Latest / The Living Waters Podcast / Ep 361 - How to Avoid Showmanship in Christianity

Transcript

Ep 361 - How to Avoid Showmanship in Christianity · The Living Waters Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_04: I I often recite to myself the verses that say, Don't be wise in your own eyes.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_04: Don't think more highly of yourself than you ought.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_04: If anyone thinks himself to be something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, these are all different scriptures, but it's true.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_04: Like we are nothing.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_04: Apart from him, we can do nothing.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_04: Paul says, What do you have that you did not receive?
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_04: And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you didn't?
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_04: We have this treasure in earthen vessels, and any wisdom we might have has come from the Lord.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_04: And if we remember that, like that's genuine humility to me.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's not denying per se that you have a gift, it's not denying that God uses you and maybe you're effective, it's recognizing he is your source.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and without him, you'd have nothing and can do nothing.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_04: And if God takes his hand off you, you're done, man.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_04: If he doesn't hold your atoms together, you are done.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_04: For those of you who don't know Franz, Ray Comfort, what are you doing, Ray?
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_04: Drinking coffee.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_04: We've created a monster.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_04: Anyways, as I was saying, Franz, Ray Comfort is my father-in-law.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_04: I've actually been shocked by how many people like don't know that.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_04: I'll know people for years.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_04: And I'll be like, oh, he's your father-in-law.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_04: It happens to Rachel, too.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_05: I've been trying to keep it quiet.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_04: I figured there's a conspiracy.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_04: Anyhow, being that Ray Comfort's my father-in-law, we talk oftentimes.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_04: I'm sorry about that, Ray.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_04: Just to talk, you know, just to chat.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_04: And the other day we were talking, and for some reason, I still have no idea why, Ray, because you never went on to tell me, but Ray brought up Michael Bublet.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um Michael Bublet.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_04: You guys know Michael Bublet?
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_04: We don't.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_04: I know Kirk was a big fan back then.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_05: You have never heard of him?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_04: I have.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_04: Singer.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_05: Anyhow, 75 million records.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_05: That's it?
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_05: Worldwide.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_05: That was just to us mother.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_04: As Ray mentioned, Michael Bublet, uh, I went on to inform Ray that I think I can sing just as good, or if not better.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_04: I agree.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_04: Than Michael Bublet and Frank Sinatra.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_04: Now, seriously, why can I not?
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_04: Why would it be that I can't?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Give us give us a taste.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: Regrets.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: I've had a few, but then again, too few dimension.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: I did what I had to do and saw it through without exactly.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_05: I need more coffee.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_05: Why is that?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_05: That was that's the best Elvis I've heard you do.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_05: That was great.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: That was Madonna.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: That was a good thing.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_04: I've never heard the insults that Ray hurled at me on the phone when I was awful.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: But why?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_04: I threw my cell phone away when you did that.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: You don't understand why you're not as good.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_05: Why can't I sing?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_05: It's because we sound better to ourselves than we do to other people.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_05: That's what listen.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_05: That's right.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_05: We heard it.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_05: Regrets, I have a few.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_05: One of them is real singing.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: I did it my way.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: We can tell.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: We can tell.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's good.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_04: No, it's not, is it, though?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_04: No, it's not.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_04: You know what?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_04: I was thinking yesterday, I was thinking about this because I was.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_08: This reminds me of sin.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_04: That's true.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_04: It looks good.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, we always think it doesn't look that bad from our perspective.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_04: From the Lord's perspective.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_04: I was talking to someone recently and they they had an accent.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_04: And as they're talking, I'm thinking to myself, do they know they have an accent?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_04: Like, could could a person with an accent hear themselves and identify, or do they think they sound like everyone else?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know that you have an accent?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I do.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_04: Do you know, Ray, when you speak that you're not?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_05: No, I speak.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_05: God speaks.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_05: If God spoke now, like if you said thou shalt not kill, he'd say it in a New Zealand accent, obviously.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: A my thou shall not kill.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: Not like that.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's it is weird though, you know, when you when you think about like the the whole um American Idol syndrome.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, there are really now, I okay, for the record friends, those of you that may not know, I know I sing horribly.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_04: I love to play the game, but there are people.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_04: I wouldn't say it's that good.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_04: I'll sing again, Ray.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_04: Be careful.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_04: No, it doesn't know that sounds um but but you know, the whole American idol syndrome.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_08: There wasn't one person in that person's life that was like, you shouldn't do that.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_04: That's what I'm saying.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_04: Seriously, like, but but the offense, you know, like when they're like, what are you talking about?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_04: Like they're yeah, they're literally shocked.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_04: It's not an act.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_04: And everyone could that what is that called?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_08: Gentle parenting?
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_04: You're the best.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_04: But I mean, you seriously, you feed someone that and they're tone-deaf and they don't realize it, and they just think, oh, I'm great.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I can detect how bad your singing is, and I've got no ear for music.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_04: You don't need that.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_04: But you can whistle really well.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I whistle well.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_05: But if someone says in church you're whistling well, I stop.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know what to do.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_05: That was wonderful.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_05: I'll tell you, Tony's really good at whistling.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_05: He did the whole blue Danube for me when we were in Venice.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_05: Really?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it was wonderful.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_04: Hey Tony, chime in.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_04: Let us hear you whistle.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_05: He's gone.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: I hear a lot of wind.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's a lot of wind.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: You took a window.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_04: But not bad, not bad.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_04: Oh man.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_04: Anyway, um, what do you say, Ray?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_05: Anyway, is a great filler.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_04: Sing on a hill faraway.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_04: What are you doing?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_04: What is going on?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, Mark Spence.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: All right, time for a cool classic comment.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_04: This is from Ariana Jimenez Grande Mendez.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_04: Ariana Jimenez Mendez.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_04: Hello, brothers.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_04: If there was a pinned option for the most important episode on your podcast, it would be episode 353, How to Know Yourself.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_04: It was beyond stimulating.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_04: Every point from each of you all touched uh was profound and relatable topics of today's lives of Christians and non-Christians, of how to know oneself.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_04: And Oscar is prideful.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_04: What wait, where did that come from?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_04: The guy pointing to himself.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's a recent one we just did, wasn't it?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: That was one where Easy wasn't able to join us.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_05: I think if I remember it was a fun episode.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_05: I really enjoyed it.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that was.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Brother A Comfort, I give thanks to my good friend and sister in Christ, Kimmy, for telling me about your YouTube videos about seven years ago.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_04: I was only two years in my walk of being a born-again Christian.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_04: I'm eternally grateful to you and your ministry for equipping us as Christ followers, for encouraging, for helping us stay rooted for your love, passion, and consistency for the cause of Christ.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_04: I appreciate the Living Waters team.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_04: God is truly so good.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_04: Brother Easy, you are such a character, having such spark and joy, making me laugh out loud like a crazy person by myself.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_04: When you sing and rap so amazingly.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_04: Wow, she has got discernment.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_04: She has got discernment.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_04: Brother Mark.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_04: She just lost credibility.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Brother Mark says, So wait, say this slowly, please.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_04: Brother Mark, your passion and convicting points are so wise.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_04: Brother Oscar, uh, where do I begin?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_04: You're rad for enjoying coffee.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_04: I too enjoy coffee.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_04: Forget the haters.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, we love coffee.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_04: Black is sick.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_04: I appreciate hearing your amazing testimony, your in-depth knowledge, book references, and excellent points from God's Word.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_04: You're all truly shining for Jesus.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_04: Peace be with you, my brothers in Christ.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_04: Leaning on the rock of ages, Ariana.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_04: Praise the Lord.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you, Ariana.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I will keep singing.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_04: By the way, shout out to Belize, where we just hit number one for Christian Podcasts.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_04: I don't believe it.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_04: I knew that was coming.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_04: And number 12 in Hong Kong.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_04: Whoa.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_04: So shout out, guys.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_04: Out of 11 there.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks for listening.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_03: All right, friends, and now a radically revolutionary resource.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_03: This podcast is back to you.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_04: The tracked sample pack.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_04: Ray, when did you first come up with this tracked sample pack?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, way back in uh the mid-1990s.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_05: We had a it wasn't as nice as the one we have now, but we did have a track sample pack.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_05: And the reason we produced it is so people could see samples of our tracks in a pack.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_05: In a pack.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_04: Well, not a pack now.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_04: It's a box.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it is a box, yeah.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_04: It's a wonderful box.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, what's a good idea?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_04: Did we used to have the Superman?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_05: No, it wasn't called Superman, it was still called Super Trax.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_04: Super tracks, but we we probably dead copy the Superman insignia, not knowing any better back in that day.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_05: No, I didn't.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_05: No, no, we were not.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_04: That's a very that's a very very uh copyright.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, we did a unique.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_04: You're about to get sued by Clark King.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_04: Superman.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_04: Were you guys Superman fans as kids?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_05: I I still am.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_05: Really?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_05: I think it's a wonderful concept.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_05: But someone's humble and meek and unknown, and suddenly they become sss it's the gospel.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Easy, have you ever thought about the irony of how Superman was reduced down to a wheelchair?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, quoting me.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she've got a whole thing there.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: Quoting me.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, yeah.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_04: It's absolutely tragic, though.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_04: Seriously.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_04: Breaks my changed his mighty wind-gushing lungs for a ventilator, his robust and bulletproof body for one that no longer worked.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_04: Tragic.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_04: His cape for wheelchair.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_04: But you know that that's not actually Superman, right?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_04: That's just an actor.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_04: Wait, what do you mean?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_04: What are you talking about?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_04: Don't tell Mark there was no Santa.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_04: So easy senior year.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_05: Watch your kryptonite.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_04: My kryptonite?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_04: Um, bad hats.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_04: Watch your krypton tonight.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_05: Mono brand.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_05: It's an inside joke.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_03: All right, friends.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_03: Don't forget the Living Waters mug from which you can chug the Evidence Study Bible.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_04: The Evidence Study Bible.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_04: It's always sitting on this desk.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_04: We always talk about it.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_05: It's coming out in bonded leather.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_04: Ray, tell people about that.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_04: Seriously.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's a evidence bible and it's coming out in bonded leather.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_05: No, that's you nailed it on that one, I think.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_05: It's bonded.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_05: That means it's got leather in it, but it's combined with something to uh I thought bonded.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_05: No cows were injured in the corner of the city.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_05: That was gonna be genuine.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_05: No, that's uh would put the price well over well over the top if it was genuine.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_05: What do we currently have?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_05: Bonded leather is real leather, but it's combined with something to make it more supple.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, right.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_05: Go ahead, Oscar.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_05: Anyway, it's quality.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_05: And it's got the little things for your thumbs all the way through.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_05: Index staff.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_05: Index staff.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_04: Beautiful.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_08: I thought that was.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_08: So anyway, as I was I thought bonded leather was when two cows got married.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_04: Is that original?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_04: That just happened.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_04: Chat.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_04: Wait, was that really original?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_04: It just happened to be.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you said is that original?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_04: Is that chat that told you that was that original?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_05: I think that was better than normal.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_04: That was really good.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_04: All right, friends.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, and don't forget Living Waters TV and Living Waters and all setup.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, Living Waters! And don't forget Podcast YouTube channel, which is exploding.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_04: It's exploding.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_04: Exploding.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_04: We had lots of um yeah, lots of uh views and coffee.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_04: We had more subscribers.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_08: New subscribers on that channel than we did on our main channel.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, it's taken off, taken off.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_03: All right, friends, today, how to avoid what we've been doing on the show all day showmanship in Christianity.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_05: That's exactly what I thought when you sang Ywe at the beginning.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_04: Oh that was humility, yeah.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_04: Letting the world see my despicable singing.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, um, how to avoid showmanship in Christianity.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_08: What inspired this inspired this one, right?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_08: Easy?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I was just thinking um there's a lot of showmanship, right?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_05: Why is it showmanship and not showwomanship?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_05: Ooh, yeah, because a man came up with quality showing up.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_04: We should fight for that.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_04: We should fight that for that.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think Oscar, you know, I was just thinking about uh all that scripture says about how we're prone as people to do our good works before men to be seen by them.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_04: And how so often, because of how influenced we are by people, how affected we are by what people think of us, opinion, uh wanting to have significance, all that, it can play into, I think, genuineness and authenticity in our walks with the Lord.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_04: And so I thought uh it would be a good one.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_04: What are you two doing?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: I can't believe how addicted Ray is to coffee now after three years.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Did he lick the lid again?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: I took it off to see if there's any at the top.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like a popsicle?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_04: Ray, so wait, wait, Ray, so Oscar, what did you give Ray today, by the way?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_08: I gave him there's a a Christian coffee shop nearby called Hollos.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_08: I thought it was Christian.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_08: It is, it tastes Christian.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_08: Called Hollows.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_08: Hollows.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_08: Hollows.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_08: H-O-L-O-S.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_08: Shout out to them, they're great.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_08: Uh, and so they have a latte that's kind of their specialty.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_08: It's oat milk, Earl Grey tea, and espresso.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_08: Wow.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_08: Tea in there?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_05: I can't see how people would call stuff from oats milk.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_05: Well, and almond and all that.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_05: Oat water.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_05: Coke water milk.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_05: It doesn't sound the same, doesn't it?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_05: Oat sweat.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_05: Anyway.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_05: I really enjoyed it.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_05: Was it really sweet?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_04: Was it sweet?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, reasonably.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, it has sweetness in it.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_04: Where does the sweetness come from?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_04: Sugar or I don't know.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_05: Good question.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_05: I have fallen in love with coffee.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_05: Um, as we touched the other day, 59 years since I've had it.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_05: I've had so much energy because of it, and I was lacking energy so much, and it's just been wonderful.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_05: So what's happening is this is virgin territory.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_05: There hasn't been any coffee in this little body for 59 years, and it's given me energy.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_05: So if you're envious, I've got some advice for you.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_05: Lay off coffee for 59 years, and when you have your next cup, it's gonna send you out of this world.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_04: It's like someone who doesn't drink alcohol.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_04: Once they're gone, right?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_04: You're a madman.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_04: You're really doing it.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_04: You're really, really feeling a difference.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, yes, yeah, absolutely.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_05: I haven't had a snooze, a daily snooze, since I started coffee, and I always have snoozes.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_05: I I I I um at Saturday I interviewed five people at Huntington Beach, and I didn't feel like snoozing when I drove home, like I usually feel.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, it's a good one.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_05: I felt refreshed.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_05: And and it does turn to energy.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_05: It's just amazing.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_05: He called me yesterday and he goes, uh, I bought Colombian beans.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_08: Is that good?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_04: It's a long drive down there, but it was worth it.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_04: So, Ray, it's doing more for you than the cocaine did?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_04: Or that was like a joke.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_04: We're joking.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, we're kidding, uh, we're just joking.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, well, I'm happy, Ray, for you.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_05: No, I am very happy myself.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_05: Seriously.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_05: I was I was making it a matter of urgent prayer because of so lacking energy.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_05: And so this has just been one editing.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_05: And I've got up for prayer again.
• 14:59
  unknown: Yeah.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_05: Remember, I for 38 years I got up at night for prayer.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_05: When I turned 70, I had to stop because I fell asleep on my knees, night after night after night.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_05: But since I started the coffee, I've been getting up at midnight again.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_04: But you're still able to sleep at night, too?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_05: I just think of one of your sermons and away I go.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_08: All right.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_08: We should put some parameters on here.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_08: There should be you should have limits on how much coffee and when you see.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_05: Well, we're changing the name of a ministry to Living Coffee.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_04: It's gonna be 10 cups before you know it.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_05: 10, one for each commandment.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_05: Living, living coffee ministries.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_04: Living coffee.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_04: All right, friends.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, yeah, so how to avoid childmanship in Christianity.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, Oscar, that was what did you just look to see if I had coffee that you could have right?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_04: So, so guys, let's let's jump into this.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I think we can all relate.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_04: I can relate, especially as a new believer, you know, coming from a world where everything was performance-based acceptance for me.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_04: I grew up with that sort of background of you perform well, you're accepted, you're loved, you're hailed.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_04: And I've shared the story with you guys before when I stopped feeling the love at that church where I was in the youth group, I was gonna leave.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_04: And it was all about what I was getting from people, you know.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_04: And so this is this is an important uh topic, I think, for us to hit.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_04: And I I think it's important first of all for us to begin by talking about what it is that compels us in that direction.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_04: Why is it that we're so tied up with what man thinks of us?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_04: You guys heard the saying, right?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_04: We buy things we don't need with money we don't have to impress people we don't like.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_04: Now, obviously, as Christians, we love everybody.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_04: But but that that book has most people that has a ring of truth to it, you know.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, let's jump into it.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_08: I think you tapped into something just now, which is like we think about showmanship you and performance-based, you you went right to the core heart issue.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_08: And it it was Luther that pointed out that all of our sins are rooted in like these three or four main sins, um, which are all idolatrous in nature.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_08: And one of those three or four sins is uh the need for approval or the praise of men.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_08: And so I I think you're you're right, man.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_08: Inerrant in every single one of us is this incessant uh diabolical need for approval.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_08: And that actual our actual desire for approval is rooted in wanting to be reconnected with God.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_08: But because we are fallen fallen, we dis distort that desire and instead seek the approval of the men.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_08: And so we do that.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_08: Um, and it's I think the approval men is a drug.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_08: It's a drug because you you get it and you're like, oh, that was that felt really good.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_08: And so then you want you're not satisfied, and so you want more approval, and you'll go to greater lengths and greater and greater lengths until you lose a sense of self all to seek the approval of other people.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_08: And when you said showmanship, well, you you sent this is a podcast title that you had suggested.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_08: My thought process didn't just go to like everyday common experiences, it actually went to pastors in the pulpit.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah, that too.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_08: Because one of the things that frustrates me like is anytime you see on YouTube a pastor pulls out a prop, I usually am like, oh man, here we go.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, there's a coke can or something stupid, like a banana or something like that.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_08: There's a right way of doing it, but it's gotten to the extreme where I've seen guys ride out on Harleys.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_08: Oh, yeah.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_08: I've seen them swing down on like cables, I've seen them grab gigantic pink ladders and climb up, and it's the showmanship is such a distraction from the word of God.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_08: And I think I think inerrant in that is the incessant need of approval from other people.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_04: No, it's it's true.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_04: And um pink ladder?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah, I'll send you a video.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_04: In particular, that's a real, I'm referencing a real YouTube video.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_04: Wow, that's crazy.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_04: You know, Ray, I remember.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_04: What component do you use?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_04: Silver.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_04: No, I'm glad you brought that up, Oscar.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_04: And and those of you that listen, friends, you know that we're very um kind of sort of organic in the way that we do this.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I we put out the topics and then we go.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_04: So I wasn't thinking of that angle, but it applies.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_04: But Ray, on that point, and we'll get back to the broader stuff too.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_04: But I remember you had a very well-known Christian leader say to you before you went up to preach, I can tell you've already been broken before you went up to preach.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_05: Who said that?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I I yeah, I it was it was a Christian leader.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_04: But but um how important is that for the preacher so that they don't become a showman?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_05: Um very important.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_05: I remember one preacher, pastor, as I was stepping up to the pulpit, he was stepping down, large church, he said 1217.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_05: What?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_05: That was when I was to finish.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_05: Oh.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_05: So I ended up by saying, for God so loved the what Oh.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_05: But yeah, brokenness is something that's that's a prerequisite for anyone going into the pulpit to have a broken spirit.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_05: Not to get up there and pray, because that's the issue we're talking about, pride or humility.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_05: You know, a preacher can manufacture applause from his congregation, really.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_05: I see it all the time and it irks me horribly.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_05: What you do is you you you you say a sentence building up to a crescendo, and then you stop, and there's dead silence, and that evokes applause from your audience.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_05: And I think that's just thank you.
• 20:47
  unknown: Thank you.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_05: And you just stop, and then people just clap and it goes on.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_05: And a politics.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_04: I've seen it when those pauses have happened and there was no applause.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_04: Talk about humiliation.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_05: So, how did you feel?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_05: So politicians do it all the time.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_05: That's why there's so much applause when political speech, but there's no place for that in the pulpit.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_05: And one other thing that I absolutely dislike intensely is standing ovations.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_05: And there's a reason I can't stand them.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_05: It's this is what happens.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_05: Somebody stands up in a congregation, and then there's everyone feels obligated to stand up because he's just stood up and applauded.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_05: I better do it.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_05: I don't want to be seen to be sitting down when everyone else is standing up that I hate the preacher.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_05: It seems like I hate the preacher.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_05: So I remember once I was in a church in North Carolina, and uh I was just new to the US, and I was very moved by it.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_05: But they gave me a standing ovation.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_05: They didn't even know me, and I thought, this is just beautiful.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_05: And then they said, bro, Sister So-and-so's here tonight, and they gave her a standing ovation.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_05: Then they gave somebody else a standing ovation in the same service.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_05: And I thought, oh look, a car's gone past, they're gonna give the car a standing ovation.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_05: But it was just uh I just a tradition, but yeah, it's something I really I dislike intensely.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_05: You reminded me when we went to like a shouldn't get your family to go to the service and say, would you just stand up at the beginning?
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_08: We went to our daughter's like uh chorus, choir concert in like sixth grade, and when it was over, everyone's standing and applauding, and my wife looks at me and she's like, Why aren't you standing?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_08: I'm like, because it wasn't very good.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_08: We're just sixth graders trying to learn to sing.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_08: Why are we standing for this?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's it is a it's crazy, right?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, especially the contrast with New Zealand, because they don't that they don't do a lot of that.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_05: They might give you a sitting ovation.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_04: If that, right?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_05: We've got a we've got an inside joke between us.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_05: The the New Zealand response to anything with excitement is compare that to the Lebanese.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_05: Ah lay!
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_04: That too, right?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but Mark, look, we're all preachers here and we've all preached, and there is there is that enjoyment of people uh being blessed by what you've shared.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_04: There's nothing wrong with that, but there is that lure today for people to want to show off.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_04: How does that affect congregants when pastors have that showmanship type attitude?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I don't know entirely, you know, what that is.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I don't know if if they do.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: I I I don't think I'm part of we're not part of churches like that uh necessarily.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was thinking back on Oscar's idea of uh props and stuff, and I think of Francis Chan's prop at the road.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well that was a good one, yeah.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, man, that was so good.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: We we just watched inside of our house the other day, and it's gotten a lot of flack, you know, a lot of people.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: He got roped into that, yeah.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, unfortunately There was a lot of loose ends on that one.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: Don't get him tied in knocks.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_04: Unfortunately, what, Mark?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_04: What are you saying?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um he's kind of fallen off the deep end with his ecumenic ecumenism.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I think that's an applicable word.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: His approval of uh give me another word.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Catholicism.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_04: Sure.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_08: And then he did a he did a why are we trying to have us finish your sandwiches?
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we we love Francis.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_04: We don't know what's happened.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_04: We'll pray for him.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but he had a really great, I thought it was a really great analogy.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: No, you know, uh look it up.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Francis Chan rope analogy on YouTube.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna see it.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's left an impression.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's left an impression on my kids.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, our youth group.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you explain that?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: I I wanted them to look it up.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_05: It's so ton.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_05: How would you explain it?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_04: The evangelist Ray.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_04: Well, he has this rope and it's really long, and he says, look, imagine this rope goes all the way out of the sanctuary and it's infinite, just keeps going and going.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_04: He says, uh, and then look at the top of the rope.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_04: He has like six inches marked off, and then at the tip he has like an inch of red marked off.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_04: And he says, the black part, which is six inches, represents your life.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_04: That little red part represents your retirement years, and then the rest of the rope represents eternity.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_04: And he says, People are living in this, in this like five-inch space with all their heart so that they could get to that one inch that's left of life to really enjoy it, and they're not doing anything about eternity.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it really does.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_04: You have a great memory at some.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I just love it.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_04: Oh.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I wrote the illustration.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_04: It's one of the best illustrations you've ever given him, right?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Listen, if if I was still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that needs to be kind of written on the podiums of churches today.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember who said it, and I don't remember the quote exactly, but it was if if you don't This is gonna be powerful.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember where I heard it, so Martin.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know if I like it.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know anything about it.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Great quote, Laura.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Have you got to it yet?
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember who I was with or where Martin needs coffee.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you mentioned Martin Luther a bit ago, Oscar.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_04: He he said this said, God creates out of nothing.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_04: Therefore, until a man is nothing, God can make nothing out of him.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_04: Man, Luther, good man.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_04: And and it's so true.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_04: I I think that the whole approach to showmanship, and and now let's talk about that, right?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_04: Doing good works to be noticed by men, to get praise from man, to get applause, to to get recognition, even to feel good, you know.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um all of it, I think, has at its core the thought that we are something, or we're trying to prove that we're something.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_04: You know?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_04: And so I I think it's good for us to to dissect that and to kind of get into that and figure out like how can we avoid it?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_04: What are the things that that can help us steer clear of that?
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_05: I think the major thing for me is that in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_05: It's just the knowledge that everything I do, everything I say, is seen by and heard by God.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_05: And that helps me.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_05: I preached at a church last night and I think to myself, what did I pray beforehand?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_05: It was really, oh God, help me to make this come alive.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_05: I want to encourage the hearers.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_05: I don't want to impress them with my speaking, I want to impress them with what I say.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_05: And so I think the essence of where we're at spiritually is in what we pray in secret prayer before we preach.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_05: Not what we preach, but what we pray before we preach.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_05: Because that's not scene of man, that's scene of God.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and that's all that matters.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_05: That's good.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_05: I give praise to the coffee for that one.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_08: I think I think that the idea of showmanship and praise is so much more prevalent and written into culture and expectation.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_08: And a part of that is because of how ingrained we are with social media.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_08: Like social media has designed us to think likes, followers, comments, engagement, even if you're not an influencer or whatever.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_08: Um, you know, I've often like I know people who I've seen at coffee shops where someone will sit down and they'll take out their Bible and they'll angle it and they'll take out a notebook and they'll put it right here, and then they position their coffee perfectly.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_08: And, you know, good, and then they take a picture of it and then they post it, and then you just see them just looking at the phone, looking at the phone, looking at the phone.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_08: And an hour later they pack it all up and they leave.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_08: And they probably, I don't know what they posted, but they probably posted, you know, here for my morning devotional.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_08: And they're gonna get the likes and they're gonna get the subscribes.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_08: And I think if we're if we're being brutally honest, that that aspect of social media has affected every single one of us.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_08: Every single one of us are walking around all day through the lens of is this postable?
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_08: What filter should I use?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_08: How many people would like and comment on this?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_08: Should I do it?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_08: Should I do it?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_08: You know, and I think you see that we I've talked to people, I've heard from people talk about like, I want to start evangelizing, but I need to get a camera.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_08: It's like start evangelizing.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_08: Ray was evangelizing long before he started posting stuff on the camera.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Before cameras existed, right, exactly.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_08: Before, yeah, before existence existed.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_08: The point is, is we do so much, so much for showmanship.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_08: We we do so much for the approval of others, and I think it's it's ingrained in all of us.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_08: And I'll just say one other thing, which is going back to the preaching aspect, it's funny because now I see preachers even preach in this way.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_08: You'll see them preach for Instagram, in which they're they like they have this little one or two minute clip, and it's like they work it intentionally into their sermon because they know this is gonna go viral.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_08: If I mention this, if I talk about that culturally, I know.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_08: And if you watch it and like I've seen it happen where and then I'll like go back and watch the sermon, and that little one or two minute clip almost does.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_08: Even work.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_08: You know what I mean?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_08: It's just built in because they that's the post that they want.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_08: So I think I think Instagram has or social media in general has affected all of life.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_05: I got a little confession here, and I think Easy might agree with me.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_05: I just love using humor in a sermon.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_05: Oh yeah.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_05: It's like a little mountaintop in the middle of it.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_05: It's so neat when people laugh at something like that.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_05: Because you're giving them pleasure and it comes back on you make sure.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_05: That's great, Mark.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_08: But you do in a diffusing way.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_08: You do in a way that draws them into the truth.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_08: Because again, to the point, like I'm we're not saying props are all bad and humor is all bad.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_08: You need to go up there and sound like some 80-year-old Presbyterian.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_08: No offense to Presbyter.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_04: 90% of our audience is saying that comes up also from the Presbyterian church.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_08: I love my Presbyterian friends.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_08: You guys know that.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_08: But the point is, is like these things, when used for the glory of God, is okay.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_08: But more often than not, it's used for the glory of self.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_05: You reminded me of Mark, you carry on.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_05: It reminded me of a quote by Spurgeon.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_05: We spoke some spoke of boring preachers.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_05: He said, whose victims nature does well to give relief through sleep.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_05: And so we're talking about showmanship, but something else comes into it, and that's the area of having life in what you're speaking.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_05: You're really was it Abraham Lincoln said when I hear a man preach, I want to see him like he's fighting off bees or something like that.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_05: So that there's a there's a balance to the whole thing where you've got to have some life in that which you say, and you're gonna have a little bit of movement, but not be a showman about it.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I am.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: Boy, listen, and I agree also with you here, uh Ray, and easy, you know, the same thing.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: Do you like humor as well?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: Then all four of us, right?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: I I I love the idea because the message at times is is very heavy, it's very weighty.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: And you get a congregation that is almost holding their breath the whole time, right?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like uh enough.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: Give me uh a source of release and relief from what you're saying.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: So bring it in that humor.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, huh.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Plus, we're emotional beings, right?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: We we can navigate through a conversation and touch upon all the sorts of emotions.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a good preacher is able to do that.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_05: A great preacher, don't I don't want to say who it is because it makes me seem like a spurgenite, but he said humor in a sermon is like a flash of lightning on a dark dark night.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_05: You go and then you wait for the next one.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it replaces your mind, yeah, you know, and it it re-engages you, I think.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: So this is now different than what we're talking about here, showmanship.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like I don't remember who said it or where they said it, but the the idea that the quote and the idea was if you don't study, you don't prep and prepare, and you hit the pulpit without those things, you're not interested in delivering a message.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: You're delivering uh a desire to be seen in front of the people.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're more interested in being an entertainer than a preacher of righteousness.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: So to rightly divide the word of truth, you need to allow the cards to fall where they may, regardless of how that makes you look.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_04: You know, uh, 1 Corinthians 16, 14.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_04: Wow, Ray.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_04: That's a delay there.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_05: No, I I was looking at something I was gonna say.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_05: I was just in repped by it.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_04: Picking up coffee beans and go on.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_04: 1 Corinthians 16, 14, let all that you do be done with love.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_04: And this morning I was meditating, you know, in Colossians, it says, but above all these things, put on love, which is a bond of perfection.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_04: And I think we we are prone to, not intentionally, but kind of by default, remove the element of love when we talk about sins like showmanship and and other things of that sort.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_04: We forget that if you really boil it down, everything comes back to love, right?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, Jesus made it clear on this, hang all the law and the prophets.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, right?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_04: This is the great, these are the you know, it's a compound commandment.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_04: On these two commandments, hang all the law and the prophets.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_04: It's the most important thing we can do.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_04: Everything traces back to love.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_04: So, what does that do?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_04: It gives us the map that takes us back to what?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_04: First Corinthians 13, which tells us what love is.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_04: And one of the primary descriptors of love is it does not seek its own.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_04: That's at the heart of showmanship.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_04: It's seeking your own, it's seeking what?
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_04: Your own praise, your own attention, your own exaltation.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_04: So the key is love.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_04: What?
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_04: Love for God and love for people.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_04: Because if I love God, I'm seeking to bring Him glory and honor.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_04: If I love people, I'm not seeking to use them to serve me with their praise.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_04: I'm seeking to serve them by giving them what they need.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_04: And right, that's why a lot of preachers don't preach truth because I won't get the praise.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, I'll get rejection, I'll get people being mad at me, you know.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_04: And so I really think we need to inject love into all of this.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: Who was the preacher that stepped down from the pulpit and the congregant went up to him and said, What a great message that was.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: Man, you did such a tremendous job.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Satan beat you to it.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: He already told him he's not.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's powerful.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, man.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_08: Uh Matt Chandler has this story about when he was a very young preacher.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_08: He got up there and he preached this sermon, and everyone's laughing, and he tells stories and they love it.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_08: And he gets down and uh, like an elder mentor of him goes, uh, man, that was a really good job of entertaining them right to hell.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_08: And he and he was like, it was like a moment for him to go, you're right.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_08: Well, that's exactly what I'm doing.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_08: And it like revolutionizes.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_05: Well, that's a humble heart to receive something as painful as that.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_04: Especially after receiving praise.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, Oscar, this is a side note, but something like that is so palatable from someone who rarely says something that intense to you.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_04: You know, someone who's gracious and and kind-hearted and may exhort you but does it with tact.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_04: But like if they say that, like you pay attention because it stands out, you know.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_04: And and I praise God for men in our lives that can point those things out to us, you know, that can tell us, hey man, are you just wanting to think about that or consider this or that?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_04: We don't like it in the moment, but man, the the blessing of exhortation and rebuke and correction.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, scriptures replete, especially through the proverbs, of the wisdom in those who receive that.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_04: You know, and he who he rebukes a man will afterward find more favor than he who flatters with the tongue.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah you know.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: So what's sort of easy, what sort of a litmus test does a preacher listening to the program say, I might be falling into that arena, that area of entertaining, uh of being a performer.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: And or I I fear that I I don't want to get into that route, right?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, what what do I do to try to figure out if I am entertaining more than just proclaiming the word, where do I go?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I think you know, Ray really hit at the root of it when he talked about what are we praying before we preach?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that opens it up to a lot more things that you can explore in your life before you get to the pulpit that will be an indicator of what you're after.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_04: You know, because if, for example, you're plagiarizing, if for example, you're where did you get that from?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_04: I guess everything we say is plagiarizing.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_04: You know, are you are you spending more time fine-tuning your illustrations as an example than you are seeking to exposit the word of God to give people the sense?
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_04: Uh are you frivolous with your spiritual disciplines?
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_04: In other words, are you a man of prayer?
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_04: Are you a man of of studying the word devotionally too and seeking to be a doer of it as you're studying it?
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I think all of those things play into it.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_04: And and then what's your aim when you preach?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_04: What's your aim?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_04: Like, are you going up to that pulpit in fear and trembling, recognizing that you're gonna give a stricter judgment?
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you're gonna receive a stricter judgment from the Lord and give a higher account for that.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_04: I think when you're sobered by that, like God is here, and I'm really gonna stand before the judgment seat of Christ, 2 Corinthians 5, that sobers you up.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it helps to be an element that counteracts that desire to be a showman.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_08: Let me give you another example, it's really good.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_08: Another example in the way it happens subtly, and then I'll transition it to more application in general life.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_08: Um, another example from a preacher, and I borrowed this from Jared Wilson, who wrote a book on preaching.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_08: He used to he used to consult preachers.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_08: He worked for an organization that would consult preachers.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_08: And he points out that if the overuse of self as a positive example is a dangerous thing.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_08: That's good.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_08: So he says, uh, here's a good rule of thumb when using yourself as an example, be self-deprecating.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_08: Make it a confessional, not exaltational.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_08: Use your personal illustrations to show us not how great you are, but what where you've gone wrong, how you've messed up, where you're deficient.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_08: It doesn't have to be a serious example, it can be a funny one, but self-referential illustrations that talk the preacher up often violate 2 Corinthians 4 5, which says, for what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord with ourselves as your servant for Jesus' sake, Jesus' sake.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_08: He then says, like, apply this when you talk about your family as well.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_08: Like you never want to talk negatively about your wife and kids on stage.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_08: But if you're always talking positively about family, it's self-congratulatory illustrations.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_08: And it's ultimately using yourself as a moral exemplar and exalting self rather than using yourself as an example in need of the gospel.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_08: Um here's a here's like a a pra I love what you said earlier, kind of the disposition of the heart easy.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_08: And one of the practices that I try to do is I have this like visual um exercise as I preach, or I'm as I prep I prepare for my preaching, I do this.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_08: Uh Sunday morning I do this, and I imagine almost like the the priests in the Old Testament, in which they offer a sacrifice on the altar of God on behalf of the people.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_08: And so my my visual exercise for me is this uh sermon is a sacrifice to you, Lord, and may the smell of the smoke bring sweetness and joy to your nose.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_08: And if I can do that, then let the people see.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_08: So then the preparation, the preaching, all of that is between me and God.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_08: It is it is an act of worship to Him and they get to witness it.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_08: And I think that that's an application going to the heart, which you said, Easy.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_08: I think that's an application that we can do in everyday life.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_08: If you're not a preacher and you're getting ready to go down and um, you know, disciple a young man or a woman in your life, you can go in there thinking, man, I hope they think I'm great, that I'm interesting, that I'm um relational, that that I can resonate with what they're going through.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_08: No.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_08: Look at that moment first and foremost as a sacrifice to the Lord.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_08: And if you do that well, it'll draw others in.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_08: Oh, it's so good.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: So can we take it perhaps for a second from the angle of the congregant, right?
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: Going up to their pastor and saying, Great message, right?
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: Not desiring to pride up, not, I mean, we we've all experienced it.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: We step down from the pulpit and somebody inevitably is going to say, Great message, right?
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're even though it's the worst message you've ever done in your life.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, what advice do we have for the congregation to um encourage the pastor?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: Where's the balance?
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: I want to encourage him, but I don't want to lift him up in an area that belongs to Christ.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: How do we balance that?
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's so good, Mark.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_04: It's so good because You could say that was pretty good for you.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_04: Pretty good.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_04: But wait, before I answer that, I just have to note an observation.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_04: I felt terrible because I'm holding back a laughter as Oscar was waxing eloquently.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_04: Ray, why did you take your cup and shake it?
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_04: To see if there's any more cup.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_04: Listen, this is bad, you guys.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_04: I know.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_04: He already knows there's nothing in there to determine there was nothing in there.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_04: And he looked at me with guilt.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_04: He's gonna be having a tiny drip before.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_05: It was easy.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_05: You see him in that text the other day saying you've created a monster because you caused this.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_04: I know it was on the podcast there, and I brought those two cups.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_04: Oh man.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um, look, let me just say, as a preacher, man, I am so blessed by encouragement.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_04: We're all different.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_04: I would think the majority of preachers appreciate encouragement.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_04: Some maybe don't like it.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know, maybe they're a rare breed, but it it just helps me to know like, okay, someone was touched, someone was impacted.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_04: So I think it's it's how you do it.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_04: You know, there's there is a fine line between, Pastor, that really, really impacted me.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_04: Let me tell you how.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you so much for your faithfulness to the word, versus, oh man, that was amazing, you know, and just like going overboard adulation.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_04: And so I just think that uh it is good to encourage.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_04: We're taught told in scripture to be encouraging to each other, you know, but just to be careful that it doesn't turn into the praise of man.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, pride is always there.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_05: It's just waiting.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_05: It's like an SUV on the freeway, comes up behind you, tailgate you, and wants to overtake you and drive you off the road.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_05: And what we should be more like is a V Beetle.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, like the humble one you drive.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_04: Like the humble one I drive.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, and and look, look, you you mentioned Ray earlier the whole standing up thing.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_04: We're herd, we're like herds, right?
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_04: We have that herd mentality.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_04: You just we do what people do.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_04: It's crazy.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_04: Last night I'm up, I think it was like two 2 a.m.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_04: or something, interceding for you guys.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_04: And um, but this video comes up in my feed, and it was Saddam Hussein purging his government.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_04: Remember when he took over?
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_04: And then he had this whole thing that he filmed, had cameras everywhere, and basically they were calling out people that were traitors and they were sending them off.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_04: And then after they went through all that, people started to stand up and praise Saddam Hussein.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_04: And like, you would be nothing without you.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_04: Man crying, you know, and and you could just see the peer pressure to give praise, you know.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_04: And so it's easy to fall into that, but we have to be careful.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_04: Don't go to the extreme of not saying anything.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_04: I don't want to be prideful.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_04: Because seriously, that that happens and your pastor can think, okay, I'm not impacting anyone, but but don't praise man.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, remember diatrophies.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_05: Tell us.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_05: He um first uh three John or third John one, first nine.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_05: We'll love to have the preeminence among them.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, he loves to have the preeminence, and that that's a challenging scripture because when you walk into a room, do you want the preeminence or are you just gonna walk in humbly?
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_05: Because what we're talking about is humility and pride.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_05: Never forget the time I stepped into a pulpit and looked over it.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_05: I'm kidding.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and it just said across the top of the pulpit, uh, sir, we would see Jesus.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_05: Wow.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_05: And I think every pulpit needs to have that, we need to have that written on our foreheads when we preach, preach the gospel or expound scripture, sir, we would see Jesus.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_08: To go back to Mark, your point.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_05: Do I hear an amen from our state?
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_05: I'm trying not to give praise.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_08: Uh yeah, to go back to your point, I think, I think how do we what are we what are we thanking them or what did we give him credit for?
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_08: How are we praising a pastor in in that moment?
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_08: Um, I remember one time someone came up to me and because I use humor, because again, it not only is it diffusing, it actually puts people in a state of agreeability.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_08: And so humor humor is dad's dad.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_05: Could you tell us when you do you have a type or something?
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I'll find something.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_08: It's usually me falling.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_08: Uh but humor is a powerful tool.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_08: But I remember one time someone walked up to me afterwards and and they go, Man, you are so funny.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, I love it when you preach.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_08: And that was not that was that didn't get make me feel good.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_08: Because that's not the point of me preaching.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_08: Um, a healthy exercise, I think, is think to yourself before you go talk to your pastor, how did this sermon remind me of the gospel?
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_08: How did it remind me of Christ?
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_08: Because then if you because I when somebody walks up to you and goes, Man, I never realized how Jesus and then whatever they say after that, man, that is a great conversation.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_08: Because now it's not about my preaching, it's about the gospel.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, that's good.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and you know I I often recite to myself the verses that say, Don't be wise in your own eyes.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_04: Don't think more highly of yourself than you ought.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_04: If anyone thinks himself to be something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, these are all different scriptures, but it's true.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_04: Like we are nothing.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_04: Apart from him, we can do nothing.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_04: Paul says, What do you have that you did not receive?
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_04: And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you didn't?
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_04: We have this treasure in earthen vessels, and any wisdom we might have has come from the Lord.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_04: And if we remember that, like that's genuine humility to me.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's not it's not denying per se that you have a gift, it's not denying that God uses you and maybe you're effective, it's recognizing he is your source.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and without him, you'd have nothing and can do nothing.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_04: And if God takes his hand off you, you're done, man.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_04: If he doesn't hold your atoms together, you are done.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_04: And so I think we need to regularly remind ourselves of that.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_04: That's good.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_05: And also we need to continually search yourselves some motives because each of us itinerate and we get honorariums when we preach.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_05: And that's always a challenge for me because when I first started itinerating, this was my source of income for my family.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_05: So the honorarium became important to me.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_05: I was remembering the time, and I mentioned it to you guys before, I think, where a pastor took me to the airport and my honorarium was in his front pocket and his jacket, and he forgot to give it to give it to me.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_05: And I was looking at him, I was leaving, I was like, that's how I'm gonna take care of my family.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_05: I was should have I can't remember what I did, but I should have said, nice jacket.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_05: I like the pocket.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_05: That pocket there.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_08: Do you have a handkerchief?
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, so that always comes into it when you when it's the source for your family.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_05: You have to be careful of your motive.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, that's that's so true.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_04: And and you know, people have been kind over the years to bless us in those ways, but that's never our our motive.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_04: But you're like you're talking about Ray, when you're in a place where that is your main support, and there are a lot of preachers like that.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_04: There there is that that that tendency.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, I I remember speaking to a pastor who said that someone wanted to give him a vehicle.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_04: And I'll take it.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_04: The the his prerequisite was uh as long as you understand that that's not gonna affect how I speak in your life and what I preach and what you know, and I think that's just so important.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_04: Like, where are we in that regard?
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_04: If it's someone who, let's say, supports our ministry in a big way, and yet there's something in their life that needs to be called out, would we hesitate to do it?
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_04: God forbid.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, yeah.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_04: That that shows that again, we're doing things for the sake of man.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um and and that's why scriptures speak so much to impartiality, the importance of not being partial and and being a person who lives before the Lord.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_05: You open this this whole thing today with the whole thought that the world lives for the praise of man.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_05: You can see it with Hollywood uh and and people who who become successful at something and make millions of dollars and can't stop.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, they they they could live on an island, but they still want to keep playing that guitar even though they're 83 because they love the praises of men, they live for it.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_05: And I remember when I was surfing, I may have mentioned this before, one of my friends said to me, if there was nobody watching, I wouldn't go out.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, I remember you mentioned it.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and I thought it made me feel sick.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_05: I thought, is that why we do this?
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_05: And so when we translate into the kingdom of and a kingdom of light from a kingdom of darkness, we've got to forsake that and and check our motives always.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_05: We're not doing it for the praise of men, but for the praise of God.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_04: It's funny, I I heard of this surfer who, when he'd be out surfing, like sitting on the beach or something, he'd put his his arm on his biceps.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_04: Do you know anyone who ever did that?
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_05: I don't need to do that.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_04: That was Ray's tactic back in the day.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_05: It was the knee.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_05: It was the knee.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_05: The knee.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_08: He just lifted the knee up and up.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_08: You just reminded me uh when I first started working here, we had a donor who was someone who gives gave to the ministry.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_08: And he, I mean, we're talking like a significant partner, uh, you know, top 10, top 20, probably.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_08: And they sent an email that was really concerning, I think both theologically and in another way.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_08: And I remember as as like freshly working here, um, not really knowing, you know, I guess it was like the first time where I was like, oh, interesting.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_08: I wonder how easy would would Ray, someone else would handle this, because it was a very concerning situation.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_08: And uh, man, praise the Lord.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_08: I remember you taking the conversation over and pursuing them in love, seeking their repentance, not being afraid to lose them as a partner.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_08: And we did lose them as a partner, and it just spoke so highly of to me immediately, like this is within the first year of working here, of the character of our ministry to not be willing to do something like that.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_08: Do you remember that?
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_08: Um trying to remember.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_05: I'm so humbled.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_05: I was gonna say that.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_05: This is true.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_04: Humility manifested.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_04: I'll have you remind me later, Oscar.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_04: But no, you know, I again that goes back to recognizing that we stand before the Lord.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_04: And let me just say, there's definite temptation to compromise in those areas.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just saying, like, I look, I'm a flawed fallen man.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_04: There is a temptation on many fronts to please man or to not offend or to, but at the end of the day, I'm left with my conscience and the Lord.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like, can I really do that?
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_04: Like, could I really compromise this and not not honor the Lord or or not love this person with with truth?
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_04: Like you you feel like uh, in a sense, a sellout, you know, and and it's like, what are you well, where's your character?
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_04: Like, who are you as a person?
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_04: I really think those those are the junctures in life where who we really are kind of comes to the surface, even though we're struggling, but at the end of the day, what are we gonna do?
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_04: You know?
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_04: So, yeah, Mark, were you about to say something?
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean that's just I don't know if it's the same instance of what Oscar was referring to, but I remember a significant donor had given us a significant amount of money, and then they wanted, you know, a place, you know, at the board or wherever it was.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember Easy saying, we are sending all the money back that they have ever given to the ministry, right?
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because what we don't we don't need man to do God's work, right?
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we man is able to come alongside because God has put it inside of man to help out the work that God has, but God's not pacing back and forth, wondering and worried how he's gonna get his work accomplished.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: He does it through men, right?
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_01: So this is why it's it's so great that I believe that if if you're a pastor of a church, that you have no idea who gives.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 53:41
  unknown: Right.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that the deacons take care of that sort of stuff, or whoever's designated for that, so that the pastors are freed up to serve everybody equally, right?
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: There's no prominence, no preeminence given to an individual.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, here, you sit up here.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you you do this, you do that.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: A couple scriptures uh allow me to share.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_01: Matthew 6, 1, it says, Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then Matthew 25, verses 5 through 7.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: They do all their deeds to be seen.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: They love to have their place of honor at peace and to be called rabbi.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then 1 Thessalonians 2, 4, but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, we speak not to please man but God.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: Final verse, Matthew 23.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh talks about whitewashed tombs.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_01: Outwardly, they appear righteous, but they're filled with hypocrisy.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: And to Oscar and Easy's point earlier, right?
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: That the litmus test that we throw around to see where we stand amongst people is just motive.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: What is your motive by what you're doing and what you're doing and why you're doing what you're doing?
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_01: If you're throwing a YouTube channel up there in order to be seen by man, it seems like uh your motive is not right, or I can't witness to that person because I don't have my camera going.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: There's no audio device, you know, ready to go.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: What happened to just sharing the gospel, being ready in season, out of season?
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: I I went on a uh eight-mile hike yesterday in Catalina with 35 pounds on my back, and it was not the easiest thing to be able to do.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I did it, I did it by myself away from all the rest of the guys.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: I left two hours early.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't go by yourself?
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_01: I went by myself.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_05: That is crazy.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_05: Don't you even watch those things on television where a guy goes by himself, breaks a leg, and lies there and dies over two week period.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_05: Wait, Mark, you you did the eight-mile hike by yourself?
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: I I did it by myself, but the guys were a couple hours behind me.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: So they could find your bobby.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_01: So they can No, it's it's a it's a mu it's a traveled trail that ha that a lot of people go across.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_05: And they fall down a little ravine and all the finds, and you've heard all those before.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_05: Crazy man, you man, we we love you, Mark.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_05: Take care of yourself.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Mark.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I was listening to the last uh three sermons that Johnny Artavanus gave, and so I I spoke at his church four weeks ago, the three messages since he was he he had taught, and I listened to that on that trail.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I found myself just absolutely beside myself.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: Pause, it was two and a half hours, pausing, praying, weeping, going off to the side, taking off my pack, you know, taking some energy drink, and and and I just absolutely I was so beside myself.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: I go, I have to reach out to him and just tell him how much God just met me as I was going.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I was able to not concentrate so much on my journey here on earth, you know, on that path, but my journey here on earth that has been ordained by God and just able to take inventory where I am at with the Lord.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: And uh he he's a pastor at Stonebridge uh Bible Church there in Franklin, Tennessee.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I just gotta say, yeah, we've had him on the podcast.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: If you're looking to add a podcast to your uh every day or once a week right after listening to Living Waters.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: After listening to the Living Waters comedy hour.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_05: Um that'd be a great name for it.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_05: The Living Waters Comedy, yeah.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: I just highly recommend it.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he's seasoned uh the way he's able to uh handle the word of God.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's so good.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think of 1 Thessalonians 2, 4, but as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_04: You know, that applies to the the preacher, and this is this has been amazing because I seriously was not even intending to go in that direction.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_04: Showmanship.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_04: I need to explain maybe if I come up with an idea.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_04: Hey guys, this is what I'm meaning.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_04: Well, what are you thinking?
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_04: No, about like practicing your righteousness before men, like in general, is believing our own.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_04: But but this is fine.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_04: We went there too, but I mean this is great.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_04: But um, but no, like man, we need to recognize that that we need to speak to please God.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_04: Bondservants, right?
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_04: Not for the eye service of of men, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, right?
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_04: And so it applies in so many areas of life, and we need to remember that.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_04: Spurgeon said, do not desire to be known for the wrong reasons.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_04: Seek not to be a great preacher, but to preach a great savior.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_08: That man, that I'm so glad you're pointing us back to the gospel because I was just thinking, like, why what is it about God that we can lay down this incessant need to have the approval of other people?
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_08: The the the need for people to like us, to agree with us, to accept us.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_08: And the thing about the gospel that frees us from the enslaving, reigning power of seeking the approval of men is that through the cross, you've been approved by God.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_08: He has seen you at your worst, he has seen you as a sinner, he has seen you as a sufferer, and he has declared you a saint through the work of Christ.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_08: You are accepted by God, not because of how incredible you are, but because of how incredible Jesus was and how he has loved you.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_08: And when you really grab a hold of that, when you really allow that truth to penetrate your heart as a Christian, you can finally expel the idol of the approval of men because you have been approved by God.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, amen, Oscar.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_04: And go ahead, Ray.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_05: If you want people to praise you, die.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_05: More lies at funerals than any other place.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's so true.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, look, I think at the end of the day, it it always comes back to a life of devotion, right?
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_04: We talk about our devotional life in terms of we have our devotions where we sit quietly with the Lord and we pray and read the word and whatever.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_04: But but I think as I've mentioned before, that should be the catalyst that sets the tone for the rest of our life.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_04: Day.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_04: Because if you are in communion with the Lord throughout your day, you're praying without ceasing, in a sense, having a posture of prayer, you're meditating on the word, you're seeking to live with an eternal mindset, you're less likely to drift into those areas because you just got done communing with the Lord.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_04: You're constantly in and out of prayer, you're constantly thinking on the word, you're constantly seeking to impact eternity.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_04: That is going to help.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_04: And again, we're always giving prescriptions, but that at the end of the day, friends, those of you that are listening, the question is where is your personal walk with the Lord?
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_04: And it always goes back to that.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, if I'm dealing with someone who's living in sexual sin, if I'm dealing with someone who is being unloving toward their wife or who's being selfish, I don't have to ask them, are you really genuinely seeking the Lord?
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_04: I don't have to ask that.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_04: It's a given.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_04: I can look at them and say, man, you need to start seeking the Lord.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_04: Because not that we can't sin or stumble, but if you're living in a pattern like that, there's a problem with your relationship with the Lord.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_04: And I believe this connects with living for the eye service of man.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_04: This connects back to seeking to get the applause of man and um and not to live genuinely for the Lord.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_04: So all right, friends.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_04: What happened to my voice, Oscar?
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, it's a sign that you need to stop talking.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_04: It was all that singing.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_04: All right, friends.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_04: What's singing?
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_04: What's singing?
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_05: What?
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_04: Sounds more like dying.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_04: Don't forget, friends, the track sample pack, the living waters mug, the Evan Study Bible, all that good stuff.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, we love hearing from you.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, when we read these comments that we get, we're encouraged by them and want to encourage others.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_04: So don't forget podcast at livingwaters.com and keep listening.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_04: Again, shout out to our friends in those countries that I mentioned earlier.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_04: I can't even remember now.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_04: Belize in Hong Kong, number one and number 12.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for joining us, friends.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_04: We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters podcast.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_04: Ooh.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_04: Wait, was that a coffee voice, Ray?
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_04: It was a coffee, but sort of harmonizing podcast.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_04: Putting hair on your chest and deepening your voice.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_03: We'll see you next episode of the Living Waters Podcast, where we have no idea what we're doing.