Latest / Making Shooters Better / Marine. Attorney. Instructor - Brian Taylor's Journey Post 9.11

Transcript

Marine. Attorney. Instructor - Brian Taylor's Journey Post 9.11 · Making Shooters Better

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: So our goal is to make everything as close to a real world situation as we can.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: And between, you know, video scenario trainer, uh, tactical targets, the IpsyC courses, the shoot house, and the the CQB targets in a box, we can set those up and the programming is great.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: We can make it a a shoot target, a no-shoot target, the number of shots, and we can reconfigure that every run if we want to.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it takes a matter of seconds to do that, so it's great.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to Making Shooters Better.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Terry Vaughan and this is brought to you by Laser Ammo.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'll talk to you more about them in a little while.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Today's guest has worn many hats throughout his career, but each role has kept him exploring the same three themes responsibility, protection, and the consequences that accompany the use of force.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Brian's a former United States Marine Corps infantry squad leader who learned early that marksmanship is only one small piece of surviving dangerous situations.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: After the military, he worked in armed security and executive protection, where reading people, avoiding problems, and also making good decisions under stress often mattered more than drawing a firearm.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Then he did something quite unusual.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: He became an attorney.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: Today Brian combines more than two decades of firearm experience with over a decade of legal expertise to teach students not just how to defend themselves, but how to navigate the legal, ethical, and practical realities that come with carrying a firearm.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: During this conversation, we're going to explore his journey from marine infantryman to security professional, from attorney to firearms instructor, and why he ultimately founded Precision Shooting Center to create a place where everyday people can learn life-saving skills without intimidation.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, Brian, welcome to Making Shooters Better.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: How are you doing, Terry?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: Good, mate.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh great.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: And it's funny because we jumped on here and started talking before I hit record, and there were some gold nuggets that you were already throwing out, and I'm like, wait, wait, we gotta come back, we gotta get this on tape.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: All right, sounds good.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: So, how old were you when you first started shooting, mate?
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: So when I first started shooting, I was I was late into life, about 21.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: I actually come from a inner-city Chicago family who uh was not involved in guns or outdoor activities.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: It was uh more inner city life.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: And um I I met some friends that were interested in shooting, and I decided I just wanted to pick up.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: So um in Illinois at the time you had to be 21 to own a handgun.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: And once I turned 21, I purchased my first handgun, and I I still own that gun today.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: You still have it?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's funny, what is it?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh interestingly, it's a Beretta 92 FS, which is the same firearm that uh the Marine Corps carried at that time.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: No, I didn't.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh at the time it was just uh I went in and I checked out a bunch of different firearms, and that's the one that I ended up purchasing.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: Is that the one you sort of felt best in your hand, ready to go?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, full size, and I've always preferred the the metal firearms over the plastic.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: I like I like that weight in the firearms, so it felt good.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: And at the time I I didn't know anything, right?
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: I had no one in my family who had ever shot guns before.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, where we firearms were if you were engaging in criminal activity, was the only reason you had one.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: In in inner city Chicago, you couldn't you couldn't own firearms at the time in the house.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: So Interesting.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: Has that changed any for Chicago?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um All I know about Chicago is it has some of the strictest gun laws and some of the highest crime.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm I'm not that well versed.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: Has anything changed in that regard?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think they've loosened up a little.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there was there was some uh legal decisions that you know you're allowed to have firearms for defense in the home.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, previously they basically no firearms at all.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and now you're able to uh have firearms for safety in the home and that, and the the full-on ban was uh eliminated.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's still a more restricted area, as you're aware, and also high crime.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I I've lived in multiple cities that are very restrictive, and they it doesn't seem to help the crime any.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I was stationed in Washington, D.C., I was in Los Angeles, all these areas have high gun regulations, and doesn't seem to help the crime any.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: One might argue that because the criminals are not going to abide any of the laws, anyway.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to get sidetracked because I get on my soapbox.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: So do you remember how you did shoot in that gun?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: Did was it, you know, you were accurate?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: What where'd you end up?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was I was okay.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I honestly I I would I don't think I was a natural shooter, um, but I I worked at it.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: I definitely enjoyed it.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: I had a smile from ear to ear after shooting, and uh I've enjoyed it ever since.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I had I had never shot a rifle uh before going into the Marine Corps.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: So And what drove you to join the Marines?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I've always had some interest in it.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then obviously I went in and shortly after 200 uh one I looked at getting into the Marine Corps.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: So after 9-11, um, and interestingly, I learned you don't just walk into a recruit station and say, I want to be an infantry marine, and they're like, hop on a boat and send you overseas.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: It takes quite a while.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um for me, it was roughly a one-year period of going through.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: So the recruit station only had so many slots available uh for each MOS or your military specialty, and I was set on either being infantry or a military police, and so they were just kind of waiting, and ultimately they had a um reserve infantry recruit fall out and a slot came open, and that's how I was able to go in as an infantry marine.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: And did you have friends or family that were you know that went you know were supporting you during this, or did they all think you were nuts?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I actually didn't tell my parents until after I uh decided to enlist.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: So uh at the time my mom traveled and she came home from being out of town, and I was like, hey, just so you know, I signed up for the Marine Corps, and um she was working for the government implementing systems at the time, and so she started asking me, like, how did you score on the ASVAB and this and that, which is the test to see what type of job you can get.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I scored off the charts on that.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: And she goes, Oh, great, what you know, you're gonna be a pilot or a mechanic or so No, I picked infantry and so she was like what?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, What of each job?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And uh interestingly, the recruiters told me the same thing.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, everyone who gets these high ASVAB scores, they pick jobs that we don't need an ASVAB score for, and then someone that comes in and scores awful on the ASVAB, they want to be a mechanic or something, and they're like, You don't have a high enough score to get that MOS.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's hilarious, but you you chose that and mom was not happy.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's funny because joining the Royal Marines was not my idea.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: I had a friend back, you know, in the this would have been about 1990, so three three, four hundred years ago, and we were both doing uh Muay Thai at the time, and I'd meet up with this guy a few times a week to spa, and every time I did, he would tell me about the Royal Marine Commandos, how hard it is to get in, how difficult it is to pass out, earn your British Green Beret, on and on and on and on he went until he got to the point where I was sick of hearing about it.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I said, you know what?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: Let's join.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'll go with you, we'll join up together.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: Guess who didn't show up at the careers office that day?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: But of course, the the guy who was doing the recruiting, I'm pacing outside the store and uh the recruiting office, and he comes out and says, You're blocking my doorway.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: What are you doing?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, I can't even tell you half the things he said because of how insulting it was, but it made me very defensive.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, no, I'm here for somebody else.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: That bloke didn't show up.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: And he says, Well, you know what we look for here in the Royal Marines, we look for people who do, not people who talk about doing.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, he's like, Would you like to watch a video?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: And as soon as they showed, you know, all the boats and blowing shit up and doing all the stuff that, you know, the the the fancy stuff I was in.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: But he it was funny, he he wouldn't my my next conversation with him, because I couldn't just call him, it's not like there were cell phones.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't see him till the next time we were hanging out.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: And he's like, Yeah, my wife decided that's not what she wanted me to do.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that was the end of the discussion.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: So he didn't join.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: Nuts, isn't it, how life works out.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: So what was the biggest lesson you took out of uh boot camp?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think the the biggest lesson I learned in boot camp was, you know, mind over matter.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um Marine Corps boot camp is a a long time.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's 13 weeks, it's the the longest of all the branches in the the US military.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: And every task that you get, it's something where you just don't see how you're going to be able to accomplish that, right?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: They put this 60-pound ruck on your back and they tell you to run up the side of a mountain, those types of things, and especially coming from city life, you know, you you never had elevation and you never never wore ruck.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um but before you know it, it's getting easier and easier, and before you know it, you're proficient in that task, and that that's just one after another.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Same with shooting rifles, those uh all of the different aspects throughout uh basic training.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: You you just you come into it and you're like, oh man, this is this is impossible.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then before you know it, it's easy.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: And when you get out of the Marine Corps, you just look at all these things as you do it every day and it's so easy, and you're like, Oh yeah, I if if it doesn't matter to me, I can get it done and I can accomplish it.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then you're out for 20 years and you're 45 years old and you're like, There's no way in hell I'm doing that again.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I I just think that's you know, you've you've learned that if if you have dedication and and commitment and you put the effort in, you can achieve the goal.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think one of the things I learned throughout this whole process was everything's a joke, which is actually some advice my grandfather gave me before I got in.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: He was a World War II veteran.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, I go to see him, I'm like, hey, granddad, I'm joining the Royal Marines, got any advice for me?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know what I expected, but he sort of looks at me like where you've lost your bloody mind.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then he says, uh, he says you never volunteer for anything, always be the gray man, and everything's a joke.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: And the last one, I was like, What do you mean everything is a joke?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I I'm good at telling jokes, is that what you mean?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: And he's like, You'll you'll get it.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then later during training, I realized you know, you just take everything in stride with humor, and you can overcome just about anything with some sarcasm and you know, uh twisted sense of humor.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: But it it was interesting to me some of the guys we lost along the way, because there were some fit guys that showed up, and I'm looking at them going, that guy's a beast.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: But take you know, five days with very little sleep, and suddenly that guy's you know, he folds up like a wet cardboard box.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: And that taught me, I think, that there's always something left in the tank.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: And use use humor, but you you know that you can push through.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: There's always more left you can give.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it's one of those things that's carried me through life, even when you know, you're a dog tired.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, well, you know, you're yeah, you're tired, but you've still got at least 30 or 40 percent left in the tank if you really want it.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it gives you that sense that you could and can push through just about all obstacles.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's interesting that you say the don't volunteer for anything was the guidance you got.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: I had an uncle who served in Vietnam, and that was one of the key points he gave me going into basic training was don't volunteer for anything.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Just keep your head down, run through it.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: And he told me a story when he was in Vietnam, they were doing training and it was a sucky day, and they were out all day, and then they stopped everyone and said, All right, who knows how to drive a truck?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: And a bunch of guys raised their hand thinking they were gonna get out of all the crap work, and he didn't.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And what those guys ended up having to do for the day was go drive and pick up the barrels of crap and stir it and and burn that.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like so he said, anytime you're volunteering for something and you think you're getting out of it, they're gonna teach you real quick that you're not getting out of anything.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: So funny.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because everyone who's served has seen something like that happen where somebody put their hand up and went, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm I'm doing this.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: This is gonna be great, because I was gonna get me out of something else.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Only ends up the task is three times worse than it would have been if you just kept your hand down.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's bloody funny.
• 13:43
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• 13:47
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• 13:50
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• 13:59
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• 14:13
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• 14:15
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• 14:31
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• 14:32
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• 14:48
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• 14:53
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• 14:57
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• 15:00
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• 15:01
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• 15:06
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• 15:11
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• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: For now, let's get you back to the episode.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: So you eventually became a squad leader.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, what how old were you when that happened?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I went into the Marine Corps late, so I was twenty-two when I went in and or twenty-one and I would have been twenty-three when I became a squad leader.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I I had came off of the parade deck when I first went in the Marine Corps, I was picked to go to Eighth and I.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I did funeral detail and um, you know, all of that and ceremonies in Washington, D.C., while everyone else that I went through basic training with and SOI, you know, had two, three combat deployments given the time that it came in.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: So when I got back to the fleet after uh my first you know year and a half, they instantly put me into squad leaders course because I was the only corporal in my platoon.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: And um they were like, Yeah, you're gonna go to squad leader's course and and kind of learn how to be an infantry marine, right?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that was uh that was an eye-opening experience for me, and it was great, and I had good instructors and a lot of the other Marines who had come back from deployments went through that with me.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: And um I just latched on to people that had good experience and good knowledge, and I listened and I learned, and I it it was a tough environment coming from marching and ceremonies going into a unit that had seen multiple deployments, right, and expecting these younger Marines to follow me.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I just, you know, I sat them down early and said, Hey, I understand you guys have the experience, but I'm a corporal.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: And at that time in the Marine Corps, if you're like, hey, I don't want to be a squad leader, they're like, okay, you're not a corporal anymore, we're gonna drop your rank.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I go, well, that's not happening.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: So um I just had a really frank conversation with the guy and said, Look, I'm the leader, my decision's gonna stand, but I'm gonna respect your experiences and listen to you and learn from your experiences.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that went well.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think honesty like that often goes well.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: But everybody knows that somebody ultimately has to have final say.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: So what do we used to call it in the British militia, Chinese Parliament?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody gets a say.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody gets to kind of chip in and give some advice.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: And some of the best leaders I had during my time were guys that would say, okay, I'm thinking we're gonna do X, whatever the hell X was.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: But then they would say, Does anybody have any better ideas?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Now, invariably that was no.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: You just got blank faces, you got a bunch of knuckle draggers, like, oh no, you point me in that direction, that's where I'm going.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: But every once in a while you'd come across a situation for however obtuse, where that individual who didn't necessarily um, you know, what didn't have any rank per se, would say, I I think this might work well here.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: And if you had a good leader, they'd go, bloody hell, that's a great idea.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do that.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Now, that didn't happen all the time.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I think one of the most um powerful portions of leading from that perspective is if everybody has an opportunity to chip in with an idea, if you don't have an idea, especially one that's better than the one that's been put to you by, you know, the guy with the most experience theoretically, then there's buy-in from everybody else.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: Because, well, I didn't have a better idea, so this is the shit we're doing.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: Let's go do it.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then everybody's committed.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: But that probably is one of the reasons why I think that may have served you well.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's having that honest conversation, saying, listen, you've had the experience, ultimately the decision is mine.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: However, I'm gonna listen to your experience.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: So if you you tell me X, Y, and Z might be better here, I'm all in with that.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's that was a huge aspect that I took with me into corporate security was you know, I ended up managing a national security operation for contract security, and the company would push down change that had to be implemented globally across the country.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you had people from the East Coast and the Midwest and the West Coast, and trying to get that buy-in was difficult.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: But if you went to people ahead of time and said, hey, this is what we're trying to achieve, this is how it is, here's my plan for implementing it, what do you think?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: And they would come back to me with ideas and and kind of as you s said, if if they didn't have an idea, then they just kind of sat back and listened, right?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you would um and then as long as you tried to weave in or explain to people why we can't implement it the way they want, whether it's budgetary or you know, the system just can't do that um aspect of whatever they're trying to implement, I think that too brings in buy-in that they know that you've listened to them and that you've thought through it, right?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you're not just driving down orders.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh which you know, and the Marine Corps was huge when it's if you can get someone to listen to you through respect and the fact that you're there working as opposed to just the rank on your sleeve, uh it it's it's way easier to get the job done when the Marines or the subordinates are following you because they trust you and know that you've took some time in learning um what you're doing rather than you're just barking orders at them because you have a a certain rank or a position.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I completely agree.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's very different, very different leadership, and you'll get so much more out of your team, generally speaking, if they feel like they've been heard, all the best ideas have been put forward, now the decision is made, okay, we decision is done, let's go do it.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, okay, that's a hundred percent.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, anyone that's in that in the group, troop section, whatever it ends up being, you're you got three guys who are dragging their feet.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's gonna make it so much more work for everybody else.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: It just is everybody a hundred percent with you are good to go.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: You could practically take over a country with like 12 guys that motivated, right?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you really could.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: So how long were you in and then talk us through leaving and then going into security?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I I did my four years.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um I actually got injured during squad leaders course, um, and I continued and finished up my time, but um realized that infantry was not going to be able to be a career path with my injuries, so I decided to get out after my first four years.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: What happened?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: What was your issue?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: This might be one of those things I talked to you about about uh, you know, I don't know if this is prepared for air or not.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: So we're all grown ups here, mate.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: And if it's too bad, we'll just delete it.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I was actually doing um night operation training where uh we had guys out on a outpost and everyone had their night as a squad leader and it was my night as a squad leader and I'm going from outpost to outpost checking on the the Marines and at the time I was carrying a saw machine gun so I didn't have night vision goggles on I had a night vision scope and I'm walking back up the hill and I trip on limestone rock and fell on limestone and took a pretty serious injury to the groin lost a lot of skin got a cut just awful and go back and sit down and check and I'm bleeding everywhere and grab the corman and he comes over and he checks on me and he's like oh shit I've never seen anything like that and I'm like man you you've done three combat tours I don't want to hear that that's not the thing I want to hear from you.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's the worst thing you hear out of the doc's mouth oh geez I'd never seen that before great thanks yeah so and then uh he's like well you need stitches and I'm like no way doc no no way so so he's like all right well keep it clean and let me know if anything goes and I continued on and we did our day hike and ran through the course of fire and um then went through the night course of fire like a thousand yard course and then squad leaders course when guys drop out they spread their gear right so you only have like a 60% of the guys that start that finish.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so at this time we're late into the course and I'm carrying the gear of like three guys on me right at the time and we're coming back through this ravine uh to our camp and I just black out and then I wake up my gear's off and everything and Corman comes out and instructors are like why are you you know complaining about get back on the line get ready and staff sergeant come over and looks and goes oh shit we got we got to get him out of here so they they evac me out and uh in a Humvee which was not a fun ride uh at that point but uh so evac me out get me to the hospital doc says you gotta stop your you know bed rest this is this is not a good injury you can't uh you can't keep training and this was on Friday and I call the instructor of the course on Saturday and I tell him what's happening and I go but I really don't want to cycle back through right because I knew if I went back to my unit and I hadn't passed squad leader's course they're gonna say go ahead and go back through you know twelve weeks and start again and I'm like well I don't want to do so I just ended up again mind over matter pushing through and uh completed the course with the injury and so yeah that that was it that's a hell of an example of mind over matter brother uh yeah when we're offline you'll have to ask me about guys would ask hey what did that feel like and my description uh for that is definitely probably not appropriate for the air it's funny because now everyone listening who's ever served is going to be going I get it I get it.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: So you became a squad leader how and then you did your four years.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: What was the catalyst for for getting out and making the decision to go into security and executive protection?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah so the injury was like I said I I wanted to be an infantry marine and and that just probably wasn't going to be in the cards for long term.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: So that was kind of my catalyst to get out and um when I got out I I was looking for work right and there's not a whole lot of jobs looking for guys who know how to blow things up and and shoot and those types of things.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: You had the leadership skill set right in the Marine Corps they develop leadership early on and you get into leadership roles uh quicker than pretty much any of the other branches of service.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I had that aspect going for me and ultimately I I got into corporate security but when I was getting out I actually I looked for jobs before I got out and I I I found a job in Minnesota doing um security for a nuclear power plant.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like okay that sounds up my alley you're you know you're tactically training you're gonna be at a a a hard site with uh you know a lot of security measures right up my alley um and then I get out and I go to that company's headquarters in St.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Paul and I'm like hey I'm here for job they're like oh you're at the wrong location we don't do uh nuclear power plant security here but we're hiring you know custom protection officers armed security and it was like all right well I'll do it.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well the pay was about half the job sucked but I I you know I had just gotten out and I'm like well I need something so I took it and then I uh early on I I rotated through all the different locations as armed security and some armed some not armed and I got into a a corporation and provided security and the the guy that ran security for them was a retired gunny from the Marine Corps and he brought me in and said you're gonna stop roaming around you're gonna come here you're gonna do security for us and then ultimately they built the the national account manager position and I I took over their their entire contract security operation.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: So is he part responsible for you ended up being executive protection?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: Because there's a difference between security armed or otherwise and then executive protection.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah so him and one of the other uh employees ran the uh executive protection detail for the company and they brought me in early on and I would start doing things like drive the vehicle and you know out he's a gunny right and I was the new guy so the first task I had to make sure that I was competent was could I get the the car detailed and cleaned and back into the parking garage in one piece.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: So to the required standard.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I I started out you know getting the car washes and doing those things and then I started going to the the um airport with them and checking you know there was a a small airport with private jets that would come in and out and so they had a hangar there and I would go and do the hangar checks and um then when the executive was out of town I would go do the checks on the house and make sure that the security system was up and running and the cameras and all of that and monitoring and um you know just just like a Marine he was he was developing me from the ground up right he was taking me through not the fun and the sexy things but all the things that had to get done like okay are the AEDs in the vehicle functioning are you know maintenance checks and security checks and making sure all the things and all the the prior planning to the event right and um one of the biggest things they had was you know we want to avoid the situation and we want to be prepared in advance.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: And the other employee that ran the detail was previously Secret Service, right?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: So very much it was ran like a Secret Service operation and very detailed and and very um attenuated on prior planning.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting you bring up the AED thing because you are absolutely correct the executive protection overall is unsexy.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're doing the job right it stays unsexy as well because you know advanced detail and all of the things that go into securing a location it's boring.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's just going you know crossing the T's and dotting the I's but you said AED and that resonated because at a conference last year it was a law enforcement conference a guy went down with a heart attack right now we're surrounded by high speed you know low drag shooters left and right and nobody needed a gun but we did need an AED right and they couldn't find one the hotel we were in did not have one.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: In fact it ended up being they used an AED from a vendor who had a booth at the conference and the they're obviously they're they're what they're doing they're showcasing different models but there's only ever one on the table that's charged and in working order and because obviously you're always worried about stuff getting stolen that would usually go home with that person at the end of the conference time.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: On that particular day just by pure happenstance she thought no this one's going to be fine I've already been told they secure the doors at the end of the conference it's going to be locked down.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna leave it that's the only reason there was an AED accessible because the hotel didn't have one where they needed one in that conference room and they saved this guy's life after the heart attack in combination with chest compressions and you know doing CPR on him using the AED to save his life.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: So it's so funny to me that we trained the sexy we love going in high speed get the shots right do the can from concealed or whatever the case may be but ultimately it's it's the somewhat mundane that often serves as the most likely thing to be used to save somebody's life.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: So while you were doing the security and you were sort of progressing through the executive security ladder starting at the bottom with detailing the car getting up to actually you know protecting people what was your shooting regimen at that point?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: Were you doing any?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I I would go shooting almost every week um even in the Marine Corps you know infantry we we never shot handguns in the Marine Corps but I continued to go to the gun range in my off time and shoot handguns and continued through wall in executive protection and and corporate security and all of those facets um just keep my skills sharp and ultimately got into uh some stints of running Ipsic competitions and those types of things and and getting in with groups that were doing different types of shooting to keep those skill sets fresh.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a huge believer in you know you don't just go get a carry permit, shoot once, put the gun away and and then expect to stay proficient, right?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's a perishable skill you need to stay with it and you need to stay sharp and um and this is the reality is the the vast majority of people that do exactly that get a carry permit and then put the gun in a lockbox next to the bed or in a you know bedroom safe or something and never then take that gun out to practice.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's the norm.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's not the other way around I can't tell you how many people I'm sure it is for you as well I've come across over the years they say well I have my carry permit I'm like when when was the last time you shot and they'll tell you you know months or potentially years prior.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: They're like well when I did my course we had to you know shoot and hit the target and I'm like that course was two years ago what have you done since then and they're looking at you like well you just haven't they haven't made time.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's never convenient to go and put in the time to train but it sounds like you were motivated enough to do it of your own volition.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: Did the security people did they sort of I assume they encouraged it but did they have a certain standard of shooting you had to to you know make in order to continue doing executive protection or no?
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well so on the executive protection side at that level we weren't armed.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: So everything everything at that point was prevention, right?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Avoidance, uh security measures in place, checks at the doors, um you know um scoping out the area in advance, making sure that all the protocols and everything were in place and then partnering with law enforcement.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that and we never had an incident the entire time I was there in security.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Other armed sites you almost had more incidents and that that might have been the nature of the location as well as some of the things but a lot of the armed sites aside from your really hard targets like the nuclear power plant they had a lot less preparedness.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: They you know honestly when I got out they handed you a ro you know a a six shot revolver gave you a holster had you shoot a paper target a few times and they're like all right go sit at this location and and protect it from shoplifters and you know most of the guys there were sitting there saying hey I'm getting paid$14 an hour someone walks out with some diapers have a nice day I'm not I'm not getting you know I'm not getting in a a shootout in inner city Minneapolis over diapers and Tylenol.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah no we we actually have a a couple of different security companies that use laser ammo's gear particularly VST Pro which is a video scenario trainer to train their personnel.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well the interesting part about them is their guards not all of them but many of them are armed but they basically say if something happens unless their life is actually in jeopardy due to whatever crime's been committed they're basically to report the facts to investigating officers after the fact.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: They're not supposed to intervene and they asked us to create video scenarios based on being observant rather than being defensive with a pistol which is you know much more in line with what law enforcement might be expected to do.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: So it doesn't surprise me in the least that they're basically you know like you know you don't need a gun.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: And of course if you're doing if your security is concentric rings of protection working back towards the VIP starting with physical security on the perimeter and you know coming back in stages then technically and of course hopefully there's never a need to pull a gun because they never get that close.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: But it that's one of the things I think that differentiates executive protection in the real world versus executive protection as it's displayed and portrayed in Hollywood which ruins everything for all gun owners everywhere.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's just that everything's glamorized you know it's always the the high speed sexy stuff over here when the reality is the security if it's done well is actually pretty bloody boring.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I mean it's all it's all about layers of protection right you have you have your cameras around the perimeter you have train staff monitoring the cameras right so if something's happening outside they're alerting you immediately and if it escalates you're contacting law enforcement and you have a direct connection relationship with the local law enforcement.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then obviously we had controls at the front door right so you come through you have to get through gates if you break through those gates that's again going to send a trigger that's going to alert right and it's a 30-story building you got to get in the elevator and then you have separate access for the executive floors where you need a specific key card to get in right and then you come in and there's a lobby area that can be locked down.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: So you have all of these different gates of access points that someone would have to get through so it's really about monitoring those access points and then having an evacuation or a lockdown plan and a plan accordingly that you would do and engaging is you know the the last step obviously in in more recent years with all the active shooters and that type of thing there's a much heavier need for on-site uh firearms and that type of thing and that training is definitely needed and there's a place for that for sure.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah I agree.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: I also something you mentioned with the situational awareness as it pertains to security because I think this is obviously there's the type of security necessary to secure a corporate building with executives inside maybe valuables or tech or something that you know other people might want to steal there's that level but there's also just the the transferable elements there for people individually at home and when they leave their home that there's there's an approach I think that they can take that helps them put themselves into a uh the lowest category possible for being engaged ending up on the receiving end of some sort of a crime using awareness.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: But awareness when you tell people be situationally aware tends to be a a a little bit uh simplistic because when you say pay attention it's like okay well I'm gonna pay attention but pay attention to what?
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: Everything right there there's things specific within the environment that allow you to narrow down that focus so that you're applying effort in the right way at the right time.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: Was there anything in particular during your time doing that that you're like okay these are the three things I think in this in the capacity of the job I'm doing now that I need to be looking for or scanning for that you think other people could utilize from a personal safety perspective?
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I mean awareness right is is the key thing and and just being situationally aware especially today we're in a world of walking around with your head down in a phone and you know that peripheral vision comes in and we're in that cone and just being up and alert and seeing what's around you clearly creates um less of a target and most people are just going to walk on to the next person, right, and create that target.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's the same thing in a corporate security and a preventative measure if you have everybody looking and being present and showing confidence that they know what they're doing, that's going to divert the person that's looking for an easy target.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: Now if you're securing something that someone wants, you're an armored truck driver or that type of thing, um obviously someone's coming in with a plan of attack and being alert will help you address that, but it may not necessarily prevent it.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: But um following those protocols, right, the way that the armored car companies set it up so you're not leaving doors open and you have different levers and actions that have to be taken to get to the product that's that's key, right?
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it's all proper proper prior planning and awareness.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: Piss pull performance so you know and and I'm a huge believer in that that the the more prepared you are and the more educated you are about the environment and what you're doing and tracking through your weak points, right?
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: Another thing we always did was site assessments.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: So you come in, you walk through the site you look around are there points that aren't covered by cameras are there points that security aren't focusing on and look at those weak points and then how far can you penetrate into the system before you identify that situation?
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because all of those barricades that I was talking about or those barriers provide you the time and space to react appropriately, right?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the same thing in a self-defense or in a home defense scenario the more time and space you can put between the threat gives you more time to react appropriately, right?
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: And kind of get your bearings about yourself.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah no completely agree.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's interesting to try to encourage people to be attentive especially in environments they've been a thousand times before where they potentially feel safest because it's hardest to convince those people that the risk is there.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't mean there's going to be a risk every day we know damn well there's not but you have to have a sort of an expectation that it's possible right expectation often dictates what we see or what we notice.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: And if we just say to ourselves it's possible something might happen we tend to open up our scope of what we're looking at within the environment and potentially able to see more of what might stand out.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: So one of the other layers I try to get people to do is to ask themselves wherever they go.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: Doesn't matter whether it's at home at the store at the church going to movies whatever wherever they may go is to ask themselves in every environment what do they expect to see what do they not expect to see and what's missing.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: So that they they're put in a position where they can baseline the environment there's an expectation of behavior in this environment at this time of day for um you know people with disemotion, right?
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: That what's the norm?
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: That gives you an a sort of a left and a right extreme of behavior and as long as it's within that the chances are it's probably and I use this in quotation normal.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: But if it's outside of the expected that is something of curiosity to us.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then what's what do you not expect to see that falls outside of the normal and then what's missing?
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: Behaviors that don't fit because they're sort of it looks like they're trying to fly under the radar.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I find that if you can give people is you know you alluded to there that those concrete steps of things they can focus on specifically rather than arbitrarily saying be attentive and then be attentive to what be attentive to everything.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: You're going to be bloody exhausted you'll never make it but if you give people specifics it tends to allow them that cognitive focus on the things that behaviorally speaking might stand out and give you that time and space that you reference.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because I I completely agree the more time and the more space you have the more options you have and of course as the time and space portion reduces so do your options So now the interesting part, right?
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: How did you go from executive protection to attorney?
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so uh again, just kind of it it wasn't uh, you know, uh I had this huge desire to be an attorney or a litigator.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was actually looking at advancing my career and looking at elevating in other career paths, and I was learning that I needed the educational background, right?
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I go, okay, well, I gotta get master's degree or some type of higher education.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: And quite honestly, I was like, well, I can get a law degree and learn to think analytically, and I don't need to do math.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: So let's do that, right?
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so I I jumped in and I I did the LSATs and got accepted into law school, and um, I partially went to law school on the Volk Rehab program, which is available for uh veterans with disabilities, and then I got a scholarship to cover the rest of that.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I I went to law school for free, which was great.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um and when I was in law school, I started litigating.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: I I went and worked at a couple of the county attorney's offices, and one of the very first things I got actually was handling uh permit carry denials.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I was arguing on behalf of the sheriff to say, no, you shouldn't get a permit to carry, which was difficult for me at first, right?
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm like, wait a second, I believe that everybody should be able to carry.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then I learned quickly that maybe that maybe that's not always true.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because I would look at some of these cases and I'm like, all right, I don't think you should carry a gun.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and if I think that, then it's probably it's probably a good idea that you don't carry a gun anymore, you know?
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: And um some of the realities of that, um I it just opened my eyes, right?
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: And and changed a perspective again.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then I um I litigated um in front of the Court of Appeals and a couple other things on like criminal matters, and I really liked litigating.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: But at that time, these were small cases, right?
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I was just reading, doing research, and then arguing, and it was fun.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I get out of law school and I get a job at a private law firm, a very small law firm, 10 attorneys, and they did the bulk of the civil litigation in our state.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a a very active case.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: I show up and start my job, and one of the managing partners drops like 20 cases on my desk and says, All right, get to work.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: These are your cases, right?
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you you're expected to just run with it.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then before you know it, you find yourself reading through like 3,000 emails to look for something, and you're reading, you know, banker boxes full of medical records.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: And kind of back to what we were talking about before, it's not all sexy, right?
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's lots of work, lots of hours.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I got into it, you know, and at this stage in life, I'm I'm older, right?
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not an 18-year-old, 19-year-old kid anymore.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just like, this is this is a young man's game.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's not for me.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't wanna I don't wanna be an associate for 10 years and work, you know, 100 hours a week and not know who my kids are.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I decided to shift out of private practice and go into work uh for the VA, actually.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I started there and uh I like that because I instantly saw reward on a daily basis, right?
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: I was helping veterans to get what they needed, um, work through things.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then I'm so that was still in a legal capacity for the VA?
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so when I started there, I actually was the compliance officer.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: So um I I helped get Marines procedures or helped them walk through the benefits, and I would look at, you know, providers and employees and say, all right, what you're doing is harming veterans, we're gonna fix this.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um instant feedback.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then I transitioned back into legal there and became an employment law attorney at the VA, which was just crazy.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you see all kinds of different things, right?
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: And um, but again, you learn how to deal with people and you learn how to discuss with employees on how to prevent issues in advance, right?
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: So if you take a proactive approach and you work with the employees and the supervisors on how to stop the employee that's you know gonna create an issue and how to properly document and do the work again.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's not sexy, it's not great.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: When you become a supervisor, you don't think about having to write people up and communicate with them and expectations and performance appraisals and all of the things that go into it.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I said the alternative is you end up in litigation and then you're dealing with me and you're standing in a courtroom arguing why what you did was justified.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's a lot better to not have to make those arguments um and just do the hard work in the front end and prevent that from happening.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, one of the things my wife's dealing with, because she recently got promoted and she's now directing and has a team of people and it was reluctant promotion.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_02: She was uh reasonably happy doing what she was, but she did what she did very well.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so senior leadership is like, we need someone like that on our team to help us, you know, with all the things that she's doing.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then she ended up, you know, getting this promotion and is now dealing with people.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: And most of the people she deals with are amazing.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: But the few bad apples and personality conflicts and things have resulted in her spending a good deal of her energy, both you know, in a professional sense, but also emotionally, dealing with that was bl is bloody exhausting.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_02: She comes out of the office most days looking like she's gone ten rounds, you know, boxing or something.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_02: She's just worn out.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: She's like, that's the hardest part is dealing with the people and managing their emotions and problems, and you know, writing up and doing reports on them and doing performance reviews.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: All of this stuff that I hear about in the evenings when we do our evening over a glass of wine debrief, it's just like, okay, right, yeah, I get it.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd sit and you know, lend a patient ear to the people issue that she deals with or the people's issues that she deals with.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: And you see that a lot with people who work hard and are good performers, right?
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: And they elevate and they often find themselves pushed into a leadership role.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: And what you have to do is you have to learn to adapt very quickly in the fact that the skills that got you there are not going to keep you there, right?
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to again assess the situation, look at what's around you and what you need to achieve where you are.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because, like you said, it if you're in sales and you're rocking sales and you're you know you're getting out there and you're increasing your sales, they're like, all right, this guy's great, let's put him in a leadership role.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, now you've totally shifted.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: It no longer matters how well you sell things because you're not the salesman, you are the leader of the sales team.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: So now you have to learn how to um motivate those salespeople that are below you, right?
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: And deal with those issues.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: And now you have to communicate upwards to executive staff and that, and you have to communicate why we need certain things, and you have to start worrying about budget and all the things that you didn't have to worry about that got you there, and you're like, well, hey, they said it was great, so they gave me this job, but yeah, then none of it has anything to do with what I was great at.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_02: So now you you saw a gap in the market for what you're doing now and moved on it, right?
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_02: This is probably one of the things that I I try to tell people you know time and time again.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_02: If you're looking for somebody who's motivated, that is going to see a problem or a gap in a thing, and then move to change it.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_02: Look for a veteran.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_02: Look for someone that's been in the military that has that entrepreneurial spirit that's going to recognize a shortfall and then or a problem and then just move in and try and solve it.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like they'll figure it out.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_02: And you've done exactly that with your new business venture.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: So tell us about that.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: So Precision Shooting Center we created is a completely simulated indoor shooting range.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so we have bays that are set up like a live fire range, except they're wider and deeper, right?
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: So they're seven to ten feet wide and 15 feet deep.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: And we also have private uh suite rooms.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sitting in one right now that's you know 15 feet wide by 25 feet deep, and there's no live ammunition, no live firearms in here.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're heavily based on laser ammo products.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: We have recoil firearms, we have laser-only firearms, um, we utilize the CQB target system.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: We have a 1800 square foot shoot house that has modular walls that we can move around and create new environments.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, everything is based on the smokeless range system uh and allows us to train in real-world scenarios and work on people's situational awareness and that type of thing.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: And what brought me to that was as we were kind of talking about before, a lot of friends would come up to me and say, hey, I'm gonna get a carry permit, and you know, I want it for this to protect my family or to protect my house.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: And they buy a gun and then they're like, I've never been to a live fire range.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not comfortable going to live fire range.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to look stupid.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to get yelled at by some old veteran with a gun on, and you know, it's some grumpy range, master.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, to us, that's just the environment, right?
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: We go in and we're comfortable and we're fine, and you you know, we give a nod to that guy and we go down rounds down range and and hit paper.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: But what I learned is a lot of people aren't comfortable in that environment.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: And or they're okay with that, they shoot it, and then the gun goes in a lockbox and they never shoot again.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, that for whatever reason, that could be cost, they're not comfortable.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um wife doesn't like to go and the free time they have, they want to shoot.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: So what we've created here is a welcoming environment for everyone.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: You can bring your five-year-old son in to teach him how to shoot or hunt.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you can bring your wife in and have a date night, right?
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have to wear eyes and ears.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: So the you can have a conversation while you're training.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: You it it makes it easier to instruct people who are new, right?
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: And we can implement different tools to work on all of the fundamentals, you know, stance, grip, site alignment, all of those things in one safe, welcoming environment for people of all skill sets.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: And what we're finding is shooters who want to improve their training and have people that are looking at it from more of an entertainment aspect, like let's say their wife wants to come with, but doesn't want to train.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: But we have different modules for everyone, right?
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you can compete and you can train, and that competitive nature brings people in that shoot in in a regular environment, right?
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_01: But here they can come in in a welcoming environment where they don't have to be a proficient shooter and they can have fun and enjoy it.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: But they're building skill sets as they do that, right?
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and a lot of them then come up to us and say, Hey, I'd like a private session or a small group session.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: Can I bring my kids in and will you help me with stance and foundation skills?
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think it's great.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_01: And we're seeing it bringing the laser ammo technology to groups of people that would never invest in simulated shooting.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_01: Most of the people that come in our door don't even know the technology exists.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so when they come in, they're like, I've seen you online or I've heard this, but I didn't really know what it was.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_01: This is great.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and you know, so we do a lot of tours through the space just to show people uh what everything is and what we can offer to them.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_02: Anyone who has been to an indoor range and tried to get their significant other to go with them, if if you manage to talk them into going with you when you're standing in that very cramped lane, live fire, and somebody in the next lane is sending 300 Wind Mag down, that person's not coming back to shoot with you again, right?
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_02: You have killed the potential.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so utilizing a facility like yours where the noise is comparatively minimal, there is elbow room, no eyes, no ears needed, and yet it's still utilizing firearms and all the fundamentals of shooting well in an environment that's supportive and promotes enjoyment rather than you know that constant flinch and startle response you get with new shooters who somebody's blasting in the next lane.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely priceless.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_02: It really is a great thing to do.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_02: Now, have you seen quite a lot of first-time shooters coming through as they find out about you?
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: We we have.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we get a lot of first-time shooters in the door.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh our our biggest thing we've seen is couples, like you had just said, right?
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: The husband wants to go shoot, but he wants to spend time with his wife on a weekend or a night off that they have, and she doesn't want to go to the range for that same thing, right?
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: They were there and someone's shooting off a 50 cal hand cannon right next to him, and she's like, I'm done with this.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, you know, or my wife, she doesn't like wearing the earmuffs and the glasses, it's uncomfortable, right?
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_01: And she's not comfortable.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: She'll go to the range with me, but she would never go by herself, right?
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: We'll sit over here and do Ipsick or tactical targets for hours just competing against each other, and she has a blast doing that.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we get a lot of that, and we get people who want to bring their kids in in the area that I'm at.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of the indoor ranges won't let you bring a kid in until they're, you know, 13, 14 years old.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, some 10 here, if you've got a five, six, eight-year-old who can carry a gun safely and shoot, they're they're welcome to participate and we can start working on those skill sets early on, which is great.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that's another kind of market of people that we see that there's a desire to train.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of these, you know, I have a lot of veteran friends who have young kids and they want them shooting now, right?
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: They're and they want to shoot.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but finding the place, unless you're fortunate enough to be on land where you can shoot your own, or you have an outdoor gun club nearby, which in our metropolitan area, we don't, right?
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_01: We're in a we're in a a city area um with no outdoor gun ranges nearby.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_01: So the only alternative for those individuals is to come here or to train, you know, drive hours away or or train at their home with the systems.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, we we see a lot of that.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we're also seeing avid shooters who you know enjoy the fact that they can draw from a holster and they can move.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it you know, where we're at, it gets 20, 30 below in the winter time.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um and nobody else.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can shoot outside.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: You can shoot outside, but unless you're in the military and they're making you, you don't want to, right?
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_02: There's nothing worse than trying to do a bag change with hands that are completely frozen.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_02: You're like, hold on a minute, this is just not working.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_01: So we get a lot of guys that are saying, you know, this will be great in the wintertime.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_01: We can come in and we can train, and you know, the competitive shooter pro, they can build a course of fire that they want to shoot, and they can run new competitive shooters through that course before they actually build it.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so there's a lot of the technology that we see as spanning a wide array of people.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: We're just we're getting a lot of traffic and a lot of discussion about how this would involve people that would otherwise never get into shooting sports.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, exactly.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's too difficult to take kids.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_02: We had uh a kid come up to shoot at one of our conferences, probably six or seven.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, the cute little uh thing with a ponytail, she's she's like, Can I shoot?
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, Well, have you shot before?
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_02: She said, a little bit.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_02: I said, Well, what's the most important thing when you're shooting a handgun?
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_02: And she listed off all of the bloody safety things first.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_02: I looked at mom and dad behind them like, seriously?
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_02: They're like, We have this system.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, I could, I thought I could hear angels singing somewhere in the background.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, what a brilliant tool to help them introduce and have the entire family shoot.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_02: But first and foremost, teach them about firearms and firearm safety and responsibility.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_02: And she shot brilliantly.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, she was six or seven.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not very good with kids' ages as mine have now, you know, left home and they're in their 20s.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: But she was young enough that I was like, I don't know if she can even hold the gun.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_02: Show she did.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_02: And she never pointed it at anybody.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_02: It was she was safe the whole time.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_02: The recoil on the gun, you know, running the green gas didn't bother her in the least.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_02: And she was hitting everything she was aiming at.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, this is bloody fantastic.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's just such an easy, safe way to get the entire family involved with and knowledgeable about firearms, which I think is you know, just one of those industry things that we should be pushing more of.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and and we get a lot of people that ask us, does this correlate to real improvement with a real firearm?
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the kind of the test models we did before we created Precision Shooting Center was we got a group of people together of all ages and all walks of life.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_01: Some had shot many times and some had never picked up a gun.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_01: And we set up smokeless range at our club, and we had everybody come in, and you could tell some of the guys, they didn't want to say it, but they hadn't carried a gun before, right?
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_01: As soon as they pick it up, you can tell right there.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so we we turn on the simulator and we start with just shooting at paper targets, and they're all over the board, right?
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_01: They're missing the target, they're they're not tight groups, and we go through the fundamentals of working on the stance and the site alignment and how to obtain the target.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_01: And we get them shooting dead center paper within 15 minutes, right?
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_01: A group of people, and then we went to a live fire range nearby, and we qualified those individuals for permit to carry, and all of them hit paper instantly and had no issues at the range.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_01: And they all said it was so great to be in an environment where I didn't have to worry about technology, other people.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_01: I I was in a safe environment, and they were able to build that confidence and learn the the basic skills before they went to the live fire range.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_02: We and this we is actually the royal we, because this is actually one of Pat.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_02: He works at Laser Ammo as one of the law enforcement guys, and he's very knowledgeable, great guy, very funny.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_02: He's an acquired taste as far as his sense of humor goes, but I get it.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_02: But he had uh law enforcement officer reach out to him to say that he had struggled because the training they get for firearms is minimal for this particular department, had struggled with his qualification chute, and he had bought himself smokeless range along with a couple of recall guns and was using them.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, he also had a dry-fire mag.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_02: So he had dry-fire mag, a laser, and he was dry firing his own pistol at the target.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_02: For the first time, actually, this would have been last year, now the end of last year, he went to his qualification chute and shot the perfect score because he could program smokeless range to give him the exact um challenge and shoot uh course of fire for that qualification shoot.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_02: He did perfectly.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it I personally I love the fact that families are doing it.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_02: I love that competitive shooters can do it.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_02: I love even more that law enforcement can get the trigger time that they need to improve and be ready, should they ever be required to pull their firearm.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that little nugget coming from that one officer who was kind enough to email us and say, I got a perfect score for the first time in my career, was an absolute gift.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and we've had we've had multiple law enforcement individuals come through our facility when we were doing our soft open.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_01: We we welcomed anybody and everyone who wanted to come in.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_01: And we actually put a few on tactical targets with the shoot-no-shoot and the randomized shooting of one, two, or three per target.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_01: And we had a few officers shoot friendly targets, and some of them admittedly told us after the fact we don't get this kind of training.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_01: Our our department doesn't have the budget or you know, the ability to provide this to us.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_01: And we talked to some other officers who are like, we have a shoot house, but it's the same shoot house every single time.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_01: Our configuration that we have, the walls weigh about 20 pounds, they lock together like Legos, and we can set up a new configuration in the same day.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_01: It takes us, you know, 20, 30 minutes, and we can reset up the house, and we set it up differently every month so people that are coming in regularly aren't seeing the same thing because you learn to just run through a pattern and you're not really training awareness and you're not pushing yourself, right?
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_01: Now, with ours, we can have you run through it, we can reconfigure it and have your team run through it again in a totally different configuration.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_01: And now you have to think all right, here's a doorway, here's a window, here's a hallway, what's behind it?
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you just run through it, all you're doing is you're patterning yourself, right?
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_01: And you're learning, okay, this time I'm gonna turn at that door, or I'm gonna hit this window first, or I'm gonna catch that target that I missed, the last run through, right?
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so our goal is to eliminate that and make everything as close to a real world situation as we can.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_01: And between, you know, video scenario trainer, uh, tactical targets, the IpsIC courses, the shoot house, and the the CQB targets in a box, we can set those up and the programming is great.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_01: We can make it a a shoot target, a no-shoot target, the number of shots, and we can reconfigure that every run if we want to.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it takes a matter of seconds to do that.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it's great.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well I'm just going to do a shameless plug here for a previous episode and interview I did with Tim Heron, who's a gold medalist at Ipsex shooting.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like this guy's phenomenal.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, just as you now alluded to it is the choreography of shooting that is probably most detrimental to our actual ability to shoot in a manner that is we we know we're going to have to improvise.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_02: If a threat presents, it's never going to be on the day you choose, where you choose, how you choose.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_02: Everything's up in the air, right?
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_02: The bad guy gets to make that selection, you're reactive.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_02: You're already behind the power curve.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_02: And he said that choreographed shooting where we're following a pattern feels good because now we're dialed in.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_02: But the reality is we're not necessarily improving those shooting skills and especially for law enforcement or defensive shooting, you need to break away from the choreography and get dialed in on the fundamentals of accurately shooting when you have to adapt to what's going on around you.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_02: And he said it beautifully you've reiterated and enforced it.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's probably one of the most important elements is you need the practice absolutely more trigger time usually the better.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_02: But it's what type of trigger time are you just following a pattern that allows you to make yourself feel good before you leave when the reality is you haven't necessarily improved your overall overall adaptability under stress to a shooting challenge.
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_02: And we can use the smokeless range and all the equipment and a facility like yours obviously is a dream come true to challenge how people approach shooting in general from competitive to tactical.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_02: So how and what what is the process you'd like people to reach out and contact you and explore your facility if they're if they're in your area or even want to come in from out of town to visit?
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah so the first place is I'd say visit our website at Precision ShootingCenter dot com or our Facebook or any other social media account Precision Shooting Center if you check us out on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, um we're there you can certainly come check us out.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_01: You can also uh drop me an email Brian at Precision Shootingcenter.com and that's Brian with an eye or you can give us a call and uh phone number and all our information is on the website and we'd love to see you.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: You're welcome to come on in you know if you if you saw this let me know and come on in and we'll get you a deal and we'll get you a tour of the space and show you what it's all about.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's fantastic.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_02: It has been a brilliant chat with you mate.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so glad we managed to grab a time and fit this in I know you're running a new business time is of the essence.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for sitting down having this chat and thank you for sharing your experiences.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's been great.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you Terry it's been great as well.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you to everyone who's tuned in for this episode don't forget to hit the like button and subscribe it helps push us out with the algorithm and get us out in front of more shooters.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_02: It does help support the channel and we appreciate it more than you can know.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_02: For now that's the end of today's episode thanks for tuning in and we'll see you again in the next one.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_02: Cheers