact on marginalized people and women. So it's
1:44
Speaker 1: something that we're going to have to keep an eye on,
1:47
Speaker 1: and it's something that's really sad because that's just decades
1:52
Speaker 1: of work that's being lost in some cases, like I
1:55
Speaker 1: have people I know who worked in some of those
1:57
Speaker 1: sectors and they are just devastated because that's they'd finally
2:03
Speaker 1: built up on all of this, finally got to this point.
2:07
Speaker 1: You know, we've recently talked about that with We're finally
2:10
Speaker 1: studying actually women and their health, and this backtracking is
2:17
Speaker 1: just really upsetting. So, as I said, even though this
2:21
Speaker 1: episode is a bit more specific, I just wanted to
2:24
Speaker 1: bring it back. And also I hope everyone out there
2:28
Speaker 1: is okay. If you've lost your job, I'm really sorry.
2:32
Speaker 1: And if you have anything you want to write in
2:33
Speaker 1: about that you think we should talk about, or any
2:35
Speaker 1: resources you would like us to share, please let us know.
2:39
Speaker 1: But in the meantime, here is this classic episode. Hey,
2:48
Speaker 1: this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff I've
2:50
Speaker 1: never told you production of iHeart Radio. Content. Warning, as
3:03
Speaker 1: the title suggests, we are talking about layoffs and losing
3:06
Speaker 1: a job just not fun. Have you ever been laid
3:11
Speaker 1: off or fired, Samantha.
3:13
Speaker 2: Yes, I have rood of you to ask, but I'm
3:15
Speaker 2: going to tell you anyway. But essentially I think it
3:17
Speaker 2: was more pragmatic and it's just the timing of everything,
3:21
Speaker 2: but it did feel great. I did get unemployment though
3:26
Speaker 2: for a while. Oh, that was an interesting process.
3:30
Speaker 1: That's that's nice. You'll have to tell me because we
3:32
Speaker 1: are going to talk about that briefly. Yeah, in here
3:35
Speaker 1: you'll have to tell me about that. I have never
3:39
Speaker 1: been laid off. I have lost a position before where
3:45
Speaker 1: they were like, you're just not good at this, why
3:47
Speaker 1: don't you do this? That's all right, you've been re arranged.
3:51
Speaker 1: I was rearranged. I kind of feel like I was
3:54
Speaker 1: stell fired from Longhorned Steakhouse, which.
3:57
Speaker 2: I told that story before, Like you didn't even though
4:01
Speaker 2: I both.
4:02
Speaker 1: Feel I was still fired, but also I wasn't showing up,
4:05
Speaker 1: so there was no official process. We just both kind
4:09
Speaker 1: of ghosted to each other.
4:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm trying to think if I have ever had that.
4:15
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I've always put in my notice
4:17
Speaker 2: and left.
4:19
Speaker 1: I had I've worked for a company that went I
4:24
Speaker 1: don't think it went under, but something happened where within
4:26
Speaker 1: the first week I didn't have a job. Yeah, but
4:29
Speaker 1: I didn't feel like I was. It felt like that
4:31
Speaker 1: whole thing just went away, so right, but I had
4:34
Speaker 1: to go find another job quickly. Because I was in
4:36
Speaker 1: Europe and I was anticipating That's why I was there,
4:41
Speaker 1: and I did. I was very fortunate. Yes, we've through
4:47
Speaker 1: the time I've worked at this company, which long.
4:51
Speaker 2: Time now, Yeah, I kind of forget you have other jobs.
4:54
Speaker 2: You've ever had other jobs, That's right.
4:58
Speaker 1: It feels weird to me too, to remember. We have
5:02
Speaker 1: had rounds of layoffs and it is scary. We had
5:06
Speaker 1: a pretty emotional one when I was an intern, where
5:09
Speaker 1: like I was young and I didn't it was my
5:14
Speaker 1: first time I think ever when at this particular instance,
5:18
Speaker 1: they like sat us all in a room and told
5:20
Speaker 1: us about it and that people were crying and like
5:24
Speaker 1: people were packing up, and.
5:26
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, that you feel like, well, it's just
5:30
Speaker 3: a very destabilizing feeling. Yeah, And we recently had around
5:34
Speaker 3: the layoffs here and several of my friends were laid off.
5:41
Speaker 1: So it is it's scary, and there have been there's
5:46
Speaker 1: been a lot of stuff written about what's happening in
5:48
Speaker 1: the tech industry, specifically with a lot of the layoffs
5:53
Speaker 1: that have It kind of started in twenty twenty but
5:56
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three and twenty twenty four were a big
6:00
Speaker 1: year for les unfortunately, and they impacted more women and
6:05
Speaker 1: marginalized folks, and we're going to talk about that and
6:07
Speaker 1: why that is. I would say you can check out
6:10
Speaker 1: our past episode spoiler alert on pregnancy discrimination, our work
6:15
Speaker 1: from home episodes Women and Unions perhaps, and the episode
6:20
Speaker 1: we did What's Happening at Blizzard which we should update
6:24
Speaker 1: that one. Oh my, but okay, so yes, for this,
6:28
Speaker 1: we're specifically looking at several rounds of tech and journalism
6:32
Speaker 1: layoffs that happened this year and how they have disproportionately
6:35
Speaker 1: impacted women and people of color and throughout the year,
6:39
Speaker 1: this year being twenty twenty four, we have seen several
6:42
Speaker 1: high profile rounds of layoffs and we're going to look
6:45
Speaker 1: at a few examples that highlight some troubling trends.
6:49
Speaker 2: Right and some baseline numbers to start off here. Since
6:52
Speaker 2: the beginning of twenty twenty three, huge companies like Google, Meta,
6:56
Speaker 2: and Amazon have laid off tens of thousands of their employees.
7:00
Speaker 2: More recently, Tesla laid off fourteen thousand. The amount of
7:03
Speaker 2: jobs lost in the tech sectors are estimated to be
7:06
Speaker 2: upwards of three hundred and forty thousand, and the number
7:09
Speaker 2: has sense grown yep.
7:10
Speaker 1: In April of twenty twenty four, Tesla fired the five
7:14
Speaker 1: hundred ish members of their supercharger team, including the top
7:19
Speaker 1: woman manager, Rebecca Tanucci, who was the company's top female employee.
7:24
Speaker 1: Allegedly Elon Musk, who if you somehow managed to avoid it,
7:28
Speaker 1: in which case, congrats to you. Runs tell us your
7:31
Speaker 1: secreta secret, that's his company. He sent out a questionnaire
7:38
Speaker 1: requiring managers to justify their human resources with an email
7:42
Speaker 1: that contained the line, hopefully these actions are making it
7:45
Speaker 1: clear that we need to be absolutely hardcore about headcount
7:48
Speaker 1: and cost reduction. Meanwhile, many industry journalists reported that this
7:53
Speaker 1: action made no sense for the success of Tesla, like
7:57
Speaker 1: that was a big project. It didn't make sense. Another
8:02
Speaker 1: Elon Musk company, Twitter, slash X, also saw mass layoffs
8:06
Speaker 1: fifty seven percent of those layoffs for women, and that
8:10
Speaker 1: that company is embroiled in so many lawsuits and some
8:13
Speaker 1: of them are about that right.
8:16
Speaker 2: Just especially with the amount of money this specific dude
8:20
Speaker 2: gets for doing nothing. But reek havoc. I mean, you're
8:23
Speaker 2: going to say, probably tens of thousands of jobs just
8:26
Speaker 2: by cutting your salary in half. Other companies like Dell
8:29
Speaker 2: have been accused of stealth layoffs targeting women. With their
8:32
Speaker 2: return to office policies in early twenty twenty four, they
8:36
Speaker 2: gave their employees two options, a hybrid option of coming
8:39
Speaker 2: into the office and working remotely or continuing to work
8:42
Speaker 2: completely remotely. However, choosing that option came with penalties, so
8:47
Speaker 2: one of them were quote no funding for team on
8:50
Speaker 2: site meetings, even if a large portion of the team
8:53
Speaker 2: is flying in for a meeting from other Dell locations,
8:56
Speaker 2: no career advancement, no career movements, and remote status will
9:01
Speaker 2: be considered when planning or organization changes aka workforce reductions.
9:07
Speaker 1: Yes, and according to one employee interviewed, if someone got
9:12
Speaker 1: promotion while working remotely, it required them to come in
9:15
Speaker 1: thirty nine days every quarter to accept it. And just
9:22
Speaker 1: a note, Dell wasn't even necessarily providing these offices or
9:28
Speaker 1: they didn't have enough space, I guess, and working remotely
9:33
Speaker 1: was and had been a part of their hiring policy.
9:35
Speaker 1: Was how they hired a lot of people who were like,
9:37
Speaker 1: I just want to work remote, and they're like, we
9:39
Speaker 1: got you. We're a cool company, and that's great.
9:44
Speaker 2: For the cool mobs.
9:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, they kind of they were all about.
9:51
Speaker 2: It, and which is what tech does I feel like?
9:54
Speaker 2: And Dell is such like the boomer of tech company.
9:58
Speaker 2: Let's just be really honest. It's like they're like, look,
10:01
Speaker 2: look we're cool. Not only can you work from home,
10:04
Speaker 2: but yes we originated with the open spaces and the
10:08
Speaker 2: unlimited PTO which you really can't take, and snacks and
10:11
Speaker 2: maybe a cool concert here and there.
10:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we're gonna in a second, but yes, this
10:19
Speaker 1: is pretty It's pretty ridiculous though, because this is from
10:24
Speaker 1: the standard you were reading, Samantha. Those that was from
10:27
Speaker 1: like an official Dell email and to say like JB,
10:32
Speaker 1: well you better come in or you're not going to
10:37
Speaker 1: get any career advancement, and you're going to be the
10:40
Speaker 1: first we consider when we're thinking about cutting our workforce.
10:45
Speaker 1: And as we did discuss in our women working remotely episode,
10:50
Speaker 1: it does benefit a lot of women, especially if there's
10:53
Speaker 1: childcare involves. I mean, obviously that still sucks if you
10:59
Speaker 1: have to work while doing child care, but it is
11:04
Speaker 1: a way that people were able to have these jobs
11:06
Speaker 1: where maybe they couldn't before. Okay. In November of twenty
11:11
Speaker 1: twenty three, a woman laid off from Octa in twenty
11:14
Speaker 1: twenty filed a civil suit in San Francisco Superior Court.
11:18
Speaker 1: She alleged that, along with other women, she came forward
11:21
Speaker 1: with concerns about gender discrimination and then after that her
11:25
Speaker 1: views dropped drastically until she was eventually fired, and the
11:29
Speaker 1: suit claimed that women experience quote, severe bias and inequity.
11:34
Speaker 1: The lawsuit read, like other women, missus Ho was encouraged
11:37
Speaker 1: to speak up and was told that this is a
11:39
Speaker 1: safe place to tell all that it was a big trap.
11:42
Speaker 1: Once she found courage to speak, she was retaliated against.
11:45
Speaker 1: And that's in the larger conversation about retaliation that were
11:50
Speaker 1: not necessarily getting into today, but that is part of this.
11:53
Speaker 1: While a lot of what we are talking about is
11:55
Speaker 1: tech specific, journalism also has been really impacted and in
11:59
Speaker 1: a lot of ways, a lot of that industry has
12:02
Speaker 1: become a tech industry. In early twenty twenty four, a
12:05
Speaker 1: wave of layoffs hit the journalism industry, and people raise
12:09
Speaker 1: the alarm that a lot of them hit women and
12:10
Speaker 1: people of color, and how that was going to negatively
12:13
Speaker 1: impact the landscape of our news and information was being
12:17
Speaker 1: reported on how it's being written. According to the Coalition
12:20
Speaker 1: for Women in Journalism, they reported that there were seventeen
12:23
Speaker 1: thousand layoffs in this space in twenty twenty three. Entertainment
12:29
Speaker 1: companies like Netflix and Disney also have similar conversations to
12:32
Speaker 1: be had, but those are very different episode. Also, this
12:37
Speaker 1: is not at all just a US problem, but we
12:39
Speaker 1: are talking mainly about US based companies today, and a
12:43
Speaker 1: lot of those companies are so big people all over
12:46
Speaker 1: the world work for them. And a lot of this
12:50
Speaker 1: has been underscored by the fact that when many of
12:53
Speaker 1: these companies were just getting started, they were mostly run
12:56
Speaker 1: and staffed by white men. As more attention land on
13:00
Speaker 1: that point, as more people were like, hey, it's the
13:04
Speaker 1: calls for change grew, these companies made bold promises and
13:08
Speaker 1: being more inclusive in their hiring practices in the twenty tens,
13:11
Speaker 1: especially as they got bigger and made more money and
13:13
Speaker 1: became more structured in corporate but a lot of them
13:17
Speaker 1: were still really famous for the yeah, the thinking outside
13:20
Speaker 1: the box in terms of office life, of like happy
13:23
Speaker 1: hours and gaming areas and bowling alleys and movie theaters,
13:27
Speaker 1: all of that stuff that in a lot of ways
13:30
Speaker 1: didn't suit women, especially if they had kids. But even
13:34
Speaker 1: things like feeling safe with your employees or employers after
13:37
Speaker 1: hours or getting home late, and that's what we talked
13:39
Speaker 1: about in the Blizzard episode, kind of the difference between
13:45
Speaker 1: a woman going to a conference and having a drink
13:48
Speaker 1: versus a man doing it, and how it can look
13:51
Speaker 1: really gross in office space. On top of that, a
13:55
Speaker 1: lot of companies supported and encouraged people moving during the pandemic,
14:00
Speaker 1: and we've discussed it before, but those policies again did
14:03
Speaker 1: benefit a lot of women and marginalized people. So one
14:08
Speaker 1: of the things that can get kind of lost is
14:10
Speaker 1: that some of the numbers indicate more men were laid
14:12
Speaker 1: off in these cases percentage wise, but the key thing
14:16
Speaker 1: is women often represent less percentage wise than the workforce.
14:20
Speaker 1: So for instance, in one analysis of three four hundred
14:25
Speaker 1: people laid off, fifty five percent were men, forty five
14:27
Speaker 1: percent were women. However, women only made up thirty nine
14:32
Speaker 1: percent of the total workforce, so it impacted them far more.
14:36
Speaker 1: Some estimates put the number of women laid off as
14:39
Speaker 1: higher in the women in the industry also as lower.
14:43
Speaker 2: So a piece of this is that women are more
14:45
Speaker 2: likely to get hired in positions that are more easily
14:48
Speaker 2: cut at least to the higher ups, like customer service
14:52
Speaker 2: or HR. When it comes to seniority too, men are
14:55
Speaker 2: more likely to have been there longer. This isn't even
14:58
Speaker 2: touching on women or marginalized folks who left because of
15:00
Speaker 2: burnout or harassment.
15:03
Speaker 1: Other episodes we've done, Yes, yep. Studies show that women
15:08
Speaker 1: are less financially prepared for layoffs than men, and this
15:12
Speaker 1: could be because of a lot of things like the
15:14
Speaker 1: ginger wage gap, pink techs, all kinds of stuff. Women
15:18
Speaker 1: who relocate for their spouses, especially in the military, are
15:21
Speaker 1: disproportionately impacted too, and this brings us to the pregnancy
15:27
Speaker 1: discrimination part. In the wake of the tech layoffs that
15:31
Speaker 1: happened in May of twenty twenty four, a disturbing number
15:34
Speaker 1: of accounts about pregnant folks, people with postpartum or on
15:38
Speaker 1: parental leave came out, about them being a large percentage
15:43
Speaker 1: or a significant percentage of the ones that were cut
15:46
Speaker 1: in terms of the number that they represented. Lawyers reported
15:50
Speaker 1: receiving calls about pregnancy discrimination across the country. However, there
15:55
Speaker 1: just aren't safeguards in place specifically protecting pregnant folks or
15:59
Speaker 1: people on parental leave under the grounds of business necessities.
16:04
Speaker 1: The discrimination is difficult to prove in the face of
16:07
Speaker 1: mass layoffs too. But the thing is like a lot
16:11
Speaker 1: of these big companies use their parental leave plans to
16:15
Speaker 1: attract new employees too, especially women. But in these recent
16:19
Speaker 1: waves of layoffs, a lot of the people who were
16:21
Speaker 1: laid off were women, especially women on leave, So it
16:26
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be matching up right.
16:29
Speaker 2: And that's not even the conversation about like FLSA and
16:32
Speaker 2: what you have to do to qualify for that and
16:35
Speaker 2: how to get through that and how to fire before
16:38
Speaker 2: getting with that. So it's really scary to lose your
16:52
Speaker 2: job at any time, but especially when you've had a
16:55
Speaker 2: big life change like having a kid, that is going
16:58
Speaker 2: to put more financial pressure on you and your family.
17:01
Speaker 2: On top of that, if you have a baby and
17:03
Speaker 2: no access to childcare, is going to be difficult, if
17:06
Speaker 2: not impossible, to get a new job for at least
17:09
Speaker 2: a little while.
17:10
Speaker 1: Yes, and so this also goes back to a point
17:14
Speaker 1: we've discussed before, but a lot of these companies just
17:16
Speaker 1: put into place these diversity equity inclusion DEI initiatives around
17:21
Speaker 1: women and people of color and LGBTQ plus people and
17:24
Speaker 1: people with disabilities, but without really making any change to
17:27
Speaker 1: how the company functioned to make those things work. Look,
17:30
Speaker 1: they didn't think it out beyond just saying, yeah, we're
17:33
Speaker 1: going to do this, or to account for the reality
17:36
Speaker 1: of what being truly inclusive would mean. So we've also
17:42
Speaker 1: seen a lot of companies doing away with those initiatives entirely.
17:47
Speaker 1: In recent years. It's become something of a controversial issue
17:52
Speaker 1: in our political landscape.
17:54
Speaker 2: That's literally a platform like that people are using to
17:57
Speaker 2: be like I should be your governor, your congressman, your
18:01
Speaker 2: board of directors, whatever, Like it's absurd, like I will
18:05
Speaker 2: get rid of DEI. I mean, we need to come
18:08
Speaker 2: back and talk about the fact that the damn Asian
18:10
Speaker 2: person who was puppet essentially coming after DEI initiatives and
18:16
Speaker 2: inclusivity initiatives for higher education and now the number of
18:21
Speaker 2: Asian students being accepted has lowered, no other numbers, just
18:25
Speaker 2: the Asians. I'm like, yeah, that's what you get.
18:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And there's a lot, there's a lot going
18:36
Speaker 1: on with this, because it really does feel to me
18:41
Speaker 1: that well, I mean, number one, obviously most obviously their companies,
18:47
Speaker 1: and they want to make money, and they thought like
18:49
Speaker 1: saying these things would make them money.
18:52
Speaker 2: And they still do even during this time when it
18:55
Speaker 2: like when it benefits them, aka like pride parades are like,
18:58
Speaker 2: we're going to be in here even though we've already
19:00
Speaker 2: backtracked in all of these policies, right, And it's.
19:06
Speaker 1: Like the second that it becomes oh they're striking or
19:12
Speaker 1: oh they're doing this, we don't need this, and it's
19:16
Speaker 1: just like they're just saying it to get the points
19:19
Speaker 1: and then not doing anything about it. But I also
19:21
Speaker 1: truly do think they didn't even think it through about
19:25
Speaker 1: how this would work or look, or they didn't want
19:28
Speaker 1: to mess up with their their boys club, bowling alleys
19:32
Speaker 1: or whatever.
19:33
Speaker 2: Right they're happy hours.
19:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And there are a couple of like
19:40
Speaker 1: key things people have written about we've spoken about on
19:43
Speaker 1: the show. One is the importance of mentors in spaces
19:48
Speaker 1: like this, but if all the mentors are white men,
19:53
Speaker 1: doesn't really work. And then there is the myth of
19:56
Speaker 1: the white male genius who, so I can never make
20:04
Speaker 1: a mistake, is like the god of whatever company. Uh.
20:09
Speaker 1: And then so even when they clearly do make mistake,
20:13
Speaker 1: they never face these consequences, but everyone else who is
20:17
Speaker 1: not there.
20:18
Speaker 2: Does, right, I mean the president again?
20:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I laugh because I'm miserable. There's also going
20:33
Speaker 1: back to what you kind of mention Smith, that there's
20:35
Speaker 1: this this return that we're seeing happen to hardcore bro culture.
20:42
Speaker 1: And so Elon Musk is a great example because when
20:47
Speaker 1: he took over Twitter, he was like boasting about you're
20:52
Speaker 1: going to sleep at work, You're gonna be working all
20:54
Speaker 1: the time. You're like all of these things, as if
21:01
Speaker 1: this is a good thing, right, But that is that
21:04
Speaker 1: was the myth of a lot of these companies that
21:07
Speaker 1: started to startups was like you lived there, That's yeah,
21:11
Speaker 1: that's how it worked. But it's strange because that company
21:14
Speaker 1: was successful, right.
21:17
Speaker 2: But you start looking at the companies that have this
21:20
Speaker 2: these thought processes. They made a whole freaking movie on
21:23
Speaker 2: Facebook alone, and you realize the majority of the success
21:26
Speaker 2: comes from stealing things from people. Yeah, more than that,
21:30
Speaker 2: like not Napster, all of those things. You're like, wait,
21:34
Speaker 2: these boys are not geniuses. They just know how to
21:36
Speaker 2: get away with stealing.
21:37
Speaker 1: Exactly and exactly they are taking credit, yeah, just taking
21:41
Speaker 1: credit for other people's.
21:42
Speaker 2: Work, right, and Elon Musk Bezos is the same thing.
21:45
Speaker 2: And then I know you're about to get into it,
21:47
Speaker 2: but it's amazing, this whole mentality, like you have to
21:50
Speaker 2: dedicate your life for a company, but we're not going
21:52
Speaker 2: to reward you obviously, And like even the fact that
21:57
Speaker 2: Amazon had that whole day they could not go take
21:59
Speaker 2: back and breaks, so they were peeing in bottles, and
22:02
Speaker 2: of course women can't freaking do that really at all.
22:06
Speaker 2: And they have this mentality that if you leave that
22:08
Speaker 2: station and you are stealing time, stealing time from work, yeah,
22:14
Speaker 2: which is absurd, being paid for not working. You're like,
22:17
Speaker 2: that's not how this works. And we're backtracking on all
22:20
Speaker 2: these things that were protected so that people could have
22:23
Speaker 2: access to be human, right in this whole culture of like, no,
22:27
Speaker 2: but if you really care about making money, if you
22:30
Speaker 2: really want to be successful.
22:31
Speaker 1: This is what you do right, right, And if you can't,
22:36
Speaker 1: if you can't hack it, then get it, then.
22:38
Speaker 2: You're going to be fired and will replace you.
22:40
Speaker 1: You're easily replaceable, exactly, exactly, And it's just it's bizarre
22:45
Speaker 1: also because of course they try to paint it as
22:51
Speaker 1: if you were being weak women. You're like, really, you
22:56
Speaker 1: think people just want to sleep at work or eat more.
23:01
Speaker 2: Like you think that this is a thing that they
23:04
Speaker 2: like being human once again is a detriment like eating right,
23:10
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, we are hungry. You cannot live that way.
23:14
Speaker 2: We've had people die recently, a couple of incidences at work,
23:18
Speaker 2: and no one found them because they did not care
23:21
Speaker 2: about these people.
23:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the thing is like, you know, Elon
23:29
Speaker 1: Musk is gonna be fine, essentially, like even.
23:32
Speaker 2: With the millions that he's gonna be sued. He may
23:34
Speaker 2: be sued, he may go to courts and may even
23:37
Speaker 2: go to jail. He'll still be fine.
23:39
Speaker 1: He'll be fine. And so he's just asking his employees
23:43
Speaker 1: to fix something he broke and bruin your life while
23:48
Speaker 1: doing it.
23:50
Speaker 2: He's broken in so many times. Can we talk about
23:54
Speaker 2: how moody his whole thing is, Like the whole new
23:56
Speaker 2: block thing is rumored that because he didn't want he
24:00
Speaker 2: wanted his ex wife's access to hit her account, and
24:03
Speaker 2: is she blocked in and so the reason that they
24:06
Speaker 2: changed that up recently is so that he could still
24:09
Speaker 2: access her stuff.
24:10
Speaker 1: That's the rumor, isn't that Like that comes up an
24:15
Speaker 1: embarrassing amount for you white male geniuses, is that it
24:20
Speaker 1: was a woman that hurt you somewhere and so.
24:23
Speaker 2: Therefore he has to do all these things in retaliation.
24:26
Speaker 2: I'm like, how petty he's going to be. And You're like,
24:29
Speaker 2: so you changed the whole blocking access, which did not
24:32
Speaker 2: that's the one thing that didn't really need to be
24:34
Speaker 2: fixed because you were upset that you could not see
24:38
Speaker 2: your ex wife's content. Really again, rumors, this is not.
24:44
Speaker 1: Surprise me.
24:45
Speaker 2: But I'm like, it's really coincidental.
24:49
Speaker 1: It would not surprise me at all. What I mean. Also,
24:55
Speaker 1: I want to come back and do an episode on this.
24:58
Speaker 1: But when I say like return to this hardcore bro culture,
25:02
Speaker 1: it's happening online as well, and it's happening in a
25:05
Speaker 1: lot of spaces that some of them we've touched on.
25:08
Speaker 1: I've seen some around the world that are happening. But
25:12
Speaker 1: a part of it is because of this, because of
25:15
Speaker 1: people like Elon Musk who come in and do all
25:20
Speaker 1: these terrible things, Fire all the people of color, fire
25:22
Speaker 1: all the women. And so the technology that is people
25:27
Speaker 1: are using is really boosting that content, and it's been
25:31
Speaker 1: sadly effective in a lot of ways. But yeah, that
25:37
Speaker 1: kind of were we got away from it for a minute.
25:42
Speaker 1: But then I also I was reading a very depressing
25:45
Speaker 1: article about this, but Essentially it kind of snapped backwards
25:52
Speaker 1: in the way so many of these things often do
25:57
Speaker 1: for a lot to for reasons, but.
26:01
Speaker 2: Well, I think I wonder if it just looked that
26:04
Speaker 2: way once again. It was just a pay perspective, because
26:07
Speaker 2: when we talked about the Google creator and content developer
26:12
Speaker 2: and the things that she went through, she was like,
26:14
Speaker 2: a this AI stuff is not going to go well,
26:17
Speaker 2: this's going to be racist and we should not be
26:19
Speaker 2: doing any of these things. And she immediately got fired
26:22
Speaker 2: and everybody's etcter like it was always there, but it
26:27
Speaker 2: was better hidden, and now just people just don't care anymore,
26:30
Speaker 2: especially with the fact that the government allows so much
26:33
Speaker 2: leeway for tech companies to do whatever the hell they want,
26:36
Speaker 2: which is a whole different conversation that we've repeatedly have
26:39
Speaker 2: had to have, and no one's really talking about these issues,
26:42
Speaker 2: Like I've really upset and concerned that we are. Again.
26:47
Speaker 2: Abortion is a huge issue. Don't get me wrong, I'm
26:49
Speaker 2: not talking about that. Queer rights huge issues, but all
26:54
Speaker 2: these things are happening, but we're like, what about the
26:55
Speaker 2: underlying things that we need to talk about with each
26:58
Speaker 2: one of these Congress people, which a few people have
27:01
Speaker 2: brought up, including John Ossoft being like, ay, so we
27:04
Speaker 2: should not allow government officials to be a part of
27:07
Speaker 2: the stocks, but that should not be able to practice
27:10
Speaker 2: in trading because there's some really shady stuff happening. And
27:14
Speaker 2: I completely agree with that on both sides. This is
27:18
Speaker 2: where I'm like, this whole system is corrupt, So I
27:22
Speaker 2: have a whole like, ah, yes, I am far leading
27:25
Speaker 2: left and I am losing it, like I am going
27:27
Speaker 2: faster on that track because we are seeing like even
27:29
Speaker 2: the people that we were supposed to trust and that
27:31
Speaker 2: we put on pedestals, and we're so proud of calling
27:34
Speaker 2: our representatives or at least like representatives in the States, like, oh,
27:37
Speaker 2: but you just made tons of money on this one
27:39
Speaker 2: thing that really hurts the American people.
27:41
Speaker 1: And you know this.
27:42
Speaker 2: That's why like cracking and those issues are such a
27:44
Speaker 2: hug just because you are putting money and banking on
27:48
Speaker 2: how much money you're going to make and using your policies.
27:51
Speaker 2: So all these conversations that this is a huge thing
27:53
Speaker 2: we should be looking at, but we haven't really even
27:55
Speaker 2: considered it at all. And I say we, including myself,
27:58
Speaker 2: because we have to look at the You're a huge
28:00
Speaker 2: victor first to save democracy. Second, yeah, we'll come back
28:05
Speaker 2: to the big issues with like the constitutional stuff at
28:07
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court. And then thirdly we'll come to these
28:09
Speaker 2: other things of like why are they doing this and
28:11
Speaker 2: whose interest this is for?
28:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's the thing too, is like a lot
28:16
Speaker 1: of these big companies they do get occasionally, they do
28:20
Speaker 1: get fined, but for them, it's nothing like it's.
28:23
Speaker 2: It's better to be fined than to correct something and
28:26
Speaker 2: do something that's better for the people. Like that's right,
28:30
Speaker 2: that's this is the biggest concern. Is like even with
28:32
Speaker 2: the small companies that had good intent, they've grown into
28:34
Speaker 2: such big companies that have been taken over and or
28:37
Speaker 2: that have made enough money that they're like, I don't
28:39
Speaker 2: care anymore. This is that makes me sad. But the
28:44
Speaker 2: fact that all of these things are happening and these
28:46
Speaker 2: big tech companies do not care. They would rather have
28:49
Speaker 2: a fine and have a whole like smear campaign about
28:52
Speaker 2: the fact that they are sexist and racist and like
28:55
Speaker 2: all of like anti LGBT, like all of those things
28:58
Speaker 2: that homophobic as hell. They don't care because it still
29:01
Speaker 2: makes the money and it doesn't do it much like
29:04
Speaker 2: because the governments and or policies have held them up
29:09
Speaker 2: and being like yeah, yea, but you can still do that.
29:10
Speaker 2: That's racist, but it'll probably help us in the end
29:13
Speaker 2: and we can we can make better jobs, bigger, more jobs,
29:17
Speaker 2: and events, which is not true. But like all of
29:19
Speaker 2: these conversations that I'm like, yeah, that's part of the
29:22
Speaker 2: big problem is that these companies will never change because
29:26
Speaker 2: they're never ever and they're also not taxed correctly. Yeah.
29:30
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well that's the whole secret. I know.
29:35
Speaker 2: I'm opening up both all these doors. But like when
29:37
Speaker 2: we see these conversations, these layofs why they don't care
29:40
Speaker 2: and they put on like the lipstick on the pig
29:43
Speaker 2: type of conversation is literally like that's what they do,
29:47
Speaker 2: and knowing that, they'll just talk about the next company
29:49
Speaker 2: that does it. Yeah, and we'll be lumped in here,
29:52
Speaker 2: but they'll they'll forget because there's so many of us
29:54
Speaker 2: and they can't do anything to all of us because
29:55
Speaker 2: the policies protect.
29:56
Speaker 1: Us, right right, And it does, I mean so many
30:01
Speaker 1: there are so many things in place like this, coming
30:04
Speaker 1: back to coming back to the office and coming back
30:08
Speaker 1: to the like hardcore pro culture. I mean, it does
30:11
Speaker 1: these models. So many of these models, even with the
30:14
Speaker 1: like oh now we're open space, do favor men. They
30:19
Speaker 1: were designed with men and mine, right, And so having
30:22
Speaker 1: this idea of like coming into the office that's better.
30:25
Speaker 1: It shows that you like, really care and like even
30:29
Speaker 1: if they won't, they'll tell you, well, it won't penalize you.
30:33
Speaker 1: But if you don't come in, they do, even if
30:37
Speaker 1: it's not purposeful, even if it's like just in the
30:41
Speaker 1: back of someone subconscious.
30:43
Speaker 2: Right, the more you're seeing, the more you're likely to
30:45
Speaker 2: be remembered. This is kind of that conversation too. But
30:49
Speaker 2: if I had it interesting, I'm going to go back
30:51
Speaker 2: to Ireland experience. The last time we were in the
30:54
Speaker 2: studio and we had Maya, our executive producer, who was
30:59
Speaker 2: a powerhouse. I didn't know, like, I didn't know how
31:02
Speaker 2: strong she really was. So I'm willing to stand up
31:04
Speaker 2: for like what she felt was a wrong. But the
31:07
Speaker 2: fact is, have we not? We were being pushed over
31:10
Speaker 2: for men, like it was so interesting how quickly people
31:14
Speaker 2: wanted to side with a bigger name, any of those
31:18
Speaker 2: like on there's two separate sides. There's a radio side
31:21
Speaker 2: and there is a podcast side. This was one of
31:23
Speaker 2: the things that came together during the pandemic in hopes
31:27
Speaker 2: that they could save money. Ab they're being like, we're
31:32
Speaker 2: gonna be working from home anyway, so it's fine. Then
31:36
Speaker 2: they started being like, come back into work. We were
31:38
Speaker 2: like why, but then like, we did come back to work,
31:40
Speaker 2: and the moment we did, we were like being pushed
31:43
Speaker 2: as a secondary in comparison to a bigger, like male
31:47
Speaker 2: group of broadcasters. It wasn't their fault, but everything they
31:53
Speaker 2: were doing was literally like, no, but but we were
31:56
Speaker 2: more important. Oh no, but yeah, we have a system
31:59
Speaker 2: where it's set ups to sign things up on like
32:01
Speaker 2: a whole big calendar. But that's that doesn't matter unless
32:06
Speaker 2: because we are more important. It was a whole different
32:08
Speaker 2: like and I feel like most of that and this
32:12
Speaker 2: is again on us, but at the same time on society,
32:15
Speaker 2: where we were like, oh, okay, okay, we don't want
32:19
Speaker 2: to cause conflict, We'll move okay, okay, but Maa being like,
32:23
Speaker 2: oh hell no, no, no, I will fight with you.
32:26
Speaker 2: I will fight with the heads in here.
32:28
Speaker 3: Let's go.
32:29
Speaker 2: And she made sure to get put the respect and
32:31
Speaker 2: she's like, we being like, you are disrespecting us, and
32:35
Speaker 2: she never really says that she was just like, this
32:36
Speaker 2: is absurd, this is not how it goes. We need
32:39
Speaker 2: to set a boundary. And I was like, damn okay,
32:43
Speaker 2: because it's like societally we would have just moved on,
32:46
Speaker 2: like that was what we have always been told. We've
32:48
Speaker 2: even in the old office, there's moments we were.
32:50
Speaker 1: Like, why is this happening?
32:52
Speaker 2: We have to shrink and people wonder why, and then
32:55
Speaker 2: when we did, and I was like they impressive, Like
32:58
Speaker 2: everything worked out. But it just feels like that type
33:00
Speaker 2: of culture is what we have seen so often. Yeah,
33:04
Speaker 2: in like the likes of any like any space. And
33:08
Speaker 2: I'm not saying anything bad about our company necessarily in
33:12
Speaker 2: this in this specific moment, but like things like this
33:16
Speaker 2: have continued to happen in the office to the point
33:17
Speaker 2: that this is why Maya was like, I'm done, I'm
33:20
Speaker 2: done well, and.
33:22
Speaker 1: It's like this was a very particular instance. But in
33:26
Speaker 1: this instance, uh, everyone involved had done everything right, everything correctly.
33:32
Speaker 1: We had the space, many of the other most of
33:39
Speaker 1: other studios were open, so it was it wasn't it
33:43
Speaker 1: was odd. It was odd. A lot of threads here, obviously,
33:47
Speaker 1: but I'm glad. I'm so glad Maya stood up and
33:53
Speaker 1: before it worked out fine, but it took time out
33:56
Speaker 1: of our day and I ended up getting home I
33:59
Speaker 1: think three hours later then I had planned, right, and
34:03
Speaker 1: that was unnecessary. It was unnecessary. It was a waste
34:06
Speaker 1: of time, right.
34:07
Speaker 2: And honestly, like in this like scope of what we
34:11
Speaker 2: was but it just so the bottom line on this
34:13
Speaker 2: was like, it feels like a standard because we've had
34:15
Speaker 2: this done to us a few times the few times
34:17
Speaker 2: that we were in the studio, we've had this done
34:19
Speaker 2: multiple times where we were like, eh, scooch over sorry,
34:23
Speaker 2: and that's that expectations. And typically it has always been
34:26
Speaker 2: men who overtake our studio. Am I wrong? Every time?
34:30
Speaker 2: I remember those situations always been dudes. Yeah, because they yeah,
34:37
Speaker 2: they feel like this is a this is a standard.
34:39
Speaker 2: I can do this, we can do this, and it's
34:41
Speaker 2: kind of a and even even when we had been like, hey,
34:46
Speaker 2: this is an issue, they'd be like, oh, just comply
34:49
Speaker 2: for now and we'll fix this later, which again teaches
34:52
Speaker 2: us and them nothing's going to be done. And I
34:55
Speaker 2: think this is where this is the first time again
34:58
Speaker 2: why we saw my being like, nah, I'm over this,
35:04
Speaker 2: and which again I was so thoroughly impressed that. I
35:07
Speaker 2: was like, oh, because this is the first time we've
35:08
Speaker 2: seen it from someone who was in charge of our
35:11
Speaker 2: our time in studios place, so it was impressive for
35:14
Speaker 2: that matter, But also this has been It wasn't a
35:17
Speaker 2: big deal, but it is the bigger scope of things
35:20
Speaker 2: of like why is this a standard and y'all think
35:24
Speaker 2: this is okay? And then y'all want us to be
35:26
Speaker 2: in here and talking about being empowered and acting like
35:30
Speaker 2: this is a safe work space when you obviously show
35:32
Speaker 2: how little we mean as a part of this family company.
35:49
Speaker 1: When I was thinking about this topic of running through
35:51
Speaker 1: my head, I also I wanted to do an episode
35:54
Speaker 1: on the origins of the phrase go back to the kitchen,
36:02
Speaker 1: because I've just seen it. It's it's so it's everywhere,
36:05
Speaker 1: and it's been everywhere. It's like one of the first
36:08
Speaker 1: things usually men will say to a woman who they
36:12
Speaker 1: don't agree with. And I was just like thinking about that,
36:15
Speaker 1: and I still I feel like that can kind of
36:18
Speaker 1: translate here where it is still seen as like, well,
36:23
Speaker 1: they can they don't have to be here, they can
36:25
Speaker 1: go back home, they.
36:26
Speaker 2: Can go do that as as people are expendable.
36:28
Speaker 1: Right, like that idea just permeated, and I was also
36:33
Speaker 1: thinking about a lot of the invisible work people do
36:38
Speaker 1: women do usually and we've done episodes on on it,
36:44
Speaker 1: like the whole spectrum of it. But like as a
36:47
Speaker 1: single woman, you can get asked to do a lot
36:49
Speaker 1: of the parties, the planning, all of these events that
36:54
Speaker 1: you don't get paid for, really don't get recognized for
36:56
Speaker 1: because you don't have kids, so what are you doing?
36:59
Speaker 1: But then on the other sid side, people with kids
37:01
Speaker 1: being penalized because they have kids, right and they have
37:04
Speaker 1: to go home. So it's just sort of all of
37:09
Speaker 1: these expectations are punishments that are just there, even if
37:17
Speaker 1: they're not writing, they.
37:19
Speaker 2: Are there, right, And the extra amount of work that
37:21
Speaker 2: is expected again, planning a party is a pretty significant
37:25
Speaker 2: deal when you're having a giant group of people. To
37:28
Speaker 2: be fair, I think like people have realized this is, yeah,
37:34
Speaker 2: an ordeal for the most part, especially when people don't
37:38
Speaker 2: knew it. They're like, no, I'm not giving this anymore.
37:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
37:44
Speaker 2: I think that that conversation is like the whole women
37:47
Speaker 2: in layoffs and then really figuring it out to the
37:49
Speaker 2: they're expendable, we can easily replace them. We could all
37:54
Speaker 2: these conversations and putting again putting them at positions are
38:00
Speaker 2: replaceable in their minds, whether or not they understand how
38:03
Speaker 2: big of a conversation like no, they're not as explicable
38:07
Speaker 2: as you think, right, but especially when they put the
38:11
Speaker 2: load that they do on most of these types of
38:14
Speaker 2: positions that they think it's so minial in their bigger
38:18
Speaker 2: scheme of conversations when like I know, the saying goes
38:22
Speaker 2: is essentially you rise up to do less work like
38:25
Speaker 2: if you don't, if you actually want to not have
38:28
Speaker 2: to do much, get a promotion type of thing and
38:31
Speaker 2: people will do the work for you. And I think
38:34
Speaker 2: that's what we see and which is why again white
38:38
Speaker 2: women are at the forefront of being laid off and
38:40
Speaker 2: or excuse like again the pregnancy, which blows my mind
38:46
Speaker 2: in every respect. I'm like, I just I don't understand
38:48
Speaker 2: why that's the qualifier. Just okay, whatever, There's so many
38:53
Speaker 2: things in this conversation that needs to be again readdressed.
38:56
Speaker 2: But yeah, as I am going on my tigh rate
38:58
Speaker 2: of like, it doesn't change the culture of business. Who
39:03
Speaker 2: says they're trying to appreciate the marginalized people are the
39:06
Speaker 2: same people who are like, yeah, but you need to
39:08
Speaker 2: be able to be shrunk, you need to be smaller
39:11
Speaker 2: so we can exist as an peaceful office, like you
39:16
Speaker 2: need to make peace, you need to be okay and
39:19
Speaker 2: don't make any waves here. And it's such an interesting
39:22
Speaker 2: thing in that same way, but like they're willing to
39:24
Speaker 2: get rid of those people. Well, probably the peace keepers
39:29
Speaker 2: of the office.
39:30
Speaker 1: Probably and are most likely doing a lot more work
39:35
Speaker 1: than you're not realizing. Right. Also, this whole conversation has
39:42
Speaker 1: also brought up conversations around things like just cause. So
39:47
Speaker 1: that means that they have to Companies legally have to
39:51
Speaker 1: give you a reason why you're fired. Not always you
39:57
Speaker 1: have to fight for that in some cases, but in layoffs,
39:59
Speaker 1: it's it's a kind of ambiguous space. So, like I said,
40:04
Speaker 1: some of this is that's why it's been so hard
40:07
Speaker 1: to prove as you can, it's difficult. Also, severence policies
40:11
Speaker 1: that that's come under come to light and discussion has
40:15
Speaker 1: been had about that and how good are bad they are.
40:20
Speaker 1: But I did want to ask you how so you've
40:23
Speaker 1: got some unemployment?
40:24
Speaker 2: I did, and the amount I don't think unemployment has
40:28
Speaker 2: gone up either, since I've had unemployment, and that was
40:31
Speaker 2: fourteen years ago. I think the amount State of Georgia
40:34
Speaker 2: has made the same because that, y'all, it doesn't it's
40:39
Speaker 2: not much. And what sucks is it's tax It's taxed awfully. Yeah,
40:45
Speaker 2: So essentially a weekly benefits from the for the State
40:49
Speaker 2: of Georgia goes from fifty five dollars to three hundred
40:51
Speaker 2: and sixty five dollars a week, but it is taxed,
40:53
Speaker 2: so one third of it is gone. So essentially you
40:56
Speaker 2: may be able to get twelve hundred dollars a month.
41:02
Speaker 2: Can you imagine living on that? And if you get
41:05
Speaker 2: a part time job that goes away, right, you cannot
41:09
Speaker 2: make money and you have to show every week that
41:12
Speaker 2: you are trying to find the job. The amount of
41:14
Speaker 2: things that you have to do to get unemployment, and
41:16
Speaker 2: you can easily be removed the amount of taxes that
41:21
Speaker 2: you have to pay because you can choose not to
41:23
Speaker 2: have a tax at the beginning and then at the end. Man,
41:26
Speaker 2: that hurt me, Yeah, it hurt me a lot. And
41:31
Speaker 2: I was trying to find the job. This is what
41:33
Speaker 2: I just turned thirty. Everything from like the worst and
41:35
Speaker 2: I was trying my damnness, and like trying to find
41:39
Speaker 2: a job and try to get back into social all
41:41
Speaker 2: these things. But the fact that it has not changed, yeah,
41:46
Speaker 2: in that long of a period, that's the most absurd. Yeah.
41:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean the thing that's like if a company,
41:56
Speaker 1: companies don't have to offer severance policies, and even even
42:00
Speaker 1: if they do, if they can find a way to say,
42:04
Speaker 1: like they had just cost, they had a reason to
42:07
Speaker 1: fire you, right, they don't have to give it to you.
42:09
Speaker 2: And unemployment is also contingent on that. If they had
42:12
Speaker 2: just cause and you got fired and it's your fault
42:14
Speaker 2: if you quit any of those things, you don't get unemployment. Yeah,
42:19
Speaker 2: and a job can fight against you, yes, to not
42:24
Speaker 2: get unemployment because it comes from their taxes, brads.
42:28
Speaker 1: So it's so gross, it is. And then again going
42:33
Speaker 1: back to so many of these things, but especially with
42:37
Speaker 1: women who might have children or people who might have children,
42:41
Speaker 1: like finding a job and it's not easy. Finding one
42:47
Speaker 1: where you can maybe have flexible hours or work from
42:50
Speaker 1: home also not easy. So it is a huge tax
42:58
Speaker 1: on women and people of color. And then yeah, it's
43:03
Speaker 1: just hard to find a job. And you know, you
43:07
Speaker 1: might have really cared about your job, and so you
43:09
Speaker 1: don't quite feel like just moving on, or maybe you're
43:13
Speaker 1: a little depressed. Right, there's a lot going on where
43:19
Speaker 1: twelve hundred dollars a month is not gonna right.
43:23
Speaker 2: Get it. Also just that conversation of the fact that
43:26
Speaker 2: you have to give a reason as to why you're
43:28
Speaker 2: laid off. Hopefully that you're like, oh, it was just
43:31
Speaker 2: a mass decision, Da da da. But we know a
43:33
Speaker 2: lot of these companies have become vindictive and saying they're
43:38
Speaker 2: laying off based on performance.
43:40
Speaker 1: That's true, and that in itself is like a marker.
43:43
Speaker 2: On many of those people who are being laid off,
43:47
Speaker 2: and then some who are vindictive and give bad recommendations,
43:53
Speaker 2: which by the way, is illegal technically, well weirdly.
43:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's a mess. Obviously, there's a lot of
44:06
Speaker 1: other paths we could go down with this one, but.
44:11
Speaker 2: Oh god, yeah, I'm thinking about the fact that if
44:13
Speaker 2: there's a gap in your resume, they get they see
44:15
Speaker 2: that as a negative. So if you're just off because
44:17
Speaker 2: you were out with your child, they see that as
44:19
Speaker 2: a negative. There's so many bad things there.
44:23
Speaker 1: I'm sorry there are. It's warranted, it's warranted, but yeah, uh, listeners,
44:29
Speaker 1: If you have any thoughts on this, if you were
44:33
Speaker 1: I know some of you were impacted I think by
44:36
Speaker 1: some of the twenty twenty three layoffs, please let us
44:39
Speaker 1: know and hope we hope you're all doing okay whatever's
44:44
Speaker 1: going on in your life. You can contact us in
44:48
Speaker 1: many ways. You can email us at Stephanie and mom
44:50
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44:53
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44:55
Speaker 1: stuff on Never Tolds You. We guys have a tea
44:57
Speaker 1: public story and we have a book you can get
44:58
Speaker 1: wherever you get. Ear Reks thanks as always to our
45:01
Speaker 1: super producer Christina, our executive pducer My and our contributor Joey.
45:04
Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks see you for listening Stuff I
45:06
Speaker 1: Never Told You. The production by Heart Radio form more
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