Latest / The DEX Show: A Show for IT Change Makers / Future Solving with Brian Evergreen (Or: How to Escape those AI Career Jitters)

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Future Solving with Brian Evergreen (Or: How to Escape those AI Career Jitters) · The DEX Show: A Show for IT Change Makers

0:02
Speaker 1: Hey, it change makers and welcome to the Deck Show
0:05
Speaker 1: with Tom McGrath. Let's get into it. Welcome back to
0:11
Speaker 1: the Deck Show. I'm Tom McGrath speaking to you from
0:15
Speaker 1: a very very warm London, which is quite a rare occasion.
0:19
Speaker 1: But a less rare occasion is that we have another
0:22
Speaker 1: fantastic guest.
0:24
Speaker 2: For everybody today.
0:25
Speaker 1: He is I genuinely think it's one of the most
0:27
Speaker 1: original thinkers, kind of working in that intersection of AI,
0:31
Speaker 1: of organizational philosophy and more broadly the future of work.
0:36
Speaker 1: He's Brian Evergreen. We're absolutely delighted he's come on. Welcome
0:39
Speaker 1: to the show, Brian, how are you doing?
0:41
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.
0:44
Speaker 1: For anybody who doesn't already know your work, which is broad, expansive,
0:48
Speaker 1: hard to define in it in a sentence or two.
0:50
Speaker 1: I'm sure you're better at it, and I am. Feel
0:52
Speaker 1: free to say something about it and give us an
0:54
Speaker 1: overview of what you do.
0:57
Speaker 3: To be honest, I'm still working on it myself, so
0:59
Speaker 3: I would say the sentence or two. So I help
1:04
Speaker 3: leaders position themselves for the future. I help them take
1:08
Speaker 3: the future into their own hands and create value with it.
1:11
Speaker 3: That's the as succinct as I can get, And lately
1:16
Speaker 3: I've been trying to help up and coming leaders because
1:18
Speaker 3: so much of my work for so many years has
1:20
Speaker 3: been VP plus and so while I continue to do
1:23
Speaker 3: that work, I've been adding in some resources to help
1:27
Speaker 3: folks that want to become VP plus leaders and want
1:30
Speaker 3: to create impact.
1:31
Speaker 1: They when they do phenomenal and in fact, listeners might
1:36
Speaker 1: not actually know Beau. I was talking to our producer
1:38
Speaker 1: Ella earlier this week, Brian about the fact that we
1:41
Speaker 1: have a kind of a sister show on YouTube called
1:43
Speaker 1: Soul of the Cio. If this is news to you,
1:46
Speaker 1: but we we've never plugged it roughly here on the
1:49
Speaker 1: Deck show. So what is the point of having a
1:51
Speaker 1: sister show if you don't use a brother show or
1:53
Speaker 1: what not to plug it. So we're plugging it here now,
1:56
Speaker 1: a Soul of the ciof you if you tap that
1:58
Speaker 1: into YouTube, give us a subscribe, give us a like.
2:01
Speaker 2: We we'd appreciate it.
2:02
Speaker 1: But you will find there a wonderful recent interview with
2:07
Speaker 1: Cassie Kuzakov, who was Google's first chief decision scientist, and
2:15
Speaker 1: she's absolutely fascinating and really ridiculously smart, and as we
2:21
Speaker 1: realized earlier this week. It is a sometimes collaborator and
2:24
Speaker 1: colleague of yourself, Brian.
2:26
Speaker 3: That's correct. Yeah, we did a course together. We created
2:29
Speaker 3: a course called a gentic Ai for Leaders that we
2:33
Speaker 3: offered on Maven for almost a year and then and
2:36
Speaker 3: then we paused it for now. But we're we're cooking
2:40
Speaker 3: up some other things. So yeah, she's she's fantastic to
2:43
Speaker 3: work with, and there's this nice overlap in our thinking
2:46
Speaker 3: and our work without it being it's not repetitive, right,
2:50
Speaker 3: We we sort of add to each other's work, which
2:52
Speaker 3: has been really fun.
2:54
Speaker 1: Excellent, excellent. Then you, you know, as anyone, as everyone
2:57
Speaker 1: will quickly realize that Brian, you are. You're ridiculous smart yourself,
3:01
Speaker 1: and we're going to get into your ideas momentarily before
3:03
Speaker 1: we do. It was interesting to look into your background
3:05
Speaker 1: and see if you actually started out studying music, right,
3:09
Speaker 1: that was your as they say in the States, that
3:11
Speaker 1: was your major. Yes, yeah, before that, majored in music
3:16
Speaker 1: is what I mean to say.
3:17
Speaker 3: I did. I did major in music. Yeah, before that,
3:20
Speaker 3: I was a chess player. That's where I always say
3:22
Speaker 3: my origin story starts, was representing the US versus other
3:25
Speaker 3: countries and chess. But yeah, in school I studied. I
3:28
Speaker 3: actually started out as a double major in music and business,
3:30
Speaker 3: and then because my brother and I are building an
3:33
Speaker 3: education company teaching kids chess, I decided to drop the
3:37
Speaker 3: business major and just let school be something that I enjoyed,
3:42
Speaker 3: you know, as a as sort of a release from
3:45
Speaker 3: all the work that I was doing building a business
3:47
Speaker 3: in the off hours. And so I studied music theory
3:50
Speaker 3: and composition and had the chance to study abroad in Germany,
3:53
Speaker 3: and and yeah, it was a wonderful season. And I
3:56
Speaker 3: think that one of the biggest takeaways from that that's
3:59
Speaker 3: applied to my work life his systems thinking, and that's
4:02
Speaker 3: been really interesting to see how that's sort of played
4:05
Speaker 3: out since then.
4:06
Speaker 1: But as anybody who approaches your work, Brian is it
4:10
Speaker 1: is a big picture vision. It's I think with a
4:13
Speaker 1: lot of sort of strategic thinkers. It can feel a
4:17
Speaker 1: little bit like just being responsive to whatever is for
4:19
Speaker 1: current buzzword, whatever is the current preoccupation, whereas your stuff
4:23
Speaker 1: does feel very like theoretically rooted, I would say, and
4:28
Speaker 1: from my reading it kind of all flows out, but
4:30
Speaker 1: also an interesting way it is kind of diverges from
4:33
Speaker 1: Frederick Taylor's observation, perhaps more broadly his work about the
4:38
Speaker 1: future being systems first, and maybe set the scene for
4:43
Speaker 1: your own thinking by saying a word about Taylor's work
4:45
Speaker 1: and its impact or influencer otherwise on how you analyze
4:50
Speaker 1: our recent past, and maybe we'll say something about what
4:53
Speaker 1: he was. He was early twentieth century, right, I mean
4:55
Speaker 1: it was yes, Yes, he was.
4:57
Speaker 3: The first management thinker or you know management assault andt
5:01
Speaker 3: he he was. In nineteen eleven he published the book
5:06
Speaker 3: Principles of Scientific Management, and in there he said, because
5:10
Speaker 3: before that we didn't have we didn't have process, right,
5:13
Speaker 3: so you could buy the same thing from the same
5:15
Speaker 3: company and you'd get to there'd be variances in them
5:18
Speaker 3: even though it was manufactured by the same company. So
5:22
Speaker 3: he really invented the idea of process, like you know,
5:26
Speaker 3: mapping your process, mapping process improvement, the underpinnings of like
5:31
Speaker 3: lean six sigma type of thinking and eliminating waste and so.
5:36
Speaker 3: And they would stand with with stopwatches and they would
5:39
Speaker 3: watch different people do those same jobs, and they would
5:42
Speaker 3: pull the parts that were efficient, that were great redesigned.
5:45
Speaker 3: This is what the ideal process should look like. And
5:47
Speaker 3: they'd come back and teach everyone how to do it.
5:49
Speaker 3: And he worked with Ford a lot of the leading
5:51
Speaker 3: companies at the time, And.
5:52
Speaker 1: So I was going to I was going to say,
5:53
Speaker 1: surely there's a Henry full time there, right, just ye,
5:56
Speaker 1: same time exactly.
5:57
Speaker 3: No, literally, yeah, I think Henry Ford was one of
5:59
Speaker 3: his biggest proponents, right that supported and helped him land
6:05
Speaker 3: impact with his work that then made it catch on
6:08
Speaker 3: for others. So so yeah, in terms of how he's
6:12
Speaker 3: influenced my thinking, what I would say is that when
6:14
Speaker 3: I was working at Microsoft as a USAI strategy lead
6:18
Speaker 3: and I was helping C suite teams develop their AI strategies,
6:21
Speaker 3: and I kept feeling like the way they were going
6:24
Speaker 3: about this one it isn't working. But two we keep
6:28
Speaker 3: repeating the same things like every com and it's still today.
6:31
Speaker 3: Every conference you go to, people say, start with what
6:33
Speaker 3: problem you want to solve, or you know, let's start
6:36
Speaker 3: with some low hanging fruit that's really important and be
6:39
Speaker 3: data driven is you know, we've been parroting these things
6:42
Speaker 3: for a long time, and I thought, okay, I kept
6:46
Speaker 3: seeing the data the results. Actually, ironically, you know, calling
6:51
Speaker 3: of being data driven was that it wasn't working, and
6:53
Speaker 3: so I decided to go back. I thought, Okay, I
6:56
Speaker 3: want to figure out where does this Where do these ideas.
6:58
Speaker 2: Come from, and.
7:00
Speaker 3: How are they so pervasive, how are they helping us,
7:02
Speaker 3: how are they hurting us? And what would we need
7:04
Speaker 3: to think differently for.
7:06
Speaker 2: Us to be more successful.
7:08
Speaker 3: And so one of those inquiries led me back to
7:11
Speaker 3: Frederick Taylor saying, notably, he said, in the past, the
7:15
Speaker 3: man has been first. In the future, the system must
7:19
Speaker 3: be first, and I wrote in Autonomous Transformation in the past,
7:24
Speaker 3: the system has been first because he succeeded, right, the
7:26
Speaker 3: system is first. We talk about organizations like large machines
7:30
Speaker 3: these days and humans being sort of an element inside
7:33
Speaker 3: the machine, and so I wrote a you know, one
7:36
Speaker 3: hundred years later response, in the past, the system has
7:41
Speaker 3: been first. In the future, the human must be first
7:44
Speaker 3: because leading an organization like it's a mechanical system worked
7:48
Speaker 3: really well in the twentieth century, but it doesn't work
7:52
Speaker 3: as well today because people have mobility that they didn't
7:56
Speaker 3: used to have. So treating them like their cogs in
7:58
Speaker 3: a system worked when this is the one company that
8:02
Speaker 3: has this kind of job, where they live, where their
8:04
Speaker 3: family is so they just have to kind of stick
8:06
Speaker 3: it out and make it work. But now that people
8:10
Speaker 3: can can do and not do anything, but do so
8:12
Speaker 3: much more and get so many more jobs and learn
8:14
Speaker 3: so many more skills. Human centered leadership, leading people as humans,
8:20
Speaker 3: leading an organization as not only physical assets digital assets,
8:25
Speaker 3: but also a layer of relationships is actually, I wrot, counterintuitively,
8:32
Speaker 3: the only way you're going to have a successful AI
8:34
Speaker 3: or any other complex initiative.
8:38
Speaker 1: I don't know where to go exactly, but I would
8:40
Speaker 1: know I want to pick up on something that you mentioned.
8:43
Speaker 1: Going to conferences and you hear the same old thing,
8:46
Speaker 1: And if you've been out of conferences for decades, you've
8:48
Speaker 1: probably been here of the same old thing for decades,
8:49
Speaker 1: for one hundred years, perhaps specifically. But so what would
8:56
Speaker 1: you prefer to hear at a conference? Right? What what
9:00
Speaker 1: should be the new cliches or the yet to be
9:02
Speaker 1: articulated cliches refocus how we think about organizations?
9:07
Speaker 2: And great question.
9:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, So what I would say is solving a problem
9:13
Speaker 3: is eliminating something you don't want.
9:15
Speaker 2: So it's a craft of.
9:16
Speaker 3: Getting rid of something right, But it doesn't get you.
9:20
Speaker 3: That doesn't getting rid of something doesn't get you something,
9:23
Speaker 3: it only eliminates, right.
9:25
Speaker 2: So what I would love to see as a cliche.
9:27
Speaker 3: Going forward is start with vision or start with the
9:31
Speaker 3: value that you want to create. And I know there's
9:33
Speaker 3: there's definitely some people that are sharing this, right, So
9:36
Speaker 3: it's not everywhere that everyone always focuses on problems, but
9:40
Speaker 3: it's so pervasive that even when I was first googling
9:42
Speaker 3: or asking, when chat chippyt came out and I said,
9:44
Speaker 3: what is future solving right?
9:46
Speaker 2: And or what are the top things I should do?
9:48
Speaker 3: And it would say even when trying to define future solving,
9:50
Speaker 3: it would say, future solving is anticipating problems that might
9:54
Speaker 3: come and solving them in advance, which is absolutely not
9:57
Speaker 3: even close to what I define is solving. So I
10:00
Speaker 3: always say a cliche that I'd love to see. If
10:02
Speaker 3: I had to try to be pithy and give you three,
10:04
Speaker 3: I'd say one would be start with what value you
10:08
Speaker 3: want to create based on the core competencies that you
10:11
Speaker 3: as an organization, based on the expertise, right and assets
10:14
Speaker 3: and the core competencies that you have.
10:17
Speaker 2: That's where you should start.
10:19
Speaker 3: Is there's a total addressable value that you could be
10:22
Speaker 3: creating in the mark there's an amount that you are
10:23
Speaker 3: if you're in business, you're creating some kind of value
10:25
Speaker 3: that people are willing to pay you for. Congratulations, you're
10:28
Speaker 3: in business, right, But there's more you could theoretically create
10:32
Speaker 3: that would be adjacent to what you're already creating. So
10:35
Speaker 3: start with asking, when you have a new tool, you
10:38
Speaker 3: have a new form factor, how could we do the
10:41
Speaker 3: thing that we do as good or better in a
10:44
Speaker 3: way that benefits and creates new value for our customers
10:47
Speaker 3: instead of how do we do the same thing we've
10:50
Speaker 3: already been doing, but cheaper, faster, or more efficiently. So
10:54
Speaker 3: a great example, of course is Netflix, where they didn't
10:56
Speaker 3: say how do we mail DVDs faster? How do we
11:00
Speaker 3: how do we you know, mail DVDs cheaper? They said, oh,
11:05
Speaker 3: with streaming, we could, we could introduce it, and we
11:08
Speaker 3: could solve our same mission as a company of people
11:11
Speaker 3: accessing entertainment everywhere, but now in a completely different way
11:15
Speaker 3: because there's.
11:16
Speaker 2: New form factors available. Right.
11:18
Speaker 3: So, but if you go to if you were to
11:20
Speaker 3: jump into a you know, a meeting of leaders today
11:23
Speaker 3: talking about where and how to apply AI there, in
11:26
Speaker 3: most cases you'll see them saying okay, but I think
11:29
Speaker 3: the things that we're doing now, the list all the
11:31
Speaker 3: things they're doing, all the problems with the things they're doing,
11:33
Speaker 3: and look at how do we take the same value
11:35
Speaker 3: we're already creating and do it better, cheaper or faster
11:39
Speaker 3: and missing the bigger, much bigger opportunity, which is, how
11:43
Speaker 3: do we fulfill our core mission to our customers in
11:46
Speaker 3: new ways that might offer entirely new growth categories that
11:51
Speaker 3: we that we couldn't do a decade ago.
11:54
Speaker 2: So that's the first.
11:54
Speaker 3: One I guess if I were narrowing it down and
11:57
Speaker 3: be start with what value you want to create?
12:00
Speaker 2: And then the second thing I.
12:01
Speaker 3: Would say is that one of the big the biggest
12:04
Speaker 3: things I'm focused on right now is helping people.
12:06
Speaker 2: Create visible strategies.
12:08
Speaker 3: So most strategies today are completely invisible, where it's in
12:13
Speaker 3: multiple layers of abstraction inside of someone's head, inside of
12:16
Speaker 3: PowerPoint files, word docs, it's you know, mirro boards.
12:20
Speaker 2: Et cetera.
12:21
Speaker 3: In the same way that as a chess player would
12:23
Speaker 3: be able to see if I do this, then they
12:24
Speaker 3: might do that, and if I do that, they might
12:26
Speaker 3: do that. And you're stacking decision trees. You could create
12:29
Speaker 3: a decision tree working backwards from the future you want
12:32
Speaker 3: to create. So you have that value you want to create,
12:35
Speaker 3: and you say what would have to be true for
12:36
Speaker 3: us to create this value, and you document that things,
12:39
Speaker 3: all the things would have to be true on one
12:41
Speaker 3: single page. Say hey, look, this is a future we
12:44
Speaker 3: want to create. This is where we are today. These
12:45
Speaker 3: are all the things that would have to be true.
12:48
Speaker 3: Now our strategy is visible, we could decide if that's
12:51
Speaker 3: something we want now that we see all the nones
12:53
Speaker 3: and unknowns and things that would have to be true.
12:55
Speaker 3: Is that something we still want to do. Do we
12:56
Speaker 3: have the resources to go about that? Is it worth it?
12:59
Speaker 3: But at least we're talking about it in open plane terms,
13:02
Speaker 3: where today most strategy exercises are let's do some swat
13:06
Speaker 3: analyzes and like set the context. It's like defining what
13:10
Speaker 3: the pieces are are on the board and how they
13:12
Speaker 3: move and where they're all situated, and then we'll share
13:15
Speaker 3: our three point plan of what it is we're going
13:17
Speaker 3: to you know, the next three investments we're going to make,
13:19
Speaker 3: which is strategy, context, no strategy, and then a plan.
13:24
Speaker 3: The strategies are not from here to there, so that'd
13:26
Speaker 3: be the second thing is just if people were created,
13:29
Speaker 3: you know, going to be if I could push a
13:30
Speaker 3: button and they'd be saying things. They'd say, start with
13:32
Speaker 3: what value want to create? Create a visible strategy from
13:36
Speaker 3: here to there.
13:39
Speaker 2: And then the third one would be lead.
13:43
Speaker 3: Well, there's like five that are in my head at
13:45
Speaker 3: the same time, but I guess I'll say this one,
13:47
Speaker 3: which is that lead your organization as not only like
13:53
Speaker 3: I said before, the physical layer, the digital layer, and
13:56
Speaker 3: then the relational layer. So master relational leaderhip would be
14:01
Speaker 3: the thing that I would say is number three, because
14:03
Speaker 3: I think in most cases we sort of see relationships
14:07
Speaker 3: as sort of a bonus on top of the organization,
14:11
Speaker 3: when it's actually the heart of Like when you look
14:14
Speaker 3: at JPL getting the Mars mission, you know, so succeeding
14:19
Speaker 3: at that, or you look at these moments in history
14:21
Speaker 3: where truly incredible things happened. It wasn't just smart people.
14:25
Speaker 2: Or good systems. There was this this.
14:28
Speaker 3: Energy, this relational context that was like magic.
14:35
Speaker 1: Out of interest. To what extent do you think organizations
14:39
Speaker 1: have been taking these fundamental approaches regardless of the received
14:44
Speaker 1: wisdom of the system's approach, Like do you do you
14:48
Speaker 1: look at a lot of organizations who have been hugely
14:50
Speaker 1: successful in the twenty first century. You mentioned Netflix, right,
14:54
Speaker 1: and think, yeah, that they're pursuing this model, whether or
14:57
Speaker 1: not they're doing it consciously, and to what it is
15:00
Speaker 1: it more profound than value.
15:04
Speaker 3: So yeah, they're not calling a future solving when they
15:06
Speaker 3: do that. But that's what I've that's part of the
15:09
Speaker 3: pattern that I saw that I also, you know, we
15:12
Speaker 3: started using back when I was at Microsoft, and then
15:14
Speaker 3: I have since been teaching organizations. So Netflix is a
15:17
Speaker 3: good example. Blockbuster is a good example the opposite, because
15:20
Speaker 3: they actually invented. I met the gentleman who created Blockbuster
15:25
Speaker 3: on Demand And for those who need a quick history refresher,
15:29
Speaker 3: Netflix introduced streaming in two thousand and seven. Blockbuster on
15:33
Speaker 3: Demand was created in nineteen ninety five, and I did
15:37
Speaker 3: not know this. It's not a very broadly shared story
15:39
Speaker 3: about this history. But he had created and there's a
15:43
Speaker 3: reason so he'd created this, piloted it, made a deal
15:47
Speaker 3: with Comcast. Comcast said we'll distribute Blockbuster on demand, and
15:52
Speaker 3: they saw for the universal remote and the pilots were
15:55
Speaker 3: extremely successful. And he came back and he expected this
15:59
Speaker 3: to be a who were making a moment for him.
16:01
Speaker 3: And what ended up happening was that they had just
16:04
Speaker 3: been acquired by who was it, Viacom, and the senior
16:08
Speaker 3: vice president said called him and said you have to
16:11
Speaker 3: kill it. And he said, wait, what, like this is successful.
16:15
Speaker 3: We solved it with the Comcast is ready to go,
16:17
Speaker 3: we have distribution, we have the technical you know, we've
16:21
Speaker 3: solved it.
16:21
Speaker 2: Where it's why would we do that? And they said, well, it.
16:25
Speaker 3: Threatens twelve percent of our revenue, which is late fees.
16:28
Speaker 3: And so that person that year probably put in their
16:33
Speaker 3: annual performance that they protected twelve percent of revenue and
16:36
Speaker 3: they might have gotten a bonus for it.
16:38
Speaker 2: And then, of course, twelve years later, right, we see
16:41
Speaker 2: how it actually worked out in practice.
16:44
Speaker 3: So I would say that's an interesting example because Netflix
16:46
Speaker 3: solved for the same future twice, the future being a
16:49
Speaker 3: future where people could access entertainment everywhere, regardless of their
16:52
Speaker 3: proximity to a Blockbuster or Hollywood video for those who remember,
16:56
Speaker 3: wasn't just Blockbuster, And so that was the future they
16:59
Speaker 3: were solving, right, And so they saw for it two
17:02
Speaker 3: different ways, First by mailing DVDs, than when the technology advanced,
17:05
Speaker 3: then they were able to do streaming and disrupt a
17:08
Speaker 3: whole industry, right.
17:09
Speaker 2: And continue building on that.
17:12
Speaker 3: And so Apple of course is another example where if
17:15
Speaker 3: you look at the data, the data driven decision when
17:18
Speaker 3: he decided to invest in the iPhone based on what
17:21
Speaker 3: had happened with General Magic. General Magic had a lot
17:24
Speaker 3: of the right pieces in place, and if you look
17:27
Speaker 3: at the reports from back in the early two thousands
17:29
Speaker 3: where they talked about the total addressable market for smartphones,
17:33
Speaker 3: the data was very clear, do not invest in smartphones.
17:37
Speaker 3: There's this little BlackBerry market and that's you know, kind
17:41
Speaker 3: of a niche and that's it. And yet despite that,
17:45
Speaker 3: Steve Jobs had a vision that he believed that against
17:50
Speaker 3: the data, he believed I think that this is I
17:52
Speaker 3: think there's something there, and I think it's worth And
17:54
Speaker 3: he did masterful systems thinking and how he approached it
17:58
Speaker 3: and how simple he made it. And also to the
18:01
Speaker 3: idea of being a relational leader. If you had if
18:04
Speaker 3: someone else had introduced the iPhone in a different way,
18:08
Speaker 3: then it would be so fascinating if we had a
18:10
Speaker 3: time machine and could go back and say, let's have
18:12
Speaker 3: this other person who isn't as good as a speaker,
18:14
Speaker 3: who didn't prepare the same way, let's have them lead
18:16
Speaker 3: the iPhone launch and see, you know, see how that
18:19
Speaker 3: would have gone. And the relational and just the storytelling
18:24
Speaker 3: power that he had I think was another huge component
18:26
Speaker 3: of why in the big successful. So those are those
18:29
Speaker 3: are just a couple examples. But if you if you
18:31
Speaker 3: go back even even throughout history, like when you look
18:34
Speaker 3: at doctor Martin Luther King Junior and or you know
18:38
Speaker 3: his I have a dream speech. If you look at great,
18:41
Speaker 3: great moments throughout history. You know when when we went
18:44
Speaker 3: to the moon, it started with a future that people
18:47
Speaker 3: didn't even think was possible, and someone's making a bold
18:51
Speaker 3: declaration and then saying, Okay, we're going to solve for this.
18:56
Speaker 1: A question for you. You mentioned working with with up and
18:59
Speaker 1: coming leaders more and more recently, and they've obviously they
19:05
Speaker 1: will have come of age by and large with the
19:08
Speaker 1: model of all these organizations of future solving organizations being
19:12
Speaker 1: very dominant this century. What's that influence been like on
19:17
Speaker 1: their formation? Do you think from working with and what
19:21
Speaker 1: obstacles are they creating for themselves despite those models or
19:24
Speaker 1: as a consequence of other elements in the environment which
19:27
Speaker 1: are influencing and constructing them.
19:30
Speaker 2: I like that question.
19:31
Speaker 3: I think it's I would say one of the biggest
19:35
Speaker 3: things that they face is, I mean with what happened
19:38
Speaker 3: with COVID after decade, you know, after a decade or
19:41
Speaker 3: so of disconnection societally thanks to smartphones and fractured relationships
19:50
Speaker 3: and a lack.
19:52
Speaker 2: Of social experiences that those of us who.
19:55
Speaker 3: Developed pre smartphones, you know, you go to the dark
20:00
Speaker 3: and you're going to either sit there board, you're going
20:03
Speaker 3: to read one of the magazines about you know, celebrity
20:06
Speaker 3: gossip or whatever, or you're going to look around and
20:08
Speaker 3: talk to people. And that's like a crucial critical social
20:12
Speaker 3: development experience that was I believe that a generation, a
20:15
Speaker 3: couple of generations now have been robbed of not because
20:19
Speaker 3: anyone purposely wanted to rob them of those experiences, but.
20:22
Speaker 2: Just an impact right of what what's taken place.
20:25
Speaker 3: And so what I would say is that there's this
20:27
Speaker 3: hunger for the kinds of social connection that we used
20:31
Speaker 3: to take for granted. And I think that that really
20:34
Speaker 3: but with a maybe just a difference in experiences, social
20:38
Speaker 3: experiences of learning, how do you build trust with people
20:41
Speaker 3: with strangers in a situation where you know there's no
20:46
Speaker 3: there there at this point like, you reached out to
20:48
Speaker 3: me to come on this podcast because you saw me online,
20:51
Speaker 3: But if you met me on.
20:52
Speaker 2: The street, how would we build rapport with each other?
20:55
Speaker 3: If there if I had no idea who you were,
20:57
Speaker 3: I couldn't look you up. You had no idea who
20:58
Speaker 3: I was, and you couldn't look me up. And we're
21:01
Speaker 3: just kind of navigating a social situation between the two
21:03
Speaker 3: of us. So I'd say that the social element, especially
21:07
Speaker 3: when it comes to leadership then, is going to be
21:10
Speaker 3: really fascinating. What I'm excited about is that because of
21:13
Speaker 3: the proliferation of information and the accountability through video, even
21:18
Speaker 3: with what happened recently with Eric Schmidt, right, I think
21:21
Speaker 3: it was a masterclass in how power structures are evolving
21:27
Speaker 3: because they don't care that he used to be the
21:29
Speaker 3: CEO of Google. I don't know if you saw this
21:33
Speaker 3: speech that he commencement speech that he gave at university
21:36
Speaker 3: talking about AI and how it was coming and everybody
21:39
Speaker 3: need to embrace AI while they had just had four
21:41
Speaker 3: years of being told they're not allowed to use AI
21:42
Speaker 3: in school, and so they booed him practically off stage.
21:46
Speaker 3: He stayed on and he stuck it out. He sort
21:49
Speaker 3: of clapped back to them in a way that I
21:52
Speaker 3: was surprised to see. But it's an interesting example of
21:56
Speaker 3: how power structures are shifting because it used to be that,
22:00
Speaker 3: you know, people who were in positions of power were
22:03
Speaker 3: revered because of what they could do for other people.
22:06
Speaker 3: Now people care more about how whether or not you
22:10
Speaker 3: express care, empathy, whether or not you are are someone
22:14
Speaker 3: that they can feel like they can respect. And that's
22:17
Speaker 3: something I'm excited about because that means that leadership is
22:20
Speaker 3: going to continue to evolve, and the people that are
22:22
Speaker 3: able to rise won't just be good at what they do,
22:25
Speaker 3: won't just be someone who's good at networking up, but
22:28
Speaker 3: also someone who's good at networking across and continue to
22:31
Speaker 3: build and maintain trust down and at all levels of
22:36
Speaker 3: the organization. And so I think that's a couple of
22:38
Speaker 3: the ways that things are changing. I think that also
22:42
Speaker 3: from a just choosing a north star and solving for
22:46
Speaker 3: a type of perspective, I think the next generations is
22:49
Speaker 3: inheriting the same Industrial Revolution mindset that all the current
22:53
Speaker 3: working generations have, which is that organizations are systems and
22:58
Speaker 3: we have to you know, the best way to improve
23:00
Speaker 3: a system is to eliminate inefficiencies. Plus with shareholder primacy, right,
23:05
Speaker 3: there's some that people are brought in to be good operators,
23:09
Speaker 3: take value someone else already created, squeeze margin out of it,
23:13
Speaker 3: and then pay out to shareholders and so. But we
23:16
Speaker 3: have this amazing example of Microsoft making a huge transformation,
23:20
Speaker 3: not based on doing the thing they've been doing more efficiently,
23:24
Speaker 3: but by creating new value and so and completely transforming
23:29
Speaker 3: their culture. And so I think that with all that
23:31
Speaker 3: information and that's available to this next generation and from
23:36
Speaker 3: those that I've worked with, I do think that the
23:38
Speaker 3: future is bright and that and that there's this hunger
23:42
Speaker 3: for social connection and leadership that I think will be
23:47
Speaker 3: will be beneficial to the future.
23:51
Speaker 1: Amazing flesh out if you would, now, Brian, where a
23:55
Speaker 1: where and how AI enters this picture, because actually everything
23:59
Speaker 1: you said would presumably be just as warranted you know,
24:03
Speaker 1: five years ago, right, But yeah, how does how does
24:07
Speaker 1: AI play into these themes and currents?
24:10
Speaker 3: So I'm going to say something that's very different than
24:13
Speaker 3: probably some of your other guests. I don't know, but
24:17
Speaker 3: I don't think that AI is going the direction that
24:20
Speaker 3: most people think it is or say that it is.
24:23
Speaker 3: So I don't think we're moving toward a more AI
24:27
Speaker 3: powered future necessarily. I think we're going We've gone through
24:30
Speaker 3: this big, this big surgence of an experience of everybody
24:35
Speaker 3: learning about or feeling like they need to learn about
24:37
Speaker 3: AI or AI agents in order to keep up and
24:39
Speaker 3: be competitive. I think they've done a better job in
24:43
Speaker 3: terms of marketing AI than they did with robotic crosss,
24:46
Speaker 3: automation or previous waves of innovation, especially because of the
24:52
Speaker 3: sort of spiritual element that people have put in the
24:54
Speaker 3: fear and then the very constant you know, this is
24:58
Speaker 3: how many jobs are going to be lost because of AI,
25:00
Speaker 3: and then the restructuring that took place all along all
25:04
Speaker 3: being rebranded to we're restructuring because of AI. So there's
25:07
Speaker 3: this there's so many factors that are making it as
25:11
Speaker 3: front of mine and seeming as impactful as it is.
25:14
Speaker 3: Where I actually think that AI.
25:16
Speaker 1: Just to clarify your point, you're saying that the fear
25:21
Speaker 1: element that has attended awareness around AI has been a
25:25
Speaker 1: good marketing tool effectively.
25:29
Speaker 3: Run I hate it, but it is, and I think
25:32
Speaker 3: it's wrong. I think it's inaccurate, and I think that
25:35
Speaker 3: it's bad leadership.
25:36
Speaker 2: But from a marketing perspective, it's been effective. Right.
25:39
Speaker 3: And also a big difference is any of us who
25:42
Speaker 3: worked I mean this is a podcast for technologists, right,
25:45
Speaker 3: any of us who ever we all wrote. Well, when
25:47
Speaker 3: you first write a Pearl script, you think, oh my gosh,
25:49
Speaker 3: I've created life. Right, I run in and it does
25:52
Speaker 3: it look at that it opens up multiple windows or
25:54
Speaker 3: it closes them or whatever it does.
25:56
Speaker 2: Right.
25:57
Speaker 3: Let alone, you know, writing full applications and and then
26:01
Speaker 3: you know, onboarding users who aren't technical, and then thinking how.
26:04
Speaker 2: Did you do this?
26:05
Speaker 3: So what chatbt did that was different was suddenly everyone
26:11
Speaker 3: else could experience what those of us who were technical
26:13
Speaker 3: had been doing for a long time. They could suddenly
26:17
Speaker 3: really in there, in that moment, interact with a machine
26:20
Speaker 3: and have it do an output that was seemingly really valuable.
26:25
Speaker 3: And so and that a form factor. So it was
26:27
Speaker 3: democratize access to a type of computing that previously only
26:32
Speaker 3: technologists could access and only through writing layers of code
26:36
Speaker 3: and different functions and you know, handling promises correctly and
26:41
Speaker 3: all these other things that were very very hard to do.
26:44
Speaker 3: Now you could just type it into it, you know,
26:46
Speaker 3: on your on your phone. You could just do it right.
26:47
Speaker 3: So I think that was another big reason. But in
26:49
Speaker 3: terms of your question, where I think AI is actually
26:51
Speaker 3: headed is a couple of things. One is, I think
26:53
Speaker 3: that if and when someone actually succeeds at creating AI
26:58
Speaker 3: agents that are not mouth for brain agents where they
27:02
Speaker 3: treat the language models as the mouth and as the ears,
27:05
Speaker 3: but not the brains of the operation. So most any
27:09
Speaker 3: architecture where the LLM is at the center, I call
27:11
Speaker 3: a mouth for brains agent because it will hallucinate. And
27:14
Speaker 3: you wouldn't hire someone who in the final stage of
27:16
Speaker 3: the interview said just you know, right, I do hallucinate, right,
27:21
Speaker 3: you wouldn't. And yet that's you know, there's so many
27:24
Speaker 3: that and it's it's brilliant. I mean agents, autonomous AI
27:28
Speaker 3: existed before chat GBT, and yet yet these these foundation
27:32
Speaker 3: companies have done a great job again for marketing defining
27:35
Speaker 3: an AI is so much so that even major institutions
27:38
Speaker 3: are defining an AI agent as an LM equipped with
27:42
Speaker 3: you know, context and tools and stuff like that. And
27:44
Speaker 3: it's when actually autonomous AI, you should define an AI
27:50
Speaker 3: agent off of what it does, what it's capable of,
27:54
Speaker 3: not how it's made. Right, you wouldn't say, a person
27:57
Speaker 3: is a brain, you know, with arms and legs, right Like,
28:02
Speaker 3: that's not what we are.
28:03
Speaker 2: And an AI agent is not an LM.
28:06
Speaker 3: A good AI agent is a system that you can
28:08
Speaker 3: assign a task and know that it's going to produce
28:12
Speaker 3: the outcome. You can send it into the field, so
28:14
Speaker 3: to speak. And so anyway, So in terms of where
28:17
Speaker 3: I think it's all headed, I think actually that and
28:21
Speaker 3: I wrote a thesis on this recently that I'm really
28:23
Speaker 3: excited there's a major retailer that's diving in to this,
28:26
Speaker 3: this idea that I think humans are going to be
28:28
Speaker 3: the interface. I think we're going to see a huge resurgence.
28:32
Speaker 3: I don't think that's temporary. Just like everyone thought that
28:35
Speaker 3: everything was going to be the metaverse and then people
28:38
Speaker 3: just didn't buy it, and then that folded, And so
28:40
Speaker 3: I think the same thing's about to happen with AI,
28:42
Speaker 3: where not the day I is going to fold, but
28:44
Speaker 3: that the smart companies will adjust and pivot to making
28:47
Speaker 3: humans the interface. And by that I mean that AI
28:50
Speaker 3: can be and I can speak in this in technical terms,
28:53
Speaker 3: AI can be the middleware and then they can make
28:56
Speaker 3: you can have humans be the first touch of any
28:58
Speaker 3: major experience without like while still reducing costs. And the
29:04
Speaker 3: labor equation has traditionally been, well, humans are really expensive,
29:08
Speaker 3: and so you know, let's keep coming up with more
29:11
Speaker 3: and more ways to automate things. But now our lot
29:14
Speaker 3: and we've created all these products, except you know, one
29:17
Speaker 3: hundred years ago, seven hundred and fifty thousand women in
29:19
Speaker 3: the US were employed as washer women, and then we
29:22
Speaker 3: created a product, right washing machine, and then those jobs
29:26
Speaker 3: went away. And then you know, there were travel agencies
29:30
Speaker 3: thirty years ago, and then Travelocity and Expedia came out,
29:33
Speaker 3: and then travel agencies shut down. But now, if you
29:36
Speaker 3: think about it, the stacking of what that's done also
29:39
Speaker 3: is incrementally stack more and more work onto the consumer,
29:44
Speaker 3: to the degree that every single day, if I want
29:46
Speaker 3: to get anything done, how many systems do I log into?
29:49
Speaker 2: Every day?
29:49
Speaker 1: Right?
29:50
Speaker 3: So, if instead I could have a service where I
29:53
Speaker 3: could say, I'm planning this trip, and here's everything I'm
29:57
Speaker 3: thinking about. We want to go to this place, can
29:59
Speaker 3: you create any tenerary for me? A lot of people
30:01
Speaker 3: would pay a premium for that service, you know, an
30:05
Speaker 3: extra percentage of their overall trip value, because it would
30:08
Speaker 3: be so much easier and better than having to do
30:10
Speaker 3: all that research themselves, rather than trying to have an
30:13
Speaker 3: AI do it for them and hallucinate places or book
30:17
Speaker 3: them in hotels that don't exist or whatever. Right so,
30:20
Speaker 3: and I think the same will be true for both
30:22
Speaker 3: from an experience perspective. Even McDonald's they experimented with autonomous
30:27
Speaker 3: drive throughs where you didn't have to talk to anybody.
30:29
Speaker 3: Even in that moment, people hated it. They they were
30:32
Speaker 3: even in that very small window, they still wanted a
30:35
Speaker 3: human interaction. And so I think that the savvy companies
30:38
Speaker 3: are going to pivot and say, let's put humans in front,
30:41
Speaker 3: let's let's reduce costs in the middle with AI and
30:45
Speaker 3: other systems. And then I think there will be a
30:48
Speaker 3: bunch of new types of organizations that don't exist today
30:51
Speaker 3: that will be like travel agencies, but where maybe instead
30:55
Speaker 3: of having one person that can only handle a couple
30:58
Speaker 3: of cases at a time, maybe maybe you have one
31:00
Speaker 3: person that can handle dozens of cases at a time
31:04
Speaker 3: way more efficiently thanks to all these tools to.
31:07
Speaker 1: Pick up as well as something you mentioned about that
31:09
Speaker 1: the sort of wave of fear and neurosies for AI
31:12
Speaker 1: has kind of left in its wake, right because I
31:15
Speaker 1: was reflecting the other day on you know, sometimes you
31:19
Speaker 1: sense it in yourself, no, like there's a panic that
31:22
Speaker 1: somebody is going to figure out something about your your
31:25
Speaker 1: job or your life, which just makes leaves you in
31:28
Speaker 1: the dust, you know, just leaves you behind permanently, just
31:31
Speaker 1: going to make you outmoaded from one hour to the
31:33
Speaker 1: next because you weren't absolutely and I thought, you know,
31:37
Speaker 1: I'm sure I'm not unique in feeling that that occasional
31:40
Speaker 1: sense of anxiety. You can actually see it in the
31:42
Speaker 1: way people post and engage online and in the way
31:44
Speaker 1: people try and create engagement online using it using exactly. Yeah,
31:50
Speaker 1: and I did think. I did think, well, this is
31:52
Speaker 1: such a sort of like not only probably unnecessary and inaccurate,
31:56
Speaker 1: but it's an unhealthy environment in which for people to
31:59
Speaker 1: be created and productive, right to always have one eye
32:03
Speaker 1: on your own, on your own inimitent extinction, professional extinction,
32:08
Speaker 1: it can't be getting the best out of anybody.
32:11
Speaker 2: Yeah.
32:11
Speaker 3: Well, I mean it's funny that you say that, because
32:13
Speaker 3: that's one of the things I wrote about in the book,
32:15
Speaker 3: which is that people experience uncertainty as physical pain. So
32:20
Speaker 3: when you are feeling uncertain about your future, you're not
32:23
Speaker 3: just sort of oh, I'm a little bit uncomfortable, like
32:25
Speaker 3: your your brain is registering it as physical pain. And
32:29
Speaker 3: you can imagine like when you're some if you stub
32:31
Speaker 3: your toe, like you can't think about anything else until
32:35
Speaker 3: that pain wears off. And so when people are uncertain,
32:38
Speaker 3: they it's very tough to be productive and to think
32:41
Speaker 3: or even to just feel at peace, which you know
32:45
Speaker 3: is a precursor to productivity, but in some in some ways.
32:49
Speaker 2: But yeah, so I think that the I think that.
32:52
Speaker 3: The the best thing that leaders can do is instead
32:56
Speaker 3: of trying to give certainty we know that this won't
32:59
Speaker 3: change this or that, because often they might feel like,
33:02
Speaker 3: well I don't know yet what's going to change or
33:04
Speaker 3: house I don't want to make promises I can't.
33:06
Speaker 2: Keep, so instead just give clarity. So the idea of.
33:09
Speaker 3: Saying, okay, we we this is the committee of people
33:13
Speaker 3: that are exploring where and how AI is going to
33:15
Speaker 3: transform things and the way we work. We're setting off
33:19
Speaker 3: on a six month initiative to go determine that.
33:22
Speaker 2: With Brian Evergreen.
33:25
Speaker 3: No, but we're just setting off, you know, six month
33:27
Speaker 3: initiative to go figure that out and decide what future
33:30
Speaker 3: we're solving for decide what we're going to do with
33:31
Speaker 3: AI and then and we'll be reporting out to all
33:35
Speaker 3: of you in six months time. What you're communicating there
33:39
Speaker 3: is nobody needs to worry about anything for six months
33:42
Speaker 3: because at a minimum.
33:43
Speaker 2: That's how long it's going to take.
33:44
Speaker 3: So at least those six months, Okay, let's just do
33:47
Speaker 3: our work and trust that the leadership is going to
33:49
Speaker 3: come back.
33:49
Speaker 2: And you can even add, our.
33:51
Speaker 3: Goal in this process is to create more value, more jobs,
33:57
Speaker 3: and we want to honor all of you who brought
33:59
Speaker 3: our company to this point, and the same values we've
34:02
Speaker 3: espoused from the beginning, we're going to keep, you know,
34:04
Speaker 3: keep honoring those values as we move forward, and you
34:08
Speaker 3: can give your employees a lot of relief. And on
34:10
Speaker 3: your individual level, what I'd say is, you know, there's
34:13
Speaker 3: there's proverbs and ideas from across cultures throughout history saying,
34:19
Speaker 3: you know, leave to tomorrow what is tomorrow's and do
34:22
Speaker 3: the best you can today. So I think that what
34:24
Speaker 3: I would say is don't treat the future. Solving idea
34:27
Speaker 3: around that would be, don't treat the future like it's
34:29
Speaker 3: coming at you. Instead, decide what future do I want
34:33
Speaker 3: to move toward and what would have to be true
34:36
Speaker 3: for me to move toward that future. So the future
34:39
Speaker 3: is I don't want to be in a position where
34:41
Speaker 3: i'm you know, where I'm not valuable, let's say, or
34:43
Speaker 3: where I'm not valued or my position is eliminated. Well,
34:47
Speaker 3: if you're working at a company, you're in a position
34:49
Speaker 3: where your position could eliminated, even if you're an SVP.
34:52
Speaker 3: But the difference there is very senior leaders have relational
34:56
Speaker 3: networks that will catch them because organizations aren't really these
35:00
Speaker 3: days operating as meritocracies the way they used to, but
35:03
Speaker 3: relationships are continue to be and are the oldest meritocracies.
35:09
Speaker 3: So for me, if today I worked for let's say
35:12
Speaker 3: I still worked at Microsoft and I were laid off,
35:15
Speaker 3: I have relationships with leaders across so many different companies
35:19
Speaker 3: that I could reach out to and say it was
35:21
Speaker 3: just laid off. This is the work I've been doing,
35:23
Speaker 3: this is what I wanted to keep doing. Are you
35:26
Speaker 3: aware of anything? And actually, you know, I have a
35:29
Speaker 3: lot of friends that that's how they almost immediately landed
35:33
Speaker 3: their next role when they went through a layoff. Other
35:35
Speaker 3: people that I know also friends only built relationships within
35:39
Speaker 3: that one company, and then when a layoff happened, they
35:42
Speaker 3: looked around saying, Oh my goodness, I don't know what
35:45
Speaker 3: to do because all the leaders that I know that
35:47
Speaker 3: have power anywhere are the company I just got laid
35:50
Speaker 3: off from.
35:50
Speaker 2: They're not hiring.
35:51
Speaker 3: They just did a eight thousand person layoff or whatever
35:54
Speaker 3: the number is.
35:55
Speaker 2: So what do I do?
35:56
Speaker 3: And So whereas others who had been had put energy
36:00
Speaker 3: and effort into building strong relationships at all levels up
36:04
Speaker 3: down side the side of throughout their entire career, everyone
36:08
Speaker 3: they ever worked with, they maintained positive rapport with, had
36:12
Speaker 3: tons of different options of people they could reach out
36:14
Speaker 3: to when something like that happens. So that's the other
36:16
Speaker 3: thing I'd say is instead of focus focus on is
36:19
Speaker 3: John Maxwell's two circles, right, your circle of concern versus
36:23
Speaker 3: your circle of influence, and there's an overlap there, right,
36:26
Speaker 3: So do the things that you can influence that will
36:28
Speaker 3: build the skills the relationships that will carry you through
36:31
Speaker 3: whatever seasons.
36:33
Speaker 2: Instead of.
36:35
Speaker 3: Bolstering yourself in fear for what may come.
36:40
Speaker 1: Individual as well structural wisdom there I think very very
36:44
Speaker 1: good stuff. Final question for you, what organizations out there
36:49
Speaker 1: we might not have heard of. Are's most exciting to
36:52
Speaker 1: you or individual entrepreneurs like I just be curious to
36:57
Speaker 1: who resonates most of your philosophy. I guess it is
37:01
Speaker 1: the inevitable answer to some degree.
37:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I mean one one, I'll share one, which
37:06
Speaker 3: is I have all.
37:08
Speaker 2: He's a former Microsoft colleague.
37:09
Speaker 3: He's the person that I know that has built the
37:11
Speaker 3: most autonomous AI systems that actually went into deployment with
37:16
Speaker 3: major companies. Over he designed over two hundred for Fortune
37:20
Speaker 3: five hundred companies while he was at Microsoft.
37:22
Speaker 2: He since left.
37:23
Speaker 3: He started a startup called a Mesa ame s A
37:28
Speaker 3: and it's an acrosstic that I can't remember what they
37:32
Speaker 3: all stand for.
37:33
Speaker 2: You'd have to look it up yourself.
37:34
Speaker 3: But if it's a mesa, dot com is their website.
37:37
Speaker 3: But he wrote the book for O'Reilly called Designing Autonomous AI.
37:41
Speaker 3: He wrote a follow up on AI Agent's And when
37:44
Speaker 3: you get in a room with him, you should have Frankly,
37:47
Speaker 3: you should have him on the podcast.
37:48
Speaker 2: But when you get in a room with him, you realize.
37:50
Speaker 3: This gentleman knows exactly what he's talking about. He was
37:53
Speaker 3: a mechanical engineer. He deeply understands creating practical value with
37:57
Speaker 3: these autonomous systems as opposed to following hype and hoping
38:04
Speaker 3: that things work out like he was. He was building
38:06
Speaker 3: AI autonomous AI systems with organizations long years before chat
38:10
Speaker 3: gipt ever came out. And so it's been it's been
38:13
Speaker 3: frustrating to see all these other people that have dived
38:17
Speaker 3: into the space, gained renown when the thing and watching
38:21
Speaker 3: helplessly as you see, Oh no, the way they're going
38:24
Speaker 3: about it will fail. But after many hundreds of millions
38:27
Speaker 3: of dollars or maybe billions have been spent. But if
38:30
Speaker 3: they all worked with people like Kent's his name's Ken
38:33
Speaker 3: s Anderson, they worked with people like him, they would
38:37
Speaker 3: they would the money would be well spent, and they
38:40
Speaker 3: would they would create the value that they want to create.
38:43
Speaker 3: Or he would tell them, no, you can't do that
38:44
Speaker 3: with the systems.
38:45
Speaker 2: He'd be honest with them. So and those are rare.
38:48
Speaker 3: So I I that's someone I have been and continue
38:51
Speaker 3: to be excited about.
38:53
Speaker 1: An excellent heartfelt plug for your friend there. And he's
38:55
Speaker 1: very welcome on the show, no doubt about it. And
38:58
Speaker 1: you're very you're very welcome to join us again someday Brian,
39:00
Speaker 1: it's been a genuine, genuine pleasure having you on and
39:04
Speaker 1: just to just to put a second plug out to
39:07
Speaker 1: the listeners to if you want to hear from another
39:09
Speaker 1: friend of Brian's, Kazi Kezikov, check out Soul Off the
39:13
Speaker 1: Cio over on YouTube. A lot of there in person
39:17
Speaker 1: in studio interviews me and as well as Cassie, the
39:22
Speaker 1: likes of Neildergrass Tyson is on the show, and we've
39:24
Speaker 1: had some incredible guests and we'd love for some of
39:27
Speaker 1: our listeners to go and go and check that out. Brian,
39:31
Speaker 1: thank you so so much for joining us. Wonderful to
39:33
Speaker 1: speech you.
39:33
Speaker 2: Man, my pleasure, thanks for having me.
39:37
Speaker 1: That's it for this week's Deck Show.
39:39
Speaker 3: We'll be back next week and if you don't already,
39:41
Speaker 3: be sure to follow the show so you don't miss
39:43
Speaker 3: an episode until next time.