Latest / The Play Therapy Circle / Episode 7- Understanding the Child's World Through Play

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Episode 7- Understanding the Child's World Through Play · The Play Therapy Circle

0:00
Hi there and welcome to the Play Therapy Circle.
0:04
Before we begin, Please note this podcast is for
0:07
informational and educational purposes only.
0:10
It does not provide therapeutic advice and listening does not
0:14
create a client therapist relationship.
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All views expressed are my own and any case example shared have
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been de identified to protect privacy.
0:24
If you're seeking personal support, please reach out to a
0:27
qualified mental health professional in your area.
0:33
Hi and welcome to an episode of The Play Therapy Circle.
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I'm Kylie Ellison, a therapist, clinical supervisor and play
0:42
therapy trainer and I'm so grateful you're here.
0:45
This podcast is a space for thoughtful, soulful
0:49
conversations about child centred therapy, play based work
0:53
and what it means to show up with presence and compassion
0:57
both for our clients and for ourselves.
1:00
Whether you're a seasoned play therapist, a student just
1:03
starting out, or someone deeply passionate about working with
1:07
children, you belong here. Welcome everyone to another
1:14
episode of The Play Therapy Circle.
1:16
I'm your host, Kylie Ellison, and I am so glad you are here.
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Welcome to episode 7, you guys 7.
1:25
For all of you that have been following along from the start,
1:28
thank you. I always give a shout out at
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beginning to all our supporters, to all of our new followers on
1:34
Instagram and everyone listening at home, thank you so much for
1:38
following along. We have, as I said in the last
1:40
episode, so many topics to cover in the weeks ahead.
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So guys, I'm want to share with you growth because I'm actually
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recording this on the weekend ahead of time.
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Who even am I? This is crazy.
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I am not this organised normally in my world.
1:58
We are about to head into National Sports Aerobics Week
2:03
here in the Ellison family household.
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So I know I am going to be super busy next week.
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So I will be sharing on Instagram a day in the life of
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the juggle of being a play therapist, supervisor and mum.
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Stay tuned for that. But I wanted to make sure I got
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this episode out because I'm super excited about this one.
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So before I get into the content, I hope you all are
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having a great week wherever you are in the world.
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Here in Brisbane, in Queensland, we are celebrating the last week
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of winter, which is crazy. We're about to head into almost
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September and the start of spring.
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I have no idea where this year has gone.
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Oh my goodness. I hope that all of the episodes
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so far have been helpful and useful.
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That's always my goal. But today's episode is
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particularly special for me and in recognising our incredible
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Play Therapy Circle community, I want to invite in those that
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aren't just play therapists, but all of our listeners who might
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be parents, caregivers, people working in the education space,
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in the childcare space, community services space, anyone
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who has the privilege and the honour of working with kids.
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This episode is also for you because I want to talk today
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about understanding the child's world through play.
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And I always say when I am sharing training with others who
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are learning to be CCPT practitioners that I always say
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you will never look at play the same way after you have learnt
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CCPT. And I stand by that.
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I think that it offers an incredible insight into what
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children are trying to communicate without using words.
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So this is really powerful and an incredible skill that we
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develop as CCPT practitioners. And as Gary Landreth always
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says, we shouldn't be holding those skills just within the
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playroom. We should be sharing it with
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everyone in our community. And so I share this with you in
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living that tenant and that commitment to CCPT by doing this
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podcast. So hopefully I will reach and be
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able to share this with more people as part of my work as a
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CCPT practitioner. So today we're going to dive
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into how play gives us a window into children's worlds and
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particularly their inner world, and how we use CCPT to
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understand what they're trying to tell us without any
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communication via words. So this is definitely, as I
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said, a skill that we learn, but we also really hold true to the
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idea that children will tell us in their way in their time.
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And it's more about understanding what that is for
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us to then be able to respond rather than trying to fix it.
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So I want to plant that seed for all of you listening at home
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that we live in our framework of person centred counselling and
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approach where we espouse to that self actualization
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principle that if given the right space, kids will thrive
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and they will move towards that self actualization goal.
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However, if they don't necessarily have that space
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where they're seen and heard that we have this opportunity to
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shift that and to better understand what they're trying
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to tell us so that we can help to support them into more of
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those pro social behaviours. So we live by this principle.
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So I want to share it all with you now and hopefully give you
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some insight. So hopefully today's podcast
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will also plant the seed for the children that you're currently
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working with or connected with. So this could even be your own
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child or children within your community.
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This goes for everyone. I always say now that I do this
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and obviously have been for the last 10 years, that I will go to
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children's birthday parties and you just can't Unsee it.
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Like as soon as you understand what children are communicating
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through play, you see it everywhere, in the shopping
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centre, in the parks, at play dates, whatever that looks like.
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You will be able to have this sense of OK, this is what this
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child might be trying to communicate without words.
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And so it's an incredible honour to be able to do this work.
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What I want to start off by saying, and I want to do a whole
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podcast on just the state of children's mental health in
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current times because I think there is so many factors that go
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into the presentation of kids that we currently see in our
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practises and in our clinics. But universally, I think what is
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so important to remind us all is that play is children's
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universal language. So despite what they are going
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through, despite where they live, despite the communities
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they are a part of, they will all use play in those formative
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years to understand and make sense of their world and to
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communicate to others. So they use play to express
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themselves, to express their thoughts and their feelings and
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their experiences, and they always do.
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So when I connect with parents, what I often say is I am going
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to see obviously play in the playroom.
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That's part of my job, but you will also see a version of the
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play that I see in some capacity at home.
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It'll be maybe a slightly different way, but they will
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still be trying to work through the same issue or problem at
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home, just with different resources or in a different
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space. So I'm always encouraging
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parents and caregivers to to just sit back and observe, not
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for the purposes of information gathering, that's not the
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intention, but more around helping to see and hear their
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child without intervening and without fixing.
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I think in our current communities, and I can talk to
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my local community, is that I think that we have parents who
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are really struggling themselves.
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And that is absolutely understandable for many reasons.
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But as a result, I think we have certainly tried to shift as a
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collective in our parenting towards more of the gentle
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parenting style to supporting our child to be seen and heard.
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But as a result, I think a lot of parenting styles have shifted
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towards helping to fix things for their kids because they want
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to make sure that they're happy. They want to make sure that
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their child feels connected with them, that they feel safe and
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nurtured and loved. And I think all of those are
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incredibly beautiful and important qualities to have as a
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parent. But I think conversely, when we
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dive in quickly or too quickly sometimes to fix things for
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kids, we miss the messaging behind what they're trying to
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tell us. So for any of you listening out
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there, I am a parent myself, so I feel like I can share that we
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are certainly always ways critiquing ourselves as moms in
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particular. I know we can always be super
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critical of ourselves and put a lot of pressure on ourselves to
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be a great parent. I think that if we can take a
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little bit of that pressure off and sit in that position of
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believing in the potential and the capacity of our own kids,
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and for sometimes them to sit in that struggle to help them to
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work through and support them regardless will go a long way to
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helping our kids. So we come from this perspective
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as CCPT practitioners that play is how children communicate.
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I always say behaviour is communication.
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So we're going to talk soon about what that looks like in
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terms of different settings, in particular the clinic and play
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therapy settings. But I really want to emphasise
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that point first because it's super important that we hold
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that in mind. If we then look from that, it's
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important for us as the adults in the child's life to take the
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opportunity to understand what they're trying to tell us
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through play rather than asking questions, rather than
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intervening, rather than trying to fix or find solutions for
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kids. Can we stop and just be with the
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child to hear what they're trying to tell us?
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That's a really hard thing to do, so I just want to plant that
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seed as well. I'm planting so many seeds
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today, you guys. So for many children, especially
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younger kids, play is their communication.
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So we often say that play therapy for kids is like, what
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talk paste, excuse me, talk based therapy is for adults.
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That's how we try sometimes to phrase it to parents and
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caregivers and stakeholders to understand what play therapy is
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all about. So if we need to go to a
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therapist ourselves as an adult and use that talk based
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approach, maybe that's CBT or another modality.
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Children also need to do this, but they don't necessarily
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preference words, they preference play.
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That's how they communicate, talk through and make sense of
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the things that are happening to them.
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So in CCPT, in child centre play therapy, how do we understand
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what play is all about? South Certainly as a
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practitioner myself, I hold that space and belief that the child
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is capable of working through those issues that they're
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experiencing and developing that self understanding and that
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growth. That can be really hard as a
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parent, in particular as an educator, if we work in that
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space of being required to offer teachings and learnings to kids
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that we actually flip that idea on its head to say that children
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actually know what they need to work through.
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They know what they need to talk about and they know what needs
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fixing. They just don't have the words
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to be able to express that. So they'll do that through their
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behaviour and through their play.
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I very often have parents that come over the last 10 years to
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my clinic who will talk about certain traumas that have been
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experienced in their family background and emphasise the
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point that the child was not in the room or wasn't aware.
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And so they don't know what happened.
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And very quickly in the playroom, through play, not
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through words but through play, they will play out those trauma
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experiences very vividly. And I will then go back to the
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parents and say I think they know more than you anticipate.
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So I think that when we come from that perspective, I always
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say kids are so smart. That is like my big catch phrase
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that I say that they are so much smarter than we give them credit
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for. So if that is the case, and if
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they actually hold a lot of information that
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neurobiologically they haven't quite been able to put context
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or understanding to, how are they going to do that?
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If they can't use words to express themselves, they're
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going to use play. So what is our role as the
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therapist? It's definitely to create that
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sense of safety and trust and connection and acceptance.
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All of those tenants that we've talked about in our beginning
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podcast episodes that are very much a part of CCPT practise.
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So that congruence, empathy and unconditional positive regard.
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So what we often lean into is this idea that through play, the
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child tells their story in symbolic ways.
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So this happens on so many different ways and so many
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different levels. And I've got so many examples
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that come to mind, so we'll talk that through in a second.
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But what I want to again emphasise here is that if we
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shift our understanding or our perspective, that some
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behaviours, and especially those that say are aggressive, aren't
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necessarily kids trying to be naughty or bad, but in fact
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they're trying to express or communicate urgently something
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that is happening within their inner world that they need to
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make sense of or they need help with.
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It helps us to flip that idea of what the play is all about.
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So I definitely want you guys to be thinking about in the
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observations of the play if you are working in a clinical
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practise as a CCPT practitioner, not to immediately go to that
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lens of symptomology or understanding.
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I guess that superficial level of that behaviour presentation,
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say a child that's resisting to go into the therapy room and
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we're seeing an escalation in that transition into the
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playroom. Not seeing that necessarily as
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them digging the heels in and being stubborn, but potentially
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there being something underneath an unmet need, a heightened
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emotion, a particular issue for them that they are in fact
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struggling with. So if we look at it from that
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lens, for a child that is struggling to say, transition
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into a playroom and separate from mum or dad, it may actually
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be that they are deeply concerned, especially if there's
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been a trauma background. They're deeply concerned about
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the well well being of their parent that's in the waiting
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room and they actually don't want to separate because if they
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don't have eyes on their parent and they're not sure what will
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happen if they're not around. So that takes a very different
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lens to that behaviour if we're looking at what is the child
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trying to communicate and being resistant to separate from that
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parent. And there's lots and lots of
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different reasons, guys. I'm just giving one.
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It is absolutely going to be child dependent in terms of the
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history, presenting issues, diagnosis, goals of therapy.
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There's so many elements guys. I'm just trying to keep this as
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basic as I can to try and reach as many people as I can in this
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space. So definitely taking a minute to
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look at the behaviour, but then what might be underneath that
15:39
behaviour? What might be the unmet need or
15:41
the issue or problem or situation or feeling that the
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child is trying to communicate to us sometimes very urgently?
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So what do we see emerging in play when we start to understand
15:55
the child's world? And I do want to give you
15:58
obviously different perspectives in terms of holistically my
16:02
clients, not one client in particular and certainly not
16:06
anything in relation to direct therapy work or client work I've
16:09
done. But I want to talk holistically
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across the 10 years what I have seen in terms of those different
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types of play. So we can see this in many
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different ways. What I say when I am supporting
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beginning play therapists, especially when they begin to
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connect with a family or a child and in the beginning sessions
16:30
they observe the child to use say shop, the role play of shop.
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So very generally topic here. So what we understand in our
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approach, especially in those beginning sessions in that
16:43
exploratory stage, is this idea that children want to understand
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the nature of the relationship with us.
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They want to know that we are somebody safe, trusting that can
16:56
hold space for them to be able to provide that sense of empathy
17:00
and acceptance that maybe they haven't had in experiences with
17:04
other adults in their life. So we really work hard to build
17:08
that relationship. And we talked a couple of
17:10
episodes ago about the importance of the relationship
17:14
between the therapist and the child.
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That is super, super important. But what that means is that
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children will sometimes use play to assess that, to understand
17:24
that. And what I always say is
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children don't come in with an agenda in play therapy.
17:30
They don't sit in the car on the way when they're being driven to
17:32
the clinic and say, I'm going to tick this theme and maybe I'll
17:35
throw in this one as well. They don't come in with a
17:38
cognitive conscious awareness of what they're going to do.
17:41
But what is incredible about this work is generally speaking,
17:45
most kids do the same thing. So when they are exploring and
17:50
understanding that trust and safety, we see some fairly
17:54
consistent role plays that emerge and one of them is shop.
17:58
So we could look at shop superficially and say, OK, this
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child really enjoys playing shop with me.
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This is something that they quite to do and they knew how to
18:10
do it. That could be at a very
18:12
superficial level how we could look at that play.
18:14
What I want to encourage beginning play therapist to
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consider is this idea of it not necessarily just being about
18:21
shop, but what the child is trying to do is engage in a
18:25
relational experience where there is back and forth and
18:30
transactions involved. When we start to dig a little
18:33
deeper and looking at that play, what children are doing is
18:38
essentially from an attachment theory perspective, starting to
18:42
understand that back and forth experience of a relationship
18:46
with another. There is this experience of
18:49
buying something, say we're the therapist and where the shop,
18:52
that shop person, we're buying stuff at the shop and the client
18:56
is the shop keeper. There's this interaction where
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we are buying things and giving it to the child.
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The child might scan those items, they might ring it up on
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the cash register, They might ask us for money, we hand the
19:08
money over, they might give us some change.
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There is a back and forth to and fro between ourselves and the
19:15
child where they're using in real time through play to
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establish are we somebody that's going to respond to them?
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Are we going to meet them where they're at and are we going to
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engage with them in a way, way that's reciprocal, respectful,
19:30
connected, all of those beautiful qualities of CCPT?
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So there's often this need if they have had anxious
19:38
attachments outside of play therapy, where they may need to
19:41
do this repeatedly until they feel that sense of safety and
19:45
trust. So it might be 1 role play of
19:48
shop, It might be 10 role plays of shop.
19:51
Again, children don't come with an agenda and a timeline, which
19:54
is really hard when we're trying to explain that to stakeholders,
19:56
right? But this is the incredible thing
19:59
about children is they know how much time they need.
20:02
So shop and that role play of shop is a really kind of basic
20:06
example of how that works, where children are not just playing
20:09
with a cash register, but there is a deeper unpacking and
20:13
understanding of a relationship with another.
20:16
That's one example. I've got so many guys so I'm
20:18
going to try and do another one. So one of those things that we
20:21
see when kids progress in their therapy work, so this is more
20:25
maybe halfway through therapy or 3/4 of the way through therapy.
20:28
It can be at any stage. Is this role play around hide
20:33
and seek for any of you play therapist out there listening at
20:38
home who have seen a child engage in hide and seek?
20:42
If we were to just look at that superficially at the surface
20:47
level of that play, we might say that they have played hide and
20:51
seek before that they know how that goes and they like it and
20:56
it's something they want to do with us.
20:57
Again, that's awesome and that is certainly part of that
21:00
observation, but as a CCPT practitioner, we take that a
21:04
little bit deeper. So what we do is to understand
21:08
what is going on when we are doing that hide and seek role
21:12
play is there's so many different variables to this.
21:14
And we will talk about this in later podcasts.
21:16
But the idea of them engaging in this role play again, where they
21:22
are hiding and they're getting us to find them certainly
21:25
relates oftentimes to this unpacking and exploration,
21:30
again, of that attachment relationship between ourselves
21:34
and the child. But more importantly, their
21:37
experiences, again, outside of play therapy and making sense of
21:41
what it feels like to be constantly found.
21:44
So there's this idea of, again, that experience of attachment
21:49
relationships with others where people might go away and come
21:53
back, go away and come back. We understand from attachment
21:57
theory that certainly goes into establishing that secure
22:01
attachment base. When children are in those
22:03
formative years, if they haven't experienced that in their lives,
22:08
they may need to play that out over and over until again,
22:14
neurobiologically, they understand.
22:16
Or the therapist is somebody who's not going to leave and
22:20
never come back. So again, I'm planting this seed
22:25
guys. And I'm really simplifying this
22:26
because there's so much I could talk about in terms of hide and
22:28
seek, which I won't because I have to be on a time frame here,
22:31
you guys, to make it easy for you guys to digest this
22:34
information. What I want to, again, plant the
22:36
seed. If you are seeing children in
22:38
your life right now who are engaging in hide and seek, it
22:42
might be worth taking a second to just observe that play,
22:46
engage in it. Obviously we want to play with
22:48
the child but observe it rather than treating it at that
22:53
superficial level because very often in the playroom there is
22:58
other parts to that play that they are trying to unpack and
23:01
make sense of. We have so many different
23:04
elements in the playroom where this looks and arises.
23:07
We obviously have SAN tray and there's often SAN tray work that
23:11
children do that is very symbolic that help children to
23:14
unpack their experiences and how they're doing.
23:18
I've had many different San trays over the years in my
23:21
playroom where oftentimes kids will use resources to talk about
23:26
their experience again with others or just their
23:29
understanding of their world and helping us to symbolically
23:33
understand can be really useful. Art is another one where we
23:37
certainly see that expression of that inner world.
23:40
And so again, we hold very firmly in CPT that are, but any
23:45
kind of drawings is very much an insight into that child's world.
23:50
So we don't do things like hang them up on the wall.
23:53
We certainly don't put them on display because we recognise
23:57
that there is so much therapeutic content that is
24:00
contained within those drawings that it's so important to us
24:04
that we protect that from a confidentiality and ethical
24:07
perspective. It's certainly something that is
24:09
used in the playroom. And so again, sometimes art can
24:12
be very symbolic around the things that are going on for
24:14
that that child in their life. I've given you guys a couple of
24:19
examples of how that looks in the playroom.
24:22
I have so many more. But what I guess I wanna say is
24:26
that as part of my work, what I've learnt over time is the
24:32
importance of having patience, of really stopping and stopping
24:37
myself from jumping in to ask questions or to understand what
24:41
the child is trying to tell me. And that really comes from that
24:44
perspective of adults being the experts, right?
24:48
That we need to essentially understand what the child's
24:51
doing to either teach something to them or fix something for
24:55
them, or yes, jump in and help solve something for them that
25:00
they are struggling with themselves.
25:02
I often say to therapists that becomes so much about our stuff
25:07
and not about the Childs because here's the great thing about
25:10
kids is that regardless of whether we understand what
25:14
they're trying to tell us, they'll keep telling it until we
25:17
get it. So whether we can jump in first
25:21
time that we see a play and help them to understand it and show
25:24
our own understanding or not is not important.
25:27
At the end of the day, the child will certainly keep playing
25:31
something out until they've found resolution to it
25:34
themselves to or they feel like they've had that healing and
25:37
growth so that they can move on. So we see that in the playroom,
25:41
but we certainly see that in other settings as well, more
25:44
broadly in the education and the childcare space where we often
25:49
see really big behaviours. And I think that there is so
25:52
many aspects to supporting kids in those larger settings that I
25:56
would love to do a podcast all about that guy.
25:58
So I promise that topic will come because I want to see and
26:03
validate and hear those incredible childcare and
26:06
education workers in our our broader community.
26:09
I think certainly think that that becomes really challenging
26:12
when children are using their play, their behaviour and their
26:16
play to communicate things that are going on for them when we
26:19
don't necessarily have that immediate time to hold space to
26:22
help them feel seen and heard. So I think that anywhere in a
26:26
child's life, they're going to be using behaviours in a way
26:31
that talks to what's happening for them and what they're
26:33
struggling with and what they're experiencing.
26:36
And it is about us as adults, rather than jumping in and
26:40
asking questions, taking a minute to stop and observe, and
26:43
more importantly, to validate feelings.
26:45
I always say that with anyone I connect with.
26:48
I really want to encourage anyone connected with children.
26:52
If we're able to validate and see and hear children's
26:56
feelings, that is absolutely 100% the first step in helping
27:00
healing and growth and change. So I can't encourage that
27:03
enough. Whoever is listening right now,
27:06
in worst case scenario, in times of stress, we revert back to
27:09
what we know. If you can, in those moments
27:11
where you're struggling to stop, to breathe, to take a minute to
27:15
observe and maybe just go to the feelings to help validate what's
27:19
going on for that child in the first instance, it may or may
27:22
not work. But I share that with you as a
27:24
passionate CCPT practitioner in this space.
27:27
I think that valuing too, when we're talking about CCPT and its
27:32
application to the wider community, is this valuing of
27:36
unconditional positive regard. That is hard when we have a
27:42
child who is presenting with really high intensity
27:47
behaviours, for example. It's really tricky and it's
27:50
difficult for us as adults in that space, but we don't tell
27:54
the child what it means. We support them to work through
27:57
it. It's so important that we give
27:59
them that space to process what's going on for them and
28:04
even in those alternative spaces, not just in the clinics
28:07
and in private practise. But if we can hold just a minute
28:11
of space for a child to be able to feel seen and heard and
28:15
support them to work through it, it will go a long way in
28:18
supporting them to feel like they can move towards that self
28:21
actualization principle. So we accept the child though in
28:26
terms of that particular value, no matter what they express.
28:30
So that can be really tricky when we're working in a play
28:34
therapy space. So to all of my incredible play
28:38
therapists in our play therapy circle community, and I feel
28:41
like this needs to be on a T-shirt.
28:42
You guys for our CCPT guys out there, trust the process.
28:47
Trust the process. I know, right?
28:49
I feel every supervisor I have, I say that to them and they're
28:52
like, I know I'm doing it. What's going on?
28:55
That's what I say to you. Again, trust the process.
28:59
So what can we do both as play therapists and those in the
29:03
community to help support kids and for those of you listening
29:07
at home? So I want to encourage parents,
29:10
teachers, caregivers, agency workers, all of those incredible
29:14
people doing incredible things in that work of supporting
29:17
children in our community to try to observe without rushing to
29:22
interpret, observe without rushing to interpret, Or I'd
29:29
like to add to that, observe without rushing to fix or to
29:33
question. So what can we do to create
29:37
that? So creating safe play spaces
29:40
where kids can just use the resources to play as opposed to
29:44
having a prescribed structure allowing those freedom in play
29:48
choices. And like I was just saying,
29:50
reflecting those feelings is so important.
29:53
You're feeling really frustrated right now and it's really hard.
29:57
Those kind of things, those kind of statements really help
30:01
support kids. We use that CCPT lens in our
30:05
practise to understanding how we can grow from presence, not
30:09
control. Big stuff, you guys.
30:13
Hey, I want to wrap this episode out because we're at 30 minutes,
30:17
guys. In the beginning, it was short
30:19
and sweet. I fear as we go through these
30:22
episodes, they're going to get longer.
30:24
I'm going to try and keep to my time, you guys, but I hope for
30:27
all of you listening at home that this has started to plant
30:32
the seed, as I have throughout this session around listening
30:36
through play to the child's inner world.
30:39
So what do we understand as a recap of all of this?
30:42
Play is children's natural mode of communication, as Gary Lynch
30:48
would say. Play is their word.
30:50
Sorry, toys are their words and play is their language.
30:54
So CCPT and the skills of CCPT provides that environment for
30:59
understanding. And so through play, we can get
31:04
an understanding or insight into the child's inner world with
31:08
respect and acceptance. So what I want to invite you all
31:14
to reflect on as I wrap up this episode is to think about the
31:19
last time you observed a child's play.
31:22
To think about what might they have been telling you, not what
31:29
you saw them do. Not looking at that superficial
31:32
level, but what might be the function or the message or the
31:36
unmet need or the emotions or the experience behind the play?
31:42
What's under the surface? What are they trying to tell
31:45
you? And I encourage each of you to
31:48
do this in your work, in your daily connection with kids, to
31:52
hear children's stories. So thank you so much for
31:57
listening today. I appreciate, appreciate
32:01
wholeheartedly every single member of our Play Therapy
32:04
Circle community. Please feel free to share with
32:08
your colleagues, friends, parents, others this podcast to
32:11
help spread the word about CCPT, how amazing it is and how it can
32:17
and support the children in your community.
32:19
Please follow us along on Instagram at the Play Therapy
32:22
Circle Podcast and please feel free to share our podcast posts
32:26
as we update. We drop an episode on Friday.
32:29
Please feel free to reach out to us if you have a topic that you
32:33
would like us to cover in the future.
32:35
But thank you so much for being here and being part of the
32:38
circle. Next week, our episode is going
32:41
to focus on setting up a CCPT playroom.
32:45
How cool. So that will be a slightly
32:48
different topic that we're going to talk about next week, but
32:51
certainly for beginning play therapists.
32:52
I hope it will be a helpful resource as I hope all of these
32:56
episodes are. So thank you so much, everyone
32:59
go and I will connect with you again soon.
33:02
Thanks. Bye.
33:04
Thank you so much for being here for another episode of The Play
33:08
Therapy Circle. If anything resonated with you
33:11
today, I'd love it if you could follow the podcast, share it
33:15
with a colleague, or leave a short review.
33:17
It really helps others find our circle.
33:20
And if you have a topic or question you'd love me to
33:23
explore, I'd love to hear from you.
33:26
This space is for you, and I want it to feel like a
33:29
conversation. Until next time, take care of
33:32
yourself and remember you belong here.