Latest / Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson / How to Handle More Than You Can Handle | Parenting, Grief, Joy & Special Needs with Amanda Atkins | Ep 44

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How to Handle More Than You Can Handle | Parenting, Grief, Joy & Special Needs with Amanda Atkins | Ep 44 · Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

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Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
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Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of
0:06
The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
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Before I jump in with today's guest, I want to say a huge thank you to you, our
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books, and other courses, please go to rupertisaacson.com.
0:34
So now let's jump in.
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Welcome back to Live Free.
0:38
Ride Free.
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I've got Amanda Griffith Atkins, who is the author of How to
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Handle More Than You Can Handle.
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I know a lot of us listening to this will know exactly or
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resonate exactly with that title.
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I know I do.
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Being the father of an autistic son overwhelm is well, overwhelms are us.
1:06
So it's good to be able to talk about it squarely because then it allows 'em
1:13
to think about what might we do how might we end the feelings of isolation.
1:20
Some people feel shame, some people feel all sorts of things, but I know that.
1:27
For me in the early years particularly, isolation was the thing, because if
1:33
you have the kid who's taking a their clothes off and pooping on the floor of
1:38
the supermarket at the checkout counter, you've sort of avoid going, you know,
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and this, you know, begins to snowball.
1:47
And there's so many parents out there in this kind of position.
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So this book that Amanda has written is, is a very valuable thing.
1:55
So Amanda, thank you for coming on the show.
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Please tell us, you know, a bit about who you are and why did you write this book.
2:03
Amanda Atkins: Well, thanks for having me and.
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I was listening to your audio book recently and could just resonate with
2:09
so much of what you said about the early years and, you know, you beautifully
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articulated your anger and your rage and all the complicated feelings that it feels
2:19
like good parents aren't allowed to have.
2:22
And so, you know, from that sentiment is sort of where my book was birthed.
2:26
I was 26 when I had Asher Fresh out of grad school.
2:30
You know, in hindsight it felt, feels like I was a baby at the time.
2:34
You know, 26, it feels so young to have this really high needs child.
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Had just graduated with my shiny new master's degree from Northwestern
2:42
University and really felt like, okay, like I'm on top of the world.
2:46
You know, I'm at, I'm ready to start my career.
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I've done everything right, I've checked all the boxes and then
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gave birth to a son with a one in 20,000 syndrome, pr, Willy Syndrome.
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And this particular syndrome is all encompassing.
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It's cognitive delays, physical delays, and if you were to Google it, the thing
3:08
that you'll read right off the bat is what's called insatiable hunger.
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So meaning the part of his brain that doesn't re that registers hunger
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hypothalamus doesn't work properly for him, or rather, I should say, the part
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of his brain that registers fullness.
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So Asher lives with a feeling of hunger all the time.
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Throw in a healthy dose of OCD.
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And some pretty intense rigidity and perseveration and you know, food really
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kind of consumes our life, meaning that a lot of people with PWS, their
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families lock up the refrigerator.
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You know, things like dog food, toothpaste, anything remotely edible
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can instantly become a threat.
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And so, you know, imagine being held, being handed your, you know, baby and
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told that this is the future, right?
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And so really early on I felt so conflicted because I felt like
4:02
the expectation was that I should be the special needs warrior.
4:08
You know, I should wear the ribbon of PWS, I should go to the five Ks I should raise.
4:14
Money and just really early on it felt like I, I felt so resistant to
4:18
my identity being taken over by this.
4:22
Mm-hmm.
4:22
And
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Rupert Isaacson: actually at 26, the irony,
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Amanda Atkins: the irony now that here we are both talking about our,
4:28
you know, talking about what it means to parent child with a disability.
4:31
In some ways my identity has become consumed with it.
4:34
Yeah.
4:34
But I like to think it's in my own way.
4:35
So anyway, so early on I just felt such resistance to.
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I felt that people really did not know how to respond when I said I was struggling,
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when I said we've had a really hard day or we're any really hard stretch you
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know, I'm really struggling emotionally.
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People always felt the need to meet that with, oh, but you guys
4:57
are such a parents for Asher.
4:59
Or you know, kids are so resilient.
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Or, you know, the phrase from the title of the book, God won't, oh God won't give
5:05
you more than you can handle anything religious, you know, is thrown onto it.
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Of course.
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And so I sort of felt like this is actually more than I can handle.
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Like, you know, I feel like every part of my life is being touched by this,
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my friendships, my marriage, my career, my decision to have more children.
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All of it feels like it's just imploding under the pressure
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of what, of this experience of parenting such a high need child.
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And so, I felt like there needed to be space for parents and caregivers to talk
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about how hard this is in a way that, that, that, you don't have to throw
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the caveat, but I really love my child.
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Right.
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Because of course I love my child.
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Like of course I love him exactly as he is.
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But would I change it?
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If I could, I might, you know?
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Mm-hmm.
5:48
And I feel like there's, there's not a lot of room for us to say
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that as parents, so that the book kind of came outta that place.
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And I really felt the need to touch on our, our identity as parents, and
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that we're allowed to have an identity that's more than just a caretaker.
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Because I feel like a lot of parents really struggle to pursue anything other
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than anything that involves their child.
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And I just wanna, I want parents to know that like, number one, your life's
6:12
not over, but you have to work at it.
6:15
You have to work at it, you know?
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Rupert Isaacson: Well, you are a, you're a family therapist, um mm-hmm.
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And you've got a pretty I.
6:23
Burgeoning practice.
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Were you, was that as a result of becoming a special needs mom or were you already
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heading for that route before you, like, was that what you were gonna be anyway?
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Amanda Atkins: Well, that's a good question because I think in some ways
6:38
my career is a constant, like urged to like overcompensate for the lost time.
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Like, it almost feels like, you know, there was a moment where I
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was like, oh, I'm never gonna work.
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Like I'm gonna be a stay at home parent forever.
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This isn't what, you know, I, I, I, I got this training, I'm really passionate
6:55
about being a therapist, but I was a stay at home mom for three years.
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So not, not an incredibly long time, but long enough in the beginning to where it
7:01
felt like I'm really behind in my career.
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And so I think once I was able to kind of get my feet under me, I really felt
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like, wow, I really wanna run with this.
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I really want to grow this practice.
7:13
So, I wouldn't say it was necessarily.
7:15
A result of having a child with a disability.
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But it kind of, I realized I wanted to have career.
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Rupert Isaacson: Right.
7:21
But it wasn't where you were going after grad school before you had Asha.
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Amanda Atkins: No, no, no, no.
7:27
Yeah, yeah.
7:27
What, so what, what
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Rupert Isaacson: were you, what were you hoping to be?
7:29
What, what was, what did you come at?
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What was your master
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Amanda Atkins: degree?
7:31
Well, well, well, I was in grad school, aft I was, I, I was going to be a
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therapist by the time Asher was born.
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I knew I wanted to be a therapist, but I don't think that I ever saw myself in this
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niche of, like, working with caregivers.
7:44
That's for sure.
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You know, I've always had an interest in grief.
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That's always been kind of my primary interest.
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So why, why,
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Rupert Isaacson: why is that been in your interest?
7:55
Amanda Atkins: I think there's something there about how this, something can
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happen to you and it never goes away.
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Like it changes you forever.
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You know, grief is something that we're all gonna experience, whether,
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like I'm talking about grief from like, the death of a loved one.
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Mm-hmm.
8:11
It's something that's gonna happen to all of us.
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So it's not unique to you or to me, but it's something that's so life changing.
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Mm.
8:20
There's no way to like get out of it easily, I guess.
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And that, that's always struck me because it's like none of us are immune to it.
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And it's just something that's so profoundly impactful to all of us.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
8:33
Yeah.
8:33
But when I was at university, I wasn't thinking about doing anything like that.
8:40
Why do you think as a young woman at late adolescent woman, why were you,
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was there, was there a family story that
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Amanda Atkins: Yes.
8:52
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
8:52
Yeah.
8:53
So what, what, what?
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You're so interested in grief.
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Yeah.
8:55
See,
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Amanda Atkins: you could be a therapist.
8:56
Okay.
8:56
You're good at this.
8:57
Alright.
8:58
So when I was in high school, I.
9:02
My best friend though, there's a big group of us that were
9:05
all hanging out at the lake.
9:07
And my best friend at the time, her boyfriend, said he wasn't feeling well.
9:12
So he went into the bathroom and he ended up collapsing.
9:16
And we were 16 years old.
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9 1 1 was called, bunch of my friends were trying to give CPR and
9:23
everything, and he ended up basically, he had an asthma attack and he died.
9:28
And it was this just insane experience of being like, oh my gosh,
9:33
someone's alive to someone's dead.
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And, and I was her best friend.
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And so I was in this position of like.
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Caretaking for her listening to her.
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I mean, I went home with her that night and I remember like put
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putting pictures of him upside down.
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She asked me to do it.
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And so I just sort of like got put in this almost like therapist
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role of caretaking mm-hmm.
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For my best friend right after her boyfriend died.
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And just kind of walking through that grief process with her
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made me really not afraid of it.
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I mean, mean not afraid of grieving people and feeling like I could sort
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of walk into that experience of someone who had experienced this big loss.
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Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
10:10
Yeah.
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How did she, I presume because she was quite young and they had not been
10:17
together very long, I should imagine that a certain point she did move on.
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Amanda Atkins: Absolutely.
10:24
Yeah.
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Rupert Isaacson: And you know why though, in that case did
10:30
you think it stayed with you?
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What made you think Yeah, you know, I kind of want to pursue a career.
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Amanda Atkins: I think I just felt so comfortable with it.
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I, I noticed a lot of other people weren't quite sure the right thing to say to
10:45
her or maybe didn't bring it up at all.
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And I never felt scared of the topic of talking about pain.
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Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
10:53
Amanda Atkins: I guess it felt very comfortable to me and I'd
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never, I never was afraid of it.
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Rupert Isaacson: Was that, talk to me about your own family
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background, your parents.
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Were they people who would talk very openly about this
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sort of thing, for example?
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Amanda Atkins: No, that's the irony of just me being a therapist is that I
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come from a family that it uses humor.
11:14
It's all humor.
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It's all crude humor, you know, like it's fun.
11:18
Oh, it fit right
11:19
in.
11:19
Yeah.
11:19
Yeah.
11:20
It's great.
11:20
It's a great, it's a such a fun family, but when it comes to vulnerability
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or more tender or raw emotions, there's no expression of it at all.
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And so I, I, I almost feel like, I don't know, it almost felt.
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I was so needed an outlet to face hard feelings and discomfort that I like maybe
11:44
looked for in other, or, or I don't know if I looked for it in other people, but
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it, I wanted to give a voice to it because it was something in my family of origin
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that was never like freely talked about.
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I,
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Rupert Isaacson: and was it something that needed to be talked about?
11:55
Like there were all these elephants in the room, or Not even with not,
12:00
Amanda Atkins: it was just more subtle than that.
12:02
That's like my family is, it's the kind, even like in writing a book, right?
12:07
Like my pa my parents, they're still married you know, in their seventies.
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They listened to the audiobook and they were like, what?
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We're really proud of you.
12:15
I was like, that's probably the first time I've ever heard we're proud of you.
12:20
Or That's great, because
12:20
Rupert Isaacson: I've never heard it from my
12:21
Amanda Atkins: parents.
12:22
Yeah.
12:22
Well it took, yeah.
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And you've written a book too.
12:24
Come on.
12:25
What more can we do that's not fair.
12:27
Yeah, so I mean, it, that's, that's it.
12:29
There's no, you know, there's no.
12:31
Every now and again, they'll say, how many copies?
12:33
My mom said, how many copies have you sold?
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I told her and she said, that's it.
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Rupert Isaacson: My answer to that is always both of them.
12:43
Amanda Atkins: Okay, good.
12:43
Okay.
12:43
I'm gonna use that from now on.
12:45
I'm gonna use that.
12:46
So, you know, it's just, I don't know.
12:48
I don't know.
12:48
I don't exactly know.
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My, my mom's mom had a disability, she had a limb difference, Uhhuh, and
12:55
so I sort of have the, and that was like in the fifties, and so, okay.
12:59
I have this, she only, so she only had one arm.
13:01
Ah, and I, I, I contribute some of my mom's discomfort about talking about
13:06
hard things as I wonder if her mom really modeled, like, we don't talk
13:09
about differences, you know, just.
13:11
Get back on the horse, buck up, like, you know,
13:14
Rupert Isaacson: that would seem likely from that generation, right?
13:17
Yeah.
13:17
In the
13:17
Amanda Atkins: fifties, it's like, yeah, I have a difference.
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Yes, I could wallow in it, but I'm not going to, we just gotta keep going.
13:22
So I think that's probably messaging that was passed down through the years.
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You know, my dad was in the Vietnam War, his family was really poor.
13:30
Lots of, you know, it's, it's just like lots of messaging around like, what,
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what does it really mean to suffer?
13:36
What, what is worth talking about?
13:38
And suffering.
13:39
Like surely feelings suffering and your feelings, it's like not that important
13:43
when it's like there's much other things.
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Rupert Isaacson: It is interesting though that the generations that
13:47
came through the Depression in World War ii they had to simply cope.
13:53
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
13:54
Rupert Isaacson: In a way that I think is unimaginable for Yes.
13:58
Our generation.
14:00
And I would posit that that kind of.
14:03
Jocular Stoicism was probably the best tool.
14:09
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
14:09
Rupert Isaacson: Because when you're dealing with, I mean, obviously the
14:13
experience of World War ii, for example, for the Americans, was very different
14:17
to the Europeans in that it wasn't as, you know, it didn't impact civilians
14:20
except for the fact that their, you know, their, their boys were killed.
14:25
But the cities were not being destroyed.
14:27
Women were not being raped.
14:28
You know, Bayview were not being bayonetted like within America.
14:31
Mm-hmm.
14:32
That of course, all happened in, in, in Europe.
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But
14:37
I do have a great respect, I think, for the place of that kind
14:44
of joo stoicism because I think it does also build resilience.
14:49
And I, you know, it's a, it's becoming so cliched at the moment, but I think
14:55
that, I don't think I observe that, the current, younger, young adult generation
15:01
is less resilient palpably than mine was.
15:06
And I'm half a, you know, I'm, I'm probably half a generation on from you.
15:10
So it seems that there's been a kind of diminishment of resilience.
15:14
So I have really mixed feelings about the let's talk it all out thing.
15:20
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
15:21
Mm-hmm.
15:22
Rupert Isaacson: Because I can see I'm absolutely can see both points of
15:25
view, so I end up doing both, you know?
15:28
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, yeah.
15:30
Rupert Isaacson: And as you say, you know, I wrote a couple of books about
15:33
my own experience and definitely put my own feelings in there.
15:38
And at the same time, there's an awful lot of toilet humor, you know?
15:41
Mm-hmm.
15:42
Because that's what gets you through.
15:44
Amanda Atkins: I agree.
15:45
Rupert Isaacson: You know, the, the toilet humor actually got us up the mountain.
15:48
You know, to the shaman in Siberia when nothing else.
15:51
Yeah.
15:52
You know, that's right.
15:53
Gods of humor.
15:53
That's right.
15:53
Toilet humor saved us.
15:55
And actually when we are, I'm doing trainings for our therapeutic approaches.
15:59
I actually school people in toilet humor for very specific reasons because
16:04
you know, a lot of the kids who we are dealing with are what I call therapy out.
16:08
You know, if you, if you are a, a child and you're being told every day for
16:14
your whole childhood, basically you need therapy, you are bas you're just getting
16:18
a message saying you're not Right.
16:20
Yeah.
16:21
And this erodes yourself respect.
16:24
And the only way you can reestablish your self-respect if you've lost it,
16:33
is some sort of act of rebellion.
16:36
Mm-hmm.
16:36
And of course, toilet humor is by its very nature and act of rebellion.
16:40
So the moment you start talking about poo.
16:43
You give a safe outlet for this person to rebel.
16:49
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
16:50
Rupert Isaacson: So there's a restoration of self-respect.
16:52
And then of course we're using it in the educational context so you can teach
16:56
all the natural sciences through poop.
16:57
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
16:58
You know, that's okay.
16:58
And I'll never resist
16:59
Rupert Isaacson: anything.
17:00
And, and it's funny, I mean, and if you pretend it's not funny, then
17:04
the child, particularly kids, will know that you're full of that thing
17:07
that you're saying is not funny.
17:08
Amanda Atkins: Uhhuh
17:09
Rupert Isaacson: So, so true.
17:10
It's God's free joke.
17:11
Stuff that comes out of your ass is funny.
17:13
It just is.
17:14
You know, there's, there's no way around it.
17:17
So, but at the same time, you know, you're absolutely right that
17:20
things, there is also a point at which things must be addressed.
17:23
And it, what one is looking for is, is that happy medium.
17:27
Yeah.
17:27
So in your book, you know, how, how are you treading and your approach
17:32
as a therapist, how are you treading the line of that happy medium?
17:36
Because Yeah.
17:37
It's tempting to go all out into a woe is me fest.
17:43
Yeah.
17:43
And there are sometimes when one needs to put a tear in your beer kind of thing.
17:48
Right.
17:48
Amanda Atkins: But
17:49
Rupert Isaacson: what, talk to us about how you help people find that
17:55
middle line if indeed you do, or you know, and if you don't, what do you do?
17:59
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, I think humor is a huge part of my work often,
18:03
you know, and I think that's it.
18:04
It is so helpful.
18:06
You know, you sit down with somebody who's maybe very nervous or they have a lot of
18:10
emotion, they're feeling really sad and.
18:13
Humor just instantly lightens the energy.
18:16
Yeah.
18:16
It just instantly puts them at ease.
18:18
It's medicine and shows them it is, and shows them that I'm a real person.
18:22
Mm.
18:23
You know, like I, you know, I'm not judging them or we have to
18:26
find light in these situations.
18:28
Right.
18:28
Even on the hardest day, don't laugh, you'll
18:30
Rupert Isaacson: cry.
18:30
Love in it.
18:31
That's the Exactly.
18:32
Yeah.
18:32
Amanda Atkins: I, and I always know I'm really in trouble when I
18:35
sit down with a client that I feel like can't access humor when I feel
18:38
like they're totally stuck Yeah.
18:40
In the sadness.
18:41
And that does happen once in a while, and I feel very outta my element.
18:43
That's when I'm like, okay, we gotta think bigger picture here.
18:46
Like, you know,
18:47
Rupert Isaacson: do you automatically start making poo jokes?
18:49
Amanda Atkins: I, I, something, anything.
18:51
Yeah.
18:51
I just, and if, if they don't take the bait, I'm just
18:54
like, oh no, I'm in trouble.
18:55
What am I gonna do here?
18:55
But, you know.
18:56
Yeah.
18:56
Because usually you just feel a lightness when you make a joke and somebody.
19:01
You know, whether it's a little self-deprecating or
19:02
whatever it is, it, it just
19:04
Rupert Isaacson: helps.
19:04
Well, it's also bonding, right?
19:05
You know, it, it bonding.
19:06
Exactly.
19:07
It's the common humanity thing.
19:08
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
19:09
Rupert Isaacson: That's right.
19:09
Let's, let's go through this together.
19:12
Yeah.
19:12
I just wanna ask you a couple of questions about Asha.
19:14
That, so how's he doing now?
19:16
You told me he's 16.
19:17
Yeah.
19:18
I, I know various people with Pril, so I know that it can
19:20
Amanda Atkins: Oh,
19:21
Rupert Isaacson: I, I know that it can present quite differently.
19:24
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
19:25
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
19:25
How's it presented with him
19:27
Amanda Atkins: overall?
19:28
He really is doing well.
19:29
He's you know, he's a happy kid.
19:31
He's in real, in good health for the most part.
19:34
He's active for, the biggest thing that we struggle with it is like, sort of like
19:39
obsessions and schedule and perseveration and like, you know, that kind of thing.
19:46
So it's really difficult.
19:47
Like this past we were visiting, can you find
19:49
Rupert Isaacson: perseveration for those listeners?
19:50
Yeah.
19:50
So like,
19:51
Amanda Atkins: yep.
19:52
So basically like.
19:53
Focusing on the same thing over and over and over.
19:55
Yeah.
19:55
So for him it's always into the loop.
19:56
Yeah,
19:57
exactly.
19:57
It's like schedule or like, you know, there's certain
20:00
podcasts he likes to listen to.
20:01
Like, the new podcast come out today, I have to listen to it right now.
20:04
Or, you know, like just things that are like part of his routine
20:08
and if there's any deviation from it, we're kind of in trouble.
20:10
So it's really hard for our family to be flexible.
20:14
Vacations are really hard.
20:16
We do it, but it's, it is, everything's loaded and difficult, so, yeah.
20:22
But on the whole, he really is doing quite well.
20:24
He, he can read, he can write, he's, you know, he is verbal.
20:29
He's just Asher.
20:31
Rupert Isaacson: How, how is he presenting when it comes to the eating disorder?
20:36
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, the food thing is tricky.
20:37
He definitely, the, one of the tricky things about Asher is he's.
20:41
He's tall and he's quite thin.
20:43
He's like five foot seven and he is like 115 pounds.
20:47
Okay, so people don't necess.
20:48
Yeah.
20:49
Rupert Isaacson: So he's very thin.
20:50
Thin.
20:50
So he's not presenting as obese at all?
20:51
Amanda Atkins: He's not, he's not.
20:52
And you know, we've known about his diagnosis and is that, and that
20:54
Rupert Isaacson: because you are controlling things quite tightly?
20:56
Yes,
20:57
Amanda Atkins: yes.
20:57
And since he, since the day we got his diagnosis, we've
21:00
had a tight control on it.
21:01
It's tricky because other people look at that and they
21:03
think, oh, like he, you know,
21:05
yeah,
21:06
he can eat whatever and, but the reason he is that size is because
21:09
we've worked hard to keep him that way.
21:11
So he will, he will sneak food.
21:13
He definitely will.
21:14
You know, if there's, if there's something that he wants, he,
21:18
he will try and sneak it.
21:19
He can eat a lot at one time.
21:20
So it's just like a constant.
21:22
Rupert Isaacson: What about the dangerous stuff though, like,
21:24
medications, toothpaste, you know, he really is good with that.
21:27
Amanda Atkins: The only thing that you kind of have to
21:28
watch him with is toothpaste.
21:30
He does like to eat, is, he likes to eat toothpaste if you don't watch him.
21:33
But other than that, he is.
21:35
Safe for the, yeah, it just gotta keep an eye on him kind of thing.
21:39
Yeah.
21:39
Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think, why do you think his eating has been more
21:43
manageable for you guys and for him?
21:46
Amanda Atkins: I have no idea, and I would never even begin to
21:49
assume it's anything I've done.
21:51
I really don't.
21:51
I think it's genetic.
21:52
I think there's like so much genetic, just stuff about PWS that we don't,
21:58
I even feel like, I've told my husband this before, like, I don't
22:01
even think hunger is the right word.
22:03
I think it's an obsession.
22:05
I don't, I think hunger is not the right category for what they feel.
22:08
I think it's perseveration obsession.
22:11
I could be wrong.
22:12
Mm-hmm.
22:12
You know, other PWS families might disagree, but with me it azure's not,
22:16
it's like Azure has a fixation on it, but he has a fixation on a lot of things.
22:20
Rupert Isaacson: Sense.
22:21
What are his fixations?
22:22
Yeah.
22:23
Amanda Atkins: Oh my gosh.
22:23
Like certain TV shows that he's obsessed with.
22:27
The bus, he loves riding the bus to school every morning.
22:29
Like what time times, what time is the bus coming?
22:32
What time is this?
22:33
What time is this?
22:34
Very schedule oriented.
22:36
Do I have speech therapy tomorrow night?
22:38
Yeah.
22:39
That kind of thing.
22:39
Rupert Isaacson: What I, that, that I, sure I get, but I'm,
22:42
I'm going more for what, what's, what is passionate interests?
22:46
What are the things that, oh, passionate
22:47
Amanda Atkins: interests.
22:49
He loves Zoom calls.
22:50
Like, you know, he loves scheduling Zoom calls and doing them.
22:53
Honestly, that's probably his.
22:55
He has these two friends, Clara and Elle course.
22:58
They're like girls.
22:59
And he loves doing Zoom calls.
23:02
That's his favorite thing, to send them the link and then have them get on it.
23:06
And then just, and
23:07
Rupert Isaacson: are they, are they special needs as well
23:08
or are they No, they're not.
23:10
Amanda Atkins: They're neurotypical.
23:12
Rupert Isaacson: And then will he talk once he's on the call with them,
23:16
will he talk over and over about the same thing, or is it actually pretty
23:21
much a back and forth conversation?
23:22
Will he ask about them or is he talking about himself?
23:26
Amanda Atkins: I'm really trying to get him every time we do a Zoom
23:29
saying, Hey, let's come up with three questions we can ask ahead of time.
23:31
Because it's otherwise, it's really is just kind of one way.
23:34
And I like the, like social, like butterfly in me just
23:38
wants to be like, do it.
23:39
But then I'm trying to be like, he loves it.
23:40
Let him do his thing.
23:41
It's okay.
23:42
You know?
23:43
Rupert Isaacson: And when he's talking to these girls about himself Yeah.
23:47
What, what is he relating, what's he talking about?
23:50
Amanda Atkins: He's saying like, have you ever seen the show Big Bang Theory
23:54
Rupert Isaacson: Y?
23:55
No, but I have seen Young Sheldon, so,
23:57
Amanda Atkins: oh, it's Young Sheldon.
23:58
That's the show I'm talking about.
23:59
Oh my gosh.
24:00
Asher is, I was gonna say it's the spinoff.
24:02
Most people don't know young Sheldon.
24:03
Yeah.
24:03
Asher is obsessed with young Sheldon.
24:06
It's like, okay,
24:07
Rupert Isaacson: well that's kind of a good thing to be obsessed by.
24:08
Yeah,
24:09
Amanda Atkins: it is.
24:09
Exactly.
24:10
Yeah, exactly.
24:10
So he watches it, well, it's over now, but he watched it, you know, and he
24:14
watches reruns and now he watches the George and Mandy the like spinoff of it.
24:19
There's like another spinoff of young Sheldon that he watches.
24:22
And so he, one of his friends has also started watching the show.
24:25
So that's what they talk about.
24:26
Rupert Isaacson: Who were George and Mandy on?
24:27
Young Sheldon George
24:28
Amanda Atkins: and Mandy is, it's Sheldon's brother.
24:31
Okay.
24:31
The,
24:31
Rupert Isaacson: the rocket brother and the girlfriend Mandy.
24:33
Okay.
24:34
Ah, okay.
24:35
Yeah.
24:36
Alright.
24:36
Who's now
24:36
Amanda Atkins: a spinoff?
24:37
Rupert Isaacson: You know, I could see that though.
24:38
'cause we went through, like as a family this summer, a whole
24:43
like two months of watching Young Sheldon and I was watching it with
24:48
my two younger kids and they, yeah.
24:50
They were learning so much about American life through that show.
24:55
Amanda Atkins: Oh really?
24:56
Yeah.
24:56
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
24:56
So I, you know, oh.
24:57
'cause
24:57
Amanda Atkins: it's like, yeah, that shows to me that,
24:59
Rupert Isaacson: that Asha has quite good discernment.
25:03
Yeah, because it's a very philosophical show.
25:04
Yes.
25:05
Does he get that he sort of is young children?
25:08
Amanda Atkins: I don't know.
25:09
That's what I've always wondered.
25:10
I'm like, is that why he's drawn to it?
25:12
Because Sheldon, you know, I don't know.
25:14
He
25:14
Rupert Isaacson: doesn't, he doesn't articulate that.
25:15
Amanda Atkins: He doesn't seem to articulate it, but
25:17
I do wonder that as well.
25:18
Yeah.
25:20
Rupert Isaacson: And then how did he make these two friends, these two girlfriends,
25:23
Amanda Atkins: they're friends from grade school and they've just you know,
25:26
there was like a, like a Best Buddies program, so like where the regular
25:30
ed kids were connected with the kids in special ed and they just connected
25:34
through that and he stayed in touch.
25:35
They go to different schools now, but they, they've all stayed in
25:38
touch and they just really sweet.
25:40
Yeah, they're super sweet girls.
25:41
Yeah, yeah.
25:42
Yeah.
25:42
Awesome.
25:42
Rupert Isaacson: That's unusual.
25:44
Yeah.
25:44
'cause my son, when he went off to high school, you know, we, we homeschooled for
25:48
about 10 years and then he went off for his last two, three years into high school
25:51
and there was a Best Buddies program.
25:53
But I wouldn't say that the people who were in that really, I mean,
25:59
how could they follow through?
26:00
They were young as well.
26:02
Right, right.
26:02
You would said he wouldn't put any judgements on that, but I'm
26:05
impressed that these, yeah, so he must have a lot of charm.
26:09
Amanda Atkins: He really does have a lot of charm.
26:11
And he's very, he's funny.
26:13
He's super funny.
26:14
He has a great sense of humor.
26:17
He's a funny, can you gimme an
26:18
Rupert Isaacson: example?
26:20
Amanda Atkins: Oh my gosh.
26:20
It's all gonna be so embarrassing to me because it's all directed towards me.
26:24
But like yesterday we were, we were out somewhere and he saw, and we were with a
26:29
big group of people and he saw Chipotle, you know the restaurant Chipotle?
26:33
Yeah.
26:33
Yeah.
26:33
And he looks at me and we're with this big group pee.
26:35
And he goes, mom, whenever you eat Chipotle, you fart in front of this big.
26:41
And then he's laughing and pointing at me, and I'm just like, Asher,
26:45
can you, like, we're in p Can you, you know, like he just knows how to
26:48
like, make fun of me and loves like, kind of like the, you know, like,
26:53
yeah, mom makes you fart, doesn't it?
26:54
Like, it's just like, oh, why did I ever tell you that?
26:57
Rupert Isaacson: But that means that the autistic side of his Prada vili,
27:02
because again, for those listeners and viewers who don't know Prada
27:06
Vili, it comes with cognitive yep.
27:08
Let's say deficits as well.
27:11
But these are on a huge spectrum.
27:13
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
27:13
Rupert Isaacson: And, but if he is making those jokes at your expense, that shows
27:17
that he has a sense of perspective, theory of mind and irony, which is
27:23
putting him like way on the upper scale.
27:25
That's
27:25
Amanda Atkins: right.
27:26
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
27:26
Amanda Atkins: that's such a good point.
27:27
If you
27:28
Rupert Isaacson: get, if a kid, if somebody teases you, it means that they
27:32
have gone through that crucial milestone of theory of mind and false belief.
27:36
And again, for listeners who don't know that what that is is this is, and this
27:41
is a bit of a holy grail if you're sort of an autism parent that in neurotypical
27:45
kids, somewhere around two and a half to three, let's say your kid is loves horses
27:50
and is looking at a magazine with a horse picture and it goes, look, mommy a horsey.
27:55
And they hold it up, but they're looking at it.
27:57
They sort of think you can see what they see even though they can't.
28:00
And then somewhere around two and a half to three.
28:03
The brain will go through this development called theory of Mind and
28:05
false Belief where they'll turn it around and go, look, mommy a horsey.
28:08
They know that you see something different to what they see.
28:11
And we, in the work that we do with Horse Boy Method and Movement Method, have all
28:16
these methods for kind of kick starting theory of mind because we've realized that
28:20
if you can help someone who is challenged with that, through that milestone, then
28:26
the neuroplasticity really opens up and their brain kind of starts to kind of
28:34
get more and more neurotypical esque.
28:36
And it sounds like you are, even if they've had quite a, quite a severe
28:40
start, nonverbal, all of that.
28:42
So it, it sounds like Asher's really gone through that.
28:44
Was there a time when he didn't have that, do you think?
28:46
Can you discern when that shift happened?
28:50
Amanda Atkins: It feels like, you know, it took him a long time to be.
28:52
He has, he also has apraxia of speech, so there's a lot of like
28:56
speech stuff going on with him.
28:58
And.
28:59
I think some of it was when he was able to actually art, like the difference of when
29:02
he could articulate words versus when he couldn't, you know, I feel like he wasn't
29:06
really able to talk to where we could understand him until maybe five or six.
29:10
And then probably like 7, 8, 9, he started to be able to put
29:13
together a few more complex ideas.
29:15
He's always been a funny kid that, that, that likes humor and likes teasing.
29:20
I would say even before he wa he was very playful and liked
29:24
to tease and that kind of thing.
29:25
And probably 'cause it's a lot of, you know, our energy in the house.
29:28
We ha we have a very silly, funny household.
29:32
But I feel like maybe when, let's say when he was probably nine or 10, I would
29:36
say maybe he was able to start like making more like directed kind of like
29:41
jokes and teasing and that kind of thing.
29:43
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
29:44
Yeah.
29:45
I'm thinking about the proud of Willie Kidd that I know best.
29:48
Amanda Atkins: Mm.
29:48
He
29:49
Rupert Isaacson: is a, a, a child in Germany actually.
29:52
And I met him when he was four.
29:55
And he had the, he had quite a severely autistic presentation,
30:00
like Asher, he wasn't fat.
30:03
He
30:04
Amanda Atkins: yeah,
30:04
Rupert Isaacson: he was quite skinny kid, productive, two tall, skinny parents.
30:08
However, they also, like you were saying, manage it very, very carefully.
30:14
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
30:14
Rupert Isaacson: And it's very tough in, in Germany 'cause Germany's
30:17
a, a very sugar friendly culture.
30:20
Amanda Atkins: Oh, interesting.
30:20
Yeah.
30:21
Yeah.
30:21
And
30:21
Rupert Isaacson: baked goods and that sort of, and it's a way that
30:23
people show love and affection.
30:24
It's by giving.
30:25
That's right.
30:25
So it's, it's very tough.
30:27
And he's had a very tough time in school and so on, but I was
30:31
doing equine therapy with him and he was heading for hospital to.
30:35
Have his hips opened up.
30:37
Mm-hmm.
30:37
He had, yeah.
30:38
Again, for those listeners that are unfamiliar, there can be all these
30:42
physical things that go with Prada as well, including sort of very
30:45
tight mouthful, hips, et cetera.
30:47
And he threw all the time on the horse didn't need the surgery.
30:52
And the doctor's like, what, what are you guys doing?
30:54
Something's you've done something.
30:55
And they said, well, we've been doing this horse thing.
30:57
And well, it, it worked for him.
30:59
And because he could then hang out at the barn, there were other kids and
31:06
he went from being a very isolated kid to a somewhat socialized kid.
31:11
And now the last time I met him, I was like, wow, you are, wow.
31:14
You're actually really doing quite well.
31:16
And he was starting to do that.
31:17
He's, he's, he's about 10 now.
31:19
11.
31:20
Okay.
31:20
Also starting to tease me a bit and
31:22
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
31:22
Yeah.
31:23
Rupert Isaacson: I was like, Ooh, this is a good sign.
31:24
Amanda Atkins: I love that.
31:25
So
31:26
Rupert Isaacson: would you say, you know, I, I've, I've, I've read.
31:30
Some of those parts of your book where you talk about the early overwhelm
31:35
because he was very premature.
31:36
Mm-hmm.
31:37
You know, he was in the ICU, you were disenfranchised as a mum because
31:41
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
31:41
Rupert Isaacson: You know, you couldn't care for your kid.
31:43
You didn't know if he was gonna make it.
31:45
Then he makes it, but now he's got this fucking thing and you realize
31:49
this thing is gonna put a boot through your forehead, you know?
31:54
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
31:54
Rupert Isaacson: And your husband's forehead and everything else.
31:57
Do you still feel that sense, same sense of overwhelm?
32:00
Or are you through that, do you think?
32:03
Or do you think
32:04
Amanda Atkins: I think I through it.
32:06
I really do think I'm through it at this point.
32:08
I mean, it comes and goes, right?
32:09
Like there's different, I have different levels of fear, you know,
32:13
I think about the future, like what's the future gonna look like for him?
32:16
Yeah.
32:16
What's it gonna look like for our family?
32:19
But I do have a more of a sense of like, stability now than I used to.
32:23
Like I, I feel, and maybe it's because I'm rooted in my career and who I
32:28
am, you know, I'm not, I'm not in my twenties now, I'm in my forties now.
32:31
You know, it feels more, I feel more rooted as a person as well.
32:35
And have seen a little bit how life has shaken out a little bit.
32:39
You know, there's still lots of unknowns, but
32:41
Rupert Isaacson: What do you think will be his future long term?
32:44
Amanda Atkins: I do think after you are dead,
32:45
Rupert Isaacson: basically.
32:46
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
32:46
Yeah.
32:47
I think our, the plan is to, to have him in, in a residential home.
32:52
Maybe to start a residential home for some people with PWS.
32:57
Yeah.
32:57
I think that's sort of where, that would be the ideal.
33:00
There's enough people in the Chicago community with kids about Asher's age that
33:05
will need more, to be perfectly honest.
33:07
Rupert Isaacson: You're gonna have to do that.
33:08
Amanda Atkins: That's seems what it seems like.
33:10
Right.
33:11
Rupert Isaacson: And do you, do you feel a sense of relief that he now has siblings?
33:17
Amanda Atkins: I do, but also I'm so hyper aware of not putting
33:21
expectations that like I don't
33:23
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
33:23
But so worry about that.
33:24
If he didn't have 'em, he'd be Yes.
33:27
All by himself.
33:28
Yes.
33:28
And yes.
33:29
Amanda Atkins: Yes, yes.
33:29
Rupert Isaacson: De if he's got people who've got his back,
33:32
Amanda Atkins: yes.
33:32
De
33:32
Rupert Isaacson: This does make a huge difference, you know, I asked
33:35
these questions because these were the things that went through my mind
33:38
and when my son was, you know, right up until 13, he didn't have siblings.
33:46
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
33:47
Rupert Isaacson: And this kept me awake at night.
33:49
Amanda Atkins: So are his siblings full siblings?
33:51
Or half?
33:51
Rupert Isaacson: No, they're half siblings.
33:53
Did that
33:53
Amanda Atkins: bother you at all or did that feel any different way or No?
33:56
Rupert Isaacson: No.
33:56
No.
33:56
And in fact, in some ways it worked out beautifully because we
34:00
couldn't have coped his mom and I in those early years because his.
34:06
Anyway, we were later parents, so she wasn't gonna have another child.
34:10
Amanda Atkins: Mm.
34:10
Rupert Isaacson: But it was so severe, it was so all encompassing that we couldn't
34:16
have, we just couldn't have done it.
34:18
Yeah.
34:18
So, then when he ended up with siblings at 13, there was this part
34:27
of me that went, oh, that's beautiful because he's had his childhood.
34:32
Amanda Atkins: Mm.
34:33
Rupert Isaacson: You know, now he will have siblings who are
34:38
like half a generation younger.
34:40
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
34:40
So when
34:41
Rupert Isaacson: he's 80, they'll be 65.
34:43
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
34:43
Right.
34:44
You know,
34:44
Rupert Isaacson: that's, that does give me a sense of Wow.
34:48
Yeah.
34:49
After I die there will be people who have the stamina.
34:54
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, that's right.
34:55
No,
34:55
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, he's very, very independent.
34:57
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, he
35:00
Rupert Isaacson: just sold his house last year and he got his own.
35:02
Oh,
35:02
Amanda Atkins: that's awesome.
35:03
Rupert Isaacson: He lives between Europe and America and he has three
35:07
jobs and he, you know, but he's still very, very vulnerable in many ways.
35:10
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
35:11
Rupert Isaacson: He's someone that does rely upon community support.
35:13
But when I was also, you know, you said he'll probably go into group home
35:17
and then from there you went, we'll probably have to do the group home.
35:21
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
35:21
Yeah.
35:21
Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I got, so what I often advise people on when I'm
35:27
consulting with people on special needs staff is saying you are either going to
35:31
be a service user or a service provider.
35:34
Amanda Atkins: Mm.
35:34
You're
35:35
Rupert Isaacson: either going to be a consumer of services
35:37
or you're going to mm-hmm.
35:38
Learn how to be the service.
35:39
Mm-hmm.
35:40
But you will be in that sphere.
35:43
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
35:44
Rupert Isaacson: So it's up to you which one is it going to be?
35:47
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
35:48
Rupert Isaacson: And for some people, they definitely would rather be a service user.
35:52
Amanda Atkins: Mm.
35:53
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe it's 'cause I'm a control freak, but if there's a service,
35:56
I want to be the service, you know?
35:57
Yeah.
35:58
Amanda Atkins: Same.
35:58
Rupert Isaacson: So the, the, within this world of horse boy movement
36:02
method, there's many parents like me and like you who have done just that.
36:08
Yeah.
36:08
And we are a whole network and each of us does it rather differently because each
36:13
of our children was a different context.
36:17
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
36:17
Rupert Isaacson: But we all help each other and are part of an
36:22
organization that can source funding and that sort of, but this has all
36:28
happened organically over 15 years.
36:30
Of course, because Yeah,
36:31
Amanda Atkins: because they had to.
36:32
Right?
36:32
Because it had to.
36:33
Because they had to, to,
36:33
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
36:34
So what are your plans?
36:35
What do you envisage this home, this community looking like and
36:42
what's gonna be your role and what's gonna be your husband's?
36:44
I haven't even asked you about your husband does, by the way.
36:47
What does he do and Yeah,
36:48
Amanda Atkins: he is an accountant, so, okay.
36:50
Money Sandy.
36:52
Which is great.
36:52
Yeah.
36:52
So can do,
36:53
Rupert Isaacson: you can
36:54
Amanda Atkins: do all the, the total opposite of that.
36:55
Yes.
36:55
Yeah.
36:56
I like to spend and I like feelings, so Yeah.
37:00
So it works
37:03
because you not like feeling Right.
37:06
Exactly.
37:07
It's a win-win.
37:07
I dunno, I think for me the biggest thing is just simply safety.
37:11
Safety and like friendship.
37:13
Like that's all I want him to have, you know, that's feel what feels
37:15
most important to me with him.
37:16
And so food safety of course feels important and I don't think you can find
37:21
that in your average residential home.
37:22
It's just such a unique thing to PWS that it feels like that would
37:26
have to be such a specialty of it.
37:29
But, you know, it's important to me that he gets outside.
37:32
It's important to me that he's moving his body, that he's around
37:36
other people that care for him.
37:38
Rupert Isaacson: Are you looking, are you looking at precedent?
37:39
Are you looking at examples of other places?
37:41
Amanda Atkins: Not yet.
37:43
Should I be?
37:43
I should be, huh?
37:44
Rupert Isaacson: Oh yeah.
37:45
You definitely
37:46
Amanda Atkins: should be.
37:47
Rupert Isaacson: But make it fun.
37:48
Amanda Atkins: Yeah,
37:49
Rupert Isaacson: I could point you to some.
37:51
Okay.
37:51
And actually, if anyone is listening, who's in this sort of position, one
37:56
of the first things which I would really encourage people to look
38:00
at other Camp Hill communities.
38:02
Amanda Atkins: Hmm.
38:03
Rupert Isaacson: So Camp Hill is one word, and they've been around for about
38:07
a hundred years, since the twenties.
38:09
But they're in, they're all over the world.
38:10
I think they're in 40 countries or more.
38:13
And they are Steiner inspired.
38:17
If people know who Rudolph Steiner was, people have heard of Waldo schools.
38:21
He was the guy that came up with Waldo schools.
38:24
He was also the guy that came up with a, an early form of organic
38:27
farming which is big in Germany.
38:30
He came up with many cool things, but he's mostly known for the Waldorf schools.
38:33
But Camp Hill was sort of, inspired by his approach, but people with special
38:40
needs living in rural communities that are safe havens and have their own economy.
38:47
And when I was sort of looking at the early stages of Horse Boy and
38:51
knowing that some of these people who I was training were gonna end up
38:56
doing residential places, I often look to that as a sort of a good working
39:03
model that stood the test of time.
39:05
And my, that was gonna be my, my next question is, are you envisaging
39:09
something that is rural or urban?
39:12
Amanda Atkins: Well, you know, I live in such an urban area in Chicago,
39:15
so I do feel urban because I want it to be somewhat close to me.
39:23
Spots.
39:24
Rupert Isaacson: Well,
39:24
Amanda Atkins: if, if the listener could see your face.
39:27
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
39:27
Yeah.
39:27
Well they will.
39:28
'cause it's on YouTube too.
39:29
There you go.
39:29
So warn you put some clothes on right.
39:36
As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm an autism dad and we have
39:41
a whole career before this podcast in helping people with neurodivergence,
39:48
either who are professionals in the field.
39:51
Are you a therapist?
39:52
Are you a caregiver?
39:53
Are you a parent?
39:55
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?
39:58
When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004,
40:03
I really didn't know what to do.
40:05
So I reached out for mentorship, and I found it through an amazing adult
40:11
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.
40:13
Temple Grandin.
40:15
And she told me what to do.
40:16
And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years.
40:21
That not only is my son basically independent, but we've helped
40:26
countless, countless thousands of others reach the same goal.
40:30
Working in schools, working at home, working in therapy settings.
40:35
If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed
40:39
approach, it's called Movement Method.
40:42
You can learn it online, you can learn it very, very simply.
40:45
It's almost laughably simple.
40:49
The important thing is to begin.
40:52
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.
40:55
Grandin and see what results can follow.
41:00
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.
41:05
com Sign up as a gold member.
41:08
Take the online movement method course.
41:11
It's in 40 countries.
41:13
Let us know how it goes for you.
41:15
We really want to know.
41:16
We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there
41:21
live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens.
41:25
Things tend to go better if they're in the country.
41:27
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
41:28
Rupert Isaacson: Because nature is the habitat that the human
41:31
organism is supposed to be in.
41:34
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
41:34
Rupert Isaacson: So when you have a human organism that is impacted and
41:40
requires easily, easily thrown off the
41:46
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
41:46
Off
41:46
Rupert Isaacson: kilter, the fewer bad sensory triggers you can have, the better.
41:51
Mm-hmm.
41:52
Right?
41:52
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
41:52
And
41:52
Rupert Isaacson: then of course there's vulnerability.
41:54
You know, cities are dangerous places on human terms.
41:57
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
41:58
Rupert Isaacson: And, so I definitely favor the rural.
42:01
And then the other thing is, of course you have cross species stuff as well, so
42:05
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
42:06
Mm-hmm.
42:06
Rupert Isaacson: People are always happier actually when they're surrounded
42:08
by animals and plants because mm-hmm.
42:10
That is again, what our species are supposed to do right.
42:14
And as you know, sort of cities are somewhat adult playgrounds, um mm-hmm.
42:19
But they're redesigned for neurotypical a adults with careers.
42:22
Amanda Atkins: True.
42:23
Yeah.
42:23
Yeah, yeah.
42:23
Rupert Isaacson: But, you know, for kids or for people with special
42:25
needs or whatever, you know, they, they often don't go so well.
42:28
But that doesn't mean that you necessarily have to live in that community, but
42:32
you might be its director, you know.
42:34
Amanda Atkins: Right, right, right, right.
42:35
Rupert Isaacson: And it's, you know, the reason listeners why we met is through our
42:40
mutual friendly Leanna Tank who's been on the show's, who's one of my great heroes.
42:45
Mm-hmm.
42:45
And Leanna works in the group homes of.
42:48
Michigan with a criminally insane population, you know?
42:52
Yeah.
42:52
And really knows how the nervous system in the brain really work together.
42:59
And what sort of, what works and what doesn't.
43:01
But, you know, I know we strayed a bit from your book, but the, this
43:07
type of conversation for any parent who's got special needs, these are
43:11
the conversations one has to have.
43:13
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
43:14
Rupert Isaacson: And when I feel that we are dealing with how do
43:17
we handle more than we can handle it's by coming up with solutions.
43:22
That's right.
43:23
You know, there, there is this kind of thing within therapy of saying,
43:27
well, don't go into fix it mode.
43:28
You know, just.
43:29
Tell me, you know, how hard it's, but I can't do that.
43:32
My That's right.
43:34
Genetic is about fixing.
43:36
And I, I've been in that situation.
43:37
People say, well just sit with your feelings for a while.
43:39
I'm like, no, I'm gonna go out there.
43:42
And, and that is how I sit with my feelings, please.
43:46
Well, and maybe, yeah.
43:47
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
43:48
And maybe, maybe you take action first and then you can reflect on your feelings.
43:53
Yeah, exactly.
43:53
That is probably more the reflection there somewhere.
43:55
Yeah.
43:55
But the action has to be there too.
43:57
We have to, right.
43:58
Rupert Isaacson: And I feel if I don't start with action, then I am
44:04
much more vulnerable to despair.
44:07
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
44:08
Rupert Isaacson: But I do know that not everyone is like me.
44:10
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
44:11
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, I dunno if you ever saw that.
44:13
There was a really funny skit came out about 10 or 15 years ago, and
44:19
it's a boyfriend and a girlfriend and.
44:22
She's saying, I've got these headaches, and she's got this nail
44:25
sticking out of the front of her head.
44:27
And her boyfriend says, well, you've got a nail.
44:30
Don't, don't try to fix it.
44:31
Don't try to just, you know, I just need you to be with me.
44:34
I just need, and he's like, completely confused.
44:36
And then he gets it.
44:38
He says, oh, that must be very hard.
44:43
And she goes, and she goes, yes, thank you.
44:45
Yes it is.
44:46
Yes it is.
44:46
And then she turns ahead because she bangs the nail on the thing goes, ow, ow.
44:49
He goes, well, I could just say no.
44:51
Stop trying to fix it.
44:54
It's so good.
44:56
But you, how do you dance that dance?
44:58
Because, you know, you, you are, there's, you personally.
45:03
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
45:03
You
45:03
Rupert Isaacson: writing that book to some degree is taking action.
45:06
You becoming a therapist was taking action, right?
45:10
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
45:12
Rupert Isaacson: Talk, just talk to me about your relationship with.
45:16
Action versus sitting with feelings.
45:18
And how, how, how's that played out for you and and how's it
45:21
played out for your husband?
45:23
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, I, I mean, I'm, I'm a very action oriented person.
45:27
You're right.
45:28
Like writing the book came from a place of being like, I feel
45:31
like I have to do something.
45:33
And everybody has like a different degree of how comfortable they feel.
45:38
Expressing emotion.
45:39
Acknowledging emotion, you know, like how you even started off
45:43
our talk today, like asking about almost like my, my family of origin.
45:46
Like, you know, what is, how were you taught to feel feelings?
45:51
Were you taught to feel feelings?
45:53
Mm-hmm.
45:54
You know, were you taught that certain feelings were safe and acceptable
45:58
and certain feelings weren't?
46:00
And you know, I think that's the starting point for me.
46:04
You know, you said you start with action.
46:07
I tend to start with feelings first, understand what I'm feeling.
46:11
And it, for me, an emotion is almost like a.
46:14
It's almost like a sixth sense to me.
46:16
Like an emotion helps inform me on what action I need to take.
46:20
Not everybody's wired that way, but for me, if I'm feeling anger about something,
46:24
that's generally a sign that something feels unjust or that I feel wronged.
46:28
And so that usually means I need to do something to whether I need to
46:32
talk to somebody or do something.
46:33
Or maybe I just need to chill and, you know, process it a little bit.
46:37
But oftentimes my emotions are like leaders for me.
46:42
Maybe that's a, maybe that's not such a good thing, but, but it is.
46:45
And I try to have sound mind when I'm making decisions about things, but I'm
46:49
definitely an action oriented person, but I tend to, my feelings tend to lead
46:54
me or at least be more of a sixth sense to tell me what action I need to take.
46:59
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
46:59
And I, I would say that's fair.
47:00
To be honest.
47:01
I'd, I'd say that that is me too.
47:03
Amanda Atkins: Hmm.
47:03
Rupert Isaacson: But it's,
47:06
it.
47:08
I, I feel that once I've identified them, I want to, I want to do,
47:13
because that in itself is therapeutic.
47:15
Definitely is healing.
47:18
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
47:18
That makes sense.
47:19
That I definitely, I feel the same way.
47:21
And sometimes doing just means going for a walk, going for a run.
47:25
Yeah.
47:25
Like sometimes doing doesn't mean, you know, action, like advocacy, doing.
47:31
So sometimes it's just like, what do I need in, in the realm
47:34
of like, whether it's self care, just simply like living, you know?
47:39
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
47:40
It's interesting.
47:40
Yeah.
47:40
I mean, you know, I, I asked about your son's passionate interests.
47:43
I feel that when you're a special needs parent, you
47:45
really need to look at your own.
47:48
Yes.
47:48
'cause they will get you through.
47:50
Obviously I like horses.
47:51
So mm-hmm.
47:52
If you put me around ponies, I tend to not dwell on myself and just get rid of pony.
47:59
That is therapeutic.
48:01
Everyone hopefully has their thing.
48:04
But to prioritize that thing, I feel is of paramount importance when you are
48:12
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
48:13
Rupert Isaacson: Being called upon to find resources
48:16
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
48:16
Rupert Isaacson: Greater than the norm.
48:17
Mm-hmm.
48:18
Amanda Atkins: Because
48:19
Rupert Isaacson: some, you've got to draw on those resources from somewhere.
48:22
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
48:22
What is,
48:23
Rupert Isaacson: what is putting those resources into you?
48:25
What puts the resources into you as, as a mom?
48:28
What, what are your passionate interests?
48:30
Amanda Atkins: Well, I also love horses.
48:32
Not as much, not I, not as, I'm not as involved as you are, but
48:35
I do, you know, if I can ever
48:38
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, cool.
48:39
Amanda Atkins: I do love a horse with people.
48:40
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
48:41
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
48:41
Whenever I, whenever I, you know, living in the city, I have to drive
48:44
a little bit to be around a horse.
48:45
So
48:45
Rupert Isaacson: this is a no brainer, you're saying, well, I want to do
48:47
a, a, a, a group home for my child in the city, yet I love horses.
48:52
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
48:53
Rupert Isaacson: Dot, dot.
48:54
I know.
48:55
Amanda Atkins: I know.
48:56
I know.
48:56
It's like, okay, so,
48:57
Rupert Isaacson: so do you, do you make sure that you get out to spend
49:00
time with horses as much as you can?
49:02
Amanda Atkins: Yes, I do as much as I can.
49:04
And, you know, some, I'm having a hard day some days and I'm like,
49:08
I just need to kiss a horse.
49:09
I just need to kiss a horse.
49:10
So, you know, do what I can that weekend to make it happen.
49:13
I love exercising.
49:14
I love moving my body.
49:15
I just recently bought like a, it's not a Vespa, but like a Vespa, a little
49:19
scooter that I like to scoot around town, and that's been super fun for me.
49:23
Yeah.
49:23
You know, being with friends, listening to music, writing, there's lots and
49:28
lots of things that bring me joy.
49:30
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that was the, that was the word I was about to ask.
49:33
It's joy and
49:34
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, exactly.
49:35
Rupert Isaacson: It, this is the most important, the most important thing.
49:41
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
49:43
Mm-hmm.
49:43
And
49:43
Rupert Isaacson: of course, when you are in that early stage, I know you
49:46
write about this in your book of how you deal with the grief, the grief of.
49:51
The death of those dreams.
49:52
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
49:53
Rupert Isaacson: And also the absolute terror of what is to come.
49:57
Yeah.
49:57
You know, how am I going to meet the challenge of this, you know?
50:01
Mm-hmm.
50:01
Because I just, I know what an idiot I am, you know, like mm-hmm.
50:04
I'm not built for this.
50:05
I'm not strong enough for this.
50:06
I'm not, you know, how on earth am I gonna do Yeah.
50:09
That, you know, and of course then you end up doing it, you know?
50:13
But joy
50:18
is,
50:22
if one isn't living a joyful life, then one isn't really living.
50:25
And it doesn't mean that every moment can necessarily be joyful.
50:28
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
50:28
But if that,
50:29
Rupert Isaacson: but if that is the,
50:32
if that's where one's focuses and one places a really high value on it, then one
50:41
is going to experience more of it than if one didn't, and it's gonna pull through.
50:45
Yeah.
50:46
When you have your.
50:49
Clients coming in and they are in that
50:52
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
50:52
Rupert Isaacson: Grief, funk, terror mode.
50:56
How do you help to orient them back to joy?
51:01
Amanda Atkins: It's such a good question.
51:02
I think it's, I think that's like the most important question, honestly.
51:05
And you would be shocked at how many people I meet with and I say
51:09
exactly what you just asked me.
51:11
You know, what brings you joy?
51:12
Where do you find meaning?
51:13
And they cannot come up with an answer.
51:17
You know, they might be able to tell me what used to bring them
51:19
joy or things that they like doing.
51:23
But then when I say, well, when's the last time you did that?
51:25
You know, years.
51:28
You know, when's the last time that you.
51:31
You know, something simple.
51:33
Oh, I love going for a walk with my dog.
51:34
Okay, well, how often do you do that?
51:36
Well, I don't know if I really don't have time to do it between this and that.
51:40
And I do understand that, you know, like we, time is, it's hard to find
51:45
time for things when parents are busy, but I do firmly believe that we make
51:49
time for what we want to make time for.
51:52
And so I, I encourage parents to put it in your schedule.
51:57
You know, it takes some of the sexiness out of it when Yeah.
51:59
You have to,
52:00
sure.
52:00
You know.
52:01
Put it in your calendar, but who cares?
52:03
Like if, if you look at my weekly calendar, it's like workout the,
52:07
you know, horses on a Saturday.
52:09
It's all in the schedule.
52:11
Yes, it's not spontaneous and it's not sexy, but it's in
52:13
there and I'm making it happen.
52:14
And you know, I think really helping parents determine what
52:18
is it that brings them joy?
52:20
What are they passionate about?
52:22
I always ask parents, where do you find your meaning in life?
52:26
I mean, it sounds like such a big question, but I think it's an important
52:29
question to be able to have an answer to.
52:31
And also, how has this parenting journey changed you?
52:34
Because I think part of where we find meaning is identifying how has
52:38
this shaped me without judgment.
52:40
Like, it's not, it's not, oh, it's made me, it's made me
52:44
into a, you know, this bad way.
52:47
Let's shift that to say, okay, it's made me more, yes, maybe it's it.
52:51
A lot of parents will say, I've become more anxious.
52:55
I become more anxious by this parenting journey.
52:57
'cause I've realized all these bad things can happen.
52:59
So, you know, I would wanna work with a parent on like,
53:02
well, what, what does that mean?
53:05
Like, what?
53:05
What do you mean to feel more?
53:06
Yes.
53:06
You feel worried about things.
53:08
Is there another way to look at that?
53:09
You feel more aware of suffering.
53:11
You feel that you can now, you know, you're now more attuned
53:14
to the suffering in the world.
53:16
Yes.
53:16
That's a sad thing, but can we look at that and also look at that
53:19
in a way that's actually helpful for humanity, helpful for people?
53:23
Right?
53:23
You, you notice differences.
53:24
Now you're more attuned to people that are different from you.
53:27
Like, isn't that a win in the grand scheme of things, you know?
53:30
So when I'm working with a parent around this, I like to help.
53:33
Identify what is it that causes them joy, which is oftentimes,
53:37
like I said, you would think that that would be an easy answer.
53:40
But oftentimes, particularly for moms, I find that that is not something
53:44
that people can easily answer.
53:46
And number two, where are you finding meaning in your life and what,
53:48
what brings you meaning in life?
53:50
Those are the two questions that I always want people to be able to Do you
53:52
Rupert Isaacson: find that they can tell you what did used to bring them joy?
53:55
Or do some of them actually say, you know, I've never really had anything.
54:00
Amanda Atkins: People can usually tell me what used to bring them joy.
54:02
Oh.
54:02
I used to like going out with my friends.
54:04
I used to like listening to music, but they feel so disconnected
54:07
from that version of themselves.
54:09
Mm-hmm.
54:12
Rupert Isaacson: Now you are lucky in one big regard.
54:15
You have a successful marriage, at least so far.
54:18
Yes.
54:19
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
54:19
Rupert Isaacson: What you and I both know is that at least 80% of special
54:25
needs marriages don't make the cut.
54:27
Amanda Atkins: Now
54:27
Rupert Isaacson: 50% of marriages don't make the cuts, so That's right.
54:31
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
54:31
Rupert Isaacson: But nonetheless there's an awful lot of single parents out there.
54:35
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
54:36
Rupert Isaacson: And when that hits, then the overwhelm goes
54:39
into just a whole other sphere.
54:41
Yep.
54:42
And yeah, quite likely there may not be time for much.
54:46
That's right.
54:47
When you've got someone in that position, of course the need for
54:52
the choice is even more acute.
54:54
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
54:55
Rupert Isaacson: Because the potential for burnout is so much higher.
54:58
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
54:59
Rupert Isaacson: Do what are the tools that you help people with,
55:04
particularly in that situation?
55:05
Yeah.
55:06
Amanda Atkins: I think a big part of that is, is intentionally developing community.
55:10
You know, so it's, it's not, yes, you're a single parent and.
55:15
The demands are huge, right?
55:17
But that there is somebody may maybe co-parent is, is
55:21
totally out of the picture.
55:22
You know, maybe you have a horrible relationship with co-parent and
55:24
you're not even willing to go to an IEP meeting with them.
55:26
I don't know what the situation is, you know?
55:27
But
55:28
yeah.
55:29
Where can you find community that, that you can find people that you
55:33
can, you know, go eat dinner with on a Sunday with their family, that they do
55:37
understand your child, that you feel seen.
55:41
This is not easy, you know, for a million reasons nowadays, but I do think it's
55:47
something that we have to intentionally be seeking and, you know, a modern, certainly
55:52
modern American culture is not structured, you know, with community in mind.
55:58
We're very isolated.
55:59
Yeah.
56:00
And it's a huge problem.
56:01
And so.
56:02
If you're not, especially like if you're non-religious.
56:05
Right?
56:06
Because I think religious people can find it within their, that's, that's I
56:09
think, can be a strength of people who are religious is that they can go to their
56:12
church or their synagogue or whatever and perhaps find like significant community.
56:17
But in the absence of that, like, yeah, where do we go to find community?
56:23
It is hard.
56:23
It's really hard, especially in a city of, I mean, in America, period.
56:26
You know?
56:28
Rupert Isaacson: So again, yeah.
56:29
What, what are the tools?
56:31
For example, yeah, I could, I could, 'cause I, I deal with this as well.
56:35
I, I could tell you some of the tools that I give.
56:38
Yeah.
56:38
Because the, the, the obstacles that you just brought our
56:42
attention to are very real.
56:44
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
56:45
Rupert Isaacson: It's one thing to say you need community, it's
56:48
a whole other thing to find it.
56:49
Mm-hmm.
56:50
So how do people help people to find it?
56:54
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
56:54
I think that's where it comes.
56:57
There's like a bravery in that.
56:58
Mm-hmm.
56:59
You know,
56:59
talk, like talking, talking to another mom at school pickup, inviting a mom
57:05
and her kid over for dinner some night.
57:07
Like, there's a lot of bravery and that's required and planning.
57:12
So if I was sitting with a parent, I might say, okay, let's go through what
57:14
your schedule looks like and let's identify a few people that maybe you
57:17
could start to build relationships with.
57:19
Okay.
57:20
What does communication look like with them?
57:21
How do you initiate, what fears come up around that?
57:25
Like it's, you know, do you feel nervous that they're not gonna
57:27
want, you know, that kind of thing.
57:28
Mm.
57:28
So really just like talking through how do we build relationships
57:32
in a way that's, those are,
57:33
Rupert Isaacson: those are very solid tools actually.
57:36
That's, that's to, to, to say are there actually people that you can identify?
57:42
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
57:42
Rupert Isaacson: They're another mom who you feel that there could be a vibe with.
57:46
Yeah.
57:47
Do you, do you see people becoming successful with this?
57:50
On the home.
57:51
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, I do.
57:52
It's, it's so loaded because it's, there's so many things that go into this.
57:56
It's like, I can give you skills, like, how do we initiate
58:00
hanging out with somebody?
58:02
You know, who do you entrust to take care of your kids so
58:04
that you can get time away?
58:05
Mm-hmm.
58:05
But,
58:06
you know, it's, there's personality comes into a fact, like, you know, how
58:10
are there interpersonal relationships?
58:12
How are their skills?
58:13
There's only so much coaching I can do there.
58:15
You know, but I think helping people be brave enough to take the first step
58:20
and helping them identify what, on the big picture, what's your goals?
58:23
Okay.
58:24
You wanna have, let's say your goal is you wanna have another mom in the
58:27
community that you can, you can watch their kid for a little bit and they
58:32
can go do something and then they can watch your kid for a little bit.
58:35
And you can go do something and have some alone time or go to
58:38
class or whatever like that.
58:39
Okay, well let's think about, let's really break this down and, 'cause I
58:42
think people look at these situations and they feel so overwhelmed, oh,
58:46
nobody could ever watch my kid.
58:48
You know, or, but it's like, okay, let's step into reality and let's confront
58:52
this and look at it in a way and actually come up with some ideas where
58:55
maybe we can help solve this problem.
58:56
So it's not such a big overarching anxiety.
59:01
Rupert Isaacson: The majority of people that are reading your book and coming
59:05
to you as clients, I presume are moms.
59:08
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
59:10
Rupert Isaacson: What's the percentage of dads?
59:14
Amanda Atkins: Oh, I mean, I would say maybe 10% Dads.
59:18
There definitely are dads.
59:20
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
59:21
Amanda Atkins: The book is written in a really non-gendered
59:24
way, so a dad could read it.
59:26
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
59:27
Yeah, just we know it's gonna be 90% women reading it and a lot
59:30
of the dads who read it will be told to read it by their spouses.
59:35
Which is a good thing.
59:36
Yeah.
59:36
Do you get the single dad coming to you?
59:46
Amanda Atkins: I don't think I have ever had a single dad come to me.
59:49
Rupert Isaacson: It's so interesting, isn't it?
59:50
Yeah.
59:51
You know, I wonder where they go.
59:53
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
59:54
That's a population that is on your mind.
59:56
Of course.
59:57
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
59:58
Because interestingly within the horse boy world, there's a number of people
1:00:03
who run really good programs, some of which are residential, and there's
1:00:09
some people that you should talk to.
1:00:11
One, a man called David Doyle in Ireland
1:00:13
Amanda Atkins: who
1:00:13
Rupert Isaacson: has started an an incredible.
1:00:17
Program, he uses our methods particularly movement method, but honestly,
1:00:23
even if he'd never run across us, he'd be doing a, a fantastic job.
1:00:26
Mm-hmm.
1:00:26
And he, he has this, this thing called step in, step down.
1:00:32
Step out.
1:00:32
So the residential homes are, they have a, they're in the
1:00:36
country and they have apartments.
1:00:39
They're fully supported.
1:00:40
Somebody would come in and spend a certain amount of time there, then transition to
1:00:47
going sometimes back home and sometimes there to then going fully back home.
1:00:54
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
1:00:54
Rupert Isaacson: To then if they need to, then cycle in again, cycling in again.
1:00:57
Amanda Atkins: Oh, that's cool.
1:00:58
Rupert Isaacson: And it's a really cool model because the
1:01:01
families are not broken up.
1:01:02
Everybody gets a break.
1:01:04
More
1:01:04
Amanda Atkins: of like a respite model, would you say?
1:01:06
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly, exactly.
1:01:07
Uhhuh.
1:01:08
Exactly.
1:01:08
But the respite being more than like a night, you know?
1:01:11
Yeah.
1:01:11
The respite being that's great.
1:01:13
You know, weeks if necessary.
1:01:15
Amanda Atkins: That's, that was great.
1:01:16
Rupert Isaacson: Whatever is right for that person and his daughter is,
1:01:19
you know, very severe, very acute.
1:01:21
He had to do something and he came up with this model, so he's one
1:01:24
of the people I know who's really built and now he's building them all
1:01:29
over Ireland and he's got the Irish government to pay for them and, and
1:01:33
Amanda Atkins: great,
1:01:34
Rupert Isaacson: you know, over 10 years he's gathered all the data to show how
1:01:37
it works and why it works and so on.
1:01:39
Amanda Atkins: Wow.
1:01:39
Rupert Isaacson: And there are these people out there who are present.
1:01:40
So interestingly within Horse Point, I know some real dads like this, there's
1:01:46
another man called Henrik Bergoff in Germany who's got a son who had
1:01:51
hydrocephalus and spina bifida and Wow.
1:01:54
Was sold to have bought the sun.
1:01:56
He and his wife Gitty run this incredible thing.
1:01:59
Yeah.
1:02:00
Now neither of them are single dads.
1:02:01
But we also have, of course, a lot of moms who've started programs as well.
1:02:05
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:02:06
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just wondering, you know, the, the male population
1:02:11
is quite lost at the moment.
1:02:13
Yeah.
1:02:13
If you're a white male, you're just, you are automatically the bad guy.
1:02:17
And you, there are a lot out there who are facing this and quite a lot.
1:02:25
And what
1:02:25
Amanda Atkins: per,
1:02:26
Rupert Isaacson: go ahead.
1:02:27
Like,
1:02:27
Amanda Atkins: I, I think about like what still in the year 2025,
1:02:31
like what permission do men have to, to feel, you know, like,
1:02:37
Rupert Isaacson: none.
1:02:39
Amanda Atkins: Right.
1:02:39
That's all what, what I'm about.
1:02:40
There's talk about it.
1:02:41
Rupert Isaacson: There's talk about it.
1:02:42
So that's why,
1:02:42
Amanda Atkins: that's why nobody comes to me, probably, you know?
1:02:44
Yeah.
1:02:45
Rupert Isaacson: Well because, because the thing is as a, as a, as a bloke.
1:02:50
You are supposed to be a sensitive bloke, but if you actually
1:02:54
show that vulnerability, there are no brownie points for it.
1:02:59
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:03:01
Rupert Isaacson: In including, frankly from, from women.
1:03:04
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:03:04
Rupert Isaacson: There is still a preference for the stoic male.
1:03:08
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
1:03:09
Rupert Isaacson: That is just the truth.
1:03:10
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
1:03:11
Rupert Isaacson: If, if it was different, I think we'd have noticed.
1:03:13
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
1:03:14
Rupert Isaacson: I'm not, I don't necessarily even
1:03:16
have a judgment over that.
1:03:16
I'm not sure that that's good or bad.
1:03:18
I think that might be just built into us a little bit.
1:03:23
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
1:03:23
Rupert Isaacson: But nonetheless if those men are suffering in that
1:03:26
particular way and are looking at decades of putting one foot in front of
1:03:32
the other to try and make it all work.
1:03:35
Yeah.
1:03:35
What's the.
1:03:39
What's the plan?
1:03:40
And I'd be interested because with, I'm talking to you as a
1:03:44
therapist, not just as an author.
1:03:46
Mm-hmm.
1:03:46
Mm-hmm.
1:03:46
And as a special, you know, special needs parent.
1:03:48
A special needs parent is that something which, you know, once
1:03:52
you've written a book, you know this, then you need another book.
1:03:54
I wonder, you know, is that gonna be like your next book is where are the
1:03:57
dads and what are we doing for them?
1:03:59
A good
1:03:59
Amanda Atkins: question.
1:04:00
I mean, as of now, the next book is either gonna be about siblings mm-hmm.
1:04:05
Of kids with disabilities or all about marriage.
1:04:08
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:04:09
Well, let's talk about marriage.
1:04:10
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:04:11
Rupert Isaacson: So you, you, I think you are quite unusual in that
1:04:14
you've been together how long now?
1:04:16
Amanda Atkins: 20 years we've been married.
1:04:17
Yeah.
1:04:18
Rupert Isaacson: And you know, I'm sure it's all been roses, right?
1:04:20
But you are together and
1:04:25
okay, you must have a base compatibility.
1:04:28
This helps.
1:04:31
I'm sure a lot of people are coming into you as special needs parents
1:04:34
whose, whose marriage is a fracturing.
1:04:36
Yes.
1:04:36
And they're doing that on top of
1:04:39
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:04:39
Rupert Isaacson: You,
1:04:41
what are your strategies there?
1:04:45
Amanda Atkins: Oh, it's hard.
1:04:47
It's, this is,
1:04:48
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
1:04:49
Amanda Atkins: Arguably the hardest.
1:04:51
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:04:51
Amanda Atkins: Because you have two individuals with completely
1:04:54
different life experiences coming in and grieving a situation and
1:05:01
approaching a situation differently.
1:05:03
And both of them are spinning, trying to do the best they can for their child.
1:05:08
And for themselves.
1:05:09
And often that leaves zero time for the relationship.
1:05:13
Yeah.
1:05:13
You know, zero time for intimacy or connection or, you know,
1:05:17
communication or fun playfulness.
1:05:19
It's just so serious, intense, even
1:05:21
Rupert Isaacson: sitting glass of wine together.
1:05:22
Yeah.
1:05:22
Absolutely.
1:05:23
Amanda Atkins: Impossible.
1:05:24
And, and room for conflict too.
1:05:26
We sit down and now I'm talking about, well, I went to this
1:05:29
appointment and you didn't do that.
1:05:30
There's no playfulness and there's no connection like there used to be
1:05:34
because it's, everything is high stakes.
1:05:37
Everything is so high stakes.
1:05:38
Yeah.
1:05:38
Rupert Isaacson: You know,
1:05:40
Amanda Atkins: That's the reality.
1:05:40
Well actually I
1:05:41
Rupert Isaacson: would posit that what is going on for most married couples
1:05:44
in the special needs thing is actually something similar to what's going on
1:05:49
for a lot of the special needs kids.
1:05:53
Because most of the special needs kids, it comes with not all but many.
1:05:58
It comes with a really high anxiety level.
1:06:01
High levels of cortisol.
1:06:03
Yeah.
1:06:04
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
1:06:04
Rupert Isaacson: If you made it this far into the podcast, then I'm
1:06:07
guessing you're somebody that, like me, loves to read books about not
1:06:12
just how people have achieved self actualization, but particularly
1:06:16
about the relationship with nature.
1:06:20
Spirituality, life, the universe, and everything.
1:06:24
And I'd like to draw your attention to my books.
1:06:27
If you would like to read the story of how we even arrived here, perhaps
1:06:32
you'd like to check out the two New York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy
1:06:37
and The Long Ride Home, and come on an adventure with us and see what engendered,
1:06:42
what started Live Free Ride Free.
1:06:44
And before we go back to the podcast, also check out The Healing
1:06:48
Land, which tells the story of.
1:06:51
My years spent in the Kalahari with the Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people
1:06:56
there, and all that they taught me, and mentored me in, and all that I learned.
1:07:01
Come on that adventure with me.
1:07:02
My friend Joel Dunlap, another person you should get with who
1:07:07
runs Square Peg Foundation in California does they incredible work.
1:07:14
You know, square pegs and ran holes, everyone.
1:07:16
So in Square Peg Foundation, everybody fits right.
1:07:19
Amanda Atkins: I love that.
1:07:20
Rupert Isaacson: She's a bit of a genius.
1:07:21
And also a special needs mom.
1:07:23
We had our horse boy Tribe day.
1:07:26
We, we are big believers in tribe.
1:07:28
In Community.
1:07:29
Mm-hmm.
1:07:29
We're international, so, you know, it's 40 countries and people.
1:07:32
So we try to get together every couple of years.
1:07:34
And this year we got together in Ireland and she was a speaker and
1:07:38
she made this really good point.
1:07:39
She said, what you're dealing with, whether it's the kids or whether it's
1:07:41
the parents, is cortisol poisoning.
1:07:45
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
1:07:45
Rupert Isaacson: So for those listeners who don't really
1:07:50
know that neuroscience are.
1:07:54
The part of your brain that governs fight, flight, freeze, fear, anxiety is called
1:07:59
the amygdala, which means almond in old.
1:08:03
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
1:08:04
Because
1:08:04
Rupert Isaacson: it's shaped like an almond.
1:08:05
And if it detects a threat, imaginary or real, that it doesn't care, it will
1:08:12
tell your body to produce two things.
1:08:15
Adrenaline and cortisol.
1:08:18
And cortisol is like a pair of scissors that momentarily cuts the cord between
1:08:25
the, or the connection between the boiler room of the brain dealing with
1:08:29
all the blood flow and temperature and digestion and the front part of the brain.
1:08:35
The CEO wondering what's for lunch because you do not want to be wondering what's
1:08:39
for lunch when something wants to make you lunch you or make lunch out of you.
1:08:44
So you must act not think so it nature's very clever, it's kills brain cells.
1:08:49
It's a neurotoxin, so that's why stress makes you sick because it's.
1:08:53
Actually a neurotoxin.
1:08:55
And it sticks around in the body all the time.
1:08:57
And happiness feels fleeting.
1:08:59
'cause oxytocin, serotonin, they evaporate almost as soon as they're produced.
1:09:04
You have to keep producing them all the time mm-hmm.
1:09:06
To, to keep feeling happy, whereas cortisol sticks around.
1:09:09
So PTSD is basically cortisol scarring in the brain.
1:09:12
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:09:13
Rupert Isaacson: And luckily you can, you can deal with it with
1:09:16
oxytocin very quickly if you know how to produce oxytocin.
1:09:19
That's a whole other thing.
1:09:20
Mm-hmm.
1:09:21
Amanda Atkins: But,
1:09:21
Rupert Isaacson: There it is.
1:09:22
So you've got two people who are in this marriage who are kind of
1:09:30
drowning in a vat of cortisol.
1:09:32
Yeah, that's right.
1:09:33
And when you, when you've got cortisol going around you, you can't
1:09:36
reason because you can't think.
1:09:38
Mm-hmm.
1:09:39
So when you're having a knockdown drag out fight with your.
1:09:43
You know, significant other, that's not the best time to talk about your long-term
1:09:47
investment portfolios because Exactly.
1:09:49
They're just not gonna make a rational decision.
1:09:51
That's right.
1:09:52
That's right.
1:09:52
Not available, you know?
1:09:53
Access denied for intellect.
1:09:56
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
1:09:56
Rupert Isaacson: So that's what these people are facing.
1:10:00
And then of course they go to war for these reasons.
1:10:03
How do you help 'em?
1:10:05
Amanda Atkins: Restoring safety is such a slow process, right?
1:10:11
Like bringing your nervous system back to baseline.
1:10:16
I think it starts with giving yourself permission to rest.
1:10:21
Mm-hmm.
1:10:22
You know, lowering the expectation.
1:10:24
Like this constant need for therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy.
1:10:28
Kid has seven therapies a week and you're going to see every
1:10:31
specialist and you're doing this.
1:10:32
It's like,
1:10:33
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
1:10:35
Amanda Atkins: just be.
1:10:36
What does it feel like to just be for a minute?
1:10:39
You know, there's been times where I, even now we're in one therapy a week for Asher.
1:10:44
That's it.
1:10:45
There's been times where we've had four or five therapies a week, and I just
1:10:48
had to stop it eventually and be like, I cannot function at this level anymore.
1:10:52
You know?
1:10:53
And so it's counterintuitive because we feel like we need to be doing
1:10:57
24 7, but I really think lowering the cortisol is by doing less.
1:11:01
And just coming back to basics, like again, that question, what brings you joy?
1:11:06
Yeah.
1:11:07
You know, where can you cut?
1:11:09
Can you, do you really, is this therapy really something
1:11:12
that you have to do right now?
1:11:13
Or is, can you take a break from it?
1:11:15
You know, our kids are overscheduled and therefore we're overscheduled, and
1:11:18
so do you have to go do all this stuff?
1:11:21
Or can you find safety for a minute and, and let your nervous system
1:11:26
relax a little bit so that you can actually allow yourself to feel joy.
1:11:30
It sounds so simple, right?
1:11:31
But I mean, in reality, this is impossible stuff to do.
1:11:34
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's not simple when you're.
1:11:35
Dealing with what you're just talking about because the exhausting, I
1:11:39
remember in the early days with Rowan before I became the therapy.
1:11:44
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:11:44
Rupert Isaacson: We were, yes.
1:11:46
Constantly driving around spending money.
1:11:47
We,
1:11:48
Amanda Atkins: yes.
1:11:48
Didn't
1:11:49
Rupert Isaacson: have time we didn't have.
1:11:53
And it was incredibly stressful.
1:11:57
Where I was really lucky 'cause I'm a journalist, like, so
1:12:04
I will always ask questions.
1:12:07
So I knew that I didn't know anything about this condition that my son had.
1:12:12
So I thought, okay, I need a mentor who I believe in mentorship strongly,
1:12:18
you know, who is that mentor?
1:12:20
Like what qualities would that mentor need to have?
1:12:24
And I coach people with this.
1:12:26
So it was okay, that mentor needs to be an adult with autism
1:12:30
because anybody else will have opinions, but not lived experience.
1:12:35
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:12:35
And
1:12:36
Rupert Isaacson: that autism can't just be like, you know,
1:12:38
high functioning quirkiness a la
1:12:41
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:12:41
Rupert Isaacson: Young Sheldon.
1:12:43
It's to be like, they had to start where my son was nonverbal,
1:12:46
shitting their pants, self-harming tantrums, like all of that.
1:12:50
And they have to have somehow made it.
1:12:52
Who's that person?
1:12:54
And actually that person was really easy to identify.
1:12:57
That was Dr.
1:12:57
Temple Grandin.
1:12:59
Amanda Atkins: Ah, right, right, right.
1:12:59
Yeah.
1:13:00
So she she
1:13:00
Rupert Isaacson: started life exactly there.
1:13:02
She was rocking in a corner at three, wiping her poo on the walls.
1:13:05
Yeah.
1:13:05
They were gonna institutionalize her nonverbal.
1:13:08
So I just wrote her an email and said can I come talk to you?
1:13:12
Cool.
1:13:12
And she went, yeah.
1:13:13
So I just showed up and I sat in her office and said,
1:13:16
how does my son become you?
1:13:18
And she said, do three things, and I did 'em.
1:13:20
Mm-hmm.
1:13:21
And the most important one was follow the child.
1:13:25
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
1:13:26
Rupert Isaacson: And that's why I asked about ASHA's passionate interests.
1:13:29
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:13:29
Yeah.
1:13:30
Rupert Isaacson: And that's why I asked about your passionate interests.
1:13:32
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
1:13:33
Rupert Isaacson: Because I know from experience that if I follow
1:13:37
the passionate interests of my kid, everything else will fall into place.
1:13:42
Amanda Atkins: Right.
1:13:42
Rupert Isaacson: But if I try to put an adult agenda on it,
1:13:46
everything will get very complex.
1:13:48
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
1:13:49
Rupert Isaacson: But we are told we have to put the adult agenda on.
1:13:52
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
1:13:54
Rupert Isaacson: You know, that the child should comply to the adult agenda.
1:13:59
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
1:14:00
Mm-hmm.
1:14:00
And
1:14:00
Rupert Isaacson: that I think is, you know, we were all
1:14:02
brought up with that, weren't we?
1:14:04
Yeah.
1:14:04
So it's, it is a real, so I've, you know, when we're doing our trainings, for
1:14:08
example, that's the hardest skill to teach people is the follow the child piece.
1:14:12
Sounds so simple.
1:14:13
Like you said, fi find joy.
1:14:14
It sounds very simple, doesn't it?
1:14:15
But it's not because Right.
1:14:18
Our Judaic, you know, cultures are not about joy.
1:14:23
They're about suffering.
1:14:23
Amanda Atkins: Exactly.
1:14:24
Rupert Isaacson: Going to hell.
1:14:26
Paying your tithes.
1:14:27
Control, control, control.
1:14:28
Yeah.
1:14:29
Yeah.
1:14:29
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
1:14:30
Because what I love, yeah, I, what I love about the idea of following the
1:14:33
child is it gives the, it gives the child confidence, it gives the child.
1:14:40
A sense of self that they learn to follow.
1:14:43
Like, that's why it's so hard for so many of us as adults
1:14:45
to say, what brings you joy?
1:14:47
Because nobody's ever really asked us that question that cares about it.
1:14:50
Yes.
1:14:50
Right?
1:14:50
And so when we're putting our child in the position of being the leader and
1:14:54
we're saying, I'm gonna follow where you lead me, and I'm gonna be there to help
1:14:58
you and mentor you and shape you, it actually gives the child a sense of what
1:15:03
brings them joy and what they want to do.
1:15:06
And it's crazy.
1:15:07
Kids don't even have that.
1:15:09
They just wanna sit on a screen now because that's, that's what they're given.
1:15:12
They've lost that sense of adventure in some ways.
1:15:14
And so I think your method really helps them reconnect with a sense of adventure,
1:15:18
a sense of, you know, autonomy, adventure,
1:15:21
Rupert Isaacson: exploration, play.
1:15:23
Yes.
1:15:24
These play, you know what, what's that?
1:15:26
Yes.
1:15:26
What's people, what's the old adage?
1:15:28
They say you, you don't stop playing 'cause you get old.
1:15:31
You get old 'cause you stop playing.
1:15:33
Amanda Atkins: Yes, yes, yes.
1:15:37
Rupert Isaacson: If we're, if we parent.
1:15:42
Follow the child where the child doesn't allow us to stop playing.
1:15:45
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:15:46
And it's so fun and connecting and you feel like, oh my
1:15:48
gosh, I actually like my kid.
1:15:50
Yeah.
1:15:50
My kid's funny.
1:15:51
I wanna spend time with them.
1:15:53
They're actually
1:15:53
Rupert Isaacson: good company.
1:15:54
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
1:15:55
I love that.
1:15:56
Interesting.
1:15:56
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:15:56
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:15:57
Rupert Isaacson: Doesn't mean sometimes you don't, you know, get
1:15:59
exhausted and frustrated again.
1:16:00
Of course.
1:16:01
Or
1:16:01
Amanda Atkins: you don't have, you have to discipline from time to time.
1:16:03
This is all real things of parenting, you know?
1:16:05
Yes.
1:16:06
Rupert Isaacson: But it's still No, I, I so agree.
1:16:08
That we're, what we're really presented with is an
1:16:11
antagonistic, an antagonism model.
1:16:12
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
1:16:13
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:16:13
And also to tell the kid, don't be a kid again, I'm gonna
1:16:19
quote my friend Joel, be a
1:16:24
pen.
1:16:25
Be, be a Philadelphia lawyer, aged 45.
1:16:30
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:16:31
Right.
1:16:32
Rupert Isaacson: You know, and if you don't do that, we're gonna give you drugs
1:16:35
Amanda Atkins: to
1:16:36
Rupert Isaacson: make you that.
1:16:37
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:16:38
Rupert Isaacson: And then we'll all be miserable.
1:16:41
Amanda Atkins: One thing I'm curious about, do you feel like having your
1:16:44
first son have autism, do you feel like that helped you take a more relaxed
1:16:49
approach with your other children?
1:16:51
Rupert Isaacson: A hundred percent.
1:16:52
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:16:52
A hundred
1:16:53
Rupert Isaacson: percent.
1:16:53
Yeah.
1:16:54
Me too.
1:16:54
There there's, there's a part of me, you know, I mean, they're not through
1:16:59
their childhood yet, so there's
1:17:00
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:17:01
Rupert Isaacson: To come.
1:17:01
But you know, there are some things which they do and
1:17:06
I'm like, yeah, I'll be fine.
1:17:08
Amanda Atkins: Totally.
1:17:09
It'll be like, I don't care.
1:17:10
It's okay.
1:17:10
It'll be
1:17:10
Rupert Isaacson: fine.
1:17:11
Yeah, I agree.
1:17:14
It's like
1:17:14
Amanda Atkins: just totally changes the perspective.
1:17:16
You're like, what matters.
1:17:18
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:17:18
Not
1:17:19
Amanda Atkins: that much.
1:17:19
Rupert Isaacson: It brings to some version of World War I, you know?
1:17:22
Yeah, exactly.
1:17:23
Yeah.
1:17:23
It's all fine.
1:17:24
But also the other thing which.
1:17:28
I, this is, again, it sounds cliche, but it it does, it is worth drawing one's
1:17:33
attention to childhood is very short.
1:17:35
Mm-hmm.
1:17:36
But it sets the tone for everything.
1:17:38
So the more one can put emphasis into making that as joyful as possible.
1:17:47
Well, a, the more joy you are gonna experience as the parent, but also
1:17:50
the more you're gonna set that person up with a habit of joy.
1:17:54
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:17:55
Rupert Isaacson: And you know, with Rowan being my old first son now
1:17:59
being 23 going on 24, be 24 in a couple of weeks, actually, Jesus.
1:18:05
How did that happen?
1:18:06
Is that allowed?
1:18:07
Let's talk to him about that.
1:18:09
Don't, don't discipline him.
1:18:10
Stop.
1:18:11
Stop.
1:18:12
But
1:18:15
you know, he's now spent more of his life not as a child.
1:18:19
Amanda Atkins: Hmm.
1:18:20
Rupert Isaacson: He's still quite childlike in, in some
1:18:22
ways, but he, yeah, you, you've got this kind of 12 year thing.
1:18:31
It's not, it's not, you know, ass out of it.
1:18:33
Now I know, again, I'm sure he, I'm sure he's quite childlike
1:18:37
Amanda Atkins: right, but he's taller than me.
1:18:38
He's, you know, got body hair.
1:18:40
He looks like a man in a lot of ways, you know?
1:18:43
It's crazy.
1:18:44
Rupert Isaacson: What do you think is gonna be his future
1:18:49
in terms of relationships and what does he want with that?
1:18:53
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
1:18:54
Rupert Isaacson: With, do you know what he wants?
1:18:55
Does he express what he wants?
1:18:57
And what, what, what do you think?
1:18:58
His chances,
1:19:00
Amanda Atkins: I have no idea.
1:19:01
He doesn't really talk a lot about, you know, friendships or, I don't
1:19:06
know that he's ever talked about romantic relationships, you know, so he
1:19:09
Rupert Isaacson: puberty, so is he expressing sexuality?
1:19:12
Amanda Atkins: Not really, not not related to other people at all.
1:19:16
I mean, it doesn't really seem like it.
1:19:18
No.
1:19:19
He hasn't really said anything about ever wanting to go out on a date
1:19:21
or like an interest in anybody.
1:19:23
Yeah.
1:19:23
I mean, he hasn't expressed
1:19:23
Rupert Isaacson: any frustration.
1:19:25
Amanda Atkins: He has not, I cognitively, I don't know if he's
1:19:28
totally aware of like how other kids differ from him in that way.
1:19:31
I'm not sure.
1:19:34
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:19:34
I mean, in, in some ways that's a real blessing.
1:19:37
He's sort of,
1:19:38
Amanda Atkins: yeah.
1:19:39
Rupert Isaacson: To some degree insulated.
1:19:41
Amanda Atkins: I felt that.
1:19:42
Yeah.
1:19:42
Rupert Isaacson: But of course not every special needs child by any means is
1:19:47
Amanda Atkins: of course,
1:19:47
Rupert Isaacson: many people are coming, the moms are coming into
1:19:50
you and their boys and their girls
1:19:55
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:19:55
Rupert Isaacson: Are beginning to express these needs.
1:19:59
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:19:59
Rupert Isaacson: How do you help?
1:20:00
How do you help them navigate that?
1:20:02
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:20:03
There's a whole chapter in my book about puberty that discusses a lot of this and.
1:20:09
A lot of it, I think for parents kind of hinges on independence, right?
1:20:13
It's like our kids, depending on their cognition and their needs, they
1:20:18
might either want more independence than maybe they're able to have or.
1:20:25
There's just can be that struggle around independence and what that looks like.
1:20:28
And obviously as parents, first and foremost, we want our kids to be safe.
1:20:31
And you know, when you're thinking about things like dating, then it's like consent
1:20:36
and the ability to consent and sexuality and sex and all that is so scary.
1:20:40
And you know, how do we,
1:20:43
Rupert Isaacson: but it has to be addressed.
1:20:44
Amanda Atkins: It absolutely has to be addressed.
1:20:46
And there has to be room for it too.
1:20:48
Yes.
1:20:48
You know, like if your child is able to consent and is interested in romantic
1:20:53
relationships and you know, that is something that we have to be able to,
1:20:57
to allow that for their own development.
1:20:59
Yeah,
1:21:00
Rupert Isaacson: sure.
1:21:00
It's a human rights.
1:21:00
A human need.
1:21:00
Exactly.
1:21:01
Amanda Atkins: Exactly.
1:21:02
And so I think a lot of what I talk about with parents is not so much like how, how
1:21:06
do they go about doing it, but how do they wrestle with their own emotions around it?
1:21:11
Because if you spent your whole life taking care of your child and suddenly
1:21:15
they wanna go out on a date with somebody and everyone's consenting
1:21:18
and able to do it, mom might feel like, no, I'm not letting them do it.
1:21:21
But she has to work through that.
1:21:23
Instead of, you know, controlling and keeping him close, she has to work through
1:21:26
her feelings of letting go and allow that, you know, so I think a lot of it
1:21:30
is like, what is the parent feeling?
1:21:31
So often it's like very hard to let go of this person that they've, they feel like
1:21:35
they have some sense of ownership over.
1:21:37
'cause at the end of the day, we don't.
1:21:38
Rupert Isaacson: Well, but also a sense of responsibility
1:21:40
to keep safe too, as you say.
1:21:41
Absolutely.
1:21:42
And absolutely.
1:21:43
You
1:21:43
Amanda Atkins: know,
1:21:44
Rupert Isaacson: Treading that line, it's so hard to
1:21:47
Amanda Atkins: Yes, yes.
1:21:48
It's like,
1:21:48
Rupert Isaacson: you know, the mother duck pushing the
1:21:51
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
1:21:52
Rupert Isaacson: Duckling out onto the, of course, no longer a duckling, you
1:21:54
know, right out water, but knowing that there's alligators swimming arounds,
1:21:58
but they don't go out on the water.
1:22:00
They can't be a duck.
1:22:01
They, it's, this is where I feel tribe and community is so
1:22:09
important because if there is
1:22:15
more known.
1:22:17
Familiarity between the people in the group, then there is also accountability.
1:22:22
Amanda Atkins: That's exactly right.
1:22:23
So Asher recently wanted to go to the homecoming dance.
1:22:26
He's never done anything like this before.
1:22:29
You know, he doesn't have his driver's license, that kind of thing.
1:22:30
But l one of the girls I mentioned earlier that does the, the.
1:22:35
Zoom sessions with him.
1:22:37
He said that he wanted to ask Elle to go to homecoming.
1:22:39
So we texted her, she said, yes, of course.
1:22:42
And I'm thinking about that idea of community because the restaurant that
1:22:46
they wanted to go out to, there was a two hour wait in order to get in.
1:22:49
They didn't have reservations or whatever, but he vent to that restaurant enough.
1:22:52
It's just our corner little bar and grill that they let the kids skip the weight and
1:22:57
go in and, you know, and just knowing that like, okay, the servers there know him.
1:23:01
Our community knows him.
1:23:03
Even in Chicago.
1:23:04
Yeah.
1:23:04
People know the places that Asher visits, people know Asher.
1:23:07
And so there's this sense of community of like, yeah, our, our tribe.
1:23:11
City it.
1:23:12
A lot of people that interact with Asher know him and know his limitations
1:23:16
and his needs and just knowing that even when I wasn't there, there
1:23:19
were people that had eyes on him.
1:23:21
Like, that's such a comforting feeling to know that within our
1:23:23
community it has almost a smaller village feel to it in the middle of
1:23:26
a huge city with 3 million people.
1:23:28
But okay, you're one of
1:23:28
Rupert Isaacson: those integrated neighborhoods.
1:23:30
Yeah.
1:23:30
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:23:30
It feels so good to know that there's people on every corner
1:23:33
that know him and know us.
1:23:35
That's really special.
1:23:36
You know,
1:23:38
Rupert Isaacson: he's going to a restaurant.
1:23:39
How does he deal with his desire to eat more food than he can?
1:23:44
Amanda Atkins: So I coached Elle before, you know, and that puts her
1:23:47
in a difficult position 'cause she's his friend, she's the same age as him.
1:23:51
But I said, you know, he can, Asher always orders off the kids' menu.
1:23:54
That's like one of his things.
1:23:55
And so he did that and I just knew going into it, he's
1:23:59
gonna finish all of his food.
1:24:00
If there's ketchup, he's gonna lick the ketchup, he's gonna get an apple
1:24:03
juice, even though I don't want him to.
1:24:05
I'm letting go.
1:24:06
It's fine.
1:24:06
Yeah.
1:24:06
It's one night.
1:24:07
Rupert Isaacson: It's fine.
1:24:08
But he is, he not gonna want to just keep ordering and keep
1:24:10
ordering and keep ordering.
1:24:12
Amanda Atkins: I just knew Al wouldn't let him, you know, Al would, you know,
1:24:15
I guess said, let him order what he orders and you know, just one thing.
1:24:18
And he even like, brought our credit card so that he could pay for it,
1:24:21
like to be the gentleman and stuff.
1:24:23
It was very sweet.
1:24:24
So yeah, it was, it was a cool experience.
1:24:26
But knowing the community aspect that there's, you know, there very well may
1:24:29
have been people in that restaurant that night that even knew him.
1:24:31
Just people, you know?
1:24:33
Yeah.
1:24:33
Regular people eating there.
1:24:34
So the importance of community.
1:24:36
Right.
1:24:36
Rupert Isaacson: And his relationship with Al and the other young
1:24:40
woman, he wants to zoom with them.
1:24:42
He wants to spend time with them.
1:24:44
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:24:44
But
1:24:44
Rupert Isaacson: he's not.
1:24:45
Frustrated or heartbroken that he can't have a relationship with them.
1:24:49
Amanda Atkins: He doesn't seem to be, because there's been points where one
1:24:52
of 'em will maybe get a boyfriend or something, and Asher just kind of knows.
1:24:55
It's like no big deal.
1:24:56
He never seems like I've said before, do you, do you have a crush on her?
1:25:00
Do you like her?
1:25:01
And he's like, no, you know, she's my friend.
1:25:03
She's my friend.
1:25:04
So I don't know.
1:25:06
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, it's it's such a, it's such a mystery.
1:25:11
Amanda Atkins: It really is.
1:25:13
Rupert Isaacson: This is a hard question to ask.
1:25:15
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
1:25:16
Rupert Isaacson: Can I just ask it straight out?
1:25:18
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
1:25:19
Rupert Isaacson: What's the life expectancy in general with Prada?
1:25:23
Amanda Atkins: It seems like it's, it can range anywhere from, you know, young
1:25:28
to old, but there's no, there's no like evidence to say that he will die young.
1:25:33
Rupert Isaacson: Is there a sort of bang in the middle prognosis that normally.
1:25:38
Amanda Atkins: It.
1:25:39
So much of it depends on weight
1:25:41
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:25:41
Amanda Atkins: And health around that, you know?
1:25:43
Yeah.
1:25:43
Health around all of that.
1:25:44
And so, you know, there's a lot of other things like sleep apnea or things like
1:25:49
that that can definitely impact life.
1:25:50
But as it stands right now, there's no reason that Asher
1:25:53
would not live to be, you know, 60 or 60 years old, give or take.
1:25:58
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:25:58
Amanda Atkins: Young, young.
1:25:59
I mean, we're not talking 80 or nine.
1:26:00
Also young by, by all standards
1:26:02
Rupert Isaacson: now.
1:26:02
Yeah.
1:26:02
Not young by 14th century standards, you know?
1:26:04
Correct.
1:26:04
Correct.
1:26:05
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:26:05
Yeah, yeah.
1:26:05
Yeah.
1:26:07
Rupert Isaacson: So, I, I didn't know about sleep apnea.
1:26:11
I was gonna go somewhere else for this question, but just talk
1:26:13
to me briefly about sleep apnea.
1:26:14
Why is that a thing with, prior to,
1:26:16
Amanda Atkins: so kind of the main treatment for PWS is growth hormone.
1:26:21
The growth hormone injections.
1:26:22
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:26:23
Amanda Atkins: And growth hormone can lead to an overgrowth of
1:26:25
adenoids and tonsils and all of that.
1:26:28
Oh, okay.
1:26:28
We did get, and so he's, he's been followed for apnea.
1:26:32
Forever since he's been on the growth growth hormone.
1:26:34
But he does have his adenoids and everything removed, but it's still
1:26:38
something frequently that we get sleep studies just to check in on that.
1:26:40
'cause that can be a definite concern for people with PWS.
1:26:43
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, good.
1:26:44
That's good to know.
1:26:45
Yeah.
1:26:46
Okay.
1:26:46
So, you know, if, for example, longevity is to a large
1:26:52
degree predicated upon weight.
1:26:55
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:26:55
Rupert Isaacson: And the best people to probably be in control of
1:26:59
that, are you and your husband Yes.
1:27:01
Or the more reason to be the providers of the service of the home
1:27:06
that he eventually goes to living.
1:27:08
Amanda Atkins: Totally.
1:27:09
Rupert Isaacson: Totally.
1:27:10
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:27:11
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:27:11
Amanda Atkins: I'll be in control of the menu, like Right, exactly.
1:27:14
It's really to that point.
1:27:15
Yeah.
1:27:16
Rupert Isaacson: So,
1:27:19
given that that is probably inevitably what you're going to do.
1:27:23
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:27:23
Rupert Isaacson: Have you been thinking about models?
1:27:25
Like, are you gonna form a nonprofit.
1:27:27
Are you going to reach out for mentorship?
1:27:29
Are there other people already doing this with Pril that, you know who
1:27:33
Amanda Atkins: I don't know.
1:27:33
Any.
1:27:33
Any, yeah, I'm not sure.
1:27:35
I don't really know anyone else in the PWS community that's doing this,
1:27:38
but there, there are other people, even in like the Chicago area that
1:27:42
have kids right about the same age that have talked about this as well,
1:27:45
that are, you know, meeting to sort of discuss what next steps would mean.
1:27:48
But really it's all very new to me, so I'm like right in the beginning
1:27:51
stages of even thinking about all this.
1:27:54
Rupert Isaacson: So I guess
1:27:55
Amanda Atkins: you are who I'm gonna be talking to.
1:27:57
Yeah.
1:27:57
We'll absolutely
1:27:58
Rupert Isaacson: have that conversation for anyone who's listening.
1:28:01
Yes.
1:28:01
You need to found a nonprofit.
1:28:03
Yeah.
1:28:03
And that is not a big deal.
1:28:05
You can be up and running in six weeks.
1:28:07
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:28:08
Rupert Isaacson: And you are in a unique position in the same way that some of
1:28:12
the people I know who are physicians.
1:28:14
Who run their, who have autism, parents who've started things Yeah.
1:28:17
Are a unique position.
1:28:18
'cause you could run a family practice out of that business.
1:28:22
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:28:23
Rupert Isaacson: And for example, Rowan, my son, is now to some degree
1:28:26
professionally himself in that he helps me when I'm going round, doing
1:28:31
particularly movement method trainings.
1:28:33
He will talk to the therapists, the caregivers, the parents who were training
1:28:39
in our methods about what it is to be autistic from the inside, how it felt to
1:28:44
go from the kind of nonverbal, disoriented fog he calls it, the fog to emerging
1:28:51
from that fog and what that process was.
1:28:53
A lot of autistic people will talk about this.
1:28:55
It's, it's, it's, it's really fascinating.
1:28:57
What to do to ensure success.
1:29:01
Why follow the child, you know, blah, blah, blah.
1:29:04
And so he's really
1:29:09
professionally him.
1:29:11
Amanda Atkins: Hmm.
1:29:12
Rupert Isaacson: And I could see that if you were to do that in the family therapy
1:29:15
context with Asha, you know mm-hmm.
1:29:17
It's, it's a, a wonderful thing if Asha comes into the room or Rowan comes
1:29:21
to the room, sits down Oh my gosh.
1:29:23
And says, this is how it is from my point of view.
1:29:26
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, yeah.
1:29:27
Yeah.
1:29:27
Amazing.
1:29:28
Rupert Isaacson: And then a parent who's perhaps, you know,
1:29:32
at the very, very start of that
1:29:35
Amanda Atkins: Mm.
1:29:35
Mount
1:29:35
Rupert Isaacson: Everest that they have to climb can say, well, actually, yeah.
1:29:40
Oh wow, okay.
1:29:42
That, yeah.
1:29:42
That it's climbable.
1:29:45
Yeah.
1:29:45
That's reassuring.
1:29:46
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:29:48
Rupert Isaacson: So I could see you being in a pretty unique position there.
1:29:53
Mm-hmm.
1:29:53
And actually being able to come in, you know, not just being a service.
1:29:57
User, but a service provider.
1:29:58
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
1:29:59
I love that too, because it's like, we all got into this because of
1:30:02
our, our kid, but it's also become a passion to help other parents and
1:30:06
other kids in these situations too.
1:30:08
So it's, you know, the benefit is there's so much benefit there that we're,
1:30:12
we're doing the work that we're doing so that other parents maybe don't have
1:30:15
to start from the bottom or the, at least they feel like there's some hope.
1:30:19
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:30:19
Well, and particularly when you've, you've, you've stumbled upon solutions.
1:30:23
Yes.
1:30:23
You know, so when, when we stumbled upon this thing and then we realized
1:30:28
that it came down to this basic, but then I need to know why was it working?
1:30:31
Why was it working?
1:30:32
And That's right.
1:30:33
So then I, so, or something in the brain and the nervous system,
1:30:35
well, who understands brains and nervous systems, neuroscientists.
1:30:38
Right.
1:30:38
So I went and spoke to neuroscientists and said, can you explain why this
1:30:42
thing that we're doing is working?
1:30:43
And they could, and then we realized, oh shit, we could replicate it then.
1:30:47
Amanda Atkins: Right.
1:30:47
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, that's good.
1:30:48
But I went through a bit of a, do I want to do that?
1:30:54
Because as soon as you become a bit of a public bigger right.
1:30:57
You know, people are gonna throw mud, blah, blah, blah.
1:31:00
And I thought one, it got, it got to because there's almost like a moral
1:31:04
obligation because there are so many parents out there who are in the
1:31:08
position that I was in 20 years ago.
1:31:10
Yes,
1:31:10
Amanda Atkins: yes.
1:31:11
Rupert Isaacson: Who are not knowing what to do, who didn't,
1:31:14
haven't gone and met Temple Grandin.
1:31:16
That's right.
1:31:17
And that's right.
1:31:18
And so we stumbled into this technology.
1:31:20
If we don't make it available, that's not very nice.
1:31:24
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:31:25
Rupert Isaacson: There was a bit of a temptation at the beginning
1:31:27
to say, why don't we just stay within the family and keep, of
1:31:30
Amanda Atkins: course.
1:31:31
Rupert Isaacson: And that would be easier, but it wouldn't have been in the long run
1:31:34
because there would've been no community.
1:31:37
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
1:31:38
That's right.
1:31:39
Rupert Isaacson: And no support and no support for him and
1:31:41
no livelihood for him and no.
1:31:44
Mm-hmm.
1:31:44
So I do feel actually that, that generally what I say is you, you're in
1:31:50
this not only for the rest of your life.
1:31:52
You're in this beyond the grave.
1:31:54
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:31:54
Yeah.
1:31:55
Rupert Isaacson: You have to set up these structures.
1:31:57
So, okay, let's go.
1:32:01
So as it
1:32:02
Amanda Atkins: turns out, our identity is full circle.
1:32:04
'cause I started saying, I'm not gonna find my identity
1:32:07
in this, and then here I am.
1:32:09
Rupert Isaacson: But that's such an adolescent thing to say, isn't it?
1:32:11
It is.
1:32:11
Like, exactly, exactly.
1:32:12
That seems that one even has an identity.
1:32:15
Amanda Atkins: That's right, that's right.
1:32:16
Is an
1:32:16
Rupert Isaacson: identity that's a fixed thing and not That's right.
1:32:20
Endlessly mutable because of course, what is
1:32:22
Amanda Atkins: exactly,
1:32:22
Rupert Isaacson: anyway, it's just
1:32:24
Amanda Atkins: Exactly.
1:32:24
And of course we're gonna be changed forever by this experience.
1:32:28
It's ingrained in us now.
1:32:30
Rupert Isaacson: And I think by parenting in general, let's say it
1:32:32
special needs wasn't in the picture.
1:32:36
You do exist for your children.
1:32:39
That's right.
1:32:39
That's, that is just a, a biological fact to you.
1:32:42
Yeah, you do.
1:32:42
It doesn't mean you can't pursue your own fulfillment.
1:32:46
But that's still in service too.
1:32:50
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
1:32:51
Rupert Isaacson: And you actually won't be happy unless it is,
1:32:54
because we are just wired that way.
1:32:57
Yeah.
1:32:58
But I know that feeling.
1:32:59
Yes.
1:32:59
That's a very sort of twenties, thirties way to think.
1:33:02
Totally.
1:33:03
I'm not going to be, yeah.
1:33:05
I'm blah.
1:33:06
That's not gonna define me.
1:33:07
And it's like,
1:33:09
Amanda Atkins: yeah.
1:33:09
It's like the first thing outta my mouth, huh?
1:33:11
Yeah.
1:33:11
No, he has a disability.
1:33:12
Yes.
1:33:12
Mm-hmm.
1:33:13
Rupert Isaacson: But, you know, it brings out the best in us, I think.
1:33:17
Amanda Atkins: Totally.
1:33:17
Totally.
1:33:20
Rupert Isaacson: You know, you wouldn't be who you are.
1:33:21
You wouldn't have written this book.
1:33:23
Amanda Atkins: Exactly.
1:33:24
Rupert Isaacson: You wouldn't have become this family therapist.
1:33:27
Yeah.
1:33:27
Now, speaking of the book, I'd like you to read a little bit from it, please.
1:33:30
All right.
1:33:31
All right.
1:33:31
Amanda Atkins: Okay, so this is in kind of in the last chapter, which
1:33:34
is a chapter all about, it's called a whole You, and it's all about how
1:33:39
we find meaning in this journey.
1:33:43
Rupert Isaacson: Okay?
1:33:43
Amanda Atkins: All right.
1:33:48
You have your own passions, worldviews, and values.
1:33:52
You have lived your own unique life shaped by experiences from your
1:33:55
childhood, culture, religion, and all the other factors of your story.
1:34:00
The good, the bad, the ugly, and everything in between.
1:34:04
Parenting a disabled child very well may be your most life-changing
1:34:08
experience, but there are many, many other factors that make you who you are.
1:34:13
Finding meaning in parenting a disabled child can help you build a bridge
1:34:17
from the person you were before your child was born, to the person you
1:34:21
are now and who you will become.
1:34:24
This work can lead you to a choice, reinforce a worldview, make a
1:34:28
worldview crumble, or light a fire inside you to create something that
1:34:32
makes the world a better place.
1:34:34
The question is, who are you?
1:34:37
Who is the whole you?
1:34:38
In light of, not in spite of your role as the parent to a disabled child,
1:34:43
your parenting experience has no doubt changed you, but your core self, values,
1:34:49
passions, fears, joys, it's all there.
1:34:53
And it's important that you give yourself permission to be the whole you
1:34:57
as you consider your sense of self and where you find meaning in your life.
1:35:01
I'll never dismiss the hard parts of parenting a disabled
1:35:04
child, but with the lowest lows come some of the highest highs.
1:35:08
When you've spent endless hours in physical therapy with your child,
1:35:12
watching them muster up all their strength to tackle a milestone, is
1:35:15
earth shattering in the best way, seeing your baby smile, make eye contact,
1:35:21
come out of a surgery or seizure?
1:35:23
These are the moments where you find real meaning in life on a larger scale.
1:35:28
Applying your awareness of disability to your worldview can look like realizing
1:35:32
that disability is a normal part of diversity and seeing beauty in all people.
1:35:37
This is both simple and revolutionary all at the same time.
1:35:42
Being the parent of a disabled child has fundamentally changed
1:35:45
the way I view the world.
1:35:47
I now understand that all emotions, not just the pleasurable ones
1:35:51
are meant to be part of life.
1:35:53
I now know that the goal is not pleasure.
1:35:55
The goal is not perfection.
1:35:57
What is the goal you ask to be present through all of it?
1:36:01
There is so much beauty and value scattered throughout the human.
1:36:05
The the experience of parenting a disabled child.
1:36:08
We get to be a companion to our child through all of life's ups and downs.
1:36:13
Parenting is the hardest job but parenting a disabled child with compassion,
1:36:18
advocacy, vulnerability, and balance, that's often the hardest, hardest job.
1:36:24
We are the keepers of our child's life, often responsible
1:36:28
for decision making and future planning, and not just for 18 years.
1:36:32
It could last one year or it could last 60.
1:36:34
And if I'm being honest, either option terrifies me.
1:36:38
I can do it, and so can you.
1:36:40
Scattered amid the joy and grief somewhere under all the caretaking
1:36:44
and responsibility is you.
1:36:46
You're not the same person you were before.
1:36:48
Parenting through your world, upside down.
1:36:50
You've changed, but you're in there.
1:36:52
You're allowed to be more than just a parent.
1:36:55
You're allowed to have complex emotions about your parenting experience and
1:36:59
not feel like you have to add the caveat, but I love my child so much
1:37:03
because love and pain can coexist.
1:37:07
I've often heard people say something like, take care of yourself.
1:37:11
You owe it to your child.
1:37:12
But that rhetoric is part of what makes us feel guilty about having
1:37:16
complex emotions about parenting.
1:37:18
Our child cannot be the sole motivation for our wellbeing.
1:37:22
You deserve to be fully whole a person who feels all the emotions without
1:37:27
self-judgment, a person who advocates for their child and for themselves.
1:37:32
You deserve care, love, and self-compassion.
1:37:35
Take care of yourself.
1:37:37
You owe it to you
1:37:42
Rupert Isaacson: west.
1:37:43
Live by, well, what's the first thing you are gonna do for your
1:37:47
self care when we're done with this?
1:37:51
Amanda Atkins: Oh, I'm gonna go outside here in a little bit and walk in the snow.
1:37:56
It's like 30 degrees, but you gotta get out there.
1:37:59
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:37:59
Out there.
1:38:00
And what are gonna do?
1:38:01
What, what, what, what?
1:38:02
What are you gonna do for joy while you're out there?
1:38:06
Amanda Atkins: You know, I love just seeing the birds,
1:38:10
smelling the smells of the snow.
1:38:14
Just slowing down for a minute.
1:38:15
Just slowing down for a minute.
1:38:16
Got a busy day, a
1:38:17
Rupert Isaacson: busy week.
1:38:18
Well, but what, what?
1:38:18
You identified two things there.
1:38:20
You're gonna go and observe nature.
1:38:22
Amanda Atkins: Yes.
1:38:26
Rupert Isaacson: When you go and self care,
1:38:31
is that your first go-to, to observe nature?
1:38:38
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, it is.
1:38:38
Whether it's outside or inside my dog.
1:38:42
Yeah.
1:38:42
Birds weather.
1:38:44
Yeah.
1:38:44
Leaves,
1:38:45
yeah.
1:38:46
Smells, yeah.
1:38:47
Nature for me.
1:38:48
For sure.
1:38:50
Rupert Isaacson: It's so interesting, isn't it?
1:38:51
It's, it's, it's, it's the thing that is not talked about in therapy.
1:38:55
Yeah.
1:38:55
Yeah.
1:38:56
And I remember when I was going through therapy talk therapy
1:39:01
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
1:39:02
Rupert Isaacson: And I was thinking, sitting there thinking, wow, I
1:39:04
know more about the brain than this person talking to me does.
1:39:07
Right.
1:39:08
What I'm talking to.
1:39:09
I know that sitting here in this chair in this room is not gonna do the trick.
1:39:15
No.
1:39:16
I need the move, I need movement for my brain.
1:39:20
Yep.
1:39:20
I need endorphins.
1:39:21
I need neuro BDNF, brain derived neurotrophic plaque factor.
1:39:25
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
1:39:25
Rupert Isaacson: Neuroplasticity moving around in nature.
1:39:27
I need
1:39:28
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
1:39:28
Rupert Isaacson: The habitat that my organism.
1:39:32
Requires in order to mm-hmm.
1:39:33
Do wellbeing.
1:39:35
And it's so interesting to me that within the therapy thing, it's, and there are
1:39:41
people, like I'm a nature therapist,
1:39:44
Amanda Atkins: right?
1:39:45
Rupert Isaacson: But the average therapy that has come outta the sort
1:39:49
of 19th century JGI and Freudian
1:39:52
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
1:39:53
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:39:54
Psycho-analysis, and then on from there only looks at
1:39:59
nature in terms of archetypes.
1:40:01
Right.
1:40:01
And symbolism
1:40:04
Amanda Atkins: and does therapy in these little rooms with flu life, they were
1:40:07
Rupert Isaacson: these like blokes, these academics who like sat in rooms
1:40:11
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:40:11
Rupert Isaacson: In Vienna, you know.
1:40:13
Amanda Atkins: Yeah, exactly.
1:40:15
Rupert Isaacson: And, and, and obsessed about stuff.
1:40:18
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
1:40:18
Rupert Isaacson: But
1:40:21
interestingly, the best therapists I've ever come across, human ones are.
1:40:29
Kalahari, koan, Bushman, shamans, hunter, gatherer.
1:40:32
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
1:40:33
Rupert Isaacson: Healers living in that authentic human way.
1:40:38
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
1:40:40
Rupert Isaacson: And
1:40:44
I like the fact that when I asked you the question, what are you gonna go do now?
1:40:48
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
1:40:49
He
1:40:49
Rupert Isaacson: basically said, I'm gonna go out in the snow, observe.
1:40:52
Yeah.
1:40:53
Smell the snow and observe the birds.
1:40:55
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
1:40:56
Rupert Isaacson: What I'm gonna go do, 'cause I'm six, seven hours ahead of you
1:41:00
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:41:01
Rupert Isaacson: Is I'm going to go downstairs and sit by the fire
1:41:04
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
1:41:05
Rupert Isaacson: By with my children.
1:41:06
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
1:41:08
Rupert Isaacson: Which is also nature, you know.
1:41:10
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
1:41:10
Yeah.
1:41:11
Yeah.
1:41:11
Rupert Isaacson: And, and listen to the wind, you know, around
1:41:14
the old farmhouse and pet.
1:41:16
Love it.
1:41:17
My dog.
1:41:18
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
1:41:19
Yeah.
1:41:19
Yep.
1:41:20
Rupert Isaacson: And also talk to my wife and my children, which
1:41:23
is tribe, which is also nature.
1:41:24
Right.
1:41:25
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:41:25
Rupert Isaacson: It is simpler, I think, I think, than we think it is.
1:41:29
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
1:41:31
Rupert Isaacson: But it can also be hard to access nature if you are
1:41:36
sitting in an apartment in a tower block in Queens or, yes, Tokyo.
1:41:42
Then, so then, you know, you said also I liked this nature could be inside too.
1:41:51
Mm-hmm.
1:41:51
So are there plants, are there natural materials?
1:41:54
Do you have a pet?
1:41:54
Amanda Atkins: That's right.
1:41:55
That's right.
1:41:56
Rupert Isaacson: Are there, yeah.
1:41:58
These things are of such paramount importance
1:42:02
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
1:42:02
Rupert Isaacson: Overlooked, but I think sometimes can be the difference
1:42:06
between survival and non survival.
1:42:08
Totally.
1:42:10
Totally.
1:42:14
And they bring joy.
1:42:14
Mm-hmm.
1:42:20
So,
1:42:23
okay.
1:42:24
I think people will probably want to contact you and find you.
1:42:29
How do they find Dr.
1:42:31
Joy?
1:42:32
Yeah, I like that.
1:42:35
And yeah, you can yeah.
1:42:37
Tell people how they can reach out to you and, and get mentorship from you
1:42:42
and find your book and all of that.
1:42:44
Okay.
1:42:44
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:42:44
You can find my book really anywhere.
1:42:46
Books are sold online or if you wanna go to your local bookstore and
1:42:49
order your li there are in lots of libraries in the United States too.
1:42:52
And yeah, you can find me on my website, Amanda Griffith Atkins.
1:42:57
That's G-R-I-F-F-I-T ht KI s.com.
1:43:01
Amanda Griffith atkins.com,
1:43:03
and I'm on Instagram at Amanda Period.
1:43:05
Griffith Period, Atkins.
1:43:07
Those are the best ways to find me or send me an email.
1:43:10
I'm a real person.
1:43:11
Very accessible.
1:43:13
Rupert Isaacson: I imagine that you do consultancies and
1:43:15
things like that over Zoom.
1:43:17
Yep.
1:43:17
I do parent
1:43:17
Amanda Atkins: consultations and I always like to kind of say, it's
1:43:20
not like when I'm doing a parent consultation, it's not a how to parent.
1:43:23
I'm not that kind of therapist that's gonna tell you how to raise your child.
1:43:27
I'm more gonna tell you how to take care of yourself while
1:43:30
you're raising your child.
1:43:32
So keep that in mind too.
1:43:34
Yeah.
1:43:34
I'm all about the parent.
1:43:36
Yeah.
1:43:37
Rupert Isaacson: And I would like, I would like to collaborate with you.
1:43:39
I was leading a retreat this year in Sweden in the wilds of Sweden is amazing.
1:43:44
And one of the people who was on it is a fellow special needs parent, and
1:43:49
she started talking her daughter's in her thirties and began talking about
1:43:57
the long term trauma
1:44:00
Amanda Atkins: mm-hmm.
1:44:00
Rupert Isaacson: Of mm-hmm.
1:44:01
The accumulated trauma of being a special needs parent.
1:44:04
That particularly sort of when they get much older and you are
1:44:07
now dealing with that kind of.
1:44:09
Tiredness.
1:44:11
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:44:11
Rupert Isaacson: 'Cause you've been in it two, three decades by then.
1:44:15
Amanda Atkins: Mm-hmm.
1:44:15
Rupert Isaacson: And I'm realizing that in our work we don't yet have that program.
1:44:20
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:44:21
Rupert Isaacson: So let's do it.
1:44:24
Should do it.
1:44:25
Amanda Atkins: Let's do it.
1:44:26
Okay.
1:44:27
Rupert Isaacson: We'll bring Leanna in as well.
1:44:29
Amanda Atkins: Yes, yes.
1:44:30
Oh, Leanna
1:44:31
Rupert Isaacson: Lad's listeners, if you're listening to this, you've
1:44:33
gotta go check out the Livery Ride Free with Leanna Tank 'cause Yes, rad.
1:44:40
And we having this conversation if it wasn't for Leanna.
1:44:43
Amanda Atkins: Yeah.
1:44:44
Yeah.
1:44:44
I love Leanna.
1:44:44
Yeah.
1:44:45
Well thank you.
1:44:46
What a gift
1:44:48
Rupert Isaacson: gift.
1:44:48
Yeah, likewise.
1:44:49
I look forward to the continuing conversation.
1:44:52
Amanda Atkins: Yep.
1:44:52
Take care.
1:44:53
Rupert Isaacson: You too.
1:44:54
Amanda Atkins: Bye
1:44:56
Rupert Isaacson: bye.
1:44:56
Go enjoy this now.
1:44:56
I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did.
1:45:01
If you did, please help us to make more.
1:45:04
Please like, subscribe, tell a friend, give us a thumbs up.
1:45:09
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1:45:14
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1:45:15
And if you'd like to find out about our certification courses with.
1:45:18
autism, education, horsemanship, everyday shamanism.
1:45:22
There's a whole range of cool stuff.
1:45:25
Putting a show together like this is not an easy task.
1:45:30
If you'd like to support us, please consider going to our Patreon page
1:45:35
and showing us some love there.
1:45:37
Even the smallest donation, it really helps us to keep the good content coming.
1:45:43
So go to rupertisakson.
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com and click on the Patreon link.
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Not to mention our excellent merch.
1:45:50
Please go to our shop and check out some of our really cool
1:45:55
rock and roll themed merch.
1:45:57
T shirts, hoodies, all that sort of thing.
1:45:59
rupertisatson.
1:46:00
com, it's all there.
1:46:01
I can't wait for our next guest and also to meet you there.
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In the meantime, remember, live free.
1:46:10
Ride free.