Latest / The Week in Bible Prophecy / Is Israel an Apartheid State? | Graham Keelan

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Is Israel an Apartheid State? | Graham Keelan · The Week in Bible Prophecy

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Speaker 1: The Week in Bible Prophecy, a Prophecy Watchers podcast.
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Speaker 2: Welcome everybody to the podcast today. I am sitting here
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Speaker 2: with my good friend Graham, all the way from England
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Speaker 2: and the UK.
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Speaker 3: Welcome Graham, Thank you mon dog.
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Speaker 2: Many of you might know Graham from some other podcasts
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Speaker 2: we've done. Are really series. We've done what was the
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Speaker 2: even brought the name of the series now it's going
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Speaker 2: that's whose Land? So we've done a lot on Israel.
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Speaker 2: We've talked about really that's right, the modern We did
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Speaker 2: what ten twelve sessions on the modern founding of Israel
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Speaker 2: and its history from all the way back whose land
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Speaker 2: is it? Going back to God to Abraham, all the
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Speaker 2: way through to modern times. And also we have here
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Speaker 2: on our desk a UK flag, an American flag, and
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Speaker 2: an Israeli flag and in that other series, which we're
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Speaker 2: not going to get rehash at here, but what we're
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Speaker 2: going to ask today is is Ra all apartheid state? And
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Speaker 2: we're going to get there. But the flags that we
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Speaker 2: have here talk you mentioned this little earlier. Why do
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Speaker 2: we have these three flags?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, so very briefly I thought we were doing Anglo
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Speaker 1: American summit, you know, at Israel because really what I'm
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Speaker 1: trying to recover is and we've mentioned this before in private,
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Speaker 1: and that this the the Israel story, the Monastery of
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Speaker 1: Israel story is a British story even more than it's
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Speaker 1: anybody else's story, because we did that series.
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Speaker 3: It goes all the way back to the Restorationist movement.
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Speaker 1: The Puritans, and then the Zionism which began with with
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Speaker 1: Evangelicalism in Britain, and then and then of course you know,
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Speaker 1: Jewish Zionism, you know, really was fronted by British Jews,
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Speaker 1: you know, and it was it was opposed mainly or
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Speaker 1: mostly not most vociferously by British Jews, some in the cabinet.
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Speaker 1: So we did the Moses Monti fury thing. So it's
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Speaker 1: a part of the story which has been has been
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Speaker 1: left out because everybody just goes to nineteen forty eight
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Speaker 1: or even like nineteen seventeen, you know, the Bappol Decoration,
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Speaker 1: which is really Israel's founding document when it gets incorporated
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Speaker 1: into international law. But it was really just it was
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Speaker 1: a British intention to do this. And then so so
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Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, there's the there's the British
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Speaker 1: story in all of that which has been lost. And
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Speaker 1: of course it's an empire story too with the ANZACs,
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Speaker 1: the Australian New Zealanders. They we don't want to leave
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Speaker 1: them out coming up, you know, through the Battle of
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Speaker 1: Beershiva and what have you. So that side, and of
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Speaker 1: course then America comes into this into the Zionist movement
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Speaker 1: much later into because it's not a will America is
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Speaker 1: not a will.
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Speaker 3: Power in the nineteenth century.
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Speaker 1: It's just it's very much doing its own thing here
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Speaker 1: is settling, the settling the continent. And so America really
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Speaker 1: comes into its own and becomes sort of like Israel's
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Speaker 1: major ally, you know, particularly after nineteen sixty seven. But
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Speaker 1: obviously in nineteen forty eight you have the Truman you know,
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Speaker 1: you're given the given the recognition to the States. So
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Speaker 1: but it's very it's so it's an Anglo in America.
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Speaker 1: It's an Anglo American story. And of course, you know,
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Speaker 1: I do include the anglosphere in that, you know, and
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Speaker 1: the ANZACs in that and what have you. So that's
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Speaker 1: why I just feel that it's our story, which is
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Speaker 1: why we got our flags here.
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Speaker 3: And then we've got the state of Israel left.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no doubt as we as we think about this,
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Speaker 2: there's a couple of things I want to say up front,
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Speaker 2: is that the again the question is is Israel and
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Speaker 2: apartheid state? And you and I talking about this, we
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Speaker 2: thought it would be a good idea because you you
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Speaker 2: lived in South Africa for a while, and I'll have
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Speaker 2: you talked about that. But before we even get into
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Speaker 2: some of those details, it's just you brought up earlier
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Speaker 2: the idea of Zionism, because Zionism is going to have
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Speaker 2: a part to play again in the conversation. And Zionism
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Speaker 2: is you got Jewish Zionism, and you've got Evangelical Zionism.
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Speaker 2: You got a lot of different flavors of it. But
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Speaker 2: ultimately Zionism simply is a declaration that Israel, the modern
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Speaker 2: the modern States, or even the modern people of Israel, Jews, whatever,
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Speaker 2: that they have a covenant with the land. This is
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Speaker 2: a covenant that God gave back in Genesis twelve fifth,
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Speaker 2: twelve thirteen, fifteen seventeen, reaffirmed in other places Deuteronomy that
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Speaker 2: they have a covenant to the land, which again is
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Speaker 2: part of what we discussed in the other series. But
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Speaker 2: also I just want to say as well that in
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Speaker 2: discussing this, there are people that make claims that the
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Speaker 2: modern Jews aren't real Jews, they're they're Kazars. And if people,
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Speaker 2: I just encourage people, if you want a fuller understanding
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Speaker 2: of this, or maybe in how to do it. I
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Speaker 2: created a site or a page on our site propsywatchers
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Speaker 2: dot com slash Jews made it really easy go there.
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Speaker 2: And what I did there was I have an article
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Speaker 2: by Tommy Ice from his great book Zionism and Christian Zionism,
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Speaker 2: and he does a whole chapter in there on the
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Speaker 2: Kazar theory, and it's Kazars did exist. But it's nonsense
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Speaker 2: to think that all the Jews today are Kazars, are
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Speaker 2: not real, because we have genetics to prove otherwise. Secondly,
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Speaker 2: people say that Israel, the term Israel, which appears over
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Speaker 2: twenty five hundred times the Bible, Hebrew and Jew are
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Speaker 2: all different, and so these might be Israel, these might
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Speaker 2: be Hebrews and Jews, and so they don't. And I
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Speaker 2: wrote an article showing a week covered every instance, not
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Speaker 2: so much of Israel itself, because that's twenty five hundred times,
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Speaker 2: but of the twenty five hundred you could see some characteristics,
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Speaker 2: and then I took all those and I did cover
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Speaker 2: every appearance of the word Hebrew and Jew in the
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Speaker 2: Bible and show in Old Testament and New Testament. By
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Speaker 2: the time you get to the end of looking at
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Speaker 2: the data, they are synonyms. Clearly, they are one hundred
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Speaker 2: percent synonyms. Ultimately of a Jew, Hebrew or Israelite is
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Speaker 2: someone who is a descendant of Jacob, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,
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Speaker 2: not just Abraham because that could include Ishmael and others,
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Speaker 2: not just Isaac because that could include Esau, but Jacob himself.
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Speaker 2: And so that's important. And then just one other thing
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Speaker 2: before I transition here is that this so as we
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Speaker 2: recognize that the questions I've been asking lately, just in
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Speaker 2: some of my presentations, is does Israel belong in the land? Yes,
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Speaker 2: they do, absolutely, because of that comnant, the promises that
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Speaker 2: God made. The second question is does Israel deserve to
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Speaker 2: be in the land? And the answers no, okay, and
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Speaker 2: it's not a guess, but Deuteronomy nine answers the question.
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Speaker 2: Here's Moses before they're going into the land the first time.
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Speaker 2: I mean, they haven't even got to the land yet,
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Speaker 2: and God is telling him, you're not getting this land
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Speaker 2: because you're righteous. So if that's in your head, you
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Speaker 2: get it out, because three times four times he's saying,
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Speaker 2: it's not because you're righteous. It's not because you're righteous.
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Speaker 2: In fact, you're a stubborn, stiff necked people. It's because
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Speaker 2: of my promise that I made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
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Speaker 2: And so if we clarify up front, that helps us
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Speaker 2: to put right into actice that neither one of us
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Speaker 2: believe Israel's a perfect nation, that they do everything right.
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Speaker 2: But the core is yes, they have a right to
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Speaker 2: the land based on those promises. So within that now
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Speaker 2: you have in the church these two different extremes, which
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Speaker 2: we won't get into. But on one side you have
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Speaker 2: Christians who allegedly love God. They're out preaching the Gospel,
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Speaker 2: but maybe they're Covenant theologians or replacement the elogians or
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Speaker 2: fulfillment theology. They reject that there's a future for national Israel.
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Speaker 2: And so many times they'll come in and they'll boycott Israel,
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Speaker 2: the BDS, boycost investment sanctions. They'll say, again, they're not
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Speaker 2: real Jews. And so we're trying to blunt some of that.
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Speaker 2: They'll also emphasize very strongly against Israel's failures, which there
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Speaker 2: are many. Tel Aviv is the gay capital of the
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Speaker 2: Middle East. I mean, that's certainly not honoring to the Lord.
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Speaker 2: And then on the other side, you have those that
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Speaker 2: are vastly pro Israel, but they won't evangelize them necessarily,
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Speaker 2: and they hold back and they won't They're reluctant to
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Speaker 2: criticize them. They're reluctant to be honest about Israel's imperfections.
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Speaker 2: They're reluctant to be honest about their rejection of Jesus
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Speaker 2: and their persecution of Christians in any way. So you
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Speaker 2: have those two extremes. But one of the accusations, and
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Speaker 2: this is where we'll pass it over to you. One
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Speaker 2: of the accusations is Israel's apartheid state. And so first
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Speaker 2: of all, let's do this. I mean, people who are
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Speaker 2: at least have some understanding of history recognize that one
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Speaker 2: of the greatest places ever, the most prominent places ever
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Speaker 2: in the history of the world, to have apartheid in
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Speaker 2: South Africa. So let's start. You maybe give a little
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Speaker 2: bit of history of when you were there, what you experienced,
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Speaker 2: and also to not only define but illustrate what apartheid
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Speaker 2: is and as you saw it, as you experienced it,
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Speaker 2: as it is in law, as it was in practice,
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Speaker 2: and then we can take that experience and even talk
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Speaker 2: about the South African government how they are make accusations
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Speaker 2: against Israel. I think all that was very well said,
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Speaker 2: and then we'll take that and what is that we're
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Speaker 2: seeing in Israel, right, and then we'll talk about some things.
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Speaker 3: So yeah, Floria s okay, So thank him on us.
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Speaker 1: So yeah, it's a word bending around like like many
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Speaker 1: other words. But people actually really don't know what went
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Speaker 1: on there, and the people that do, I say, are
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Speaker 1: being disingenuous when they when they compare the Israel situation
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Speaker 1: to to to South Africa. So I was there really
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Speaker 1: my formative years. I moved my parents moved there when.
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Speaker 3: I was ten.
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Speaker 2: You were born world, I was.
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Speaker 3: I was born in England, Manchester, England. So we did
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Speaker 3: have a little scooting around.
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Speaker 1: We went to Australia for three years, came back, kind
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Speaker 1: of didn't settle, so went out to South Africa. So
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Speaker 1: this is like in the in the in the seventies,
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Speaker 1: mid seventies, and we kind of like got there just
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Speaker 1: as the Soweto riots really were sort of like kicking
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Speaker 1: off that. I think that was the following year. I
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Speaker 1: think that was June seventy six, the Soweto riots. But
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Speaker 1: of course, you know, you go there as a as
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Speaker 1: a young lad. You don't know anything, to see lions
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Speaker 1: in the street, and you know, you go into Africa, right,
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Speaker 1: And then we were taking to this little town, you know,
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Speaker 1: when we land at the airport those days, it was
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Speaker 1: jan Smott's airport, and we go into a place called Springs.
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Speaker 3: Oh it sounded, it sounded wonderful spring.
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Speaker 2: And you're what about ten?
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Speaker 1: I was ten Colorado Springs, you know, yea spring, not
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Speaker 1: a drop of water in the side. There was no
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Speaker 1: spring there, There was no there were no lions there.
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Speaker 3: But anyway, it was hot.
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Speaker 1: It was human because we were English and so you know,
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Speaker 1: we even suffered going through my schooling there, which is
10:37
Speaker 1: my formative years. You know, when you're ten, you don't
10:39
Speaker 1: know anything. As you get older, then begin the question.
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Speaker 1: Certainly as I'm coming out of the last couple of
10:45
Speaker 1: years of my schooling. So I leave school at eighteen,
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Speaker 1: you realize something is very severely wrong here, and of
10:54
Speaker 1: course I never I was a little bit persecuted by
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Speaker 1: the you know, by the African is there, you know,
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Speaker 1: because I'm still copying it for the Bull War and
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Speaker 1: you know it's like okay, well that was a while
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Speaker 1: back now, you know, so.
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Speaker 2: It wasn't even you.
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Speaker 3: Well it wasn't me, you know, sorry, it wasn't me.
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Speaker 1: I didn't put you know, I didn't put Omar in
11:12
Speaker 1: concentration camp or anything. But anyway, so that aside, so
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Speaker 1: I grew up in this system and a party. It
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Speaker 1: means it means separateness, it means it's a bit like
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Speaker 1: holy you know, it means we are, it means separate development.
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Speaker 1: So in other words, and it was institutionalized in law,
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Speaker 1: in parliament or the judiciary, but it was in culture,
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Speaker 1: in education, in everything.
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Speaker 2: Did it When did that get codified in the law?
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Speaker 2: I believe so not exactly. Yeah, just rough we're talking
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Speaker 2: like sixteen hundred.
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Speaker 1: No, no, no, no. So nineteen nineteen forty eight is
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Speaker 1: when the National Party, the Ruin National Party really saw
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Speaker 1: it begins to put their foot down. The guy, the
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Speaker 1: president who did it, and I can't remember the day
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Speaker 1: it was, so it was henryk f vot I think
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Speaker 1: was the was the prime minister who really set the
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Speaker 1: apartheight laws.
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Speaker 2: So this is a a white English guy, yeah, putting
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Speaker 2: into law.
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Speaker 1: No, no, he's not England. He's an Africana. He's a
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Speaker 1: he's a bore. Yeah, so he's so so South Africa.
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Speaker 3: That's good.
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Speaker 1: Helped me understand that South Africa had really two white communities, right.
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Speaker 1: It had a white community which is kind of came
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Speaker 1: out of the the English settlers of eighteen twenty.
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Speaker 3: They went to Cape Town.
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Speaker 1: But it also had the settlers.
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Speaker 3: Which came out of.
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Speaker 1: Out of they were called the Boer Republics, but they
12:40
Speaker 1: came out of they came out of Holland.
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Speaker 3: They were the Dutch.
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Speaker 1: Okay, right, so you know, so you had these and
12:48
Speaker 1: they spoke at they spoke a different language of Africans.
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Speaker 1: It was a it was it was a mixture between Dutch.
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Speaker 3: And German and then their own their own thing and.
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Speaker 1: The and the the English and the and the bulls fought.
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Speaker 1: That's just this, this is what the bull Wars were about.
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Speaker 2: So you have two white, two European groups fighting on
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Speaker 2: the African continent each other.
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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, that was so the Boors moved, they moved
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Speaker 1: for further north, you know, and settled, settled a couple
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Speaker 1: of provinces. One was called the Orange Free State, the
13:19
Speaker 1: other one was trans Var across the River Var. So
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Speaker 1: that's kind of how that developed. But in so in
13:27
Speaker 1: South Africa itself, in the in the in the white
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Speaker 1: education system, you had English speaking schools and you had
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Speaker 1: Africans speaking schools. Now, if you were in an English
13:37
Speaker 1: speaking school, that was that was. That was like your
13:39
Speaker 1: your mother and your mother tongue, that was your mother language.
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Speaker 3: They weren't English people there.
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Speaker 1: They just came out of a different culture, you know,
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Speaker 1: maybe came out of the eighteen twenty settlers. And so
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Speaker 1: you learned Africans as a second language, okay, right, which
13:54
Speaker 1: I had to learn, which I did not enjoy. And
13:57
Speaker 1: so and then you had you had the what's called the.
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Speaker 3: Bos So they were like the Afrikaners.
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Speaker 1: They so they were they came straight out of the
14:05
Speaker 1: you know, that Dutch stream of settlers which began in
14:10
Speaker 1: I think it so if I remember our history sixteen twenty,
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Speaker 1: I don't know what it was, goes the way back
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Speaker 1: sixteen fifty six. I think April is six or something.
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Speaker 1: It's coming back to me Mondo, I think it was there.
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Speaker 1: You know, a guy called Jan van Riebeck. He settled
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Speaker 1: the colony there and then the English moved in later
14:27
Speaker 1: on it took over. So so you had this system
14:30
Speaker 1: so so within within the white system, but then the
14:34
Speaker 1: Africanas then and then they would learn it, so they
14:37
Speaker 1: would you know, learn English, you know, as a second language,
14:41
Speaker 1: so you were educated, even Africans who were educated in English. Right,
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Speaker 1: but the white community there had had had they facto monopoly.
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Speaker 1: I mean it was institutionalized whether you were of the
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Speaker 1: coming from an English speaker South African or an Afrikaans
15:00
Speaker 1: South Africa. And so that is what the apartheid system
15:04
Speaker 1: was about. Now me as an Englishman, I had no
15:08
Speaker 1: political rights there. I had no set you know, we
15:10
Speaker 1: just I had to work visa or something like that.
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Speaker 2: So the separation was between the two white people.
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Speaker 1: Not really, I mean there was cultural separation.
15:20
Speaker 2: But that's not really what we're that's not a parthe eight, no, No,
15:23
Speaker 2: that's just like that was just that.
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Speaker 3: So at the time I was there, if I remember
15:27
Speaker 3: the numbers, there are about five million.
15:29
Speaker 1: Whites and I think they are about twenty million blacks.
15:33
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, so.
15:35
Speaker 1: And then you had an Indian population, you had a
15:38
Speaker 1: colored population. So the colored population is what they were called.
15:42
Speaker 1: They were like they came really for, they were called
15:45
Speaker 1: cape collars.
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Speaker 3: So in other words, it's.
15:47
Speaker 1: When the settlers earlier on they began to inter marry
15:51
Speaker 1: with the blacks, and so they produced a mixed race. Okay,
15:55
Speaker 1: all right, and then you had the pure you know,
15:58
Speaker 1: tribal black black tribes you know, of of of Africa.
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Speaker 1: So that that's so that's where the cultural distinction is.
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Speaker 1: You know, so when we talk about collads now that
16:13
Speaker 1: those are mixed raced, right, okay, So because some of
16:16
Speaker 1: them just just took black black black wives and or
16:20
Speaker 1: not any taken as wise, or it would maybe have
16:23
Speaker 1: you know, have children through their black slaves, that sort
16:25
Speaker 1: of thing, so.
16:26
Speaker 3: You would have the colors.
16:28
Speaker 2: And so that's a great brings up a great point.
16:30
Speaker 2: So during this early time, there was slavery there.
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Speaker 1: Oh yes, yes, yes, yeah, there was, yeah, there was that.
16:37
Speaker 3: There was slavery.
16:38
Speaker 1: But also but at the time of the but certainly
16:42
Speaker 1: from the there was there was discrimination. And certainly I
16:46
Speaker 1: mean the British Empire sort of put an end to
16:49
Speaker 1: the slave trade. If I get the dates if I
16:52
Speaker 1: remember about eighteen o seven thereabouts, you know, through the
16:56
Speaker 1: actions of William Wilberforce. So so they put their entire
16:59
Speaker 1: name to completely demolish a slave, the trans nineteen slave trade. So,
17:06
Speaker 1: but then Britain abolished slavery ownership itself, and I think
17:11
Speaker 1: that law was passed random at eighteen thirty or eighteen thirty.
17:15
Speaker 3: Three in all of its colonies.
17:16
Speaker 1: Yes, it was completely you could you could not own
17:19
Speaker 1: a slave. But obviously, you know, the issue with slavery
17:24
Speaker 1: sort of sort of continues, you know. So so England
17:28
Speaker 1: Britain never fought a civil war like you guys did
17:30
Speaker 1: over slavery because it became a national institution, a national
17:34
Speaker 1: endeavor to eradicate the slave trade, the Transit nineteen slave trade,
17:39
Speaker 1: and then also slavery itself, ownership of you know, ownership
17:43
Speaker 1: of slaves. So that But so South Africa was developed,
17:47
Speaker 1: it was, it was, it was, it was both an
17:49
Speaker 1: English and a Dutch colony. So this is where you
17:52
Speaker 1: get the bifurcation in terms of the cultural In the
17:55
Speaker 1: white section, you get the two groups of white. But
17:58
Speaker 1: the paratheis system was set up to for white supremacy
18:03
Speaker 1: over every other color group.
18:05
Speaker 3: Okay, right, roughly what you're.
18:08
Speaker 1: Well again, yeah, we get so forty eight and I
18:10
Speaker 1: don't I can't remember exactly when for Foot brought it in,
18:13
Speaker 1: but you're talking about post war, but there was always
18:15
Speaker 1: like racial discrimination, don't get you know, but it's the
18:19
Speaker 1: system was legalized, the system was instituted, right, so this
18:23
Speaker 1: is now separate development and of course, and then these
18:26
Speaker 1: are parthe laws. What they did, they enforced this this
18:30
Speaker 1: particular separation. So you had a separate legal system, judiciary,
18:37
Speaker 1: you had a separate education.
18:38
Speaker 3: I mean, everything was separate.
18:41
Speaker 1: Again into some of the practical details of it. But
18:45
Speaker 1: the when I was there in eighty four, I remember
18:49
Speaker 1: they were they were they were going to have a
18:51
Speaker 1: constitutional reformation, reforms and they were Yeah. I wasn't allowed
18:57
Speaker 1: to vote in that, but I remember it distinctly, you know,
19:00
Speaker 1: because they wanted to change one system into another system.
19:03
Speaker 1: It's called the tricameral parliament that they had. And it's
19:06
Speaker 1: interesting because in this tricameral parliament, they had a one
19:10
Speaker 1: hundred and centy eate member white House of Assembly, right
19:15
Speaker 1: which called the Single Chamber. They had an eighty five
19:18
Speaker 1: member colored House of Representatives, and they had a forty
19:22
Speaker 1: five member House of Delegates. So, but the blacks, you know,
19:29
Speaker 1: the African communities who were not colored, you know, who
19:32
Speaker 1: were not part of that mixed race, they had no
19:35
Speaker 1: political rights whatsoever.
19:37
Speaker 3: They had to carry past books.
19:40
Speaker 1: It was the cause of some riots, the Sharkfeld riot
19:42
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty. So if you were black, you could
19:45
Speaker 1: not move freely. If you were black, you simply could
19:48
Speaker 1: not move freely.
19:50
Speaker 3: Eventually they came.
19:51
Speaker 1: To create these what was called these Bantustans where they're
19:55
Speaker 1: black homelands. They're overseen by the South African regime as
20:01
Speaker 1: it were. But your sort of your your I suppose
20:06
Speaker 1: maybe a kin to something like a reservation, you know,
20:09
Speaker 1: and you can have your you do your own thing there.
20:12
Speaker 1: But you could not pass, you could simply you had
20:14
Speaker 1: no really freedom of travel, and a policeman and the
20:17
Speaker 1: police state. It was a police state in the end.
20:19
Speaker 1: It was brutal. I saw some of those those cops,
20:22
Speaker 1: you know, with what they did, whip, they would whip them,
20:26
Speaker 1: they would do everything, you know, and you had to
20:27
Speaker 1: you had to show your past book anywhere you went.
20:31
Speaker 1: But what so you could see straight away that it's
20:35
Speaker 1: a rigged system. You know, the one hundred and seventy
20:36
Speaker 1: eight member white parliament, of course, and then when they're
20:39
Speaker 1: when they're doing the voting for the state president. They
20:43
Speaker 1: had this electoral college. But again it was rigged. I'm
20:46
Speaker 1: just getting the notes. It it was rigged for the
20:49
Speaker 1: whites because I think they had fifty five members.
20:52
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, here we go. He to elect the state president.
20:55
Speaker 1: He was to be selected from among the members of
20:57
Speaker 1: the tricameral parliament, an eighty eight member electoral college composed
21:02
Speaker 1: of fifty white it's twenty five college of thirteen Indians each.
21:06
Speaker 1: Well there's more whites then, and there are Indians and
21:08
Speaker 1: colors put together, right, So you're never going to get
21:10
Speaker 1: a black president. You're never going to get an Indian president.
21:12
Speaker 1: You're never going to get a colored president.
21:15
Speaker 3: It's rigged.
21:15
Speaker 1: And a lot of the college and the Indian representatives,
21:19
Speaker 1: I remember at that time, boycotted the elections. They won't
21:23
Speaker 1: they won't partake of it, you know. I mean, it's
21:26
Speaker 1: the same with the judiciary.
21:28
Speaker 3: It's it's it's it's it was always like one law
21:32
Speaker 3: for them and one law for the other.
21:33
Speaker 1: But if you get into the practical aspects of a
21:36
Speaker 1: party and we'll move quickly through this.
21:40
Speaker 3: I just I remember it's like living it.
21:42
Speaker 1: I got an education you could you could not pay for,
21:45
Speaker 1: but I got an education which was at the expense.
21:49
Speaker 3: Of you know, of a brutal system. Gefef what I'm saying.
21:54
Speaker 1: You see how people treat each other, you see, you know,
21:57
Speaker 1: you see an all for you know, because they think
22:00
Speaker 1: they thought they were the chosen people.
22:02
Speaker 3: So you had living arrangements.
22:04
Speaker 1: People were forced to live in designated areas based on race,
22:08
Speaker 1: for example, the group Areas act. I remember that forced
22:10
Speaker 1: people certain races to live in specific areas in the
22:14
Speaker 1: white home, so you could have you can have like
22:18
Speaker 1: and I'm just going to use the terms that that
22:21
Speaker 1: were used. It's not racist. So you would have a
22:26
Speaker 1: maid or a servant, you know, and you would have
22:28
Speaker 1: you could maybe have servant quarters at the back of
22:30
Speaker 1: your house. But it was like it was you wouldn't
22:33
Speaker 1: you wouldn't put your dog in there. I kept my
22:35
Speaker 1: rabbits in the servants quarters, right, but these were the
22:39
Speaker 1: servants quarters. Maybe there was a toilet of flushing toilet.
22:43
Speaker 3: There, you know.
22:45
Speaker 1: And so if you had a maid coming into your house,
22:47
Speaker 1: you know, she would she could sleep overnight, but you
22:49
Speaker 1: had to get special sort of permission to do all
22:52
Speaker 1: and a lot of times they want the system was
22:55
Speaker 1: they would deliberately separate families.
22:57
Speaker 3: So they'd send the husband off.
22:59
Speaker 1: To to work, you know, in the north of the country,
23:03
Speaker 1: in the mine, somewhere way way away from his.
23:07
Speaker 3: Wife and his family.
23:08
Speaker 1: So you you know, divorce rates were high, everything like that.
23:12
Speaker 2: You're saying like that, So they're sending a black husband
23:15
Speaker 2: away from his life.
23:16
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yes, there's.
23:18
Speaker 1: Nothing about white here, no, yeah, yeah, no, this is
23:20
Speaker 1: all yeah, yeah, this is all so. But most of
23:23
Speaker 1: the blacks lived in townships. And the weirdest thing was
23:25
Speaker 1: I remember so like growing up, you knew you knew
23:28
Speaker 1: more about a party outside of South Africa than you
23:30
Speaker 1: did in because it was the broadcasting company at the time,
23:35
Speaker 1: South Iving Broadcasting Company Corporation. It was controlled by the state.
23:39
Speaker 1: So we're going to tell you what you can see
23:42
Speaker 1: what you can see. And if you were white, you
23:44
Speaker 1: never went into a black township. I had a brother,
23:46
Speaker 1: I mean I know he did a couple of times
23:49
Speaker 1: because he had a friend in that, but you just didn't.
23:50
Speaker 1: You just didn't go. This is called separate development. And
23:54
Speaker 1: so when you're going through the schooling system. You have
23:57
Speaker 1: a better education than the blacks. They do get an education,
23:59
Speaker 1: but it's not thing like you've got. So when you're
24:02
Speaker 1: going through the system, and imagine that, So you have
24:05
Speaker 1: a you have a gentleman who's who's who's doing your garden? Right,
24:09
Speaker 1: he's he's mowing the lawn and what have you. So
24:12
Speaker 1: you call the made girl and you call him boy, right, okay,
24:20
Speaker 1: And and he can be sixty, he can be fifty,
24:24
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. And you're like a three year old,
24:27
Speaker 1: five year old just learning to speak, and what you'd
24:29
Speaker 1: call hey boy, okay, it is. It was absolutely evil
24:35
Speaker 1: and absolutely brutal and demeaning and design that way.
24:40
Speaker 3: It was designed that way.
24:41
Speaker 1: But it's also designed that you didn't think anything was
24:44
Speaker 1: wrong that you come through the education system. And yeah,
24:48
Speaker 1: they know their place. You know, they don't have to
24:50
Speaker 1: they don't get the vote. Yeah, well they'd have to
24:52
Speaker 1: pay taxes either, you know. Well maybe they want to
24:54
Speaker 1: pay taxes because they want to vote, you know, so
24:57
Speaker 1: because it's their country too. So it's but it's this
24:59
Speaker 1: I idea of white supremacy, and everything was segregated. I
25:04
Speaker 1: mean everything, I just I just remember the train carriages
25:08
Speaker 1: you'd have. You'd be on the same train, but you
25:10
Speaker 1: would have two carriages for whites and you had maybe
25:12
Speaker 1: four carriages for blacks. All right, Education was completely segregated,
25:18
Speaker 1: the benches. This is seventies, eighties until the part eight falls.
25:24
Speaker 3: Okay, right, this is this is not that long.
25:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, you go into benches, you would have separate parks
25:30
Speaker 1: for whites and separate parts for blacks. You'd have separate
25:32
Speaker 1: beaches for whites. You'd have separate beaches for blacks. You'd
25:36
Speaker 1: see a bench with a sign net blunkers which meets Afrikaans.
25:39
Speaker 3: For whites only. You can't sit on the same bench.
25:43
Speaker 1: You had separate entrances into shops and buildings white again
25:50
Speaker 1: that that sign, you know, blancers, net blunkers, whites only
25:55
Speaker 1: through here obviously something you couldn't go into restaurants if
25:58
Speaker 1: you were black. You would because some there were white
26:01
Speaker 1: only restaurants. You know, separate buses where you'd have white
26:06
Speaker 1: bosses and black bosses, but you wouldn't. It's not even
26:09
Speaker 1: separate busses. You'd have separate bus stops. Okay, they would
26:13
Speaker 1: stop here's the here's the whites. You know, on their bosses,
26:16
Speaker 1: and of course you had the nice boss, right huh.
26:19
Speaker 1: So this is not even like riding in the back
26:20
Speaker 1: of the bus. This is like, no, we're not even
26:22
Speaker 1: going to do that. And then the black buss stop
26:25
Speaker 1: would be like further along and they would you know,
26:27
Speaker 1: they would be more rickety that sort of thing.
26:29
Speaker 3: It was absolutely scanless. And I remember, as I got
26:32
Speaker 3: on got.
26:32
Speaker 1: Older in the schooling system, thinking there's something wrong here,
26:37
Speaker 1: there's something wrong with this because you know, you don't know,
26:41
Speaker 1: I thing it's ten, you know, eleven, twelve, but you know,
26:42
Speaker 1: I'm getting to like sixteen seventeen, and I'm thinking, and
26:46
Speaker 1: of course then they go into the you know, they
26:48
Speaker 1: they're mandated to. I wasn't their mandatory to go into
26:51
Speaker 1: the defense force, you know, because they're going to fight,
26:54
Speaker 1: you know, the communists, you know, on the on the
26:57
Speaker 1: you know, on the the angle of there was this
27:00
Speaker 1: in barbe E Rhodesian War, the goal of Front mosen
27:03
Speaker 1: Beak and what have you. So you know, it was
27:07
Speaker 1: it was absolutely it was absolutely awful. And when you
27:11
Speaker 1: look back now and you think about how and here's
27:14
Speaker 1: the here's the saddest thing is the blacks accepted it too.
27:20
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, they were resigned, they were resigned
27:24
Speaker 1: to to to to this is it and this is
27:27
Speaker 1: this is the reality, and nothing is going to change.
27:29
Speaker 3: And of course we know sort of like what happened
27:31
Speaker 3: after that.
27:33
Speaker 2: We'll kind of tell us when when did this come
27:35
Speaker 2: to a head and a change? And you know what, you're.
27:38
Speaker 1: Well, I left, I left in I left in eighty
27:40
Speaker 1: five because they wanted to take away my British citizenship,
27:48
Speaker 1: effectively my past, and they want to naturalize me and
27:51
Speaker 1: they wanted to draft me into the and I said, no,
27:53
Speaker 1: I'm not doing this.
27:54
Speaker 3: Sorry, I'm not.
27:54
Speaker 1: I'm not fighting the wars to prop up this system.
27:58
Speaker 3: But so that was.
28:00
Speaker 1: But you know, again, at that age, you're just becoming
28:03
Speaker 1: a you're becoming aware of things. So I know when
28:06
Speaker 1: people say, you know, aparty, people don't know.
28:10
Speaker 3: You know, they just they're reading in the word. It's
28:12
Speaker 3: just a word. And this is why I mean the
28:15
Speaker 3: other thing.
28:15
Speaker 1: Toilets, of course, I mean, you would never you would
28:18
Speaker 1: never share a toilet with a black man. You would
28:22
Speaker 1: never sit on the same toilet seat as a black man.
28:24
Speaker 1: You won't sit on the same bench. You're kidding me. Wow,
28:27
Speaker 1: this is like and they had this you know, I'm
28:30
Speaker 1: going to say in Africakans if I can remember it.
28:31
Speaker 1: But they had this, you know somehow this you know,
28:34
Speaker 1: ans is immense a fund the year though, you know,
28:36
Speaker 1: we are the people of.
28:37
Speaker 3: The Lord, we are chosen.
28:40
Speaker 1: It was all religious, because I remember going to the
28:42
Speaker 1: school when and this is where I first became.
28:45
Speaker 3: Alive to the Word of God.
28:47
Speaker 1: But they would read the scriptures, you know, and of
28:50
Speaker 1: course everything there had a bent to to.
28:55
Speaker 3: To sort of prop up the system.
28:57
Speaker 1: But for me, of course, the word came into a
28:59
Speaker 1: pure I didn't know any of that.
29:01
Speaker 3: But very religious.
29:03
Speaker 2: You know.
29:04
Speaker 1: They had the National that, they had the National Church,
29:08
Speaker 1: then they had the Apostolic Faith Mission, and so they
29:12
Speaker 1: had all of this. And so it was and they
29:15
Speaker 1: were having to suppress these riots of course, you know,
29:19
Speaker 1: time and time again, because there was just continuous It
29:22
Speaker 1: was a system which.
29:23
Speaker 3: Was destined to fall. It had it had to fall.
29:26
Speaker 1: You could not maintain that system, and particularly then as
29:30
Speaker 1: nations began to put pressure on them. Yeah, I mean
29:34
Speaker 1: it's it's It was a hierarchical system based on race
29:39
Speaker 1: and the sop to the colors or the sop to
29:42
Speaker 1: the Indians.
29:43
Speaker 3: That's all. It was.
29:44
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, you know, you can also have a vote,
29:47
Speaker 1: but your vote is by sheer reference to the numbers
29:53
Speaker 1: we can give you as representatives. You're not going to
29:57
Speaker 1: overturn the white system. But then there was a guy
30:00
Speaker 1: called F. W. D. Clerk, and he was the one.
30:03
Speaker 1: He knew the writing was on the wall to pick
30:05
Speaker 1: up a phrase, and he knew that, I mean, Mandela
30:08
Speaker 1: had been in prison for decades at this time, and
30:11
Speaker 1: of course we all saw that picture of Mandela, the
30:15
Speaker 1: very moving video of Mandela coming out, you know, being
30:19
Speaker 1: released from prison, and effectively it was the end of
30:23
Speaker 1: white rule, that particular moment.
30:26
Speaker 3: That's a partype Mondo.
30:28
Speaker 2: So let's let's take that and let's transfer in our
30:33
Speaker 2: in the last ten minutes here nine minutes. When we
30:36
Speaker 2: come to the state of Israel. You've been there, I've
30:40
Speaker 2: been there. We see their basic laws, not quite a constitution,
30:47
Speaker 2: but you know, their their foundation of government. We know
30:51
Speaker 2: that there's seventy three percent of Israel is Israeli, twenty
30:57
Speaker 2: one percent is Arab in the rest there you know,
31:00
Speaker 2: the other five percent just others. In the sense of
31:04
Speaker 2: the starkest you mentioned this earlier that today people in
31:09
Speaker 2: South Africa government, they're making claims against Israel about being
31:16
Speaker 2: a party talk talk about that. I mean, yeah, I
31:18
Speaker 2: mean I just how are they able to do that?
31:20
Speaker 1: I don't know is a short answer, but I think
31:23
Speaker 1: so that's that's what mandalis. So he's an interesting character.
31:26
Speaker 1: And he sort of he said, I've got some quotes
31:29
Speaker 1: from here here because he kind of set the cause
31:32
Speaker 1: of South Africa. He's set the cause of the Palestinian
31:37
Speaker 1: cause to the South African cause, all right, and he
31:42
Speaker 1: says that his Mandela said, he said, we identify with
31:45
Speaker 1: the Palo because just like ourselves, they are fighting for
31:48
Speaker 1: the right of self determination. Our fact is a comrade
31:51
Speaker 1: in arms that we treat him as such, our freedom
31:55
Speaker 1: is incomplete. Mandela says, without the freedom of the Palestinians.
32:00
Speaker 3: There's another quote.
32:01
Speaker 1: Here, so Joe when he goes to guards of Mandela
32:05
Speaker 1: and he says he feels at home amongst compatriots. And
32:08
Speaker 1: then when Mandela died Arafat dies eleventh November two thousand
32:12
Speaker 1: and four. Nelson Mandela, who's a great man. Let's not
32:15
Speaker 1: we're not denigrate to Nelson Mandela, but he was you know,
32:19
Speaker 1: he had a way. This is what he thought. Mandela
32:23
Speaker 1: paid tribute to the palace and your leader, who he
32:26
Speaker 1: hailed as an icon. Here's what he said. He was
32:28
Speaker 1: an icon in the proper sense of the word. He
32:31
Speaker 1: was not only concerned with the liberation of the Arab people,
32:33
Speaker 1: but all of the oppressed people throughout the world, Arabs
32:36
Speaker 1: and non Arabs. And to lose a man of that
32:38
Speaker 1: stature and thinking is a great blow to all those
32:40
Speaker 1: who are fighting against depression. So the Apartheit story continues
32:45
Speaker 1: for the South African the black you know South African
32:49
Speaker 1: government regime people that we're now fighting in Palestine. And
32:53
Speaker 1: I think that's how they've made the link. But like
32:58
Speaker 1: you said, I've been to Israel. I, I've lived in
33:01
Speaker 1: South Africa, I lived in It's it's just not I mean,
33:06
Speaker 1: it's not. We We could think that we could talk
33:08
Speaker 1: about how Israel does have some constitutional problems and a
33:12
Speaker 1: constitutional crisis and maybe we should just sort of like
33:17
Speaker 1: sort of.
33:20
Speaker 2: We can and and I think, but when we go
33:22
Speaker 2: to Israel, I don't see the Palestinian bus company for
33:30
Speaker 2: only Arabs, or the Arab bus company of the Hebrew
33:33
Speaker 2: bus company. I don't see different benches. I see him
33:37
Speaker 2: mingling in restaurants. So for people to throw like that
33:44
Speaker 2: that that label on Israel. At first, what you just
33:47
Speaker 2: said is absolutely ludicrous. It does not reflect the origination
33:52
Speaker 2: of the word in its starkest sense. Would you say then,
33:58
Speaker 2: in you know, is there a one percent apartheid in Israel?
34:04
Speaker 2: I mean, is it? You know, it's easy to be
34:06
Speaker 2: inflammatory and just to roll a word around, as you
34:09
Speaker 2: said that Israel is not perfect. They have room to
34:11
Speaker 2: grow in areas, But how far, how what percentage of
34:15
Speaker 2: apartheid do we need to get to where it becomes apartheid?
34:18
Speaker 2: You know, I don't really know the answer to that.
34:19
Speaker 2: But the fact of the matter is, again what what
34:22
Speaker 2: you just described, I've never seen there, and you know,
34:25
Speaker 2: again being there many times, it's just simply not true.
34:28
Speaker 2: But that's the way inflammatory language works. And as we know,
34:33
Speaker 2: even even praising air fat Is is extremely problematic.
34:38
Speaker 3: Poks try terrasol of that idea.
34:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a murder. He's absolutely an intentional murder of
34:43
Speaker 2: innocent people. And the more the better. And this is
34:46
Speaker 2: this is where you often see the case, and maybe
34:48
Speaker 2: you could speak on it for a moment. Is do
34:50
Speaker 2: you see then I saw a few years ago, and
34:52
Speaker 2: I can't say I'm an expert by any means, but
34:54
Speaker 2: I saw where there was a there was according in
34:58
Speaker 2: South Africa, there was an attempt to repatriate the farm
35:02
Speaker 2: white farmers, the farms of white people.
35:05
Speaker 3: Yeah.
35:05
Speaker 2: I don't know if you heard about that or but
35:07
Speaker 2: do you think that now there's a reverse that there
35:10
Speaker 2: is there is a like we're going to get vengeance
35:12
Speaker 2: or reparations for all the time and and so it's
35:15
Speaker 2: kind of turned back. Is a racism against white people
35:17
Speaker 2: now in South Africa?
35:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean racism.
35:20
Speaker 1: Racism has always existed, of course. So we talked about
35:22
Speaker 1: in an apartheid system, We talked about a legalized system.
35:26
Speaker 3: Doubt was there's racism in Israel.
35:27
Speaker 1: Doubt there's racism here, there's racism and in my nation
35:30
Speaker 1: you know, because you know it's in the heart and
35:33
Speaker 1: man in a sense.
35:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, there were some.
35:35
Speaker 1: Problems in terms of the confiscation of of farms and
35:41
Speaker 1: it turned very violent. A lot of murders, a lot
35:43
Speaker 1: of South African whites murder. So I think you get
35:48
Speaker 1: you do get the vengeance aspect of things. You know,
35:51
Speaker 1: now the day of vengeance and this is nowhere. We're
35:53
Speaker 1: going to take back what you what you took from us,
35:56
Speaker 1: or what you stole from us.
35:58
Speaker 3: So you know that they have that, they have their
36:02
Speaker 3: own journey. But yeah, I know.
36:04
Speaker 1: It's been the reports I've read, it's been pretty pretty
36:08
Speaker 1: horrific for the farmers.
36:09
Speaker 2: So let me bring this up going back to Israel.
36:11
Speaker 2: Is you have Israel being founded as a Jewish state
36:16
Speaker 2: under the banner of being a democratic state. So democratic
36:20
Speaker 2: by definition is the people vote, and so what you
36:23
Speaker 2: do see recently, back in twenty eighteen, there was a
36:27
Speaker 2: law that was passed, basically the Nation State Law, which
36:32
Speaker 2: defined Jewish nationalism as being the highest order, that the
36:40
Speaker 2: Jewish Israel will always be a Jewish state, it will
36:43
Speaker 2: never be an Arab state. It cannot be an Arab state.
36:45
Speaker 2: There's plenty of those. But people say, well, yeah, but
36:48
Speaker 2: if there's enough Arabs, if they become fifty eight percent
36:52
Speaker 2: or fifty one percent, and then they vote to make
36:54
Speaker 2: it a Jewish state or an Arab state, that's the
36:58
Speaker 2: role of democracy. But yet Israel now is saying that'll
37:01
Speaker 2: never happen, and so they're being accused of being undemocratic
37:06
Speaker 2: with this law. So in one sense. This is kind
37:09
Speaker 2: of what we were talking about, is that this is
37:10
Speaker 2: the Israel dilemma in some ways that in one way
37:14
Speaker 2: they have to they have to they can't be full
37:17
Speaker 2: democratic in the United States is not a full democracy.
37:21
Speaker 2: But in that sense, they can't be a full democracy.
37:25
Speaker 2: They are choosing, and this is what they chose to
37:28
Speaker 2: be a Jewish state, and of course the ramification is
37:32
Speaker 2: what that looks like for voting now as far as
37:36
Speaker 2: I can see and what I've read and everything, and
37:38
Speaker 2: even as we talked about the Supreme Court in Israel,
37:40
Speaker 2: they said, no, this isn't a this law is not
37:43
Speaker 2: an unconstitutional The national determination is all will always be Jewish,
37:48
Speaker 2: but it doesn't take away from the rights of the
37:51
Speaker 2: average Arab Israeli to go and do his job and
37:55
Speaker 2: vote and everything. He can have parties, but they can
37:58
Speaker 2: never vote for it not to be a Jewish state.
38:00
Speaker 2: Kind of the one thing that's off limits for anybody.
38:02
Speaker 2: Imagine all the Jews decided we're going to vote this
38:04
Speaker 2: to be and they can't do that.
38:05
Speaker 1: So here's the problem the state of Israel. Because it's
38:08
Speaker 1: built out of the out of the British parliamentary system.
38:11
Speaker 1: It's based on the British parliamentary model. They don't actually
38:14
Speaker 1: have a written constitution, okay, like we don't not in
38:18
Speaker 1: the same way that the US. The US does. Is
38:21
Speaker 1: there a document we've got to fight over there? And
38:24
Speaker 1: they kind of they've always wanted to get around to
38:27
Speaker 1: write the constitution, but two things have stopped them doing it.
38:30
Speaker 3: Number one, because all the people are not in the.
38:32
Speaker 1: Land to consult for the constitutions, obviously talk about Jewish
38:36
Speaker 1: people in the land.
38:38
Speaker 3: And also because of all the wars.
38:40
Speaker 1: They fought, you know, it's just one war after the other.
38:42
Speaker 1: And they kind of said, well, the British have got
38:44
Speaker 1: along with without without having a written constitution in one document. Therefore,
38:49
Speaker 1: you know we can you know, we can get along too.
38:52
Speaker 1: So there is that aspect. And of course then their
38:56
Speaker 1: law system, like the United States law system, is based
38:58
Speaker 1: on English common law. Right, So that's that's their legacy,
39:03
Speaker 1: that's their inheritance that that's that's their legacy.
39:05
Speaker 3: I think. But but when you get into how do.
39:08
Speaker 1: You legally deal with the you know, the Palestinian let's
39:13
Speaker 1: just call it the Palestinian side, the issue the cause
39:18
Speaker 1: of you know, can you give them votes and you know,
39:22
Speaker 1: and then what what does what does that vote mean?
39:25
Speaker 1: And of course, so you know, had the whole concept
39:28
Speaker 1: of the greater Israel, So there is a there is
39:32
Speaker 1: a dilemma for Israel for sure constitutionally, and I know,
39:36
Speaker 1: we know it's going to exist all the way until
39:40
Speaker 1: the one who is going to come with the law,
39:43
Speaker 1: and it won't be English common law, it will be
39:45
Speaker 1: a kingdom law of their Messiah coming from Jerusalem to all,
39:50
Speaker 1: not just for the not just for Israel, but for
39:52
Speaker 1: all the nations. So we look forward to that day.
39:54
Speaker 1: But in the meantime, I mean, you know, could I
39:57
Speaker 1: say that the specter of a party is hanging over Israel?
40:03
Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is because of its
40:05
Speaker 1: constitutional issues that it that it you know, how do
40:09
Speaker 1: you resolve it? So just talk about that briefly. So
40:12
Speaker 1: how do you resolve this? So if you have the
40:14
Speaker 1: greater Israel thing, you got like what was it, five
40:18
Speaker 1: million Palestinians in Judea Samaria and you want to bring
40:23
Speaker 1: them in and you want.
40:25
Speaker 2: To ann exit and bring them in a citizens, you
40:27
Speaker 2: can't do it.
40:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, so then you just have to keep kicking this
40:30
Speaker 1: can down the road and then you have somebody you know,
40:34
Speaker 1: you know people sort of mondop sort of like balk
40:37
Speaker 1: at this, you know, the two states solution and say, well,
40:39
Speaker 1: you know it's dead.
40:40
Speaker 3: It's dead.
40:41
Speaker 1: It's always been dead, right, but it's the only game
40:44
Speaker 1: in town, because what what are you going to do?
40:48
Speaker 1: So the British considered the two states solution in nineteen
40:51
Speaker 1: thirty six with the Peel Commission and Decide thirty six
40:54
Speaker 1: thirty seven and decided he thought, well that's that's the way,
40:57
Speaker 1: this is the way. It's only going to be two states.
41:00
Speaker 1: The British government at the time said no, because we'd
41:02
Speaker 1: like to display so many Arabs and it's all rooted
41:04
Speaker 1: in the Baffle decoration of course. Uh that then that
41:08
Speaker 1: can was kicked by the British to the United Nations
41:10
Speaker 1: because I said, well we can't solve this, well we'll
41:12
Speaker 1: do we'll do the two state solution as well.
41:15
Speaker 3: So let's let's divide it up on what have you.
41:17
Speaker 1: The Jew said yes, the Jews said yes, The Arab
41:20
Speaker 1: said no. But even in the time of the mandate,
41:23
Speaker 1: I remember it was it was it was Kaim Weisman,
41:26
Speaker 1: he was he was you know, he was friendly terms
41:29
Speaker 1: with I think it's Faisal and he was he was
41:33
Speaker 1: anticipating a there was the idea of the greater Serious
41:36
Speaker 1: and he was anticipating a Jewish protectorate under a greater
41:40
Speaker 1: Syrians or an Arab ruling, you know, the Jews. So
41:42
Speaker 1: even they were trying to figure this problem out all
41:45
Speaker 1: the way back then.
41:46
Speaker 3: So you do have this situation.
41:48
Speaker 1: So really, even for the Israel itself, I don't see
41:51
Speaker 1: any solution other than a two state solution, right just
41:56
Speaker 1: because they don't want to annex, they can't, they can'tly
42:01
Speaker 1: and some of the sad but because what do you do?
42:04
Speaker 1: So the argument can can Israel be both the Jewish
42:07
Speaker 1: state and the democratic state that's been going on since
42:10
Speaker 1: since its birth? Can it be either one or both?
42:13
Speaker 1: So and it was interesting what we were talking earlier
42:16
Speaker 1: about the nation state law, and the Supreme Court was split, Well,
42:23
Speaker 1: it wasn't split, it was ten to one.
42:25
Speaker 3: It was law.
42:28
Speaker 2: This law, this nation state law says it's only going
42:30
Speaker 2: to be Jewish and you can only vote so unlimited.
42:33
Speaker 2: Is this constitutional?
42:34
Speaker 3: Does it?
42:35
Speaker 2: Yeah? Tense?
42:36
Speaker 1: And but there were the ten Jewish justices and the
42:40
Speaker 1: one Arab justice said no, it violates the constitution. So
42:44
Speaker 1: what we have there in any in any any judicial system,
42:47
Speaker 1: you have dissenting opinions like you do here because conservative
42:51
Speaker 1: little but there you have a split between between the
42:55
Speaker 1: Jewish and the Arab. You know, there was an Arab
42:57
Speaker 1: judge and you know he's he's he's come to the conclusion, no,
43:00
Speaker 1: this is this is unconstitutional. So so obviously the court's
43:04
Speaker 1: ruling is it is constitutional.
43:06
Speaker 3: But it's really.
43:06
Speaker 1: Interesting the demographic, the ethnics split there still there is
43:10
Speaker 1: still there between the jew and the Arab, and how
43:13
Speaker 1: is that resolved?
43:15
Speaker 2: You know?
43:15
Speaker 1: So so I know people say about that, you know,
43:18
Speaker 1: the two I'm not listen, I'm not in favor of
43:20
Speaker 1: the two states solutions.
43:20
Speaker 3: All I'm saying is practically.
43:23
Speaker 1: It's the only game in town, even for the State
43:25
Speaker 1: of Israel, because they can't you know, they don't want
43:27
Speaker 1: to annext so what are they They want to keep
43:29
Speaker 1: it obviously disputed territory, and the world says it's occupied territory.
43:34
Speaker 1: That you may say it's disputed, so we'll keep it
43:36
Speaker 1: disputed for how long? Well, it's been disputed since nineteen
43:39
Speaker 1: sixty seven, and so we know that none of this
43:44
Speaker 1: is going to get resolved in the UN or the
43:46
Speaker 1: Security Council an impossible scenario.
43:49
Speaker 3: It's an impossible scenario.
43:50
Speaker 1: So you know, so we're you know, we are waiting
43:53
Speaker 1: for the for the Messiah of Israel. And but it's
43:56
Speaker 1: just it's just again, it's more complicated, I think than
44:00
Speaker 1: that's not the people.
44:01
Speaker 2: Because I'll just say this as we end here, is
44:03
Speaker 2: that you even as you have Israel becoming more religious
44:07
Speaker 2: in its government, it never wants to be those religious people.
44:11
Speaker 2: Never wants to be the government that makes the decision
44:14
Speaker 2: for a two state solution that gives up Samaria and
44:18
Speaker 2: parts of Judea forever to an Arab state. They don't
44:23
Speaker 2: want that on their shoulders because they have a religious
44:24
Speaker 2: bend to it. They understand the covenants of God that
44:26
Speaker 2: he gave it. And so Joel three too. You know,
44:29
Speaker 2: God's upset those who divide my land. So that this
44:31
Speaker 2: is where it is. I think, you know, this has
44:33
Speaker 2: been a great conversation in saying that, you know, again,
44:36
Speaker 2: Israel is not a partaid. If you lived it, you
44:39
Speaker 2: know it. And it also is a Jewish state, and
44:42
Speaker 2: in most senses it is democratic, but it could never
44:45
Speaker 2: be purely democratic by definition. It cannot because if it's
44:49
Speaker 2: it's it's decisive decision to say we will always be
44:53
Speaker 2: a Jewish state no matter what, and that is will
44:55
Speaker 2: never is ever able to be voted out, which means
44:58
Speaker 2: again by definition, then it's not purely democratic in its
45:01
Speaker 2: fullest sense. Well, anyways, Graham, we got to get you
45:04
Speaker 2: back to your homeland. But it's been great this time.
45:08
Speaker 2: Thank you everybody for listening today. I hope this was helpful,
45:11
Speaker 2: just again to see the history and here we are.
45:13
Speaker 2: We're looking forward to the Lord. We're looking forward to
45:15
Speaker 2: the King, King Jesus to come back as the Messiah
45:18
Speaker 2: and to solve all of this.
45:20
Speaker 3: Amen. Amen,