Latest / Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves / EP112: Baden Kerr - Reinventing Life After Rugby: The Path to Teaching and Coaching Success

Transcript

EP112: Baden Kerr - Reinventing Life After Rugby: The Path to Teaching and Coaching Success · Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What was your professional career like?
• 0:01
  Speaker 1: How did that really sort of shape you?
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: It was interesting in hindsight because the first sort of half of it was all this probably identity in terms of without rugby or without this, I don't know who.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: I am too.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: I had so many injuries throughout my career to the point where I had two little broken bones in my fingers that were badly broken.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: I just kind I had surgery on them and I went from playing super rugby against Australia, new Zealand, south Africa to I'm out for a season, to you need to perform well in this next season to get a contract to breaking another finger, to being like what's going on, like I just can't even go into rugby field without falling apart.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: So then I went to the UK and wanted to reinvigorate my career there and then, as I'm sort of leaving, get there in the cold, I find out I've got arthritis in those two fingers and at that point I was like I don't, I can't enjoy this anymore because it hurts physically to catch a ball, to pass it, the real basic part of the game.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: I can't do without discomfort of pain and I sort of masked it for a year and a half over there in the UK until I finally got them fused to take the pain and I sort of masked it for a year and a half over there in the UK until I finally got them fused to take the pain away.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: But I didn't open up enough or talk to people enough about it.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: So I got to the point where I was so low and because I was so low I ended up getting four concussions in that season, to the point where they're, like you know, no more rugby for the foreseeable future.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: And and at that point I was, was like man.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: I'm 26, 27.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: This is where I'm supposed to be peaking and I'm just declining and I just can't enjoy this anymore.
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes.
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story.
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations.
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty.
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: Elite athletes are still people after all.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Baden, thanks for joining me on the show today.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Looking forward to our conversation, learning a bit more about you where you're at today, and understanding that journey.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Ryan.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to be here and looking forward to the year.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: Brilliant and well, I know, when we caught up last time we were really having a sort of a chat about you and the journey and really got into, I suppose, an appreciation or understanding of you in teaching.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Now, for those who are listening, who I guess don't know who you are, don't know that bit about you, please just give us that little lowdown on you.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess former professional rugby player, like many, have had a few different stoppages in terms of retirement and injuries and the rest.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: But now at the end of my career where I'm now involved in teaching working as a teaching assistant, work in the gym, do a bit of coaching in rugby, coaching at a school there and also working on a little bit of a kicking business on the side to see where that goes, to pass on some knowledge from my career.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: So that's where I'm at right now and, yeah, just battling, like many, to find their feet after rugby, but finally in a place now where I'm in the right direction.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: That's so good, Great that you're finding yourself in that right direction and you know, like you say, we'll chat a little bit about what that battle is that we all kind of go through.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: I really love the point you mentioned there.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: Just, you know, kicking off with that bit of kicking coaching, trying to find a way of giving back.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: You know you seem to be doing that in sport, but then also with with children in in education.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: What is it about the kicking um in particular that you know that that sort of inspires you to give back through that coaching?
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: something that was probably one of the strengths I had whilst I was playing was the kicking side of things.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: And I remember early on in my career when I was trying to crack the semi-professional side of things before it went into the fully professional sort of sports psychologist and he said go to the head coach of this team and ask them what they need for you to make the team.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: And again I was 18 or something and pretty terrified I was like I can't go up for the coach of the top side.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: He pretty much came back and said we need at least like a 75% kicker and if you can get to that range then you'll be in a conversation.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: I just remember getting obsessed with that, trying to get to that percentage.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: I'd write down my kicks each week, set myself a plan in terms of how many times I'd need to kick a week.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: By the end of the season I was sort of kicking 85% and made the team.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: So I guess it was an early indication of what could get me in a position of professionalism that could separate myself maybe from others and the work that went in.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: So I guess that was the start and I got more and more obsessed with the kicking and just something that I feel is a little bit more natural to me to give back with.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: I guess that obsession led to a bit of knowledge acquisition, so it just seems like a natural progression really.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: You know that's really interesting.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: What's interesting for me is that started at 18.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: It starts with that question to a coach what do you need?
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: And then you, you flick the switch, you, you find that I don't know how do you?
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Were you passionate about kicking?
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: Was that something you were interested in prior to that particular season?
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: yes, I grew up playing soccer or football, um, so I guess it was a natural.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: When I came to rugby, I didn't know what to do necessarily, so I'd kick the ball, probably more than I should, because in soccer that's all you do, right?
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: So it was something I was naturally good at.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: I suppose I wasn't necessarily great at it because I didn't have all the technique or anything like that, I just probably so used to kicking a ball for so long.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: It was natural and it was alright, it was pretty good.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: But I wasn't necessarily consistent and I didn't necessarily have a real plan.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: So that was great for me, a having that psychologist who I'm finishing off a book with just now at the moment, which is awesome to look back and learn things that he taught me back when I was 18, 19.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: But just having that plan that he pushed me in the right direction and also having a bit of a passion for it combined made made that, um, I guess, more of an obsession yeah, yeah, I mean that's.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: That's really good, that being intentional about something, getting a plan in place, but also building on a strength.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: Finding out that strength, that's something that was perhaps more natural to you because of your experience in in soccer, in in football, yeah, so I mean, on that point then, for you growing up, what was sport?
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: How you know, how did sport really come into your life and start to influence the way that you grew up?
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: Probably?
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: as, as I'm finding out as I get a bit older, I'm probably more likely than not, got an attentive ADHD and sport for me was just a vice.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: I was obsessed with anything and everything to do with sport and I think that's where I was super fortunate was I went to little primary schools and schools that had many sports to choose from and would play pretty much anything under the sun, and every now and then was just to get out of class and school and go to competitions much anything under the sun, and every now and then was just to get out of class in school and go to competitions.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: But I was, yeah, one of those looking back, I was just obsessed, was outside all the time, whether it be, you know, soccer ball, rugby ball, uh, skateboarding, basketball, anything.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: Anything I could get my hands on I'd do.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: And I remember getting to the point where I must have been about 13, 14 and I was playing basketball, soccer and rugby in the same season.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: And I remember asking mum can I play ice hockey?
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: And she's like no chance, you're playing bloody everything under the sun and that's expensive and there's four kids and the two of us.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, sport was always at the head of everything I did and I guess I kind of laid a lot of my identity on sport before I ever knew what that really meant.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: So when it wasn't there, when I had injuries and things, it made it doubly as hard, and so you're talking about that multidisciplinary sports, or lots of sports that you were playing and enjoying.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: When did you have to choose or start to specialize in a particular sport?
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: yeah, I was super fortunate at the school I was at, where most kids around sort of that 14, 15, we have to make a decision, that's sort of in terms of time commitments, and I guess most teachers and parents want you to, you know, hone in on one on one sport and go in that direction.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: And I had some PE teachers that at the time were like you're going to get some crossover skills.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: I was playing sort of first 11 when I was in year 14 and the coach and the under 15 rugby coach were like, well, he's pretty good at both, why not he have one night off training for rugby so I can do the soccer whilst being part of the under 15s, which is the first year I played rugby.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: And then I played basketball on a Tuesday and they didn't that one didn't overlap and they were really encouraging by allowing me to play.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: So it wasn't really until the following year, which was I guess I was 15, going on 16, where I sort of honed in on on the rugby with the time commitment, still played the soccer, because we played on a Wednesday night and ended up playing soccer all the way through to 18 or the last year of school.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: So I was really fortunate there and I think that helped me massively too, because I was coming into a sport I didn't know a huge amount about technically and tactically and all my eggs weren't necessarily in that basket or my focus wasn't all there.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: So I had that other outlet, or canvas to, to play soccer and have a secondary way to express myself what was it then?
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: I always ask all of those sports where did academic performance fit into that?
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: it's a great question, ryan.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: Now I was, um, I was probably, yeah, it's a.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: It's now that I know what I know about myself as I get a bit older, it's um, I was extremely fortunate with the people around me at the time.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: So I there were some things I was a little bit better at say, like you know, creative writing or english things like that, that were a bit more subjective, the sort of black and white topics, the subjects I really struggled with.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: I was kind of like always wanted to know the why and you don't need to know the why of a mass equation and science and stuff, and I really struggled with those ones.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: Then, yeah, the subjects I wouldn't necessarily say I enjoyed or did all right at like I passed.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: The subjects I wouldn't necessarily say I enjoyed or did all right at like I passed.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: But again, it was a pretty early learning how important having the right people around you are in a situation like that, because I wanted to do well.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: I just didn't want to be sitting down for long periods of time when I could be outside or playing sports.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: And I had a partner, a long-term partner at the time.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: I met in high school.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Her mum was a deputy principal and she went on to study and do a PhD in education and she was huge for me.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: She helped push me and keep me on task and get me through high school and then the same thing with my university degree.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: She was huge for that.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: So I'm even finding out now with my studies that I can't I don't think anyone can truly do things alone.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: But knowing that it's not a strength of mine, weighing on other people the best I can and people that are willing to help, not necessarily pushing myself onto others, was massive for me and I guess in a platform that wasn't a strength necessarily of mine.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so thinking back to that time, how did she help?
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: What was it that she did?
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: it's interesting, looking back.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: The classes I did well and um weren't necessarily to do with the enjoyment of the topic.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: I had teachers that would just constantly said I'll be off task and get me on task, and it was often as simple as now, bad, and I'll go back on task or I'll get distracted, baden, stop talking.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: It was just this ability that teachers probably were similar to that as students themselves, and they could see that I wasn't like a big eagle, I wasn't rude or I wasn't disrespectful, I just was easily distracted.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: And I think the mum at the time as well.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: She was very aware of that and she was on my case when she could see me drifting.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: If she'd see I was really struggling, she'd tell me to stand up, move around, and it was a deeper understanding they had for me than I could ever have about myself at that age, which is why, looking back, I'm extremely fortunate that I had those teachers and had Kay in place there to sort of keep me on task and that was the biggest struggle and still is today and had Kay in place there to sort of keep me on task.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: And that was the biggest struggle, and still is today Need them all back again playing exactly the same roles.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: It is interesting you talk, though, about that support structure that you had getting you through school or getting you through that study period, and you needed that as a way to balance, I guess, focusing on, on sport and perhaps elements that weren't your strength, when you then, you know, consider about you know, you and sport, when did it start to get serious or when did you start to realize, hey, I'm good at this, maybe it can take me somewhere?
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: it was early on.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: I didn't.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: I never really thought necessarily myself, because with the soccer stuff I was obsessed.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: I was naturally really good at that up until in New Zealand you get a nudge and a nudge every year from the age of five to play rugby with your mates, drawings and things from from primary school.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: That said, I want to grow up and play for manchester united and um had a real obsession there and in my mind at sort of eight, nine years old I thought that was going to happen.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: And going over to rugby so late I never truly thought that that was going to be a profession necessarily.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: I was just at the point where I was like what do you mean by late?
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: Late into rugby, yeah, so I started, um, my first year, I guess properly playing was under 15s, um, so I was sort of at that time and I think looking back it's it's probably a blessing in disguise that because I wasn't necessarily naturally good at it or had played it up until then, I had to learn everything as quickly as I could.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: So I became super obsessed, I guess, with figuring out you know the real basics and fundamentals to to just just know how to play, because I was in a position at an age where you should know the game because you've got to control it with your actions, your voice play calling.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: So it was really a blessing in disguise at that age that I had to completely dive into learning it.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: And I even had a coach at that time who would give me sessions at lunchtime and he was like a forward in rugby, which is completely different position than me and he'd take me for kicking sessions and looking back I was like it was insane because he just didn't need to do that.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: And I remember saying the second to last year of school we're mucking around or something, and and he goes, you can all think you can do this, that and the other, and none of you are going to make it outside of rugby, maybe Baden or something.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: I was like sort of taken aback by that because I never again thought that anything would come of it.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: And I suppose the following year after that is when I started making, or I made my first rep team and then was leaving school and had a phone call from an academy of the team that I went on to play for, counties Manukau Steelers and he said you know, we think there's something there we want to invite you to the academy twice a week and have a bit of a trial period over four weeks and then, if we think you're up to standard, then there may be an opportunity there for you.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: And it was that point in time, which is again just as school was finishing the year, school early, yeah, early 20, uh, 2008, looking back and and at that point I went to these trainings and I was pretty overwhelmed at first because these guys are like box squatting, like over 200 kgs and doing these hectic conditioning trainings and and um yeah, these decisions were really high quality and I think at that stage, as soon as I did a few of them, especially especially the rugby stuff, I realized the higher you go up sometimes, the easier it becomes.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: So I had amazing coaching, everything was simplified and it made everything easy for me to concentrate on.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you mean by that?
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: The higher you go up, the simpler it becomes or the easier it becomes.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: Yes, I think, from a basic standpoint, it's just about doing your role.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: So when you get, the higher you go up, the more you just focus on your role.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: You do that really well and everyone else is doing the same and that comes together and colludes into a team and early on I guess you don't even know better, but you're just sort of covering tackles here or you're overplaying your hand or you're trying to do other things, maybe because there's holes or gaps in defense or attack or in the team.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: And the higher you go up it again was great, for my mind, I think it was.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: I need a fair amount of structure and and um discipline put in place so I can just go out there and do it and follow it without too much thought, and I think by relieving some of that thought with things simplified and whatnot made it, uh, a lot easier to to pick things up at a rate that I love.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: it just felt like I got better every training it's a really interesting insight the way you describe you doing your role.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: You focus on you the higher you go up and in those levels, I I guess the way you describe it, as it gets simpler that that's not something I've, it's not really something I've discussed.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: It's not something I've.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: It's not really something I've discussed.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: It's not something I've really stepped into on that level.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: Do you so when you were, you know, when you were playing and you were younger?
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: Do you, as you look back, do you think, yeah, you were doing more and you actually started doing less and less as you became, well, better?
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: You sort of again, again, when you don't know any better either.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: You're sort of overplaying your hand, you're trying to do everything.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: You sort of it's funny watching, I guess, schoolboy rugby or lower levels now, because you can completely relate.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: You know, you think from a really young age you'll be the same in football, soccer, the honeypotting because you don't know any better.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: Right, and then, like, as you get older, you start to slowly understand there's a whole field around you and the ball gets you if things are done well, and again, that's the higher you go up, the more that becomes really simplified and the direction becomes easier.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: So you know exactly what to work on.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: You know there's the real basics.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: There's a little bit of that technical, tactical and it's yeah, it's just the best coaches I've had were so amazing at simplifying um what I in my mind, probably a lot of other players over complicated and um overthought you know it's interesting.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: You think about you as a, I guess 15 year old, 16 year old soccer player, and coaches and others saw something in you that suggested you were worth that additional effort, that additional work to get you to become a better rugby player.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: What do you think they saw in you?
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: that you didn't see.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: Those teachers are the ones that made me want to be a teacher, because they have had so much impact on me and still do well, long after I've left.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: And looking back and them giving me that time was incredible.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: I bumped into a PE teacher one of the, the soccer coach, uh, about a month or two ago back in New Zealand when I went back to see family and yeah, he's just still the same same man and I don't know if it's necessarily just about um, seeing something in me or the type of person or people that they were, that they were just so willing to to give anyone a go.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: And I think the soccer stuff was probably almost obvious, because there's a real innate natural ability there and and I was sort of making rep teams and things like that, and the beauty of it was I think they probably thought that was at the time when I was starting rugby, that was my strength and that was probably, if I was going to go any further this is my thoughts in hindsight anyway that that was going to be the sport for me.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: But they were so willing to support my decision in playing rugby so they wanted me to still play, like this first 11 at a young age and just battle away at under 15ss before potentially going up, and I guess them supporting me to find that out for myself was the most beautiful thing to me, because it's just yeah, just thinking back, if I put myself in my in the shoes that I'm in now as aspiring teacher and I'm really passionate about doing this kind of thing I would still find it extremely difficult to allow people that space and opportunity, give them the support around teaching and coaching, like hundreds of other kids.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, it's hard to put a finger on exactly what they saw and why, but it was just the support that they allowed me was pretty special.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think it is.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: I often ask and so for me as a, as a coach as well, not as a, not in the career sense, but on field, so as a football coach and often you get this view on we see this talent or we see this little spark and within that spark often it's a, they've probably got the skill to do that, but it's often in a mentality that we see which makes us believe that actually, if we sharpen that mentality, that would work really well in this particular sport or in this particular position.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: And so listening to you and even a coach saying to you, kicking and recognizing, there's, I guess, a positive, obsessive behavior in you that made them believe well, you're going to work hard at that and you're going to, you'll be excellent at it, because we can see you've got an actual eye or command or something about you there.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: That's actually a really good point you make because I think, without even directly thinking back to me, in that age or that position, it's often the kids that have this raw competitiveness about them.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: You've got to sometimes slow them down and be like, look, this is a PE class or this is just for fun.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: I love, and I'm not trying to take away your competitiveness at all, but let's try to get the other people involved.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: You've got to try to taper that but you don't want to take it away.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: And I guess, looking back to the kids that probably did crack on to either make it or get close to making it and really persist, are those ones that sort of have that extra edge in terms of competitiveness and, like you say, like a bit of an obsession.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: So you're right, I think I see that in kids now and it makes you want to to.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: The ones that are coachable, that have that mentality, is the ones that you want to put the time into yeah, yeah, that's right.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: So I'm interested.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: There's a.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: There must have been an interesting period for you, as you were leaving school and I speak with many school leavers and you know I'm sure that those were leaving the 18.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: They're thinking, right um, um, that's it, my sporting support is done.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: I'm now in all age, open age, this is it.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: At that point did you feel a rugby career was, was in reach for you, or or were you off, thinking, okay, right, um, what's my next level of educational work?
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: yeah, good point that's.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: It was an interesting time, sort of straight after school, because I had this little gap where I hadn't had that conversation with the academy coach and I was applying to universities, got into one in Otago I was living in Auckland and then got into AUT, which is in Auckland, was the better one.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: Aot was pretty on par.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: But you know, I didn't necessarily have any clear direction of playing sport professionally at that point.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: So I was like I'm going to go to Otago and give this a crack.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: And then I was playing some Aussie rules.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: I played like two or three games on a Sunday and there was a guy that's like oh, have you ever thought about playing Aussie rules?
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: I do prefer rugby, like I've just been doing on a Sunday with a couple of mates.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: He's like we could get you over to a feeder club in Melbourne and give you a trial with Geelong and this, that and the other and get a little job and see how you go there.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: And because at that point I was like you know, sport's still number one for me.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: I was like you know what, maybe I'll do that.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: And literally the time I made the decision I got the call that day more or less from the academy coach, so that made the decision pretty easy.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go with the academy and I'm going to go to AET because I can travel 45 minutes from home to university and try to juggle both and see where it goes.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: Because at the time it was a trial, I didn't necessarily know or think that there was a profession there and it was probably in that first year of uni where I was playing under 20s and in the under 18 sort of system in my area I was always sort of behind people, I was second or third string in my position and then I made under 20s and was, you know, first string and starting every game and was in chalk talks for making New Zealand 20s on the trials.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: Sorry for that, and I was at that point I was oh wow, maybe I am a little bit better than I thought and there's an opportunity here.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: And that's where I guess I sort of saw a bit of opportunity and and I started to go after it there right, it sounds like you needed.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: You need the hours in order to to catch up to everybody else and on perhaps on just some of the basic things.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: Right, you know that is.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: That is very much the case.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: What were you studying?
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: Again, the teachers that had the impact on me were so large.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: I was going towards a teaching, so I was doing a Bachelor of Sport and Recreation and at that time you do, you know you're a bachelor, then you do a diploma of teaching.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: So I was in that direction, heading in that direction.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Everything sort of started to kick off towards the end of my degree, so I'm back at the second part of it now.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: Well, so talk to us about that.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: Like you say, the rugby started to kick on.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Where did it take you?
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: Where did it go?
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Sort of.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: I guess I was really fortunate in that year where, like I said, I started to believe maybe there was something there.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: That Christmas Eve I've never been, never been out on Christmas.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: Christmas Day is massive for our family.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: It's a big day just catching up with a large group of people who who are all super special to me.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: And on this Christmas Eve after that, that year of under 20s where I started to believe and was doing the academy stuff and whatnot, it was out out with some mates and my brother and that and ended up sort of someone was picking at a mate of mine and eventually we went outside out of the bar that we were in and it was just chaos.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: And again we were going out there with really poor intentions and this is probably one of the harshest lessons I've learned.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: But the best lessons I've learned was went outside and there's all sorts going on and I wouldn't even know where or who was, was egging at my mate and next minute I got pulled over from behind and I don't even think it was anyone related at all, just chaos out there and didn't realize but fell and dislocated my shoulder.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: And again, christmas Eve there was a lot going on by the time I got to hospital it was two, three hours later.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: From the same area someone had passed away in a car accident.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: Doctors told me after they came in again a few hours after that.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: So my arm had been out for about six odd hours before they finally got it in and I damaged nerve, needed about six months to try to get the nerve to refile before I got surgery.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: So I missed about 13 14 months of rugby and that was an amazing lesson for me and also a blessing in disguise, because it meant that whole year I could put the time into the uni and gave me a real head start to complete that degree.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, it's funny looking back on that and one of the best lessons I think I've ever learned, especially like I've still.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, would have it been out again on a Christmas Eve, because to get something so stupid to get in the way of something so important like family and to jeopardize what was at the time a developing potential career was probably just what I needed in a lot of ways.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a tough way to learn a lesson listen when you talk about.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: You had a belief, you had a view of where you might be able to go.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: What was it that gave you belief?
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: What were you feeling?
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: What did you see in the tea leaves to give you this oh, hold on, I could crack on here and do something special.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: I think I was really lucky in that under-20s team because a lot of those players were incredibly talented and we were quite successful in there and at the same time, in the academy that I was training, a lot of the guys when I joined a year, two, three years older than me, were making the top side and I was getting to train with these guys twice a week, most mornings in the gym, and when it came to sort of like the scrimmages or the pose sessions and stuff like, I was feeling pretty comfortable for the first time playing rugby and these guys were now getting paid to play a lot of them.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: So it was a bit of a realization there through action.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: I suppose I still didn't necessarily have the internal belief, but I could see it through what was sort of transcribing through the training sessions and I guess when I uh that there was interest in the new zealand under 20s and things like that, I was like it was, I guess, again external validation or gratification, which isn't necessarily again at that age.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: It's not necessarily the best thing, but it's all I knew and that was kind of the the uh, the turning point for believing maybe I could go somewhere with it yeah, again that.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: I suppose it's that interesting bit this theme coming through is, whilst there is that extrinsic, as you're saying, that external validation or someone sees something and you're getting that support, it sounds like you're following it through enjoyment.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: You're following it because, well, actually, yeah, I'm happy doing this sport, you, you know playing and being around those types of people.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: So, or coming back from this injury, what type of goal had you set yourself?
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: I wanted to be in the mix the following year for for the, for the top side, for um the steelers, which was the semi-professional team, and and it was still felt so far away.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: But and it's probably a great age almost to go through such sort of um difficult times because you know prefrontal cortex and all the rest of it doesn't necessarily, um, think and think logic.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: You just sort of get on with things without much thought and and I still had that obsessiveness to come back stronger and didn't necessarily I had great support through the gym, through the academy stuff, but I just would go for like up to 15, 16k runs.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: When you're necessarily at that age you want to be doing more specific stuff, but I just had this obsession to come back and see where it could go with probably a new lease of life, knowing that it could be taken away and and I'm sort of, yeah, in charge of doing the rehab and doing the work and there's no one else that's really going to be doing it for me and so, as you're coming back and whilst you are, whilst you'd started off thinking, teaching is a path that you wanted to explore, coming back from injury, you're seeing rugby semi-professional rugby now as this thing that is really tangible.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: What decision did you have to make in order to set yourself up to be your best for rugby?
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, looking back, it was a difficult time because I was still going to most classes university classes so I'd go to the gym in the morning.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: For those there's a couple always had like two or three sessions that you could choose from in the morning.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: From memory it was, I think the earliest one would have been 5.30, 6, yeah, 5.30, 7.30, maybe 9.30, something like that.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: So I'd go early, then I'd and sometimes still in my kit, I'd boost up to uni, get to class and then again do what I had to do at uni, get to the lectures and then come back in the afternoons four days a week.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: I had trainings at night and I guess, again, it's probably a good age to be running around like that because you've got the energy, but in terms of sacrifice, you get the energy to do it.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: But I still remember how tired I was at some lectures and falling asleep and I'd take apples because I don't know where I heard it that eating an apple can wake you up when you're sleepy or tired.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: So I'd always have an apple with me.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: I don't know where I heard that, but I swear it helped my son coming from rugby.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: He said exactly the same thing.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: He says, daddy, yeah, I need to eat apples because it's like having two coffees or something.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we get that okay.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: So I had that belief anyway.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just vividly remember, just trying to stay awake.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: But, um and again, that's probably not necessarily just exhaustion from everything I'm doing, but I think my brain almost tells itself to shut down a little bit when I'm sitting still.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: So you've got to find ways to sort of keep myself active and keep hands moving.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: If I'm doing notes or you know, I can't just be sitting and listening, so you sort of learn ways around it.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it was an interesting time in how much travel and sacrifice I had to make in that sort of year to get in with a chance.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: And with that chance, where did you get to?
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: Funnily enough sort of the start of the run of all my injuries in a way.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: But I was really fortunate.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: The team that was starting at the time first game got a concussion and hit a few.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: So I came off the bench, played that game and then got to start the next game and it was against a team that should have smoked us in terms of the players they had.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: I think they went to the final that year and I just ended up playing really well in my first start and got two more starts and then developed a stress fracture and my backing was out for the season.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: So within the space of four games, I think I was just fortunate enough that I worked incredibly hard.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: Within the space of four games, I think I was just fortunate enough that I worked incredibly hard, was so obsessive and had a piece of advice early on from an old County Road player I was doing some kicking just before that first game.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: He said always be ready, Always be ready, Someone could get injured.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: And you're there starting and don't take a backseat and be a passenger.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: I remember hearing that at I must have been 21 at that point and just running with it and it made a really big difference because obviously the next week I was starting and got an opportunity after those four games.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: Thankfully they offered me two-year contracts following that, which again blew me away, because I played four games and at that time had a stress fracture my back that took nine months to heal.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: So again was probably getting the validation and gratification from external resources, but again that was probably all the work I was putting in was showing out there on the field.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: So it was again a good lesson to know that I'm in control, what I'm in control of and how that can impact the performance.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: It is interesting hearing you say that, because that focus, the focus that you had on the game, the focus on supporting yourself but I love the quote or the advice about always being ready and perhaps that you know we'll say obsessive nature, but that you were preparing yourself to come on and but you took it and that preparation helped you take, I guess, advantage of that opportunity and, you know, ultimately got you the contracts that you were seeking yeah, it's, it's.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: I was probably at that age where, again, I was still so keen to learn because I felt like I still didn't know that much um, and in hindsight like I probably put enough work into to feel confident, but I still just had this inner belief that I didn't know.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: I didn't necessarily know nearly enough to be in this position.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: So I'll take on so much advice and my dad passed when I was 15 and the guy that gave me the advice, um, knew my dad and he did it without a conversation, um, maybe six months or so before, about him knowing my dad.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: For the fact that it gave me this sort of connection to, to my dad six years on after his passing, to someone who'd played over 100 games for the this team, um, to give me this time to walk down, see me kicking and give me that time really resonated with me at the perfect time yeah, I mean one of the bits you know, you think about how, how the you know, that memory, how that connection really helped you to take that advice on board.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: And one of the things really conscious of is who gives the advice?
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: It's something I'm super fascinated by in terms of that feedback mechanism, the advice mechanism, the mechanisms that are out there and so who gives it to you, how it resonates, how you absorb it and sort of act from it.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that sort of coincides with the coaches and we mentioned earlier that you're probably getting a lot of the same messages from different people and, like you say, it would be interesting to truly know and again, sometimes we consciously know this is a coach that's coached the All Blacks or has performed at this level, so naturally your mind and body probably really focuses in on it.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, the same thing that you hear from parents they're like a lot of them that may have been really good athletes themselves or played at a high level.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: They know or try to separate themselves from a lot of the, I guess, coaching and advice giving because their dad, like it's hard to play two roles.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: So I guess it's dependent on who gives it to you and what setting really makes a difference and you don't always necessarily know why.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: But you're right, it'll be interesting to truly know the reasons behind it.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: When you look back at that, the contract.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: You got the contract two years, boom, this is it.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: Off you go.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: How did that change your aspirations of teaching?
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: Well, thankfully it was a semi-professional contract so we trained year-round, but it's only like a three-month season.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: So I was.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: I thought I was rich, I got paid.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: I think I remember the first season that I signed that was for that season was like 15 grand and I was like, wow, this is insane.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: Like I was getting paid three grand a year for the academy on 220 bucks from the government to study.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: So so like that to me.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: Um with the study just felt like I was.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: I could get subways twice a week.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: I could get um every now and then.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't just get sub sub of the day, I'll get like a chicken teriyaki on, yeah, yeah, on the good bread.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: So again it was.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: It was a great time where I could fully dive into rugby with the support around me and more training, more exposure to doctors, physios, trainers, the rest of it, but not being my entire life just yet, I could still do my study around it.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: And yeah, that was again a real struggle to manage everything, but to me there was no other choice.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: And again I had the belief, but I still didn't necessarily know that I'd make it to the next level where it was fully professional.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: And again really fortunate, the following year, after coming back from the stress fracture, I had a reasonable season, like a pretty good season, and then that carried over to the next season and that's when I got involved with, I guess, my first fully professional contract, which was in the Chiefs training squad.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: So it slowly snowballed into the fully professional.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I never truly believed until I got there.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: So interesting looking back.
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: There are too many stories of bankruptcies, mental health issues and, unfortunately, suicide, and so I think it's time to act.
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: Every year, we see thousands of athletes that reach a point where they need to consider their life after they leave sport.
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: This might be a retirement injury or they need to juggle dual careers, between sport and a job.
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: As a former English professional footballer, I have somehow managed to transition from sport into banking strategy, innovation and now life coach, career practitioner and founder of the Second Wind Academy.
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: So I want to help those around me find their career.
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: Second wind.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: Find me on Insta or through my new Facebook group, second Wind wind academy, where I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions you know, I often find with those who do that dual career and at that point, semi-professional, continuing to study and trying to get an understanding.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: You know, as we progress through the season, as those next levels become more and more tangible, the I'll say, the traditional career path in your instance the teaching becomes this, that becomes part-time, that becomes the past time and the eye sort of moves away from it.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like for you, you, you were able to maintain that, but the challenge was making time for both yeah.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: So it's funny, like you say, looking back on it now and probably knowing what we both know now in terms of having uh, the study outside of rugby was perfect for someone I mean probably most people at that age where they get quite obsessed with their sport by having.
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: I know there's a guy, um dan has, that speaks of uh having multiple canvases and he'll often encourage he works with Penrith Panthers and he's worked with a lot of other sports people.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: Sean Johnson is one of our best league players and what he said really resonated with me about a year ago and this is looking back in hindsight now as well was by having, say, a study or something else to focus and concentrate on, you're able to completely switch off and put your time and be present there.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: And I remember when I started to things started to kick off with rugby.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: The coach said to me like you need something to switch off, like I'd train, study, video, um, watch rugby, like I was non-stop and I didn't necessarily know how to switch off and uni back then in hindsight was exactly probably what I needed and when it became full-time rugby and I didn't have necessarily something to to lean back on or have another way to express myself.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: When I didn't play well or perform, it felt like the end of the world, like I couldn't joke around in the locker room.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: I wasn't as liked by my friends that didn't care, um, just people that you thought cared about.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: You apparently wouldn't like me anymore and and it's just amazing how, when you don't have another canvas or a secondary thing to put your time and attention to, how it can actually massively impact your well-being and also your performance in that singular, I guess, type focus.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: It is so true, and there are awesome studies out there that can empirically prove the benefit of having that second canvas helps.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Helps individuals perform better as athletes, help them reach that peak performance and, like you say, sort of manage the level of obsession because they have to be distracted on something else, and you can see that it really works yeah, absolutely.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: It's um, it's funny when things are there, uh, without you consciously putting them there and doing that, and I think you're just having, like you said, that distraction is massive.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: Obviously, we want to be able to sit with things and absorb and accept and reflect, but we also also need to have other things put in place, so we've got multiple ways of expressing ourselves and not putting all of our identity in one focus.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: So as you became a professional rugby player, to what extent did you start to put all your identity into that single?
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: I am a professional rugby player in 2012 I I made, uh, the auckland blues, which was the childhood team I always wanted to play for, and at that point that was like full noise, like rugby is everything kind of situation and and that was when, without even consciously knowing at the time, I put a lot into into that and my identity and how important even training to me if I didn't train well.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: So the things I could control again coming from and probably again more so in my head was I didn't know a huge amount of rugby.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: I'm playing with all these All Blacks and amazing rugby players that have played it their whole life and played professionally for years.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: So what can I do really well at fitness and this, that and the other and would do really well in those aspects, which were pretty, I guess, black and white in a way, whereas the rugby side of the things I wouldn't say I struggled.
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: I just didn't believe that I knew enough.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: So I put a whole lot of time into it and if things didn't go my way, you know I was a failure and this, that and the other.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: So that year I found really challenging.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: We had coaches that were a newish group and awesome in hindsight and I'm friends with today but maybe weren't necessarily the best people managers, and we had a lot of new boys coming into the system at that point and a lot of the feedback.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: We're constantly focusing on our MOSs, which the psychologist from Counties Manicow would talk about our moments of shit, and he's like against it, he's like we should just focus on moments of perfection and that's a really counterintuitive sort of argument or thought process, but he's like we focus on that and he's got a big reasoning behind it and that year there wasn't much of that.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: It was always what can I improve or what can he improve.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: This is what you did wrong and I think that really weighed on me at a young age where I probably needed a little bit more support and guidance and to focus on the more positive side of things.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: To your point.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: Throughout your early career, academically and sporting or athletically you received positive reinforcement, positive support that guided you, that helped you shift sports, that helped you select subjects or at least career paths through university, and so that is quite a shift for you to move from, I guess, the more positive nurturing reinforcement towards one that is perhaps a bit more punitive and a bit more focusing on the negative aspects rather than the strengths yeah, absolutely.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: Even at counties we had a coach named tana umanga who was allblack captain, and he was an incredible coach and you realize, moving forward as your career goes on, how amazing he was at.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: He'll touch base with every player once a day, whether it just be a hello how's your weekend, how's your day, how you feeling.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: And he was also amazingly and I wouldn't I don't even want to say amazingly positive.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: He was just incredible at telling you what you did really well, telling you what you can work on and just making you feel like there was always a clear direction.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: And he went away feeling good, regardless of I'm not going to select you this week because James is, at this point in time, a better attacking player, but next week I'm going to pick you for the defensive side of things and this, that and the other.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: And he was always so honest and he knew that there wasn't mincing of words, but there was care behind words, with always something either to improve or something that went well.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: And again, that was probably another huge part of why I was so keen and wanted to keep progressing.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: So you're right.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: By going away from that again, you're making me think of this more so now than I ever had before.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: That that would be a really big impact in terms of so used to having that positive reinforcement, to not having it necessarily at all yeah, yeah, I can, it is.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: It is that shift and well, as you look, as your career continued then professionally, well, obviously it wasn't completely smooth sailing, uh, in in terms of where things came.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: But you know what was your professional career like?
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: How did that really sort of shape you?
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: It was interesting in hindsight because the first sort of half of it was, you know all this probably identity in terms of without rugby or without this, I don't know who I am to.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: I had so many injuries throughout my career to the point where I had two little broken bones in my fingers that were badly broken, just because I had surgery on them.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: And I went from playing super rugby against Australia, new Zealand, south Africa to I'm out for a season to you need to perform well in this next season to get a contract, to breaking another finger, to being like what's going on?
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: I just can't even go into rugby field without falling apart.
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: So then I went to the UK and wanted to reinvigorate my career there and then, as I'm sort of leaving, get there in the cold, I find out I've got arthritis in those two fingers and at that point I was like I can't enjoy this anymore because it hurts physically to catch a ball, to pass it, the real basic part of the game.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: I can't do without discomfort or pain and I sort of masked it for a year and a half over there in the UK until I finally got them fused to take the pain away, but I didn't open up enough or talk to people enough about it.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: So I got to the point where I was so low and because I was so low, I ended up getting four concussions in that season to the point where they're, like, you know, no more rugby for the foreseeable future.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: And at that point I was like man, like I'm 26, 27.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: This is where I'm supposed to be peaking and I'm just declining and I just can't enjoy this anymore.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: And that was a pretty daunting time and prospect because I didn't know what was next.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: I was super fortunate that I had some support around me at the club when I finally did talk about an open up and they were able to get me into this interim director of rugby role in mill hill school up in north london and and I loved that and dove into that but it was only a short time contract and eventually, after about a year off off rugby, went back and played semi-pro in New Zealand, back to counties Manukau and told myself, you know, like if I get another concussion or a serious injury, that's me done, like there's just a great opportunity.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: They reach out to me, I'll see how we go.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: And yeah, again, there's this similar sort of process that followed that, but that was that time in the UK that I really struggled with, for sure.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: Going thinking about that time in the UK, thinking about that low point you spoke about, that it would have been better had you opened up sooner.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: Why didn't you open up sooner?
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: I was fortunate.
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: There was a guy who'd come to Saracens at the time who was released from a club in Scotland and he was two years younger than me, a year younger than me, a year or two years younger than me and he was going through the process of this might be my last opportunity I don't know if I'll be playing again and he was sort of spiraling and he was a great sort of sounding board in a way that we both did, probably in a in a bad way at a time where you don't know any better.
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: So you go and have a few beers together and you distract yourself without properly talking about it openly and um, free of any sort of distraction.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: Um, so he was great in the fact that we had something to share, but we probably spiraled in the wrong direction without truly diving into things and I guess it's probably pride and not knowing any better at that time as well.
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: I have to pretend and I don't want to sound like a wuss in front of my teammates and the coaches got me over here and paying me and the idea is that I'll be replacing a really strong player that's been there for 10 years.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: The following year after I've had this little and I'm just like I feel like a failure, like how can I truly deal with this?
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: And if I open up, then they're just going to send me home and I'm not going to get an opportunity.
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: So I was in this weird sort of balance of is this really where it's at?
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: Like this can't be the end, um and I don't want anybody to think ill of me um.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: So it was a tricky little transition there, sure?
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: that I mean that is a really tough period.
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: I know there are for many athletes going through those types of periods.
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: Self-doubt and almost a fear of opening up is going to quite literally put you on the plane home.
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: What changed?
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: What changed to enable you to open up and almost face that fear?
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: I think it was again.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: I've had so many strange blessings in disguise and I think having the concussions probably forced me to to stop.
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: Like it's again.
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: You've got one brain and yeah, you can't really mess around with that and with the fingers I probably would have kept going and going until you know who knows how dangerous it could have got in terms of my mentality.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: But having that forced, I had to step back.
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: I couldn't do contact training.
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: I had more time on my hands so I'd have more conversations.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: We had a professional development officer there.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: There was a coach that was super supportive and he had I don't know.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: At the time he told me he had lost a friend to suicide.
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: And again, I wasn't at that point I would say that I was pretty depressive.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: I would have been close to being classed as depressed at that state and he saw something he could tell in my demeanor that I wasn't right and I guess it wasn't necessarily me opening up.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: He would come to me and would ask questions and show real interest and what's the plan, what's next, and this, that and the other, and he allowed me to open up and I still was pretty closed off and then he kind of pointed me in the direction of another guy there and the professional development guy was hey, talk to Jones, he's a psychologist as well, can talk to you about what's going on.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: Opportunities afterwards.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: At that point he spoke about meditation.
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: I got into that and then, well, look, we've got this relationship with the school.
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: Have you thought about getting involved in a school or coaching?
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: And I was like, yeah, relationship with the school, had you thought about getting involved in a school or coaching?
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: And I was like yeah, and again, had a bit of a push and they guided me, um, which was magic.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: So again, I just have been very, very fortunate at the right times, with the right people around me to to push and guide me in the right direction.
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: I love the fact someone came, but someone was there who, like you say, say, allowed you to open up, created the space for you to feel comfortable, to speak about how you're feeling and be able to use that time away from the game.
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: Well, what do you think the?
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: It's the idea of you going coaching, asking you how you thought about coaching, why do you think that was something that was proposed to you?
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: it's amazing, the people that come to you in times in life when you need them and why, and I imagine they and again they've been reasonable rugby players themselves.
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: They've played at a reasonable level, some higher than others, but they'd, again, without consciously knowing at the time they'd been through that transition phase and I was just so in my head and in such a down spiral not spiral, just a poor state I mentally wasn't myself, I didn't have that same energy that I had and they probably saw opportunities.
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: Sorry times that they went through were quite similar in terms of that transition and I guess, just looking, looking back, the gratitude I have for them again, you're bringing a lot to service here in terms of things I haven't thought about, probably enough and I don't want to reach out, but, um, yeah, I think it was just probably right place, right time around, the right people and again, no one I didn't ask for help.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: They had the kindness and compassion to come to me and ask questions.
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: I suppose and that again is something I'm learning as I'm getting older is it's the questions, are the things that evoke true feelings and direction.
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: My brother's amazing at that as well.
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, again, in hindsight, now that you bring these things up.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: I would love to tap into their brains and find out how and why and what they recognize.
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: But yeah, just grateful for for what they did at that time yeah, again that right moment, the right time it's.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: I mean it is great and you should reach out to them.
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: You should definitely reach out to them that's it.
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: There you go, the folks that are listening now, and they recognize the impact the positive impact that they had on you as well.
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: I guess it's never too late to realize no, no.
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: But at what point did you then start to think okay, I've reached the top that I'm going to reach here and I need to start thinking, or at least start acting, on what happens next.
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: What was that moment for you?
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: even when I went to this interim director of rugby role, which was was awesome.
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: And then I continued with the school, worked a little bit with the sports academy and it was kind of in a teacher's assistant type role in the UK and I was looking into doing what over there was the PGCE, which is the equivalent of diploma of teaching postgraduate course to get into become a teacher, and I was sort of flirting with the school sponsor me to allow me to work and study and perhaps even support the payment there.
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: And again that time I got reached out to with the rugby and I even support the payment there.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: And again that time I got reached out to with the rugby and I was like, okay, one more crack went to rugby, didn't play very well, been a long time since I played and and sort of just got by the season and was well aware that it wasn't my best season.
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: So I sort of at the time with my age and I was like you know, if an opportunity like Japan came about where they're playing 10 to 12 games a season, I'll be open to talking about that, but that's probably I'm not too interested to go back to the UK.
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to start thinking about life after rugby now and I was still pretty confused.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: So I reached out to a professional development lady who's a good friend of mine, who had been with us in that team since I was 18 19 with the academy, and she she was like you know, we've got four sessions, um, you've got four sessions free to go see a psychologist like a?
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: Um, not necessarily a sports one, but a psychologist for this mental health plan that we have with rugby, and hadn't known about that.
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: So I was like yeah, okay, and I was sort of what do I do?
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: Do I, yeah, do I really chase this rugby thing and put everything into that, which, again, is a little bit out of my control, because, the playing being done, what do I do, this teaching?
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: And I just, it's amazing how caught up in my head from what even you could probably recognize, is just go apply for the teaching, and if anything happens with the rugby, it happens.
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: If not, you've got the teaching.
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: But I couldn't think that clearly, um, so he was really basic and and told me, go ahead, just go through the application, like what, what's?
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: It's gonna lose.
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: And I kind of at that time had that feeling again where I was like rugby's, not everything, like I've got this.
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: And I was going through the interview process and um was getting the next and I was like, look, I felt like I was doing the right thing for the first time in a long time and got into the university.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: But then the Japan opportunity came up and such a unique experience and opportunity that I took that and played there for two years and that was the moment I think that was the real change in my mentality.
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: Where it wasn't, I didn't have this.
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: My whole identity wasn't on playing anymore.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: I went to a place where rugby wasn't huge and didn't feel like you had the same perceived pressures, but I just lost rugby potentially and I was moving on to the real life.
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: So this was an hour bonus and I was able to just let go and play some of my best rugby, meet two of my best friends and many other really good friends and just let go of all this pressure and self-imposed expectations.
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: I could just release that and I started to understand what acceptance meant and what could be achieved if you play a little bit more free.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: And it was a shame it happened so late, but it was, yeah, two very enjoyable years of my life and and I ended up having another retirement after that, coincidentally, but um, it made rugby more fun at that period of time yeah, and that that sense of being free is is so important, and I think for so many athletes we find it, or it's found at the end of the career.
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: It's found when it's like oh, I should have been doing this ages ago, I'd have been even better.
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: Oh, I enjoyed it.
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: So true, so true.
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: You'd already applied for the teaching.
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: Did you start it whilst you were in Japan, or was it something?
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: you just put on hold.
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, put on hold.
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: So that was again New Zealand.
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: I don't think they still have it.
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: Which is strange is the diploma is full-time.
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: There's no online option or correspondence.
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: So by getting the Japan opportunity, I think that came about sort of as I was going to be starting uni.
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: So it was just can I put it on hold?
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: And you know, do the Japan opportunity and I'll come back and do the diploma eventually.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: And yeah, after Japan came back and that PD the professional development 80, professional development 80, encouraged us all to try different things.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: And again, it's funny how many times I've gone around in circles to come back to where I am now.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: I could have had it done so long ago.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: But, um, she's like you know, just, you're finishing rugby, you've got some good connections, go and see what real estate's like.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, I can never do that anyways, would go along, do that in my pd hours.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: And then decided to give that a go.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: And then my final contract came up.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: Um six months into that I was, oh, this is all right, this is kind of cool.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: I'm in a place where I play a lot of rugby and I've got a lot of good friends here and it's more about relationships and you'll get business roommates and it felt like a nice place to be.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: And then an opportunity with Fiji came up which was super unique and rare and I just couldn't say no to that.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: And, funnily enough, going through everything I'd gone through in terms of, I guess, professional or personal development and growth, I probably got the most in that season with the Fijian boys because they taught me what life's really about Gratitude and being truly present and slowing down, truly live with this sort of multiple canvas idea where rugby is like this 80 minute thing where you just go out there and you're willing to to die to play this game of rugby and then inside and outside and around it, you're just enjoying life, like everything you see in life is there's beauty, there's gratitude, there's so much simplicity and that was the most magic year for me from a personal growth standpoint.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: Um, so, following that, you sort of on this high.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: You know that rugby's done.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: I was.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: I was more than happy to accept that it was done after that, but still went through this difficult transition period where it's been two years now and and I'm now I know I feel like I'm in the right place.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: I'm doing the right thing, but it still took me two years following.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: Well, you knew at 18, but you've got there now, right exactly keep coming back yeah, yeah, but it is.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: That thread is the bit that I think is is really interesting is it was there, but there are.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: These are the things that have certainly shaped you, and you certainly are probably a better educator as a result of those experiences.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: What I do find fascinating, just through your story, is where you've played rugby and how, just through little phrases, you've described the differences in how the game is approached and how your focus on that game has been through to you know, all the way through.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: Today, in Fiji, where it is almost a, it's used as a celebration within life on on the field, and and so it it is, like you say, one of many canvases that that you actually hold whilst you're through life, and, and I think that's such a great philosophy that you've brought through yeah, thank you, ron.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: Like you say, reflecting, I couldn't imagine looking back, going from 18 doing the study, doing my diploma, teaching and then teaching kids from that age, like knowing what I know and the experience and challenges I've gone through.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: Now, and even now you're still trying to sort of take bits and pieces from teachers and how can you best model and be the best version of yourself to be a better educator and a role model?
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: And, yeah, um, it's, it's funny because, again, hindsight can can really stab you in the foot at times, but in this case it has been a blessing in disguise and it's.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: It's taken a long time to to get to where I've probably always known I want to be.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: Necessarily, if it's forever, it's, it's forever.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: If it's not, I'm more than happy to, to pivot and try other things, but it's something that I feel like I need to do and I'm doing it probably at the right time due to the experiences I've had and the lessons I've learned I look at our life, certainly our careers, as I use my google maps analogy where we can place a destination, but there are so many routes to get to that destination and there's a lot of richness in being able to start by.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: I'll take the bus and then actually I'll get off, I'll do the train, maybe I'll walk for a little bit, and whilst we can all reach that destination be it teaching, educating, passing on knowledge the routes to get there can be so varied and so interesting and so, like you said, you may have always known or, within you, always knew that teaching destination was there, but you've had the opportunity to take so many different paths and that's such a wonderful route to get to where you are today.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: It's a great lesson to learn too, like you hear that cliche from early, early age.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: Now, so that's the journey and you don't necessarily know what that means until you've gone through multiple journeys, like you say, because, yeah, like you've like, the destination again is, if you think about sporting terms, is almost the outcome, and if we really think about the journey, it's the process and the values that we hold and while we go about each action and each step in each moment.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: So if we don't have all that, then then what is it really about?
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: Like who wants to get somewhere quickly and and not enjoy how they got there.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: And I guess I, after rugby again, I was kind of like maybe I do real estate and it'll just help me get into a financial position and I wanted to get places quickly and it's taken me some time to slow down and be like anything that's happened to me in the past, none of it's happened quickly.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: Like some of it's taken a very long time, but nothing's happened overnight and the things that feel really good to reflect on in the conversations that we're having are things that took the most work.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: So it's this weird paradox where we want the easy stuff but doing the challenging tasks and the things we don't want to do is what makes getting to a destination again is going to constantly change, because we've got multiple destinations to arrive at is the thing that is the most, I guess, um enjoyable and most rewarding part.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: And look, I've held you way longer than I said I would.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: But a few more questions, because it's just interesting having this form of conversation with you, but also the I guess the thinking live whilst we're going through the chat as well, is great.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: Um, you know, for now, this, your, your I'll say most recent retirement, just in case there's a master's that's going to kick in late but in your most, what have you found to be the most challenging part for you?
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: that's probably going from rugby and sporting environments.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: You've got like a structure.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: You know where training are, what time, the the little bits and pieces to set yourself apart are extras that you fit in between these structured areas.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: And I found it really challenging um being in charge of of um coming up with my own, because I feel like with guidance, with structure, I can attack things a lot more succinctly without oh, maybe I should have done that.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: And you can go off on all these different tangents, procrastinate, find all these different reasons to not do certain things.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: But when you've got a structure in place, it's a lot more simple to just go out there and attack, and I found that really challenging.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: And then you sort of, probably without knowing it, everybody's going to training to try to achieve the same goals, like you're going there to enjoy each other's company and work hard and train hard to try to win something.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: Everybody's got this incredible again.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: It's the journey that makes it fun.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: But we've got this incredible goal and we've all got this mindset that is quite aligned.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: You go into the real world and you've got complaining is normal.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: You've got people willing to talk badly about someone else.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: You've got this person's wanting to get this thing or do that and that's that, and there's all these different directions and you're just like, oh man.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: I was incredibly privileged to be in a position where I was going to work, which again never felt like work with mates, regardless if I had a really serious injury or was at my best.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: I was going to work and achieve, work towards something with guys that are supporting because they're doing the same thing and want the best out of me because it's going to help them and vice versa, and not having that was was pretty enlightening and, um, challenging.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: So I've, so you're a lot more aware of teams that you get yourself into and who you surround yourself with after after sport yeah, yeah, that's that's interesting.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: Interesting hearing about that.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: Um, I suppose it it moves me on to.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: So, when you look back at your career and the journey that that you've enjoyed and the people around you, you know based on your experience, what guidance would you give to someone else looking to prepare themselves best for their sort of second wind in line?
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: I think what you're doing is amazing because in that, you're in that space where just giving people opportunity to have another canvas or explore different possibilities and switch off from something that can be so obsessive, and I think, regardless of like you say, you go in different directions and there's so many paths potentially to get there.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: There's so many paths potentially to get there.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: But I think I was probably fortunate that I had a degree and also that I knew that I wanted to do teaching at some point in time, regardless of how far away it is, and I was super fortunate that I got in gym, was able to more or less complete my degree before rugby fully kicked off.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: So and again, I don't think it necessarily needs to, but, all right, I'm going to go get a degree or I'm going to do this you start with there's so many ways you can study now as well, like am I interested in this?
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: I'm going to do that.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: Shall I give this a crack?
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: Just sign up to a paper and try that, and it's just having something to distract your mind.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: That's completely unrelated to to the game.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: And again, as we talk about hindsight, I, I did at times have it, but I wished I had the degree and I knew afterwards I wanted to do the diploma of teaching.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: I would have loved to have been more proactive and maybe done the odd papers to accumulate a diploma in psychology or little courses here and there, because, as this conversation has made me really aware of, when I was studying and I had the rugby, and then when I signed up to study again a decade later or more and then had the rugby, I was a different person and it's really hard to tell someone to do that and you can put things in front of them.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I just feel like there's more opportunities now to do the online studies, to try different courses, and again, I'm thinking more from a study perspective is go and try building with some mates and what have you, but it's just having something else.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: That's not your identity, isn't just focused in on your sport.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: Baden.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: That's really good and I just want to say it's been great chatting to you, um, you know, through this conversation, understanding your journey, and I think that's a a great again, a great piece of insight in terms of, you know, preparation and what you're really talking about to me there for someone to think about is is the canvas, is to take that concept of multiple canvases and, whilst they can have one on sport, which may certainly guide them and open them up to many opportunities, it is very much a case of trying to keep another one going um and practice different types of of a painting or drawing or whatever creative thing that that goes alongside that particular canvas, and I think that's a great piece of advice for for people to listen to and to sort of take on board from today yeah, it's um again, it's something you've really helped invoke in me in terms of reflecting on things maybe I haven't thought about in a long time and and again probably is showing in what I'm doing now, where I've got multiple roles.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: So if I feel like I haven't performed well in one or I'm a little bit lethargic in another, I've got something else to do an hour later or and you find probably at first you can think I don't know if I can juggle like full-time sport with doing some papers and you'll find every reason to talk yourself out of things.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: But I guess, as we're both aware of the, when you actually dive into it there's this sense of probably greater purpose, because when you, when you take a little bit of that purpose out, of that singular focus which is our sport and and put it somewhere else, you just feel a lot lighter.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: Eh yeah, yeah, I think that's well said.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: Baden.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: Well said, it definitely is.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to say thank you so much for uh, for for taking your time, giving your time today for this conversation.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: I think it's been absolutely brilliant.
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: So listen, thanks very much once more.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: No, ryan, thanks so much.
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: It was amazing how much you've brought to light for me and how probably meditative this was for me, so thank you so much for having me.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Second Wind podcast.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers.
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 3: If you're looking for, career clarity for your next step.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 3: Make sure you check out secondwindio for more information or to book a consultation with me.
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design, Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: That's all from me.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: Take it easy Until next time.