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Mishlei 26:2 - Avian Metaphors for Gratuitous Curses (Part 1) · The Mishlei Podcast

• 0:21
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so we are on to Mishle 26-2.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_07: Um, and uh remember this is the um series of I guess riddle-like straightforward in the Mishlay of Anshe Khizkyahu.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_07: Um so we have Katsipur La Nud Kadrur Lauf Kane Kilala Skinam, and then we've got a Kree Ksiv here.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_07: Low Tavo or Low Tavo.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, Low Tavo is the Ksiv with uh an aleph, and then Lowtav with a Vov is the uh the Kree.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_07: Um so who wants to attempt to translate this?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_07: Again, the the some words here are genuinely difficult.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, Moja Okay, so like a bird that uh moves, like a bird.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I would have also said moves, yeah, then then moves, but we'll we'll we'll see that it's not so so so simple here, yeah.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_06: And a drawer can mean freedom, but I think here it means a type another type of bird.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I don't remember the type.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_06: Let's just say drawer bird for now.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_06: A drawer bird to fly, yeah.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_06: So to a free or a baseless curse either will not come or will come to him.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so a baseless curse uh will, and then let's go not uh and then let's say come to him.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I don't know how to do creeksive in our translations here.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, okay, good.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so let's look at the other translations here.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_07: Um, okay, so we got nude is to move to and fro to wander to flutter uh to show grief.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_07: So it is a bird word, apparently, also, even though like I I I assume you assume you uh also associated to um uh I don't did you associate to kinda uh to kind or to eof?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, uh to kind of novinati.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, because also for e of one of his friends comes, is la uh la nude lo, I think, which is also a weird thing, but yeah, for kind of novinodity of art.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_07: Um, so I think here let's say like a bird to I like flutter, that's a good bird word, right?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_07: Um and a drawer, uh bird to fly.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, fine.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_07: So this is the uh the BDB.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_07: Um okay, uh yeah, uh to move to and fro wondrously to flutter of a bird, and it quotes our thing.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, drawer.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_07: So this I asked David about this ahead of time.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_07: Um, and uh the BDB says swallow.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_07: And is that the right one, David?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_07: For drawer?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_07: No, sparrow.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_07: You say sparrow.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, yeah, yeah, right.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_07: So we've got, and uh when I looked at the various things, then it was uh, you know, some people said swallow uh uh swallow, some people said sparrow.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so let's say a a uh sparrow or swallow.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, uh, we're not sure.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_07: Um okay, so num says, uh, so this is an interesting one.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_07: Kadrawor, who ha atalaif.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_07: What's the atalaf?
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_07: I think that's the one that yeah, the bat.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, right.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_07: I don't know.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_07: I all I know is from art scroll.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_07: So I don't know if like this has been updated.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_07: I haven't uh consulted the uh Robe Slifkin to see what he says.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_07: But so he says drawer is uh is a bat, but a drawer I'll shame shakanenis babatim, and it's called a drawer uh because it um makes its nest, I think that's makanis, like uh kansi for, right?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_07: Um it makes its nest uh in houses, uh ki ilu hai sapovshis uh as if it were free from people.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_07: Uh ki dr who inyan chirus for dror uh uh signifies freedom, right?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_07: Umdror, as in uh proclaim freedom, like by Yobel, right?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_07: Uh so David, I'm just gonna ask you again because I know I asked you yesterday, but um, so is so is this also true of a sparrow?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, both swallows and sparrows, depending on species, could nest in people's houses like that.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, good, right.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_07: And I assume that that is a relatively rare thing among birds, right?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_07: Like statistically, like I assume most birds do not at large now.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, okay, right, all right, yeah.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so that is the Matusa.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_07: So we got a bat, uh, so let's put bat here also, okay.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_07: Um okay, so let's move this here.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_07: So then we got the Malbin who says um Katipur and Kadrur Hadrur Inamcabellas Marus.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_07: So same idea as the Matsus Dion, but he says that um uh how do you translate ina macabellus marus?
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_07: I think we have a modern English word for it.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_07: Uh yeah, inamcabelis marus.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_07: I think we say is not domesticated, right?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_07: Doesn't accept uh mastery, right?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_07: Um, and so I'm gonna say yet lives with people.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_07: So that's an again, it's another weird thing where it's not domesticated, but it like it lives among people, right?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so that's uh uh a similar thing here.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_07: All right, I'm gonna move this up.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_07: Um oh sorry, I meant to do this here.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, fine.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, then we got art school, uh, like a bird that wanders off, like a swallow that flies off.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_07: So an unwarranted curse comes back to the one who uh uh to he who utters it.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so we'll say unwarranted, um, similar to baseless.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_07: Uh Corinne says like a wandering sparrow, uh, so it gets sparrow, like a flying swallow.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_07: Oh, sorry, no, no, that's the other way around.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_07: So it all gets the wrong one.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_07: So a curse that is causeless comes home to roost.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, again, uh, these are all very similar terms, causeless, uh comes home to roost is figurative, right?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_07: Uh and then um Altar says as a bird for wandering, as a swallow for flight.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_07: Um yeah, all these people are saying swallow, David.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_07: I don't know where they get it from.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_07: Um, so a groundless curse won't come to pass.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_07: Um, I mean, I definitely're saying it based on modern Hebrew, is that correct?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_07: Or you're saying it based on knowing like that is correct.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, right, right.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_07: So, like, you know, modern Hebrew, you know, well the the biggest uh example that I always give is like um I always have to deprogram Michle students to not translate late as clown, because a lot late san is a clown, right?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_07: So like you know, it is a very, very different thing.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_07: And so there is a thing where people get the modern Hebrew lodged in their heads and then it like messes up the meaning.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_07: So um uh in this case, I actually trust the unanimity of the translations more than uh you know than uh modern Hebrew.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, anyway.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_07: All right, so then we've got I I changed the order here.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_07: Then we've got our so again, I've started to do this recently uh because I'm not proficient in um especially Targum Aramaic and then in Judeo-Arabaic uh Arabic.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_07: So we've got the claw translation of of the Targum, Hih sipra des tais v hech parchasa de farcha, hechna lovatusa de magan lo seol.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so just as a bird that flies, just as a fowl that takes flight, so is a curse given gratuitously shall not enter.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_07: Um, so and then I I had I said point out anything that like we need to notice here.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_07: So uh both it says both similes become flying.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so Lanude is not wandering, it's Davka flying.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_07: Um figura etymologica, which I have to look what up what that is.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_07: So um it is a uh a rhetorical or grammatical device where words derived from the same etymological root are you are are used close together.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_07: So sing me a song, you're the piano man.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_07: So sing and song are the same thing, so there's a certain like poetic uh characteristic to it.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_07: Um so he uh uh so the Targum has Hey Parkasa de Parcha, right?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_07: Which you don't have in Hebrew.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_07: Uh the specific bird disappears.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_07: Okay.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_07: Uh magan for chinam.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_07: Magan means uh gratis, gratis, I think it's gratis for free, for nothing, carries the same ambiguity.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_07: Uh enter rather than come.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so it will not um uh enter, presumably the house.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, it's uh so Targum uh the claude theorizes the curse stays airborne and never comes into roost.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_07: That reading may be that may be reading more into it than the translator intended, since Alal is the standard Aramaic uh equivalent to Bo, but the image is available.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, fine.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, which is true.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, I know that from um Targum uh Unklos.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_07: Uh the Targum, so this is an interesting thing also.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_07: The Targum follows the Ksiv, not the Kri, right?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_07: So it says uh Loteol, which is the Lamid Aleph.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_07: All right.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_07: Um, and then textual, okay.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_07: So then it points out that this is close to the Pshitita.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_07: Do we know what the Pshitita is?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, so the Pshitita is the Syriac Torah, which is um another Aramaic translation of the sorry of the Tanakh, uh, which is another ancient um textual witness.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_07: Um so uh fine.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_07: So I think for our purposes here, um I'm just gonna do this.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_07: Uh I'll just keep it here.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, where would I put that?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_07: I'm losing track of everything now.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_07: Hold on.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, let's just put it all on the same spot.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, and then we've got one more, which is Sadjugaon.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_07: Um, so Sadigaon, it says, uh, and um, and like a sparrow that roams, and like a dewy bird that flies, so too the gratuitous curse does not strike its mark.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so roams is another one, uh, which we'll add here that roam.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_07: Sorry, that's the talking subin.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_07: Where are we?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_07: Uh to flutter or to roam, uh, which is what uh the way Mosha translated it, I think, originally, like uh Kine.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so then it also has a bunch of notes here.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_07: Um so one lo Yat Siv.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_07: Uh the puzzle says Lo Yatsiv, it does not come.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_07: Sadigun Sadigun renders it lo y uh whatever that is, uh, which is the verb for hitting a target, striking home, or landing.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_07: This turns a spatial verb into a ballistic one.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_07: I actually don't know what ballistic means, but uh, I guess targeted, like a ballistic missile.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_07: Is that uh targeted or it blows up?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, I have no idea.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_07: Uh on his uh yeah, right, you know, those ones that just like a sneak in and like dismantle your uh ship.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_07: Um this yeah, we'll look it up later.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_07: On his reading, the point of comparison is not simply that birds are in motion, but that they never alight.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_07: So, Dovey, you mentioned this, right?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_07: That they what do you say about the insects?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Particularly with swallows, if you were to take that reading, that that's what swallows like they're always flying and flying and flying, rarely land because they're just catching swallows.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: They're catching insects, sorry.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah, okay, good.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_07: So we got our uh ornithologist here.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_07: Uh they flit and they fly and they never come down on anything.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_07: Uh the baseless curse likewise never lands on its intended target.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_07: Sadio's drawing the metaphor tighter than the Hebrew does on its face.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so he is taking a stance.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_07: So this is again a thing where, like, I don't know, like, like I wouldn't have picked up on this.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_07: All right.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_07: Um, Kafekh's lo tazik is a further step.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_07: So Kafak said, Katipur Hanod Ukadur Uf, Kakilos Hakinam Lo Tazik.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_07: It will not harm.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_07: That's a big move.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_07: Okay.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_07: Um, does not cause harm.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_07: Um, okay, um, okay, preserve the distinct verbs.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, uh, he also says it's a specific bird, but it's unclear what that is.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_07: Uh Saadia also follows the Cree.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, sorry, the Ksiv.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, and then uh Okay, then some uh Arabic stuff.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, fine.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_07: All right, so let's uh let's uh just get this and then we'll uh I'm not gonna move I'm not gonna move all of them down here.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_07: I'll trust your memory.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so I think this is enough here, right?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_07: Oh, sorry.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_07: Um I don't want to add the not taziq because I think that's more of an interpretation than a um uh than a what do you call a uh translation, yeah.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so what are the questions here?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_07: Actually, let's say we'll not um can we uh I'm trying to think we can have a because we'll not come to him, I'm trying to think we can have a word that would signify a more ballistic mean no, like a more uh um like it will not land on him.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah week is better.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_07: That's the kind of word I'm looking for, right?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_07: No, no.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, Dubit.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_07: Um what is the difference between La Nude and La Oof?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, what is the difference between La Nude and La U?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_07: Sorry, La Oof.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_07: Uh are they um synonyms or synonyms uh or two um subtly different ideas uh verbs or two radically different verbs?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, Elliot.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah, um I at first I read the translation as kind of meaning that or implying that these birds would fly off and then return with the word.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_09: So could it possibly mean that these kind of baseless you know, these baseless statements, whatever they may be, or these curses, like they don't they kind of come back to you in a way?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, it does seem like uh like yeah, you know what?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_07: I I actually I maybe uh maybe just saying return.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_07: I know that's not a translation of tough.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_07: Well, like hole bah means to go and come back, right?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_07: So I think we we do have a basis for that.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_07: Um yeah, so um so I think that is a legitimate reading of it.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_07: Um uh what was I gonna say about your first thing that you said?
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_07: Um I don't remember.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, so I I think that that is good, but that's more of a translation thing.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_07: Other questions?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, I guess we just have to ask what exactly are we supposed to assume about these birds, right?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_07: Uh assume about uh Tor and Dror.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_07: Um uh yeah, uh in in the mushall or in the mushallim, right?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, that wouldgether with that, um like what's the difference between seapor and draw and then why does it go from what sounds to be more general bird to more specific family of bird?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, okay.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_07: Um why does it so and then like regardless of how one understands uh I guess identifies each each bird?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_07: Uh why is the first uh generic and the second specific?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_07: Right?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, even if you want to say it's seapor is Dabka, a uh sparrow or swallow or whatever you want to say it is, then I think seapor is a normal word for bird, right?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_07: Just a Stom bird.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, Isaac.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: What is a kililashinam?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_07: That is a big question.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_07: What is a kilalaskinam?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, right.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_07: Uh what yeah, in in in what sense is it henam?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, and how is that determined, which I think is a separate question, but a related one.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_07: In other words, um, like if you if you hear, let's say you're trying to apply this puzzle in the wild and you hear someone um curse someone else, can you just arrive at the diagnosis of Henam from all the facts that you have, or like do you have to like know the person's intent?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_07: Do you have to know the person's deservingness?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_07: Uh yeah, Moshe.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, what's the moch locus between low if it happened if it curse?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_07: Uh your audio got garbled.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_07: All right, let me try again.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_05: What's the between low and low?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_05: Meaning if the kill up low works.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, good.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_07: So what is the um what is the creek sieve uh doing?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_07: So so motion says mach locus.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_07: I'm just gonna give my quick spiel on Kreexiv, which I do at least once a year, right?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_07: So um the Bravenel says that there are three reasons for Kreexiv in Tanakh.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, one is uh euphemistic, right?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_07: So for example, um all of the um uh like in the in the uh in Kisavo, right?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_07: Like uh the Batchorim and the Apolim or Yishkavena and Yishgalena, right?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_07: So you like that that's my favorite example, right?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_07: It's like Yishgalena, I think, according to the Ruban, is like a very violent sexual term, whereas Yishkavena, he will lie with her, not like he will ravish her, you know, is uh is a more um euphemistic thing.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_07: Or also all of the all of the instances of na'ara are spelled without a head, right?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_07: Because it's like uh indecent to like mention that.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_07: What do you say, Benji?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_07: What was the cream before you said the is the is yizhgalena, but you read it as yishkavena.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_07: So you read it in the nicer way, but it's written in the more uh overt way.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_07: And I don't remember what the uh the torium and apolim are.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_07: One of them is like a gross term for hemorrhoids, and the other one's like a normal term.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_07: And I don't even remember which one's um I think about Korim is the one that is is Kree, because I never remember reading Apolim, you know, um uh in Schneimikra.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so that's one instance.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_07: Another instance is to convey a um a like a dual meaning, or is that like to convey another idea, right?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_07: So uh anyone think of an example of that?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_07: Like that where we we like Dafka, the the puzzle wants to convey two ideas, one through the Kree, one through the Kziv.
• 17:21
  unknown: Hashem in Alakim.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_07: Yes, okay.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_07: Uh Hashem and Elohim, do you say?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_07: Oh, it's no, but this is the most common one.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_07: This is my trivial question.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_07: What's the most common Kree Kziv is UK Vavke, right?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_07: Which we read as Alf Dal Nunyud.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, right, right.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, right, right.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_07: So there's different ideas.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_07: Um right, but like the I think the the Stom idea is that, or the anyone have a working idea about why you read it as uh Alf Dal Nunyud.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_08: Why that's supposed to be a yeah.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_07: Or or like what you're supposed to have in mind when you encounter UK Vovke and you read it as Alf Dalinun Yud.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_08: The idea I thought is that the fact that you're not even reading it the way it's written expresses a power and a knowledge of God.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, correct.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_07: So that's half of the idea, right?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_07: And then I think you could supplement it by why Olif Dal Nun Yud.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, Isaac.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um remember here an idea from our pizza that when you um appreciate the the reality of Ud K of K, then the immediate re like response that a person has is um Adnos, like recognizing that he that he is your Adon.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, that's a good idea.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_07: I think that fits with Hazal's statement that Avram was the first person to call Hashem by Lashan of Adnus.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_07: Um my idea, which I think I gave over most recently in the Sunday shear on the first brocha of uh of uh the Shmon Esray, and I don't remember what source I got it from.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_07: I think I might have gotten it from multiple sources, is um the Shem Havaiah, according to everyone, is like the proper name of God, right?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_07: So whether you hold like the tour that it's Hayahova Vihia, or whether you hold like the Ramam, according to my understanding, that it does not have a meaning uh that we know that is shared with anything else.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_07: It davka refers to God's essence.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_07: I don't mean it does have a meaning, I mean that it only refers to God's essence.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_07: It's a true shame yuchad, and the the shorish is not hayah, okay?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_07: So it's referring to God's essence, which we cannot know.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_07: And then adnus is referring to God's mastery, which is referring to Hajgacha, clawless pratists, you know, uh creation.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_07: So my idea that I have is you refer to it as UK Vavke as lushan of adnus, because the only way we can know God's essence is we can't.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_07: We can only know God via his uh his uh his mastery, right?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_07: So that's second example of conveying two ideas uh through Kriegsiv.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_07: Sorry, so we have first is euphemism, second is conveying a dual idea, third one is scribal emendations, where especially after the Ajiknasagdullah finalized everything and Ezra Sofer, right, went through, they made a bunch of corrections to standardize and correct the the the spharm that were out there.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_07: And they just like in you know our Gemaras, they did not delete the original one.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_07: Um uh they preserved it in the form of the Ksiv, but then the correct one is the Cree.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_07: Um and Bravanel has a bunch of theories.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_07: My favorite one uh about like the statistical prevalence.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_07: My favorite one is he says that Yeshayahu Hanavi was um a very poetic, good writer who was like raised in Malchus, uh, you know, in in like a royal context.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_07: And so there are very few of these Kriegsives there.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_07: But then Yirmiahu Hanavi was a Na'ar, and he was a horrible speller.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_07: Okay.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_07: And that that's why you'll find in Seifer Yermiyahu, in Sefer Malachim, and uh I is the most by far.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_07: Oh, it is actually oh, he was also young, right?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_07: When he started his career.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_07: Um yeah, I I saw there's one other book that oh A.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_07: Epha's the other one, is that um he says you'll find a lot of these creeksives that are obviously bad grammar, bad spelling, you know, other stuff like that.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, and then also, like again, there's just the normal scribal errors where like a vov becomes yud or whatever.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_07: So those uh that's also a common thing.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_07: I think that is not, I don't think there are any of those in Khomash.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_07: I think that's just in Nah.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_07: So that's the the general three reasons I'm aware for Kriegsiv.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_07: Um yeah.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_08: So that last one was in in one case the the Navi saying when the head is.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, he himself writes it.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_08: The other is that you could.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, but the other case is just a mistake, it was just a mistake.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_07: A mistake that arises throughout the ages, yeah.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_07: But they wanted to keep that in case it was in case there is some other meaning to it.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_07: Like it could have been the second category as well.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_07: Um, what was that?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, right.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_07: Well, yeah, it does not not totally get rid of the uh of the original one.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_07: So the approach that's taken mostly by the Rubinu Yonah and Mishle, and then apparently Radak does this throughout um Tanakh.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_07: I'm I'm not saying that from firsthand knowledge, is that he always tries to give the interpretation, not always, he often gives the interpretation as if it's the second category.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_07: So he tries to get an idea out of uh out of both uh readings.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_07: I have not yet found um like a uniform systematic way about which one is the Kree and which one is the Ksiv.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_07: But like he tries to get the dual meaning out of both of them.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_07: And so that so that's why I'm phrasing it as what is the Kree Ksiv doing?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_07: Um, is that like, you know, uh assuming it it's convenient.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_07: Some other level of meaning, what is that meaning?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, or assuming it's a mistake, what is the mochlocus?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, Moshe?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_05: But just be clear, if it's a mochlocus, you're still saying that uh like there's like a reason one of those texts came about or was preserved, right?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_05: Meaning there's like some smart to it, right?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_05: Correct.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, good.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_07: Uh do anyone know what the um there's a Latin phrase um uh okay, uh uh the difficult reading is correct.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_07: Latin.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_07: This is just a good thing to know.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_07: Uh you have to use your one.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_07: Lectio de filistior potior, right?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_07: Um, which is uh the more difficult reading is the stronger, which is a general rule of thumb that manuscript um people use, is if you find a difficult reading that managed to survive, then the the odds are greater that that's the correct one.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_07: Um, again, depends on what the context is.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_07: So let's say, for example, the the good context, I think, is the Ramban, right?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_07: Is if you find a case where you have an authoritative manuscript uh of the Mishnah Torah that preserves a difficult reading, then presumably that was intentional.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_07: And the easier reading is the one that was corrected because someone said, Oh, that's a mistake, you know.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_07: Um again, it depends on the context.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_04: The history there is funny.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_04: It's the first thing is Ravenu Tom.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_07: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_07: I I I discovered this.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, Ravenu Tom in a normal Wikipedia article expressed this idea in his response.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_07: Uh uh, say for Hayashar.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_07: Uh quote, it was written by the author of the Talmuds, and students who correct the text do not correct it in order to make the text difficult.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_07: That's another way of saying it, right?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_07: They don't correct it to make it more difficult.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, that is a very funny thing.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, good eye, good eye.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_07: Um, yeah, okay.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_07: And again, obviously, like in um in uh something like Tanakh, it's like very difficult because it's so ancient.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_07: And that's also why, okay, now I get the beginning of the year, so I have to give some methodology here.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_07: Uh raise your hand if you know about the secret Alatora site.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, good.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_07: You all know?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_07: Okay.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_07: So uh mgs.alatora.org, right?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_07: So that is the micro scadillos for scholars um that has the uh fartian or versions that you will not find on the normal one because some people will think that it's not from.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_07: Um I'm gonna go with Torah here, uh, just to show you here.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_07: Well, I'm about to do that.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_07: Um, so for example, it has the where does it start?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_07: Oh, um Nigilos Mikaira uh Mikrios Mikumran.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_07: So you have the Dead Sea Scrolls.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_07: Okay.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_07: Uh you also have the Eide Nusa Chitzoniem, the external textual witnesses.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_07: So Nusa Hashamroni, the Samaritan Torah, um, Targum Shivim, the Septuagint, and the Pshitita, which is the Syriac Torah.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_07: And then you also have at the bottom, um Does it have all of a Prakafron's website and like other uh that's on the normal side.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_07: This is Davika for for Tanah.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_07: Uh Casuto.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_07: So Casuto is a uh Italian modern-ish scholar.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_07: Uh oh, it doesn't give his uh date, so that's weird.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_07: Um who did a lot of work combating the documentary hypothesis, but he also did not hold by Torabina Shemayim.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_07: Um so like uh that's why he's not on the on the thing.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_07: Documentary hypothesis is the theory that the Tanakh was written or that the Torah was written by different authors and uh and then compiled together.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_07: So he was one of the foremost people who like uh argued against that.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_07: So, you know, the the I'm just telling you again, just basically methodology, I'm sorry we're stalling here um or taking a longer time.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_07: Um, but the there is a from gut instinct to reject um non-Massoretic versions of Tanakh.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_07: And I think probably the From instinct comes from the fact that the Masoretic one is the one that we rely on for everything, and the fact that these are talked about by non-Jewish um uh, you know, uh or or non or secular academics, right?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_07: But you have to remember that the reason why they call these things textual witnesses is because, for example, the the the septuagent was written at a time and based on versions of the Tanakh that existed prior to the finalization of the Masoretic text by the Tiberian Sofrim in the 8th century, ninth century, whatever.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_07: Um, and so it so the Targum Hashivim, even if we disagree with like, you know, who translated it or whatever, it saw earlier versions of Tanakh.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_07: And therefore, uh, and again, same thing with these other these other texts.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_07: And by the way, the the Targum on Mishlay, which is not Targum on Gloss, is also an early textual witness.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_07: And we've seen this a lot.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_07: My favorite favorite examples are the Masoretic text will will read an Ion Men as im, and then we'll see that the Targum is clearly translating it as umma, as um, you know, and so so my personal policy with these other texts is I think they are worth looking at, and you can be a Froom Jew and hold that the one that's binding is the Masoretic text, but recognize that there still is important data to be considered from these uh these witnesses, yeah.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_04: Just so like the Kamara had a different there's uh yeah, there's something so we need it.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_04: Like they're like based on uh I have uh my focus based on the Koranas or the Bab or Karnas.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, right, correct.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_07: We don't have them, yeah, right, right.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_07: And and Rebbe in the Shivush year talks about you know, we have systems, we have rules, uh either from the Rishonim or different you know eras about what to do when you have a machlokus between the Mysora of the Bali Mysorah and the Mysora of Shas, you know.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_07: And uh, if you're interested in my stuff on this, then check out the page subscriber article on the Dead Sea Scrolls that I wrote where I wrote the whole thing about that.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, okay, back to the back to the Michel.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_07: Other questions?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_07: I'm not gonna do that every time we see a creek zip.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, uh, David.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_07: What is the scenario?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, what is the decision-making scenario here?
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_07: Right?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_07: So we know it has to do with Kilaskinam, but beyond that, what is it?
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: And together with that, because I get this like these birds are doing this intentionally, and it seems like this kiloskinam is not intentionally gonna come back to him in the same way.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, okay.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_07: So I guess um, we'll just ask the the question that we're gonna ask a lot on this, which I think subsumes a lot of these other questions.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_07: What is the exact relationship between the mushall and the nymphshall?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_07: Um, how many, I guess which which slash how many characteristics are carried over from the the the bird behavior to the uh Kilashinan uh uh behavior or uh um dynamics.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Also on the how many mashalim is that with water temple.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, right.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_07: Um also uh how many how many mashalin uh is this?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_07: Is this one or two?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you have um I don't know if yes sorry, but on the him reading, who is him?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, um what's the previous possible?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_07: The previous possible was uh Kashello Bukhai's Ukumata Bukati or Kain Lonav Kavod.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_04: So it would presume to be the Xiel then?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_07: Oh, you're saying if the two are connected?
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, if it's if it's love, right?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_04: Right to him.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_07: Well, I mean it it could be a standalone problem.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_09: That can be true if the person would be able to do that.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I think yeah, right.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_07: So so let's just ask this here, okay.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_07: Uh who uh who is the love?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so I think the the the primary candidate is just the guy who gave the curse, right?
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_07: Is it the guy who who cursed or is it the seal from the previous puzzle?
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_07: Um or sorry, from the previous puzzle, or is it someone else?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I mean I I'm pretty sure it's the guy who cursed, but yeah, I I would not be inclined to connect it, but I think it's a legit.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_04: I'm sort of maybe having my file on the screen, but um but how are you seeing that in the puzzle?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_07: Just like because he's the only guy uh he's an implied guy in the puzzle.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_07: Curses don't just are not pro avia, right?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_07: Um yeah.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_07: Um, like for example, if if someone says if someone says in English, an English problem, what goes around comes around, you wouldn't assume it's referring to the previous puzzle.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_07: You refer you assume it's referring to whoever caused the thing to go around and it comes around, even though we don't specify the name, we don't name the person who is initiating it.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Isaac.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's also another option which is the person that is the that the guy's trying to curse.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_07: That is also true, right?
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_07: Um, yeah, that is the cursed land.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, right.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah, it is possible, it's a logical possibility, right?
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_07: Um, is it the seal from the uh sorry?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_07: I'm gonna put I'm gonna put this uh here.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_07: Is it the guy who cursed the guy who is being cursed, uh the seal from the previous POSIG or someone else?
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, why can't it be that he is cursing someone but still reading like the Lam and Aleph uh version?
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_07: Uh meaning that it's not the person being well his question is Davka on what's the antecedent of the pronoun low.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_07: So if you're doing the Lamid Aleph version, then it's not there is no hymn in the PASOC.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_07: It's saying it will it will it will not come.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_08: Right, well goodness.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_07: So that could be it will not come true.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_07: It could be it will not land, but but his question is specifically on who the who the hymn is, yeah.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_07: Um and and then the question of what it means if it's just low with an aleph, that's included in motor's uh question.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_07: Um, I think another question here is who is the intended audience, right?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_07: The cursor, cursor, cursor, right?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_07: But I'm just saying the cursor is the thing you use when you move the thing on the mouth.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_07: Cursor, the cursey, or cursey, that is a word, or um the bystander, right?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_07: I think those are the three options.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_07: Uh yeah, yes.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_04: Not just what are like what is closenam, but but like are we supposed to be afraid of curses?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, okay, so um what's our what should be our relationship to curses?
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_07: And what should I guess like yeah, what what relationship to kiloloshinam, uh clauloshinam, uh emerges from this puzzle?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, I think that will depend directly on the last one.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, David.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: Another question related to that.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: Is this only true with kilodhinam?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_03: Right, that's I was waiting for that question.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, okay, right.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_07: So um is this limited to kill last kinam?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_07: Um uh or or does it apply to all klalos?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_07: And um and then if the latter, uh, why specify kiloskinam, right?
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_07: In other words, is it because it's most exemplified for that?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_07: Uh and then like, you know, uh, or is it uh like like if it's kilosinam, then call the home error for a regular klala, or is it not a regular klala?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 33:57
  unknown: Okay.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: More things together with that, it's a little bit more pushing it, but would you say the other like on say like uh verkat finam?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: Would it also stay consistent, or this is only about klala that this would possibly be?
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_07: I don't want to ask that question.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_07: To me, that strays into the territory of that's a different subject, you know?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_07: Like uh like I I don't I don't want to speculate about what the puzzle would say about a completely different topic.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_07: You know, maybe we can apply we could think about it in the application, but yeah, Yavi.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um just going on David's question, if you do assume that the this is limited to a kiloshenum, does that tell you anything about a regular klala that maybe it would come to fruition or it would?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so then uh so um and even if it is about a kilospinum, um can we infer anything about a regular klala klala?
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, uh Ellie.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah, I was gonna actually build on the previous questions, but another thing um also is like you know that um analogy they say about you know gossiping or giving lessh and like squeezing toothpaste out of a tube of toothpaste and trying to put it back in.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_09: And yeah, I feel like that if you're reading the interpretation as low, like Lamed Alice, yeah, you could kind of see it as like throwing a curse out there and it just flying or fluttering away like a bird would, and just not being able to take it back, not being able to contain it.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_07: You're answering a question that I don't think we've actually asked.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_07: Have we asked what low Tavo means?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_07: I don't think so, right?
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_07: So what does low Tavo mean?
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_07: Uh what does low Tavo mean?
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_07: Okay.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_07: I think we're ready to uh I think we got all the questions.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so uh ideas, yeah, Isaac.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it's actually gonna use the um the sieve, not the cree.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it will not come.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um so the um I think a killaskinum is when a person is reading the sorry, you're doing the ksiv?
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, yeah.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so there's a low low subla um that it will not come.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I think when a person is um cursing so uh so I think a killashinam is a curse that um is not like really like about the person or like tied to something that the the person did.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning like like let's say like when someone, you know, um like someone's cursing someone else, but it's it's clear it's just because of the um something going on with the cursor, not anything about the cursey.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: So when it happens, it you know, it's kind of almost like a bird just flying by where it really has nothing to do with you, and it just like goes past.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_07: Okay.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_07: Uh flying by uh and uh and uh doesn't really affect you.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_07: This is not talking about David Lichter, who uh any bird flying by does affect him.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_07: Um uh fills him with Avatashen.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_07: Um doesn't uh and doesn't affect you.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_07: Uh so you're saying it doesn't affect you or shouldn't affect you?
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um so maybe that maybe that's the the like practical importance that it is that that's how you should view it.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, okay, right.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_07: Uh right.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_07: So okay, so that that that's good, right?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_07: So that this is the interesting thing, right?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_07: Is that I was just talking about this with someone.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_07: I forgot.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_07: Give me one second.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_07: I forgot.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_07: There's a there's a real world example that involved.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_07: Oh, I know what it was.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_07: Um, I think I heard this from a long time ago about Rabbi Zucker, and he was talking about how certain people get so up in arms about like if you express a view that like in Hoshkafa that they disagree with, they'll like go after you and like insult you and and like you know and Navona, you have something to say?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_07: No?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_07: All right, I'll mute you.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_07: All right, thank you.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_07: Um, so um, so I think he expressed it, he said, like, like if people disagree with me Hoshkafali, why don't they view me like the guy in Times Square with the world is ending and he's yelling out all the people, all of you are damned unless you accept Jesus.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_07: Like, like if you really, really disagree with him, so then he's some crazy guy.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_07: Like, why should you get insulted or affected by this?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_07: You know, uh, so that that imagery for some reason stood out to me as like if um if someone insults you, like, and you really hold that it's baseless, you know, then you shouldn't get insulted by it.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_07: Uh now, I'm not saying like there are also ripple effects and ramifications.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_07: Like, if someone insults you, let's say like insults your credibility or your honesty or whatever, then that could spread lush and hard to other people.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_07: I'm not even talking about that element, but like I'm talking about the the ego pain that you feel from someone saying something about you.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_07: And like, you know, it's um like you know, my mom actually uh drilled this into me as a little kid.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_07: Uh thankfully I didn't get bullied.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_07: Um, but but like whatever, like, you know, at some point, like some kid will call you a name or whatever.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_07: And then I think my my mom drilled it into me very early on, like, you know, well, is what he's saying true?
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_07: No.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_07: So then why do you care about it?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_07: You know, like it's just, you know, so so uh yeah, and if it is true, so then you should do chuva.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_07: Like you should like look into it and and you should thank the guy, right?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_07: Uh, you know, not not thank him for like doing it publicly, whatever, but like for bringing it to your attention, right?
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_07: So so if if the klala is trinan, if it genuinely is not actually applicable to any real quality in you, so then it's just like a bird flying by, and you're not gonna get all bent out of shape because a bird flies by, you know.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_07: Um, is that what you're saying, I think?
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: I I I get personally offended when I see a bird flying by.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_07: So, you know, it's funny.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_07: Uh this is not a dig at Navona, but like um, you see some people react to babies crying as though the baby's crying at them to like, you know, and like I I I you know, I've I've uh given people this advice before also about dealing with uh with the family members that upset them.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_07: I'm like, if you just imagine this person as a giant baby in a diaper with a pacifier crying, you're you're you're not gonna get offended and you're gonna be like, oh, like that's too bad.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_07: This this person's like just this baby's just like totally helpless victim of their own emotions, you know?
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_07: So like when you see someone cursing you and it's clearly stemming from their own issues, like this is just you know, like you shouldn't take it, take it personally.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_07: Uh yeah, Benji.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_06: I don't know if this is from Ryan Moscow's or not.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, but just imagine it's like a dog parking radio.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, that's a good that's a good martial, also.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, right.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_07: Uh yeah, uh yeah, Mosha.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um I was a new idea.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, anyone want to add to this idea?
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: I do want to do that starts by adding to your idea.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, so uh now you've given me mixed messages.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_07: Okay.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_07: Um yeah, yeah.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_07: Um, I just want to say also just a uh to say one thing I like about this idea is you notice it conveniently sidesteps the differentiations in the puzzle and just treats them as one mushle.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_07: We don't care about the bird, like about like what species of bird, you know, and it's just you know, and then in in which case, by the way, I have no problem saying that there is a um uh there's a po it's poetry, right?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_07: Like is it you know, so you know, like I uh I think this is the thing initially of like in threes, you know, like this and like this and like this, you know, like uh similar to early to bed, early to rise, makes men healthy, wealthy, and wise.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_07: Well, doesn't it give other benefits also?
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_07: Do you really have to say it sounds nice, you know.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_07: So so that that is a good minimalist interpretation of the puzzle, and I will not be surprised, I haven't looked at it yet.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_07: I will not be surprised if the Matsudis David also does not differentiate between the two.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, yeah.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_07: Moshe, what's your same different idea?
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_07: Starting point, stem point, yeah.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so this is to um this is the answer why uh why you would uh I mean why why you would feel uh the need to respond to this guy in the first place?
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_03: Okay in your so this could be that it is actually talking about the tool of the previous process, and it's insofar as it could be that you actually already give him power, or his already covered.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_03: And naturally, when you see something in a powerful position in a or in a higher place in society, if he's listening to you, even if it's not true, you're going to be worried about your social identity, how it takes power as far as other tools or other perspectives for whatever reason, you're worried how that's going to treat you're worried about how your image is going to be perceived by other owners in society.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_03: So I think what this public is saying that um, and now I'm also my own.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, uh the bird also reminded me uh a book by Stephen King and Peter and Peter Stroud on Blackhouse.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_03: In the beginning, it uh mentions the main bill of the book, it talks about how he got infected by a bird.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and he and Stephen King like refers to this bird as the same bird that has infected every single single person throughout history, like and I was and so it could be that the difference between a claw, a claw of spinam, and it's a regular claw is that those people I would say a curse is something I'm defining here as something that you in uh intentional harm towards someone because you and insofar as you have actually the power to do that.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_07: Okay.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_03: So like let's say a a king says in the actual words themselves, I I I guess I I I can't say specifically, but the king says like I'm going to place a curse, like I'm you in your family.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: I guess whether that actually does have uh an actual effect or not, doesn't really make a difference to let's say a serf who's going to believe that the king who has all this power to place a curse on him and has and wise intelligent, whatever the king is, actually does have the power and therefore intention and will to carry out such a curse.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_03: So or but it can also be like I'll summarized these people from uh a movie where like some either guy doesn't guide to them and they expert vengeance on him.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna cut this guy out.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_07: I'm hearing your words, but I'm not following.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_07: So what is the puzzle saying?
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_03: So in this case, uh because a fool doesn't he he it's only your actual um that because the cover that was given to him doesn't actually reflect any real power and and capability from it.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, then the bird that's going to the bird that that's the current that's coming from him doesn't actually lack any real intention.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_03: And in this way it's similar to I guess Isaac's the end that's well it lacks in it won't have intention or won't have the effect.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_07: I feel like he's sealing the action.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_07: I guess effect.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_03: The fool won't necessarily care about if the curse.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think Phil has will put in the effort to make sure the curse is carried out.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_03: He just wants to, in that moment, denigrate you for the sake of propping himself up.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_07: Okay.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_07: To denigrate you in the moment.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_07: Um now I see that there are four other people who want to have uh say uh wanna say things.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_07: Uh I don't like to eat into your morning satur, so I'm going to end share now.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_07: If you either are not going to be here tomorrow or if you are afraid that you're going to forget your idea, feel free to send me a voice message at some point.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_07: Um, but uh but I don't want to cut into your uh morning seder.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, I I don't mind going a minute over, but uh we don't have time for four people, so I'm sorry about that.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, all right, let's stop here for a second.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much, yep.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_07: Thanks for coming.