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The Uncomplicated Magic of Dua Lipa · Syllabus

• Coco: It's almost like Dua Lipa doesn't have anything left to prove. Welcome to Syllabus, the podcast hosted by two recovering straight-A millennials, Ashby and Coco, who live to overanalyze the media and culture we encounter while shedding the gold star culture that made us, Ashby: and occasionally getting lost in a tangent. If you too can't help but think a little too deeply about books movies and more you come across you're in the right place. Coco: We are so glad you're here. Ashby: Let's get into it. ashby: I really love when there's a Ashby needs to do no homework, just come in totally cold episode. That's my favorite kind of episode. Coco: Yeah. ashby: And when it's about something interesting that I don't know too much about like this, but low stakes. Like I'm glad you're not gonna be like, What's your definition of capitalism? 'Cause I will have wanted to give that some thought. Coco: Well, when I went to my socialist meetings, they were like, write down what the definition of capitalism is and write down what the definition of socialism is. And it's like, I know what these things are, but when you put me on the spot like that, I did freeze. Yeah. No, no. ashby: So are you gonna make me do with Dua Lipa? Okay. Coco: So yes, we're gonna be talking about Dua Lipa today. I'm so excited ashby: Well. Coco: to talk about this person, this pop star, this Podcaster, and somewhat activist. Yeah. ashby: Woman, the myth, the legend. Coco: A hundred percent. And I've been, you know, when we're preparing for these episodes, I use the people in my life as like this mini case study to like gauge like what are people thinking about this person. I said, hey, I posted on s on Instagram. I'm putting together an episode about Dualipa. You know, what do you think of her? I've been talking to people. It's been very fascinating. Like The general feedback I've gotten is Dua Lipa. I really like Dua Lipa. I don't know that much about Dua Lipa. That ashby: Ha ha. Coco: is the general consensus. And so I'm excited to dive in today. And I I promised you that I would ask you what do you know, or what do you, what is your impression as I've been, you know, surveying my friends. what is your impression of Dua Lipa? ashby: Okay, here's my here's what I know about Dua Lipa. Dua Lipa in like 2019 had a pop feature song crossover with the band, the K-pop band Plack Blackpink. And I would say that was like my like first exposure to her. And it's not an understatement to say that that was like my bop of that year, Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: because that was a year that I was heavily dating on the dating apps. It's just one of those songs. It's like very like girl put your makeup on while you're getting ready to go out. And it made me feel very cool to listen to. and it's funny, early on, dating now husband, I was like, What are your celebrity crushes? And now that I know husband much better, I know that he just named the first two celebrities he could think of. And one of them was Dua Lipa, but I don't think now I know. him better and I don't think he has a such thing as a celebrity crush. He just thought Coco: What was the other one? ashby: Rosalia. And I was like Coco: Really great choices. ashby: so I really think he just was I I must say, it couldn't be more different than me, but that's okay. But that Coco: No no listener, Ashby looks exactly like Dua Lipa. It's like if Sandy Squirrel and Dua Lipa met. ashby: Yeah, I do get that a lot, actually. No, no. There there's some commonalities. Coco: Okay. ashby: the other thing I know about Dualipa is I think she's sort of a talk show darling. Like when I've ever seen her on talk show, she's just incredibly charming and cool. Then of Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: course she has the Barbie the Barbie movie song hit song, Coco: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. ashby: which was a great hit. I know she has kind of like a an internet book club presence that I haven't dived into too much, but that people that I think are smart, Coco: We're gonna talk about it. ashby: smart and cool think is cool. And then yeah, same in terms of like coverage of her. obviously I've seen the Doola Peeps meme and that's very funny. Coco: Doula Peeps meme. ashby: I think it's Wendy Williamson. there's like a clip of her trying to talk about Dua Lipa. Coco: Wendy Williams, yeah. Yeah. ashby: Wendy Williams, sorry, Wendy Williams, trying to talk about d Dua Lipa and calling her doula peeps. I Coco: Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. ashby: I also have recently some of the pop culture podcasts I like were covering her wedding, her and Coco: Yes. ashby: how sort of co honestly contrasting it with Taylor Swift's wedding. I like Coco: Of course. They were borderline same day. Like they were really the same week or whatever. Mm-hmm. ashby: Yeah. And as a person that sort of eloped myself, I really respected her kind of, you know, small get together, not so much you know, she did have like the bigger party or whatever. Coco: I was like and then there is some also backlash to her ashby: Yeah. Coco: shutting down part of It ashby: Yes. Coco: a Palermo. ashby: But like, you know, she has like the courthouse outfit and just like is a small get-together. And I was like, I really, I really love the fashion from that. And then I gotta say, I feel like an old millennial who doesn't know who all the cool celebrities are. I think that I get Barry Keegan and her now husband mixed up. So my bad. But I I have I have seen more pictures. Sorry. Coco: Wow. They're quite different. Callum Turner. Uh-huh. Barry Q. ashby: God, what is wrong with me? I am a total, I have total like mom celebrity name brain. Wendy Williamson, Doula Peeps, Coco: Men's names before. It's okay. ashby: Doula Peeps, Barry Keegan. Who the fuck is Barry Keegan? Barry Coco: Hm, I'm sure there's an Irish guy out there named Barry Keegan. ashby: Keegan is probably like celebrated Polka artist, Barry Keegan. Anyways, but I have seen more coverage in like some promos of movies that this new movie that Callum Turner is in. And I have Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: to say he has one of those Hollywood faces that I quite like. He just has an interesting and nice face. Coco: So let's start there. I think I wanna start in the present and then maybe like go back in ashby: Yeah, yeah. Coco: time with Dua Lipa. So ashby: And by the way, that's a full summary of everything I know about Dualipa. Okay. Coco: Yeah, no, no, I th that's a comprehensive survey, yes, of Ash. D could you other th can you name a Dua Lipa song? Other than the Blackpink song? ashby: Honestly, could I name the Black Pig song? That Coco: Yeah. ashby: is like one of my top most played songs? Coco: Yeah. ashby: Hmm, maybe not, no. Coco: Speaking of but you said it was important to you while you were dating. I was just at brunch talking about Dua Lipa. I've just been like nonstop talking about Dua Lipa. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: and you know, it's not just this podcast where I force my interest on people. I I do it in my personal life as well. but our friend was saying that when she was heavily dating, she used the song New Rules. So I got new rules, I count ashby: yes. I know I know. I remember that one. Coco: She was like, that was my manifesto. She was like, that ashby: Nice. Coco: got me through dating to be like have high standards. And maybe if we feel like it, we can take a look at the music video. I don't want us to get I don't want our podcast to be shut down for right music rights issues. So I don't know really what the line is. ashby: wait, there's Coco: okay, so I would say a couple of things about Dua Lipa. So over the past, I would say like six to nine months, I feel like the algorithm is serving has been serving me up Dua Lipa content. This is largely due to the gorgeous photos of Dua Lipa and Callum Turner that have been, you know, circulating leading up to their wedding, them her posting them on her own Instagram, right? and ashby: huh. Coco: then like Bravo accounts I follow are just like goddamn, like goddamn like look how gorgeous and hot and cool these people look. Like it that is really where where it's coming from. ashby: They really are maybe the hottest couple I've ever seen. I didn't Coco: Yes. ashby: even know that like I didn't know this, but 'cause I am familiar with celebrity couples, but these are two where they're equally very hot and then together somehow it's extra hot. Coco: Yes. ashby: and that almost never happens. It's usually like, you know, stunning gorgeous woman and sloth man. So Yeah, this is Yeah, truly unexpectedly. Coco: Yeah. This the sum is greater than the parts, like a little bit. Yeah. and I do think that it's funny. I have seen I have seen Callum Turner in the I think it's called Eternity. I watched like the first half of it and I didn't love the movie. And I would say Callum Turner gorgeous. I'm not like I'm not like totally sold on like the acting, but like, you know, let's give him a chance. I did hear that. the his new movie, like One Night Only. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: I was listening to We're Obsessed, the We're Obsessed Pod. They were talking about it and they were like, So the premise of this is it's a rom-com that's taking place under fascism. Because ashby: Whoa. Coco: you're only allowed to have sex for one night only. And they were like, There's probably in here in this movie, like there's probably a version of this movie that's really That's like a satire of rom-coms that's really playing with the fact that it's under fascism, but everyone's pretending to be happy and do rom-com. They were like, it feels like that's maybe where we started and then we've gotten like noted to death, and now it's like a very strange product. And it ashby: Hm. Coco: I did make me think, like the materialists. ashby: Yes. Okay, I didn't know that. I've only seen the po like the movie posters and a couple of little clips of it. And it very much was just giving regular rom com. But it seems like that's what they keep trying to do. They keep trying to like like when you give your pet medicine and you wrap it in cheese or peanut butter, it's like they're like, It's a fun rom com. Remember these? And then they try to give you a twist when you get in there. That's not what people want. Okay. Why are they doing that? Yeah. Coco: Yeah, don't bait and switch us. You know, like don't ashby: Don't do that. Coco: don't do that. yeah. So I thought, okay, Ashby, have you you're not really so much on an Instagram, right? ashby: No, I'm really not. Coco: So I thought maybe what we could do is just take a peek at Dua Lipa's Instagram. And what I would like to say is ashby: Whoa. Coco: I consume, let's just I consume every po photo that Dua Lipa posts. I am truly like nom nom nom nom nom. Give them to me. Let me look at the ashby: You're a stan. You're a full stan. Coco: yes, it it is like this 1.3 million likes. This is a classic Dua Lipa. She's just making Yeah, yeah. Maybe maybe you can describe a little describe a little bit of what about what's going on. Mm-hmm. ashby: my god, she's doing a pottery my god, that's so hot. Okay, I've done a pottery class before and it's really difficult but fun. so this is incredible. I love that she just posted a video of her doing some pottery. Coco: Right. ashby: here she is just making a face and riding by on what appears to be either a bicycle or an e bike. here she is candidly out with some friends. One of her friends is smoking and they're all mugging the camera. Coco: Sus Molly Molly like Sternberg from the bear and ashby: Mm-hmm. More pottery. Coco: other things. Yeah. Girls night out. Like I will say looking at Dua Lipa's Instagram, it will make you wanna like drink like a dirty martini. And you have to remember that like you are not Dua Lipa. Like that's not gonna go as well for you. ashby: Well, very unfortunately it's also gonna make me wanna do a dark mauve lip with a dark lip liner, and that is not a look for me. So yeah. Coco: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It makes me want to wear like no bra backless like tank top. And it's like, well, you know, me and Duo Liba are different. ashby: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Coco: So I just do I just can I love to look at these these photos. This is a great we got a great one here. so here she is. Yeah. ashby: say it doesn't feel like un I again I'm not much of a Instagram Coco: Yeah, no organ organic reactions. ashby: yeah I'm not much of a on Instagram person but compared to some of the other Instagram famous people that I've seen this this looks like it might be her personal Instagram these are not super composed shots they really seem Coco: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. ashby: like they're straight from her camera roll they don't Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: so many people will use their Instagram as a place to post like Had a great photo shoot today with Vogue and put their very hyper well done done thing with Vogue on Coco: Yeah. ashby: there. Or you know, another good great promotional thing with my beauty brand today launched. But this is really just her doing stuff and it looks to be pictures that she's taken. I do Coco: Yeah, I mean and it ashby: feel like I'm her friend. Coco: It's it it's the right mix, right? Like of authenticity ashby: Yeah. Coco: and I mean, of course, she's also posting herself in glam, right? ashby: And promo, you know. Mm-hmm. Coco: Like, and then occasionally, I don't think there's anyone in the carousel I'm clicking through right now, but occasionally you'll see her like in the studio, which is like a little ashby: Okay. Coco: like giving Reddit their nom nom noms, because Reddit ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: is always like, When does Dua Lipa have no music? It's been two years since her last album was released. The rumor is maybe we'll get a little taste of something in October, which will be really exciting. ashby: cool. Happy birthday to Coco: but yeah, and I think, you know, you'll s ashby: Coco. Coco: you'll see exactly you'll see a lot of food in her Instagrams, you'll see a lot of friends, you'll see a lot of travel. ashby: I gotta say, I love her commitment to one color palette. Sh the g the girl likes to wear black. black and white. Okay. Yeah. Coco: Yep, yep, uhhuh. Uhhuh here, let's go to a vacation he won. Five point two million likes. ashby: Cute. Cute, cute. Okay, this is my god, they are so gorgeous. It hurts my face. Coco: They're mm-hmm. Yeah, tell tell the people what you're looking at. Mm-hmm. ashby: it looks like Dua Lipa hanging on Callum Turner's neck and they're outside of s like the Acropolis or something. So some big Greek looking temple thing. very adorable. Here's her playing cards on a boat in a bikini looking absolutely stunning. yeah, yeah. Coco: Stunning, bikini fighting for its life as they say. this is there ashby: Huh. Coco: there you go. ashby: There we go. Here's her half naked and what appears to be a like Coco: Bubble bath. ashby: like a bubble bath, but like this is this is Italy or Greece or something. It's like travertine. Anyway, I'm sick Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ashby: 'cause I under I I immediately recognize the materials in the of the architectural part of the room. but yes. Yeah. Lovely. Coco: Yeah, yeah. ashby: This must be them in Italy on their honeymoon. Coco: And and you know, we know that Callum Turner and Dua Lee I think this photo of Callum Turner where he's just making kind of like a funny face. I I'm like I think this is a I think this is a gorgeous man. I think he's also a dork and I think that's great for her. ashby: Well, I what you're getting is the way that a man is a dork to his significant other. Like you're she's showing you that that side of him. It's like they're Coco: Yeah, huh, huh, huh, uh-huh. ashby: they have their dorky faces and their dad mo dad joke moments and stuff like that. Coco: But you understand now that I why I'm going nom nom nom every time she posts. I'm like, give it give me some more. ashby: Yeah, because it's fun. It it's fun, but it's like I don't look at these and feel I don't feel bad. Like she's not like I'm sure she does have pictures of her at the Met Gala in here somewhere, but I don't feel sort of like sad that I I don't feel like this is a person rubbing their like status or celebrity in my face. I feel like I feel like Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ashby: it's a person that I know having regular experiences who happens to be famous. Like Coco: Right. ashby: This is me watching my friend go on their honeymoon to to Italy and take pictures of the food and posting inside jokes with the husband. Like I'm like, good for them, you know. But I don't feel a sense of like this is they're they're not trying to give me a sense of this is unattainable for you. Your life is so boring by comparison. It's like they're sharing it with me. Coco: 100% agree. It's very hard to explain why her life, which is absolutely unattainable, but the types ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: of experiences that she's having, it's like you don't have to be at the exact resort that she's at to kind of do the same things that she's doing. Do you know what I mean? Like it does ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Coco: and it and there's a real sense of like, first of all, she knows how to nail that like hot girl big open mouth smile wink. Like it's very It's very cool and and it but it's also communicating like fun, loose, not stiff, not like yeah, yeah, ashby: It's candid, yeah, yeah. Coco: yeah. that's great. And and then I I I did text you that I did discover that she has hot parents. And I do think that this just somehow explains a lot. So that's her mom. Mm-hmm. ashby: that'll do it. Yeah, that does that does explain the h the whole thing. Okay, here's another thing that I know is that that I almost forgot. But isn't she like South American? Okay. Coco: No. And this is also what I was asking people like, what do you think about Dua Lipa? And they some people thought she was American, people don't know. But Dua Lipa, so let's g let's talk a little bit about kind of who Dua Lipa's family is. Yeah. ashby: Or or she's okay, here's what I know. I get her mixed up with the background that Anya Taylor Joy has because often the two of them are on Coco: Uh-huh. ashby: talk shows and they talk about their background and it's always not what you expect and it's like a little bit not what you expect. So I I get them mixed but like Anya Taylor Joy is like her first language is Spanish and she's like Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: I think maybe I should know this by now, but I think she's maybe from Argentina, but like has family roots elsewhere and so Dualipa's one of those where like you learn more of her backstory and you're like, that's not that's not what I thought it was. So I she has like a stelph, yeah. Coco: Yeah. I mean, I think in our pop our episode about Sabrina Carpenter, we were kind of talking about like the whiteness of pop stars. And ashby: Okay. Coco: I Dua Lipa like a white person. Like I'm not trying to say she's not, but there is we were talking about like proximity to whiteness in that episode. And I think Dua Lipa's background is super important to understanding Dua Lipa's worldview. Mm-hmm. ashby: But I'm I should just say for context, only reason I'm mentioning this is there's a lot of pictures of her at soccer outings and things like that, which is very like a person from either South America or Europe, very invested in these this lifestyle. Yeah. Coco: Yes. And I do I did pull up what Ashby is looking at right now is the photo of her whole family. So her sister and her brother and her two parents. ashby: my God, they're all beautiful. Coco: They're yes, they're all beautiful. and they are rooting for the Emirates. So there was a viral photo of well, I put a photo asterisk ashby: Yeah, yeah. Coco: next to it of Dua Lipa and Callum Turner at the England game in like England gear. That was actually Some that was a different celebrity couple that I'm forgetting who it religionally ashby: Mm. Coco: was, and they AI changed it. ashby: my god. Coco: and there was like a joke that was like England won this game because Duo Lipa gets everything she wants. And it was like ashby: Mm. Coco: Dua Lipa wasn't there, Duo Lipa is not ostensibly even like rooting for England. Like, I don't know, but it looks like her and her family are rooting for Emirates. So ashby: Okay. Got it, got it. Coco: Duo Lipa was born in London. In I know you you're not looking at what I'm looking ashby: I kn I yeah, Coco: at, but ashby: yeah, yeah. No, I knew she was British. I knew she was like yeah, from the UK, yeah. Coco: Mm-hmm. Yeah. But and so she lived in London until she was like eleven, but her family is Kosovo Albanian or Kosovar Albanian. So they're from Kosovo, but they're kind of ethnically Albanian and speak Albanian. and they their her family had like her parents had left because there was a lot of conflict and war ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: and man, I tried to learn as much as I could about Kosovo, and that is a the topic I ashby: That's a bummer. Coco: Well, it's a bummer. It's also like, man, the it was it was like there's not just like one clean conflict. There's a number of of things that were going on in, you know, the eighties and nineties, kind of post Soviet. so she grew up in in London, but then when she was around age eleven, that her family did move back to Kosovo. her dad had a job opportunity or kind of that wanted to be closer to ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: family. And what's interesting is that Dua Lipa has said that she experienced a lot of freedom when she was in living in Kosovo again, in Pristina, and like a different sense of to when she lived in London. So she's living in London. It's like her parents wouldn't let her just like roam the streets. But ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: when they moved back, they were in this community where kind of everyone knew each other and she could just like kind of do what she wanted and like go spend time and other people cared for all the kids. Like just really experiencing like a level of community that felt different from being in London. before she had moved back to Kosovo, she had enrolled in like a music school. And so she had like kind of begun to be like a singer. And she said she was like nine years old and she had a teacher that was really kind of pushing her. So she was like even as a nine-year-old, like amongst like an older class of students, you know, ashby: Yeah. Coco: singing. and her father is also in a band. in in Kosovo. And then he also works like in the music industry. This is not to say this is not a like Nepo baby situation whatsoever. it is though I think that situation of having parents who are artists and you grow up around music and you grow up around artists. And then he his job when he moved back was to you know help organize concerts in Pristina. and so I think there's also I'm just imagining this. There's a a a sense of seeing what, you know, musicians' careers can look like and like believing that's possible. and so Dua Lipa kind of knows what she wants. She like knows she wants to, you know, be a mu a music artist and ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: feels that she'll have a better chance, you know, of making it if she moves back to London. And so she does move back to London. quote unquote by herself when she's fifteen, but she's living with family. Like she's living with like family friends, people who were in her community in London and like with the understanding of her parents. So she ashby: Yeah. Coco: does move back to London and that's where she like begins her her music career. ashby: That makes sense. And yeah, I didn't I wasn't getting Nepo baby, I was getting more like origin story, you know? Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I I just mentioned that I think that her her relationship to being Albanian and being kind of a Kosovo Albanian is really important for understanding how she like has always been a kind of a put very politically minded place. I also read in Wikipedia that both of her grandfathers were historians. ashby: wow. Coco: So she's very like aware of the ways in which you know, kind of historical forces affect people. and she like loves pop music. Like I think it's just like get you a girl who can do both or whatever. ashby: that's so true. Coco: The earliest interview I could find with her, it was in some publication called Line of Best Fit. So she would have been like 20 or 21. and she was this was kind of in 2016, so kind of quite a while a decade ago. and this was right after Brexit, and she had like voted against Brexit. and I just thought maybe you could read this. this quote from her where she's talking about, you know, how she views Brexit. ashby: Sure. So she says, it's sad, especially when I see Kosovo, where they're trying so hard to be young Europeans and try to be accepted by the EU, then seeing this and throwing it away, especially when a massive amount of the young people who are going to have to live through what's happened voted to stay. We're suffering the consequences of an older generation that have decided our fate for us. We discussed the shock on the morning of twenty fourth of June when the Brexit result was confirmed. It was devastating news, she says. It was this weird feeling of emptiness. Do you want me to keep going? Coco: Yep. Mm-hmm. ashby: I remember when I woke up that day and I checked Twitter and Instagram and people were posting pictures the European Union flag with one of the stars falling off. I was like, I can't believe this has happened. I had to check and make sure that someone wasn't playing a trick. It's like people from all over the world will now no longer be able to come to London and chase their dreams. Wow, that's so true. I really relate to that shit. Coco: Yeah. And I just think like for a young artist who's like t twenty, twenty-one, to be open about your political views, you know, kind of at the very start ashby: Uh-huh. Coco: of your kind of, you know, global career is fascinating. And so like I think I've been just interested in her because we're c an authenticity is coming through as well as a confidence and kind of clear headedness around like who she is and what she stands for. ashby: Yeah. Coco: Now I did skip something that I do want to go back to. I have been thinking about, you know, why do I love Dualipa's Instagram posts? Why am I going nom nom nom to them? And and who else do I feel this way about? And I feel this way about fan, you know, our fave on the pod, Sierra Miller. And ashby: yeah. Coco: so I thought I'd show you a couple of posts from her just to see like there is something that is an intersection between these two. And their style of posting. So this is ashby: okay. So here's Sierra the picture of herself at an elevator, I think. Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: just a picture of a beautiful pool, landscape, yeah. sandy feet at the beach. some beers and some charcuterie and a thing of a deck of Uno cards, so a nice getaway vacay. Coco: Yeah, and kind of similar I think to the aesthetic of like the Dua Lipa food photos that we're seeing where it's like a little bit if yeah, like it's definitely like curated and planned. ashby: It's it's more like I wanna yeah, it's more like I wanna remember this. This was this was so this was so perfect for this moment, you know. Yeah, yeah. Poor pool, people Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. More pool. This is below deck. This is I know for ex this is that it this is Aisha. This is the ashby: I see. Okay. Coco: Summer House below deck crossover episode. So I also know that they're in the Mediterranean. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Some guy. ashby: Goddess. Like people doing shots. Yeah. Yeah. here's here's some guy playing Uno with her and they're sweaty by the pool. And Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: it just a nice beach scene. Yeah. Here's a little Coco: Yeah, like little cat. ashby: street cat. Yeah, very cute. And then Coco: Just a big big old photo dump. And then there's ashby: yeah, and then just a stunning I don't want to call it a thirst trap, but it's something. There's something. Yeah. Coco: It's something. It's something. It's hot. It's it's spicy. ashby: Yeah, and then just it's like it's like the hottest person you know but who is still very like down to earth and just wants to share their vacation photos with you, you know? Coco: And that's why I'm like, these are just like h the hottest girls I'm rooting for. I don't know how else to put it. ashby: Yeah. I feel the same way. That's so true. Coco: And I think that there's something about both Dua Liba and Sierra Miller that is A love of having a really great time and like being ashby: Yes there. Coco: really fun, having a laugh with like also like a kind of core of like sensitivity and like a love of art. There's ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: so Sierra just did a you know kind of brand collab post around like what books are you bringing with you to summer house. Now again, I don't think she's literally bringing books with her to summer house. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: but she chose she chose ashby: Normal people. Coco: Normal people and a James Baldwin book. ashby: Love that. Coco: Yes. And you're like, those are some classy choices. Wonderful. Wonderful. All right. ashby: So true. And and just the fact that she used that opportunity to like shine Coco: No ashby: light on these types of books, you know, she could have said anything, you know, she could have said, I'm into these weird romance novels and that would have been fine, but it's they're intentional about what they use different opportunities to share. Coco: Exactly. so there has been so much like of the over the past, yeah, like a past year, but like I it really even feels more recent than that. Leading up to the wedding and post wedding, but like I feel like especially leading up to the wedding of people talking about dua lipa maxing. Like, I wanna live like dua lipa. Dua Lipa is lives Dua Lipa's always on vacation, like that kind of content. so maybe you could do just read a read a couple of these guys. ashby: Sure. I should say one thing, which is that my my favorite perfume is Dua Lipa collab. Coco: Mm-hmm. What? ashby: So so yeah, she's a spokesperson for YSL's Libre. And I forgot that she was Coco: Amazing. ashby: like the face of that campaign when it came out and it was one of my earliest expensive present requests from from husband. So now I have a whole a whole bottle. Yeah, that's that's hers. So I would just like to say at least I Coco: My God. That's wonderful. ashby: smell like Dua Lipa. Coco: There we go. ashby: Okay. So here's someone saying, every time I ask for something, God doubles it and gives it to Dua Lipa. I love that. When I want when I say I want a hot girl summer, the hot girl I'm specifically referring to is Dua Lipa. Yes. I need Dua Lipa's full and detailed step-by-step tutorial about life. True. Congratulations to Dualipa and Duo Lipo. Coco: I just thought you would like that last one. ashby: I do like that. I do like that. It's cute. Coco: Yes, now I did get into the Substacks and I did like try to look for what are people writing about Dua Lipa and pull a couple of excerpts from people who had like just high engagement on those posts. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: or kind of those, yeah, I guess it's an article or whatever, posts and substack. so I thought I could have you read a little bit, it's a little bit of a longer excerpt here. this is from the Internet Digest from May 2026 by someone named Kashvi. and the title is The Art of Being Interesting Without Being Available, featuring Dua Lipa. It's a good title, right? ashby: I love that title. Yeah. Coco: So this is a little bit long. I'll scroll when we get to the next part. And I'll just mention there's a couple of like I've kind of hodgepodged a couple of paragraphs together. So you know, this is not a direct i i I've never I haven't changed anything the person wrote, but I did cut some stuff out, is what I should say. ashby: Okay, great. Coco: And and i I I think I I say we're I wanted to share these with a tiny bit of like an asterisk where there's something very cool about looking at any, you know, Celebrity and thinking like we're talking about what is what do we like about them, what's aspirational about them, what's like different about them from other maybe like celebrities or pop stars that we see. And also as you read these things, it does feel you can feel that maybe like tender feeling of young women looking at someone and wanting to have their life. That ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: as someone who's almost 40, I have like, that's that's hard being a girl. Yeah. ashby: Okay, so it says there's a specific kind of woman I find myself gravitating towards becoming lately. She has a career that excites her. She has a partner that she is genuinely in love with. She travels constantly and well for work and for leisure. She reads extensively. She has taste that has been developed through experience rather than being performative. Taste that comes from actually going to restaurants, finishing books, actually walking through cities instead of just photographing the corner of it that looks good on an Instagram story. She doesn't overshare, she doesn't undershare. She gives you exactly enough to make you curious and never quite enough to feel like you know her. That woman for me and a lot of women in their twenties right now is Dua Lipa. Dua lets you Yeah, really Coco: Hm well put. ashby: true. Dua lets you into her world through the places she eats and the books she reads and the record stores she visits on days off rather than through the details of her heartbreaks or her therapy sessions or her family drama. Service 95 is a curation platform which makes you feel like you're getting to know her mind, what she finds beautiful, what she values, how she moves through the world without ever feeling like you're getting more than she wants to give you. I want to be Dua Lipa. I don't mean I want to be a pop star, I mean I want to move through the world the way she seems to, with a combination of ambition and ease, career and love and travel and reading and friendships, and a fiance who clearly adores her, all of it happening at once without any of it looking like It's coming at the expense of the rest. I know that's a curated image. I know real life is messier than an Instagram grid. But the aspiration itself tells you something about what women in their twenties right now want, which is all of it simultaneously and not sequentially, which may be a trap, but we will talk about that another time. Coco: Yeah. ashby: Well, can I just say I think women in their thirties also want that too? Coco: Yes, yes. yeah, yeah. And I think I think that we there has been this, you know, pop because of the the fiance and now husband of it all, right? I think that and I like to joke Callum Tur Turner's real job is looking hot next to Dua Lipa. And like I think that's his number one role and that the acting is secondary. but I I don't think you even like need the man part for the rest of it. And I do really like this c thought process around her curating things and presenting and I think j being genuine about like engaging in, you know, the books that she reads, which she's not faking because she there's evidence that she's not faking that. that does feel, you know. I understand why it connects with people right now. When everything feels ephemeral, when everything feels like you're just like scrolling, when everything feels like, you know, can consuming I love my reality TV shows, but like you're consuming it just to consume. You know, I think that there is something that like people tap into where it's communicating, you know, whether that's real or not, it's communicating something that feels real, meaningful, something that you can grab onto. And Dua Lipa. in terms of this, like restaurants and the travel that she does. She did a partnership with Google, and we can have our asterisk around that, but partnership with Google called like Dua's Lists, and it's lists of like the her favorite record stores around the world, her favorite wine bars around the world. I will be going to Australia soon. And I told my husband, we're gonna go to the wine bar that Dua Lipa put in her list that's in Melbourne. ashby: I love that. That's so cool. Coco: And they're, you know, in her list you see like her thoughts about the place and their photos like from her iPhone. Yes. so kind of it tap still kind of tapping into that like feeling of like authenticity and curation. And I also kind of like what the the author is getting at. And I did see this in a couple of other pieces here that She's tapping into the things that she finds meaningful. And yes, she gives us like a version of her life, but it's not really like the the friendship drama or celebrity beefs that we like often get from other pop stars. And my hope in today's conversation is not to say like Dua Lipa does fame the right way, other other women do fame the wrong way, like or anything like that. but I do think there's like a healthy model that's kind of like baked in here a little bit. What are you what were your takeaways? ashby: A little bit I'm wondering what structural things allow Dua Lipa to do live like live life like this because of Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: what you said earlier, where people on Reddit are watching for new music, right? At least what I've seen is that other artists, what they end up sharing, you know, like Chapel Roan or Coco: Uh-huh. ashby: even Taylor Swift, or I think recently this is like not. quite the same, but I saw on one of my pop culture podcasts, they were talking about Megan Trainer canceling her tour. She has Coco: Mm. ashby: just had a second baby, but I think the unspoken thing there is that her tour didn't sell out and it isn't worth the money because Coco: Good one. ashby: it costs so much for artists to tour. So like what is allowing her to have this free willing life right now where she's not under doesn't seem to be facing the same pressures from studios and tour managers. 'Cause you you hear artists talk about that, the pressure that they feel that all these people, who work on their tour or who work on their album are like dependent on you for their income. And yet she Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ashby: has this time to like read books and sit in the sun and and that's obviously not just wealth. It's it's like it's something else. Like how has she been able to carve out this space and time and not not be on this treadmill exactly? Coco: Yeah. I don't have an I definitely don't have an answer for that. but I will say she did tour for a year and a half very like solidly. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: so she came off her radical optimism tour, where she did ninety two cities, I think, ashby: Wow. Coco: ninety-two performances, maybe not ninety-two cities, but ninety two performances. and I think was truly traveling for a year and a half doing that, in addition to like doing Her her almost full-time job ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: in her her platform service 95, you know, and running this book club podcast, which we'll talk about and I can explain a little bit too. So I also think that there's something in the aspiration, aspirational photos that we see on Instagram and like the meme Dua Lipa is always on vacation that's a tiny bit of a lie. you know, she is doing fashion. partnerships, she's doing brand partnerships, she's like a model basically. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: and and writing music and in the studio, which like those studio shots are mixed into those those Instagram dumps or whatever you want to call them. but I think that this is a person who has a lot of like discipline is such a like an icky word, but like there has a lot of that is a very ambitious person who has a lot a high work ethic and so the vacation parts of it are like taken seriously too a little bit. ashby: Yeah, I get that. I I guess it's it really it really does come down to what she chooses to show you because Coco: Mm. ashby: it's not her I don't know. everybody's experience of this is totally valid, but you could imagine someone on even that schedule making a post that's like really long from the notes app being like, you know, just so everybody knows it's kind of exhausting, I need to take a little break for a little while. Coco: Uh-huh. ashby: to be present and not be posting all the time. there's just a lot of pressures that come with this. Like you could see somebody saying, I need I find even this tiring, but she's Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: not showing you like the inside of the boring publicist office meeting and then, you know, or or like after a long day of doing fashion stuff. She's only showing you the things that she finds fun and meaningful and beautiful. So yeah, you do get the impression that she treats her whole life like a fun vacation. Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: But she's not showing she's not showing you the things that are tiring. And that's not to say she's not being authentic, but I think what vulnerability looks like for her is just different, you know. So I'm sure she does Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: have moments where she feels tired and, you know, maybe it would have been more fun for her to go to a different city, but she has to go to this city to do this fashion commitment that she has, right? But she finds herself there and she's like, well, I'm gonna try this new restaurant and make notes about it and share that with people. So she's sort of like Curating and choosing versions of her making the best of all of this versus, you know, the grueling Coco: Yeah. Something that ashby: part of it. Coco: seemed really grueling. I mean, so and we'll we'll get into it, but she went she just went to the premiere of One Night Only. So with Callum Turner, she went to the the movie premiere. Twelve hours later, so that's in like LA, 12 hours later, she's in Pristina Kosovo at the Sunny Hill Festival, the festival that she and her dad kind of spearhead. in Kosovo, the music festival. And she's like parting with her family. And so there's like a level of me that's like if I get six hours of sleep, like I'm not gonna be fun let alone doing two major events, like where there's in theory no time to sleep. I'm sure she has the best private plane, like a bed situation, but ashby: I was gonna say what we're not seeing is she's on the private plane and she has a lifestyle nurse giving her an IV of electrolytes and Coco: Yeah. ashby: you know, there's definitely things that her lifestyle allows for, but I think what people are actually after is the way that she makes everything look fun without the cost of how tired it could be to be that engaged in all different areas of your life. Coco: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. ashby: It looks like each of these things truly gives her energy and not like it depletes Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: her. And that's the real fantasy, is that you'd actually have the energy to do everything you're interested in. Coco: Yeah, that's so sh because I even in this post, or if it wasn't in this one, it's other ones where they're like, we understand that this is like wealth. Like you don't have not everyone has time to read a book. People have like jobs and like children and whatever it might be. but she looks like she can. now I did go back and listen to her Los Culturistas interview ashby: Yeah. Coco: from 2024 as well. So a lot of like a s a lot of her publicity came from 2024 when she was doing like the radical optimism tour and when the album came out. very cute because Matt Rogers just like loved the Radical Optimism album so much. And so it was like really like hypey, like they're just really excited. but also they get into Bo and Yang being overworked and exhausted, and Dua Lipa kind of being like I similarly am always I every minute is scheduled. Like my Google calendar is like block, block, block, block, block. And she's like, I like it that way. So if I have an empty day, I'm kind of getting like anxiety. So there's like something under here that is a little bit like there's there's a person who wants to know what their plan is. There's a person who is like always working a little bit. ashby: Yeah, that's true. And some of that is like how things hit you with where you're at in your life. Like maybe to her it's genuinely so exciting right now that it's generative and and everything. And like I'm sure Bowen has had phases of that too. I think we all have. And then I think we should all be cautiously prepared that there might be times where She might need to evolve that. Like she there could be a part where she hits she hits a wall and is human like the rest of us and is like, I actually need to take some time off or and and do some restorativeness. It turns out being busy is kind of a coping thing. Or, you know, there could be there could be all kinds of stuff going on there. I just always I always think that because of this I am not I am not saying this and maybe we'll even cut this, but like some people with bipolar will tell you that. that when they're up, that's the high that's like they feel like they are having the time of their lives and other people look at that as like this incredible superhuman thing and then later they take a dive and then they're like, please no one should admire me when I'm doing superhuman things 'cause it's actually not good for anyone or my body. So I never wanna like Coco: Yeah. ashby: to over aspirationalize. It's like both you don't want to judge people when they're low cause you don't know what they're going through, but you also don't want to like over identify with people that you're like, Man, I wish I could be like that 'cause you also don't know what could be motivating that for sure. Coco: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I think I mean, I know we're talking about Dua Lipa, but Bowen Yang talks about it he has talked about it many times on the podcast. It's been like a ashby: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Coco: recurring theme, not around like bipolar, but he, you know, but around he was filming Wicked and ashby: Over schedule, yeah, yeah. Coco: doing SNL at the same time. And he based ashby: Which is crazy. Coco: he had like a mental breakdown because of it. And he ashby: For sure. Coco: was having like dissociation, like d dis what's it called? Where you don't feel like yourself. Depersonalization. Yeah. ashby: Mm. Depersonalization. Yeah. Coco: so there's a real risk here to the the overscheduled of it all. I think we have to also keep in mind, like you had asked or kind of pondered, like, well, what's keeping the the Dua Leepa economy in in ashby: Yeah. Coco: the works, right? While we also have, you know, her beautiful Instagram is like generating ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: money. Like it's she's not doing many brand partnerships in the Instagram itself. But like that's also like an avenue for the fashion collabs that she has. you know, that makes her her 88 million followers makes her a more valuable asset to any other partnerships that she does. Like, and, you know, she had this big wedding. I'm sure that there was a lot of like yes, spent a lot of money on it, but also like money that's generated for like a celebrity wedding like that too. Yeah. ashby: Yeah, I forgot who did her outfit. Was it Farragamo? Coco: L let's get into the fashion of it all. Here you go. ashby: I think her wedding outfit Chaparelli. That's what it was. Coco: You I was I had it pulled up. You got there first. ashby: And I might be saying it wrong. I think people say it sc Skype Skyparelli or Chaparelli, right? but yeah, yeah, I knew it was Chaparelli, I forgot. Coco: Yeah, I don't know how to pronounce it. this you will love this Substack post by Faslina Yaha. ashby: Love Coco: but will you read this little how this little blurb from from her for her from her Substack? ashby: I wrote about Staparelli recently, so I will not go too deep here, but I will say this. Dua has worn the house to the Golden Globes, Oscar's After Parties, Her Radical Optimism Tour, and Front Row at their couture shows. The relationship runs deep. When you have when you have worn a house through every significant moment of your career, you wear them to the most significant moments of your life too. Vaselina Yaha's substack. Love that. Love that, love that. she has the Patego Veneta gown too. my god, that's stunning. Stunning. Yeah. Coco: Yes. Right, right. This is a really fun I'll put everything in our substack, but I will link to this substack that's really kind of going in deep on Dualipa's wedding looks. You know, it hadn't I hadn't quite noticed. So she's recreating this Bianca Jagger like wedding suit is ashby: Mm. Coco: what she's doing in that like more, you know, demure kind of private wedding in London before they did their big blowout wedding in Italy. but she's also wearing this like snake necklace. There's a sh ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: there's it's never a there's there's always like a tiny like little twist that is ashby: Yeah. Coco: sexy, a little dangerous. and I don't quite know how to maybe you'll have more thoughts on this because I think you are more invested in, you know, like f the f fashion and you know dresses and all of that. But I think that there's something very interesting about Duolipa's kind of aesthetic in that it is very sexy, you know. With with always a feeling that it is not like for the male gaze, like men will be very attracted to Duolipa, like she's very sexy. but there it there's something to the way that she's using sexuality. I don't know quite how to if I'm using this the right way, that just feels maybe I'll just say different that I'm connecting to. Yeah, yeah. ashby: She's just she's just a little bit punk rock. That's that's it. She's she has like a little bit of a punk edge to her style. She she favors Coco: Okay. ashby: like a cropped motorcycle jacket. it's clear someone has like worked with her on what sh or maybe she's found this herself, but like what shapes look good on her and she Coco: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. ashby: likes she favors sharper shapes rather than like softer ones. I mean the bottega vanetta gown is a little bit more more soft and in that in that way, but like Yeah, she'll she always has like a sh like a a tailored or angular jacket or lapels with her suits and things like that. So Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: yeah, she's just always she I think it's because she has very strong features Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: that you couldn't you couldn't wrap this woman in in like toll by her at her neck. It would not look right. Do you know what I mean? There's a Coco: Right. Yeah. ashby: kind of body type that's like leans more there's a body type and like features that lean more romantic, and I think of like Sabrina Carpenter. Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ashby: for those looks. But no, Doa is very like edgy, sort of a little bit avant garde, a little bit a little Coco: That's that's a good word for it, huh. ashby: bit a little bit yeah, when I say avant garde, I'm also th thinking of things like space. I know that like that was part of her levitating album's aesthetic, you Coco: Yeah. ashby: know? But she also leans into the past, like vintage things. So there were some of the sounds on there on that album were very you know, Olivia Newton John. like kind Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: of vintage influenced. so yeah, I I think of her style as like classic, but avant garde and a little bit a little bit of an edge. And when you say not for the male gaze, yeah, it's because she's not she's not she's not like emphasizing she's not doing like a Jessica Rabbit thing necessarily, you know? But yeah. Coco: And and it'll still be like dr her wedding dress is cut down to just the tippy top of ass and I would too if I were her. ashby: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's very they're they're sexy, but they're not revealing, if that makes sense, or they're not they're it's not leaning toward like towards slutty. It's more Coco: Yeah. ashby: it's more it more accentuates her, if that it's like it's Coco: Yeah. ashby: more it feels more like she's showing off for the world. Then like she's trying to appeal to men, if that if that's what it is. It really, it really feels like Bottego Veneto was designing this dress and she was like, I'm sorry, look at my back. It can't be contained. You couldn't put fabric over that. Please, let it loose, let it out, let it breathe. Okay. She deserves to live. Yeah. Coco: Yes. Well, and I had shown you this picture while you were quoting her quote from twenty sixteen, but maybe you could like describe what she ashby: Yeah. Coco: looks like back then when she was like twenty. ashby: So her hair is much darker. She's doing them a much darker eyebrow and l and eyeliner too. Coco: She's ashby: she has like she's giving like the peace sign. She has the kind of aggressive I I can't see the whole whole photo. I thought it was cropped. I thought it was cropped. She's wearing Coco: Well, I think she's giving you the finger. No, yeah, you can't but she's I wonder I can't make it bigger, but ashby: like a diamond choker, which is kind of a a little bit of like a punk riot girl aesthetic. She's also wearing a camouflage, what looks like fatigues. Coco: Mm-hmm, ashby: Or some kind of Coco: mm-hmm. ashby: army jacket. And then she has the really pointed, aggressive, like metallic nails. I'm so glad that she has softened some of this over the years. Clearly, she has the best people. but yeah, I think her eyebrows are one of the most recognizable features that she has now. And it and here she's really leaning into the the 2016 of it all. One thing I was gonna say is is Coco: wanna talk about the eyebrows. We gotta talk about the eyebrows. Yes. ashby: disco. Her stuff is very influenced by disco. Coco: Yes, yes. ashby: And that inherently has a little bit of like a space or futuristic element to it. Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: so metallics, she's really drawn to like a darker color palette with lots of metallics. and I remember seeing this post that was like, Other people need to get on the disco reinvention train because Dua Lipa baby girl can't be out here doing it all by herself. And I think that's so true. Yeah. Coco: I so I pulled up a photo from her Instagram just so we could take a look at the eyebrows. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: As a person who, you know, like like all of us millennials who overplucked as a youth, I'm I've been using a serum to regrow my eyebrows. And ashby: Nice. Coco: I I every little baby hair of eyebrow, I'm just like You go Glencoco. I'm so excited for you. I feel delighted. I feel like a person who's like curating my my vegetable garden, but it's just my ashby: Yeah. Coco: eyebrows. I can't believe that a little serum works. Obviously, I know that we've like come a long way in terms of like hair regrowth technology. I have heard people be like, well, if you use it, you have to like always use it. And then I also heard people say, like, that's more for like male pattern baldness and like less so if you if you damage the cuticle yourself, you can like heal it. But her eyebrows are You know, dangerous for me to look at. This is a this is a standard I'll never achieve. but also, yeah, the powerful, powerful, beautiful eyebrows. ashby: Yeah, she has a very like she has a very like sultry makeup style, Coco: Yes. ashby: you know. so for sure. But she Coco: And he ashby: she is a stunning obviously she is like a stunningly beautiful woman, but I Coco: Yes. ashby: never think that she's overly made up, you know. I I I Coco: Nope. Mm-hmm. ashby: I know that there's a whole technique that is no makeup makeup, you know? for sure. But I I always feel like she really works with what her natural beauty is rather than working against it or trying to like cover it up. I it it feels very like Yeah. Yeah. Coco: She goes for more of like a sun-kissed look now. and I think there's something that's like, yes, okay. If you become a a pop star with a ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: supposed net worth of $200 million, you you can afford the best in the business in terms of, you know, the artists that you work with, makeup artists, fashion, you know, whoever it might be, stylists. and also I just want to say, I think there's something that is. The natural glow up that most women go through from 20 to 30. We fetishize girls who are 20. You know, like I'm saying, like they're women, but I'm not trying to demean them, but we fetishize that kind of youth for like the reasons that are fucked up about patriarchy. But women, in my opinion, become more beautiful as they age. And so part of what when you look back at to when she's like really young, yes, there's like a, I don't know quite my my style is like the makeup's like too too bright white and then too or you know, blue or whatever it ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: might be. that I certainly also did when I was that age. but I think you also just see someone who like became an adult and like that's like the attractiveness of that too. ashby: Yeah, and I you know, my friend used to always say that what happens is that you learn how to do your eyebrows and that good hair is done by heat styling. And so the difference Coco: What? ashby: is before that you thought maybe you could get good hair some other way or that you didn't know how to do your eyebrows, and you were using like NYX from the CVS. Wrong. Y you need you have to get yeah, it's wrong. Coco: Yeah, yeah. Wrong. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ashby: Once you learn how to do your eyebrows and how to heat style your hair, it's a game changer. But yeah, you learn those things with time and you learn those things with like I think I think things are happening at the same time. You're also seeing a person become more confident in their career. They start to feel like certainly as she's like grown in her career, she can actually make more of these choices. What brand choice what brand she wants to appeal to her that she wants to partner with, what like fashion and what causes are interesting to her. But I think early in your career for everyone, you're kind of a little bit trying to feel out who you need to be to Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: meet other people's standards. Coco: Mm. ashby: but it looks like she's really like come into her own. You just see a really like confident person who's like comfortable in everything she's doing and wearing. Coco: Yes, and I'm glad you mentioned that, kind of meeting others' needs. ashby: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Coco: So Dua Lipa is like in if you Google Dua Lipa, but also if you go around and ask your friends, what do you know about Dua Lipa? People will say, she can't dance, right? She she's not she's not a good performer. These are some of the things that will come up. And this ashby: interesting. I've never heard that. I I guess I never thought to watch. I always thought of her as like a belter, like a like Adele. Like you would never say Adele can't dance, right? Coco: Well, first of all I I was also talking that we'll get into the dance not dance situation, but ashby: okay. Coco: but I was talking to a friend about that and they just it was a a straight guy and he was like, You know what? It's kinda shitty that like they have to be good at like multiple jobs and I was like, Thank you. That's so true. ashby: Yeah. But also on the same in the same front, like there are plenty of music artists whose music is fine, but it's really their whole performance is what you show up for. Like I I immediately think of like Jennifer Lopez, a much better dancer, I think, than singer. But that's not to say I don't like a JLo song. It's just she sings the way she sings and is a good dancer. Coco: Waiting for tonight. ashby: Yeah. But it's just no point in compare in comparing those things, you know? But but she makes the music that Coco: Right. Or even like a Britney Spears, you know, or even like a Taylor Swift, which is like a ashby: Yeah, yeah. She makes the music that she makes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Coco: different lane. Like the reasons why people like her is different. but this is okay. So famously Dua Lipa performed at the twenty eighteen Brit Awards. And I'm just gonna show you like a couple seconds of it. I'm not gonna show you much. And this is a and then I'll I'll tell you what the viral commentary on this was. So this is where this traces back to largely. Okay, so what would your reaction to the performance be? Or what are you ashby: Well, look, I Coco: seeing maybe what are you seeing in the performance? Yeah. ashby: Here here let me let me just tell you something. One of my one of my gross favorite things is I love watching music videos of like music experts giving background on music performances. I love I love when it's like vocal artist watches Justin Bieber for the first time and they're like, Well, he's actually hitting a B flat here when you know, it they've clearly changed the register for him. I do I have any fucking idea what they're talking about? No. But this what happens when you're a K-pop fan. You start, you just get you all of a sudden are absorbed in like music theory because you just want to see people validate your faves. And so there's a whole stream of the YouTube economy that is geared toward this, right? And what I can tell you immediately is that this is one of those videos where they take out the sound editing so that you can only hear her vocals. So there's people Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: whose job who like know how to do this, they take the sound from performances. And they take out all of the production value that you would hear if you were watching this on TV, so that you can actually hear what her only her vocals would sound like. And what I hear is a person who is she is trying to hit the notes and make it sound like the record, but she has a very like deep register and Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: like a powerful, like I said, belting voice. Which is very hard to maintain. And so even Beyoncé will not necessarily like belt while she's dancing. It'll Coco: What? ashby: be like sing, dance, or do some of the lighter things, and they'll put backing track while they're dancing. So you can hear her breathing. You can see her trying to like maintain her diaphragm while she's Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: like moving around the stage. At the same time, these types of performances, they're supposed to be like bombastic and like produced and they're live. So they always have tons of production value and essentially distracting elements, which is because it is so much work to do something like this in a live setting, you know, and if something goes wrong, you know, it's the you're screwed. And because these are often like, you know, award shows or whatever, these aren't places where people are playing all the time. They don't do as much sound checks and stuff. So you you will the most opportunity you will get of hearing a person not maybe at their best is at these types of things because it's like a one night only performance where they've gotten one sound check the week before. Coco: Wow, look at you sneaking in Callum Turner's title of his new movie just right in there. ashby: that's right. I didn't even realize I did that. Incredible. Good for me. A little extra, a little extra, you know, free promo to our 37 followers for Duolipo. Coco: Yeah. ashby: Mr. Duolipo, you're welcome. So anyway, I'm just like, I have a lot of latitude when I hear when I watch a music video of someone doing a live performance like this, especially if it's in the middle of their other tour or whatever. but in terms of like what I actually see is a normal thing that I see, which is a person who is a singer embedded in a performance that is a lot of backup dancers. And Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: ev I've my god, this is I'm in too deep. You've you've really you've really cracked something for me here. Okay. Coco: This is I was like I was like, Ashby, you don't need to prepare for this episode because you will have thoughts. ashby: Because I've been prepared my whole life. Okay, anyway, I've I love watching dance shows. I love dance competition shows, I love Coco: Yes. ashby: music competition shows. But one of the things is when you have a performer and then you have backup dancers, the backup dancers have to know exactly how hard to dance. They don't want to outshine the star, but they do still need to bring the energy and look professional. Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: And these girls are hitting their marks. And they're hitting them right next to Dua Lipa, who is trying to hold her notes. Dua Lipa is obviously stunningly beautiful and looks very hot on stage. But but I can see a person noticing the contrast between someone trying to catch their breath and about a hundred backup dancers on stage next to her and she's just trying to like there's so many that Coco: There's so many of them on stage. huh. ashby: it's truly overwhelming. And she's trying to just like keep the energy up and convey the emotion and the vibe of the song. And yeah. Coco: And walk up and down like set pieces, yeah. ashby: And that's what they want, right? Because they'll have these live audiences that'll get like lottery tickets that are down there in the pit. And you want to actually traverse the stage. You can't just stand still necessarily because then people don't feel like they got the show. They only got to see one side of it. And then you want dynamics and movement for a TV audience too. You want to see the person move around, you want to see some camera work or whatever. But But yeah, I just see what looks like a person who is mostly a vocalist. trying to do whatever they need to do for this routine for this temporary performance that they're doing. This isn't this probably isn't her troupe that she normally tours with or whatever. So, you know, I think it's I think it's a B plus on all dimensions, but I also don't fault her for that because I kind of know more about what goes into it. Very empathetic, yeah. Coco: So y you're much more empathetic to than the audience was. So she somebody put I i if this went viral. Like it's still brought up. She still ashby: Crazy. Coco: answers for it. And people wrote somebody wrote, Go girl, give us nothing. ashby: That's my favorite and I still use that. I am doing that currently at my new job and I use it as an actual mantra. Coco: So that is something that she's like had to like live with. I would like to say she would have been 22 years old when this happened. Shh. ashby: Please. Coco: So there is a somebody who's this is their first major album that this is like the major single that came from. She's on this like brand new platform. I would not. That's so overwhelming. and I think you're absolutely right. So you I think when I look at that performance, I see someone who's really concentrating. And not like thinking that ashby: Yes, that's exactly right. Coco: they they seem a little stiff because they're trying to do all of the things at the same time. You know, so they're not ashby: Yes. Coco: serving face, right? Like in the same way that Sabrina Carpenter does. Sabrina Carpenter also like a Disney kid. Like that's like a different, you know, or or Disney or Nickelodeon ashby: Yes. There's a different there's a different person. Coco: or wherever whichever one. But like, yeah, different kind of mo Dua Lipa came up through s singing vide posting videos on YouTube, you know, because of her vocals and cut doing covers and stuff like that. ashby: And if you watch if you watch any of those shows, you know, you watch like X Factor or The Voice, there are people that have great voices, but that cannot multitask. And you'll see that that's part of their training is like how can you use the whole stage? How can you incorporate effects like pyro you know, pyro and dancers without getting distracted? You know, there's little things that you don't think about, but like hearing how you sound in your ear thing versus how you know, you you sound outside of it. And if anything goes wrong with the track or with your earpiece, it can totally screw up their performance. Plus, just small stuff that maybe even a theater a person who's not a theater kid wouldn't know. Like she's probably been told many times not to turn her back to the camera or the audience. But you've got cameras on multiple sides of you and also audiences on multiple sides of you. So how do you always make sure that you don't turn the wrong way? There's a ton I I agree with you. I see a person that is concentrating, but I also can see the constellation of things that they would need to concentrate on. And the one thing that she has to know she has to do is hit the notes. Coco: Yeah. And I will just add that I love the video for New Rules and they're recreating the music video to some extent, like thematically, and part of the video is looking sad. So she's also doing a kind of acting in a certain way that on stage reads different than like on a film. ashby: Yes, that's true. Yeah. Coco: so so it is like a subtler thing that she's kind of doing that then doesn't resonate at like a music award show. Yep. ashby: Mm hmm. But you only know these things by doing them. So if this is her first major one of these, then like that's the I mean, that's the only way. Yeah. Can I just say that the K pop fandom about this stuff is so insane that they they have like favorite cameramen. And if a cameraman like cuts their fave off like or catches them in an awkward moment or focuses on a different member, they will they will go so crazy in the comments. They will be like, Can you believe cameraman B doing my fave dirt, doing my freaking bias dirty like that? Like they, they're watching. They're they're like, who edited this? What idiot edited this? Like they are insane. Coco: I do fear deep fan communities. ashby: But I'm just saying they're holding everyone accountable. Coco: It's like they're it's like they're mad at the ref. ashby: Well, in a way, but they're also like, don't this is gonna make my fave look bad and it's like some of these r that's Coco: Well it's kinda caso sweet. ashby: the thing is that they're like then people are gonna use this to say they're not as good as they actually are. They're not showing them in the best light, and they have a real attitude of like everyone that goes into production needs to be held accountable for how the how the stars come off. And it's not fair for the stars to take all of the backlash for if a performance was lackluster or not. So I just think that's Coco: Yes. ashby: nice. Coco: I love that. Okay, so we're jumping ahead. We're jumping to the future. ashby: Let's do it. Coco: We're going to do Alipa's Live from Mexico City full concert. I'm just showing you levitating. and I think we'll have to we can watch as much of it as you'd like We can't play a whole song. We'll get in trouble. ashby: Got it. Let's see it. Let's see Levitating, which ever since we talked about has been bouncing around in my head. It's very catchy. Coco: I was I have had a problem sleeping this past week because ashby: Yeah. Coco: duo lipo lyrics are running through my brain, which also happened when we were doing the shibusi episode. ashby: I'd say. Coco: the Live from Mexico concert is fucking so fun to ashby: I love Coco: ride a Peloton to. So recommend the whole thing. I actually still have some that I I'm because I can't Peloton for two hours straight that I haven't watched. Yeah, but I'm I love I love every part. So this is my favorite song from like the first half of the concert, like the just performance, but there's many more. ashby: Wow, she looks beautiful. Wow. So fun. Love that. Well, she's clearly grown a lot since that performance. Coco: Yeah. Wanna tell the people about a little a little bit of what's going on. ashby: Okay, so she comes out looking straight up like 1980s Cher in the Turnback Time video. So she's got the black, like you know, butt cheek teddy on with like the garter and everything, and it's very sexy and cute, but Yeah. Mm-hmm. Coco: Like it's like all like sparkly, like it's like the the the moonlight, so she's in all black but it's like glittery and then there's like stars behind her. Mm hmm. Yeah. ashby: Yeah, they've really worked they've really worked out the effects on the screen behind her. And, you know, this is this is what happens when you get like a good team. So they have figured out what choreography is reasonable with the demands of the song, which for I'll gotta be honest, once you see it, every single female pop star does this. It's the sexy walk. The sexy walk you can do while singing. It needs to be the basis of the choreography. And then everything else is arms, because arms don't take as much from you. And then if you can't do anything else, do the arms, don't do the arms. If you, if you don't do anything else, just stay on the beat. Don't worry about the arms. Coco: Ha ha. ashby: but because yeah, like, and she's so much more confident here. That's the main thing. And I think of two things. I think of Charlie XCX, who I have seen live, who can absolutely keep the energy up while singing and like is constantly on the beat with her with her hips the entire time. Like it's just, but that comes from like, she comes up from like the rave generation. And so, so she has like, she has like a different exposure to that. And then of course you think of Chapel Ron, who's like, yeah, I had to learn to run and sing at the same time. She like did a whole summer training where she learned to run and sing at the same time because it's its own separate skill. and then this is the big song from the album. So you have to make it two things. You have to make it like Fun for the audience and it sounds recognizable, but it also needs to be clearly a live version. So they have parts where she's c sort of ad-libbing or doing something a little bit different or where the music falls away. and it's like it all comes together. It's like a fun, confident performance. The energy is there. She doesn't have as many backup dancers. She has a solid five to seven, or maybe nine. Yeah. Boy group. Girl group. Yeah. So she's Coco: And there's like girl group, boy group. Girl group, boy group, yeah. Mm-hmm. ashby: So you're getting contrast and variety, even if actually Dua Lipa is basically sexy walk to the back, sexy walk to the front, sexy walk to the back, sexy walk to the front. But the audience experience of it is she's hitting her marks, she's having fun. There's enough variety in the music because she's emphasizing the live sounds of the bass so that you're getting you you see Coco: Mm-hmm. We see the band a lot, yeah. ashby: the band, and there's moments where the production falls away and it's just her a cappella sort of or like ad-libbing. And She's practiced it and she looks great and she's serving and so Yeah. Yeah. So she's having fun. Coco: This is performance ninety two of the ninety two. So, and and there's so much personality that kind of is coming through as well. Yeah. ashby: So true. Yeah. And she's feeding off of the crowd. That's another thing is like if the crowd has bought tickets and they're there to see you, and it's your show that you've done multiple times and you've had like, you know, you've had time to prepare and perfect and all of that stuff. That feels different than an award show audience that is, you know, a lottery that's there to see lots of different people. I think that I could I can imagine a big difference there. But yeah, she looks great. She's she's nailing it. I'm I always think that. You know, artists like her or like Adele, they they will sound better if they're just standing still. So if you're just if you're just there for that, and I'm sure that there are parts in the show where it's just her on a stool doing one l so you can hear her real vocal range or she can concentrate on it. so if you're there for that, like you'll have you're getting something else. But if you are doing a big stadium tour, you gotta give the people something, not nothing. Coco: I mean, there's literally pyrotechnics going off. Yes. ashby: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I would say that it is still it's there's so much there's energy, it's there's energy and it is fun and she's confident and it is really strategically done to deliver the song to the fans, and all of that. But I would also say that it's still pretty pared down. Like it isn't out of control. The people aren't doing backflips. Like they're not having her swing over the crowd Coco: No. ashby: on a fish hook. They don't have her popping up out of a car on fire. Like it's still pretty straightforwardly like five to ten hot people that the camera is focused on and everything's kind of monochrome black and white. So it is still not overdone. Yeah. Coco: Since you, okay, since you love the like dancing with the stars, the dance ashby: Yes. Coco: shows, I think I see something in the dancing style. Maybe my joke about this is that like a lot of other things with Dualipa, it feels attainable even though it is not. I was like, ashby: Yeah. Coco: I could kind of hit these moves with like shoulder down, leg, sh leg, ashby: Yeah. Coco: arm down. Like I feel like I could do it and I know I could not do it. But it all there's something about it that feels like a little bit retro. And I know ashby: Yeah. Coco: part of that is because she has so much like disco and like Euro ashby: Disco. Mm-hmm. Coco: beat, like a disco Euro element to all of her music because that's like who she is in part. but there is something about it that feels like a little bit like retro in a very fun way, but I don't know how to like pinpoint what that is. ashby: Well yeah, it's a disco beat that has like syncopated claps in the middle, so it's like d clap clap, you know? Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: And to everyone that will feel intuitive. It's similar to like a like line dancing or TikTok. Coco: Mm. Mm-hmm. ashby: It looks like and it's also on the beat, you know, it's like one, two, she's walk, walk, walk on the beat, turn, walk, walk, walk, turn, you know? So yeah, there is something like intuitive about it. She's not out here doing like contemporary dance, no, it it and it should feel that way. one thing that they intentionally do for K-pop fans, and they may have borrowed some of this here, is they try to make the dances something that you can more or less reproduce yourself. Coco: Yeah, yeah. ashby: And that's on purpose because the fans like to watch the video Coco: Yeah. ashby: 30 times and learn it. But if they make it so complicated that you could never learn it, then it's not as much fun in terms of participation. So I'm sure if she was doing a global tour, someone gave her that feedback that at least the big motions like the movement of the arms and the when to turn and smile and shake, that those things should be reproducible. But there will always be little things that the naked eye. that r a regular fan isn't going to be able to do or isn't going to necessarily see that the backup dancers are doing. but yeah, like the major chorus motions you want fans to be able to do. And I bet it would take twenty seconds to find a bunch of teens on TikTok doing the Dua Lipa tour dance. Coco: Absolutely absolutely and it I don't run I don't know if that's the same dance in that music video or not too. Like if she I it may also be in the music video. But there ashby: Mm. Coco: was another so another like famous like dual video that went viral of Dualipa dancing, and she's just kind of like shimmying back and forth. ashby: Yeah. Coco: And that is another one that people have like made fun of her for. And so here is her on Jimmy Fallon talking about that, and then they do the dance. ashby: Adorable. I told you late night darling. I love this outfit. It's very like it's very dolls kill. It's very Larika Matoshi. I love it. Coco: it's it was big black fur boots, green ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: crop top that was like a heart, but like diamonds and a little skirt. ashby: With rhinestones. Yeah. Kind of like kind of like a like a punk share from Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: Clueless. Like a punk share from Clueless Outfit. Coco: Yes. And it's just this little like it's this little it's almost like it's a little shimmy, but it's almost a little like a belly dance shimmy. There is a skill ashby: Mm. Coco: to it. So it's like even though people made fun of it, it's like you watch Jimmy Fallon try do it, he can't do it. ashby: Yeah. I love that. I love that she embraced that, yeah, everybody's learning. Like not everything you see is a finished product, you know. Sometimes you're seeing people on the way to get there and that it motivated her, you know. That's great. Coco: Yeah. And in her when she hosted SNL, she also like put it in the monologue and like made fun ashby: Mm. Coco: of it. And I just think there's something when you are getting ridiculed for something online like that, like to to laugh about it, to own it and not be kind of defensive really disarms people. ashby: Do we wanna do we wanna talk about about role models recent attempt at that? Have you seen this? Coco: No, I don't know anything about it. ashby: Apparently role model went on I think it's BBC Unplugged where they have them is that what it's called BBC Unplugged, BBC Crossroads? I don't know, where they have them do covers of other people's songs, right? And Coco: Mm-hmm. sure. Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. ashby: he does a cover of Olivia Rodrigo. and apparently it wasn't amazing. And so he posts before it comes out, he's like, just want you guys to know I covered Olivia and I botched it. So I'm getting ahead of it now. And then, you know, it comes out and there's plenty of there's plenty of backlash to it and stuff. but he apparently Pitchfork posted a thing of his album saying it was like a six point one. And he po he reposted that with him next to Peppa Pig, who also got a six point one on her album. And then the next slide was like him frying up some bacon. So so you know, there's people it's like, you know, you get ahead of it a little bit. Coco: Yeah, yes, yeah. ashby: And there's a way it's it's a there's a there's an art to it and there's a way to do it where you're like you're owning the criticism and you're not you're not being bitter about it. Coco: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. ashby: but I think she's again, late night darling, she nails it. Nails it. Coco: Yes. Okay, I wanna show you one more thing before we transitioned into talking a little bit more about Service Ninety Five and her book club and kind of that element of her, you know, kind of s you know, image and and work. But from I I told you or I warned you, the only trigger ashby: Mm. Coco: warning for this episode is that I watched something that made me cry when I was on the Peloton. And I think ashby: Nice. Coco: that, you know, when you're watching these live concerts, of course they're like in part like you know, for the fans, but also a little bit like PR for the artist to say, look how much people love being at this concert. so at one point she goes out into the audience and she's talking to the people in it like kind of at the front of the show at this stadium tour. And I just loved this part here It's like are having a good time? I'm having a very good time. Do I my sister, you are Mexican. ashby: that's so very cute. And it is emotional. It's like a bunch of people really like embracing her. And yeah, that's really sweet. Coco: Like, I don't know why I'm g I'm tearing up now. What is wrong with me? I have been dua pilled. ashby: No, I get it. I I was tearing up too. I it's just such a it's such a like heartfelt moment and it's always it's always emotional when there's any kind of like an overwhelmingly large crowd is able to like Coco: Yeah. ashby: immediately transmit something quickly. There it that there's something like deep reptile brain human psyche about that, but like Yeah. Like like Coco: Yes. Like opposite of reptile brain, like what made us human? ashby: but But I've really, really felt that at K-pop concerts because there Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: are there are chants and stuff that you learn in advance and that Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: that people know kind of when in the show to do. And when one gets going or all the little like light wand things are like synchronized with the music. And when Coco: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. ashby: it all starts going off together and everyone's doing the chants, it is a like a very emotional feeling, you know? This is what I imagine we're supposed to feel when we all like sing the the national anthem and stuff, but but I don't I don't really get it for that, but I can imagine that's what they're going for. But there is Coco: Yeah. ashby: a feeling of like collective joy and everyone being in on it that is really Coco: Yeah. ashby: heartwarming, you know? I will say that this is really brave of her to do this. And also this type of thing where they go up to the front of the barricades is super dangerous. So I I wonder Coco: Yeah, I know. ashby: I wonder if she's decided to to pull back on that as her shows have gotten bigger because people can get absolutely corved. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Coco: That was the end of her studio, her last tour. So, but but I think so she has spoken about learning Spanish and trying to learn Spanish. And so, you ashby: That's so nice. Coco: know, she you can hear her, she's speaking Spanish to these people as she's like kind of doing little like ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: beets and greets. And he says, It's so important. Thank you for learning our language, and then chants, do my sister, you are Mexican, and then the whole crowd chants it. And ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: then after that, she gets on stage and she just speaks in Spanish for like a Little chunk of time. And she she says, now we're gonna do something. we're gonna do something that we've been doing throughout our tour, which is we're gonna bring out a local artist to perform the next song. and then she p pulls out, let me get his name because I wasn't familiar, but the people in the audience certainly were. she pulls out Fair Olivera, and ashby: Yeah. Coco: they perform a song called Oi Mi Amor. And It is you just it that's when she's kind of standing still ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: at the mic and they're doing this like beautiful performance. so definitely go watch go watch the concert. It's really fun, really enjoyable. But ashby: I love that. I love seeing, you know, obviously you're right. There's there's a cynical side of this that's the machine that makes the money. But I like to believe that this is like at Dua's direction, that she wants to find ways to connect locally with the audience and to use her platform to shine a light on local artists. I'm sure having seen her father work in the music space in Kosovo, like really feeling an urge to highlight local musicians in the place where they're from is something that makes sense as a motivation for her. but you know, of course it could just be, you know, the record label looking for to as a way to highlight other artists that they're have on a subsidiary record label of theirs or something like that. But I want to believe that this is part of her ethos of the world. Coco: Yes, I I I think it really is. And that's kind of what we're gonna like dive into now. and I'll just say I did back in that twenty sixteen interview, which is great, but it's not super long or anything, but it's great because she's really like just speaking her mind, even though she is a very like out out and proud person around like what she thinks and what she believes and has a podcast where she talks about her opinions, but like it is it is like unfiltered in a certain way. But she talks about she this is just in the article, it says. that the author is writing. Her father was also the lead singer in a renowned Kosovan rock band called Oda. Lua Lipa grew up in the grew up to the sound of him playing his own songs. Even though his band was well known in Kosovo, it didn't mean that he could pursue a career as a full-time musician. And then she he quotes her, it's completely different. It's not like the music industry here. It's so small, you send a CD to the radio station and give CDs to your friends, and the song would be played on the radio. A lot of it was word of mouth. And so I do think that like that's that's like part of like the background is like, I ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: I I care about this like local community and there's like a little bit of a grassroots myth. ashby: that's so nice. Coco: Yeah. So I've mentioned a couple times now Service ninety five and this platform. So Dualipa was born in nineteen ninety five, so I think that's where the nineteen ninety-five comes from. but she launched this kind of cultural newsletter website, you know, kind of editorial platform called Service Ninety Five in 2022. And I just went to find, you know, And this is this is partially where I began to be fascinated by her on kind of a little bit of a deeper level. And I wanted to s just see what is the like about page of Surgeus 95 and what does it say? So you can read that. ashby: It says, Welcome to Service 95, founded by Dua Lipa and born from the idea of being of service to our community. Consider us your cultural concierge, serving up insider recommendations and global stories, featuring some of the world's most compelling voices. This is a space where you can delve into the world of creatives while also picking up well-being tips, where you can keep on top of what's new in the culture and get authentic recommendations from locals for your next trip. Where you can find out more about the lives of people across the globe and get advice on how to advocate for social change. Where you can read deep dives on identity or dating and discover the books you never knew you needed to read. This is the world curated for you. Aw, that is so sweet. Coco: It's really nice and it is Political in a way that I do not see other major pop stars typically going, right? ashby: Yeah. Coco: and in part, this was like my curiosity about service 95 was triggered specifically by This photo, and I'm sorry if this is too small, let me make it bigger. So I'll describe what we're looking at here. This is author Douglas Stewart, Min Jin Lee, Hernan Diaz, Emma Klein, Jennifer Clement, and they are clearly at the stadium tour for Dualipa's concert. And then ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: there were these like behind the scenes photos of Like Minjan Lee, kind of like partying with Dua Lipa. And I ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: l had seen this shortly after finishing the novel Pachinko. And I was like, and I also love Douglas Stewart's book Suggy Suggy Bane. And I was like, what is happening? Like, why are all these authors at a Dua Lipa concert? ashby: So she invited her faves. Coco: She invited her faves, slash, you know, they kind of Douglas Stewart in particular was one of the first people that she interviewed kind of as sort of as part. So she before she launched her official like book club in Service 95, she started out with like a podcast on the BBC. So she ashby: Wow. Coco: had an official BBC podcast where she interviewed quote unquote like interesting people. And then it kind of evolved into like authors only. And what's clear from listening to some of these interviews is the the authors have a real respect for Dua Lipa. They're like Dua Lipa is like an advocate for reading, yes. But like a deep literary curiosity, something that stands out to me in like the Dua Lipa book club of it all, is she's picking books she read years ago and loved, and then bringing those authors on to have conversations about those books. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: there are some books that are like, some authors come on because they have a new book, but for the most part, these are like books that have already achieved like significant literary acclaim that she loves. And she's talking like from her heart about the things that she like loves about them and interviewing them. With a real professionalism. So if Dua Lipa's career in music doesn't go it well, she has like this whole other like avenue where she's built up these skills. and I think that, you know, the the picking books that already have achieved success that are kind of, you know, from the past feels distinct from something like Hello Sunshine, that is like Reese Witherspoon's kind of book club, and other book and other book clubs that that Again, not to shade them, but often feel like they are kind of like to build towards like the film version. Like there is a b building of an audience, finding what stories connect with audiences, and then making the film out of those movies. This is not that. ashby: Or honestly just to capture discourse of whatever the latest controversial book is on the on the bestseller list, you know. Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. So we don't need to but I I have listened to a number of these. So I've listened to the Michelle Zonner one, which is really great. the author of Crying in H Mart, which is an incredible memoir. Have you read that memoir? ashby: I haven't. It's been recommended to me a number of times. So I should read Coco: You would probab ashby: it. Coco: you should you would probably like it. I have it, you could borrow it. lots of good Korean food talk in Crying and H Mart. Yes, yes. And that one's ashby: I love a food in a book. Coco: really funny because Michelle Zonner herself is a musician, kind of most famously a musician. and then it was very funny because Dua Lipa's interviewing her, and Dua Lipa's like, So what's in your writer? And Michelle's like, Well, what's in your writer? ashby: Ha ha ha ha. Coco: There's a there is the listening to the interviews is funny because you get a sense that these people are like Yes ashby: Starstruck by Dua Lipa, but but that she doesn't know she's Dualipa. Coco: Yes. Like she goes into her interview voice and they're still a little bit like and she's like, Thank you so much for being here. And they are like, Thank you, Dualipa. ashby: They were like, I wasn't doing anything. I was very free. Coco: Think a lot of them are like, I'm not on a book tour right now, and you're helping me sell more books of my yeah, ashby: Right, right, right. Coco: in this like really incredible way. So I just thought we could take a little listen because I want to give a sense for Dua Lipa's interviewing skills, but also a little bit of a sense for like where she's willing to go in her conversations. So this they were she interviewed. Leah Yippy, I hope I'm pronouncing Leah's last name correctly, who is an Albanian author who wrote a memoir called Free. And the memoir itself is in their discussion, what they're talking about is that after the you know the fall of the Soviet Union, after the fall of the Berlin Wall, you know, in in lots of places in Eastern Europe, including Albania, they are Told that they are now getting freedom, but they also then exist within a certain like economic collapse that occurs. And it's a she's talking about when you what different types of whatever her different experiences of freedom have been. lots of really nuanced conversation there. So let's give this one just a little listen So that was a little bit of a longer excerpt, but I did want to give that, you know, insight into how she conducts herself as someone who's like hosting these com conversations, as well as the places that they're kind of willing to go. I'm curious to hear, you know, how if you had heard her, you know, kind of do any of this podcasting before and and what you're thinking about it. ashby: No, I I didn't know about the podcast. I I knew sort of vaguely that she had a book club. I didn't know there was like this entire ecosystem of different stuff that she's done. But but I think I mean I think the main thing that I recognize is that she is modeling a kind of listening f Coco: Hm. ashby: to to experts and people with lived experience. That I think is really admirable because I think there's a lot of pressure on everyone, but especially celebrities, to not speak about something unless they are an expert, or to feel like, you know, if they have a knowledge gap, that they need to be performing something in some way about whatever the topic is, that they can't just be exploratory about something. but she really just basically is giving the floor to this person and listening and just reacting to it from the amount of knowledge that she has. She's definitely not trying to seem like she's more clued in than she is. She's not trying to hog the mic in any way. She's also not trying to caveat. She's not trying to be like, well, you know, of course those kinds of protests are bad. Like, she Coco: That's exactly yeah. Mm-hmm. ashby: really is just like, I have this much information and I'm sure you have more to say about it. And then just letting that person speak. and I and I I think that that's modeling something really lovely and something. that I would like to feel more comfortable doing is just like like listening to people with expertise without feeling like I need to reflect something back to them or else it's a waste of their time, you know? and just using her platform to let people share what they know and agree where she has an opinion on Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: the the like ideals that are there and not feeling like she needs to have a super extensive and I know that she does know a lot about this, so I'm just certainly not trying to but Coco: And it's this is an hour plus conversation. I mean, these are in depth conversations, ashby: Yeah, but she's not Coco: but right. ashby: but she's but she's an interested pop star interviewing this person. She's not trying to be a political journalist. She's not asking Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ashby: hard follow up questions. She's just letting her interests lead and her compassion for the obvious human elements of the story be enough instead of Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: I think, yeah, I think everyone wants to seem like they are like New Yorker political journalist level knowledge before they can talk about anything. Coco: It's almost like Dua Lipa doesn't have anything left to prove. ashby: It does seem that way. Coco: Because we fucking love her. ashby: yeah. It's so true. It's so true. And I and I appreciate that. And I think the people that she's interviewing appreciate that too. Yeah. Coco: Yeah. I I really recommend that's a great, really interesting conversation overall. but and a lot of it is about the book itself, like about the you chose this point of view for the character, you know, for it's not it's a memoir, but like why did you choose this angle? Like, what were the things that your family meant to you? So there's a lot of other stuff like that that just like conversations about the book, and then deeper in they get into the politics part of it. But also I would say like outside of this conversation, Dua Lipa has been very supportive of those. Protest against the Kushner development of that, like, you know, ecological land that is like meant for Albanians. and I do think that's something where you have a pop star that's being very vocal against the Trump administration, which many have, you know, to some extent, but or, you know, the the Trump family overall. But I still think, you know, notable at the very least. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: and I also will say I did love. One of her first interviews I already mentioned is with Douglas Stewart, who is, I think, on the short list for the Booker Awards for John of John for this year. I have it back there. but they're talking about his earlier novel, Suggy Bane, his second novel, Suggy Bane, which is incredible and so devastating. A story about a child growing up with in poverty, with a mother who's, you know, really suffering from alcoholism and the instability of their life in Scotland. and she talks in that interview where she's like, I think you know this about me, Douglas, basically, but like I really do gravitate towards like the darker stories about life. ashby: Mm. Coco: And I I I was like, I I love that about Dua Lipa. Like the books she picks are tough. ashby: Mm. Yeah. Coco: and it's this very interesting contrast to disco party on the beach. And it's like I like both of those things too. ashby: True, yeah. A real study and contrast, you know, like she Coco: Uh-huh. ashby: it does seem like she really wants the full spectrum of experience and not I mean, her book club just just saying her book club is not called Hello Sunshine. Coco: Well, you make a good point. You make a good point. Yes. ashby: Doesn't have a certain angle there, yeah. Coco: And okay, my thing about Service 95 is that so it's like a website and like kind of it's kind of like an online magazine website. What's very cool is so for her book club, it's like there's the interview that she does, and then there's like a curated list of books and films that are related to the topic. So fiction, nonfiction. ashby: Very syllabus style. Coco: There's yes, there's like photo journals in there. There's playlists that are put together by the authors. There's just like so much more. So in this whole commentary about, you know, that that kind of Substack saying I want to live like Dua Lipa, it's like I want to go have like deep engagement with the things that are like giving me joy or life. and they're kind of putting it all there together for you. Yeah. ashby: I love that. Coco: Mm-hmm. So, you know, I just wanna also add, in part, my fascination or love of Dua Lipa has been informed by the fact that she's very pro-Palestine. So she has been comfortable being, you know, kind of speaking using the word genocide, you know, posting on her Instagram stories, in particular when Rafa was under attack. Well. still under attack. But, you know, kind of this this this brutal siege on Rafa at one point, you know, posting on Instagram. And in a landscape where that is the topic that, you know, even celebrities who are very comfortable speaking about LGBTQ issues and trans issues, you know, even as on the more you know, topics that people have a hard time talking about, you know, most there's a most celebrities will not talk about that. there's a handful of, you know, that do, and it's wonderful. And I think keeping Dua Lipa's, you know, heritage in mind in relation to that is important. You know, this understanding of coming from a place where you're an ethnic minority, that had been, you know, under siege in in various different, struggles of world powers her pro-Palestine's dance goes back before, you know, October 7th of 2023. So I'm gonna show you This was a full page, full page ad taken out in the New York Times and this is what it looks like. ashby: Wow. Coco: Would would you like me to describe this one or would you wanna describe it? ashby: sure, it's black and white and Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: it says Bella, Gigi, and Dua, and it has three odd pictures of Bella Hadid, Gigi Hadid, and Dua Lipa. And Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: then underneath it it says, Hamas calls for a second Holocaust, and then in all caps, condemn them now. The day of judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them. Then the Jews will hide behind the rocks and trees and the rocks and trees will cry out, Muslim, there's a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him. Article seven, human charter. Hamash charter. Coco: Hamas charter. Yeah. ashby: I see. Coco: So they're referencing a version of the Hamas Charter. So this is from May of 2021. this was an advertisement that was organized and paid for by Rabbi Shmuli Botich, the head of the World Values Network. and this is in response to, you know, a quote unquote conflict where Palestine Palestinians were protesting this expected eviction, aka ethnic cleansing, in East Jerusalem, and doing so with a general strike in East Jerusalem, in the West Bank, in Gaza, and those Palestinians, you know, living in Israel. And then, you know, in part related to this, then Hamas and militant groups launched rockets, and you know, then Israel bombards Gaza. And there was a death toll of 256 Palestinians and 13 Israelis, you know, during this conflict. And so those three women, Bella Hadid, Jiji Hadid, who are both Palestinian, you know, of Palestinian descent, and Dua Lipa, you know, had all you know posted something on their Instagram stories. I don't have those, or, you know, in in support of Palestinians. And Dua Lipa posted this post in response to that New York Times ad here. You read that. ashby: I utterly reject the false and appalling allegations that were published today in the New York Times advertisement taken out by the World Values Network. This is the price you pay for defending Palestinian human rights against an Israeli government whose actions in Palestine, both Human Rights Watch and the Israeli Human Rights Group Vit S B to Selem Vetsalem Coco: But s but sell them. But sell them. ashby: accuse of persecution and discrimination. I take this stance because I believe that everyone, Jews, Muslims, and Christians, have the right to live in peace as equal citizens of a state that they choose. The World Values Network are shamelessly using my name to advance their ugly campaign with falsehoods and blatant misrepresentations of who I am and what I stand for. I stand in solidarity with all oppressed people and reject all forms of racism. Wow. Yeah. Coco: Yeah. And she had at the end, this is again before the Service 95, it's like the Service 95 book club podcast has almost taken the place of her original BBC podcast, which was called At Your Service, do Aliba at Your Service. and so she had Dean Biket, the kind of former executive editor of the New York Times, come on her podcast and they're interviewing him about his role at the New York Times. really lovely conversation about, you know, the role the New York Times played in Me Too, the role the New York Times played in in their critique or lack of critique or taking serious or not taking serious the Trump and you know, Donald Trump as a candidate for his first time that he was elected. You know, an in-depth conversation. and then we get to this point right here. We can stop there because he's not gonna give her anything, you know? but I just I think listening to her not only ask the question to the person that she has the opportunity to ask the question to, you know, on her platform, but also then like when he gives her I understand what he's saying too, that he's like it's between church and state, but you know, he's kind of given her the long-winded editorial answer there and then she does like challenge it again. She says like, I still don't understand this. and she's in other, you know, places spoken about the fact that she got lots of death threats from this, that this was very like charged, and she felt that it was, you know, endangering her. And you know, I just I just think she's an admirable person ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: and and a really she seems very clear on like what her values are and an unwilling to waver on them. ashby: Yeah, I I think she's really, yeah, like I said, brave to ask and to keep it to keep the perspective on on on just that of like, well, you know, I know that there has to be some division and I can see an example like wine s the Weinstein story, why you would want to not it'd be better for you to just not know what goes on in the Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: advertising side of things when you're doing investigative reporting, sure. But You know, there has to be limits. So why did this not meet those limits? And and that's true, because, you know, you could imagine any number of billionaire oligarchs in the world reaching out to the New York Times and being like, I want a full page ad on my bitch ex wife, and then being like, Well, we don't just take money for no reason. Okay. So why did this not cross those lines? You know, is a good is a really reasonable and good question. You know, obviously he wasn't ever gonna give her any answer, but Coco: Yeah. ashby: but I'm glad that she did ask the question. And I think she should make him question what kind of place he works for, because that division works two ways. It's sure, maybe it lets you feel like that's not your your that's not your ball. Maybe you can just Coco: good point. ashby: feel like this doesn't have to do with me. I don't have to know what goes on on the advertising side, it will corrupt my journalism. However By not being involved, you're also choosing to let ads like that corrupt your journalism. It means that I don't respect a publication that just takes money to publish whatever it wants. It to the average person, these are not two distinct publications. Okay, it's one publication. If you want to publish the truth, if you care about the truth, if you care about uncovering human rights abuses, then you can't also work for a paper that is just going to publish propaganda. You should care about this. It's actually antithetical to your values as an investigative journalist to just say, that's not me. That's not my job. so I'm glad. Yeah. Coco: Exactly. And I and I showed you that top part, which was more like the image and the big headlines. And then like the bottom part is like an article that is written as part of the ad. F the ad look like an article ashby: Yeah, yeah. Coco: and it's full of like, you know, Israel propaganda like 101 that audiences now have been like most trained to see through and to understand and to be able to digest. In twenty twenty one, I don't think that, you know, your average New York Times reader. was, you know, kind of seeing it like this this propaganda and then, you know, the counter propaganda as often. So I just I was like, all right, girl, yeah, hold them accountable. So yeah, please. ashby: One thing though is just that, and I was kind of thinking this with her po obviously I'm not in Dua Lipa's position and hindsight's 2020 and the world was different in 2021 than it is now. So I'm sure all with a grain of salt. But like I would think that now she probably wouldn't want to focus so much on the per on the personal impact because I do think the real danger of that article has more to do with Coco: Yes, agreed. ashby: Sh with the real danger has more to do with showing that the paper is gullible to propaganda and Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: to possibly misinforming the misinformation aspect of like misinforming a lot of people and kinda honestly kind of taking a side. when it's not doing it doesn't seem to be doing equal sides. You know, it's it's putting its thumb on the scales in a way that is harmful to the Palestinian people. So That's the real danger there is that it sways public opinion against a genocide and it isn't trying to do an informed all the way around. Well, if we do a if we do a one page ad this way, let's do another one page ad the other way. Like, no. So so that's the real danger. I mean, I understand she may have gotten death threats. I understand that it may have been frustrating to her, but even in her statement when she was like, This is the price you pay for speaking out Yeah. Coco: Yeah. And it was again twenty twenty one. That's not she's she is now like there is nothing that would stop me from speaking. She'd be like, There's ashby: There's nothing that anyone could touch but Coco: nothing that someone could say that would make me stop talking about Palestine. Like that's her angle. Mm-hmm. ashby: Right. But it's also that it's it's easy for me to say now in twenty twenty six when Duolip Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: is essentially untouchable. Like no th no one can do it. Sure, maybe she did feel much more vulnerable at that time. But but I would think that the real harm there, the real victim there is not so much her and the Hadid sisters. Do you know what I mean? And and and unfortunately, Coco: Of course, of course, yes, yes, yes. ashby: that's the part that that he is responding to. He's like, I can see that that hurt your feelings. Coco: I know. I know. ashby: And that's not what this is about. You know, yes, she did feel personally attacked because she was personally attacked for her beliefs. Coco: Yeah. ashby: But like it's not about her feelings. It's about the broader implications of this of this political choice made by a political institution. And I I don't know. I would have liked to I I know, like I said, she's still incredibly brave for talking about it in the first place, but with more with more opportunity that she's kind of more of a spokesperson on this, like I hope people will actually grapple with the content of what she's saying. Otherwise Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: she's at risk of poor little famous girl. And I d I know that that she's not that and I don't want to see her get put in that trap, which he's kind of doing with her rhetorically. Coco: Sure, yes. I mean and this is also she's not a journalist. ashby: No, of course not. No, yeah, exactly, exactly. Coco: but okay, we're I I wanted to kind of cover the breadth of Dua Lipa and what it ashby: Yeah. Coco: is that like, as we say, like gives us the brain buzz, gets us excited. ashby: Okay. Coco: We have not really talked about the music and I am not we talked about like some of the the vibes ashby: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Coco: that come through. I'm just not an eloquent person when I'm talking about music, but all I can say is that I have been listening to Dua Lipa like nonstop for the past, I don't know. Several days, and I am like, I only like it more. The more I ashby: Wow. Coco: listen to it, the more I love it. I cannot wait for her to go on tour again. I will be buying the expensive seats because I need to see the outfits. I need to see the dancers. ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: I want to hear her. She just is like such a fun person. I really adore her. and so, you know, in addition to service ninety-five, which I think is worth a little you know, worth getting the newsletter, staying in in touch with the things that they're doing. she also has something called the Manifesto Library, where she curates a list of a hundred books. these are mostly banned books about political topics, and that lives in the Livraria Lalo bookstore in Porto, Portugal. that is a mouthful. I'll put it in the the substack. This is a stunning bookstore. I'm like, it makes me want to go to Portugal to go to this bookstore. but it look it's just part an extension of, you know, kind of her her platform and the way that she thinks about books. and she is including free that memoir by Leah Yippy in that in that c kind of curated list of books after their conversation. But she's also known for the Sunny Hill Festival, you know, which she kind of co-runs with her dad. Her dad is Duca Jin Lipa. I did look up how to pronounce that. cool guy, looks like a cool guy, looks like a fun guy, in Pristina, Kosovo. and so this festival just took place. This just happened. she was, you know, it the entire time wearing her like black Sunny Hill festival t-shirt. ashby: This was this year, twenty twenty six. Coco: This was like two weeks ago. Yep. Mm-hmm. ashby: wow. We're on we're in the we're we have our finger on the pulse, you guys. The zeitgeist. the Sunny Hill Festival sounds Coco: you Yes. ashby: cool and I would love to go to it. So you're now stoked, you're a total do a stand and you're gonna get tickets Coco: Total do a stand. ashby: next time she's in our neighborhood. Coco: Gonna get tickets, can't wait to go. yeah, and just, you know, it's been really fun. A lot of times you dive into learning more about a famous person and you come away with like icky feelings. There ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: certainly are critiques of Dua Lipa, her partnership with Nestle, that, you know, Nestle is a company that a lot of people have, you know, strong critiques around for environmental and human rights reasons. a lot of people did critique her, you know, her wedding. you know. closing streets within, you know, a city in in ways that are different, but like could you could also say, you know, Jeff Bezos as well like Taylor Swift ashby: Mm. Coco: in New York City have done. So people certainly have critiques of her, have critiques of, you know, worshipping celebrity in any way. I agree with those things. Like I'm on the same page. And yet I felt like diving into this kind of particular pop star and then her like extended platform and like ecosystem of things that she does. really just gave me a boost. It really made me happy and her music makes my shoulders go up and down and I'm a I'm a big fan, doa. Keep on doing you. ashby: I love that. And you're right. Like there are so many pop stars and stuff where I'm like, so interesting. I wonder what their background is. Like her name stands out. You might think, what kind of name is that? Is that a stage name? Is that like her actual name? So you might start there with like, I want to Google that and learn more about it. but then there's always a little part of me that like you is like, no, I don't wanna know. I s want to enjoy them when they're on Saturday Night Live. And if I go Google it, I'm gonna find some tweet that they posted in 2012 that's gonna upset the shit out of me. So you're right. Anytime you do learn more about a famous person and you come away actually liking them more as like a person and not just like as a celebrity, that is exciting and like worth sharing. And it's almost like a reverse trigger warning. It's like you have to Coco: Yeah. ashby: let people know this person is safe and good and you can root for them. so I'm I'm happy we got to do that. Aww. That's really sweet. And I Coco: And dua means love. Her name means love. It's so sweet. Yeah. ashby: and I get that. Yeah, she's a she's a fun. pop star to root for. And I Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: like, you're right. I like seeing that she's like a whole complex person with lots of interests. And you know, it's like like we always say about royals or celebrities. It's like, Coco: Mm-hmm. ashby: it's like well, if we're gonna have them, then they should be more in the mold of Dualipa. Coco: Yes! ashby: You know? So this was fun. We did it. Coco: man. Well, we did it. yeah, we're levitating now, you know. ashby: We are now levitating. Play us out, de baby. Play us out. Coco: You know how hard it's been for me to get these audio clips to play. I can't it's gonna be ashby: I know, I know. It's okay. Maybe I can add one to the end. Coco: a banger substack though. I have so much stuff I can put in there now. So go to syllab syllabuspod dot substack.com and I guess give and do Alipa a follow. Not that she needs my help. Alright, Ashby. Bye! ashby: Okay, this was fun. Talk to you later. Bye. I can't wait to go see what delicious food she's eating in Italy today. Coco: But if if you wanna I'm telling you, she's gonna make you want to drink a martini and you just can't do it because you're old and and it will break ashby: I literally can't. Coco: your body to drink just it's a tiny little glass of just pure liquor when you think about it. anyway. ashby: I certainly cannot