Latest / The Inspired Stories Podcast / Paul Gordon: Insights from 50 years of legal service to the senior living community.

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Paul Gordon: Insights from 50 years of legal service to the senior living community. · The Inspired Stories Podcast

0:04
Welcome to another edition of the Inspired Stories podcast,
0:08
where leaders share their experiences so we can learn from
0:11
their successes and be inspired by how they overcome adversity.
0:15
My name is Anthony Kotaspodi and today's guest is Paul A Gordon.
0:20
He is a partner and the senior housing and Care practice leader
0:24
at Hanson Bridget LLP. They are a California grown law
0:29
firm with over 200 attorneys. They are known for focusing on
0:34
community impact, innovative solutions, and they have offices
0:37
in San Francisco, LA, San Diego, Sacramento, Fresno, and San
0:43
Rafael. Their services span senior
0:46
housing and care, healthcare, law, real estate, and more, and
0:50
they have been recognized by Chambers USA for outstanding
0:53
work. Paul himself has decades of
0:57
experience working with senior housing providers since 1975 and
1:01
was described by Chambers USA as a godfather in the space.
1:06
He is the author of Seniors Housing and Care Facilities
1:10
Development, Business and Operations, published by the
1:13
Urban Land Institute, and has served as general counsel to the
1:17
American Seniors Housing Association.
1:19
He has also earned recognition in Best Lawyers.
1:23
For his work in. Litigation and Healthcare.
1:25
His background includes helping clients navigate risk,
1:29
regulatory compliance, and operational challenges in the
1:32
senior care industry. And he serves as an expert
1:35
witness and consultant in court proceedings and arbitrations
1:39
involving senior care providers. Now, before we get into all that
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AD back benefits.com. All right, back to our guest
2:26
today, partner of Hanson, Bridget Paul Gordon.
2:29
Thanks for making the time to Share your story.
2:31
Today hello, good to be here. OK, so Paul, you founded the
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senior living practice group at Hanson Bridget 50 years ago.
2:41
How did that intersection of law and senior living first come
2:46
about for you? Well, when I got to my firm, our
2:53
firm was already representing a hospital, pretty major hospital
3:00
in San Francisco, religiously based that also had a retirement
3:07
community, a pretty significant retirement community.
3:12
The main contact with that client was an estate planning
3:17
attorney. So he wasn't really into what we
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ended up doing for these clients, which is mostly
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regulatory and contract type work.
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And so I inherited it very early.
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There was another lawyer there who within one year after I got
3:35
to the firm, went on the bench as a judge.
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So naturally retired from the firm and I more or less
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inherited that practice. And it didn't really become a
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practice area for us that had any really significance until
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later when I had to start bringing in more attorneys to
3:59
help cover the workload that we had.
4:03
And that that was sort of the beginning of the practice area
4:08
for our firm. And was this when things kind of
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changed in the mid 80s that you saw this growth take place and
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you had to bring in some additional?
4:19
Yeah, there was there was a a real shift in the field or the
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yet some people say industry, some people don't like the word
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industry because it sounds too industrial, I guess.
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And so around the mid 80s, prior to the mid 80s, all of our
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clients and most of the people in the field were
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not-for-profit, often religiously based organizations
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that developed, owned and operated these communities.
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And in the mid 80s, all of a sudden, and it was rather
4:57
sudden, the for profit real estate developers got very
5:01
involved in and interested in the field.
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And part of it was that the real estate field at that time was
5:09
not doing very well and developers were looking for new
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opportunities. And and coincidental with that
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was that Marriott, you know, a major hotel operator decided to
5:23
jump into the field with both feet, the first major for profit
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organization with name recognition that got into the
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field and many followed in their footsteps.
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So it was a a real shift in orientation and it caused some
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concerns and fears. And but what was certainly
5:48
happening was there was a lot more activity.
5:52
Was the concern based around it now being mostly for profit
5:55
entities or was it? Yeah, they're they're actually
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incidents that occurred was some of the the nonprofits were
6:05
afraid that the for profits didn't have the right
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motivations, that their motivations were money and that
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quality of care would suffer and so forth.
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And in the nursing field, the for profits kind of had that
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reputation of not being as high quality as the not for profits.
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But in the senior living area, the for profits turned out to do
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really do a very nice job of it. And they were competitive and
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produced a great product. But I had one person who I went
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to a national conference and he came up to me and he said, Paul,
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I understand you're working for Marriott.
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This was a, you know, the Scions of the not-for-profit world.
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And he said to me, if you were my attorney, you would no longer
6:54
be my attorney. So it became very clear some
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people had very strong feelings about that.
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Turns out I I never did lose any clients over that and kept all
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the not-for-profit clients and continued to work with the for
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profits as well. Why do you think the senior care
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industry ended up being different at the time where the
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nursing field, the for profits had a really bad reputation, but
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it was executed differently by the for profits in senior care.
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Well, I think there's a, a big difference between the whole
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residential model of care, if you will, and of services and
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the institutional or medical model.
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And the, the nursing facilities were pursuing or continuing kind
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of the medical institutional model of services, whereas you
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couldn't really get away with doing that in the senior living
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area. Among other reasons is the, the
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in the nursing business, there is very, very heavy federal
8:03
regulation which really drives how you perform all of your
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services. Whereas in senior living, it's
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much more of an open canvas, if you will, to develop their build
8:19
your product however you want. You're not constrained by
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federal regulations and also the customer has more discretion.
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In the senior living field, they are private pay customers by and
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large. Whereas in the nursing field,
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they're being paid for through Medicare and Medicaid, which,
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you know, it's a different audience and, and the, the
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customers have, I would say fewer choices in the nursing
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area. Whereas with residential care,
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they're using their own dollars and spending them where they
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want to spend them, which means that the providers of services
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have to have a customer orientation that is pleasing to
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the customers. And you know, that's a huge
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difference. And that continues through today
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and and it will in the future. And I think we've seen nursing
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facilities or the development of new nursing facilities decline
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over the years. I'm looking back, you know, now,
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50 years, there's been a real decline in nursing and a real
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rise in residential models of senior living.
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When you say nursing, what does that mean to you?
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Well, it's one thing in my head. I just want to make sure.
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Acuity, it means more regulation.
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You know it's people associated with linoleum floors versus
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carpet, with the call lights on the outside of your room, with
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shared rooms sometimes semi private.
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Where is in the senior living field, you're dealing with
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private rooms, much more of a residential model in terms of
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just the physical plant. And you know, it looks it's more
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like housing or a hotel and and less like a hospital.
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What would you say is the breakdown of for profits versus
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non for profits in the senior living space now?
10:34
That's hard. I mean, there are.
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I think there's some organizations that maybe track
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that. From my experience, I would say
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it's about 5050. Yeah, there is.
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The nonprofits do not dominate in the way that they used to.
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You might say that in some sectors, like standalone
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assisted living, there are more for profits than nonprofits.
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In some sub sectors, like continuing care retirement
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communities, there are more nonprofits than for profits.
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So it varies based on the the sub sector in the senior living
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arena. Paul, explain in a little bit
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more detail what specifically you do for your clients.
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Well, we do a lot of things. You know, I've certainly said in
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the past, we do whatever they need us to do.
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And that's really true. But what does that mean?
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What does that end up being for our clients?
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A lot of it is regulatory work dealing with licensing issues.
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A lot of it is contract drafting, the contracts that
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they have with their customers is it is a main focus.
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Also other types of contracts, management agreements and things
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like that. Also dispute resolution.
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You know, if, if someone doesn't like the kinds of services
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they're getting or they have a dispute about a monthly fee
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increase or something like that, we will get involved with those.
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So it's, it's whatever they need and we assist with development
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too. You know, a lot of the licensing
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work is about new developments getting approved.
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And we're starting to see, I think more and more, you know,
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for decades people have been talking about the baby boomers
12:33
getting older and becoming candidates for senior living.
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And people have been talking about that for decades.
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And I think now it's finally actually happening for the first
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time. So, so, so that's a change
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that's occurring now. How is it that you guys are
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different? What sets Hanson Bridget apart
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in this space? We are very, very deeply
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embedded into the senior living space.
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We have been for a very long time.
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When I started out, a lot of people didn't even know what a
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retirement community was. They thought, oh, is it a
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retirement? Sometimes we would use, you
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know, the terminology keeps evolving, but there was a time
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when you're using words like a retirement facility and people
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thought that was some kind of a pension plan.
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You know, they didn't realize it was a physical building with,
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you know, services. And, and so, you know, the
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terminology has changed, the understanding of it has grown
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dramatically. And I think it's, you know, lay
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people understand what senior living is, but it's, it's taken
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time and a lot of exposure to get there.
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I mean, you say you're deeply embedded.
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I mean, who was it Chambers, USA, that once described you as
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a godfather in this space? I consider that nickname.
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First of all, it embarrasses me to to hear people say that,
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number one, But when somebody says that you got to put it on
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your curriculum vitae or whatever.
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But what happened was they, they were very prestigious lawyer
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directory that's pretty much international.
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They're headquartered in London. They have AUSA publication.
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And what they do is they ask you who all your clients are and
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then they call them up and talk to them and then try to write
14:40
something up about your firm or the individuals in your firm.
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And somewhere along the line, I don't know who it was or when
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they said it or what exactly they said, but somebody said
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that I am a godfather in the senior living space or something
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like that. And, and I think that, and I
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don't know who said it or, or when, you know, it's one of
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those things you just go, wow, that was nice.
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But. Now it's part of your folklore.
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It was kind of a fluke. It was kind of a fluke, but it's
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it's the kind of thing you put in your resume or whatever any
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event that was that happened about 14 or 15 years ago.
15:27
OK, So I don't know that it's entirely justified, but I will
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say that my book that I wrote, which was by the time it got to
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the third edition, it was over 600 pages long with 1000 pages
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of forms like contract forms and things like that, that were on
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ACD ROM with the then you know, this technology.
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And so it was quite, it was quite a substantial contribution
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to the knowledge, I guess, or the field at the time, a lot of
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people, ULI Urban Land Institute was the publisher.
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They were pretty well known national organization in the
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real estate field. And nobody had really written a
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book about senior living in the real estate field of any
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substance. And, and then when my book came
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out, I think that established me as in in some way in the field,
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so that and so. This book was directed
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specifically towards the real estate professionals, not
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towards the people that were kind of already in the space.
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Well, it, it's, I would say that I probably got more attention
16:45
from real estate professionals because what had happened was
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because of the, the dip in the real estate market at the time,
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there was this group, actually, there's a fellow named Ken
17:04
Harney, who was a syndicated newspaper columnist in something
17:08
like 85 newspapers around the country.
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And it was a real estate column that he had.
17:17
And he had a, as a side business.
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He and his wife had a, a educational lecturer type of
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business that would have speakers go around the country
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and give presentations at various conferences.
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They had, they had a conference business.
17:37
And so they, I, I got in with them rather early after I
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started seeing them do conferences on senior living.
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So I spoke at a lot of their conferences, and then at some
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point a publisher who at the time it was John Wiley and Sons,
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contacted them and said, do you have anybody who could write a
18:01
book for us on this subject? And so they contacted me and I
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said yes, that's how the book opportunity happened.
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And the 1000 pages of, I don't know, forms, documents, were
18:16
these like contracts were what? What was in that?
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Well, the contracts were were kind of a supplement to the
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book, but yeah, they were mostly contracts on different subjects
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or forms, you know, intake forms, application forms, things
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like that. But the book itself was about
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everything from development to operations to regulation,
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finance, a lot of chapters, you know, 600 pages with a lot of
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footnotes of other sources to backup.
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I mean, I didn't want to just say what my opinion was about
18:56
everything. I wanted to have a site and
18:59
authority for just about everything I said in these in
19:03
this book. And it's so there were about
19:05
1000 footnotes of citing to other people's articles and and
19:11
whatnot. Aside from what you've already
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described as you know that real estate dip back in the mid 80s
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that led to the influx of for profits coming into the senior
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care space, what's the other biggest change you've seen
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happen in the industry in the 40 or 50 years that you've been
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involved? Well, certainly the rise of
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assisted living as a product type is, is a major change
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that's happened. It started really in the 90s,
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but it is continued very strong since then.
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And as I said before, I think there's a lot of for profits who
19:55
are in that space and what it has become is an alternative in
20:03
most customers minds to the dreaded nursing facility.
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There was a time, I remember many years ago, where somebody
20:13
at the AARP decided to do a a poll or a survey.
20:19
And they said that of the people they survey surveyed, 75% said
20:25
that they would rather die than move into a nursing facility,
20:30
which was kind of a shocking survey result.
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But, you know, when given the actual choice, people don't
20:41
choose death. But they say that in response to
20:44
a survey. And and so, you know, nursing
20:50
facilities are not popular and they were not the kind of place
20:55
that somebody would want to go to.
20:58
Whereas the whole point of senior living facilities is to
21:03
have a place that somebody does want to go to, does want to
21:07
spend their discretionary dollars to get something that's
21:12
attractive. And that could mean, you know, a
21:15
nice place to live, great services.
21:19
You know, it's a real positive thing.
21:23
Yeah. You wouldn't be attracted to it
21:25
in your 40s or 50s or maybe even 60s.
21:29
But when you start getting into your 70s and 80s, it looks like
21:32
a really attractive thing to do for many people.
21:37
Others may want to stay in their single family home, but that can
21:41
lead to isolation. I think one of the it's
21:46
difficulty getting services is another thing that, you know,
21:49
being in your own home is, is, is not conducive to getting
21:55
services. But I think the main reason to
22:00
consider senior living is the socialization aspect of it.
22:08
You, you know, there's people that you can interact with and
22:12
do things. And you go to a lot of these
22:14
places and they have 50 or 80 or 100 different clubs that the
22:22
residents have formed on their own, you know, name a subject
22:26
and they're out there doing it. And I think that's a big
22:29
attraction in a lot of places in addition to getting the services
22:34
that are provided by the operator of the community.
22:39
What's maybe the biggest misstep that you see a lot of senior
22:44
care facilities make? Well, I don't know if it's a lot
22:48
anymore, but there was a time when, you know, I mentioned that
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there were a lot of people in the real estate field who wanted
22:56
to get into this field and they did.
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But the biggest mistakes that they would make is thinking that
23:03
it is a real estate business and it really is not primarily a
23:09
real estate business. It's primarily a services
23:12
business. And it's a lot closer to a hotel
23:18
type of business where you have staff that's providing services
23:23
and maybe to some degree, like, you know, a healthcare facility
23:28
where you have staff that's providing care for those who
23:32
need it. But whether it's either one of
23:36
those or both of those combined, it's not a typical landlord
23:41
tenant type of situation where the operator is just providing
23:47
shelter and nothing else really. Or maybe grounds maintenance.
23:53
That's what you get in the real estate field.
23:55
You get shelter and grounds maintenance and somebody's come
23:59
along and collect the rent and, you know, repair the roof, but
24:03
but you don't get dining, you don't get housekeeping, you
24:09
don't get recreational programs and you don't get care if you
24:13
need care. So that's really the the
24:16
distinction. And not everybody who got into
24:20
the business in the early days understood that.
24:23
And so, you know, they were, they were building buildings
24:27
that they couldn't fill or they didn't do their market research.
24:31
That's where people made mistakes.
24:33
I think most everybody in the field now that they're much,
24:37
much more sophisticated and they understand all of those
24:40
dynamics. Now that the field has become
24:45
more sophisticated, where do you see senior care going?
24:49
What are some of the trends that you think are upcoming?
24:53
You know, this is always been driven in many regards by
24:57
demographics. And in the early days when I was
25:01
involved, people were talking about the demographics.
25:04
Everybody could, could look at the demographics and say, oh,
25:08
the baby boomers are going to be old someday and they're going to
25:12
overwhelm the market for senior living, just like they've
25:17
overwhelmed every other thing that they've been involved with
25:21
over the past, you know, so many decades.
25:25
And but, and people were talking about that and in anticipation
25:29
of that, they were getting into the field thinking this is going
25:32
to be a big deal someday. And for a long time it wasn't.
25:37
I mean, there's been ups and downs, but but now I think that
25:43
actually the baby boomers are getting to that age where they
25:49
are going to create and are creating a lot of demand.
25:53
And I think some people are a little worried that the
25:56
inventory of communities is not sufficiently large to
26:01
accommodate everybody. And that I mean, there's maybe
26:06
different reasons for that. There may be a short term
26:11
difficulty in doing new developments because of scarcity
26:15
of capital or because of inflation or people having
26:19
trouble selling their homes in order to get their equity out
26:23
and use it to get into a senior living community.
26:26
Or, you know, some people don't have savings at all.
26:30
And so, you know, when they're retiring, so they don't have a
26:34
a, you know, a paycheck coming in regularly.
26:37
So I mean, there are a lot of reasons that might affect the
26:41
success going forward despite the increasing age of everyone.
26:48
But nevertheless, that demographic juggernaut, if you
26:55
will, is unavoidable. It's real, it's and it's big and
27:01
there's some percentage of that demand that is it is going to
27:06
carry through and it is going to direct the growth in the senior
27:12
living field. And so do you see the supply
27:17
being able to keep up with the demand?
27:20
I think it will eventually, you know, where there's a need,
27:23
what, what you tend to see is short term, the, the, there
27:28
might be a, a, a stretch. I mean, we've been through a lot
27:32
and we've been through COVID. You know, we've been through a
27:37
recession in 2008, 2009 and in in each of those cases, there
27:44
was some deprivation that was caused by those outside events
27:50
that that made life a little bit tough in the short term.
27:55
And then what ends up happening usually is there some kind of a
28:01
snap back? You know, the pressure builds
28:05
and you have an increasing demand after you've had this
28:09
period of scarcity and the increasing demand kind of helps
28:14
you catch up to what you lost during the lean times.
28:19
And you know, I think that if we're in a lean time right now,
28:23
I don't think we really are. It's very short lived and and,
28:28
and not very significant, but you know, there there will be a
28:32
rebound from it. And I think that there's going
28:35
to be vigorous growth in the field, you know, in the near
28:39
term. When you say that we're in a
28:42
lean time now, are you talking just broader macroeconomic
28:47
conditions or specific to the senior care space?
28:50
Well, I think it's broader. It, it has to do with
28:53
development, you know, invest money that is available to
29:00
invest in new construction. And of course it varies from one
29:04
locale to another. There are other things like
29:07
inflation. I mean, we've had some inflation
29:10
for years. There was a long period of years
29:13
where the, the very idea of the time value of money didn't
29:19
exist. The the time value of money was
29:22
0 for for a lot of years or very close to 0, you know, 1%.
29:28
Well, that's changed. I mean, I saw the other day that
29:32
we had inflation as high as 8% not too long ago, and, you know,
29:37
compared to 1%, that's a huge difference.
29:41
And that affects things like, you know, the cost of lumber and
29:45
the cost of Labor. Labor is another thing.
29:48
There's a lot of challenges. You see the articles all over
29:51
the place about challenges in the construction industry to the
29:56
availability of Labor to get the job done.
30:00
So, you know, all of these factors, you know, do have an
30:05
effect on the development cycle. As you think about your role
30:11
there as senior housing and care practice leader, Paul, what's an
30:16
innovative strategy that you've introduced to help clients stay
30:21
ahead of some of the changes? Well, I don't know that I have
30:27
done anything to help clients stay ahead of the changes.
30:31
I think that mostly what I have done is stay very involved with
30:38
what the clients are doing and trying to make sure that I
30:45
understand their business and then try to assist them with
30:52
what they need to get their job done.
30:56
I'm not, you know, directing them as to what to do.
31:00
I am helping them get to where they want to go.
31:04
Now, you know, some of your questions.
31:08
He sent over a few sample questions and as some of them
31:14
had to do with, you know, how do we, I got to let you ask the
31:18
question. But but one of the things that
31:22
that that we try to do and that I try to do is to understand the
31:27
client's business instead of just understanding the law.
31:33
And you know, there are a lot of attorneys around, I would dare
31:38
say who they focus on the law to sometimes to the exclusion of
31:43
what their client's business is or really understanding it.
31:47
And an example I'll I'll give is it you go and talk to lawyers
31:53
all over and you will see that they go to conferences of other
31:58
lawyers. And you know, I've been to a few
32:01
of those, but it's the, the law association, fill in the blank,
32:08
you know, the American Bar Association or the American
32:12
Health Lawyers or Health Law Association.
32:15
These are associations of lawyers and they put on seminars
32:20
and they have committees and they do a lot of stuff.
32:23
What we have done from day one, my firm was already doing this
32:26
when I got there is they were going to and in fact they helped
32:31
found some organizations. There were organizations of our
32:36
clients are my firm was involved in establishing what was then
32:41
called the California Association of Homes for the
32:45
Aging. Now it's called leading age both
32:47
at the state and national levels and ever since we've been
32:52
involved with those organizations which are
32:55
organizations of senior living owners and operators.
33:01
So I think that focusing on what the clients are doing,
33:07
understanding their business and then obviously keeping abreast
33:12
of what's going on in the legal field, in the regulatory field
33:15
and then applying one to the other, that's what we do and
33:19
that's what we do best. And that's what maybe
33:23
distinguishes us from other lawyers who don't have those
33:26
deep roots with the clients and the associations of clients.
33:33
And really understanding the business side of things.
33:35
Yep, right. I know in general, and I'm sure
33:39
you've heard this before, a big complaint about attorneys is
33:41
they just say no to everything, right?
33:43
I just CYA like, you know, and I, I think what you're
33:48
describing here, if I'm hearing you correctly, Paul, is you
33:51
understand the regulatory, the legal side of things as well as
33:54
anybody, but you also understand their business goals too.
33:59
And so part of what you're able to do is figure out how to bring
34:03
those together. Right.
34:05
And, and to try to help clients accomplish what they want to
34:10
accomplish, sometimes you have to tell them, look, if you do it
34:14
this way, it's risky. There's a little bit of risk on
34:19
because somebody could say that that what you're doing is not,
34:25
you know, raises a question about this law or that law.
34:29
You know, we don't advise clients to break the law, but we
34:33
have to tell them when there is some risk in what they do.
34:37
If we just tell them no every time, nothing is going to get
34:41
done. So, so the idea is to try to
34:47
help the client reach their goals, figure out how to do it
34:52
lawfully and, you know, in compliance with all of the
34:56
applicable laws. But you know, you have to get to
35:01
yes at some point and you know, and that may that doesn't mean
35:07
it's carte blanche where it's a free for all, but but you do
35:12
have to be willing to to help the client accomplish their
35:20
goals. Now, professionally, I know
35:24
something else that you are doing is serving as an expert
35:28
witness in federal and state courts.
35:31
What kinds of things are you being called on to testify
35:35
about, Paul? Well, you know, I've had some
35:39
cases that are just like personal injury cases where
35:43
somebody, a resident is injured or they get locked out of the
35:49
building and they die from hypothermia was one of them.
35:55
You know, they're, they're issues like that.
35:57
And then there's just contract issues where somebody thinks
36:01
that their contract gives them the right to own the unit that
36:05
they're living in, where it doesn't really do that at all.
36:09
But they found a lawyer to try to make that argument.
36:13
A lot of times it's about the standard of care.
36:18
And, you know, the example that I like to give, this happens a
36:21
lot. Is there different kinds of
36:23
senior living communities? Some of them are regulated, some
36:27
of them are not. Some of them offer only shelter.
36:32
Some of them offer shelter plus housekeeping.
36:35
Some of them offer shelter plus housekeeping, plus monitoring
36:41
your health care and intervening in the event that you have a
36:47
need, an unmet need. Well, if you're in an assisted
36:51
living facility that monitors your needs and intervenes when
36:57
you have an unmet need and there are regulations that require
37:01
that they do that, there's an obligation, there's a standard
37:05
of care that you have to intervene in some way.
37:08
But if that same person is in independent living where there's
37:12
no regulation, there's no contract promise to provide care
37:17
or to monitor whether you need care, the the obligations are
37:21
completely different. And I'm telling you, plaintiffs
37:25
attorneys don't like to acknowledge that distinction.
37:32
And sometimes families don't either.
37:35
And the families will go to the place that has the lowest
37:39
monthly fee because even though they know that mom or dad have
37:45
some needs or are likely to have some needs coming up very soon.
37:49
And sometimes, you know, it's dementia or it could be a
37:52
physical ambulation issue. It could be a lot of things,
37:55
judgment issues, you know, inability to get back in the
37:59
building. If they get outside the
38:01
building, you know, they can't figure out how to get to the
38:04
front door and get in to where the where the receptionist is.
38:08
I mean, if somebody is in a building like that, that doesn't
38:12
monitor the person's needs or needs for care or supervision,
38:19
they're not going to get the care or supervision.
38:22
And so, you know, knowing and being able to explain to a jury
38:27
or an arbitrator or a judge what the different obligations are
38:33
that are there because of the contract that the person has
38:37
signed or the regulations that apply or don't apply to that
38:42
community or that particular property.
38:45
I mean, those are the kinds of things that I get most involved
38:49
with because I understand the law, the contracts and the and
38:54
the responsibilities of the parties.
38:56
And so who's calling you in and asking you to testify?
39:00
Is it one of your clients? Like your client is the
39:03
defendant in the case. Well, it's usually, usually I'm
39:06
not working for one of my clients.
39:09
I'm working for an attorney who has been hired, usually by an
39:15
insurance company to defend the case that's been brought against
39:20
a senior living client. It's not necessarily my senior
39:24
living client, but it is, it's this attorney's client in the
39:30
senior living field. And sometimes these attorneys
39:33
who I dare say they're, they're good lawyers and they're good
39:38
defense insurance counsel, they don't necessarily understand the
39:43
business of senior living and all the regulatory
39:47
infrastructure around that the way I do.
39:51
And so, you know, I'm, I'm pretty well qualified as an
39:55
expert and I've been designated and certified as an expert in
40:01
state and federal courts and by arbitrators and so on.
40:05
So, and with the book and all the things I've done, I have a
40:08
pretty good. And your godfather?
40:11
We don't. And I like to say that, but but
40:15
yeah, I have, I have a pretty good resume or background to
40:20
support this being an expert witness in a case like that.
40:25
And they, you know, as I say, they range from complex contract
40:29
issues to simple personal injury cases.
40:34
And this is work that you enjoy doing.
40:36
You look forward to doing more of this, Paul.
40:39
I do, I look, I really look forward to doing it because it
40:43
allows me to get into depth in an area that right now my
40:49
practice or for the many years my practice has my day carved up
40:55
into 20 different things. I'm working on, you know, a
40:59
dozen different files. And, and, you know, I gave him a
41:03
little bit of advice here, a little bit of advice there, a
41:06
little bit of troubleshooting and so on.
41:09
And being in the role as an expert witness in a litigation
41:16
matter allows you to get in depth into whatever the subject
41:21
is. You get to read a deposition all
41:25
the way through and comment on it and, and figure out where the
41:32
person being deposed is right, is wrong.
41:35
You know, is, is off base or is, is right on the point.
41:40
That's a like, to me that feels like a luxury because I don't
41:44
have that much time in, in a normal day to be able to do
41:50
that. So when I have had the
41:52
opportunity to do it, which is, you know, the fair number of
41:55
times over the years, it, it feels like a luxury.
42:00
And I feel like I'm particularly well qualified to do it.
42:05
And it, it, it's not as it's more of the contemplative thing.
42:10
And I like to write too. I'm kind of a writer at base and
42:15
I like to write a report that summarizes what the allegations
42:20
are, what the problems are with the allegations, what the
42:23
defenses are, whether they're legitimate, and so on.
42:27
So, you know, it's, it's an area where I feel like I have pretty
42:32
good qualifications and I really do enjoy doing it.
42:35
And so I want to do more in the future.
42:38
How do you do more of it? How do you get your name out
42:41
there? That's.
42:42
Hard to say. I mean, you know, there are some
42:45
it's, it's mostly word of mouth I would say and just letting
42:49
people know that that's something that I do and that I
42:51
want to do. I think it's the best way.
42:53
There are some sort of broker type organizations out there.
42:58
You can go online and look up expert witness brokers if I
43:06
don't know if that's the right word, but but they, they have a,
43:10
an inventory of somebody who could testify about any subject
43:15
in the world, you know, biochemistry, construction, you
43:20
name it, you know, they have it. They have a, a cadre of experts
43:25
that, that are available that, that they will then refer to a
43:30
defense attorney. So that's one way to do it.
43:34
I've chosen not to do that because it's so broad and I feel
43:38
like I know enough people in the senior living field where I can,
43:43
you know, have more of a focus and, and less of the telephone
43:47
directory kind of approach to things.
43:51
More signal, less noise from maybe being in some of those
43:54
directories, huh? Fair enough.
43:58
Paul, what is a serious challenge that you've had to
44:03
overcome in your life, whether it's your professional career or
44:08
your personal life? You know, that's, that's one of
44:11
the questions that you sort of teased out in the in advance.
44:14
And I had to think about it for a while, but I, but I hit on
44:18
something that I think was really the right answer.
44:23
And that was that in my early days, I had fear around public
44:33
speaking. And in the early days I had lots
44:38
of opportunities for public speaking.
44:42
And I have ever since that hasn't changed.
44:45
But at the beginning I had a kind of a fear and sometimes I
44:49
would get up in front of people who I knew they're very
44:54
knowledgeable. You know, it was like 200 people
44:57
or something like that. And I had to give a presentation
45:01
on, let's say, something rather technical that they what I was
45:06
worried about is they already knew a lot about it.
45:09
And so sometimes I went in feeling like, wow, this is
45:15
really boring. How do I make this interesting?
45:20
Are they all judging me? And there was maybe one or two
45:25
occasions where, and this is every speaker's nightmare, that
45:30
you start saying something and you forget what the next half of
45:35
the sentence is that you want to say.
45:38
And you draw, you're drawing a blank.
45:41
And, you know, a few seconds goes by, go by, and maybe it's
45:47
not that noticeable to everybody else, but it's like sheer terror
45:51
when it's happening to you, right?
45:54
And, and that happened a couple of times.
45:57
And so I had to figure out how to overcome that fear.
46:01
And I didn't go outside to anybody or take any classes or
46:06
training or anything like that. But I just decided at some point
46:10
that I had to figure out how to overcome that myself.
46:14
And, and I realized a kind of a truth.
46:18
And that is that no matter what the subject is, you got to be
46:23
able to talk about it and be clear about what you're saying,
46:28
not use a lot of jargon and, and that, you know, abbreviations
46:33
and stuff like that. You got to be clear, break it
46:35
down into something that's understandable.
46:39
And you've got to go in with an attitude of and use this in your
46:44
podcast. This is going to be fun.
46:48
And, and I decided that before I give a presentation that I've
46:55
got to decide, I have to go in with an attitude that this is
46:59
going to be interesting. I'm going to make it
47:02
interesting. And it, it's affects everything.
47:05
It starts to affect your tone of voice.
47:07
It starts to affect your enthusiasm about it.
47:11
And no matter what the subject is, if you think it's boring
47:15
going into talking to somebody about it, it will be boring and
47:20
you're not going to be happy with whatever that conversation
47:24
or presentation is. So you kind of have to just
47:28
decide to do it. And I know it sounds easy to
47:31
say, well, you just do it. But all I'm saying is attitude
47:37
is a is a huge factor and it is something that is controllable.
47:45
You know, when you have, you have control over the content
47:50
and you and you have control over to some degree what you're
47:54
going to say or how you say it. So anyway, fear of public
48:02
speaking and an attitudinal change to overcome that.
48:06
Yeah. I think the energy that you
48:07
bring into a presentation affects the memory that people
48:11
carry away with them of what you had just provided to them.
48:16
And as I listen to you talk, you're like, hey, I didn't go to
48:19
a coach. I didn't go to somebody outside.
48:21
Like I handled this myself. Were there particular things you
48:24
did that helped you work past this, or was it those
48:29
realizations that you talked about where I got to make this
48:31
interesting for you, jargon, et cetera?
48:33
And then just more repetitions. Yeah, I think it's repetition
48:38
and and getting to a comfort level.
48:41
I mean, I certainly started out at the beginning thinking that,
48:45
OK, I need to have one good joke at the beginning of a
48:50
presentation in order to, you know, loosen up the audience and
48:55
stuff like that. And that that's not the way to
48:58
do it. I mean, it's OK.
49:00
It's OK to be light hearted and to have, you know, an anecdote
49:04
or something that that that is is not too serious.
49:09
But sometimes if you really try to do a joke as such, and I've
49:15
got a lot of I'm in a lot of stories and things like that,
49:19
you know, God help you if it falls flat, because when it
49:22
falls flat, you know, you can cut the silence with a knife.
49:27
And and so that is not a a surefire way to to lighten,
49:34
lighten up in in that's the that's.
49:37
The tricky thing about, yeah, trying to script humor like
49:41
that, if it works, great, right? When it doesn't, you really wish
49:47
you could have those, you know, 20 seconds back.
49:49
Yeah, and, and and and, you know, humor is great.
49:53
I just think it has to be spontaneous.
49:57
You have to be commenting on something that just happened
50:01
just now as opposed to going in with a set story.
50:08
I just think it's a lot. It's a lot harder to pull it
50:10
off. Paul, how would you characterize
50:14
your superpower? Yeah, that, that's another
50:20
question that if you asked me that off the cuff, I wouldn't
50:23
know what to say. But you did tease that one out
50:27
also. And I, so I had to think about
50:29
it for a while. And I think that in pretty much
50:34
everything I do, and people have told me this too.
50:37
So I've taken it to heart that I try to be very clear in my
50:44
speech and try to take something that is complicated.
50:50
Usually legal issues are complicated.
50:54
You know, there's not just a single right way to express
50:59
something and to try to simplify it and make it understandable.
51:06
The worst thing I think a person can do is talk over the heads of
51:11
the audience. And you know, I mentioned
51:14
already using a lot of jargon and abbreviations and things
51:19
like that. It's really unnecessary to do
51:22
that, to get even a complicated point across to someone else.
51:27
And so, and that doesn't mean talk down to them and use, you
51:31
know, poor vocabulary or something, you know, 6th grade
51:36
vocabulary. It is not necessary to do that.
51:39
But I think that, you know, not trying to act like you're overly
51:48
sophisticated or, you know, even as an expert, like you're an
51:56
expert with your nose in the air and you think you're superior to
52:02
other people or something like that.
52:05
If you go in doing that, I think it's a losing proposition.
52:09
So, so I think being if, if there's a power, it is the
52:15
ability to take something that is complicated and make it
52:20
understandable to whoever you're talking to.
52:24
And that's something that I have to do every day.
52:27
And I remember there's a quote and, you know, some of these
52:33
famous people get quotes attributed to them, you know,
52:36
like, oh, well, Abraham Lincoln said that or Mark Twain said it,
52:40
something like that. I think it, I think this is a
52:42
Mark Twain, but I'm not sure. And it's something like if I'd
52:48
had more time, my letter would have been my letter to you would
52:53
have been shorter. And I think that's a great
52:58
concept because what it means is that if you are prepared and you
53:04
work on something to the point where you're able to present it,
53:09
it's better, it's more effective and it if it's shorter.
53:15
So brevity, part of the power is brevity, being able to say
53:21
something succinctly and so that it's easily understood.
53:26
And it's not so complicated that if you do it did a sentence
53:31
diagram of it, it would look like a, you know, wiring diagram
53:35
for a, for a stereo system or something like that.
53:40
You know you want to. You want to be able to keep it
53:43
simple and direct, and sometimes preparation time helps get to
53:49
that goal. I like that brevity and
53:54
succinctness. There's a lot to be said for
53:56
that. I had a business partner years
53:58
ago who was an amazing designer and he made a a very similar
54:03
comment about the world of art and design.
54:06
Like really good design is stripping away all of the
54:11
unnecessary things. Same kind of thing in what
54:14
you're talking about. You know, something you're
54:16
trying to communicate, teach, deliver to people.
54:20
The more succinct you can make it, the easier it is for it to
54:22
land in their brain for them to understand it.
54:26
Yeah, of course, as with anything, you could overdo that
54:30
and end up with IKEA as your design goal.
54:34
That's that's not you. Don't you maybe not want to go
54:37
that far? Yeah, fair enough.
54:40
Paul, I've just got one more question for you today.
54:42
But before I ask it, I want to do three things.
54:45
First of all, anybody looking to get in touch with Paul directly
54:49
can do so with his e-mail address.
54:51
Pete Gordon at Hanson, Bridget BRITBRID gett.com Pete Gordon at
55:01
Hanson, Bridget BRID gett.com And we'll include a link to that
55:06
in the show notes. I understand you don't want to
55:08
give out your cell phone number because you had some strange
55:12
inquiries come to you when you did that, when you first
55:15
published the book. It care to share one or two of
55:17
those? Well, OK, I I got a call from
55:22
after the book was published. I got a call from somebody who
55:26
wanted to do a large retirement community, you know, several 100
55:31
units for retired Taiwanese businessmen and very specific
55:38
niche. It's very specific.
55:40
And I thought, wow, you're going to have trouble filling that.
55:44
That is so far off base because one of the big problems with
55:48
doing a new community is you've got to be able to fill it.
55:52
And if you narrow down your market so narrow that you'll be
55:57
lucky if you can get, you know, five people to show up, that's a
56:02
big error. And I got a quite a few calls
56:06
like that from people who were really so far off base that I
56:11
thought, you know, this is this is not a legitimate call or
56:17
something I can really work with.
56:18
I mean, I would always polite with them and told them that,
56:23
you know, maybe it should be a a broader market, but but yeah,
56:29
that was an off base type of call.
56:32
An example. So again, we'll have that e-mail
56:36
address in the show notes, p.gordon@hansonbridget.com.
56:40
Also, as a reminder to listeners, if you want to get
56:42
more employees access to benefits that won't hurt them
56:44
financially and carries a financial upside for the
56:47
company, reach out to us at Add Back benefits.com.
56:51
Finally, if you'll take just a moment to leave us a comment or
56:53
review on your favorite podcast app, you will hold a special
56:57
place in my heart forever. Thank you.
56:59
So last question for you, Paul, you and I reconnect a year from
57:03
now and you're celebrating something big.
57:06
What is that big thing that you hope to be celebrating one year
57:10
from today? Yeah.
57:13
I don't know how big it is, but I, I would like to be able to
57:16
look back at the prior year and say that I have successfully
57:23
gotten a regular diet of the expert witness and expert
57:29
consultation work. Because that would be, for me, a
57:35
a successful use of my time in the next year with where I'm
57:42
really trying to shift my focus from the sort of chopped up a
57:47
day of too many little things to a series of larger and deeper
57:54
engagements in the expert witness area.
57:58
Fair enough. We'll check back in in a year to
58:00
see how that's coming along. But Paul Gordon from Hanson,
58:04
Bridget, I want to be the first to thank you for sharing both
58:07
your time and your story with us today.
58:09
I really appreciate it. Thank you, Anthony.
58:12
Good to work with you. Folks, that's a wrap on another
58:16
episode of the Inspired Stories podcast.
58:18
Thanks for learning with us today.