Latest / The Right Time with Bomani Jones / Bob Costas on Michael Jordan Memories, The Magic of “NBA on NBC”, O.J.’s Bronco Chase | 03.24

Transcript

Bob Costas on Michael Jordan Memories, The Magic of “NBA on NBC”, O.J.’s Bronco Chase | 03.24 · The Right Time with Bomani Jones

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time. A wave original.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: My name is Bobani Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: a hater. We are on our latest edition of Time
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Machine Tuesday and following up our six-part series on hip-hop
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: in the year 1996.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: We decided to call the biggest rap fan we knew,
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  Speaker 2: Bob Costas.
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  Speaker 3: Well, you know, Bo... Don't take this lightly. I have
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: some hip-hop cred, as you may be aware. To my
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: own knowledge, and it may be more, I've been name-checked
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: at least five or six times in hip-hop tracks, the
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: most famous of which, or infamous, is Ludicrous. I'd be
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: rolling torpedoes, get blunted with Rostis, and for a hefty fee,
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: I'm on your record. Like Bob Costas. What could be
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: better than that?
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Now, the question is, which part was the Bob Costas reference?
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Was it about the on-the-record part or the hefty fee?
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  Speaker 3: The on-the-record part showed that he was watching me on HBO.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: But the lyrics of that track are unbelievable. I own
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: so many uniforms. I'm a throwback mess. I hit the
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: dry cleaner and get a full court press. Which sounds
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: different when I say it than when he says it.
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  Speaker 2: I love that you really studied this.
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  Speaker 3: I have, deeply.
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  Speaker 2: This is my favorite thing.
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  Speaker 1: For those of you who don't know, I had the
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: good pleasure of working with Bob on Back on the
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Record with Bob Costas. There's also the part of him
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: being the preeminent sports broadcaster of his generation, but we
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: have him on now to talk specifically about the.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: NBA on NBC.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: And I was a little surprised as someone who doesn't,
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: I think about the games.
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  Speaker 2: I think about the broadcast. I don't think about the.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Companies nearly as much, but once the deal was signed
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: for the NBA to come back around and the idea
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: that the NBA was coming back to NBC, there was
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: a legitimate and palpable excitement that could be found from
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  Speaker 1: fans on just the idea of the NBA on NBC
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: or the John test record. you know, the John Chess
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  Speaker 1: song coming back around, the theme and everything else. And
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: it got here, and it's been a really great presentation,
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  Speaker 1: I think. But I'm curious for you, were you surprised
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: that people were that invested in the brand of the
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: NBA on NBC after it had been gone for over
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  Speaker 1: 20 years?
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  Speaker 3: Wasn't surprised at all. Some are surprised by the degree
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: of that attachment and the celebration of it coming back. Look,
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: we benefited from an incredible era. We had all six
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: of the Bulls championships with Jordan Williams. And at the end,
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  Speaker 3: the last three years of the NBA on NBC is
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: Kobe and Shaq and their three consecutive championships. So we
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: had a perfect set of circumstances to work with. But
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: I also think, being as objective as I can, that
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: while CBS did a great job during primarily the Magic
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: and Bird era, and Dr. J was in there too,
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: you know, and Dick Stockton calling the games, they did
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: a very, very good job. Brent Musburger as well. But
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  Speaker 3: I think that it reached the pinnacle in terms of presentation.
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: with the NBA and NBC. Marv Albert calling most of
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: those games. I did some of it. Tom Hammond did
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: it with Bill Walton and Snapper Jones, and that was
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: a great trio. But also the overall production values, Tesh's
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: round ball rock, and the idea that almost every big game,
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: at least, began with a dramatic narrative that wasn't hype.
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: It was just kind of accentuating what was already there
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: and framing it and making it more dramatic. And I
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  Speaker 3: think people associate the NBA with that era. And what
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: we've done now, I think, has been close to pitch perfect.
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  Speaker 3: We've acknowledged it, but we haven't leaned into it too heavily.
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  Speaker 3: And that's why I'm there, you know, to do some
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: of the opening narratives, to come on. maybe tongue-in-cheek acknowledge
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: that it's been a while, set the stage, maybe do
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: the occasional interview. And the first time that I was on,
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  Speaker 3: on this new iteration of the NBA and NBC, that's
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  Speaker 3: what I said. Occasionally, we'll flash back to some of
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  Speaker 3: the great moments. We've got John Tesh's round ball rock.
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  Speaker 3: But for the most part, this is a new generation
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  Speaker 3: of teams, a new generation of stars, and a new
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  Speaker 3: generation of broadcasters. So here's Maria Taylor. I think that's
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  Speaker 3: the way we're going to play it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I want to put a pin on the
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: idea of the narrative. We're going to talk about that
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  Speaker 1: part a little bit later, but you mentioned CBS, who
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: I believe had the contract for 17.
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  Speaker 2: Years before NBC had it.
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  Speaker 1: And so my first memories of watching the NBA are
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  Speaker 1: with Dick Stockton on the call. I think Tommy Heinsohn
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  Speaker 1: was still doing color, and then it came to be
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  Speaker 1: my guy, Hubie, my favorite color commentator of all time.
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  Speaker 1: And I don't think I appreciated it at the time
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  Speaker 1: just because, I mean, I only was so old, so
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  Speaker 1: I could be so sophisticated a consumer of media. But
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: now that I look back on it, it really was
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  Speaker 1: a shift in the way that the game was presented
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  Speaker 1: from what CBS was doing to what NBC had done. Now, CBS,
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  Speaker 1: of course, they had the greatest rivalry that we've had
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  Speaker 1: in the history of basketball.
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  Speaker 2: Magic Bird, you know, through the 1980s, with a drop-in
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: of Dr.
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  Speaker 1: J and Moses Malone and the Sixers, whom we can't
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  Speaker 1: forget during that time period. But then when we get to,
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  Speaker 1: it's the beginning of the Jordan era, but also it
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: felt different. And one part of it feeling different, as
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  Speaker 1: I recall, is You were doing the studio show for
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  Speaker 1: the first run, and the first season was you and
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Pat Riley because Riley had resigned with the Lakers.
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  Speaker 2: And I will always remember this.
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  Speaker 1: You guys having a shooting contest in the studio that
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: went throughout the year, and the bet was the loser
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  Speaker 1: had to wear his hair like the winner, which meant
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: Pat Riley tried to get his hair not to go
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  Speaker 1: straight backward anymore, and he could not do it.
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  Speaker 2: It was impossible at that point in his life.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it had been trained to stay back there. So
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  Speaker 3: it wasn't quite as slicked as whatever he put into it.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: You know, Michael Douglas said that his character, what the
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: heck was the movie I'm thinking of?
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: Gordon Gekko and Wall Street.
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: Wall Street, that's right. That the Gordon Gekko character was
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: modeled after Pat Riley's look because Douglas was in his
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: a basketball fan. And that was famous. That was iconic,
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: his look, the suits, the collar, the tiny knot in
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: the tie. And of course, he could pull it off perfectly.
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  Speaker 3: So that was what was iconic about it. And the
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  Speaker 3: first day in the studio, I didn't even know until
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: I walked in there for the first rehearsal that they'd
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: have a hoop behind us. And so I just said
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: spontaneously toward the end of the first show, somebody got
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: a ball. Let's take a shot every show, and then
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: we'll see who comes out ahead at the end. And
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: we didn't stage it this way, but we were dead
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: even through the Western Conference and both conference championships. And
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: then we went on the road to Chicago for the
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  Speaker 3: opening of Lakers-Bulls in the final. And we shot best
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: of 10 to break the tie with John Paxson rebounding
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: for us. And I made at least nine. And he
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: made like seven. And so I won. So before game two,
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: he had to take the gunk out of his hair.
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  Speaker 1: And did you have one shot you took in your
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: driveway in St. Louis with Dan Dierdorf?
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  Speaker 3: You are all over this. Yes, it was Christmas Day.
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: And Dick Ebersole, who was always great to me, my
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: kids were little then, he said, you know, stay in St. Louis,
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  Speaker 3: have Christmas with your kids. But I had a hoop
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  Speaker 3: in the driveway, and Dan Deardorff lived not far away.
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  Speaker 3: So I called him and said, why don't you come
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  Speaker 3: over and rebound for me? And Riley made his shot.
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: It was in Chicago. He was in Chicago. He made
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: his shot from the foul line, and then I went second. Luckily,
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: there wasn't too much wind, and we both hit.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: I think something that people, especially younger people now, may
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: not be able to have a grasp on is, How
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  Speaker 1: famous Pat Riley was at this point?
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  Speaker 2: Because I think now we're at the place where he is.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Viewed as an executive, but as a significant coup.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: Pat Riley and I think like Pat Riley.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: Mike Krzyzewski and Bobby Knight really expanded the idea of
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: what a basketball coach was in the zeitgeist in the 1980s.
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  Speaker 1: Like the CEO coach selling you going to talk to
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: you in your boardroom on how to lead.
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  Speaker 2: That was Pat Riley.
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  Speaker 1: And that had to be a huge coup because none
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: of us thought he wasn't going to be coaching the Lakers.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: But then he turned out, you know, turns up in
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  Speaker 1: the studio for NBC.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, we were pretty sure that this was just a
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: way station, that he'd be back coaching. He was only
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: in his 40s then, that he'd be back coaching at
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: some point. And of course, then he began talking to
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: the Knicks and it became kind of an open secret
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: that he would soon be gone. But that one year
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: really helped us. That gave us tremendous credibility. NBC didn't
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: have that much credibility with the NBA at the outset.
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: And it was a very smart move to get Marv
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: Albert to call the games. he became almost very quickly
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: the national voice of the NBA. He had been revered
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: in New York because of the great Knick teams of
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: the 70s and how much of a fixture he was
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: in New York sports. At the very beginning, this is
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: just a bit inside stuff, Bomani, David Stern and Ebersole
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: asked me to be the lead play-by-play guy. And I said,
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: I can do it, but Marv should be the guy. Plus,
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: you don't want Riley in the studio where he's not
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: comfortable yet without somebody that can take care of all
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: the traffic. So I think it's the best use of
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: our roster. If I'm the host, then Marv is the
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: play-by-play guy. And they agreed with that, and I think
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: it turned out well.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: Well, Marv also got another guy who was in between
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  Speaker 1: coaching jobs, who was Mike Fratello. The idea that Marv
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: Albert just decided we're going to make Mike Fratello, not
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: only are we going to make him the czar of
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: the Telestrator, I'm going to call him czar like it's
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: his name.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: Yo, oh, czar.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: There was always, it was tongue in cheek, but also
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: self-aware of Marv Albert that he understood that he sounded
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: like Marv Albert, full-on broadcaster at all times, but still
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: kind of, he was still a regular person also in
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: the presentation. It's kind of hard to explain, but just say,
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to call Mike Fratello the czar of
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: the Telestrator now.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: And, you know, Fratello, all these years later, like on
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: his Christmas cards or he's got hats and it says
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  Speaker 3: the czar I saw it on a Christmas card. Happy holidays,
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: Mike Fratello, a.k.a. the czar. Yeah, I know. I know
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: you're the czar. And you know what? You'll remember this.
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: What Marv also did, and he did this with all...
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: of his partners. I remember him once on David Letterman
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: and Letterman asked him about the fight doctor, Ferdie Pacheco.
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: And Marv goes, yes, Dave, not the sort of physician
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: you'd want at the bedside of a loved one. So
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: he was always doing that to his partners. And so, oh,
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: the circumstance that I was talking about was, you may
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: remember this, often on the on cameras, Marv would say
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: some sarcastic thing about the czar. And what the czar
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: would do would be he'd look away from Marv and
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: back toward the camera as if to silently say to
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: the audience, do you see what I have to put
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: up with? So one time in Portland during the finals
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: in 92, Cookie Johnson had just had a baby. So Magic,
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: who was part of the team for a little while,
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: Magic had missed like the first couple of games in
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: Chicago and now we're in Portland. So he returns and
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: I conclude the opening segment and say, think of the
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: plight of Magic Johnson. leaving the bedside of new mother
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: and child to spend quality time with Marv and the Tsar.
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: And Marv didn't know what was coming. And he goes, yes, Bob.
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: And in order to make magic feel at home, the
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: Tsar will cry every 10 minutes. And when he says that,
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: the Tsar just goes like this. like pleading with the audience.
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: Do you see what my life is like with this guy?
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  Speaker 1: He had just created an entirely new persona for Fratello.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: And Fratello was a person that people knew. Like he'd
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: coached the Hawks for a very long time. Coaches had
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: a kind of certain different level of fame. Now Marv,
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: was very famous right because he did so much for
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: NBC sports he was on Letterman he did football games
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: yeah you know he was well he was well known
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: going up until that point but he just created a
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: persona for Mike Fratello I don't even.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: Know if he just like you know what you're really
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: good with that telestrator it's.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: Like yeah bizarre of the help he was I think
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: we'll stick with this yeah it worked It did. Now,
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: as I talk about this and as we go back
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: and forth with this, there's an irreverence, I think, to
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: the broadcast there. There's an irreverence to the way that
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: Ahmad did sidelines. Ahmad Rashad, quietly, the most interesting man
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: in the world. Like, we had him on here a
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: few years ago. And it is amazing how, it is
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: amazing the rage of story that Ahmad Rashad has on
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: the world. But him on sideline, I didn't realize until
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: we talked to him on this show, he did not
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: know Michael Jordan until they started doing, until NBC got
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: the contract. Like, people associate them like they were thick
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: as thieves. And he's like, no, man, I just met
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: him like at a charity game right.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: Before we started to do this. But that became a
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: defining relationship.
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Now they're super close friends, play golf all the time.
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: Here's the thing about Ahmad. And I've always said this.
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: He did not receive the credit he deserved either on
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: the football show and especially on basketball. A lot of,
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: you know, then every newspaper had a sports media critic
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: usually ran on Fridays, and now all that stuff has
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: migrated to the internet where anybody can say anything they want.
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: But a lot of times they underrated him. And I
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: would say, look, he's not there to do what I do.
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: This isn't 60 Minutes. Athletes gravitate toward Ahmad, not just
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: because he was an athlete himself, a very, very good
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: wide receiver in the NFL. And I think he finished
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: third one year in the Heisman Trophy voting when he
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: was an Oregon Duck. Very good athlete, but there's just
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: something about him. He has charisma. He has presence, but
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: he's also very likable and genial. I took him to
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: spring training once in St. Petersburg, and I was tight
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: with all the Cardinals because I spent most of my
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: adult life in St. Louis. Ahmad had never played much baseball.
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: He grabbed a bat, took batting practice, and was hitting
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: line drives. But Ozzie Smith, Vince Coleman, Whitey Herzog, all
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: these guys gravitated toward Ahmad because he has that star quality.
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: And that is an indispensable asset to a broadcast. When
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: people want to talk with a guy, when they're willing,
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: it's not necessarily an interrogation. Like I said, it's not
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: 60 minutes, but they're willing to come over right in
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: the aftermath of a game and give him the time.
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: That was a huge plus for NBC Sports.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: There was also a different era, and I think where
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: Ahmad and a lot of those guys of that generation
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: don't get credit, I think, for people who see the
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: game the way it works now. That was the generation
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: where those guys were going and working internships at the
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: local news station. It wasn't like Ahmad could leave straight
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: from playing, and now you're on NBC. There was a
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: path that was very similar to the path that everybody
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: else in media took.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, he was able to jump several of those steps, A,
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: because he was who he was. He had credibility as
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: an athlete. He had star power. He looked great on camera.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: And it turned out that you have to be glib
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: to some extent. You know, there are a lot of
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: smart guys who aren't glib. He's both. He understood the assignment.
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: He was comfortable on camera. And most important, other people
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: were comfortable with him. Yeah.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: And you mentioned it earlier.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: It is great timing for NBC also that you got
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: the first Michael Jordan championship.
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. That really helped. The first of three in
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: a row. You know, there's something about him. And I've
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: been asked this question, I know you have many times.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: And in fact, you were on the set when I
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: put the question to Charles Barkley on the very first
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: Back on the Record show. And he explained why he
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: thought Jordan was greater than LeBron, which is not to
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: say that LeBron isn't incredibly great, but the star power,
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: the whole feeling about it, and the idea that casual
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: fans who don't know a pick and roll from a
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: back cut wanted to watch Michael Jordan. He just transcended
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: all of it.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like I think that's the.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: I was talking to, like, the idea about who do
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: you take, Jordan or LeBron? And the part that can't
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: be erased is, hey, man, we were there for this
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: other thing. It's hard to explain what it was at
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: the time. A replay is not going to do it. Like,
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: it felt like time froze in game two of the
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: 91 finals when he went up with one hand and
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: down with the other. And I know you could put
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: a million videos of other people doing it. I can't
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: explain to people. it felt like the world stopped spinning
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: in that moment. They had lost game one, and then
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: they're blowing the Lakers doors off in game two.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: And then that happens. And it was just like, he
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: made the world stop.
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: And you know, you can factor in my little bias
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: as a broadcaster. Very often the way things are appreciated
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: and remembered is framed by a way it was called.
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: And Marv's call was, oh, a spectacular move by Michael Jordan.
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: Now those words are not extraordinary words. But he said
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: them in that Marv Albert voice, and that punctuated it.
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: If Al Michaels doesn't say, do you believe in miracles? Yes,
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: it's still a great upset, but it doesn't echo down
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: the corridors of time the way it did. You think
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: of Kirk Gibson's at bat, the pinch hit home run
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: in 88. If it's not Vin Scully on the call,
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: it's still great, but it's not as great.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: Now, as all this is happening, working for the broadcast,
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: working for the company, was there an awareness that you
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: guys were doing something different?
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: Eventually, pretty soon. You know, somewhere along the line in
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: the first year. Absolutely. We got something good here and
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: we're going to lean into these various aspects. So I
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: think if anything, it just it got better. We weren't
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: doing anything different than what we set out to do,
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: but it just kept getting better. We refined it.
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: And it keeps going.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Like you say, you have three championships of Michael Jordan.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: And so while NBC is putting this together, what is
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: the awareness level of, hey, the star of our story
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: is Michael Jordan?
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: Very much aware and some sense of, uh-oh, the golden
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: goose has left when he had that memorable press conference,
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: didn't announce at that time that he was going to
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: play baseball, but that he was stepping away. Now we
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: did get in the first season of his absence in 94,
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: we did get a seven game final between the Rockets
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: and the Knicks. It wasn't the most artistic final ever,
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: but the games were all close and it did go
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: to a seventh game. And actually one of the most
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: memorable opening narratives, a game seven with a soundtrack from
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: the Gladiator and shots of Wilt walking out and Bird
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: and Magic walking out and Willis Reed limping out for
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: other game sevens. You know, I think we kind of
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: perfected that approach. Then in 95, when Michael came back
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: in March of that year, but he wasn't quite himself
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: and they couldn't get to the finals, as I remember,
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: the Rockets swept Shaq and the Magic. And that was
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: the one real down point during that run. I guess
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: maybe 99, which was the first of the Spurs championships,
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: but there was a lockout. There was a truncated season
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: and the Knicks came from an eighth seed. It was
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: exciting in New York, but not maybe to the rest
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: of the country. Those would be the two, 95 and 99,
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: that didn't live up to our fondest hopes, but the
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: rest certainly did.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: Well, you mentioned the 94 finals. Did anything else happen?
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, OJ and the Bronco Chase, game five, which was
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: bizarre on NBC because every other network, plus by then cable, CNN,
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: and everybody else, went to the Bronco Chase live and
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: stayed with it. But Dick Ebersole had a very difficult
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: decision to make. This isn't just a given NBA game.
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: It's game five of the finals that's tied two games
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: apiece in a big atmosphere at Madison Square Garden. So
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: we were kind of shifting between the two. And it
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: was my job to kind of pass the baton from
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: Marv Albert to Tom Brokaw in the studio and then
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: back to Marv, sometimes with a split screen. So it
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: was unusual, to put it mildly.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: Also, not just the biggest story in America, not just
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: a football player.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: He worked there.
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Like I think the part that can be. easily forgotten
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: was that was the day that O.J. 's television career ended,
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: but he had been on NBC for quite a long
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: time up until that point.
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: Bomani, there were people who were so shaken, parts of
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: the crew, makeup person who loved O.J., crying. Ahmad, was
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: mentioned in that what appeared to be suicide note that
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: was read when it was announced. I think it was
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: Robert Kardashian who read the note that it was announced
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: that he was a fugitive and they were trying to
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: locate him. Ahmaud was mentioned, Marcus Allen and some other
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: people mentioned in this suicide note. Ahmaud was pacing around
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: at Madison Square Garden trying to just pull himself together
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: to go on the air. All of us knew him.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: And all of us liked him. He was always really
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: good company. And I've said this before, the kind of
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: guy who would know the name of the kid who
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: brought the newspapers and the coffee when you first got
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: on the set, the kind of guy who always got
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: the joke that you wanted to go to dinner with
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: and play golf with. You know, we didn't know about
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: the other stuff. At least I didn't. The one thing
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: that was known, and they put it to bed pretty
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: quickly when he was hired in the early 90s, There
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: was one police report of an incident on New Year's
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: Eve a couple of years before, and both he and Nicole,
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: the Unified Front, you know, it's just a little New
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: Year's Eve thing, some drinking, it got out of hand,
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: no big deal. That was the only thing that was
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: known publicly. You know, subsequently, other aspects came out about
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: a history of domestic violence. But at that point, you know,
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: just a few days after the murders, that's all we knew.
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: But we also knew this, just common sense. We didn't
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: want to believe the worst, but An innocent man who
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: has resources to mount the best possible defense and has
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: goodwill with the public doesn't run, doesn't have 10 grand
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: in cash in a bag with his passport. It just
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: doesn't make sense.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it was because I was young enough to
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: be very aware of who OJ Simpson was, but I
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: did not get that that was like, If Barry Sanders for,
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: you know, for, for like my, even Barry Sanders, like
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: there's not even anybody that really fits in.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: It's a television production. Hey, that guy, you know, was
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: in that.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: Car right there, but we also have this basketball game
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: that's going on.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: Like, is that like, he just worked at NBC. He
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: worked at NBC sports. Like this is in your operation.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. And he's with all due respect to Barry Sanders,
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: who I love personally, to the extent that I knew
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: him and his game, he was just a beautiful player
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: to watch, but OJ was a national figure. either the
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: first or among the very first African-American athletes who broke
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: through on commercials. Little old lady, go OJ, go for
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: Hertz as he races through the airport. And he's in
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: the Naked Gun movies, and he's funny as hell in
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: the Naked Gun movies. He's like Michael Jordan. He's a
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: household name. Someone who doesn't know anything about football knew
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: who OJ Simpson was and liked him.
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: And someone in line with the household name thing, I
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: really hadn't thought so much about it until you mentioned it.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: The building of Shaquille O'Neal as a household name is
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: also a very big part of the beginning of the
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: early days of the NBA on NBC. There has not
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: been a rookie who hit the league, not even LeBron James,
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: because he was 18. He wasn't as ready to play
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: as Shaq was. And he instantly became a protagonist in
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: the story that the NBA began to tell.
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and LeBron's rookie year in the NBA is the
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: first year after the NBA on NBC. Right. Dick Ebersole,
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: who co-created Saturday Night Live, he had a sense of
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: television as theater. He had learned how to produce an
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: Olympics from Rune Arledge. He knew that it wasn't enough
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: just to appeal to avid fans. You had to broaden
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: it out, but at the same time serving those avid fans. Now,
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: Jordan was handed to us. It was perfect. When Shaq
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: came along, everyone saw the possibilities. When Kobe came along,
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: everyone saw the possibilities. But we knew how to amplify
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: those possibilities. We were hoping that they'd turn out to
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: be as great as they were. But certainly we were
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: going to set the stage for that possibility.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: Coming up next, we're going to talk with Bob about
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: moving down to do play-by-play and the idea of the
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: importance of the narrative surrounding sports broadcasts. Ever wanted to
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• 25:27
  Speaker 1: All right, we are back with Bob Costas. I believe
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: it was in 1997. You go from the studio and
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: now you're doing play-by-play for that.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: What was that transition for you?
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: Well, I had done a lot of basketball play-by-play, mostly
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: on radio. in my youth. I was the voice of
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: the spirits of St. Louis for two years, the last
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: two years of the ABA, and that's a podcast unto itself.
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: And I did one season of the Chicago Bulls way
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: before Jordan, 1979, 80. And I did the University of
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: Missouri's games when they had very good teams in the
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: late 70s and early 80s on the radio. So I
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: had some background in it, but I was rusty. And
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: Dick Ebersole, who always had an eye for stars, looked
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: around and who's the best available person whose career has
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: just ended? The answer to that was Isaiah Thomas. But
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: Isaiah had no experience with all the kind of dynamics.
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: He would have been better off initially in the studio
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: than as the analyst because you had to master so
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: many different moving parts. So at the beginning, the combination
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: of me being a little rusty and Isaiah just kind
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: of learning the ropes, it wasn't bad, but it wasn't
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: as good as it could become. And one weekend we're
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: in Detroit and we're talking to Doug Collins, who's coaching
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: the Pistons. And it becomes obvious to me that one
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: way or another, he's going to quit, they're going to
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: fire him, something's going to happen, but he ain't going
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: to be here much longer. And I called Dick Ebersole
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: that weekend and I said, look, this guy may be
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: the best analyst going right now. It would have been
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: between him and Hubie. If and when he leaves the Pistons,
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: you better be on the phone with him in the
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: next five minutes. And he left the Pistons. I can't
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: remember whether it was a mutual statement or how they
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: did it, but he left on a Thursday. Three days
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: later on Sunday, he's in Indianapolis with me and Isaiah
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: for Spurs and Pacers. And when it became a three-man booth,
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: which doesn't always work, but Doug took a lot of
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: the pressure off Isaiah, and then they could play off
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: of each other, which is different than playing off a
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: guy who never played at that level. Right. And of course,
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: it was the last dance season. We didn't know how
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: it would turn out. But if Doug hadn't been there,
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: those broadcasts would not have been equal to the moment.
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: But when he got there, the whole thing went up
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: many levels.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: Was there ever a point that you wish that you
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: had gotten Bill Walton in that trade?
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: You know, I love Bill. We all love Bill. And
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: Steve Snapper Jones played on the spirits. So in fact,
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: I was one of the eulogists at Snapper's funeral. And
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: so we were friends from the mid-70s on. Game seven,
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: memorable game seven of the Western Conference Finals in 2000.
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: The game where the Lakers came from 15 down. Right.
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: Seemed like the Trailblazers were going to go to the final.
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: Doug's daughter, Kelly, was graduating from college that weekend. So
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: he couldn't do the game. So the one game I
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: did with Walton and the Snapper was that game seven.
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: Memorable game. And Bill was so into it. He was
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: literally pacing around before the game, like kind of running
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: things through his head. And just about everything's on YouTube.
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: If folks are interested, just put in intro game seven.
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: I'm incidental to it. When you get to Bill and
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: when you think about it, you had a speech impediment
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: that he had to overcome. And so he'd memorized some
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: of the things he wanted to say, at least in
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: the things that could be rehearsed beforehand. And he delivers
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: this soliloquy. Bob, statistics mean nothing here. This is about
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: Shaq and Shaq alone. When he asserts himself, he's able
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: to render thunderous dugs. Even Sabonis cannot contend with him.
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: They have to use up 15 fouls. Just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But...
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: Where has he been in big moments? Disappearing, shrinking from
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: his seven-foot frame. This is unbelievable. I'm looking at him.
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: I'm hoping I'm not on camera because I'm trying not
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: to laugh. It's a combination of this is both absurd
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: and wonderful at the same time. He was so genuine
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: in everything he did. He was so genuine. And of course,
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: because he and Snapper had been teammates on the Trailblazers
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: in the 70s and very, very close friends, of They
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: were a perfect combination. They played off of each other
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: because Snapper could punctuate or puncture. Actually, you know, Bill
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: would go off on some tangent and then Snapper would
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: have some little line that brought the whole thing back
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: to earth was perfect.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: Now, the best part of Snapper and Bill Walton is
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: that was like an old school comedy team. You don't
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: get a lot of like like in a very particular archetype.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: I don't know if Snapper signed up to be the
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: straight man. Dave Pasch took that job on later with
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Bill Walton. But Snapper, Snapper gave us the fun. I
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: can't tell if they like each other.
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: But they loved each other. They were so tight. One
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: of the best sports books ever is David Halberstam's The
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: Breaks of the Game. And he was embedded with that
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: Trailblazer team coached by Jack Ramsey that was so good
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: that won the title in, I guess, 77, beat Dr.
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: J and George McGinnis and company, the Sixers, in the final.
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: And so you could— Snapper is prominent throughout the book, even
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: though he was a fringe player at the end of
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: his career at that point. But he was always so
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: smart and so observant. So, yeah, and you could tell
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: even then that other than Maurice Lucas, who had his
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: back as the enforcer, Snapper was Walton's closest friend on
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: the team, and that just carried over broadcasting-wise. Yeah.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Now, you were also on the call, we were talking
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: about that first year, with Isaiah Thomas and Doug Collins
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: for Jordan Shot 98 in Utah.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And, you know, one of the things I've always felt,
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: and there have been so many others that do it
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: extremely well, But when a moment is big enough, it
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: isn't enough just to call the play. You got to
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: frame it in some way. So we had reason to
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: believe that this was, in fact, the last dance. The
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: term the last dance wasn't invented a few years ago
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: in the documentary. Phil Jackson used it during that last season.
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: And I had forgotten, but in watching the last dance,
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: when they came out on the floor for game five,
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: I actually said, if this is the last dance, it
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: might as well be on their dance floor. Then, of course,
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: Utah won the game and forced it back to the
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: Delta Center. So it was in the air the whole time.
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: Is this the end of the Bulls as we have
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: known them? And is this the end of one of
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: the greatest and most transcendent careers in the history of
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: American sports? So it wasn't enough if it was just
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: Joe Blow that makes a big shot with five seconds
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: to go, turns a one-point deficit into a one-point win.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: That's a big deal. That's front page of the sports section.
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: But you'd have to be pretty unaware not to realize
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: this is front page of the newspaper when newspapers still
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: really mattered. This isn't just Sports Illustrated. This is Time
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: and Newsweek. This is Michael Jordan and the Bulls Dynasty.
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: And so the way that was covered, and I have
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: to give great credit to Andy Rosenberg, who directed, and
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: David Neal, who produced. The way we captured that moment,
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: I think, stood the test of time. And when I
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: watched The Last Dance, you know, I'm always really very self-critical.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: But I really felt a good deal of satisfaction about
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: the way we treated that moment.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: What I remember about those last two possessions are kind
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: of the moments of silence, the silence it felt like
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: existed when Jordan comes and takes the ball from Malone
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: from behind. And then the shot goes up and it felt,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: at least on television, like pin drop status.
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And I'm sure you've seen the still picture from
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: kind of. the angle, and you can see all these
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: Utah fans on the baseline behind the basket with this
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: look of dread on their face. Oh, no. He's open.
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: He's delivered it. And in the split second between now
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: and when that ball is going to enter the rim,
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: we are toast. Yeah.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: And there's one kid in a Bulls jersey, both hands up. Like,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: got it.
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: Got it.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: But before we go, I wanted to ask you specifically
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: about this, and you mentioned it earlier, and it was
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: about the building of a narrative around the game.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: That has been a criticism of modern.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: Basketball production in particular, but I think generally sports coverage,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: that we have in a lot of ways separated the
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: narrative from these games. A point that you made when
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: we did Back on the Record that stuck with me was,
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: the infiltration of gambling content ignores the fact that nobody
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: ever got into this so they could gamble, right? Like
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: it's something that you do once you get there, but
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: it's not why anybody showed up for it. In your words,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: what is the importance of the narrative in building a broadcast?
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Because I think part of that is what we associate
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: with NBC. Like we didn't even get to talk about
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: the Shaq and Kobe run, but a big part of
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: it is all those games felt big. And one of
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: the things that I noticed people immediately commenting on was
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: with the NBC broadcast generally, and specifically with the work
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: that you've done there, is making the games feel big again.
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: And some of that is just nostalgic. And after all,
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: these are regular season games. You get the real narrative
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: when you get into postseason series, and one game builds
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: on another. When you talk about Kobe and Shaq, I
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: remember the last one, the very last one in 2002,
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: when they were going for the sweep against the Nets,
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: who were so overpowered. It was a foregone conclusion. And
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: we did this whole thing about dynasties, going back to
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: George Mikan and the Minneapolis Lakers. And the idea was,
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: the question is not whether they'll be the champions, but
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: how many more can they run off to determine their
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: ultimate place in history? The answer was for Kobe Shaq, none.
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: Of course, Kobe got two more and Shaq got championships elsewhere.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: But that ended before it came to fruition in truth.
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: But on that particular night, We're thinking this is a
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: juggernaut that is just getting started. But that's what we did.
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: And I don't mean to be critical of anyone else.
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: Mike Breen's a Hall of Fame broadcaster. You know, Kevin
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: Harlan is super excited at all times. There were a
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: lot of really good people that worked at CBS before
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: us and at ESPN, ABC, and TBS after. But what
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: they didn't have was that ethos, not just an element,
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: but an important element, the element, What's the narrative? What's
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: the story? So when most games come on, no matter
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: where it is, it's a bunch of quick cuts, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: to a bunch of people who are involved. But what's
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: the story? The story can't just be, here's a bunch
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: of stars. It's exciting. Now let's play. So we leaned
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: into a different way of doing it. And even as
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: the world has changed and the media landscape has changed,
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: pretty clear to me that people still appreciate it.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what I've said recently is I think it's an
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: important distinction that people need. Sports is treated as entertainment,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: but that's kind of like a corporate sort of outlook.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: It's entertaining, but entertainment wishes to replicate that which exists
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: naturally in the world of sport. Like the moment's attention,
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: the feeling that this is the most important thing that's
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: going on in the world right now, the nature of competition,
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: the way the characters are laid out. all we kind
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: of have to do is point it out, where in
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: all these other realms, people are trying to figure out
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: how to build it from the ground up, which is why,
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: to me, it's very, very important that we lean in
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: on the fact that these games feel.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: Like something, right? Like, we're not just here just because
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: it's fun to watch.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: Like, people invest their lives in this in ways that
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: we often find insane, but that speaks to the point.
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's why I think it's always been important
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: to have writers who involved, not just behind the scenes,
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: to have people like you, to have Tom Verducci now
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: at the Major League Baseball Network, who still does great
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: work at Sports Illustrated, because those people naturally see things
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: from a narrative standpoint. That doesn't mean that they're oblivious
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: to the fact that, are we going to bunt here
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: or play hit and run? Or what are we going
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: to do? Or who's going to get the ball in
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: this out-of-bounds play? That's what the game coverage is for.
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: But before the game and after the game, what went
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: down here? And is it just a game? Or is
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: this a game that people will still be talking about?
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: If Al Michaels didn't say what he said, then people
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: would not have remembered it quite the same way. And
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: if the Olympics were not framed the way the Olympics
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: have generally been framed, first by Rune Arledge at ABC
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: and then later by Dick Ebersole and his successors at NBC,
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: and if Vin Scully wasn't Vin Scully and if Jim
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: McKay wasn't Jim McKay, then people would remember those moments
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: less vividly. than they do now. So that's what we
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: set out to do. And I guess sometimes we succeeded.
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: That is Bob Costas.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: Catch him on the NBA, the NBA on NBC, Major
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: League Baseball on NBC also.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: My man, thank you so much.
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: I'm in an emeritus role. No heavy lifting. The other
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: night at the Garden, I did the opening narration. I
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: interviewed Steve Kerr for about four minutes. And about 10
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: minutes into the broadcast, I was already sitting courtside to
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: just watch the game. That's what it has to be now.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Well done, sir. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much.
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: Thanks, Bo. Always good to see you.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: Likewise, man.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: And ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: here on The Right Time. We do this four days
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: a week. Ryan Brumley handles everything behind the scenes.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: Thank you, sir.
• 38:28
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• 38:40
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• 38:41
  Speaker 2: Take it easy.