Latest / MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt / Evan Fitzgerald - Chronic Pain, Meditation & Spiritual Awakening: A Firefighter’s Journey Through Trauma, Rebirth and Purpose

Transcript

Evan Fitzgerald - Chronic Pain, Meditation & Spiritual Awakening: A Firefighter’s Journey Through Trauma, Rebirth and Purpose · MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt

• Brynne Erickson (00:29) Evan Fitzgerald, I am so grateful to have you on middle ground today. How do you feel about being here? Evan Fitzgerald (00:37) it's an honor. I love the concept. I love what you're doing. The name itself is inspiring. So I'm happy to be here. Thank you. Brynne Erickson (00:46) Yes, I was really inspired to have Evan on because he has had quite a curveball thrown into his life and he has been dealing with chronic pain for quite some time and has tried to find peace and comfort in lots of different avenues and has recently stepped into the world of meditation, which I am inspired by and has been helpful to me. And I was hoping we can talk a little bit about that. So we're going to dive into Evan's story and how he has been doing his best through this and where he finds strength and peace and yeah, all the things. So Evan, thank you again. ⁓ Tell me a little bit about you and your family to start. Evan Fitzgerald (01:36) Yeah, to like start with my family growing up, I grew up on a farm and my dad was a fish and game biologist. I have ⁓ two siblings that have Down syndrome and a brother and a sister who don't. ⁓ One of the siblings lives with me now. ⁓ When I was younger, my dad passed away at about the age seven. I just had turned seven. So ⁓ that ⁓ is actually where a lot of desire came from to be a firefighter. ⁓ But yeah, that was a pretty rough, painful situation that has carried through every day probably since. ⁓ So yeah, I grew up in the Lehigh area and then my mom remarried and we went up to Mountain Green where I went to high school and graduated and started as a volunteer firefighter there. I was 17 when I started. And then my mission came and I went to San Jose, California. That's right. That's right. Yep. And then after that amazing experience, I came home and found my wife, Sarah, working. I was working at iFLY. She was working at the Flow Rider. If anybody knows what that is, it's... Brynne Erickson (02:46) for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Okay. Evan Fitzgerald (03:04) They're pretty fun experiences. yeah, ⁓ now, you know, fast forward almost 20 years later, and we have a 16 year old boy, ⁓ a 12 year old boy, and a 10 year old boy with a little angel baby that is in between our oldest and middle guy. Her name's Taya. I should give the other names too. Braxton's the oldest, is the middle guy, and then Cub is our little. youngest guy. Brynne Erickson (03:36) They're not so little anymore though. Evan Fitzgerald (03:38) No, ⁓ especially that man child at 16. He's enormous. Yeah, he's way older than me and Sarah. I think he tapped into some epigenetic potential and he got some height somehow. So yeah, that's been cool to see. He's loving his new big body and exploring. He's lifting weights and things. So yeah, it's been fun. Brynne Erickson (03:42) He's here. I love that. Okay, excellent. So firefighting, why was that such a part in your life? Evan Fitzgerald (04:11) Yeah. ⁓ So actually the reason I wanted to serve in any capacity, like as a firefighter or even on my mission was because I felt strongly at a young age that my family would be deeply impacted. I think that was part of ⁓ the reason I wanted to have a job that was admirable, that my kids would look up to. That was also part of it. But then there was the aspect of those people that responded to my house. my worst day and tried their best. And ⁓ even though my brother, he would swing on him when they stopped resuscitating because there was nothing they could do. He tried to convince the paramedics to continue. it was ⁓ just reflecting on that over and over as I grew up ⁓ really inspired me. I wanted to be somebody that showed up. on somebody's worst day to try to, if not ⁓ mitigate the chaos and resolve the issue, then to buffer, you know, to offer a little space. Brynne Erickson (05:27) So how does your world of firefighting lead to where you are today? Evan Fitzgerald (05:34) Yeah. So it was a long road to get to Salt Lake Fire Department. That's where I wanted to work. So I started as a volunteer at Mountain Green. And ⁓ after my mission, I got a part-time job at a local fire department ⁓ in North Ogden. And finally, right before my kid, my oldest was born, I got full-time there. So I loved it. ⁓ I worked as an engineer and as an EMT. But I wanted to help more. felt like there were more skills that I could offer. So I went to paramedic school and that also helped with Salt Lake because they give you extra points, you know, if you have these certifications. So I tested actually for Salt Lake for eight years. It took a while and finally got hired there. I think in 2015, something like that. And it was amazing. The training there was Great. I worked with some amazing people, ⁓ and had a lot of experiences that I'll always, you know, remember the rough ones and the good ones. was a part of some miracles that, ⁓ I'm honored, you know, I'm grateful that I have had the opportunity to be a part of. So it was a beautiful time and everything that I wanted to become, I did, like I even created a wellness program for firefighters. that helped minimize the impact of the job. ⁓ You know, dealing with the extremes that they deal with takes a toll psychologically and emotionally. ⁓ So I saw that ⁓ outside of me and then inside of me, but I realized that we needed more support. So at Salt Lake, ⁓ there was a job opening where I could be like a wellness coordinator as well as an EMS. officer like ⁓ over the training. So that was cool. And I loved building the program and it actually still is working. And that program actually is part of what helped me after what happened. And we'll get to that. But ⁓ yeah, the program basically was built to help firefighters ⁓ have this knowledge and this rapport with other firefighters so that when there was an incident when they were struggling, they could have that peer support. And that seemed to be the best model for, you know, actually making things better. So yeah, that was great. And then we got a deployment to California in 2017 when the fires got real crazy. And it was just before Christmas. Brynne Erickson (08:05) Mm. Evan Fitzgerald (08:23) My wife was unsure. She had intuition that something was going to happen. And ⁓ she'd even tell you today that she felt pretty strongly that I was going to die. And she didn't know if that was logical. But now that we reflect on that, there has been a death of sorts. So what happened was basically we were protecting an equestrian ranch in Brynne Erickson (08:34) Hmm. Evan Fitzgerald (08:50) in California and we're putting out spot fires towards the end of the night. And we saw the spot fire up on this hill. It was a tree that was lit up and it was more than a hill. was like a borderline cliff with loose gravel, really steep. It's one that you have to climb on all fours to get up. so me and my buddy put on our fire shelter, put on our helmets and ⁓ we grabbed a hose and some tools and headed up that about 200 feet. Brynne Erickson (09:07) Yeah. Evan Fitzgerald (09:19) We got to the bottom of the tree and ⁓ we realized that it was unstable. ⁓ It looked like it had been burning for a while, pretty dry. So we get above it and we shoot a straight stream to try to assess the stability and the straight stream of water hit it and it didn't budge. we thought we were okay. ⁓ But then as we were putting out the fire underneath it, ⁓ last thing I remember was a crack, pretty loud crack. And ⁓ I went, I guess, traversed the mountain and my buddy just went straight down. And I guess the way that I went was in direct ⁓ line of the tree fall. So the tree hit me square on the head, a little bit on the face, ⁓ think broke my nose, but broke my helmet for sure. ⁓ And sent me down like a rag doll this little mountainside. And ⁓ I lost my helmet, my fire shelter, and I was just Brynne Erickson (09:53) Hmm. Evan Fitzgerald (10:18) landed face down on this fire, my partner said it was like a campfire. And I was down for around 45 seconds-ish before he got to me pulled me up off of it. ⁓ And it was probably another 45 minutes before I realized that I had been knocked out. It was a familiar experience for me. that ⁓ basically ended with Brynne Erickson (10:28) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Evan Fitzgerald (10:44) this low airway injury from the smoke exposure. And then also ⁓ a gnarly concussion. And after growing up as a snowboarder, I had several concussions, probably around nine. And then this one was years and years later and my body just was not able to recover. So the concussion messed with the systems that regulate immune function. Brynne Erickson (10:57) Mm-hmm. Evan Fitzgerald (11:12) ⁓ So the issue of lower airway injury turned into this reactive airway disease. It's called relapsing polychondritis that attacks the cartilage in your lungs. So it was really hard to understand what was happening, but after that, like it was this just pretty rapid decline in my health. And that just... almost undid me completely. I almost lost my mind completely. And we can talk more about that, but maybe I'll take a break in the story with you. Is there any details that you want to know specifically about? Brynne Erickson (11:53) I think that's a great segue. How long did it take for you to actually get a diagnosis of what was going on? I know that you were frustrated for a long time because you knew something was wrong, but no one could tell you what was wrong or why you were experiencing what you were experiencing. Evan Fitzgerald (12:04) yeah. Western. Yeah, yeah, exactly. like going back to the wellness program that was created, that I got help with and support by the fire department. Mindfulness was a key component to that. So I was meditating somewhat regularly, but that was a saving grace because I went to the pulmonologist and told them what was happening and they basically looked at me like I was crazy. Brynne Erickson (12:35) Mm-hmm. Evan Fitzgerald (12:35) and looked at me like I was trying to abuse the insurance system, right, the workman's comp system. And that's how it was tagged. Even the very first doctor that saw me, probably saw me, ⁓ the resident saw me most of the time and the doctor came in for like three minutes. And then in her notes, she wrote maybe symptoms of the worried well, which means, you know, hypochondria. So after that, I was kind of tagged as that at University of Utah. And I was very much in distress, very much scared and not wanting to see what was happening and accept it. And those combination of things added up to be a pretty ⁓ destructive situation for me mentally and emotionally. ⁓ The fact that my health was deteriorating and that I wasn't gonna be Brynne Erickson (13:22) What were you not wanting to see? Evan Fitzgerald (13:31) this person that I envisioned that I wanted to be for my kids, like I couldn't even wrestle with my kids. can't now. I literally was laying on the couch for years. And all the while the doctors were saying that I was basically crazy. So meditation was the only place that I could really go and see what was true and be with my body and, you know, allow what was happening to happen. yeah, it took years and years before I got an official diagnosis, probably four. And all I relate so much to people that are just floating around in the unknown because it is, is almost better to have a fatal diagnosis than to not know. For some of us who are in severe pain. Cause the mind just wants to know the mind is like exactly. It just needs to know what it's got to do to help. Brynne Erickson (14:19) Yeah, certainty. Evan Fitzgerald (14:23) would the situation be better? Right. So that it kept building and building. ⁓ And I was working on the wellness program this whole time at the same time. And I was working like 14 hour days because I didn't want to see what was happening. And I was distracting with the job like a lot of guys do. And I was running up to with some issues with our administration in the program. which is sad. We don't have to get into that, but, ⁓ I decided that I needed to leave that spot. And there was like my dream job open. It was at the training tower where I got to train, ⁓ new hires. And for me, that's like, I didn't want to be a chief. I don't want to be captain. wanted to make an impact in a way that would be long lasting. And after all the work that I've done with wellness programs over the like 15 years. it was really clear that that was the best way to make an impact was to train these fresh, you know, they were like sponges just willing to do the job in the way that would be sustainable and leave that positive impact that everybody wanted to leave. But when we don't take care of our bodies in the way that, you know, it's necessary, we don't really get that impact that we're looking for at home or on the job. So... Anyway, that's basically where I realized that ⁓ I needed to quit. And that was something that I didn't want to accept, not even in the least. But around that same time, we ⁓ were putting this program out to that entire state of Utah for all the firefighters around the state to come out. And we had chiefs and captains from all over northern Utah to come. They came to this training that Brynne Erickson (15:51) Okay. Evan Fitzgerald (16:18) I was leading. And at the time I was so fragmented with this pain and with this disassociation with life that I was not even close to being able to show up in the way that I needed. And then a friend offered psychedelics, psilocybin specifically. And I had done a lot of research previously. It's almost as if my higher self knew that I would need specific kinds of support leading into this. And the groundwork was like, Brynne Erickson (16:37) Mm-hmm. Evan Fitzgerald (16:48) being laid even way before the injury had taken place. then, yeah, and then my buddy offered this and it just, it opened up an awareness into the reality of what was happening that made it not a problem. Yeah, it was, I received a lot of direction that I'm still, you know, unpacking today. But one of the, Brynne Erickson (16:52) Mm-hmm. Interesting. Evan Fitzgerald (17:16) the things that I was shown was that I would have to leave the job for a while. And I thought it was just a time, a few months maybe or a year or something. But like these are the things that are still unfolding. another thing that kept ringing out was be still and allow. And that's like a mantra that has been soothing like a heartbeat to me throughout this. And... Brynne Erickson (17:28) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Can I intervene for a second? So when you say disassociating with your body and your reality, what does that mean? Because I'm thinking before psych, because that's kind of the term we use with psychedelics as well, right? Like you kind of disconnect from your reality. So like what is the difference? Evan Fitzgerald (17:46) Yeah, please. Mmm. That's actually, ⁓ sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you. Yeah, yeah. I would say that psychedelics, the ones that I have used as medicine do the opposite of dissociate. They give you a view into reality, a deep, deep view into reality that helps ground you in a way that is sustaining. And the dissociation that I was experiencing Brynne Erickson (18:11) No, so go ahead. Just kind of expound on what I'm asking you. What are your thoughts? Interesting. Evan Fitzgerald (18:37) think about it like as a ski hill, right? You have all these neural pathways that are just chaotic, maybe like a lot of ski runs going down it. And psychedelics are like a fresh snowfall where you can like rewire some of these pathways, these storylines that have been taking you down some paths that have been destructive or just wasting energy. so that's, that's what my experience was. And, luckily, the program, it was, It was two days long and it went great. And that's where I feel like I started to learn that there's an intuition and a higher self that if we step aside and open up to it, we'll do the work. And if you allow it, it's effortless at some point. And if you can trust it, it becomes effortless. Brynne Erickson (19:12) Okay. What made you open to trying psychedelics? Evan Fitzgerald (19:33) at the point I was at, I had exhausted every avenue that I had as far as the medical system goes. I didn't have any options and I was suicidal. I was out of my mind. and the dissociation was basically like, this is not real. It is in my mind and it's like cutting your head off from your body. It just doesn't work. and we're not our full selves. ⁓ And so that kind of resistance showed up in everyday life in my house. it became a very destructive energy that hurt my family. It hurt me and a lot of people around me. So along the way, we got some counseling. We've had a lot of counseling over the years. I highly recommend. Me and my wife had some couples counseling. Brynne Erickson (20:20) Good. Yes, me too. Evan Fitzgerald (20:27) And it was recommended that I go to this rehab that's for firefighters focusing on trauma. It's called Dear Hollow. If anybody is wondering and needs it, it's incredible program. And it was an outpatient program that I went to for 10 weeks. I think it was five days a week for about six hours a day. So it was pretty intensive and it was... Brynne Erickson (20:53) Mm-hmm. Evan Fitzgerald (20:54) humiliating in a way because I was drinking to deal with the problem, right? And the trauma was the root issue, right? But the drinking they needed to make sure people weren't continuing to do that because drinking plus trauma doesn't really go very well for most of us for a long stretch of time. ⁓ So yeah, we had to pee in a cup. We had to have somebody watch us and it was daily. Brynne Erickson (21:14) Yeah. Evan Fitzgerald (21:23) So a lot of humbling happened at that time. And I also got to be a part of a group of people that had horrendous lives and like suffering just unbelievably. And I got to see how they dealt with it and how they were showing up. And that was amazing. And anyway, so that helped continue that healing that I felt like the psychedelics started. And then the real integration is the daily meditation I found anyway, and that over the years has been the way that I walk with God daily. It really is. It's an experience that I feel honored to have and to have access to because a lot of us, it's so simple, we don't even know it's there. And it's a... It's a way that I can experience other aspects of my being that aren't in pain. Like I can be with my emotions and I can be with other parts of the body that aren't excruciating pain. And I can even be in the light body or the soul in a way that is beyond the pain. And it's not meant to be constant, right? This is where people get in trouble with psychedelics is that they just want to escape and it becomes, and that actually was part of the struggle that I had. But unless we're doing this daily integration, it's not gonna translate, like that state isn't gonna translate into a trait unless we do the work of integration. So I guess that's a long answer to your question. Brynne Erickson (23:01) Now you're good. What have you learned about balance in life through all of this? Evan Fitzgerald (23:09) Yeah, that's one of the reasons I love your podcast here. So balance. Yeah, I've realized that truth comes from everywhere. And if we try to just go to one place for it, we're going to be missing a lot of it. So part of that balance that I found was going outside of the walls of the religion I was raised in, Latter-day Saint. And I've found incredible beauty. Brynne Erickson (23:11) you Evan Fitzgerald (23:37) and sustaining truth that I don't think I would have made it through without it. So people like Richard Rohr, Thomas McConkie, Cynthia Borjo, there's writers that are really helping to be inclusive, to help people be inclusive when it comes to ⁓ spirituality. So that's part of the balance that I found. Nutrition balance is like, so important. ⁓ eating, I've gotten to the point where my body craves vegetables and balance like as far as ⁓ natural sugars. I don't really do any fake sugars. So that's another area. ⁓ And then I would say like one of the main things as far as balance goes that has helped me the most is ⁓ making sure that I'm taking time every day to sit with my pain in a meditative state. because the pain, it is intrusive. Like right now ⁓ it's excruciating. Like it really is very, very painful. In this real moment, it's ⁓ restricted breathing. ⁓ It feels like I have like goat heads in my lungs because the cartilage is just deformed and hardened. And my trachea right now is pretty painful. ⁓ And it's okay because the picture that I've been given is that Brynne Erickson (24:44) in this Evan Fitzgerald (25:06) All of it is important and all of it's included. And a vocation doesn't just look one certain way. ⁓ Sometimes we're meant to show up in the world in a way that's unconventional and ⁓ maybe even in a way that's ⁓ unknown to us. Brynne Erickson (25:19) Hey What else have you learned about pain and suffering in this human experience? Evan Fitzgerald (25:36) That's a good question. What comes to mind first is a quote by Shinzen Young. He's Thomas McConkie's teacher. Thomas is a close friend and teacher of mine. And ⁓ I highly recommend his work. ⁓ Shinzen Young, said, he has a whole quote talking about this equation of Pain times resistance equals suffering. So what I've learned is that the pain itself isn't unbearable. What's unbearable is the suffering that we add by resisting the natural processes of life. So that I think also leads to maybe the idea of what life is all about, right? Is it meant to be full of pain? I think so. I think that pain is a function that is not a bug, it's a feature. And if we learn how to be with these things like pain and things like, you know, like anxiety and ⁓ depression, and we learn to sit with them, then we see that the true purpose is to help reveal the light that we've been entrusted to sit, helps trim off these things that aren't truly who we are. ⁓ So. Brynne Erickson (26:56) Mm-hmm. Evan Fitzgerald (26:59) That's what I would say just off the top of my head as far as pain, what I've learned. Brynne Erickson (27:07) Awesome. Are there any other ways that you haven't mentioned that you've tried to cope with your pain and find relief and healing? Evan Fitzgerald (27:17) Yeah, ⁓ so I write and that's been really helpful. I'm trying to share the story that I've been given because I think there's a reason I've lived through it and it I've just we've been given so many gifts and miracles along the way. I feel like it would be ungrateful of me not to share it. So that that feels good and purposeful and to do that I've been working working with Thomas in this group called Spectra, which basically ⁓ is over a nine month period where we're going deep into our own content, into our roots, ⁓ our shadow, ⁓ and then learning about what supports ⁓ vitality in us and how each of us uniquely show up in the world and how that is. woven into the beautiful tapestry that is humanity. So that's been really, really helpful. ⁓ there's no real way to quantify how helpful it's been. It's unbelievably helpful. Brynne Erickson (28:29) What are some of your favorite things that you've learned about yourself through this process? Evan Fitzgerald (28:34) Yeah, I've learned that death and rebirth are beautiful aspect of life. And it's a cycle that we're going through constantly. And that's another thing that I found outside of the walls of the religion I grew up in was a saying. I think I even heard this before I got injured. But it's... If you die before you die, then you won't die when you die. It's above the monastery, St. Paul's Monastery in Greece, Mount Athos. And that's, it was amazing thing to just sit with for years and years. And I think I'm getting down to the bottom of really what it's pointing towards. I thought it was also interesting. I learned later on that Muhammad said, something very similar. He just said, before you die. And he said it before that was written and probably before it had gotten to the West. So it just, ⁓ that helps me understand that we're all weaving together, you know, reality and truth. But ⁓ the reason that it's been so helpful is that ⁓ I didn't realize that there was a lot of part, a lot of me that needed to die so that I could be who I meant to be. And I needed to allow that. ⁓ So I'm completely different than I was. I'm a new person and going back to the beginning, my wife said that she was afraid I would die when I went to California. And I would say that I did a big part of who I was. is gone and who I am now, I'm still learning and still ⁓ just growing into and I'm less ⁓ certain that I need to define it and more willing to let it unfold. Brynne Erickson (30:33) I'm just so inspired. And I just love, because I too have come to realize, like, our role in this life isn't to hand everyone a manual and be like, this is how you're supposed to be human. But it's more like, tell me what your life experience is like. And what can I become from your experience? And what do I align with? And what are some things that I don't agree with? And that's OK. But. Evan Fitzgerald (30:33) Yeah. Exactly. Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (31:02) We can still walk together. How can I support you? Do you want to support me? Like, it's for so long humanity has loved putting people in tight little boxes. Like, this is the right way you are of this faith and this faith and of this culture and from this country and of this gender and of this ability or this disability. And I think it's so interesting that we think that that's how it's supposed to be done. Evan Fitzgerald (31:29) Yeah, yeah, we get really confused actually. And in my last Sunday school lesson, they talked a little bit about that confusion. And really, I think the big issue is that we think that the natural aspects of life, mistakes, illness, death, they're a problem and we problematize it. When in reality, the fall is anything that causes separation or creates separation. So the fall is like anything that separates me from God, which is everywhere, right? So that is something that I've realized in it. And that also has been ⁓ life shifting and a beautiful way to see the world. The other way that you described is pretty painful. And it's no way to recover from something like I've been through. Brynne Erickson (32:26) And I think, because you said the fall is more disconnecting from God. I wonder how much of that is disconnecting from ourselves too. And are they actually, is it that different? Like how much of disassociating from whatever your source is or yourself, like, or is it kind of the same thing? Because I've been thinking more on this concept of maybe divinity is more just the divine within myself. Evan Fitzgerald (32:34) Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (32:55) Like maybe it is the same thing. Maybe God isn't actually out there. Maybe it's more just what already abides within me or maybe it's both. I don't know. It's just more of a newer concept for me. Evan Fitzgerald (33:01) I love that. Yeah, yeah, I love where you're going with that. ⁓ way that I think about it is that light is the source, right? Capital L. And we're all fractals of that same light. And we all hit the world differently. And we show up, you know, and the way we show up. And what obscures that is the identity that we develop over time, which is intended, right? Because that it's almost ⁓ Brynne Erickson (33:13) Mm-hmm. Yes. Evan Fitzgerald (33:31) It's almost necessary to have that illusion of separation to build an identity that can witness itself. Because another thing that I've learned is that I really do believe that God, I think it's a Sufi way of saying it, but God longed to be known. So we created worlds visible and invisible. So I think that we are in the image of God in a way that you're talking about. is that ⁓ we are God, we are the body of Christ, and it's up to us to show up in that unique way because the arm needs the head and the leg to get around and do things in the world. Brynne Erickson (34:13) Well, that's incredibly insightful. Evan Fitzgerald (34:17) Well, thank you. I can't say it's mine. I think it's just a synthesized a lot of the stuff that I've been interested in. And this is where I feel like ⁓ seeking you shall find, right? Like we find a way to get through things and we just, if we're willing to open and look, you know, we'll find what we need to make that next step and take that next breath. Brynne Erickson (34:18) You're welcome. That's beautiful. Yeah, and trust it, especially when it doesn't feel, when it doesn't align with what you're used to it aligning with. So like, if it's not traditional or comfortable even, and even if they're the people that are like, we don't, we don't do that, right? But when you take ownership of your life, your journey, your health, your wellness, your peace, and you're open to finding that in whatever way, Evan Fitzgerald (34:53) Exactly. ⁓ Yeah. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (35:14) It is, like, life is literally an adventure now. Like, it is so fun and so exciting. I'm like, how am gonna find the answer to this question? Or who's gonna be the one that's gonna help me solve this problem? And it just, there are billions of people in this world. And there are so many continents and places that have different ways of living and being and believing and. Evan Fitzgerald (35:27) Exactly. Brynne Erickson (35:42) solving problems and one of them is bound to be able to help me in this way. And I think when we pull back from just our little, our boxes, right? We step out of them and we're willing to look around and go, oh my gosh, it is so beautiful up here. Like there's so many different ways of doing life. This is amazing. And it's just been, and it's just lit my life up so much more. Evan Fitzgerald (35:46) Exactly. That's beautiful. I love hearing about that ⁓ because that's similar to my experience. I have so much gratitude for the way, you know, other religions see the world. And to me, it's just they use different symbols. We're comfortable with our own, right? And we see well with our own. But when we try to use somebody else's, ⁓ it gets a little bit difficult, but it doesn't make them wrong. It doesn't make them less true even. So. Brynne Erickson (36:12) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Evan Fitzgerald (36:36) That's been really, really important for me to realize. And the trust that you're talking about is something we can't find unless we know ourselves. And that trust is the trust in the divinity that's within each of us. And once I trust that in me, I trust it in you. And to me, that's the same as trusting God. Brynne Erickson (36:54) How did you come to trust your intuition, your spirit, your inner knowing? Evan Fitzgerald (37:00) Yeah, I would say that when I was going through the issues, you know, initially of not having any answers, ⁓ this is, it was at a time when my wife and I were fighting quite a bit. Our trauma was agitating each other, know, mine was more of a clingy and her response was more of like a push away. So. Brynne Erickson (37:18) Yeah. Evan Fitzgerald (37:27) ⁓ Because I've had abandonment issues with my dad. ⁓ Not that he meant to leave, right? But it's just something a kid carries and adults carry. So I'm being aware of that now. It's really helped me to make space for her. yeah, just during that time, I had to figure out what was true for me because she couldn't reflect it back at that time. And that's okay. Brynne Erickson (37:33) Yeah. Evan Fitzgerald (37:54) And I think that's necessary for us as couples to be able to see it within ourselves so that we can show up as a more complete half, if that makes sense. So we can make a complete whole together. Brynne Erickson (38:06) Mm. I love that. You are individually you and I am individually me, but together we make something awesome. Evan Fitzgerald (38:14) Exactly. Yeah, we make something more than just the two. Brynne Erickson (38:18) Mm-hmm. That's awesome. So do you consider yourself more spiritual or religious or where do you fall on that spectrum? Evan Fitzgerald (38:26) ⁓ I think I would say that I've ever since I was young had a, a aversion to religion, to, ⁓ I, from a young age felt like the letter of the law was being, ⁓ held as more important than the spirit of the law. And So on my mission, actually visited a lot of different churches. I went to Buddhist temples. I went to ⁓ Catholic prayer groups. ⁓ Brynne Erickson (38:59) How's your companions feel about that? That's cool. That's awesome. Evan Fitzgerald (39:01) They liked it. Yeah, they were. Yeah. Yeah. I even tried to do a confession once, but that I guess was inappropriate because I know the priest got mad at me. But it was good experience just to see that these are good people doing good things. And like Richard Rohr says, every religion will produce saints. And that's something I believe ⁓ because it doesn't necessarily matter, in my opinion, the religion. Brynne Erickson (39:11) you Evan Fitzgerald (39:31) because what matters is where two and three are gathered there will I be also, right? That's what we were told. Like this is church for me. Brynne Erickson (39:40) I love that. So I don't necessarily want to close, but I don't know that I have any more questions so much. You're just so wise and you've learned so much. And quite honestly, Evan, I've never really engaged with you until you've been on this side of your journey. But your sweet life, Sarah, is very social and very much on social media. And I appreciated her honesty ⁓ in your guys' journey. Evan Fitzgerald (39:41) You're okay. yes. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (40:08) And I'll never forget her posting things like, I don't know if Evan's gonna be here tomorrow. Whether from your illness taking you or suicide taking you. And I remember just thinking, can't, what would it be like to live in that state and to watch your spouse or whether it's a child or someone that you love struggling through that? ⁓ Do you have any advice? for maybe the family member or the spouse that is witnessing and supporting someone that has been in your shoes. Evan Fitzgerald (40:48) Wow, that's probably one of the best questions I've been asked. ⁓ Evan Fitzgerald (40:53) Yeah, I have a few things that I would recommend. First, trying your best to maintain a calm attitude and ⁓ faith in the person's ability to deal with what's happening is very important. That's actually something that when my dad died growing up and I just had a rough time, it was hard. And my mom would always remind me that she had faith that I... get through it that I had what it took to get through it and that instilled a lot of confidence and courage. ⁓ I would also say that it's okay to set a boundary and not take on what isn't yours even if the person is taking on so much they don't know what to do with and it somehow ends on it falls on you. That's okay to to step away and take your time that you need to be healthy. And I guess the last thing that I would say is that each of us would do each other such an amazing service if we learned how to be present with one another in our suffering. And I don't know if we're able to do that unless we sit with our own and make space for our own and find compassion for the aspects of ourselves that we don't want to look at that we're afraid of. And that, in my opinion, is how Sarah shows up now. And I feel like the container that we have in our marriage is so powerful and supportive. It feels like a heaven compared to what it was before. It was pretty scary. We were pretty close to divorce. But thank God, you know, and grace for helping us become these people that are able to live with this situation that isn't, it doesn't feel, you know, possible to enjoy life when somebody has this situation happening. Like you said, I can't even imagine being on that side and having to witness it. ⁓ I was a puddle for years and she didn't know what to do. I'm sure she was terrified as well. ⁓ I know that she was. We've talked frequently about it. ⁓ And let me just say the two things that really switched things for us for all those couples that are dealing with Brynne Erickson (42:56) Mm-hmm. Evan Fitzgerald (43:15) adversity, no matter what, where it's coming from, is that when I learned to see her for how she was helping me grow, even those difficult things that she was bringing into the relationships, the disturbing things. Bruce Tift has a book called Already Free, and he talks about sitting with your disturbance and even thanking your partner for the disturbance that you get to have a personal relationship with, because we all have things that come up that disturb us. once we learn how to sit with those, they don't interrupt life like they used to. ⁓ that, I guess that's what I would say. Brynne Erickson (43:55) That's awesome. And are there any resources other than that person that you just referenced that you would recommend? Evan Fitzgerald (44:03) Yeah. So Thomas McConkey has a group called Lower Lights. Highly recommend it. They meet monthly and sometimes in person, but you could just look up Lower Lights. ⁓ I would recommend ⁓ our podcast. We have talked a lot about our story in depth, the two of us, me and Sarah, and how we got through it as a couple. It's called Pain's Purpose. ⁓ I'd recommend that if you'd like, if it feels interesting. And then I'm also writing a book that I'd love to chat with you about more in the future when it's complete, but it's pretty close. It's called Pain's Purpose. Yeah, and it's about embracing life in its wholeness, including all parts and witnessing the beauty that unfolds when you do. Brynne Erickson (44:44) Awesome. powerful stuff. All right Evan before we close what do you want to leave with people? Your final words of wisdom or advice. Evan Fitzgerald (44:58) Thank you. Hmm. I would just say they're not my words actually. They're Jesus' words. He said, my yoke is easy and my burden is light. And that's because pain itself isn't unbearable. We can learn to be with it in a way that we don't add extra suffering. It's possible in life. We have the power to change the hell that we've been given to heaven. I honestly believe that and we need each other to do it. Brynne Erickson (45:38) Perfect. I love it. So why so much hope? I feel like this conversation was incredibly hopeful. ⁓ Cause all of us experience pain and suffering, whether it's spiritual, emotional, mental relationships, physical, no one is exempt from it. So you can either learn to embrace. mean, that sounds weird, right? Like how do I embrace my pain? But it is such a critical. Evan Fitzgerald (45:46) Thank you. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Thank you. Brynne Erickson (46:06) part of this life experience and you have just taught us so much about that. So thank you. Evan Fitzgerald (46:13) Thank you for the opportunity. It was an honor to be with you.