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I'm Not Sober, I'm Just Not Drinking · Made, Not Found

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: I remember working with uh shaman and explaining like there's no off-ramp here.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't something that you can control, and so be ready for whatever comes.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever comes, you're likely gonna vomit.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: You might shake your pants.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: And people will be so curious about why you would not drink, and then also so judgmental about why you might do something like a psychedelic like Molly MDMA.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: To think like these are all so bad and alcohol is completely acceptable feels like we got it completely backwards.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Our kids are growing up in Miami in a city where there's access to a lot of things.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think the one thing we've communicated to them so far that supports this is like the only real rule is don't die.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Made Not Found.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: We believe the best lives aren't found.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: They're built.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: One real conversation at a time.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I was thinking about how we celebrated our anniversary not long ago this summer, and we went to Ibiza, right?
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh for a variety of reasons.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: But anyhow, I was thinking about how, you know, we took Molly, which brings up all of these feels when I say that out loud, because automatically I'm I start thinking like people are gonna judge me.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it it brings up the question of what were we taught about drugs in general when we were younger, and how has that changed and evolved?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know personally it has been quite an evolution.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think uh well, one, it was an epic trip and with friends and on our own, and um and that was part of it being epic.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: But I think when you think about this topic, for me it starts with like framing up what is what do you even think about when you think about drugs, right?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because because I think growing up you would think about certain things, but I think of it very differently now.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: And what I mean by that is like I think of coffee as a drug, alcohol as a drug, prescription drugs as drugs, as well as illegal drugs.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: Where whereas growing up, you would I would have thought about only you know weed or or hard cocaine or like really hard drugs in that context, right?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's the first first thing for me is like when I talk about drugs, I'm talking about that whole gamut.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's I think that's important because f you know, one of the things I remember growing up was like, you know, we grew up during the like war on drugs.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: This is your brain on drugs, crack the egg in the frying pan.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, that was forget about what I was taught, we'll come back to that.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: But for me, that like put everything in one class.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, all drugs do this.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: And as I grew up, I think that was actually a dangerous viewpoint because you know, uh most people are probably gonna experiment with something again, whether that's coffee, alcohol, weed, stronger things.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: And if you experiment with something and they're all classed the same, and this one isn't that uh impactful.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I smoked weed for the first time.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's drugs.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's a little bit dangerous because then you may say, well, if that's all that is, what about this?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: What about heroin?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: Right, an extreme example.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that's what we were taught.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think we were taught, you know, don't smoke marijuana because then you're gonna end up doing heroin.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: And they were all that was a gateway drug that led to the next harder drug, and almost like you there was no off-ramp on that.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that um for years I was just afraid of drugs in general.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Although alcohol was completely normal, excepted.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, growing up, I come from a family on my dad's side of f uh the family the family of drinkers.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's just what it was.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: You go to family parties and everyone's drinking.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: It was almost weird if you weren't drinking.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and we've experienced this multiple times in our lives, right?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like we decided to give up alcohol this year, which is the second time that you've done this.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the fourth, depending on how you want to look at it, since I was pregnant three times.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: But that I've done it.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, and and people will ha be so curious about why you would not drink, and then also so judgmental about why you might do something like a psychedelic like Molly MDMA.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it's super interesting when you actually have had experience with both and you've uh witnessed what they can do and the effects that they have on you or the people around you.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's it's really I think it's changing a bit in general.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe that's our world and circle, or maybe that's broadly.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know the alcohol industry is down, so people aren't drinking as much.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: And whether that's because they're not doing any drug or whether it's because there's a shift away from that, I don't know.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: But I do think going back to it is is really interesting because it sets the framework, especially for especially for my for me.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like my relationship with drugs in general is really I guess if I look at it, I think fascinating.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: Is it fascinating?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: Is it what what word would you use?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um I mean when you first told me about your family's history with drugs, I think it was more shocking than fascinating.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then led to a million more questions.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: When I think of it fascinating, I don't I don't I'm not glamorizing anything.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: What I mean is like that there's this like dual perception or reality.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: So so I guess to address about it.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: So to add context to that, so I grew up um with a family of drinkers as well.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'll call them a family of parties.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody, my family was young.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so they were still really in their like party days.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: When I think about it, you know, we went to college.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: My my parents didn't go to college, my uncles didn't go to college.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: So they they were in these party days when they had kids or still in their hometown.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: And your parents were 18 when you were born.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: My parents were 18 when I was born.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so we were we, when I say we, meaning me, my cousins who are about my age, we're like exposed to this from the very beginning.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I remember us being first, second grade talking about the funny smelling cigarettes.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: And and I remember walking out um to our living room in the morning and and seeing a bowl there.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know what a bowl was, but like and and smelling it knowing that was drugs and being devastated crying to my parents, you do you do drugs.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: And when you were how old?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: That would have been eight, seven, something like that, right?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: And and that was the tip of the iceberg.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know the the rest, but that was the early foundation.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, fast forward, all of my parents, I say all of my parents because I say my my mom, my my dad, my stepdad, like all of them have had addiction problems, have gone through recovery and to varying degrees on different things, whether that's alcohol, you know, cocaine, pain pills, say again pain pills, pain pills, opioids, cra I mean, it's run the gamut.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: And for my mom per specifically, and and you experienced this firsthand, like there was a stretch of of 20 years where she was really deep in addiction.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: That started for me at 12 when my my brother was born.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: She fell really deep into addiction, she went into treatment, it was like earth-shattering for for many ways, and we can dig deeper in that at some point.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: But um, but so my perception of of drugs was very negative.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yet at the same time, I smoked weed for the first time my freshman year.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: I uh tried mushrooms and LSD during high school.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: But for me, the idea of like cocaine, which is the one that I really like I would never in my mind I was like, I will never try that.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately, or or fortunately whatever, I've I've tried many things throughout my life at this point.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I as I look at it today, there are very beneficial things and there are very non-beneficial things.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think in the in the categoration categorization of drugs, that's why it's so important to me because they're not all the same.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: I was just gonna say that when you say beneficial, because I think that can be a dangerous statement taken out of context.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: So there's I don't know that there's any real upside to hard drugs like cocaine or meth or heroin or any of those, right?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really think there's anything but like darkness and addiction on the other side of that, right?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't think it's just with us.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's been a lot of of work and a lot of um studies and a lot of just a lot of information now available about psychedelics, right?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: It was Michael Poland, wasn't it?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: Who You Can Change Your Mind and the He had How to Change Your Mind.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: How to Change Your Mind.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: He wrote the book.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: There was a documentary on Netflix about you know multiple psychedelics, and and there is really a lot of benefit that can come from psychedelics.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's almost like you have to separate psychedelics in one, or maybe you can separate them differently, because there's also like natural, right?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like if it's if it's marijuana or mushrooms, and it comes from the earth, along with I'm sure other ones that I'm just not thinking of, plenty, right?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Then that feels very different than than cocaine and meth, which are chemical man-made, right?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, cocaine comes from a plant as well, and it's processed.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: So there's always it's always a slippery slope, but I agree with you in your categorization, but you started in a place where where all drugs besides alcohol were bad.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Right growing up.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And alcohol was totally acceptable.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I mean, I drank plenty in college.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: We we partied a lot.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, I got myself into dangerous situations, like more than once.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, at one time, you know, we were out at a party, I think you threw, and um we went up to the bar, we ordered shots.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, granted, mine definitely uh was drugged.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: I had a roofie in mine for sure, and ended up like I I don't know, the fact that I made it home that night alive and like not sexually assaulted is is a gift from God.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: But there were plenty of times that I was just completely wasted, got in the car with somebody who was drinking, made horrible choices, and nothing really like, you're not when you're out drinking alcohol, there is a level sometimes where you're really like, you know, having fun and you feel free, and I think that's the what people are chasing.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: And at the same time, there's a level where it's no longer fun and you feel like crap, and then the next day you feel like you feel even worse, and then that kind of spirals.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas it's interesting because when you're when you're talking about mushrooms or MDMA, you don't have any hangover afterwards.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I've never really had any like darkness or any isolation.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's much, they're much more especially MDMA, it's a heart opener, you feel more connected.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a very, very different experience.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so to think like these are all so bad and alcohol is completely acceptable feels like we got it completely backwards.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think I think.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, when I think about why um you take anything, I take anything.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um even thinking about that is is valuable, but I think yet uncommon.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you mentioned like everyone just drank, and it was just it was totally acceptable.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: My my family as well.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: It was it would have been odd to not be drinking at an event, and you'd essentially have to explain yourself for not drinking rather than drinking.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: But I would say throughout time, and we could talk about how we got there, but um and if we're in the same spot, but um I think there was started to be some thought behind why you're doing what you're doing.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, that was a really big revelation.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there's a lot in the middle here, but I'm gonna skip to something that's on my mind right now, which is I remember we were in Hawaii with all of our family, right?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: Your parents, my parents, my mom, the boys, and over New Year's, and I was just feeling like sluggish and tired.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: And it was the typical holiday thing.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: We ate too much, we drank too much, you're just like worn down, right?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: When you're supposed to not be.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember waking up, and I think I was I was on a self-exploration, personal growth journey, uh maybe early, I don't know, but but I was definitely on it.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember thinking about the upcoming year, and and in my mind, I'm I'm planning, I was out up early, having coffee on the patio, and I'm planning for the year, and I'm thinking, you know, my new year's resolutions and such, and I'm thinking, I'll I'll probably take the month off of drinking.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then in my mind, I said, We've done that.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: We we had done dry January multiple times in Chicago.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: We used to do December, actually, remember?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well, as people would say, What is wrong with you guys?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because January was kind of boring.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we're like, how can we make it even more challenging?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do December instead.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: Which the funny thing about that is I also remember we were no less socially active.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: But we literally had the conversation after one night, like, how do we even hang out with these people?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because we'd go to clubs, stone sober.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: You drink like a Red Bull or something, just so you can kind of like give yourself some kind of uh shift, mindset shift, and then you hang out with all of your friends, and you're like, wow, this is what I look like when I am drinking out all night, and uh you want no part of it.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's funny because I said these people meaning and and it almost sounded like it's their fault.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's not.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: What I meant by that is their state at that moment is not it's not interesting unless you're in that state as well.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: And and there were a bunch of realizations from that.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: One of them was like, everybody's a little bit awkward at first, and and everyone has their not everyone, but you know, in that setting, everyone would have their first drink or two and loosen up, and we wouldn't have our first drink or two.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: But once everyone else loosened up, we would loosen up too, and we could have just as much fun.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's very true.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: Except for the conversation just went downhill, became irrelevant, and therefore weren't interesting.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's hard to have a really like deep conversation when you're really drinking alcohol.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: You can you feel like you're connected because it's like hugs and I love you, maybe, and like you're smiling and laughing.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: And let's bond over doing a shot together.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: But there's not really anything under the underneath that.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's it's very superficial connection.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: So all of that was all of that was the the back, you know, story context to this New Year's, let's call it day.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: I don't remember if it was day or not, but where I said, I'm I'm gonna not drink in my mind for a month, and then I said that we've done that, I'm gonna do a quarter, and then it just you know just dawned on me, I guess was given to me, God spoke to me, like I'm gonna take a year off of drinking.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember then saying it out loud to your family and and my mom, because that's who was there, and they kind of were like, No way.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think you might have even said, like, no way.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: Probably.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: And why?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: Why would you do that?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: And whatever.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that even made me more convicted that I was gonna do it.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but it was such an interesting year because what it made me do is question all the reasons about why I drank.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and then I found out most of them weren't true anymore.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: I used I would drink because I wanted to be more social.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: And at this point in my life, I was actually probably less social once I drank.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to be have more energy to stay out, and I would get tired at this point.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: We also had little kids.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: I I wanted to um be more relaxed, and I I was actually more anxious.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: It was just so interesting to see.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: And my point in that whole story is just that was probably my first exposure to actually like having intention behind whatever I was doing in in general, but specifically to this conversation in the drug category, even though it pertained to alcohol.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's interesting because I didn't do it that year.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: I remember Ashton had was just turning a year old, and I was like, I was just pregnant a minute ago.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: I just gave up drinking, like I did not feel inclined to to do it with you that time.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it was interesting to watch you, and it was also interesting to see the differences.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like I definitely knew like you were get up earlier in the morning and you had more energy and you had more clarity, and I think it was just a big shift, and it was interesting for me to witness it.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that it was like kind of nagging on me for months uh last year of like why am I drinking?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was already thinking it.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: So when you said I'm gonna give up alcohol this year again, I was like, I'm in, like I felt the same thing.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: But it's such an interesting practice of just observing yourself and noticing.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like I will know, I notice like the times I want to have a drink are often because I'm just looking for a shift in mentality and I don't want to do the work to shift it.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm tired and I'm and I want to either numb or I want to bow out of whatever I'm in.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: I want, you know, like I don't want to be in it.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Just want to break.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: You just want to break.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or you know, it's like, yeah, or you're just trying to shift something.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't want to feel tired.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: And instead of actually doing what I need to do, whatever that means, of meditate or sleep or just take time to myself, it's just easier to just pour yourself a drink.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: But but it never really works, right?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you have the drink and then you're still tired.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like it doesn't like take it away, it shifts a little bit.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: But it's so interesting to watch and notice like when I really crave is the wrong word, but we use crave alcohol.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: And almost this, I mean, the year's more than halfway over, there's been very few times where I am like, oh, I actually would want one for a a drink for the right reasons, whatever that might be.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that that's an interesting interesting comment about the right reasons because we talked about it before, and and we were talking about specific vacations where we were saying like at that time when we were out with friends, and it was like a celebratory like enhancement, not a like um what's the word you use, like try trying to numb something that it was actually great.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: And you oddly, like you, I didn't feel like hung over or as tired or as worn down, right?
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: It was like almost in the right setting for the right intention.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so we've had this long, interesting journey with alcohol, which is kind of ironic given that you know I started one of the most notorious alcoholic beverages ever.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's very interesting to to pay attention to that journey, right?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: And we've been on an interesting one, but the fact that um we're taking a break from alcohol is is one thing that is very counter to people when we also then continue the conversation about drugs and say, well, someone would say, Oh, you're sober, and I'd say, I'm not sober, I'm not drinking alcohol.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: Which is I think somewhat baffling to people.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: Look, the idea of California sober where people still smoke weed or whatever, that's different, but um or not different.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of the same thing.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's I think so.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: Are we Miami sober?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe that's a maybe that's a term we we only do MDMA and and mushrooms.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: And mushrooms.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, okay, first of all, just for context, it's not like we're doing MDMA all the time.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: And by all the time, it's like we rarely I mean and I don't even know that I need to justify this, but it feels important to say like we're not out all the time.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's very infrequent, and it's intentional when we choose to do it.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so we were in Ibiza, we went out to an early party to watch our friend DJ.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: And um We were with our other friends from LA.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, with friends, and intentionally decided to take Molly.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, we weren't drinking with it, we had no other substances with it.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, had an amazing time, danced our asses off, had great sex, was sleeping by like 2.30 in the morning or something, which is basically Miami time when I would normally go to bed.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was like, so it's a very intentional.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like a random Tuesday night in Miami at space or something.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Or every weekend that we're going out clubbing and leaving our kids and sleeping the whole next day, right?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's good that's good context.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because it matters.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: And which I think is actually the interesting part because we've had conversations about like, are we at an age or phase of life where we shouldn't be doing this at all?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I think under that um structure, it feels uh it feels okay, even right.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I don't know.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do we do we age out at some point where we're like, okay, we don't want to be the oldest people dancing at the club, regardless.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like maybe.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: But there's also two buckets, right?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: So we have recreational time with with psychedelics.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's also microdosing of mushrooms, which we do frequently, and we should get into because I think that's that's a very different conversation.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's like psychedelic journeys of that are very intentional and that are not at all a party.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: They're essentially their work and their whatever maybe years of therapy in one session, right?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so so I don't know if we could talk about any of them, but they're different.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I I think that's a great um categorization of it.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: And look, we talked about I think we should put a pin in in MDMA or Molly with the idea that there was a there was a time recreationally in college where um I I loved it, and I think I loved it because I had was never really able to access these emotions.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I remember us kind of being out or together after.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Or during uh times where I was taking it, or maybe we were taking it, and you were saying, I I love this version of you.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: You never tell me these things, and it was honestly because I wasn't able to.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I I feel like even though it was in a recreational setting, MDMA was really transformative to me because it allowed me access to parts of myself, the softer parts that I had shut off.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you were you would show up so differently and speak to me differently, and it was like the only time probably you ever told me that you thought it was beautiful and that you, you know, like the I love you have always been there, but like the I love you so much kind of conversation, like only came out during those nights.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so, I mean it it feels slightly different because what we were doing in college like was not clean.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Probably we were getting it from a very variety of sources, and like that becomes a whole scary conversation of of getting things mixed with fentanyl, which is a very real and terrifying reality that we live in, where now we're older, we have different resources, we can we have ability to get it where it's clean and you know it's not laced with something that's going to or even test it.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, something that's not gonna be deadly.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's another conversation, I guess.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: But but given like taking fentanyl out of it, it is if everyone was doing Molly and not drinking or not doing all these other things, like I feel like there would be no fighting.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you just want to love people.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: You just want to dance and you want to be happy and you see the best in people, and it's it's really a beautiful thing.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's all under the caveat or umbrella of it's a drug, so it's not something you do every day or all the time, and I think that's that's an important distinction.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: But but then talking about psychedelics, yeah.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I grew up um having done mushrooms and LSD um multiple times, always recreationally.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: I remember a specific time where I did LSD and and like staring at this poster at my buddy's house for I don't know, it seemed like hours.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember specifically in my mind thinking, oh, I got that, it all makes sense now.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: It was like one of those moments.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then there was a long time where I never messed with it at all.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: For me, the reintroduction to psychedelics was when I ended up in Peru doing ayahuasca.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, we had talked about it in a prior episode about finding yourself.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: It was a really transformative, transformative moment for me.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: It was really powerful.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: I went into it a little bit, I won't say arrogant, but confident.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like I've had experience with plenty of drugs, I'm not worried about this.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then I remember working with the with the um shaman and and him explaining like there, there's no off-ramp here.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't something that you, you know, you can control.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so be ready for whatever comes.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever comes is you're likely gonna vomit.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: You're you might shit your pants, like he's telling you all that you're definitely not gonna be in control.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember getting nervous, and they said, like, okay, you just have to breathe through it.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess in your defense, sometimes you can breathe through it.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we can.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: But um, but I remember doing that first session and it being so hard.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because for me, in that session, I was feeling things, and it's specifically to you, I was feeling what you felt or what I would perceive you felt when interacting with me.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I could see myself, I was in your body feeling it and and feeling it like intensely.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so that like empathy, I think, was created and this perception of how you show up and the impact you have on others and things like that.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it was, these are hero doses, these are guided journeys, these are, you know, there was an integration the next day, and then two days later we were set to do it again, and I almost didn't do it because it was it was intense.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: But I said, I'm here and I'm going to again, and that experience was pretty blissful.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was um a reintroduction in a different way to psychedelics that really fascinated me.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how that impacted you.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I remember when you first came home and you were like, I'm gonna do ayahuasca, and I have no idea.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: I never even heard the term ayahuasca.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: I knew nothing about it, and we watched a documentary about it.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: And um I don't remember ever having like a negative thought, just a curiosity and a no just a lack of understanding of what it was, you know.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I knew you needed to do something to shake out of like the funk that you had been in, and so I didn't know much before.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: But I knew while you were there, even just the text messages you were sending me were different.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like I could feel that, and you came home like a different man.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: It was like you 2.0, and you came home with like your heart open and with this new understanding of of how I felt, which is something that I don't know that we could have gotten there any other way.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think a therapy could have done it.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: I had talked and talked and talked in your ear for years and years, and that was not working.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so I don't know that there's anything else that really would have given you that.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't even expect that.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: I thought you were going there, and I think you did too, with the understanding that you were gonna have clarity and peace around work life.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that was not what you got there.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: That was it was much more personal than that, and it was such a gift.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think after that, I had a fear around it.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think I had a fear more of like the shitting and vomiting part of it than like the at that point.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Had you ever done a psychedelic uh let's just say mushrooms, ayahuasca, something like that.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh actually we did mushrooms when we went to Amsterdam.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Remember?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: Which was a great, I like laughed my ass off when we walked around in circles with no idea what we were doing, but it was super fun.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: But that was it, but never like really with intention.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think I developed a curiosity, and so I went down a path a couple of times of thinking like, okay, I was gonna do ayahuasca.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it was never the road just never opened up for me, and it and people have said, you know, you have to kind of be called to it, and I and I think that I wasn't.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then we started microdosing mushrooms and um psilocybum, and I think that I got really comfortable with that, and it was something that I felt confident with.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: I felt like it's from the earth.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, I just felt good about it.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so when the opportunity presented itself to do a journey with psilocybom, I was j I was still nervous.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: You're nervous because it's essentially when you say there's no off-ramp, it's not just about the physical stuff that can happen, you know, it's not just about the vomiting and shitting yourself.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's the fact that you have to fully surrender.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's no other way through it.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's like childbirth.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you're gonna ride this wave and you're just gonna ride it.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that is, it is an ultimate surrender, and that part is hard because you don't know what's gonna come up.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: But my first journey, I remember very early on, um, it was just kind of starting to take effect.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess it sounds kind of cheesy, but I remember saying, like, to the mushrooms, whatever, like, please, whatever you need to show me, show me with love.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like the mushrooms spoke to me and it said, I come from the earth, I am love.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like the most beautiful experience.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Everything that I saw was so eye-opening I can actually get emotional about it.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it was done with so much love.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that like that my first experience would have been like five years ago, and I've had several since then because I don't know another way to change your mind and shift your perspective in a setting more effective than psychedelics.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you said something that made me think.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: I I remember after my two journeys in in Peru, talking with the um shaman or the the guy that put the trip together, I can't remember.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: For context, it was 10 entrepreneurs from around the world, uh, all different industries coming with their own um perspective on what this was for, and ultimately what I learned is it gives you what you need, not what you want, is kind of the saying.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: But after um the shaman had said something to me because he knew I was raised Catholic, I would say it was holiday Catholic at that point, and he would say, What is your perception of of God and Jesus at this point?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, it was much clearer.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: I said, but it just strengthened that that he exists.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like, which I think was interesting because it's a very um I'm saying interesting a lot.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's an interesting conversation.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um I haven't noticed.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I think it's a scary thing under the context of religion, but under the context of a relationship with God, it's it's actually very empowering.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's very I don't know, it's very spiritual, godlike.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: It is godlike, and it's it's an interesting thing to bring up because you automatically if you automatically put drugs into a bucket, it is a sin, it is evil, it is the root of you know all things that destroy essentially, right?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: And and that can be true of some drugs.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: If you take out psychedelics from that bucket and you put it into a different bucket.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know personally, I have had multiple encounters, I guess I will call them, with God.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I can achieve that connection with God through deep meditation and through psychedelics, and it is the same feeling.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that feeling is pure love and oneness.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like it you realize like we are all made from the same cloth, we are all made from God, we are all one, we are all interconnected in the most beautiful, loving way, right?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and so to think that it's ungodlike after you've done it, it doesn't make sense.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that would be surprising to hear somebody think think that.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Now, in fairness, I have had you know had that experience outside of LA where you know the the danger is you are opening up your mind.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: And you're opening up your mind and your energy field to the people that you're with.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: And in in the guided cases, in the ceremony cases, there's a person that's guiding you.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: And in this case, this person was pure evil.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: And and I saw that, and it really you saw the negative effect of that too.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess the caution is like it, you know, the lesson, not the caution, is like for me, if I'm ever going to do that, I'm really gonna spend time understanding who I'm opening my mind and energy field to.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: But I do think for the most part, it'd be hard to find people that didn't feel closer to God, closer to oneness after a guided psychedelic journey.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, just for context, unfortunately, that was someone who probably is mentally ill who was leading the ceremony.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Who should have never been in that position.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: And why you had that experience is still very interesting because it was uh a place where we had friends who had been and did not have that experience, right?
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: And but it does actually very much warrant a conversation because you're 100% right, like who you're with and how you know, if if you've never done psychedelics and you're curious about it, finding someone who you trust to hold space for you.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, hold hold space is such a woo-woo term, but but it's such an important thing.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: You need someone there who fully trust, that you know that you are in their hands and you are in loving care.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that's so important to be able to go through your work and to to just know that you're you know you're cared for.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: And having someone like you did is I mean, I'm so thankful that I was not with you there because I would have been emotionally scarred.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you came home shaken.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: I do think there's still a lesson in it, which which was the interesting part is like uh you know, you said our friends didn't have that experience, they had been there multiple times.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: There were some differences that we found out later, but but there's still a lesson in it.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and while it wasn't enjoyable, I I still wouldn't trade it.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: I was really glad you weren't there as well because my issues would have been amplified, you know.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but uh when I think about microdosing, which you talked about, I I never even heard that term until when I came back from Peru.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: And not only was Peru and the ayahuasca experience eye-opening for all the reasons that we already talked about, but it was also exposure to different people that were very different in mentalities, like and in experiences and upbringings.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so I remember going there and and half of the group, most of the people I didn't feel I could relate to.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: There were one or two.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: And we came from you we lived in Chicago at this point.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: So we were very Midwestern.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say we'd never left the Midwest, which matters to some degree, right?
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that I was not there with you, but the people that I understand we just hadn't encountered yet who lived like that.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so at this retreat, there's people from El Salvador and Israel and and California and um nomad who yeah, nomad all over the place.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so there were very different it was it was a wide range of people and experiences, and it felt like half of the people there were speaking a different language.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: They were speaking like um I language that you would use now.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I mean, a lot of it we learned in like conscious discipline, but essentially it's like very being very intentional with your words, and we could go into that in a deeper and feel this way, and I you know, whatever it may be.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: But um, but they were talking about a lot of things that were really new to me.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: And one of them was this idea of microdosing.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so I remember coming back, and then they had connected me with somebody, and we were in Encinitas at that time, California, and they had connected me with somebody who um was into microdosing, and and I think that was our first exposure to this idea of microdosing, which maybe you can maybe everybody doesn't know what that is.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't even know if that was my first experience uh or if it came after, but it doesn't matter.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, essentially microdosing is taking a tiny dose of usually psilocybin mushrooms, but I I microdosed peyote for a small period of time.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: Have you micro-dosed anything else?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: You microdose LST for a period of time.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um and essentially it's not like a hero's dose is what we're talking about.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's what they call like a journey.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: You have a hero's dose, you have a large dose to the point where you're fully in it.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: You can't really function.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: You couldn't, you couldn't work or drive a car, or like you, you're just you're in another realm at that point.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: And microdosing is not that at all.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's a very tiny shift in how you feel.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you may not even really realize that almost imperceptible.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and I think the best example I have for for myself of microdosing is I remember specifically one time I was having a conversation with one of our boys, and he was on a very long tangent, getting taking forever to get to the point.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, I can be very impatient sometimes.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: So in my head, normally I'd be like, can we just get, you know, can we just get there?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: And instead, in this particular moment, I remember thinking, like, oh, he's a storyteller.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: He's going to tell stories, and that's gonna serve him.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: And and so I wasn't in a rush.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: I was able to see it differently.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what it gives you.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's just this small shift in your perception that I don't know how you would get otherwise.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I think um when I've described it to people, I would say that most of the time throughout the day, because it's often done as a day thing, right?
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's not um throughout the day, you won't notice anything different, or I wouldn't.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: And at the end of the day, I may reflect back and say, oh, I was a little more patient today, or I was a little happier today, or whatever it might be.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: It it was almost only upon reflection that I noticed anything different.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think that kind of supports what you're saying.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: But microdosing is really like taken off.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's it feels like it's a very common thing among, again, maybe it's our circle, or maybe it's broader.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I find it fascinating uh partially because like for me, this example of like uh what is or isn't acceptable, there was always this like term of like mommy juice, which was like moms needing wine to get through the day with little kids, right?
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that was like totally fine and fun, and there was social media, whatever.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: And at least kind of like what I've witnessed is it seems like the mommy juice is now microdosed in mushrooms, probably not everywhere, but like in our world.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I I'm curious of the mom conversations one, is that true?
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: And then two, the mom conversations around that.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I can't speak with what's true around you know the country.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think that we live in a very unique place.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: Miami is is uh international and it's progressive, and I think that the beautiful thing about Miami is there's everything's here, right?
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: So like it's really hard to be weird in Miami.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you can just live however you want to live, and there's always somebody who's gonna be more outrageous than you.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: But here, I think 100%, I mean it's you know, I won't be careful and not get anybody involved, but it's it's become very normal in our circles where it's not hidden, it doesn't need to be hidden, it's widely talked about and completely acceptable, right?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's interesting because when you talk about mommy j mommy juice, like that's one thing.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: The other side of that is like something like 50% of women are on antidepressants.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: And many of these psychedelics have been studied for depression and anxiety and PTSD with remarkable results and without all of the side effects of an antidepressant.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: And yet, you can take an antidepressant without much of a social stigma anymore, right?
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're so common that everyone knows somebody's on antidepressants.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I think that um, which I'm glad that it's openly discussed, right?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think anything should be swept in the closet.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: It just creates shame where there's no need to be sh feel shame.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: But there's this other side culture where maybe psilocybum would work just as well as the antidepressant, but the psilocybom is still kind of fringe.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's counterculture.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, when you look at the there's a lot of books about the history and documentaries about the history of psychedelics.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so there are organizations like organizations like MAPS that are doing a lot of work to study and share the studies and advance psychedelics for the reasons that you're talking about.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: Because um, you know, the side effects, I mean, it's it's actually the reason you started the entire company, right?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: Your your company motive.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: The side effects of pharmaceutical drugs are are can be massive.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so if there's a more natural and better alternative, it's at least worth exploring.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, not on your I'm not suggesting on your own, but like as a as a culture, because there are dangers of being on antidepressants and then experimenting with psychedelics.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think that that that is a great point about the acceptable norms.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's the same example of the alcohol and the and the over-the-counter drugs, and they may not be better, they actually may be worse.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: When I think about psychedelics historically, one of the more fascinating things that I found out was my mom's in the program, she's an AA, and so I'm I've been around recovery much of my life, and so not that I'm an expert in it, but I hear enough or know enough to understand some of it.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: And there's the the guiding kind of like principles of AA are are in what's called the big book.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a a gentleman who founded the AA movement named Bill W.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and if you look back historically, Bill W uh was experimenting experimenting with psychedelics when he came up with the program.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_02: And they were actually he was trying to research it as a part of recovery.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: And then the psychedelic movement, you know, the counterculture of the 70s pushed it into this really um gray, uh not gray, illegal space and suppressed all the studies and the information.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of it that's resurfacing now, but when you understand that history, it actually makes it more fascinating because there was a time where this was these uh psychedelics were like heralded as the like as the saving compounds, the magic compounds that we discovered that can help heal addiction and can help uh depression and anxiety, and then they got pushed into into the illegal realm and now they're resurfacing.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: Which i I'm actually glad you brought up addiction because you know we've had that conversation recently of how many people, we know so many people who have lost their lives to addiction.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's tragic.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I wonder, like, if psychedelics were more readily available and that was a treatment option, if you will, would all of those people have have still had to have the fate that they had?
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know, I don't know that anybody knows that answer, but I I do think that we're getting we're getting there though, we're making progress.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think Eli Lilly just brought um a psilocybomb company, and I guess we'll see what that turns out.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Too, you know.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm hopeful that that it becomes another option, another tool in the tool belt because addiction is really hard.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: We've seen firsthand like how hard it is to beat addiction.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: And to have another tool is is just really important.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: But it also like, you know, when you talk about psychedelics, like none of them are addictive.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: That that was going to be my comment was that of all those people, which unfortunately it's a lot, of people that we know that have struggled with addiction and or lost their lives to it, none of them have been through psychedelics.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh a lot of alcohol involved there, a lot of prescription drugs, um, cocaine.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean heroin.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_02: But when you think about two of those four that you just mentioned, two are legal and socially acceptable.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the the scary part to me about drugs, I've said this before because I think it's really impactful, is the scary thing about what's acceptable is what it can lead to.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, I've read stories about the college athlete, star college athlete who sprains his ankle, goes to the doctor, they give him pain pills, he gets hooked, he keeps getting more.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: Once he can't get more, he starts buying them on the street, which is expensive.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: Once he can't buy them on the street anymore, he's addicted at this point, and pain pills, aka opioids are physically addictive.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so now he ends up buying heroin because he needs to fill that fix.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's never been the scary part is there's never been a smoother, simpler path from not wanting, not doing any drug to being heroin addicted, dying an overdose, as there is now, because of the norm and the acceptance and the widespread availability of prescribed opioids.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's just a really scary thing that when you don't question what's normal and what's acceptable, alcohol, pain, whatever it may be, and you lump them all together and say they're all bad, it just doesn't open up a dialogue to even consider.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: It makes me think of I saw, this was months and months ago, but on Instagram, and there was a dad who was sharing his son's story, and his son I think he he died of an overdose for sure, and I think it was fentanyl that was involved.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if it was prescription pills that turned into heroin or just prescription pills, but the amount of comments on this man's posts that were hateful was horrific.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like it literally makes me want to cry because people automatically want to judge saying like because he took a drug almost that he deserved the fate that he got.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I I guess I'm just so passionate about like speaking, like if you are that closed-minded and cold-hearted to post that on a grieving father's, I mean, who's trying to spread information so that it doesn't happen to other kids, like you have some serious self-reflection to do.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like you need psychedelics so that maybe the issue.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: You, yes, you need to go have a psilocybin journey so that you can feel empathy and can feel other people's pain and get out of your own hatred.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it leads to the same the same topic, which is like this black and white, good or bad um perception is dangerous, right?
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_02: Whether it's around drugs or anything.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think my mom's a a great example of how, you know, she she has her sober living house here.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_02: She has a sober living house here in Miami, and she has uh resources, people that she brings over to educate the women that live there.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: And one of them was uh this gentleman who educates on Narcam, which I didn't know what it is.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't either.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: But it's uh it's a nasal spray that if you're overdosing, um I believe especially from an opioid, but it it could be broader.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: I thought it was fentanyl specifically, but which is an opioid uh that that it will revive you.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um buys you time.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and there is a lot of negativity around that where people will think, or people will say, well, they're just gonna go overdose again.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: And there may be examples of people in addiction that that's true.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: But what this guy preached and what my mom shared with us and what was so impactful is just because you decide to experiment with something doesn't mean you deserve to die.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: And that that supports what that what you were saying about these people on social media, and for that reason, we have it.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: We have Narcam now because who knows where life leads us.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we've clearly said we um I think intentionally use some substances at times.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, our kids are growing up and they're growing up in Miami, in a city where there's access to a lot of things.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the one thing we've communicated to them so far that supports this is like the only real re rule is don't die.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because I don't want them to be, we don't want them to be afraid that they did something wrong, they did a drug, and and they don't want to call the the ambulance because they're afraid they're gonna be punished by us.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: And we're definitely not condoning to do everything, but the example that's it's not on drugs, but that I was talking to them about the other day was like if you do something that gets you in trouble, just take your medicine and be done with it.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_02: Don't run from it because you know, think about the kid that does something and then runs from the cop and then gets hit by the car because he's you know running and then dies.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like that's that's the ultimate thing, not the mistake that we all make.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think in the drug context, it's just really important to frame up like just because you've tried something doesn't mean you did you don't deserve compassion too.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that you know, we had the privilege, if you will, to be able to experiment when we were young without having to worry that we were gonna end up dying from it, right?
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean really like you know, the things you you've done quite a few drugs, right?
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: And like generally speaking, you didn't have to worry about that.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: You didn't have to worry about it being leased with fentanyl, and that one time you try something is your last.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and that it's a sad, harsh reality.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that I mean that could be a whole another conversation, but I think that having open, honest conversations about drugs in general, and about narcam, and about curiosity, and about you know, all of it is just so important, and and then there's never been a more important time because we're all gonna make mistakes, we're curious human beings, and and maybe it's not even a mistake sometimes.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_02: I was just gonna say that.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, depending on what we're talking about, like I think trying math or heroin is probably a mistake, whatever.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know that you can reframe it any other way.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like you just don't touch those things.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: But most drugs, like it's just normal to experiment, and and no one should have to die over their curiosity.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I I think it ultimately goes back to where it started, which is just like we were talking about our own experiences and our own reframing, and we're adults that are still trying to figure out exactly what's right and wrong and right for us at this time, and you know, at this time that includes it doesn't include alcohol and it does include mushrooms, right?
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's also being open to new information, which is always being surfaced and considering something and not being anchored or stuck in an opinion.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: But as with all these conversations, this isn't the beginning.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, as with all these conversations, this isn't the end, it's just the beginning.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, I think the question is what is your framework around drugs and and have you put any thought or intention behind, you know, if that's right or wrong and and if it's a good thing.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: And is it working for you?
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: And is it the way that you want to see it?
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what you learned to believe about alcohol or drugs, is that still serving you?
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the most productive version of that question is the broadest framing of drugs to include everything from you know caffeine again to the prescription drugs, to the overcount of the drugs, to the illegal drugs, to alcohol, to cigarettes.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because um, you know, we have both gone through our journey uh with every one of those categories where we may limit caffeine at times, and then other times we may overdose.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: In loose terms.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_02: So um, I think we'll we'll leave it where we started.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: All right, it's been fun.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining us.