Latest / Ghost Cult Magazine Podcast / PODCAST: Episode 730 - Tom Osman Interviews Steve Von Till About His New Album "Alone in a World of Wounds"

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PODCAST: Episode 730 - Tom Osman Interviews Steve Von Till About His New Album "Alone in a World of Wounds" · Ghost Cult Magazine Podcast

0:00
I realize that my life quest artistically has been also
0:05
combining all my personal trials and tribulations and love and
0:08
loss and and specific situations, but all within this
0:12
grander framework of the disconnect that we are
0:16
disconnected from what we're supposed to be.
0:19
We're disconnected from what our potential is.
0:21
We're disconnected from our relatives, the, the rivers, the
0:24
mountains, the trees, the other, the other animal life on this
0:28
planet that they, we are, we are actually biologically,
0:31
physically made-up of the same stuff.
0:34
We are literally children of Earth.
0:36
And so to talk about spirituality as if it's
0:39
separated from matter is weird, but it's the way since
0:43
monotheistic religions, that's even the way people look at neo
0:46
paganisms and and things like that, that somehow the spirit is
0:49
separate from the physical world.
0:51
And I I just don't think you can separate any part.
0:54
It's all, it's all one. It's all one.
1:04
This is Tom for Ghost Cult and I'm delighted to be joined by
1:08
singer, guitarist, songwriter, Co founder of New Rock
1:12
Recordings, long standing member of the unclassifiable Neurosis
1:16
and involved in a number of other projects.
1:19
But now also celebrating 25 years as a solo recording artist
1:24
with his latest record Alone in a World of Wounds out on May the
1:27
16th on New Rock Recordings. Steve on Till.
1:30
Thank you, Sir. Thanks for having me Tom.
1:31
Appreciate it. So thinking about the latest
1:36
record then and talking about, well, there's a there's a few
1:40
different elements to talk about here.
1:41
I think there's your voice, there's the the instrumentation
1:45
that you've been using and maybe the changes in the
1:47
instrumentation. Yeah.
1:49
Also kind of some of the inspirations, you know, maybe
1:52
some of the literary inspirations that you've got,
1:54
some of the sort of philosophical inspirations that
1:56
you've got. Maybe what we could start with
1:57
actually is to talk a bit about kind of the, the sort of
2:01
philosophical background that you take into your music.
2:03
So one of the things that I've noticed is, you know, this goes
2:07
back to some of the iconography with some of the Neurosis
2:10
records with Harvest Man as well.
2:12
And, you know, I sort of get a sense with listening to your,
2:16
your lyrics, whether it's in your Steve Von Till material or
2:20
elsewhere, that there's a kind of a, a sort of a cosmic
2:22
interest, maybe sort of interest in paganism, in sort of
2:26
mysticism and mythology and maybe religions as well.
2:29
So I'm kind of wondering what aspect of that you think sort of
2:32
permeates into the the art that you create and sort of where
2:35
that fascination comes from? You know, it's something that I,
2:38
I, I don't think I would have been able to articulate until
2:41
now. And I'll, it'll probably
2:43
continue to evolve, but I've always just been a seeker.
2:46
And yeah, I'm not a fan of religions.
2:51
I'm not a fan of dogma. I'm not looking for truths that
2:57
deny other things being true. But I think what I've always
3:01
been seeking is as a child of the American West, as a child of
3:06
immigrants, as a child of, you know, as a middle class white
3:11
male, this Society of settler colonialism was set up to
3:18
benefit me, right? Or people like me, so they say.
3:22
I don't think I think it was actually set up to destroy us
3:24
all. But but regardless, like I in in
3:27
a world of privilege in this society, my place in in this,
3:31
the stratus would be 1 of privilege.
3:34
And folks, and a lot of folks like myself who grew up in
3:37
alternative self created communities didn't feel like it
3:41
ever spoke to us so that it ever provided a sense of meaning or
3:45
belonging that we didn't believe in it.
3:47
We don't believe in the tenets of it.
3:48
We don't believe in the historical drive of infinite
3:52
growth on a finite planet of power over others, over
3:57
supremacy over others, you know, creating this mono death culture
4:03
of consumerism. That was where all cultures come
4:05
to die. And so we were always looking
4:07
for something else. And it started off as just
4:09
primitive punk rock rage and which we probably couldn't
4:12
express or, or political Rage Against the system and what have
4:16
you. And that quickly broadened out
4:19
as a young man into looking for whispers of something that might
4:25
some some pieces of wisdom that might be able to combine with
4:29
our natural creativity, create a different story, create a
4:32
different future, create a different possibility, even if
4:36
it's within our own communities. And that started with punk rock
4:38
and DIY. I've interacted with a lot of
4:42
people of alternative spiritual paths, you know, whether they be
4:45
focused to to the Eastern traditions or the neo Pagan
4:49
traditions of Europe and what have you.
4:51
But regardless of what path people are going to, I think the
4:55
the thing that I keep coming back to and I realize I've been
4:57
spiraling either I can't tell whether I'm spiraling out to it
5:01
or spiraling in towards it, because I don't know whether
5:03
it's yeah, I don't know which. Maybe it's both directions at
5:06
once. But and there's your there's
5:08
your cosmic element. There is like the macrocosm is
5:10
the microcosm as above, so below.
5:12
But whenever and the wind doesn't matter, it only matters
5:16
that it's happened at some point, humanity, or at least
5:19
mainstream society, and it's happened in different parts of
5:23
the world in different ages. At some point, in our own minds,
5:27
we became separate from the wild.
5:30
We became separate from the rest of nature to the point where we
5:33
talk of nature as if it is something else, something to
5:36
visit, something to connect to, something to inspire you.
5:41
But the reality is we are we are wild.
5:44
We are nature. We just forgot and our
5:47
everything. And as our society is propping
5:49
us up to not find our way to it. And I don't have that answer at
5:53
all that that I don't. But I realize that my life quest
5:57
artistically has been also combining all my personal trials
6:01
and tribulations and love and loss and, and specific
6:05
situations, but all within this grander framework of the the
6:10
disconnect that we are disconnected from what we're
6:13
supposed to be. We're disconnected from what our
6:16
potential is. We're disconnected from our
6:18
relatives, the, the rivers, the mountains, the trees, the other,
6:22
the other animal life on this planet that they, we are, we are
6:26
actually biologically, physically made-up of the same
6:29
stuff. We are literally children of
6:31
Earth. And so to talk about
6:33
spirituality as if it's separated from matter is weird
6:37
it, but it's the way. It's the way since monotheistic
6:40
religions. That's even the way people look
6:42
at neo paganism and and things like that, that somehow the
6:45
spirit is separate from the physical world.
6:48
And I I just don't think you can separate any part.
6:51
It's all, it's all one. It's all one.
6:54
And then the deeper science is getting and the further away
6:58
it's getting from Victorian empirical science, where it's
7:01
like plopping A plopping a template to justify empire or to
7:06
justify competition, you know, where you have kingdoms and
7:09
classes and orders of different species.
7:13
But the, the, the more we, the further we get away from that
7:15
and we get into how it's truly working.
7:17
We see that it's all of those things at once, along with
7:21
reciprocity and cooperation, and that the Earth is infinitely
7:26
bountiful. That scarcity is a human myth
7:29
that we use to control each other and, and, and to view the,
7:34
our relatives and our earth as resources to use for our benefit
7:38
instead of things freely given that we should also give to, to
7:42
make sure that they continue to thrive.
7:43
And, you know, it's just it, it's, it's brought forth and in
7:46
fact, an infinite level of sadness to be, to feel
7:50
disconnected from that potential.
7:52
And I think we all have it, whether we think about it or
7:55
not. I really think it's behind the
7:56
scenes, working, working. It's evil disconnect us from
8:00
our, our own minds. Like the, the level of mental
8:03
illness and mental health issues happening, I think is from this
8:06
unconsolable disconnect from, from ourselves.
8:10
And that affects our family life and our, our friends and our
8:13
relationships, which have become increasingly isolated from
8:16
community, you know, and we, we get these crazy myths about how
8:20
community should be like nation States and ethnicities or, you
8:24
know, what have you. And it's like, no, it's, it
8:26
really needs, I don't know, I, I, I don't know that there's an
8:29
answer there. I just know that it's an endless
8:31
well of a need to create in order to explore that idea.
8:36
You know, I mean, because I could go on about it all day and
8:40
and I, I don't know if it's possible for us to have the
8:43
consciousness shift necessary to run the other direction, but it
8:46
doesn't mean we shouldn't try. It doesn't mean we shouldn't.
8:49
You know it. It's OK to feel this level of
8:51
sorrow during the great, you know, the 6th grade extinction
8:54
event. But nature will figure it out.
8:58
Something beautiful, everything beautiful we love right now.
9:00
That's passing is a result of a previous extinction event, and
9:04
so we can rest assured that there will be beautiful things
9:07
in the future as a result of this extinction event.
9:10
We may just not have the good fortune of being a part of it.
9:14
In fact, probably not. But, you know, it's fascinating
9:16
to hear you talk about this and it's there's so many things you
9:19
say that really I connect with. And I think, you know, from the
9:23
point that I first discovered your music through Souls AT0
9:27
with Neurosis, you know, like taking a track, for example,
9:30
like chronology of survival, I think is quite a good
9:32
encapsulation of part of what you're talking about with
9:34
actually, you know, sort of being part of the the animal
9:37
world and not being disconnected in the way that we we sometimes
9:41
kind of think of ourselves being.
9:42
And I think that, you know, going through the various
9:44
different forms that your artistic expression has taken,
9:47
whether it's the more ambient side in, in Harvest man, if I
9:51
can call that the more ambient side or, you know, the more
9:53
experimental side of tribes of Neurot.
9:55
And then the more, I don't know if I like there's a, obviously
9:58
there's a, there's a folk element to what you're doing
10:00
under your own name. So I, I can feel like the
10:02
continuity of what's driving you.
10:04
But one of the things I was wondering is that for you, apart
10:07
from, you know, the different instrumentation when you're
10:11
approaching something like this latest record, do you find
10:14
yourself approaching with a different kind of energy or a
10:17
different intent than you would do with Harvest Man on Neurosis
10:20
or one of your other projects? Or does it all feel like it's
10:23
the the same kind of expression? I suppose it depends because
10:26
there's been some I, there's some ideas that I don't always
10:30
know what I'm doing when I sit down in a creative state, I sit
10:34
down and something happens and some ideas have actually bounced
10:38
between all of those potentials. You know, like I, I can think of
10:41
certain chord progressions that I initially thought would be a
10:44
Neurosis song. And it had now, then it wasn't,
10:47
it didn't. And then, OK, but maybe that'll
10:51
become a Harvest Man song. Nope, it didn't, you know it, it
10:54
was waiting for the right moment and that moment turned out low.
10:58
Well, I just have to get it. I played that chord progression
11:00
on a piano instead of a guitar and all of a sudden it was a
11:04
song for the new record, you know, So this, you know, decade
11:08
plus old chord progression found life.
11:12
It was just waiting, waiting for me to tell it where it belonged
11:15
is how it feels. So I, I don't, I don't, I try
11:18
not to limit myself when I sit down to be creative and I am
11:21
just, you know, obviously if there's an electric guitar in my
11:25
hand, it's going to be neurosis or harvest man.
11:28
But then again, you never know. So I, I suppose I'm, I'm open
11:32
to, I try to place myself in situations where beautiful
11:36
accidents can happen and where the music will tell me where it
11:40
wants to go. What, once I've got an idea,
11:43
then I then I focus and I narrow it down and, and I be OK.
11:47
Now I'm going to, you know, harvestment is kind of like all
11:50
gloves off. It's whatever is in this room,
11:52
it's turned on at the time. And that's just following rabbit
11:54
holes. That stuff's never actually
11:55
composed. That's all, just improvised and
11:58
one moment in time. But yeah, for the solo stuff, it
12:02
it's once I find a way in, then I can, I can try to establish
12:08
what, what direction it wants to go instrumentation wise and and
12:11
then then follow the voice. And talk about the
12:14
instrumentation. So the, I think the, the way
12:18
that you've recorded your vocals and the delivery of your vocals
12:21
on Alone in a World of Wounds are incredibly impactful and it
12:24
sounds wonderful, but it's also there within the context of
12:29
everything else that you've arranged around it.
12:31
So I'm, I'm quite fascinated to know how you put this music
12:35
together because you've talked a little bit about, you know,
12:37
whether you're writing on guitar, whether you're writing
12:39
on piano. I'm wondering where the, you
12:41
know, how far back does the piano writing go and what was
12:44
the the constructing of this album like compared to some of
12:47
your other, you know, whether it's the solo work or other
12:49
projects. Yeah, I think there are only a
12:50
couple of songs in my Before No Wilderness deep enough.
12:54
My previous record, which I didn't mean to write, I'd only
12:57
imposed I think on a keyboard or piano a couple of times.
13:01
It was mostly guitar oriented, no wilderness deep enough
13:04
happened on accident. I I talked about that quite a
13:07
lot during the last cycle. But in kind of summation, I was
13:10
in a kind of between world state with jet lag in my wife's
13:15
parents house in German northern Germany where her family has
13:19
lived on this exact same house site for over 500 years.
13:23
Which even for European standards, that's a long time to
13:25
be in one actual house spot, you know, and a small simple farm.
13:30
They lease most of the land to neighbor farmers because they
13:32
they didn't farm the last generation.
13:35
But it just got me thinking, you know, as I was sitting there
13:38
trying to teach myself a piece of new software, I'm like, OK,
13:41
if I'm going to be, I'm not going to be asleep.
13:42
Turning on the television doesn't help.
13:44
I'm in Germany. So I'm just going to get up and
13:47
mess with the software. And I couldn't figure out the
13:49
software, but I came across a really great piano sound.
13:52
And I had a really simple keyboard.
13:54
And I just recorded these very simple chord progressions and
13:58
pulled up a Mellotron sample bank and found some really nice
14:01
vintage Mellotron string synths and layered some things.
14:05
And, you know, it's just messing around.
14:06
I wasn't trying to do anything. And when I got home a couple
14:10
months later, I opened up the files here in my studio and went
14:13
down that rabbit hole again, started adding some Moog
14:15
synthesizer and flushing some things out.
14:17
And I went, shit, I have a whole record of pretty different music
14:20
here. I think I just wrote an ambient
14:22
neoclassical record by accident. So I called Randall and I said,
14:26
hey, I think I want to book studio time.
14:28
Let's get a cello player and find me a real piano.
14:30
I'd like to I'd like to record this, I said, but I don't know
14:33
what it is or what I'll call it or anything.
14:35
And he infinite gratitude Randall for challenging me.
14:37
He said, well, don't be a coward.
14:39
Sing on it and make it your next solo record.
14:42
And I went, no, this beautiful music does not need this voice
14:45
screwing it up. You know, it's pretty and you
14:49
know, I heard a lot of what I'd been influenced other their
14:51
influences that hadn't really found their way out in my
14:55
musical expression. Like the kind of Icelandic
14:58
minimalist composers and a lot of pretty Brian Eno heavy, which
15:03
is I had a philosophical impact on me, but not so much a musical
15:06
one. And a lot of other ambient music
15:09
and and minimalist composition stuff that I liked really seem
15:12
to kind of permeate and and and inspire that.
15:16
And so I respected Randall's comment enough to explore it.
15:20
And I set up a microphone during a winter break while my wife was
15:23
back in Germany visiting her folks.
15:25
And I was alone with the dogs in the house.
15:28
And I'd fire up the wood stove, make my coffee and improvise
15:32
vocals. And I, I found I really loved
15:34
singing into the complex harmonies or the complex
15:38
harmonics of piano and synthesizer and strings.
15:42
It really pulled something different out of my voice that I
15:45
wasn't, I wasn't being called to do in in my guitar compositions.
15:49
I wasn't writing complex enough harmonic music with the guitar
15:55
to sing that way. And it really, really surprised
15:59
me how much I liked singing into it.
16:01
And within a week, I had all the vocals, I had all the words.
16:05
That was done. I had to call him and say,
16:06
you're right, you're right, let's do it.
16:10
You know, although I still released it without vocals
16:12
because that's the way I heard it first.
16:14
But so now with this current record, that door had opened to
16:19
me where OK, I can. In fact, in fact, it was
16:22
touring. I toured, did a full U.S. tour
16:24
and a full European Tour on that record over the past couple of
16:27
years. And, you know, after doing that
16:29
about 50 times, I just, I'm really inspired right now to
16:33
sing into that type of soundscape.
16:35
And even though my voice physically is more compromised
16:38
than it's ever been, I've had to even go so far as to seek help
16:42
and and therapy to keep what I have left because my I've lost
16:46
my lowest part of the register. And you know, you can hear it's
16:49
only 1:30 in the afternoon and I'm in my time and I'm getting
16:53
pretty hoarse. You know, I have got very
16:54
fatigued. But this music was calling
16:56
something stronger out of me. So with with a little bit of
16:59
help from a voice coach and the desire to sing into these
17:04
soundscapes, I compose this this recent record which I think
17:08
again, some some of the Sonic ideas predate no wilderness.
17:12
Most of it is after, but all of the approach is informed by the
17:16
experience of creating that by accident and touring those songs
17:20
and wanting to sing into these complex textures.
17:24
And, and I think of learning to use the limitations of my voice
17:30
in a, in a better, in a better manner.
17:32
You know, after the last several records, I've always, I've
17:35
always had the benefit of singing into some beautiful
17:38
microphone, which it's never, it's never the tools, but it
17:41
doesn't hurt to have a beautiful, beautiful tube
17:43
condenser going through a vintage tube compressor and, you
17:47
know, getting that rich sound that we love off those old
17:50
records, you know, but so, so, yeah, so that I think that the
17:54
the music gave me the confidence and the coaching gave me the
17:58
confidence to go out further than I had been before, to
18:01
really own that I own that I am a singer.
18:04
You know, it's weird to say that, but I feel I'm 55 years
18:07
old and I feel like I'm just finding my voice.
18:09
I feel like I'm just becoming the beginnings of the singer I
18:12
want to be, which is ironic with with the physical damage,
18:15
physical damage like taking its toll as well.
18:18
But but I feel as inspired as ever just from these experiences
18:23
of interacting with the sound and and yeah, I feel that it's
18:27
the soundscapes themselves pulling something deeper out of
18:29
me and feeling more, more OK with being as vulnerable as the
18:35
music is asking me to be and to not listen to the negative self
18:41
doubt. You know, it's always there.
18:43
But I just, you know, because of the confidence punk rock gave me
18:46
to say fuck it and just put it out there anyway, you know, I've
18:51
been able to keep, keep growing as an artist and, and keep
18:55
becoming more inspired. And as far as the recordings, I
18:58
mean, Randall is, is a great guy to work with.
19:00
And I've improved my home studio gear quite a bit since that
19:04
first one. Balancing a shitty microphone on
19:06
my on my leg to record the guitar and vocals on my first
19:10
solo record to you know, having a really nice vocal chain here
19:14
at home and being able to try to do all the vocal tracks before
19:17
noon when my voice starts cracking.
19:19
Well, if you know, it's fascinating to hear you
19:20
describing the way that the the album come together came
19:23
together. You know, I was thinking to
19:24
myself, listening to the latest record, I could imagine you
19:29
singing these songs a cappella. You know, like I could kind of
19:31
imagine you going out. I don't know how rural the area
19:34
you live is, but I could kind of imagine you being.
19:36
Out 12 acres of forest. I could imagine you being out in
19:38
the wilderness and sort of like, you know, singing these songs to
19:41
the elements, but it does sound more like you had the, the
19:45
musical underpinning all kind of figured out.
19:47
And then that was what sort of gave you the, the inspiration
19:50
to, to sing on. I mean, I wonder in general, do
19:53
you? Well, I, I also thought like in
19:55
terms of the lyrics, I felt like you could have them as poetry
19:58
without the music and they would still have power.
20:01
But then, you know, as you've just been talking about, there's
20:04
a richness to the music, which also adds a lot as well.
20:06
So I, and there's a few different questions come out of
20:08
here, But I mean, one thing I'm interested in is sort of about
20:11
your, your songwriting practice or just your writing practice in
20:14
general. You know, do you have a sort of
20:15
regular writing practice that you do?
20:17
Separate from music. Well, since that that experience
20:21
of making No Wilderness Deep Enough also caused my the
20:27
release of my first poetry book because in Randall's challenge,
20:30
I was desperate to find lyrics for an entire album in one week.
20:34
And one thing I've I've always written.
20:36
I've always written poetry, but never for anyone else to look at
20:40
or with the intent to publish really just kind of it always.
20:44
I always relegated it to lyric fodder, you know, like just have
20:48
like banks and banks and banks of words that make sense
20:51
together that that imply certain things.
20:55
And so when it's lyric writing time, sometimes the sounds and
20:59
the lines will come just out of your head from from the music,
21:02
but then, you know, not fully formed.
21:04
And so at least very rarely. So I'll dive through my own
21:08
journals looking for a line that has the right number of
21:11
syllables or the right cadence or the right vowel sound to hang
21:15
on. Honestly, sometimes you want to
21:16
hang on a certain vowel sound because it's going to sound
21:19
right within the music. And that's what I think in my
21:22
creative process separates lyrics from poetry.
21:24
Poetry has to own a page and it has to make sense with your eyes
21:28
with somebody else reading it in their voice.
21:31
And lyrics have to serve a Sonic environment and have to make
21:35
sense sonically before they have to make any sense grammatically
21:39
or philosophically. And there are, you know, there's
21:42
great traditions of songwriters that are very literal
21:45
storytellers. That's not me.
21:47
Mine ends up being more like a collage of lines from my poetry.
21:52
You know, some lines again, will come like the music will, it
21:55
will inspire the first couple or maybe part of the chorus or
21:59
definitely the cadence. So I'll, I'll get started and
22:02
then I'll start going through my journals looking for the missing
22:05
pieces. And it was the act of stealing a
22:07
line from a poem I thought was perfect.
22:10
And like, what do you mean perfect?
22:11
No one was ever going to see it. So you took it because you
22:13
needed it where people are going to hear it.
22:16
And this record, that moment switch to switch in my head of I
22:19
want to let that live its own life as a poem too.
22:22
I can steal from my own work. Who gives a shit?
22:24
So that started the process of a couple months of going through
22:28
my journals and picking the best pieces and editing them and
22:31
tightening them up, up and releasing that first poetry
22:33
book, 23 entitled poems and collecting it with all my
22:36
lyrics. That's kind of like, hey, these
22:38
things are related, but not the same.
22:40
And so I continue that, practice it.
22:43
You know, it's not quite as a radical collage as like a
22:46
William S Burroughs or David Bowie cutting up the newspaper,
22:49
but it's stealing my own lines basically, and rearranging them
22:53
and reorganizing them. So I could look at a verse and
22:56
know that that represents those 4 lines represent three totally
23:00
different moments in my life, but together they become
23:04
something else entirely that I didn't even predict.
23:07
That could be something much more compelling.
23:10
And it might, I might not even understand or recognize or might
23:14
not reveal itself to me. I've had some revelations on
23:17
stage where I'm singing in front of other people where the
23:21
meaning of what those lines were about became crystal clear,
23:25
however, that what they, what those lines were referring to
23:27
hadn't happened yet when I wrote it.
23:29
So they became like my own tarot card or something, you know,
23:33
like a just using words to make sense of your reality, you know,
23:39
or to put put things in a unexplainable events into some
23:42
sort of context. Yeah, Well, I have to say
23:44
personally, I, you know, when it comes to the sort of the cosmic
23:47
mystical side of, of life, I, I quite like the sense that there
23:51
are mysteries that are sort of unexplainable.
23:54
You know, things like writing something and then in the future
23:56
you go, oh, apparently that was about this.
23:58
But this couldn't have been what I was thinking of because it
24:00
hadn't happened yet. You know, I'm I quite kind of
24:02
like that sense that we are actually quite small within the
24:04
universe and it will always have surprises.
24:08
For sure, for sure. I mean, anytime we have, we
24:11
don't have to do anything. But I feel better accepting
24:15
certain things are just a mystery and will remain a
24:18
mystery. And that's OK, because as soon
24:20
as people start telling you they've figured it out, that's
24:22
when you should probably stop listening to them.
24:27
Yes, I agree. I wanted to just touch on one
24:29
more thing about your your singing.
24:31
I was thinking to myself, you know, without embarrassing you,
24:33
you are one of my my favorite voices in music.
24:37
And I completely appreciate that from your point of view, when
24:40
you are, you know, losing your voice, when you can feel your
24:43
range is going, they're going to be all kinds of frustrations.
24:45
And, you know, maybe like just a randomly popping into my head.
24:48
I know that, for example, Kurt Cobain apparently did not like
24:51
his voice at all. And yet, you know, for many
24:54
people, he's this gigantic inspiration.
24:55
And I was thinking to myself, a lot of my favorite singers like
24:59
people that I wanted to sound like and then decided I don't
25:01
have that voice at all. Like people like yourself, Mark
25:04
Lanigan, Nick Cave, Greg Dully, they don't necessarily have
25:09
like, you know, classic singing styles.
25:12
You know, it's like I can appreciate an opera singer for
25:14
the for the beauty of the of the technical capacity, but somehow
25:19
there's a kind of like a raw expression as well as having a
25:22
resonance that really connects with me.
25:24
I mean, I'm wondering just for you as a vocalist, in terms of
25:26
your inspirations, are there any particular people that have sort
25:30
of guided or you know, sort of that you felt like something
25:33
that you aspire to locally? Mostly, I guess it's just
25:38
authenticity, you know? I mean, yeah, what?
25:40
I wouldn't pay to have a Mark Lanigan type voice, so to have
25:44
you put me in the same sentence is not worthy.
25:48
But thank you. But that, you know, like I
25:52
remember growing up and hearing people bag on Dylan because he
25:55
couldn't sing. Like, what the fuck are you
25:57
talking about? You know, like, like you think
25:59
all these kind of whitewashed folk groups that came up in the
26:02
50's and 60's where they were perfect voices and perfect
26:05
singers redoing like Blues or country ballads but turning them
26:10
into vanilla garbage, you know? So I guess I always look for
26:14
authenticity and I love unique voice.
26:17
Like, I love Sandy Denny is one of my favorite voices of all
26:20
time, you know, both in Fairport Convention and with her solo
26:24
work at that. Just gets me, gets me every
26:26
time. Like, it just feels so powerful.
26:30
Bob Dylan, Willie Nelson and his phrasing, you know, like he
26:34
wasn't taken seriously at first because he wrote great songs and
26:37
other people made them famous. You know, he didn't get his due
26:40
until until much later in his career when that kind of outlaw
26:45
hippie cowboy combo came out of Texas, you know, but but his
26:50
phrasing is so unique and so incredible.
26:52
I just, I just love those unique voices, you know, whether
26:55
they're whether they're hardcore from hardcore punk, like John
26:58
Brannon is a huge influence. I mean, first of all, when
27:01
growing up with hardcore and you, you didn't have a whole lot
27:04
back then. You had minor threat, Bad
27:06
Brains, negative approach and, and all great voices in his
27:09
opinion of the fucking wall. You know, so powerful then for
27:12
him to develop into that Blues driven druggy dirge of laughing
27:17
hyenas where he was able to use that powerful voice with so much
27:22
soul and expression and anguish and a broader range of emotional
27:28
expression. I that's one of my favorite
27:30
voices. Obviously, Lanigan is
27:32
incredible. I love the way Johnny's Cash's
27:35
voice feels in his elder years when it becomes vulnerable and
27:39
very fragile. I think those records really
27:42
carry a carry a weight because he's still letting it hang out
27:46
there, even though he's maybe in some ways must have not have
27:49
felt like he once was, you know? But it was.
27:52
But he was maybe pure, pure of heart in his reflective days.
27:58
So yeah, whatever's, whatever's a compelling, moving, strong
28:02
voice. I mean, you know, fucking Chuck
28:05
D, you know, like anything he narrates, I will listen to it
28:09
like he did it. When Spotify first started doing
28:12
audio books or audio series, there was a history of The Clash
28:15
narrated by Chuck D I'm like. Oh wow.
28:18
I'm in. Yeah, for sure, I'll.
28:21
Listen to that voice tell me stories all day and and even
28:24
just with regards to voice. Like, I'm a big reader, but I've
28:27
also really gotten into audiobooks if the author is
28:32
reading that in their own voice. I feel just the same way.
28:34
Yeah, I want to hear it in their voice.
28:36
Like hearing Bruce Springsteen read his life story in his own
28:41
voice is perfect, you know? And and.
28:45
Yeah. So.
28:46
So yeah, I guess just authenticity and that they mean
28:49
it. No, I think that's a really
28:50
great point that you make because, yeah, despite the fact
28:52
that I do have these these great sort of inspirations in terms of
28:56
singers should never mean that I really want ultimately to sound
29:01
like them. You know, it's like, I'm never
29:03
going to sound like Tom Waits and I would never want to sound
29:06
like a third rate version of Tom Waits.
29:08
So I think ultimately, yeah, you're you're absolutely
29:11
undisputably right that you've got to find whatever is the
29:14
authentic voice and that could be anything.
29:16
And you can be inspired by people that don't sound anything
29:18
like you, and they can still inspire you even if you're
29:20
entirely sonically unrelated to them.
29:22
I don't want to keep you too much longer, certainly along the
29:25
topic of, you know, not making you have to talk for longer than
29:29
is necessary. It's.
29:30
My last one for today, so we're all right.
29:32
All right, cool. I wanted to, I wanted to touch
29:34
on new Ross. I was talking with Josh Graham
29:38
not so long ago and we were talking about the, his guiltless
29:41
project and he was speaking very fondly of you and, and of new
29:44
Rot recordings. And I also have very fond
29:47
feelings about your recordings. You know, you seem like a
29:49
really, it seems like a great ethical record label with great
29:52
principles. And I, and I love a lot of the,
29:54
the varied music that you put out on it.
29:56
I'm saying you a lot, but I, I would actually like to kind of
29:59
understand a bit about Neurot. Like I think you Co founded it
30:03
with other members of Neurosis, but I have a feeling that you're
30:05
kind of central to it now. Could you tell me a little bit
30:08
of the story in a sort of brief version of of Neurot recordings
30:12
and how it got to the point that it's at now?
30:14
It's been run out of my house since we started it.
30:17
Yeah. So artistically we came up with
30:21
the ideas together of how what we want.
30:23
Initially it was going to just be a home for our stuff.
30:26
We had had great experiences on great levels on great labels.
30:30
You know, you know, we started out on Alchemy Records, which
30:33
disappeared and got weird. But it's, you know, it's where
30:35
Melvin's first record and some early Poison idea was and Clown
30:38
Alley, like great company to be in for a first album and then
30:41
look out for our second record, which, you know, was more of a
30:45
we were kind of the black sheep artistically in that.
30:47
But those were our people of the Gilman street scene in in
30:50
Berkeley at that time, you know, Green Day and Isocracy and
30:54
Operation Ivy and and bands like that.
30:57
And then we had the great privilege of being on
30:59
Alternative Tentacles, which had a heavier, more psychedelic
31:04
abstract, you know, but still varied.
31:07
You know, you had Senegueva and PHK from Hungary and Alice Donut
31:11
and, you know, just so many great bands.
31:15
And then we went to Relapse when the heavy music world started
31:20
becoming. It was weird.
31:22
There was a moment in time there where punk seem to be close,
31:25
like narrowing its vision and heavy metal started opening its
31:29
mind, which which as a bunch of punks, we thought that was
31:32
pretty weird, you know, But whatever, you go where you're
31:34
wanted, right? And, and so we spent some time
31:37
on Relapse and, and, and, you know, so here's these guys that
31:41
grew up more on metal, but we're also into punk and hardcore and
31:45
like Japanese noise and strange avant-garde musics.
31:48
Like, OK, this is really interesting.
31:49
And then really just kind of buy all these open minded labels
31:52
that were really just more about the spirit and the energy and
31:57
the drive. It made sense at the time that
31:59
we just should make our own, create our own home so that we,
32:02
we can, we didn't have any money, still don't have any
32:05
money, but we had enough clout to get distribution right.
32:09
So if if we if we press up some records, we we would at least
32:12
have a shot at getting them out there.
32:13
And that started in 99 and we slowly kind of built it up.
32:18
And was that with was Grace the first release that you had the
32:21
companion to Times of Grace? That was at least really early
32:24
on catalog number wise. That's maybe it's right in
32:31
there. The first releases were, I think
32:33
we left open catalogs. We had gotten the rights back to
32:37
our first 3 records. And so we left those.
32:40
We left those open. But I don't know the order in
32:42
which those happened. My first solo one was #6 so
32:46
yeah, Grace must have been right in there, four or five.
32:49
And yeah, we felt like that was a great opportunity.
32:51
We, we put like a coupon in the relapse version of Times of
32:55
Grace for people to order Grace directly from us as a kind of a
32:59
way to build, build our own label based on, you know, ride,
33:04
ride relapses, coattails for a second.
33:06
That's. Pretty savvy for some punk kids.
33:11
Do whatever you got to do, man, you know, hanging Flyers on
33:14
telephone poles. So yeah, at that point we, we
33:17
did have a manager for a brief period of time and that that
33:20
ended shortly after that. And my ex-wife was in in the
33:24
business of running labels and she worked with our manager at
33:28
the time to help us start it. And then we brought it into our
33:31
home when we, well, it already was, but we got rid of
33:35
management and I, I became kind of the managing partner, you
33:39
know, of, of the group and just kind of over, I mean, what do
33:43
you, if you're on independent labels in your own label, what
33:45
do you need a fucking manager for?
33:46
You need a booking agent to get you shows.
33:48
And if you have 4th grade math skills, you can balance a
33:52
checkbook, right? So, but we had distribution,
33:55
which was great that, that's what we needed to survive at
33:58
that time. And, and we've barely held on
34:01
over the years. It, it switched.
34:04
I, I took it over all myself. I don't know that was, but I've,
34:08
I've always had somebody helping me as the kind of a label
34:12
manager. Like right now the way it works
34:14
is it's about 20 feet that way in the barn.
34:17
I, we have a part time label manager that comes in a few days
34:20
a week and, and takes care of stuff from home as well, just to
34:23
get stuff where it needs to go and to help me with the product
34:25
management while I'm teaching school.
34:27
And you know, we, we try not to live in debt.
34:30
We, you know, if sometimes you know, we we get it really is
34:37
touch and go like I as much as I'm a vinyl fan, it was easier
34:41
in the CD days because you had less upfront costs.
34:44
You know, like vinyl is beautiful.
34:47
I prefer it as a format, just as a fan, but it's really expensive
34:51
to make, you know, every, every unsold LP is a $10.00 bill on
34:55
the shelf out there, you know, and, but we've, we've barely
34:59
held, barely barely hung on, but we're still here.
35:03
And I really like being able to call my own shots and be able to
35:06
like, decide I'm going to release 3 Harvest Man records
35:09
this year, even if I have to float the cost of those pressing
35:12
myself because the label can't afford to indulge my, you know.
35:16
Conceptual triple album Vision. Yeah, so I'll use the big bucks
35:20
I get from being a primary school teacher to fund my
35:24
lifestyle. But you know, fundamentally what
35:29
I still what I still get out of it is I get we had these labels
35:33
that helped us on our way who didn't have the means, not
35:36
necessary financial, but just distribution or know how to get
35:40
a record out there. And so if we can help other
35:43
artists the way we were helped, if we can also put out artists
35:46
that we feel puts our music amongst our peers that we choose
35:51
instead of some who somebody else chooses.
35:53
And I also like the kind of old world value of you buy the chair
35:57
from the chair maker and you buy the shoes from the Shoemaker and
36:00
you buy the album from the artist, you know, seems to be
36:04
the only way that makes sense. You know, it's, it's, it's still
36:08
is a struggle out there. And we, you know, but we're
36:10
still here 20 something 252626 years later.
36:15
And yeah, I haven't closed the doors yet, so.
36:18
Yeah, I mean, I can believe it's a struggle, but it's inspiring,
36:21
you know, I think you're definitely fighting the good
36:22
fight. Ever since I discovered DIY in
36:25
the in the mid late 80s, I I just wanted to participate.
36:29
I just wanted to be a part of it.
36:31
Before I had a band anybody gave a shit about or whatever, I
36:33
started a fanzine. I had the idea to start a record
36:38
label. I started a band, I put on gigs
36:40
and backyards or or whatever, made Flyers.
36:44
I I just wanted to be a part of creating an alternative culture,
36:48
an alternative to the mainstream culture that we don't believe
36:50
in. And I was inspired by all My
36:53
Hero, Maximum Rock'n'roll Discord records over in the UK,
36:58
John Loader and all the labels that he helped crash and
37:02
Subhuman start. And you know, and that kind of
37:06
DIY movement around the world at that time of, of when it was
37:10
fucking difficult. He had to actually write a
37:12
letter and put a stamp on an envelope and mail something to
37:16
somebody in hopes of making connection with a punk band in
37:20
Sweden or Poland or, you know, so really that just kind of that
37:24
put me on my life path. And some of us in that, not all
37:28
of us, but some of us from that time became life 1st.
37:31
And I still meet those people. I just was at Rd.
37:33
Burn and Holland two weeks ago and I met people I met on my
37:36
very first trip to Europe. Wow.
37:38
You know, and it's so it's, it's been my community, it's been my
37:43
purpose and A and a home for my artistic freedom.
37:46
Yeah, I think community is a very important concept and so
37:49
thinking about the release of Alone in a World of Wounds in
37:53
terms of people getting hold of it and, you know, playing shows
37:56
to support the record, What have you got lined up and what actual
37:59
formats is it going to be available on?
38:01
It will be available on LPCD and digital and of course streaming
38:07
for free. And so coming up for it, I've
38:11
got a band camp listening party which has, I've did that with my
38:14
Triptych records. I wasn't sure what it would be
38:16
like. They're actually quite fun.
38:17
You, you get on schedule for a certain time and it just starts
38:20
playing through the band camp app and people can talk to you
38:24
and engage with you all while it's going and you can kind of
38:27
share some anecdotes about the process and, and about what you
38:31
remember about it. It's, it's pretty satisfying,
38:33
you know, conversation to have their open with people and
38:36
people been super respectful and responsive that.
38:38
So that's been fun. In a few weeks I'm headed to
38:41
Toronto for the prepare the ground festival where I'm doing
38:44
a harvest man set and A and a solo set of mostly new material.
38:48
Rd. Burn 2 weeks ago was the first
38:50
time I played with Brent Arnold, the cello player who's on my
38:53
last two records, who actually wrote all the string
38:55
arrangements. First time playing with him.
38:57
It it really it's I've had great cello players in my last couple
39:00
tours, but having the guy that actually wrote the parts has
39:04
been really satisfying. So I'm looking forward to
39:06
continuing that with him on there.
39:08
Prepare the ground and then end of June into July I've got three
39:12
weeks of European dates, mostly Central Europe, no UK, no
39:15
Scandinavia, no Spain or Portugal.
39:18
Sorry I only got 3 weeks. There's a lot of Europe out
39:22
there. Yeah, but again, it's going to
39:25
be me and Dave French and Brent Arnold kind of just taken out
39:29
this this new record. The set is mostly the new record
39:32
and a couple songs off the previous one, and maybe we'll
39:35
throw an older one there and because it's a headliner set.
39:38
But I'm like I said, right now, I'm inspired about I'm inspired
39:41
to sing into these soundscapes. And so that that's kind of what
39:45
I want to explore. And we're actually taking a guy
39:47
from Leeds out as main support who I met at Rd.
39:50
Byrne. His his name is Matthew Broadly
39:53
and his Pro is a thing is called Greet.
39:55
It's just harmonium and voice. And I think that'll be really
39:59
cool to take that out there. Very, very kind of, he's very
40:02
aligned with that kind of. Pagan leaning megalith culture
40:09
fanzine, like that kind of new fanzine world that's been
40:12
blowing up in the UK in the last several years with with scenes
40:16
like Weird Walk and Hellbore. And yeah, there's, it's a whole,
40:19
I don't know if you're aware of it, but it's a whole universe
40:21
going on. It sounds like I've got a little
40:23
bit of homework today. Oh yeah, it's cost me a lot of
40:25
postage of buying these fan scenes from the UK.
40:28
Yeah, well, there you go. I've got the advantage in that
40:30
respect. Then I have no excuse.
40:32
No excuse. So go get your weird walk on and
40:35
then I'll come back just in time to play this Fire in the
40:37
Mountains festival, which happening on the Black Feet
40:40
Nation in Montana, about 6 hours due east of my place here.
40:45
Where and I'm going to go off on a tangent here, but it's going
40:49
to be one of the most unique things I've ever been a part of.
40:53
Fire in the Mountains as a festival began with some metal
40:56
heads wanting to have extreme music and extreme environments
41:00
because they're all kind of outdoors people as well.
41:03
So they were doing it right. It was in view of the Grand
41:05
Teton Mountains. They'd like rent a ranch and put
41:09
on a festival of which started off slow with smaller local
41:13
bands. And then a couple years ago I
41:14
played their biggest 1 to date where they brought Enslaved over
41:17
from Norway and they had YAB as one of the headliners.
41:20
I had headlined the opening night as kind of the acoustic
41:23
stuff, but also had like some slim Cessna related.
41:28
So they were definitely varying the genre around.
41:29
But what really impressed me about this was not just so you
41:32
had to leave No trace eco friendly heavy music festival in
41:36
this heavy environment, but they had all these lectures and talks
41:39
which had indigenous perspectives, native
41:42
perspectives on music and it's connection to landscape,
41:44
ethnobotany, walks of native plants, yoga, like all these
41:48
things was like what is going on here?
41:50
Like are these Western US black meddlers becoming the new like
41:55
Wellness hippie generation, but with a with a deeper context,
41:59
like, you know, like they've got an edge on it.
42:01
And they lost their venue because the rich people in
42:04
Jackson Hole, Wyoming didn't want them to return.
42:06
And as they were looking for a new spot, this guy who I'm now
42:09
proud to call a friend, this guy Charlie Spicer, who lives on the
42:12
Black Feet Reservation. He is the director of the
42:16
alternative high school there, Buffalo Hyde Academy.
42:19
He brought them out there to check out this kind of beautiful
42:23
land out there and their sacred, sacred landscapes of the, of the
42:27
Black Feet Nation. They're just east of Glacier
42:29
National Park and asked them if they would consider bringing it
42:33
out there. The caveat being if they would
42:36
work with the Black Feet Nation and the tribal council,
42:38
especially them in the schools to help fight the suicide
42:44
epidemic that the youth are experiencing.
42:46
The target age being between, you know, junior high and high
42:49
school age. It has just fucking exploded in
42:52
the last several years. And these badasses that have
42:56
started the Firekeeper of Alliance, of which now I'm a
42:59
board member, they're wanting to change the whole idea of mental
43:03
health, what mental health work looks like in Indian country.
43:08
It has to be indigenized, it has to be with in alignment with
43:13
native heritage and philosophy and their connection to their
43:16
land. All the people there are working
43:19
are part of that community. Most of them are have been there
43:22
with their families for 10s of thousands of years connected to
43:25
this site. And so they're out there working
43:27
with these kids that are again struggling.
43:29
Obviously, you know in intergenerational trauma due to
43:33
settler colonialism is huge. So they're not only wanting to
43:37
indigenize mental health practice, but what's unique and
43:40
where I come in is that they're acknowledging the power, the
43:43
cathartic power of heavy intense music, punk, hardcore and metal
43:47
to as a protective measure against suicide.
43:50
It because of community like we spoke about, you can find your
43:53
people, you can destigmatizing that style, those styles of
43:57
music in rural communities, you know, even even Indian countries
44:01
going to have the old folks that don't understand your crazy
44:04
record covers, right? And that can actually help you
44:06
process intense emotions. And if you can make this music,
44:11
even if it's just with you and your buddies, you have an
44:13
outlet, a creative outlet for these intense emotions.
44:18
And so one of the six pillars of this of this nonprofit is
44:23
utilizing heavy music as a creative outlet.
44:26
And so they've partnered with this festival and our group, the
44:30
Firekeeper Alliance is now putting on all of those side
44:33
programming, all of the lectures and talks.
44:35
And they are heavy duty. They aren't topics you would
44:38
expect to see at a heavy music festival.
44:41
You know, processing trauma, processing grief, holding space
44:46
for those that you have lost and all these things amidst.
44:50
I think Wardruna is their big headliner this which they're
44:53
bringing in this year, which is fucking incredible.
44:56
And Firekeeper Alliance Charlie, he's a massive Converge fan.
45:00
So we, we bring in and Converge as they're as the kind of
45:04
Firekeeper Alliance chosen band because of, of Jacob's lyrics
45:08
and, and how that reaches people who are struggling and overcome
45:12
tough times. You know, we all, we've all,
45:14
everybody I talked to about is like, wow, you know, I've always
45:17
believed that music has gotten me through heavy times and
45:20
through heavy stuff, but I never thought about actually applying
45:23
it as a Wellness strategy outright.
45:25
And yeah, they're teaching a class as their first semester.
45:28
Several of us from the community, EVAR from Enslaved,
45:31
Nate from Converge, myself, Mike Scheit from YAB, several others
45:34
have zoomed into these classes, classes and let them interview
45:37
us about how creating and being a fan of this heavy, intense
45:41
music has gotten us through difficult times and how we use
45:44
it as a Wellness practice and how creativity can keep you
45:47
connected and help you find community and what have you.
45:50
So it's, it's a pretty intense, pretty beautiful thing.
45:53
And I'm, I'm really looking forward to that event and how it
45:56
comes off. It's, it's pretty unique for a
45:58
tribal community and an outside like heavy music.
46:01
I don't think anything like this has ever, ever happened
46:03
actually. So that that's going to be the
46:06
summer highlight for sure. And that beyond that event, this
46:09
alliance and the work that they're doing on the daily with
46:12
the students there is really inspiring.
46:15
Well, inspiring is the word, Steve, I have to say.
46:17
I mean, I was already inspired listening to you talk, but this
46:20
sounds like a fantastic project. So I think this is, yeah, really
46:24
exciting stuff that you're involved with and sounds
46:27
incredibly valuable. And yeah.
46:29
So I just want to thank you so much for the generosity of your
46:32
time. It's been it's been great to
46:33
talk with you. It's been great to get your
46:34
insights. I'm I'm inspired listening to
46:37
you talk. I'm inspired by your music.
46:39
The latest record is great. I hope that it gets a fantastic
46:41
reception when it comes out and I hope that you have a fantastic
46:44
time taking it on the road as well.
46:45
Well, thank you, Tom. As you, as you can guess, I also
46:48
appreciate your work as it takes all of us to make this community
46:51
and and you know, without venues for weird artists to speak about
46:55
things, we'd just be spitting in the wind.
46:59
So it it takes all of us to make this community.
47:01
So thank you for your time and your work and your thoughtful
47:03
discourse. I appreciate it.
47:04
Thank you so much, Steve. It's been my pleasure.
47:06
All the best. Yeah, you too, man.