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My Body Is The Crime Scene · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

0:00
Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
0:07
Speaker 2: Things started to hit me more of this really just happened, and.
0:13
Speaker 3: This is bad.
0:31
Speaker 4: Welcome to the Knife. I'm Hannah Smith.
0:33
Speaker 1: I'm patia Eton. This week we're speaking with a woman
0:36
Speaker 1: named Cassie. In two thousand and eight, Cassie attended a
0:38
Speaker 1: Halloween party at a fraternity at Oregon State University. The
0:42
Speaker 1: party started out just like you'd picture it, fun costumes,
0:45
Speaker 1: loud music.
0:45
Speaker 4: It was a packed house, but the night ended with
0:48
Speaker 4: Cassie walking into an emergency room with her bloodstained costume
0:53
Speaker 4: in a bag. After being seen by a doctor, she
0:55
Speaker 4: would meet with two detectives who wanted to know exactly
0:58
Speaker 4: what happened at that part.
1:00
Speaker 1: Let's get into the interview.
1:05
Speaker 2: So I'm from Portland, Oregon, and I grew up in
1:12
Speaker 2: just the suburbs, just kind of pretty typical childhood. I
1:17
Speaker 2: went to a private high school. I loved high school.
1:22
Speaker 2: I had a great time, but I was also very
1:25
Speaker 2: excited for college. I've never really been away from home
1:31
Speaker 2: or my parents, so I ended up going to Oregon
1:35
Speaker 2: State University.
1:36
Speaker 3: In Oregon.
1:37
Speaker 2: It's like growing up, you're either you're a dock or
1:39
Speaker 2: a beaver in Oregon State is the Beaver's in My
1:41
Speaker 2: family was always beavers, and so it kind of was
1:44
Speaker 2: always that's where I'm going to go. Yeah, I was
1:47
Speaker 2: excited for like that whole college experience.
1:52
Speaker 1: What were you looking forward to about, you know, going
1:55
Speaker 1: off to college and what did you expect it to be?
1:57
Speaker 2: Like I was looking forward to just I guess freedom
2:03
Speaker 2: is the best way to kind of that independence and
2:07
Speaker 2: freedom of making my own choices. And it felt like
2:11
Speaker 2: it was a way for me to kind of have
2:14
Speaker 2: like a new start. I don't know if it was
2:16
Speaker 2: just like a Catholic high school thing, but before we
2:20
Speaker 2: went off to college, I feel like we were, you know,
2:22
Speaker 2: kind of told that college could be scary and parties
2:26
Speaker 2: could be scary, and I remember feeling nervous about stuff
2:31
Speaker 2: like that. But when I made friends with these guys
2:34
Speaker 2: that joined fraternities, it felt like, well, these parties aren't scary,
2:38
Speaker 2: Like I just remember feeling it was a really like
2:41
Speaker 2: care free time.
2:43
Speaker 3: I never worried about anything. My girlfriends would come.
2:46
Speaker 2: And it was just kind of like we were all
2:47
Speaker 2: just like a big group of friends.
2:49
Speaker 3: I never felt scared.
2:53
Speaker 1: After spending her freshman year at Oregon State, Cassie was
2:56
Speaker 1: feeling homesick, so in the fall of two thousand and seven,
2:58
Speaker 1: she transferred to Portland's and it was the best of
3:01
Speaker 1: both worlds. During the week she could be closer to
3:04
Speaker 1: her family, but on the weekend she could hop on
3:06
Speaker 1: I five and see all of her friends at OSU.
3:09
Speaker 1: A few of those friends were involved in Greek life,
3:11
Speaker 1: and OSU's Greek road doesn't look much different than it
3:14
Speaker 1: does in the movies. Big houses, tree lined streets, buzzing
3:18
Speaker 1: with students who are excited to belong to a social
3:20
Speaker 1: network meant to last far beyond their college years. It
3:24
Speaker 1: was exciting and it was a good time in Cassie's life.
3:27
Speaker 1: But in the fall of two thousand and eight, everything changed.
3:31
Speaker 2: The fraternity that I spent a lot of time at
3:34
Speaker 2: was Delta Kai, and one of my really good friends
3:39
Speaker 2: at the time was a part of that fraternity, and
3:42
Speaker 2: they were going to be hosting a joint party with
3:45
Speaker 2: five Kapa PSI and I had never actually been to
3:49
Speaker 2: that fraternity, but I was at Delta Chai all the time,
3:53
Speaker 2: and it sounded really fun. There were only so many
3:58
Speaker 2: people that were going to be in vie and so
4:00
Speaker 2: it was exciting. So me and my girlfriend drove down
4:04
Speaker 2: from Portland, and I remember being so excited trying to
4:07
Speaker 2: find the perfect costume and I ended up choosing I
4:12
Speaker 2: was Tinkerbell that night, and I was excited to be
4:17
Speaker 2: at a new fraternity, meet new people, and there was
4:21
Speaker 2: four of us that were going to meet up and
4:23
Speaker 2: go to the party, and I was just really excited.
4:27
Speaker 2: And I just remember all that excited energy of listening
4:31
Speaker 2: to music and getting ready before the party and doing
4:34
Speaker 2: makeup and just being really happy.
4:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's such a specific experience to get dressed
4:41
Speaker 1: up for Halloween and college in a town where it's
4:44
Speaker 1: really cold at time of.
4:47
Speaker 2: Yes, totally, it was definitely like a time and a
4:50
Speaker 2: place where we were just, you know, my girlfriend and
4:53
Speaker 2: I had our little playlist that we had made to
4:55
Speaker 2: do our makeup and hair, and definitely it was cold
5:00
Speaker 2: a moment.
5:00
Speaker 1: Right, It's like you're an adult, but you're also dressed
5:02
Speaker 1: up lake tinker Bell and you're going out with your friends. Yes,
5:06
Speaker 1: tell us about arriving to the party. What did it
5:10
Speaker 1: look and feel like? What were your first impressions of
5:12
Speaker 1: the people and the vibe there.
5:14
Speaker 2: When we showed up it was, I think, bigger than
5:16
Speaker 2: I thought it was going to be. There were a
5:18
Speaker 2: lot of people lined up, like waiting to get inside.
5:22
Speaker 2: There's like a whole guest list situation, and I remember
5:26
Speaker 2: being cold waiting in line, and then when we finally
5:29
Speaker 2: got up there, we weren't on the guest list, so
5:33
Speaker 2: it was like, that's such a bummer and another typical
5:36
Speaker 2: college thing where you're not on the list, can't get
5:40
Speaker 2: into the party. And I remember kind of arguing with
5:42
Speaker 2: the guy at the door and trying to get a
5:44
Speaker 2: hold of my friend that was the fraternity member inside,
5:48
Speaker 2: and I just remember it being.
5:49
Speaker 3: Loud, but also just it felt like fun. I was
5:53
Speaker 3: still excited.
5:54
Speaker 2: Now, of course, looking back on it, I'm always like, well,
5:56
Speaker 2: what if we just turned away.
5:59
Speaker 1: It's been almost two decades since Halloween two thousand and eight,
6:02
Speaker 1: but sometimes this question still nags at Cassie. What if
6:06
Speaker 1: she had just turned away? How might her life be different?
6:11
Speaker 1: What version of herself would she be? That's because this
6:15
Speaker 1: night that started out so full of joy and anticipation
6:18
Speaker 1: unfolded in a way that would play out in the
6:21
Speaker 1: media and in a courtroom, altering the course of Cassie's life.
6:25
Speaker 1: But Cassie did get into the party and that night,
6:28
Speaker 1: she walked in like any other college student, excited to
6:31
Speaker 1: have fun on Halloween.
6:33
Speaker 2: But I got ahold of my friend and he came
6:38
Speaker 2: up to the front door and let us all in.
6:40
Speaker 2: I hadn't seen him in a while, and I remember
6:42
Speaker 2: like giving him a big hug and saying I was
6:44
Speaker 2: excited to be there.
6:45
Speaker 3: And it was just it was fun.
6:49
Speaker 2: Like we could hear the music, we could hear the
6:51
Speaker 2: party downstairs in the basement, and so we were all
6:55
Speaker 2: just excited to go down there and dance and hang out.
7:00
Speaker 2: So there's like the makeshift college bar. There's super loud music.
7:04
Speaker 2: That was two thousand and eight. Britney Spears had just
7:07
Speaker 2: kind of come back and they were playing Womanizer, which
7:09
Speaker 2: was one of me and my girlfriend's favorite songs, and
7:13
Speaker 2: I remember hearing that as we came downstairs, and.
7:15
Speaker 3: We were just so happy, and it was just busy and.
7:18
Speaker 2: Dark, but like the whole glow, you know, black light thing.
7:22
Speaker 2: It was just it was fun and there was a
7:24
Speaker 2: lot of people, which most of the fraternity parties I
7:28
Speaker 2: had been to hadn't been quite that big, but this
7:31
Speaker 2: was a joint party between two houses, so it kind
7:34
Speaker 2: of made sense. But we were just excited to dance.
7:37
Speaker 2: And I remember the four of us kind of, you know,
7:41
Speaker 2: got into the crowd and just kind of started dancing
7:44
Speaker 2: and having a good time, and I was I was excited.
7:47
Speaker 2: I remember just feeling really happy that I'd always loved
7:51
Speaker 2: Halloween and but like it was going to be a
7:55
Speaker 2: really good night.
7:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, those four people. Can you tell us who those
7:59
Speaker 1: four people are?
8:00
Speaker 3: Yeah?
8:01
Speaker 2: So I was with my best friend Nick, who was
8:06
Speaker 2: the one that was at Oregon State that we were
8:09
Speaker 2: staying at his house, and we had been best friends
8:12
Speaker 2: since high school. And then my other best friend, Carla,
8:17
Speaker 2: who I had known also since high school. We were
8:20
Speaker 2: on the same cheerleading team, and then we were with
8:23
Speaker 2: one of Nick's roommates. Like I said, Carla and I
8:25
Speaker 2: would go down there almost every weekend and stay at
8:28
Speaker 2: Nick's house with him and his roommate, and so we're
8:31
Speaker 2: all very close. I was also fairly newly single, so
8:36
Speaker 2: it was kind of like, oh, I'm excited to see,
8:39
Speaker 2: you know, maybe I can meet someone. I think we
8:41
Speaker 2: had maybe been kind of dancing hanging out for maybe
8:44
Speaker 2: an hour. It was like we were dancing and I
8:46
Speaker 2: kind of like turned around and actually physically I ran.
8:49
Speaker 3: Into who are now know? It was Greg.
8:52
Speaker 2: And he was dressed as a Heineken bottle and were
9:00
Speaker 2: kind of laughing about that, and then we kind of
9:03
Speaker 2: ended up like talking, or as much as you can
9:06
Speaker 2: talk on the crowded dance floor, and so then we
9:08
Speaker 2: started dancing and everything was fine.
9:11
Speaker 3: I was having a good time.
9:12
Speaker 2: We ended up we were kissing on the dance floor,
9:16
Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden I noticed I had
9:19
Speaker 2: lost track of Nick and Carla, but I didn't think
9:23
Speaker 2: too much of it at the time.
9:25
Speaker 3: And then after more time went.
9:26
Speaker 2: On, maybe you know, half an hour, forty five minutes,
9:29
Speaker 2: and I still couldn't find them, and I was like thinking, Okay,
9:33
Speaker 2: we should find them and maybe we can figure out.
9:34
Speaker 2: We hadn't gotten anything to drink at that time, so
9:37
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, maybe they went to go get.
9:38
Speaker 3: A drink, and I want to go do that with them.
9:49
Speaker 1: Cassie had just turned twenty one, and earlier that night,
9:53
Speaker 1: while she and her friend were getting ready for this party,
9:55
Speaker 1: she had a total of two drinks, but since arriving
9:58
Speaker 1: to the party, she'd had none. It's not worth mentioning
10:02
Speaker 1: or it wouldn't be except that every move Cassie made
10:06
Speaker 1: that night would later be scrutinized over and over and
10:10
Speaker 1: over again.
10:11
Speaker 2: So I told Greg, I was like, I want to
10:14
Speaker 2: go find my friends. You know, we can get something
10:17
Speaker 2: to drink. And I remember he said, yeah, I'll go
10:21
Speaker 2: with you. Let's go find your friends. And so we
10:23
Speaker 2: go upstairs and to the main level, like where the
10:28
Speaker 2: front door was, where there was everybody getting into the party.
10:32
Speaker 2: We didn't see them up there, and so we went
10:34
Speaker 2: up to the next level where the private rooms were
10:38
Speaker 2: for the fraternity members, and somehow we ended up we
10:42
Speaker 2: were in his room. I don't remember if it was like, oh, hey,
10:45
Speaker 2: we can just grab like a drink in here or whatever.
10:49
Speaker 2: I don't know if you've been in like a fraternity room,
10:52
Speaker 2: but they don't actually or at least at Oregon State,
10:55
Speaker 2: the members didn't actually sleep in their rooms. They had
10:57
Speaker 2: like a sleeping porch area where they're a bunch of
11:00
Speaker 2: like bunk beds and stuff.
11:01
Speaker 3: So the rooms were pretty small, and that a lot.
11:04
Speaker 2: Of them had just like futons or chairs or whatever
11:09
Speaker 2: in them. I was like, you know, I thought he
11:11
Speaker 2: was cute. He was really tall. I was like, tall guys,
11:15
Speaker 2: and so I was kind of excited. I was like, Okay,
11:17
Speaker 2: I'm newly single. This guy seems nice and we're sitting
11:21
Speaker 2: on the futon and we were kind of started kissing
11:23
Speaker 2: and making out.
11:24
Speaker 3: Is all consensual, everything's.
11:26
Speaker 2: Great at that time, and then all of a sudden
11:29
Speaker 2: he asked me if I want to have sex, and
11:32
Speaker 2: I kind of remember kind of laughing like, no, I
11:36
Speaker 2: just met you, dude, Like that's not really Like can't
11:39
Speaker 2: you know this is fine right now? And that's when
11:43
Speaker 2: it kind of shifted all of a sudden. Then he
11:49
Speaker 2: seemed to like shut down, and it was like the
11:55
Speaker 2: vibe was just different. And then I tried to get
11:59
Speaker 2: up to leave, and he grabbed my wrist and like
12:03
Speaker 2: pulled me back down onto the futon. And I remember
12:07
Speaker 2: his room was right off of the basketball court, so
12:11
Speaker 2: I could hear people laughing and playing basketball outside, and
12:17
Speaker 2: I remember thinking, oh my gosh, like, why can't I
12:21
Speaker 2: say anything? Like I felt frozen, even though he was
12:26
Speaker 2: By that point, he was holding me down with his
12:29
Speaker 2: forearm and had just pushed my underwear aside and was
12:34
Speaker 2: raping me. And I just remember hearing that laughter and
12:38
Speaker 2: thinking the right out there I can hear them, like
12:41
Speaker 2: why can't I scream? Or and I can also hear
12:44
Speaker 2: people on the other side of the door in the hallway,
12:47
Speaker 2: and just it felt it sounds probably cliche, but it
12:54
Speaker 2: totally felt like an out of body experience where I
12:57
Speaker 2: was watching this happen to me, and.
13:02
Speaker 3: I remember just a lot of pain.
13:07
Speaker 2: It was really painful, and just I felt sad.
13:14
Speaker 3: I just remember crying and.
13:18
Speaker 2: Just wondering when it would be over, like when he
13:23
Speaker 2: would stop, and why why he.
13:25
Speaker 3: Was doing this because it seemed like.
13:31
Speaker 2: He seemed like a good guy when I met him,
13:33
Speaker 2: as much as you can judge someone for a couple hours,
13:37
Speaker 2: but I didn't get that kind of scary, creepy vibe
13:40
Speaker 2: from him at all, and so I just.
13:45
Speaker 3: It shut down.
13:46
Speaker 1: It felt like it's terrible to think about finding yourself
13:50
Speaker 1: in that situation, and you know, even though you had
13:54
Speaker 1: met him only a couple of hours before, that is
13:57
Speaker 1: pretty normal. You go to a party and you meet
13:59
Speaker 1: people and you're all hanging out, and there were moments
14:04
Speaker 1: that were consensual. It makes sense to me that you,
14:07
Speaker 1: at some point in the night had felt comfortable and
14:09
Speaker 1: then that that shifted, and so you're in you know
14:13
Speaker 1: his room, how does it end? And how do you
14:15
Speaker 1: get yourself away from him?
14:19
Speaker 2: He was finished, and I remember just kind of sitting
14:23
Speaker 2: up and just.
14:26
Speaker 3: Being in shock.
14:27
Speaker 2: And I remember I just started to leave and I
14:32
Speaker 2: went towards the door and it I don't know if
14:35
Speaker 2: it was part of the shock that I was in
14:39
Speaker 2: at the time, but I felt like I couldn't get
14:42
Speaker 2: the door open.
14:43
Speaker 3: It felt locked.
14:44
Speaker 2: So I later found out that there wasn't a lock
14:46
Speaker 2: on that door, but I think that just shows like
14:50
Speaker 2: how like I could not open the door. I just
14:53
Speaker 2: I felt like nothing, my hands weren't working, like I
14:56
Speaker 2: couldn't connect to open the door. And I remember someone
15:03
Speaker 2: opened the door from the outside of the room, and
15:08
Speaker 2: I remember just coming out into this group and just
15:13
Speaker 2: feeling such a.
15:16
Speaker 3: My brain felt hazy is the best description. I felt
15:22
Speaker 3: like a zombie.
15:23
Speaker 2: I was now on the third floor and I had
15:25
Speaker 2: to go downstairs. I remember I couldn't remember or figure
15:29
Speaker 2: out which way the stairs were, and I just remember
15:31
Speaker 2: kind of going in circles and I ended up running
15:37
Speaker 2: into my friend, the fraternity member that had invited me
15:41
Speaker 2: to the party, and I remember telling him I need
15:45
Speaker 2: to find Nick and Carla and then he was actually
15:48
Speaker 2: the first one that told me. He said, why is
15:51
Speaker 2: there blood all over your costume? I hadn't even noticed,
15:55
Speaker 2: and I looked down and there was just blood all
15:58
Speaker 2: over the skirt part of the Tinkerbell costume.
16:02
Speaker 3: And then I told him, I said, I think I
16:04
Speaker 3: was raped.
16:05
Speaker 2: And so then he just like frantically like tried to
16:08
Speaker 2: find Nick and Carla, and we ended up finding them,
16:14
Speaker 2: and I remember Nick making a really big deal like
16:18
Speaker 2: we need to leave, she needs to get to the hospital,
16:21
Speaker 2: and I remember fraternity members trying to get us to.
16:24
Speaker 3: Not go to the hospital. Oh my god, Yeah.
16:29
Speaker 2: I remember parts of it. And then from speaking with Nick.
16:33
Speaker 2: Nick was not a very confrontational guy, and I remember
16:38
Speaker 2: him getting very angry and yelling that we need It
16:45
Speaker 2: was like they were almost physically trying to stop us
16:48
Speaker 2: from leaving and saying, you know what, we can who
16:52
Speaker 2: was it? We can, we can figure out. Let's go
16:55
Speaker 2: find him. We'll talk about this. And I don't really
17:03
Speaker 2: remember what I was thinking at that point. I kind
17:05
Speaker 2: of let Nick and Carla be in charge, like, Okay,
17:09
Speaker 2: I need to go to the hospital. I'm going to
17:10
Speaker 2: do whatever they say. And then I remember just we
17:14
Speaker 2: had walked to the party. I was sitting outside and
17:17
Speaker 2: Nick and Carla were frantically trying to call friends with cars,
17:20
Speaker 2: and so we finally found a friend that was already
17:24
Speaker 2: like a designated DD for her group of friends that
17:28
Speaker 2: she was going out with.
17:30
Speaker 3: We went home.
17:30
Speaker 2: They let me change. They put my costume and everything
17:34
Speaker 2: into a bag to bring to the hospital. They wouldn't
17:37
Speaker 2: let me shower.
17:39
Speaker 1: With her friends Nick and Carla by her side and
17:42
Speaker 1: her blood stained tinker Bell costume in a bag, Cassie
17:45
Speaker 1: walked into the emergency room. She waited for the doctor
17:49
Speaker 1: for two hours before they could see her. It was excruciating.
17:54
Speaker 1: All she wanted to do was go home. She wanted
17:56
Speaker 1: to shower, and maybe, if not for the support of
17:59
Speaker 1: Nick and Carla, she would have. But what Cassie didn't
18:03
Speaker 1: know is that this was only the beginning of what
18:06
Speaker 1: would be a long and painful legal process.
18:09
Speaker 2: The doctor was asking what had happened, and I had said,
18:14
Speaker 2: you know, I was raped.
18:16
Speaker 3: I remember she asked me, you know, was.
18:19
Speaker 2: It or you know, vaginal and I just I couldn't
18:25
Speaker 2: even you know, I remember saying I don't know.
18:29
Speaker 3: I just said I don't know. Just so many things which.
18:32
Speaker 2: Would later come back at trial, but now looking back
18:36
Speaker 2: on it, I was instill just so much shock. I
18:40
Speaker 2: couldn't even I think my brain was not even processing
18:45
Speaker 2: what had happened. I knew I was raped, I knew
18:49
Speaker 2: something was wrong, but I those detailed questions I couldn't.
18:54
Speaker 2: I couldn't even explain what was happening or what happened
19:00
Speaker 2: to me. And then she asked if I wanted to
19:04
Speaker 2: talk to the police, and I, you know, I didn't
19:06
Speaker 2: even think about it. I just I said yes, because
19:12
Speaker 2: I knew something bad had happened to me and I
19:14
Speaker 2: wanted to talk to them, and so she went to
19:17
Speaker 2: start that process. And so then she said, I'm guessing
19:21
Speaker 2: that would you also like a rape kit done? And
19:25
Speaker 2: I said yes, and I remember being very scared. I
19:34
Speaker 2: hadn't even had like my first pep smear yet, and
19:37
Speaker 2: so I remember Carla stayed with me and was just
19:40
Speaker 2: holding my hand, and I just remember crying. And it
19:43
Speaker 2: was so painful because obviously a rape exam is it's
19:51
Speaker 2: a crazy feeling because you're they're collecting evidence, but essentially
19:56
Speaker 2: your body is the crime scene, so it's you know,
20:01
Speaker 2: all lots of lots of poking and prodding and scraping,
20:05
Speaker 2: and just.
20:07
Speaker 3: And after you had just I had just been raped.
20:10
Speaker 2: It felt so violating again, even though I knew I
20:15
Speaker 2: wanted to do it to get the evidence, it was
20:19
Speaker 2: also very triggering.
20:22
Speaker 3: It felt like the exam took hours. It didn't. I mean,
20:26
Speaker 3: it's just a few minutes. And I also remember.
20:31
Speaker 2: They had my costume, but then they even had to
20:33
Speaker 2: take my underwear and so having to go into the
20:37
Speaker 2: bathroom and change and get, you know, some of their
20:40
Speaker 2: underwear that they had at the hospital. That's when I
20:42
Speaker 2: remember I kind of there's still so much bleeding happening,
20:46
Speaker 2: and that was I think the born war.
20:48
Speaker 3: I saw that. It was like.
20:50
Speaker 2: Things started to hit me more of this is this
20:57
Speaker 2: really just happened, and this is this is bad. Just
21:02
Speaker 2: remember feeling scared and then even worse at that point
21:06
Speaker 2: than the police separated all three of us, and so
21:11
Speaker 2: I remember waiting in a part of the hospital. It
21:15
Speaker 2: was just like an empty waiting room for some part
21:17
Speaker 2: of the hospital. It was dark, it was in a
21:20
Speaker 2: super uncomfortable chair. I had to wait there alone. I
21:23
Speaker 2: didn't know where Nick and Carla were waiting. I had
21:26
Speaker 2: to wait there for another hour or so, which I
21:29
Speaker 2: understand now, but they had to wait for a female
21:32
Speaker 2: officer to also be available to accompany the male officer
21:36
Speaker 2: to interview me, So that was what ended up taking
21:42
Speaker 2: a long time. But I just remember feeling scared and
21:47
Speaker 2: lonely and kind of angry at that point too, for
21:54
Speaker 2: why couldn't I wait with my friends.
21:56
Speaker 3: It just.
21:58
Speaker 2: Felt very overwhelming and isolating, and again like everything was
22:03
Speaker 2: taking so long, and I just wanted to go home
22:06
Speaker 2: as well, like two am and still just waiting for
22:10
Speaker 2: the police to show up to talk to me.
22:12
Speaker 4: Yeah, of course, Like I would be angry too, like
22:14
Speaker 4: you were victimized and had to go through this terrible thing,
22:18
Speaker 4: and now you're the one having to wait around and
22:21
Speaker 4: like have your body invaded. I also want to give
22:24
Speaker 4: props to you and your incredible friends for like insisting
22:28
Speaker 4: that you do this and taking care of you. You know,
22:30
Speaker 4: But it sounds like a really difficult experience.
22:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was very It was very difficult and.
22:41
Speaker 2: Not something that I ever thought a situation I never
22:47
Speaker 2: thought that I would be in.
22:50
Speaker 4: Yeah, of course.
22:52
Speaker 3: Yeah.
22:52
Speaker 1: I mean also at that point, you're very sleep deprived,
22:55
Speaker 1: You're very tired. That makes everything more difficult. So the
23:01
Speaker 1: female officer when she arrived, what happens at that point.
23:06
Speaker 2: So she arrives and her and the male officer interview
23:12
Speaker 2: me together. The female officer was there just to be there.
23:18
Speaker 2: The man was interviewing me, and immediately he.
23:24
Speaker 3: He made me feel comfortable.
23:26
Speaker 2: He just asked me what happened, and I started to
23:30
Speaker 2: tell him my story. I wasn't sure if I even
23:36
Speaker 2: remembered the guy's name. I think I said it was
23:39
Speaker 2: Craig or Greg. I got through the story and he said,
23:45
Speaker 2: I believe this happened to you.
23:47
Speaker 3: I just felt relief immediately.
23:51
Speaker 2: I don't think I was consciously thinking that I wouldn't
23:53
Speaker 2: be believed, but just having that reassurance of I had
23:57
Speaker 2: just said the most horrible thing that had happened to me,
24:00
Speaker 2: and for him to say I believe this happened to you,
24:03
Speaker 2: I felt.
24:03
Speaker 3: Like, maybe it will be okay.
24:08
Speaker 2: And then I remember just once Nick and Carla were
24:12
Speaker 2: done with their interviews, we drove back to Nick's house.
24:23
Speaker 1: The drive from the hospital back to Nick's house that
24:26
Speaker 1: night was mostly silent. At one point, Cassie tried to
24:29
Speaker 1: call her mother and tell her what happened, but she
24:31
Speaker 1: couldn't get the words out.
24:33
Speaker 4: She threw up.
24:34
Speaker 1: Nick took over the call. The detectives at the hospital
24:37
Speaker 1: had asked Cassie to stay in town for another twenty
24:40
Speaker 1: four hours because they'd have more questions for her. So
24:43
Speaker 1: they went back to Nick's house and tried to get
24:44
Speaker 1: some rest, and so I.
24:46
Speaker 2: Remember actually getting a little bit of sleep, and then
24:51
Speaker 2: I remember being woken up by a detective at Nick's house.
24:57
Speaker 1: So he was physically in the house waking you up.
25:00
Speaker 3: The detective, Yeah, he was knocking on the door.
25:02
Speaker 2: I guess they had said they had tried to call
25:04
Speaker 2: all of us, but we were all so tired none
25:07
Speaker 2: of us spoke up to the phone call, and so, yeah,
25:09
Speaker 2: so we woke up to it was Nick's roommate actually
25:12
Speaker 2: opened the door and was for the officer and said,
25:15
Speaker 2: you detectives are here to speak with you. And so
25:17
Speaker 2: I remember kind of still being in pajamas, and they
25:22
Speaker 2: had to drive me by the fraternity to physically point
25:26
Speaker 2: out which one it had happened at. So I remember
25:30
Speaker 2: being even scared to do that. I didn't even want
25:34
Speaker 2: to drive by in a police car that I knew
25:38
Speaker 2: I was totally safe. They showed me six photos of
25:44
Speaker 2: men and I had to pick out. Greg was in
25:48
Speaker 2: one of them, and I ended up picking him out
25:52
Speaker 2: of the lineup. But I remember feeling so nervous, like,
25:56
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, what if I messed this up? And
25:59
Speaker 2: then once I picked out, you know, I said, I
26:01
Speaker 2: think it's it's this guy.
26:03
Speaker 3: Then they said zero to one hundred? What percent?
26:06
Speaker 2: Are you sure that it's this guy? And then I
26:08
Speaker 2: remember that stressed me out even more. I'm like, do
26:11
Speaker 2: I say one hundred percent? But then what if it's wrong?
26:15
Speaker 2: Then I, you know, should have said a lower percent.
26:17
Speaker 2: I just remember already questioning myself how I was answering things.
26:23
Speaker 2: Pretty sure I landed on I just picked like seventy
26:26
Speaker 2: percent or something because I felt like I couldn't say
26:28
Speaker 2: one hundred percent.
26:30
Speaker 3: It ended up being him.
26:32
Speaker 1: That thirty percent that you decided to sort of buffer in,
26:36
Speaker 1: you know, you had spent a couple of hours with him.
26:38
Speaker 1: What was that?
26:40
Speaker 2: Honestly, I think it was I was scared to be
26:44
Speaker 2: wrong now looking back on it, and like, that was
26:47
Speaker 2: one hundred percent him, And I'm pretty sure I knew that,
26:51
Speaker 2: but I didn't want to say one hundred percent because
26:53
Speaker 2: what if I was wrong and messed it up. I
26:57
Speaker 2: felt it was such a traumatic experience for me. I
27:01
Speaker 2: felt like I could pick him out of you know,
27:04
Speaker 2: any group of people, like it was just burned into
27:07
Speaker 2: my memory. But yeah, that's kind of Thirty percent was
27:11
Speaker 2: just I don't want to be wrong. I don't want
27:12
Speaker 2: to mess it up, So I'm going to go with
27:15
Speaker 2: a number that's like more than fifty. But I don't
27:18
Speaker 2: want to go all into it because what if I
27:21
Speaker 2: am wrong?
27:23
Speaker 4: So it's already it's like a test anxiety, Yes, exactly,
27:26
Speaker 4: super high stakes test someone puts in front of you,
27:30
Speaker 4: and it's like if you fill in the wrong bubble,
27:32
Speaker 4: you might never whatever, you might never get justice or something.
27:36
Speaker 4: So it sounds like it was just like that anxiety
27:38
Speaker 4: of like this high pressure question like how sure are you?
27:42
Speaker 2: Totally because I thought I didn't even think there was
27:44
Speaker 2: going to be like how sure are you? I was
27:46
Speaker 2: just Okay, I'm going to pick this guy, and so
27:48
Speaker 2: then to kind of well how sure are you? Then
27:50
Speaker 2: I even started thinking like, okay, are you asking that?
27:53
Speaker 2: Because did I pick the wrong guy?
27:55
Speaker 1: Cassie did not pick the wrong guy. DNA found any
27:59
Speaker 1: underwear Soko was wearing that night was later tested, and
28:02
Speaker 1: those test results gave a one and ten billion chance
28:05
Speaker 1: that the DNA belonged to anyone but Cassie. That is
28:09
Speaker 1: considered a very strong positive DNA match. Cassie's medical examination
28:14
Speaker 1: also showed that she had vaginal tearing, which is where
28:17
Speaker 1: Cassie believes the blood came from. She was overwhelmed, but
28:21
Speaker 1: for now the police were done asking Cassie questions. She
28:24
Speaker 1: could finally go back home to Portland, and when she
28:26
Speaker 1: got there, she went straight to her parents' house, where
28:28
Speaker 1: she stayed for almost a month.
28:31
Speaker 2: I wanted to be with my parents, so I was
28:35
Speaker 2: in pajamas all day, like just wanting to feel that
28:38
Speaker 2: like comfort, blankets, like all the time. It felt like
28:42
Speaker 2: I was ye like reverting to like a child. And
28:46
Speaker 2: I remember also at that point being able to take
28:50
Speaker 2: a shower, and I just still remember I could could
28:54
Speaker 2: not get the water hot enough and after a very
28:59
Speaker 2: long shower that I wanted to take a bath. It
29:01
Speaker 2: was just such a feeling of I was just violated,
29:04
Speaker 2: and I remember not really sleeping much that first night,
29:08
Speaker 2: and then the next day I got a phone call
29:12
Speaker 2: that they had found that it was Gregory's soaco and
29:19
Speaker 2: he had been arrested and he was in jail in Corellis.
29:26
Speaker 2: And then a couple of days later I got the
29:28
Speaker 2: call that he had posted bail. His parents had come
29:32
Speaker 2: and posted bail. The district attorney called me, I was
29:37
Speaker 2: going to be going in for a grand jury hearing
29:41
Speaker 2: to see if this case, if it was even going
29:44
Speaker 2: to go to trial, there was enough evidence to take
29:47
Speaker 2: it to trial. Also, at this point, like I first
29:50
Speaker 2: kind of got inside of what it was going to
29:53
Speaker 2: be like to be a victim in this legal process.
29:56
Speaker 2: And there was believe it was eater ten people and
30:02
Speaker 2: they could ask me questions when I was done telling
30:05
Speaker 2: my story. And this was also the first time where
30:08
Speaker 2: one of the men asked me why didn't you scream?
30:13
Speaker 3: Why didn't you say anything?
30:15
Speaker 2: If there were people around, if you could hear people outside,
30:19
Speaker 2: why didn't you yell for help? And that was the
30:22
Speaker 2: first time I got kind of hit with that victim blaming.
30:26
Speaker 2: And I remember at that time I didn't really know
30:31
Speaker 2: how to answer that. I was just like I was
30:35
Speaker 2: in shock. I couldn't, you know. And then I also
30:40
Speaker 2: remember feeling like, Okay, maybe I did the wrong thing,
30:44
Speaker 2: I guess ORed, and so that was kind of my
30:47
Speaker 2: first experience with the victim blaming and where I started
30:49
Speaker 2: to maybe think, Okay, maybe this trial, this legal process
30:53
Speaker 2: is going to be different and harder than I thought.
30:59
Speaker 2: It felt like I was more on trial that I
31:03
Speaker 2: had to prove myself in some way.
31:07
Speaker 1: Right, because you know, it's like you are not personally
31:11
Speaker 1: bringing these charges. The state, right is bringing these charges.
31:14
Speaker 1: The state has determined they think that something happened here
31:17
Speaker 1: and that they can win this case.
31:19
Speaker 3: Yeah.
31:20
Speaker 1: So the grand jury does return an indictment.
31:24
Speaker 2: Yes, and at this point Greg is just he's out.
31:29
Speaker 2: He had gone back to California and the story it
31:36
Speaker 2: was on like the local news, and so that was
31:39
Speaker 2: also a weird feeling. I remember watching the TV and
31:44
Speaker 2: it came on and it was just like, you know,
31:46
Speaker 2: it was just like turn it off.
31:48
Speaker 3: You know, I can't I can't see his mug.
31:51
Speaker 1: Shot or because you were not identified, but he was.
31:55
Speaker 2: He was, Yes, I was just identified as a Portland
31:59
Speaker 2: State student.
32:01
Speaker 3: The stories would be online and people were able.
32:07
Speaker 2: To comment on the stories, and that that was also
32:12
Speaker 2: a big thing for me that I could not stop
32:15
Speaker 2: myself from looking up the news stories and then reading
32:20
Speaker 2: all the hundreds of comments that people were just posting.
32:25
Speaker 2: Almost all of them were bashing me, even though these
32:30
Speaker 2: people didn't know who I was. But it was always,
32:32
Speaker 2: you know, why she had a fraternity party? What did
32:35
Speaker 2: she think was going to happen there? I heard that
32:38
Speaker 2: she was wearing did you see her costume? Or just
32:41
Speaker 2: you know, all these horrible things, And I just remember
32:45
Speaker 2: I would just be sitting at my computer just crying
32:48
Speaker 2: and trying to explain to my mom and my sister
32:54
Speaker 2: and my friends like that I couldn't just stop looking
32:56
Speaker 2: it up. I don't know, it was a very strange feeling.
33:00
Speaker 2: It's like I couldn't look away from it.
33:03
Speaker 3: I had.
33:03
Speaker 2: I was checking daily, are there any new comments? And
33:08
Speaker 2: it made me mad, and it made me sad, and
33:11
Speaker 2: it just kind of just made me spiral.
33:14
Speaker 3: And then finally the.
33:17
Speaker 2: District Attorney's office just called me and said, okay, trials
33:20
Speaker 2: set for May.
33:22
Speaker 3: So this is in two thousand and nine.
33:24
Speaker 2: Now, they had told me that that was actually a
33:27
Speaker 2: pretty quick turnaround time from the assault happening in on
33:33
Speaker 2: Halloween in two thousand and eight, and then for trial
33:35
Speaker 2: to be in May two thousand and nine.
33:37
Speaker 1: Was Gregory offered a plea deal he was, did he
33:42
Speaker 1: accept the plea deal?
33:44
Speaker 3: He did not.
33:45
Speaker 2: His whole defense became he was too drunk, He was
33:49
Speaker 2: blackout drunk, so he can't be held accountable for what
33:54
Speaker 2: he did during that time.
33:56
Speaker 1: At the trial, Gregory Sacho's defense leaned heavily into the
33:59
Speaker 1: r that he simply didn't remember what happened that night
34:03
Speaker 1: because he'd had too much to drink, but that if
34:05
Speaker 1: something sexual did happen, then it must have been consensual.
34:09
Speaker 1: At the Halloween party, fraternity members had been tallying drinks
34:12
Speaker 1: on their arms. Gregory Sacho's arm showed twenty eight tally marks,
34:17
Speaker 1: one for every drink he consumed, but at the same time,
34:21
Speaker 1: Cassie's two drinks over the course of the entire evening
34:24
Speaker 1: were heavily scrutinized during the trial.
34:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember thinking that of like, you're going to
34:30
Speaker 2: give me this much of a hard time, and I
34:33
Speaker 2: had two drinks and he had what was marked as
34:38
Speaker 2: twenty eight, Like it's I just yeah, remember being and
34:42
Speaker 2: also just thinking, Okay, I'm a college student. You know,
34:47
Speaker 2: me and my friends have all been very drunk a
34:49
Speaker 2: handful of times. You don't rape people, that's not that's
34:54
Speaker 2: not something that you do right, even if you are
34:57
Speaker 2: very drunk.
34:58
Speaker 3: That's not a defense. That was ridiculous.
35:02
Speaker 2: And I also remember feeling even a little bit angry
35:05
Speaker 2: like he I think he had made a statement like
35:07
Speaker 2: I don't even remember meeting her.
35:10
Speaker 3: That made me feel angry.
35:11
Speaker 2: It's like you you raped me, and I cannot get
35:15
Speaker 2: you out of my head, but yet you don't remember
35:17
Speaker 2: meeting me.
35:19
Speaker 3: That really pissed me off.
35:22
Speaker 1: The trial took place seven months after the alleged drape.
35:25
Speaker 1: For Cassie, it was not only the terror that came
35:28
Speaker 1: with retelling her story in front of an audience, but
35:30
Speaker 1: this strange and performative aspect of presenting herself to a jury.
35:35
Speaker 1: Cover your tattoos, don't wear heels, wear makeup but not
35:38
Speaker 1: too much makeup, be authentic but not too emotional. And
35:42
Speaker 1: as if all of this wasn't difficult enough, Gregorysacho had
35:46
Speaker 1: a lot of supporters, people who simply couldn't imagine he
35:50
Speaker 1: would do this.
35:51
Speaker 2: Just seeing like the whole fraternity there, his family. I
35:57
Speaker 2: remember feeling very intimidated by especially his mom.
36:03
Speaker 3: Again like silly things.
36:04
Speaker 2: You remember, it's you know, there's one woman's bathroom in
36:06
Speaker 2: this courthouse. And I remember multiple times like washing my
36:10
Speaker 2: hands next to his mom and just feeling terrified, like
36:16
Speaker 2: she looked at me like I was ruining everything. That's
36:21
Speaker 2: what I remember a lot about trials, feeling intimidated and.
36:27
Speaker 3: Scared.
36:29
Speaker 2: There was a little part of me I knew that
36:30
Speaker 2: I wanted to keep doing this because I had also
36:35
Speaker 2: had once I kind of started talking to more people.
36:38
Speaker 2: A lot of acquaintances or friends of friends. Women would
36:42
Speaker 2: come up and shared their stories, and I started to
36:48
Speaker 2: feel like I was a part of this sad club
36:54
Speaker 2: that nobody wanted to be in. But I felt like
36:57
Speaker 2: I was getting more and more support hearing from all
37:01
Speaker 2: these people. I had no ideas, like I had been
37:03
Speaker 2: you know, acquaintances from high school that I thought I
37:05
Speaker 2: knew fairly well, and then they would come up to
37:07
Speaker 2: me and say that this happened to me at a
37:09
Speaker 2: fraternity party as well, my sister had this happen. I
37:14
Speaker 2: kind of held on to those stories to kind of
37:17
Speaker 2: give me strength that trial, like I'm not alone in this.
37:23
Speaker 2: The district attorney who ended up getting very close to you,
37:27
Speaker 2: he's a great man, he had told me, he said,
37:30
Speaker 2: you know, sadly, it's not about the truth. It's about
37:34
Speaker 2: what you can prove in court, and that's always stuck
37:38
Speaker 2: with me. The trial was four days and then on Friday,
37:44
Speaker 2: the fifth day, the jury went out to deliberate, which
37:48
Speaker 2: took a few hours, and then they came back with
37:51
Speaker 2: their verdict and he was found guilty.
37:55
Speaker 1: On Tuesday May nineteenth, two thousand and nine, Gregory's Echo
37:58
Speaker 1: was sentenced to eight years and four months for the
38:01
Speaker 1: crime of first degree rape. After his sentence was completed,
38:05
Speaker 1: he would then have eleven years of parole and have
38:08
Speaker 1: to register as a sex offender.
38:11
Speaker 2: He was taken into custody right then, is handcuffed, taken away,
38:14
Speaker 2: and then a week later I went back and spoke
38:16
Speaker 2: at his sentencing, and that was a really empowering time
38:22
Speaker 2: for me at as much time as I wanted to
38:24
Speaker 2: say whatever I wanted, and that felt really good.
38:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then I'm left to kind of just go
38:31
Speaker 3: on my life.
38:34
Speaker 4: So he is convicted and taken into custody, and I guess,
38:39
Speaker 4: in you know, the movie version, that would sort of
38:42
Speaker 4: be the end credits and there would be this sense
38:45
Speaker 4: of victory. But you know, we know that that's not
38:47
Speaker 4: really how it works legally, and maybe mainly emotionally, once
38:52
Speaker 4: you've been through something like this, what did life look
38:55
Speaker 4: like for you? After the trial?
38:58
Speaker 2: A family friend had spoken to me about that I
39:01
Speaker 2: potentially had a lawsuit case that they had a lawyer
39:04
Speaker 2: that they wanted me to speak with, and I ended
39:08
Speaker 2: up speaking with him, and he was a personal injury lawyer,
39:12
Speaker 2: and he thought that this was a really interesting case.
39:14
Speaker 2: He also had daughters, and he said, I'm passionate about this.
39:19
Speaker 2: I feel like around that time, it was kind of
39:21
Speaker 2: coming out more about kind of some of these like
39:24
Speaker 2: dangers at these fraternity environments, and it seemed like all
39:29
Speaker 2: these bad things that kept happening at fraternities that they
39:34
Speaker 2: weren't held really accountable in any way. And like the
39:37
Speaker 2: lawyer had explained to me, you know, unfortunately, the way
39:39
Speaker 2: to kind of get things to change is to have
39:41
Speaker 2: them have to pay.
39:42
Speaker 3: Money, like that's what matters to these people.
39:46
Speaker 1: Pursuing a civil case against the fraternity meant that Cassie
39:49
Speaker 1: would have to retell her story of the worst night
39:51
Speaker 1: of her life all over again, after having just recently
39:55
Speaker 1: gone through the trial. The civil suit was filed in
39:58
Speaker 1: twenty ten, but was unsuccessful. Cassie lost in twenty twelve,
40:02
Speaker 1: she appealed and in twenty fifteen she won.
40:06
Speaker 2: In twenty fifteen, they ruled in my favor, which in Oregon,
40:10
Speaker 2: that was the first time the appeals court addressed if
40:15
Speaker 2: fraternities could be held accountable for sexual assaults and rape
40:19
Speaker 2: that happened on their premises, And so it kind of
40:22
Speaker 2: set a precedent and made fraternities kind of think more
40:26
Speaker 2: about their policies that they could have in place, kind
40:29
Speaker 2: of regarding members drinking or cutting off access to personal rooms.
40:36
Speaker 1: Wow, so there was some you know, at least real
40:39
Speaker 1: policy change there as a result of this. Yeah, that
40:43
Speaker 1: feels important.
40:45
Speaker 2: Yes, definitely, that was really helpful for me, I think healing.
40:50
Speaker 1: Gregory Sacho served the entirety of his sentence, and in
40:53
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen he was released. He moved back to California,
40:57
Speaker 1: but was on parole and had to register as a
40:59
Speaker 1: second Cassie had been working hard to move on with
41:03
Speaker 1: her life. She'd gotten married, she'd become a mother. Finally
41:07
Speaker 1: it started to feel like the darkest and most difficult
41:09
Speaker 1: chapter of her life was ending. In twenty twenty two,
41:13
Speaker 1: Cassie gave birth to twins, and just five days after
41:16
Speaker 1: giving birth, She was laying on her sofa breastfeeding when
41:19
Speaker 1: the phone ring. It was a crime victim advocate calling
41:22
Speaker 1: to let her know that Gregorysacho was no longer on parole,
41:26
Speaker 1: he was no longer a registered sex offender, and he
41:29
Speaker 1: was no longer guilty of first degree rape. His two
41:32
Speaker 1: thousand and nine conviction had been invalidated. Part of the
41:36
Speaker 1: reason this crime victim called was to see if Cassie
41:39
Speaker 1: felt like going through another trial if the state were
41:43
Speaker 1: to once again pursue a first degree rape charge for
41:46
Speaker 1: Gregory Sacho.
41:47
Speaker 2: If I didn't go forward, he was just free from everything,
41:52
Speaker 2: everything was wiped off, his record, didn't have to register
41:54
Speaker 2: as a sex offender, and so I was also so
42:00
Speaker 2: in shock. Then took some days to think about it,
42:03
Speaker 2: and I decided I did want to try to just
42:07
Speaker 2: go forward and do trial again.
42:10
Speaker 3: So a couple months later, we were at a first
42:13
Speaker 3: kind of.
42:14
Speaker 2: Pre trial hearing and greg was out, so he's appearing
42:21
Speaker 2: over zoom and so it was the first time even
42:24
Speaker 2: just seeing him like on a screen. You're both present
42:27
Speaker 2: for this hearing, and the judge already was coming at
42:32
Speaker 2: me with he literally said, why would you want to
42:37
Speaker 2: go through with this again. You know, Greg has already
42:40
Speaker 2: served his time. His life has already been ruined enough.
42:44
Speaker 2: Why do we need to do this again. I was
42:46
Speaker 2: trying to be so composed, and I just remember at
42:49
Speaker 2: that time just breaking down crying, and the DA stepped
42:53
Speaker 2: in for me and just said, Calsie's life has been
42:57
Speaker 2: greatly changed as well, and brought me back to that.
43:01
Speaker 2: It was just so much victim blaming. Still, why would
43:04
Speaker 2: I want to do this to him again? He's already
43:06
Speaker 2: served his time. Can't I just.
43:08
Speaker 3: Let this go? And that made me mad.
43:12
Speaker 2: But after a few weeks of kind of just I
43:15
Speaker 2: kind of feel like I had kind of like a
43:16
Speaker 2: mini breakdown, kind of started spiraling and decided I didn't
43:22
Speaker 2: want to go through with trial again. I made the
43:26
Speaker 2: decision that what was best for me. I was, you know,
43:29
Speaker 2: a mom of three under two at that time. I
43:33
Speaker 2: just couldn't do this again, even if it meant it
43:35
Speaker 2: made me so angry that he was just going to
43:37
Speaker 2: have a clean record and not have to register, but
43:41
Speaker 2: it was what was best for me at the time.
43:44
Speaker 1: The jury that had delivered Sacho's guilty verdict back in
43:47
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine was not unanimous, but At the time,
43:51
Speaker 1: Oregon law didn't require a unanimous verdict. It required a
43:54
Speaker 1: majority of ten out of the twelve jurors, except in
43:57
Speaker 1: the case of first Dream murder. In twenty twenty, the
44:01
Speaker 1: US Supreme Court ruled that the sixth Amendment to the
44:03
Speaker 1: US Constitution required a unanimous verdict for serious criminal offenders.
44:08
Speaker 1: So in twenty twenty two, the Oregon Supreme Court ruled
44:11
Speaker 1: that this decision would apply retroactively, which meant it applied
44:15
Speaker 1: to Greg Graysacho. His conviction was no longer valid. It
44:20
Speaker 1: was almost like it never happened. He was no longer
44:23
Speaker 1: on parole, he was no longer a registered sex offender, and.
44:27
Speaker 2: So I agreed to let him just plead. He wouldn't
44:31
Speaker 2: even plead not guilty. Is that is, I guess, admitting
44:35
Speaker 2: something he pled no contest to, just like a minor
44:40
Speaker 2: assault charge. So there's nothing sexual. So he's off the registry.
44:46
Speaker 2: I'm okay with it now. I mean, it's not ideal,
44:51
Speaker 2: that was I mean, ultimately I fought trial to get
44:55
Speaker 2: him convicted to have to have that consequence, which to
44:59
Speaker 2: me seems very minor to what he put me through,
45:03
Speaker 2: Like you should have to pay for what you did
45:08
Speaker 2: by registering. Even if I know that he's off the
45:11
Speaker 2: registry and doesn't have it on his record, I know
45:15
Speaker 2: what happened. Everybody that is important to me knows what happened,
45:20
Speaker 2: and I've come to realize that's what matters, and I
45:23
Speaker 2: have to be okay with that.
45:26
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm asking this question as someone who wants to
45:31
Speaker 4: understand as well as I think maybe listeners will have
45:35
Speaker 4: this question. But I'm not indicating that you shouldn't feel
45:39
Speaker 4: like you want him on the sex offender list, because
45:42
Speaker 4: I don't. I think you should feel how you want
45:43
Speaker 4: to feel. I'm curious to know if he had to
45:48
Speaker 4: still register as a sex offender, why do you think
45:51
Speaker 4: that's important.
45:53
Speaker 3: I think that's a very valid question.
45:55
Speaker 2: And I had to think about that a lot too,
45:57
Speaker 2: kind of when I was going through this, and I
45:59
Speaker 2: think for me, what I felt was important about it
46:03
Speaker 2: was he was out of prison and so that part
46:07
Speaker 2: was done, but that registering as a sex offender felt
46:12
Speaker 2: like something else he would have to do as a
46:15
Speaker 2: consequence of what he did for me, and it felt
46:21
Speaker 2: important as something that would still kind of change his life,
46:26
Speaker 2: affect his life in some way, because I felt like
46:30
Speaker 2: I was so greatly affected in so many ways. I
46:35
Speaker 2: would have to get you know, anxiety meds to even
46:37
Speaker 2: have a PAP smear. My whole birthing experience was that
46:43
Speaker 2: was all very triggering and I had to get help
46:45
Speaker 2: support around that, like just to get birth.
46:48
Speaker 3: It's felt like my life was so.
46:49
Speaker 2: Affected still and still is that him registering as a
46:54
Speaker 2: sex offender felt like a little bit that it would
46:58
Speaker 2: still affect his life in some way.
47:02
Speaker 4: Yeah, that makes total sense.
47:05
Speaker 1: How are you today today?
47:08
Speaker 3: I'm doing great.
47:10
Speaker 2: I'm finally at the point where it's a part of
47:12
Speaker 2: my story, but it doesn't feel like it's my identity anymore.
47:18
Speaker 2: And I think there's been so much that's gone into
47:21
Speaker 2: that because it's been so long, lots of therapy and
47:25
Speaker 2: work on myself, and also I feel like telling my
47:30
Speaker 2: story has been a big part of the healing journey
47:33
Speaker 2: for me. I'm part of the Rain Speaker's Bureau, where
47:37
Speaker 2: I've shared my story. I've spoken at fraternities and sororities,
47:41
Speaker 2: specifically in some college criminology classes.
47:45
Speaker 3: But that's also been a way that I feel like.
47:48
Speaker 2: It's helped make me the person that I am today.
47:52
Speaker 2: Where I'm on the other side of this and able
47:55
Speaker 2: to share my story as someone who feels strong where
48:02
Speaker 2: I am now.
48:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's amazing, probably so powerful for those
48:09
Speaker 1: people at those sororities and fraternities to hear a story
48:13
Speaker 1: like yours and you know, nobody thinks it's going to
48:15
Speaker 1: be them.
48:16
Speaker 4: I'm so appreciative of you reaching out and telling us
48:20
Speaker 4: your story. I think it's like really powerful and you
48:23
Speaker 4: tell it so well. So thank you so much. I'm
48:31
Speaker 4: so glad that Cassie spoke with us and was willing
48:35
Speaker 4: to tell us her story. I really found it to
48:37
Speaker 4: be very powerful.
48:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, Cassie reached out to us in an email she
48:40
Speaker 1: had listened to the show, and it feels really great
48:45
Speaker 1: that we were a safe space for her to share this.
48:48
Speaker 4: Yeah, it does.
48:49
Speaker 1: One thing that it really stood out in the interview
48:52
Speaker 1: is Cassie's experience getting a rape kit reporting to law
48:56
Speaker 1: enforcement was so traumatizing, and she mentioned several times that
49:02
Speaker 1: without having the support of two really close friends that
49:05
Speaker 1: stayed by her side through the entire process, she probably
49:09
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been able to do it.
49:11
Speaker 4: Cheers to her friends, seriously, what great friends. I loved
49:14
Speaker 4: that part of the story where they were by her
49:16
Speaker 4: side and helped her when she was like in chock
49:19
Speaker 4: to know what to do for her best interest. It
49:23
Speaker 4: was really really great, and her walking us through everything
49:27
Speaker 4: that happened at the hospital was really powerful as well.
49:29
Speaker 4: We hear so often from people like that experience can
49:33
Speaker 4: be traumatizing, and I believe them, but it's a little vague,
49:36
Speaker 4: and Cassie really walked us through exactly why and how
49:40
Speaker 4: that is. Yeah, and it's easy to understand.
49:42
Speaker 1: And you know, one organization that Cassie mentioned to me
49:46
Speaker 1: on one of our preliminary calls is the Rape, Abuse
49:49
Speaker 1: and Incest National Network, And I looked up some statistics
49:53
Speaker 1: on their website that really speak to Cassie's story and
49:58
Speaker 1: what turns out to be, you know, sometimes a common
50:01
Speaker 1: story on college campuses, and that is sexual violence among
50:05
Speaker 1: undergraduate students. Twenty six point four percent of females and
50:09
Speaker 1: six point eight percent of males experience rape or sexual
50:13
Speaker 1: assault through physical force, violence or incapacitation.
50:17
Speaker 4: And only twenty percent of female student victims ages eighteen
50:21
Speaker 4: to twenty four report to law enforcement. Hearing Cassie's story,
50:26
Speaker 4: you know, these statistics aren't surprising, but like it's really sad.
50:30
Speaker 4: And while it's not difficult to understand, I think it's
50:33
Speaker 4: important to remember that there are so many more stories
50:36
Speaker 4: out there that don't get reported.
50:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, the trauma didn't end after the trial,
50:43
Speaker 1: as we heard from Cassie. So in two thousand and
50:46
Speaker 1: nine the trial, Greg gory Sako's convicted of rape and
50:50
Speaker 1: he's sentenced to prison, and he does go to prison,
50:54
Speaker 1: and so at that point Cassie has this small sense
50:57
Speaker 1: of like justice in her life. And then in twenty ten,
51:02
Speaker 1: Greg Gorysaco's parents they end up publishing a guest opinion
51:07
Speaker 1: in a smaller news publication called The Almanac, and it's
51:11
Speaker 1: titled Guest Opinion How Alcohol Ruined a Student's Dreams. And
51:15
Speaker 1: the letter is really troubling in my opinion. I mean,
51:19
Speaker 1: it's essentially this warning shot for college students, like heavy
51:23
Speaker 1: drinking could leave you very vulnerable to false accusations. I mean,
51:26
Speaker 1: that is how I interpret what they're saying. And the
51:29
Speaker 1: letter also references an accuser of their son, Greg Graysako,
51:34
Speaker 1: who they name in the letter, but never references this
51:38
Speaker 1: person as a victim.
51:39
Speaker 4: And you know, interesting, even though he's in prison at
51:41
Speaker 4: this point that this has been convicted right at this
51:44
Speaker 4: point of the letter being published. He's convicted and he's
51:47
Speaker 4: in prison. And one quote from this opinion piece is
51:52
Speaker 4: the problem with this case was that at the time
51:56
Speaker 4: the alleged incident occurred, Gregory and his accuser were very
52:00
Speaker 4: drunk or quote hammered as you might say. Okay, so
52:04
Speaker 4: this is the quote from the piece, and a lot
52:08
Speaker 4: of inaccuracy, a lot of inaccuracies.
52:10
Speaker 1: We know that Cassie was not drunk at this party,
52:14
Speaker 1: and it is my interpretation that there's Cassie they're talking about, yeah,
52:18
Speaker 1: and his accuser, his accuser, and Cassie has always maintained
52:22
Speaker 1: that she had only two drinks the entire evening. In fact,
52:27
Speaker 1: there was a moment at the hospital where law enforcement,
52:31
Speaker 1: you know, determined she was sober to a point where
52:34
Speaker 1: they didn't even need to take a toxicology test because
52:38
Speaker 1: there was no reason to they didn't believe that she
52:40
Speaker 1: was intoxicated. Yeah, and her friends also corroborated that version
52:45
Speaker 1: of the night. So it's troubling to call her an
52:49
Speaker 1: accuser and to say that she was hammered. She wasn't.
52:53
Speaker 4: Whereas it seems pretty clear that Gregory Sacho was based
52:57
Speaker 4: on witness accounts as well as the fact that they
53:00
Speaker 4: had been tallying the number of drinks in their arms
53:01
Speaker 4: and he had twenty eight tally marks. But yeah, regardless,
53:05
Speaker 4: you know, I think that there's been a lot sort
53:09
Speaker 4: of written about the dangers of alcohol, and hey, that's fair, right, Like, yes,
53:14
Speaker 4: alcohol can be very dangerous, but it's oftentimes been written
53:17
Speaker 4: about in conjunction with the conversation around sexual assault and
53:22
Speaker 4: rape on college campuses and sort of been pointed to, like, well,
53:26
Speaker 4: that's the problem. Well, alcohol is the problem, and I'm
53:28
Speaker 4: not saying it's not a problem, but it's not the
53:32
Speaker 4: full answer.
53:34
Speaker 1: Right, It's not an excuse, it's not It might impaired judgment,
53:38
Speaker 1: and it might lead to an increased risk of sexual violence,
53:42
Speaker 1: but it certainly doesn't negate anything.
53:46
Speaker 4: Because there's plenty of people who get quote unquote hammered,
53:49
Speaker 4: as they say in their letter, that don't act violent
53:52
Speaker 4: or commit crimes against other people. And so obviously there's
53:56
Speaker 4: another issue deeper in there that I think it's important
54:00
Speaker 4: to look at.
54:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely so.
54:04
Speaker 4: In twenty twenty two, Sako's conviction for first degree rape
54:07
Speaker 4: was invalidated and we talked about that in the episode.
54:11
Speaker 4: It was because whenever his conviction happened, it was ORGAN
54:16
Speaker 4: law that there had to be at least ten out
54:18
Speaker 4: of twelve jurors for a conviction, and they, for whatever reason,
54:21
Speaker 4: had that amount, you know, and he was convicted. And
54:23
Speaker 4: then in twenty twenty two, based on a twenty twenty
54:27
Speaker 4: Supreme Court ruling, Organ decided this would be retroactive in
54:30
Speaker 4: all violent cases, which automatically meant that his conviction was invalidated.
54:37
Speaker 4: It wasn't like under review. It just boom, it was over.
54:41
Speaker 4: It was over. He no longer had a record, he
54:44
Speaker 4: no longer had to register as a sex offender. He
54:47
Speaker 4: had already served his time. So the big piece of this, though,
54:51
Speaker 4: that we talked with Cassie about, is this idea of
54:54
Speaker 4: him not having to register as a sex offender. And
54:58
Speaker 4: it's sort of a hot topic. There's an ongoing debate
55:01
Speaker 4: about the usefulness of sex offender registry. You know, there's
55:04
Speaker 4: some people that say it does more harm than good
55:07
Speaker 4: because it can create a false sense of security. It
55:10
Speaker 4: can also disproportionately impact certain demographics and make it more
55:15
Speaker 4: difficult for someone who's been convicted of various sexual offenses
55:19
Speaker 4: to rehabilitate or reintegrate into society. You know, if there's
55:23
Speaker 4: one person who has to register as a sex offender
55:26
Speaker 4: in like a multi family home, this affects everyone in
55:30
Speaker 4: that house. There's also a lot of good arguments in
55:33
Speaker 4: favor of the sex offender registry that people, I think
55:37
Speaker 4: rightly so want to know if there's someone who has
55:40
Speaker 4: been convicted of a sexual offense who's in their neighborhood.
55:44
Speaker 4: So I wanted to talk to Cassie about this because
55:46
Speaker 4: it really seemed to impact her a lot, This idea
55:50
Speaker 4: that Sokko would no longer have to register as a
55:53
Speaker 4: sex offender. This, clearly when we talked to her, was
55:56
Speaker 4: upsetting to her. He'd already served his time. But you know,
56:00
Speaker 4: I was really curious to understand why that was a
56:04
Speaker 4: piece that was such a big deal, so important to her.
56:06
Speaker 4: And I think she made a really good point because
56:07
Speaker 4: she talked. She talked about like, well, she doesn't get
56:11
Speaker 4: the chance to sort of wipe this clean from her life,
56:14
Speaker 4: Like even though she's moved on and she is happy
56:17
Speaker 4: and has a good life, it's not like this doesn't
56:20
Speaker 4: still affect her. It's never over for Cassie. It's something
56:24
Speaker 4: that she lives with all the time. I mean even
56:26
Speaker 4: in her first email to us, it was apparent how
56:30
Speaker 4: deeply present this still is in her life and in
56:33
Speaker 4: her mind. Yeah, I mean that moment when she talked
56:36
Speaker 4: about like being remind of it, of it when she
56:39
Speaker 4: was giving birth, It's like that sucks.
56:42
Speaker 1: That sucks. That should be just like such a beautiful memory.
56:45
Speaker 1: I mean, childbirth is a lot of things, but like
56:49
Speaker 1: I think most of us are able to look back
56:51
Speaker 1: on it as like, Wow, what an incredible day, and
56:53
Speaker 1: hers is haunted by this terrible thing that happened to her. Yeah,
57:00
Speaker 1: only broad in my understanding of that perspective. And I
57:03
Speaker 1: was really appreciative of her for sharing her thoughts and
57:06
Speaker 1: feelings on it. Yeah, we're really thankful to Cassie for
57:09
Speaker 1: sharing her story with us. Well, thank you so much
57:12
Speaker 1: for listening. That is our episode for this week. We'll
57:14
Speaker 1: be back next week. If you have a story for us,
57:18
Speaker 1: we would love to hear it. Our email is The
57:20
Speaker 1: Knife at Exactlyrightmedia dot com, or you can follow us
57:23
Speaker 1: on Instagram at the Knife podcast or a Blue Sky
57:26
Speaker 1: at the Knife Podcast.
57:27
Speaker 4: This has been an Exactly Right production, hosted and produced
57:30
Speaker 4: by me Hannah Smith.
57:32
Speaker 3: And me Paytia Eten.
57:33
Speaker 1: Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi.
57:36
Speaker 4: This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel.
57:39
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
57:41
Speaker 4: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
57:44
Speaker 1: Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.
57:45
Speaker 4: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.