Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / Never Underestimate The Wisdom + Power of Teen Girls with Author Chelsey Goodan

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Never Underestimate The Wisdom + Power of Teen Girls with Author Chelsey Goodan · QUESTION EVERYTHING

0:04
Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
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Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests
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Speaker 1: and I have conversations that put a new spin on
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Speaker 1: pretty This is pretty smart. Hello to my smart, beautiful,
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Speaker 1: thoughtful friends and listeners. If I haven't told you yet,
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Speaker 1: I'm so grateful for you. And I say that because
0:31
Speaker 1: I've been doing one on one zooms with some of
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Speaker 1: you that have entered the fifteen twenty minute pretty Smart
0:38
Speaker 1: Chat contest.
0:39
Speaker 2: So to catch you up, I've been doing.
0:41
Speaker 1: These with people that have entered, and all you have
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Speaker 1: to do is DM or email me at Danielle atbprettysmart
0:48
Speaker 1: dot com and just send me screenshots of you recommending
0:53
Speaker 1: an episode to two friends or you writing review And anyways,
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Speaker 1: I've been doing these one on one zoom and you
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Speaker 1: are all just so smart and thoughtful and interesting and
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Speaker 1: motivated and driven, and I am dying to find a
1:08
Speaker 1: way to connect all of you.
1:10
Speaker 2: That's a dream of mine.
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Speaker 1: If any of you have any ideas of how we
1:13
Speaker 1: can do it, please let me know.
1:15
Speaker 2: But I'm going to think on it too.
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Speaker 1: Also, before we get to today's episode, I just want
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Speaker 1: to say that I cannot believe that it's March.
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Speaker 2: Where does the time go? It was just January. You know.
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Speaker 1: I had a professor in high school that gave me
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Speaker 1: this theory, and he said that I couldn't spread it
1:35
Speaker 1: because it's not mathematically or scientifically proven, But I still
1:39
Speaker 1: think it's brilliant and I'm going to share it with you.
1:41
Speaker 1: He said that he felt like time moves quicker as
1:44
Speaker 1: you get older for this reason. As you age, each
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Speaker 1: year becomes a smaller slice of your pie. So, for instance,
1:53
Speaker 1: when you're two years old, one year is one half
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Speaker 1: of your life. When you're ten, the year goes by
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Speaker 1: slower because one year is one tenth.
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Speaker 2: Of your life.
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Speaker 1: But by the time you're thirty three, like me, the
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Speaker 1: year is a thirty third.
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Speaker 2: Of your life.
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Speaker 1: Now, if you're a statistician or a mathematician or I
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Speaker 1: don't even know the proper word for it, and you
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Speaker 1: can prove or disprove the theory, please.
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Speaker 2: Let me know. But until then, that's what I'm going with.
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Speaker 1: Okay, let's get into today's episode. Tomorrow, March eighth is
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Speaker 1: International Women's Day, and when I was thinking about what
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Speaker 1: that day means, it's really meant to celebrate a.
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Speaker 2: Gender Equal World.
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Speaker 1: When it was created, it was about celebrating women's achievements
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Speaker 1: and raising awareness about discrimination and taking action to drive
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Speaker 1: gender parity.
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Speaker 2: And I'm for all of it. But just like so.
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Speaker 1: Many major holidays, as they sort of take on a
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Speaker 1: life of their own, brands get involved and they come
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Speaker 1: to mean different things. They actually mean different things during
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Speaker 1: different years, depending on where you're at in life, where
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Speaker 1: culture is at. So this year, for Pretty Smart, I
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Speaker 1: really wanted to celebrate the women that each of us are,
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Speaker 1: and to me, that means digging a little deeper and
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Speaker 1: trying to access our teenage girl. So if there's one
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Speaker 1: thing that I've learned from our guests today, it's that
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Speaker 1: no matter what age we are, our inner team is
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Speaker 1: still living inside of us, day in and day out.
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Speaker 1: Chelsea Goodin, as a mentor and tutor, spent years interacting
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Speaker 1: with hundreds of teenage girls, listening to them and also
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Speaker 1: learning from them. Her book, Misunderstood the Wisdom and Power
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Speaker 1: of Teenage Girls is the result.
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Speaker 2: Chelsea argues that instead.
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Speaker 1: Of trusting this demographic, teenage girls instead get a bad rap.
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Speaker 1: Sometimes they're even feared, treated as problems that need to
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Speaker 1: be solved. I want to play you a clip that
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Speaker 1: you've probably heard, even if you didn't go see the
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Speaker 1: Barbie movie this summer. And no, it is not America
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Speaker 1: Ferrera's monologue, though that's obviously worth listening to too. It's
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Speaker 1: another monologue, one delivered by Sasha, the daughter of America's character,
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Speaker 1: played by Arianna Green Black. This happens when Barbie first
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Speaker 1: enters the human world. She thinks that she's going to
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Speaker 1: be showered with love. Instead, she runs into Sasha, who
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Speaker 1: cuts into her like a knife, delivering some blistering criticism
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Speaker 1: of Barbie.
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Speaker 3: You've been making women feel bad about themselves since you
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Speaker 3: were invented.
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Speaker 4: I think you have that the wrong way around.
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Speaker 3: You represent everything wrong with our culture, sexualized capitalism, unrealistic
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Speaker 3: physical idea.
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Speaker 4: No, no, you're describing something stereotypical. Barbie is so much
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Speaker 4: more than that.
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Speaker 3: Look at yourself.
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Speaker 4: I am technically stereotypical.
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Speaker 3: Party. You set the feminist movement back fifty years. You
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Speaker 3: destroy girls innate sense of worth, and you are killing
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Speaker 3: the planet with your glorification of rampant consumerism.
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Speaker 5: No, I'm supposed to help you and make you happy
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Speaker 5: and powerful.
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Speaker 3: Oh I am powerful and until you showed up here
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Speaker 3: and declared yourself, Barbie, I hadn't thought about you in years.
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Speaker 3: You fascist, Oh.
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Speaker 1: I mean precise, perceptive. Yeah, maybe even a little harsh.
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Speaker 1: But teenage girls speak the truth oftentimes more candidly than adults.
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Speaker 1: So what are we all so afraid of? Why are
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Speaker 1: we sleeping on an entire generation of young women at
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Speaker 1: a time in society where it could be argued that
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Speaker 1: we desperately need their insight. Chelsea says that teenage girls
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Speaker 1: are yielding in untapped power. So today I want to
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Speaker 1: know what she's talking about. What could happen if they
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Speaker 1: unleashed it? And what could happen if we unleash the
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Speaker 1: teenager inside of all of us?
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Speaker 6: Okay, So, Chelsea, your book Underestimated is all about the
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Speaker 6: power of teenage girls. And I love that word power
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Speaker 6: because they are so powerful. And I've done interviews on
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Speaker 6: the podcast in the past about the importance of young people,
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Speaker 6: and particularly the importance of young girls' voices throughout history.
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Speaker 6: But your book takes things a step further, and you
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Speaker 6: dissect the power and the inner wisdom that is so
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Speaker 6: inherent to teenage girls. So I want to start by
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Speaker 6: asking you how exactly did you find yourself to be
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Speaker 6: an expert on this topic.
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Speaker 5: So I started tutoring teenage girls about sixteen years ago,
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Speaker 5: just academic tutor, and it was kind of a side
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Speaker 5: job and that type of thing. And then I started
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Speaker 5: slowly but surely realizing how meaningful are one on one
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Speaker 5: time was how what wise words they were sharing with me,
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Speaker 5: what incredible things they were doing to try to make
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Speaker 5: the world better. And I really took my attention in
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Speaker 5: a way that was like, wait, we need to be
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Speaker 5: investing in these girls in a big way. And then
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Speaker 5: I started volunteering my time because I realized I didn't
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Speaker 5: want just to help girls that could afford baby or something.
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Speaker 5: So I started volunteering my time for girls from underrepresented
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Speaker 5: communities and found that I just loved that space, that
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Speaker 5: I was just meant to work with girls, and that
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Speaker 5: I knew that I could empower and bring out the
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Speaker 5: best of what they have to offer to the world,
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Speaker 5: and just it's been a calling of sorts.
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Speaker 6: The title is Underestimated, which I think says it kind
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Speaker 6: of sets the stage for what you talk about. But
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Speaker 6: what is your least favorite stereotype about this demo?
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Speaker 5: Well, I say a couple of the words in there
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Speaker 5: right from the beginning. It's the stereotypes of being an
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Speaker 5: emotional and dramatic and crazy.
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Speaker 4: I hate anyone calls teenage girls crazy. Oh mean.
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Speaker 5: I cannot tell you how many times people have heard
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Speaker 5: my book is about teenage girls and been like, what,
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Speaker 5: teenage girls are so mean? And they just dismiss them.
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Speaker 5: And I want to say, well, teenage girls are not
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Speaker 5: innately mean, but it's not who their core identity is.
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Speaker 5: I mean, first of all, that hasn't been my experience
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Speaker 5: of them being mean at all, and I can speak
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Speaker 5: at length about that. But also, we've built a society
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Speaker 5: and culture around them that isn't safe, that doesn't make
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Speaker 5: them feel safe. So of course there's a reactivity lots
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Speaker 5: of times to what's happening around them.
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Speaker 6: When you say they don't feel safe, what's an example.
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Speaker 5: They feel judged and they feel shamed, So it could
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Speaker 5: be it could be about around their body, right, like
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Speaker 5: what they look like. There's just there's so many shoulds,
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Speaker 5: what they should look like, what they should do, how
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Speaker 5: they should spend their time, and so, you know, we
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Speaker 5: it's very subtle sometimes, but it's also very overt. I mean,
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Speaker 5: dress codes have a real slut shaming aspect to them
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Speaker 5: these days, and girls, you know, don't feel safe expressing
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Speaker 5: themselves in their clothes, even though they love doing it
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Speaker 5: so much, because they're going to get criticized one way
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Speaker 5: or another.
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Speaker 4: You know, it's either your too much of this or
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Speaker 4: too much of that.
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Speaker 6: So are you anti school uniforms, pro school uniforms? Like,
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Speaker 6: what's your take on it?
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Speaker 5: You know, I'm here, I'm trying to also just be
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Speaker 5: the vocal microphone for the girls, right I am their
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Speaker 5: portal to what they want to say to the world.
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Speaker 5: So it's really not even about always my opinions. They
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Speaker 5: tell me over and over and over again how much
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Speaker 5: they hate dress codes, and that would include uniforms for
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Speaker 5: so many reasons. I mean, there are certainly some times
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Speaker 5: where it can work, but I want to lean in
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Speaker 5: into way it's not working, which is, you know, girls
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Speaker 5: will have like a broad strap showing right, and they
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Speaker 5: get shamed through that dress code in a way. It's
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Speaker 5: whether it's the sweater on the hot, sweltering day or
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Speaker 5: I know girls who have been sent home right. Where
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Speaker 5: as a boy might have his pants writing love when
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Speaker 5: showing his boxers and no one cares and the girls
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Speaker 5: see this happening. And what happens is we're telling girls
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Speaker 5: that they're responsible for a boy's inclinations, that their body
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Speaker 5: is a threat, that it's dangerous, that their natural expression
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Speaker 5: of who they want to be in the world is
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Speaker 5: wrong and bad in some way, and that those wounds
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Speaker 5: of shame set up shop for long periods of time.
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Speaker 4: I find that a lot.
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Speaker 5: Of these wounds that happen as teenagers carry into adulthood
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Speaker 5: and women are still struggling with them.
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Speaker 6: Do you think about your own teenage girlhood often, because
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Speaker 6: this book obviously made me think about mine a lot.
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Speaker 5: Yes, well, I think the book, even if you don't
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Speaker 5: have a teenage girl in your life, is a lot
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Speaker 5: about healing that inner teenage girl inside of you, and
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Speaker 5: that how I struggle then set up patterns that I
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Speaker 5: still deal with today, and I've worked really hard to heal,
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Speaker 5: and I'm trying to go upstream and actually work with
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Speaker 5: girls and help girls so that maybe we don't start
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Speaker 5: up those patterns of things like people pleasing and shame
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Speaker 5: and perfectionism and self doubt, which each chapter of the book,
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Speaker 5: as you know, is are those clean topics about around
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Speaker 5: those things.
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Speaker 6: When you talked about body image, I thought a lot
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Speaker 6: about my childhood because I had like larger breasts, maybe
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Speaker 6: like starting in eighth grade, and I did feel like
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Speaker 6: my body was a threat and I kind of felt
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Speaker 6: like teased and that like men were felt like entitled
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Speaker 6: to my body. I would see older men looking at me,
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Speaker 6: and it really freaked me out when I was a kid,
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Speaker 6: And so that has definitely stayed with me. Is there
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Speaker 6: one that has kind of played you?
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Speaker 4: The same one? The same one?
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Speaker 5: And I talk about it in the book, in the
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Speaker 5: sexuality chapter, I talk about how teenage girls have told
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Speaker 5: me endlessly about you know, men staring at their chest
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Speaker 5: and and what happens is we tell girls, you know,
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Speaker 5: to cover up, and that we put all the responsibility
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Speaker 5: and the pressure and the blame on the girl, and
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Speaker 5: we are not socializing boys and men to maybe learn
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Speaker 5: better behavior around these things, and that they shouldn't objectify
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Speaker 5: and sexualize young girls. And there's not much messaging to
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Speaker 5: boys at all about this, whereas girls know it so
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Speaker 5: hardcore and it sticks with them right Like even when
12:18
Speaker 5: I was doing I share this in the book. When
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Speaker 5: I was doing publicity photos for this book, I had
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Speaker 5: some cleavage showing in one of them, and I got
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Speaker 5: so much feedback of god forbid, I show cleavage and
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Speaker 5: I'm talking about teenage girls. All of a sudden, I'm
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Speaker 5: completely discredited. And it was so interesting to hear everyone's
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Speaker 5: perspective on it. How we can apparently that's the only
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Speaker 5: thing cleavage can communicate. But this is my body and
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Speaker 5: I should be able to own it. And I talk
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Speaker 5: a lot in the book about how women can now
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Speaker 5: be all things, like you can be sexy and smart, right,
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Speaker 5: you could be pretty and smart, and how this new
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Speaker 5: wave of feminism that gen Z is so a part
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Speaker 5: of in such a beautiful way knows that so much
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Speaker 5: better than older ways of thinking that would has a
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Speaker 5: long history of shaming women for showing cleavage.
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Speaker 6: I actually want to dig into that a little bit,
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Speaker 6: because that's something that you've shared with me, like in
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Speaker 6: a side conversation, is that you feel like a lot
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Speaker 6: of the young girls you work with sort of like
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Speaker 6: a Kim Kardashian figure where she's both an attorney and
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Speaker 6: in a bathing suit on Instagram. And I think, as
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Speaker 6: a now thirty three year old like very much a millennial.
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Speaker 6: All of the messaging I received was like, you will
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Speaker 6: not be taken seriously if you post in a bathing
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Speaker 6: suit online. And I want to ask your opinion because
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Speaker 6: I think to some degree that's still the case. And
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Speaker 6: I don't want young girls to, like, I don't want
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Speaker 6: to squander the social movement forward, but I also don't
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Speaker 6: want them to like shoot themselves in the foot. What's
13:54
Speaker 6: your take on it?
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Speaker 4: I know it's so hard, I hear the conundrum.
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Speaker 5: Could be the voice of change, right that actually gives
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Speaker 5: them space and creates enough conversations of how we can
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Speaker 5: collectively change around this narrative. Oftentimes a girl is posting
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Speaker 5: selfies or doing these types of things to explore her identity,
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Speaker 5: and she needs space to explore and not shame and
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Speaker 5: judgment around it. And we need to start the whole
14:23
Speaker 5: entire conversation over right. And so by only committing to
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Speaker 5: the narrative of like, well, though it might be, it
14:30
Speaker 5: is going to be a problem. You know, we're not
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Speaker 5: actually saying the other part of the conversation, like well,
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Speaker 5: ask her, like, what would be a way that you felt,
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Speaker 5: like feel like you could explore this side of yourself
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Speaker 5: or what are some environments that you would feel safe
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Speaker 5: to explore that clothing or explore that look that you're
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Speaker 5: trying to find in yourself, because instead what girls here
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Speaker 5: is you are shamed to you r judge and they
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Speaker 5: just shut down instead.
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Speaker 6: That's such a nice alternative, So like, how can you
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Speaker 6: explore that part of you or that look maybe outside
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Speaker 6: of social media at first?
15:01
Speaker 4: Yeah?
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Speaker 5: Yeah, and it can be I mean, you know, I've
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Speaker 5: had lengthy conversations with girls about posting on social media
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Speaker 5: and what that might mean for them and respecting their
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Speaker 5: voice and perspective in the conversation. That's another thing. Girls
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Speaker 5: are so much smarter than you think they are. They
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Speaker 5: want to be a part of the conversation. So what
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Speaker 5: happens a lot is society or parents or whatever it
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Speaker 5: might be like don't do that, that's bad, and they
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Speaker 5: just shut it down. And what I have been in
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Speaker 5: the trenches of is actually asking the girl herself. And
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Speaker 5: I talk a lot in the book about just having
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Speaker 5: that level of curiosity, non judgmental curiosity, where you ask, well,
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Speaker 5: how does this make you feel? Like what are your
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Speaker 5: thoughts on that? Are you posting that in order to
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Speaker 5: get likes? Are you trying to get a CRUSH's attention,
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Speaker 5: like ask her and respect her thoughts and don't have
15:49
Speaker 5: an agenda in asking her, so that she can actually
15:52
Speaker 5: talk it out and figure it out for herself rather
15:55
Speaker 5: than us projecting her story onto her.
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Speaker 6: I really like that, Chelsea. I love the idea of
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Speaker 6: curiosity over criticism, and so it's such a nice way
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Speaker 6: of navigating that. So you write on page fifty two,
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Speaker 6: sometimes a girl just needs to sit with who she is,
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Speaker 6: explore it, and find some peace around it. Kind of
16:14
Speaker 6: goes in tangent with what we just spoke about. But
16:16
Speaker 6: what did you mean when you wrote that.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, So, because there's so much messaging of what she
16:22
Speaker 5: should be, whether it's from the media or her friends
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Speaker 5: around her, there's so many shoulds that I have tried
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Speaker 5: to carve out space and talk to girls about what
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Speaker 5: it looks like for them to sit with who they
16:33
Speaker 5: are and listen and find connection to an inner voice.
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Speaker 5: And I ask them even to use their own words
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Speaker 5: to describe it right. They use different ways to say, Oh,
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Speaker 5: I'm connecting to my heart or my gut, or my
16:43
Speaker 5: intuition or my inner voice. I try to even make
16:46
Speaker 5: sure they name it in a way that feels right
16:48
Speaker 5: to them. And then I ask them what places and
16:51
Speaker 5: time and space do you feel that those thoughts are
16:54
Speaker 5: exactly aligned with who you are? When does that happen
16:57
Speaker 5: for you? So I say sit with, but sit with
17:00
Speaker 5: can be different. It's often, you know, time with yourself
17:03
Speaker 5: and connecting to yourself, exploring what makes you feel good
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Speaker 5: in liking who you are in the world.
17:11
Speaker 4: So it's connecting to authenticity, is what it is.
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Speaker 5: And how do we create spaces for them to do
17:15
Speaker 5: that rather than projecting a ton of shuds at them.
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Speaker 6: First of all, those are really big questions, like that's
17:22
Speaker 6: a hard question to answer to say, like when do
17:25
Speaker 6: you feel aligned and connected to yourself? And nobody asked
17:27
Speaker 6: me that till I was like thirty something. I think
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Speaker 6: that's so beautiful that you're like asking them those questions
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Speaker 6: at thirteen fourteen.
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Speaker 5: I know, right, that's how we change the world. That's
17:38
Speaker 5: exactly what I'm talking about, moving these conversations upstream, because
17:42
Speaker 5: we are underestimating them and their ability to have these
17:45
Speaker 5: types of conversations. And I often say, when they do
17:49
Speaker 5: figure something out, that's really cool. I mean, I've had
17:51
Speaker 5: girls talk about trauma responses with me and they're mother wounds,
17:55
Speaker 5: you know, things that I know women have not even
17:57
Speaker 5: begun to deal with until their forties. And here's sixteen
18:00
Speaker 5: year old in front of me thinking through it, and
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Speaker 5: I'm like, oh my gosh, your life is going to
18:04
Speaker 5: be so different because you're starting in such a different,
18:08
Speaker 5: healthier place.
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Speaker 6: Yeah, you're not going to make like all these decisions
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Speaker 6: from a wounded place. Maybe you make a few, but
18:15
Speaker 6: you know, it's everybody's journey.
18:17
Speaker 4: Yeah. And to give an.
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Speaker 5: Example of this listening to the voice, there's one in
18:21
Speaker 5: there that's Marley. She was a volleyball player and she
18:24
Speaker 5: was really really good at it, and so we know
18:26
Speaker 5: we love girls to be good at things, and what happens,
18:28
Speaker 5: too is when you're good at something, it tends to
18:30
Speaker 5: be the only thing we focus on, and we're like,
18:32
Speaker 5: do that, do that, do that, and we don't create
18:35
Speaker 5: enough room again for a girl to explore. So Marley
18:38
Speaker 5: was making the varsity team as a freshman, and everyone
18:41
Speaker 5: was affirming her for it, and then her and her
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Speaker 5: mom had played volleyball, and so everyone was so proud.
18:47
Speaker 5: And I realized she was getting migraines and stomach aches
18:50
Speaker 5: and was so stressed out by the volleyball schedule, and
18:52
Speaker 5: I one day just decided to ask her, like, hey,
18:56
Speaker 5: do you like playing volleyball?
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Speaker 4: And that she was shocked. Literally no one had ever
19:01
Speaker 4: asked her is she liked playing volleyball?
19:04
Speaker 2: Right?
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Speaker 5: It was really just like so she responded, well, I
19:06
Speaker 5: like that I'm good at it. And I'm like, right, yeah,
19:09
Speaker 5: you're good at it, But do you like spending your
19:12
Speaker 5: time playing it? And then she said, well, I guess
19:15
Speaker 5: I can bond with my mom about it. And I
19:17
Speaker 5: was like, oh my gosh, like, O do you are
19:20
Speaker 5: you playing volleyball to make your mom happy? And she
19:22
Speaker 5: looked at me all wide eyed and was like, oh shit.
19:25
Speaker 5: And I like she realized how much almost people pleasing
19:29
Speaker 5: was also involved in her choices. And then I asked her, well,
19:32
Speaker 5: what would actually bring you joy? Like where are you
19:34
Speaker 5: finding joy? And she said that she would do fashion
19:37
Speaker 5: sketches on the bus ride to games. And I was like,
19:40
Speaker 5: oh my gosh, you know there's a sewing class this
19:42
Speaker 5: weekend that you should take. Do it on the weekends,
19:44
Speaker 5: and she was like, oh my gosh, can I do that?
19:45
Speaker 5: And slowly but surely, she ended up quitting the volleyball
19:48
Speaker 5: team with the support of her mom, and her migraines
19:50
Speaker 5: went away and her stomach aggs went away, and she
19:53
Speaker 5: became excellent at fashion design, Like she also had tons
19:57
Speaker 5: of excellence in that place too, but she was so
20:00
Speaker 5: much happier. So, but no one was even permissioning the
20:03
Speaker 5: space for her to explore and ask her what she wants.
20:07
Speaker 6: When you say explore, do you mean that we let
20:10
Speaker 6: boys explore more so, or like, can you talk to
20:13
Speaker 6: me more about the idea of exploration in girlhood?
20:16
Speaker 4: Yes?
20:16
Speaker 5: And it has also do with mistakes also, like we
20:19
Speaker 5: let boys make mistakes and be messy and it's just
20:23
Speaker 5: not a big deal. It's not they're part of their
20:25
Speaker 5: core identity, whereas when girls make a mistake or do
20:28
Speaker 5: something imperfectly, it's it somehow is absorbed into like I'm
20:31
Speaker 5: not good enough. There's a lot more messaging on girls
20:34
Speaker 5: being perfect and likable.
20:36
Speaker 4: That is what you know.
20:37
Speaker 5: Everyone's so worried about teenage girls being so stressed out
20:40
Speaker 5: and having so much anxiety.
20:42
Speaker 4: I would say those.
20:42
Speaker 5: Two pressures are the main source element to be perfect
20:46
Speaker 5: and to be likable.
20:47
Speaker 6: So it kind of means something about them as a
20:49
Speaker 6: person versus just like a skill set exactly exactly.
20:54
Speaker 4: Yeah.
20:54
Speaker 5: One of the girls they share in the books loves
20:56
Speaker 5: to do things she's bad at I and she bring
21:01
Speaker 5: I think it's so great because what if you just
21:03
Speaker 5: spend time doing things you were bad like? It seems
21:05
Speaker 5: like a radical idea, but she it brings her joy
21:08
Speaker 5: and she can explore and there's less pressure on her,
21:11
Speaker 5: and it's a space that girls don't get to spend
21:14
Speaker 5: time in a lot.
21:16
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think so on a biological and psychological level,
21:21
Speaker 6: can you explain what's happening with girls when they enter
21:24
Speaker 6: their teen years because you say that there's a wisdom
21:28
Speaker 6: that's actually brewing.
21:30
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, so the biology behind it.
21:32
Speaker 5: There are better books from you know, doctors and psychologists
21:36
Speaker 5: and stuff to explain, like hormones at that time and
21:38
Speaker 5: so on.
21:39
Speaker 4: But what I'm trying to lean into.
21:41
Speaker 5: Is how they have way deeper thoughts and reflections than
21:48
Speaker 5: perspectives at a much younger age than people think that
21:52
Speaker 5: they're ready for. So I've had a lot of moms
21:54
Speaker 5: be like, when is the time to be radically honest
21:57
Speaker 5: with your daughter?
21:57
Speaker 4: I talk about there's a chapter radical honesty.
21:59
Speaker 5: In there and being way more honest, and moms are
22:03
Speaker 5: really scared to get that honest with their daughter. And
22:06
Speaker 5: I often tell them, like, she's so much readier for
22:09
Speaker 5: that conversation, way earlier than you think she is. And
22:12
Speaker 5: the sooner you can set that those foundations of trust,
22:16
Speaker 5: the sooner she's going to start connecting to her own
22:19
Speaker 5: truth and her own honesty. And that's when you really
22:22
Speaker 5: start seeing wisdom flow out of our young age.
22:25
Speaker 6: I have a question about that. I want to understand
22:28
Speaker 6: what your perspective is on the line there, because I
22:31
Speaker 6: think of obviously my own mother, and she was always
22:35
Speaker 6: so honest with me and about taboo topics, right, Like
22:39
Speaker 6: she was so honest with me about sex at a
22:41
Speaker 6: young age. And at the same time, I think sometimes
22:45
Speaker 6: when parents tell children honest stories, it almost gives the
22:49
Speaker 6: kids unspoken permission to also do those things. And so,
22:54
Speaker 6: for instance, if your mom says, yeah, I tried weed
22:58
Speaker 6: when I was thirteen. I didn't like it, but I
23:00
Speaker 6: tried it, I feel like that kind of gives the
23:03
Speaker 6: kid permission a little bit. So how do you share
23:06
Speaker 6: your honest story and also not give permission to things
23:10
Speaker 6: that you don't want them doing?
23:12
Speaker 5: Right, So it's a great question, and again it's just
23:15
Speaker 5: continuing the conversation, so what you need to keep talking?
23:18
Speaker 5: So maybe a mom does say that, but then you say, well,
23:21
Speaker 5: what do you think about that? What do you think
23:23
Speaker 5: about the fact that I smoked tweed at that age?
23:25
Speaker 5: Do you feel like that was an appropriate age for
23:27
Speaker 5: me to do that? Like include her in the analysis
23:31
Speaker 5: of it and respect her thoughts on it. Because when
23:34
Speaker 5: she knows that you respect and trust her thoughts, she
23:36
Speaker 5: up levels. She's like, oh, well, like, I gotta think
23:38
Speaker 5: of something smart to say. And then you affirm and say, oh,
23:41
Speaker 5: that was really smart, that was a because most likely
23:44
Speaker 5: a girl. I've had this kind of conversation honestly with
23:47
Speaker 5: a girl and she gives me a really fair assessment
23:51
Speaker 5: of the drinking culture and all these kind of taboo things,
23:54
Speaker 5: and I'm like, well, what do you think? What do
23:56
Speaker 5: you evaluate is a healthy participation in this for yourself?
24:00
Speaker 5: So and then she has to sit and think about it.
24:02
Speaker 4: She has to.
24:03
Speaker 5: Connect to herself, connect to what she believes about this,
24:06
Speaker 5: what would make her happy, what feels healthy? Because I
24:09
Speaker 5: am trusting her to evaluate that for herself, and when
24:13
Speaker 5: I give her that type of trust, she rises to
24:15
Speaker 5: the occasion.
24:17
Speaker 6: So you've worked with so many young girls at this point,
24:21
Speaker 6: what is similar to our teenage experience and what is
24:26
Speaker 6: wildly different in twenty twenty four.
24:29
Speaker 5: Well, these girls are definitely more activists in general.
24:32
Speaker 4: They want to make change, like they are.
24:35
Speaker 5: Not going to be quiet, Like they do not want
24:37
Speaker 5: to be silenced, which I just love, which is a
24:39
Speaker 5: huge part of this book too, is activating, like telling
24:42
Speaker 5: the world, hey, we do not silence these girls because
24:45
Speaker 5: they are an underestimated power in the world, a powerful
24:48
Speaker 5: positive change, right. And so I don't remember, and I'm
24:54
Speaker 5: kind of an activist type of person, I am, right,
24:56
Speaker 5: but I was not even.
24:57
Speaker 4: That dial up at that age as they were.
25:00
Speaker 5: And then secondly, there's a women supporting women culture. It's
25:03
Speaker 5: a big shift. Growing up, I felt, you know, there
25:06
Speaker 5: was still that mentality of one seat at the table
25:08
Speaker 5: for a woman, whether you know it's in the boardroom
25:11
Speaker 5: or whatever table you're trying to set it. And these girls,
25:15
Speaker 5: they have had better access to media where women have
25:18
Speaker 5: been in places of power more and so on, so
25:20
Speaker 5: they don't see it that way.
25:21
Speaker 4: And there's a lot more.
25:23
Speaker 5: Women supporting women narratives of like girls just gassing each
25:27
Speaker 5: other up and encouraging each other.
25:29
Speaker 4: I mean, they encourage me.
25:32
Speaker 6: They're a great I see that all the time. I'll
25:35
Speaker 6: go to a restaurant. I was on a date a
25:38
Speaker 6: few months ago and I was at a restaurant in Vegas.
25:42
Speaker 6: I don't talk about my dating life pop on this podcast,
25:44
Speaker 6: but I was at a restaurant in Vegas and this
25:47
Speaker 6: the hostess was probably like nineteen, and she seats us,
25:50
Speaker 6: and then she comes back five minutes later and she goes,
25:53
Speaker 6: I just have to tell you you're so pretty.
25:56
Speaker 2: And I was like, that is so.
25:58
Speaker 6: And you know, we had our moments, and the guy
26:01
Speaker 6: looked at me and he was like, that's like happened
26:04
Speaker 6: while we've been together before, and I was like, it
26:07
Speaker 6: has nothing to do with me. It's this young generation
26:10
Speaker 6: of girls that are so freaking awesome and hype each
26:13
Speaker 6: other up. It's so we never did that. It's so
26:17
Speaker 6: beautiful and it's contagious totally.
26:20
Speaker 5: And yeah, we were taught to compete. They're that whole
26:22
Speaker 5: idea that women compete. It's so it's so sad and
26:25
Speaker 5: destructive and I can still see so much harm in
26:28
Speaker 5: older generations of it's still playing out. And that's why
26:31
Speaker 5: I'm really trying to shine a light on like, no, they're.
26:33
Speaker 4: Doing it better than us. Let's do what they're doing.
26:40
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Speaker 6: So, okay, I'm going to switch gears to a little
28:21
Speaker 6: bit of sadness. But I read this study that was
28:25
Speaker 6: published by the CDC in twenty twenty three, and it
28:28
Speaker 6: found that fifty seven percent of high school girls reported
28:31
Speaker 6: experiencing persistent feelings of sadness or hopelessness in the past year,
28:35
Speaker 6: and that was up thirty six percent from twenty eleven.
28:39
Speaker 6: So that's also nearly twice as high as males, which
28:42
Speaker 6: I found pretty astounding. How much of that can be
28:46
Speaker 6: attributed to social media and smartphones and what is going
28:50
Speaker 6: on here?
28:51
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I am very familiar with this study, and
28:55
Speaker 5: of course, you know so many people reached out about it. First,
28:59
Speaker 5: want to take it back real quick to what I
29:00
Speaker 5: said about I believe the pressure on girls to be
29:03
Speaker 5: perfect and likable is the bay like the root of
29:07
Speaker 5: everything of what I'm seeing on the girls. And that's
29:09
Speaker 5: what they tell me, that's what they tell me in
29:12
Speaker 5: terms of social media, and this is a complex issue. Okay,
29:15
Speaker 5: I'm not going to try to make huge generalizations here.
29:19
Speaker 5: I of course, there are really problematic, toxic aspects that
29:24
Speaker 5: are not good, and social media is not going anywhere.
29:29
Speaker 5: So what I have really leaned into is a much
29:32
Speaker 5: more positive conversation, which is about media literacy, which is
29:35
Speaker 5: just a boring way of saying that I talk with
29:38
Speaker 5: the girls about the accounts that they're following and the
29:41
Speaker 5: shows that they're watching. And I do it in this
29:43
Speaker 5: like lighthearted, I'm actually interested in it type of way,
29:48
Speaker 5: not in a oh my gosh, put your phone down
29:50
Speaker 5: that social media is destroying you and judge, judge, judge,
29:53
Speaker 5: because the minute they feel the judgment and the shame
29:56
Speaker 5: that close down, close off. You know, the doors are
29:59
Speaker 5: shut and you're not gonna be able to connect with them.
30:02
Speaker 4: So I have been.
30:04
Speaker 5: Able to help girls find a healthy relationship to social
30:08
Speaker 5: media without a doubt, just by being curious, just by
30:11
Speaker 5: guiding through, giving the ideas, talking it out with them.
30:14
Speaker 5: You know plenty of girls that you know set their
30:17
Speaker 5: phone aside at night because they don't want to scroll.
30:18
Speaker 4: So it's not like they're incapable of this.
30:21
Speaker 5: So I hate when it's like we just say social
30:23
Speaker 5: media is the villain that is destroy girls and their
30:26
Speaker 5: mental health, Okay, because I actually think there's more intense
30:31
Speaker 5: things going on. Is that we're teaching them fear. First
30:34
Speaker 5: of all, we're coming at them with so much fear
30:36
Speaker 5: about the social media conversation, and we're not coming at
30:38
Speaker 5: them with trust that they can navigate it and tools
30:42
Speaker 5: to navigate it in a way that is empowering and
30:45
Speaker 5: also flows with their natural inclinations. So a lot of
30:49
Speaker 5: what's out there is really like, dude, this do that?
30:52
Speaker 5: You know that's bad and instead being like one of
30:55
Speaker 5: my favorite things to say to a girl is what
30:57
Speaker 5: do you think the solution is? I constantly ask her that,
31:00
Speaker 5: and their solutions are so much better than our solutions,
31:04
Speaker 5: and when she comes up with it herself, then she
31:07
Speaker 5: does it right. Like I could tell a girl, well,
31:09
Speaker 5: maybe you should put your phone away at night, Like
31:12
Speaker 5: it's so stupid to even think of me telling a
31:14
Speaker 5: girl that, Like, not the basically I say, well, okay,
31:17
Speaker 5: so how have you been feeling it night? Like, okay,
31:19
Speaker 5: you've been, She'll share with me she's been scrolling endlessly
31:22
Speaker 5: and I'm like, how did that make you feel? And
31:23
Speaker 5: then she'll share, oh it was I don't know, it
31:26
Speaker 5: didn't feel good. I'm like, okay, well, what do you
31:27
Speaker 5: think is a solution to do about it? And then
31:30
Speaker 5: she'll come up with ideas and we just talk it
31:31
Speaker 5: out in a way that I have no agenda, not
31:34
Speaker 5: judging her, just talking it out with her and respecting
31:37
Speaker 5: and trusting her choices.
31:40
Speaker 6: What do you think the solution is? Is a revolutionary
31:43
Speaker 6: question that we could all be asking our friends and
31:45
Speaker 6: family as well, not just teenage girls, instead of just
31:48
Speaker 6: giving our opinions unsolicited.
31:50
Speaker 4: Exactly, So, everyone loves to fix each other. They love.
31:54
Speaker 5: We love to slap positivity on people's problems. We love
31:57
Speaker 5: to solution them and and project our story on their story.
32:01
Speaker 5: So I see girls just wanting me to listen to
32:04
Speaker 5: their feelings. So oftentimes I'll even I phrase everything as
32:07
Speaker 5: a question. I'll be like, do you want me just
32:08
Speaker 5: listen to you right now? Or do you want do
32:10
Speaker 5: you want ideas on solutions? And usually they just want
32:13
Speaker 5: me to listen.
32:15
Speaker 4: It's cool.
32:16
Speaker 6: I mean, you're talking to the queen of loving questions,
32:20
Speaker 6: so you're in the right space.
32:21
Speaker 2: I love that.
32:22
Speaker 6: On the topic of social media, can you talk a
32:25
Speaker 6: little bit about your discovery on how teens are using
32:28
Speaker 6: the AI chat function on Snapchat.
32:31
Speaker 4: Yeah.
32:31
Speaker 5: So when it came out that they were using that
32:34
Speaker 5: AI bot like as a therapist, as a best friend
32:36
Speaker 5: and asking it really serious questions, and I was.
32:39
Speaker 4: Like, we would know, I was like, and it was interesting.
32:42
Speaker 5: They would show me some of the answers and I
32:43
Speaker 5: was like, oh, that's not a bad idea necessarily, but
32:46
Speaker 5: it was still alarming.
32:48
Speaker 4: But this is what it was. It was the actual
32:49
Speaker 4: key and it comes back to my main point again.
32:52
Speaker 4: AI doesn't judge them.
32:54
Speaker 5: They feel no judgment from AI. Therefore they can actually
32:58
Speaker 5: honestly share their true both and wow, what a revelation
33:04
Speaker 5: they're getting, like advice back. You know what if we
33:06
Speaker 5: did that in our human connection instead, maybe we could
33:11
Speaker 5: have more honest, connective relationships with each other.
33:15
Speaker 6: This is so thoughtful. Okay, So for many of us
33:19
Speaker 6: who don't have contact with teenage girls often, what do
33:22
Speaker 6: you think are easy entry points? Because I remember when
33:26
Speaker 6: I was a teenage girl, the question after I was
33:28
Speaker 6: like probably fifteen, the question everybody asked me was, so,
33:31
Speaker 6: where do you want to go to college, and I
33:33
Speaker 6: wanted to cry every time they asked me, Like I
33:37
Speaker 6: remember telling my mom like I'm not going to any
33:40
Speaker 6: of your friend's houses anymore. Like I can't ask answer
33:43
Speaker 6: that question anymore. So what's a better entry point?
33:46
Speaker 5: Yeah, So, by the way, that is so achievement focused.
33:49
Speaker 5: That question, by the way, and it's telling a girl
33:52
Speaker 5: that she is not going to be worthy unless she
33:54
Speaker 5: goes to a good college. Is how she hears that question,
33:58
Speaker 5: and that her worth is to her going to college.
34:01
Speaker 5: And that's the same thing with grades and same things
34:04
Speaker 5: with all A lot of the questions we ask girls
34:06
Speaker 5: is very achievement focused. So, first of all, I think
34:10
Speaker 5: that the media so back to media right. As much
34:12
Speaker 5: as everyone wants to villainize it, I think it is
34:15
Speaker 5: the way in to connecting with teenage girls. If you
34:18
Speaker 5: can find a common TV show, you are golden. That
34:21
Speaker 5: is always the best starting point. I've had the deepest
34:23
Speaker 5: conversations with girls about who loves who on a TV
34:26
Speaker 5: show and it's like, why do you think he likes her?
34:29
Speaker 4: You know, why do you think she likes him?
34:30
Speaker 5: Like you can really unpack some deep conversations from those
34:34
Speaker 5: type of questions, and then I like to ask actually
34:38
Speaker 5: the really deep questions to girls where I'll be.
34:41
Speaker 4: Like, what do you think beauty is something like that?
34:46
Speaker 4: You know, And I love their responses because they sit
34:49
Speaker 4: and think about it. Oh, you know a girl like sharing.
34:51
Speaker 5: The book talks about it being the energy you share,
34:53
Speaker 5: which I was like, Oh my gosh, that is such
34:55
Speaker 5: a great answer.
34:56
Speaker 6: It's so profound.
34:58
Speaker 4: Yeah. So, and it's kind of like I like.
35:01
Speaker 5: Asking them really deep philosophical questions. I'll also ask them
35:05
Speaker 5: about what they care about in the world, like what
35:07
Speaker 5: problems do they want to fix, what pulls at their heart,
35:10
Speaker 5: like what makes them kind of sad that that hasn't
35:12
Speaker 5: been fixed, and what do they wish they could make
35:15
Speaker 5: better about that?
35:16
Speaker 4: And that kind of is.
35:17
Speaker 5: A generative conversation too, that connects them to their heart
35:21
Speaker 5: and more meaningful topics than like where you're going to college.
35:25
Speaker 5: You have to also check yourself and think, what is
35:27
Speaker 5: my actual curiosity around what she's going through in life
35:30
Speaker 5: right now? You could say you're feeling a lot of
35:32
Speaker 5: pressure around your grades and getting into college. Like change
35:35
Speaker 5: the question a little bit so that she feels seen
35:37
Speaker 5: and she feels understood.
35:39
Speaker 6: So it's more about what do you think and how
35:41
Speaker 6: do you feel?
35:43
Speaker 5: Yeah?
35:43
Speaker 6: I love that. Okay, so we've touched down this, but
35:47
Speaker 6: I want to kind of like drive it home because
35:48
Speaker 6: I think you share it so beautifully. You talk a
35:52
Speaker 6: lot about holding space for teenage girls, so I think
35:56
Speaker 6: holding space for anybody is important. We could all be
35:58
Speaker 6: working on that. But in terms of teachers and parents specifically,
36:04
Speaker 6: why is it important to rethink how we're communicating with
36:07
Speaker 6: teens but specifically girls.
36:10
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's.
36:10
Speaker 5: About their feelings, and you know, everyone likes to say
36:14
Speaker 5: big feelings that they have.
36:15
Speaker 4: I actually believe everyone has big.
36:18
Speaker 5: Feelings and that as we move into adulthood, we're taught
36:21
Speaker 5: how to squash and contain and repress these feelings and
36:24
Speaker 5: box them in because oh my gosh, what if you
36:27
Speaker 5: were to have a moment where you're annoyed or irritated
36:30
Speaker 5: or angry or these kind of quote unquote displeasing feelings, frustrated, disappointed,
36:36
Speaker 5: and so instead by making space, holding space and making
36:41
Speaker 5: room for them to share something that isn't that great
36:44
Speaker 5: a space of discomfort, then it actually processes through them
36:49
Speaker 5: and it releases. It's not possible to have positive, happy
36:53
Speaker 5: feelings at every second and what we're teaching girls is
36:56
Speaker 5: when we squash that space. So when you see a
36:59
Speaker 5: girl that's feeling pain, right, of course, you want to
37:01
Speaker 5: make it better right away. You don't want to see
37:02
Speaker 5: her that way, so you slap positivity on it. You
37:04
Speaker 5: try to give her a solution right away. But what
37:07
Speaker 5: you're teaching her is that her feelings are bad, and
37:10
Speaker 5: so you gotta not do that. You got to avoid
37:12
Speaker 5: it at all costs, right to feel those more uncomfortable feelings,
37:15
Speaker 5: but they get they come out eventually, and usually in
37:19
Speaker 5: really unhealthy ways.
37:20
Speaker 4: They could come out physiologically.
37:22
Speaker 5: There's so many different ways they're finding that repressed feelings
37:24
Speaker 5: are problematic. So my holding space and I'm going to
37:28
Speaker 5: say specifically for displeasing feelings, we're also helping her feel
37:32
Speaker 5: understood and feel seen and just her humanity. We're all
37:37
Speaker 5: messy humans that are all just dealing with stuff sometimes.
37:40
Speaker 5: And I always recommend using the exact words that she
37:43
Speaker 5: used back. We're like, yeah, that does suck. That sounds
37:47
Speaker 5: really frustrating. I agree, that sounds annoying, and then that's it.
37:52
Speaker 4: That's all you say.
37:54
Speaker 6: I love the idea of affirming somebody because we all
37:57
Speaker 6: crave that that's all we want, even in a fight
37:59
Speaker 6: with a spat or a partner. Okay, so you say
38:02
Speaker 6: that teenage girls crave trust, and we talked about fear
38:06
Speaker 6: in regards to social media. But I learned from your
38:09
Speaker 6: book that we're kind of leading with fear when we
38:12
Speaker 6: address teenage girls across the board. Why is that such
38:16
Speaker 6: a mistake?
38:18
Speaker 4: Fear is, it.
38:21
Speaker 5: Doesn't generate anything positive, usually doesn't to me, I've been
38:27
Speaker 5: really fortunate. I was raised in a way that there
38:30
Speaker 5: wasn't a lot of fear, so I kind of experienced
38:33
Speaker 5: what it feels like to not have a ton of fear.
38:36
Speaker 5: People always call me fearless and stuff, and I know it,
38:38
Speaker 5: and it sounds almost not obnoxious to share that, because
38:41
Speaker 5: of course we're all struggling with fear, but there is
38:45
Speaker 5: a liberation, like you know, the last chapter's liberation and
38:48
Speaker 5: when you know, we all know what feels like when
38:50
Speaker 5: you're not feeling fear, you feel free, You feel liberated,
38:54
Speaker 5: and you feel like you're your authentic self. You feel
38:57
Speaker 5: connected to who you are. Fear is like a grip
39:00
Speaker 5: being contained energy that I talk about worry in there
39:03
Speaker 5: a lot. Worry is just this energy that takes up
39:08
Speaker 5: all the space in your brain and your heart, and
39:11
Speaker 5: if you weren't expending energy on that, it's instead open
39:14
Speaker 5: to so many other brave possibilities for your life.
39:18
Speaker 6: There's this magic that you talk about when a teenage
39:22
Speaker 6: girl feels good about herself, free to be her authentic self,
39:27
Speaker 6: probably the opposite of fear. How do you want to
39:30
Speaker 6: see the power that you talk about of being a
39:33
Speaker 6: teenage girl harnessed in our society?
39:36
Speaker 5: I would love a lot more messaging around loving girls
39:41
Speaker 5: exactly the way they are. It can come down to
39:44
Speaker 5: like letting them wear what they want, which is a
39:47
Speaker 5: pretty bold statement for parents, at least I know it is.
39:50
Speaker 4: I have found.
39:52
Speaker 5: A huge squashing that happens when a girl doesn't get
39:56
Speaker 5: to wear what she wants.
39:58
Speaker 6: You write about I'm sorry, So you say, like the
40:02
Speaker 6: tee teenagers have a habit of saying I'm sorry all
40:05
Speaker 6: the time, and we've all seen the Instagram memes where
40:08
Speaker 6: like women in general have a habit of saying I'm
40:11
Speaker 6: sorry all the time.
40:12
Speaker 5: That's one hundred percent a pattern that starts with teenage
40:14
Speaker 5: girls and carries into womanhood.
40:16
Speaker 6: The pattern that you're talking about. You say, like, oftentimes
40:19
Speaker 6: stems from their obsession with perfection. So this is a
40:22
Speaker 6: two part question. One can you explain how it ties
40:24
Speaker 6: to perfection? And then also how do we grow out
40:28
Speaker 6: of some of these traits as we get older, because
40:30
Speaker 6: I think a lot of us haven't.
40:32
Speaker 4: Yeah, great questions.
40:34
Speaker 5: As I would expect from you, the Queen of questioning
40:37
Speaker 5: okay when she's saying sorry, or when I'm saying sorry,
40:40
Speaker 5: I mean I had the same habit for sure, and
40:41
Speaker 5: I've gotten so much better at is. It's kind of
40:44
Speaker 5: like you want to take up too much space. You
40:47
Speaker 5: want everyone to be happy around you. You want to
40:49
Speaker 5: make sure everyone else is good and taken care of
40:51
Speaker 5: and happy before yourself. So it's tied to people pleasing too,
40:54
Speaker 5: So both perfectionism and people pleasing because by making sure
40:59
Speaker 5: everyone around to you is like feeling good and they're
41:01
Speaker 5: not taking too much trouble, then you feel there's a
41:06
Speaker 5: stabilizing thing of like, okay, well I'm being good. I'm
41:09
Speaker 5: it's like a good girl mentality, right, Like I'm showing
41:11
Speaker 5: up perfectly because everyone is happy with me, right, and
41:16
Speaker 5: so sorry foresees all potentials where it's like oh my gosh,
41:19
Speaker 5: well sorry, you know, like if you accidentally perceive this
41:22
Speaker 5: as not great, I've already said sorry, just in case
41:25
Speaker 5: you think that. You know, so that they're happy and
41:27
Speaker 5: it's about their needs coming first. So another phrase, if
41:30
Speaker 5: the big one is it's fine, oh my gosh I
41:33
Speaker 5: talk about in the book. But girls, you know, they'll
41:36
Speaker 5: tell me horrific stories. I like to say, hey, you
41:39
Speaker 5: know what, it's not fine. That was that sounds awful,
41:42
Speaker 5: And also we want to help them realize what even
41:45
Speaker 5: isn't fine. But usually they're doing that because they're sensing
41:48
Speaker 5: your discomfort with the painful thing they're talking about. And
41:52
Speaker 5: no one can just handle sitting in the discomfort space
41:56
Speaker 5: because we have no space for women and girls to
42:00
Speaker 5: sit with displeasing energies like frustration, anger, these things like that,
42:05
Speaker 5: and there is permission for boys to feel anger. I
42:08
Speaker 5: will say that there is a clear gender difference in
42:11
Speaker 5: this answer your second question, which is how do we
42:13
Speaker 5: stop doing it? So I have just quite simply brought
42:16
Speaker 5: awareness to it. Right like with levity, whenever we're doing
42:20
Speaker 5: something in this space, I like to laugh at myself.
42:23
Speaker 5: I like to so what I committed to it? When
42:26
Speaker 5: I'm working with a girl too, Like if I say sorry,
42:28
Speaker 5: she can call me on it. We're like, hey, wait,
42:30
Speaker 5: you don't have to say sorry, And so when she
42:32
Speaker 5: does it, we make an agreement that I'm going to
42:34
Speaker 5: point it out every time she does it, or she'll
42:35
Speaker 5: do it to me. And then it's just straight up awareness,
42:39
Speaker 5: right all of a sudden, they're like, oh, whoa wait,
42:41
Speaker 5: I say it that much.
42:44
Speaker 6: People who listen every week will have heard me say
42:46
Speaker 6: this before. But a therapist said to me one time,
42:49
Speaker 6: why are you so willing to make yourself uncomfortable to
42:52
Speaker 6: make other people comfortable? And that was the first time
42:55
Speaker 6: I realized I engaged in any of this behavior, and
42:58
Speaker 6: I'm still trying to undo it. Not there, I still
43:01
Speaker 6: put myself in compromising positions to make other people comfortable.
43:05
Speaker 6: It's like, a It's a lifelong thing exactly.
43:08
Speaker 4: I mean, you're nailing it. I mean so much of
43:10
Speaker 4: that runs through this book.
43:13
Speaker 5: And it comes back to again, just what if we
43:16
Speaker 5: taught girls to actually check in with themselves and say
43:19
Speaker 5: what are my needs? What pleases me? And because when
43:23
Speaker 5: I tell a girl, hey, it's not fine, let's focus
43:25
Speaker 5: on your needs for a second, don't worry about my needs, Like,
43:29
Speaker 5: what do you need right now? What kind of support
43:31
Speaker 5: do you need around this awful thing.
43:32
Speaker 4: You just told me.
43:33
Speaker 6: This podcast was born from the book Beauty Sick, and
43:38
Speaker 6: in it she talks about how, no matter who or
43:41
Speaker 6: what you are as a girl or a woman, the
43:43
Speaker 6: most important thing you must be is pretty. And so
43:47
Speaker 6: I started asking people who the prettiest woman in their
43:50
Speaker 6: life was, and everybody said their mom, their sister, their aunt,
43:54
Speaker 6: their grandmother. No, not one person said the Instagram girl
43:58
Speaker 6: I followed yesterday. And I started thinking about women that
44:02
Speaker 6: were pretty bold, pretty witty, pretty strong, pretty smart. And
44:06
Speaker 6: you have this great section about compliments, and that's all
44:09
Speaker 6: I could think about because in the book, I learned
44:12
Speaker 6: from her that when you compliment a woman on her appearance,
44:16
Speaker 6: she actually feels more insecure about her appearance, even if
44:19
Speaker 6: she's being complimented, because all she starts thinking about is
44:22
Speaker 6: how her hair looks, or what her weight is, or
44:24
Speaker 6: how her eyelashes look.
44:25
Speaker 4: You can see how insecure.
44:26
Speaker 5: Oftentimes, girls who are societally defined as pretty tend to
44:30
Speaker 5: face the most insecurity because they their self worth is
44:33
Speaker 5: tied to this really intangible thing that feels out of control.
44:37
Speaker 6: Also, so you have this totally new take on compliments.
44:42
Speaker 6: So why do you think we're getting compliments all wrong compliments?
44:45
Speaker 5: I talk at length about giving really specific, long compliments
44:52
Speaker 5: that see a person's weirdness right, specificity. It's all about
44:56
Speaker 5: increasing specificity, length frequency. You know, often girls who are
45:00
Speaker 5: high achieving, we think that we're complimenting them, like, oh
45:04
Speaker 5: my god.
45:05
Speaker 4: You're awesome, You're so amazing.
45:06
Speaker 5: We think we're like helping their confidence, but what they're
45:09
Speaker 5: hearing is, oh my gosh, my good grades. My self
45:12
Speaker 5: forth is tied to my good grades, like that's what
45:14
Speaker 5: makes me worthy. And so it is actually about really
45:19
Speaker 5: deeply listening as usual and thinking about what makes a
45:23
Speaker 5: person unique. So it could be like, oh, we've off
45:27
Speaker 5: such a warm, loving energy, or I love the way
45:31
Speaker 5: that you thoughtfully follow up after we hang out and
45:35
Speaker 5: always send a thoughtful note, you know, like it's and
45:37
Speaker 5: something that they do. It takes practice, Okay, you really
45:42
Speaker 5: have to start looking at people, like taking a slower
45:45
Speaker 5: beat and looking at a person's uniqueness. And I would
45:48
Speaker 5: I like to use weird because I actually find it's
45:50
Speaker 5: an easier way in because we can spot a person
45:53
Speaker 5: what makes a person weird because we're all somehow we
45:56
Speaker 5: were conditioned to think that weird as bad. I think
45:58
Speaker 5: weird is awesome and it's everything, and it's connected to
46:01
Speaker 5: your authenticity. It's a huge part of this entire conversation.
46:04
Speaker 5: So I own the word weird in a big way.
46:07
Speaker 5: But that's an easier way in sometimes is when you're like, well,
46:10
Speaker 5: what makes that person weird? And then shift it in
46:13
Speaker 5: a compliment type of language and bring enthusiasm to it,
46:18
Speaker 5: and do it longer than you think you need to be.
46:20
Speaker 5: I always say, write a compliment that's three sentences long,
46:23
Speaker 5: not one sentence, because it does force you to go
46:27
Speaker 5: into the next layer and the next layer.
46:29
Speaker 6: It's funny you say that because I remember a text
46:32
Speaker 6: you sent me a few months ago and I read it.
46:35
Speaker 6: We didn't know each other that well at that point,
46:38
Speaker 6: and you sent me something that made me feel so
46:41
Speaker 6: seen and I was like, that was one of the
46:44
Speaker 6: kindest compliments I've ever received. And then when I read
46:47
Speaker 6: your chapter, I was like, this is so beautiful that
46:51
Speaker 6: you are so practiced at this. You give this gift
46:53
Speaker 6: to all the people in your life.
46:54
Speaker 4: I'm sure, Oh, thank you.
46:56
Speaker 5: Yeah, And you know what, it's this beautiful exchange of
46:59
Speaker 5: energy too. Like, I really have a lot of quality,
47:03
Speaker 5: loving relationships where there's a lot of connectedness because people
47:06
Speaker 5: feel seen and I surround myself with help with people
47:10
Speaker 5: that really see me. And the more I feel seen
47:14
Speaker 5: in my weirdness or authenticity, the more then it becomes
47:17
Speaker 5: confident and I express it bigger, and so I love
47:21
Speaker 5: to give it as a gift to people, like it
47:23
Speaker 5: is a gift you can give to anyone all the time,
47:26
Speaker 5: and it is free. But yeah, it takes a moment
47:30
Speaker 5: to get outside yourself and sit and think for a second.
47:33
Speaker 4: It's a practice, for sure.
47:35
Speaker 6: It is okay, So I want to take a step
47:37
Speaker 6: back because you've been so generous with your knowledge, But
47:40
Speaker 6: I really I want to know about the woman behind
47:44
Speaker 6: this book because I have an armchair theory that when
47:48
Speaker 6: people go into passionate professions, we are doing it to
47:52
Speaker 6: heal a part of ourselves oftentimes. And I'm wondering how
47:56
Speaker 6: this book helped you reconnect with your enter team.
48:00
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was.
48:02
Speaker 5: I was adultified, and there wasn't much space. My parents
48:07
Speaker 5: got divorced and I had to be what I felt
48:09
Speaker 5: like the stabilizing force, and so there wasn't space for
48:13
Speaker 5: my feelings and I one hundred percent needed. I thought
48:16
Speaker 5: the more perfect I was, the more pleasing I was,
48:19
Speaker 5: the more I would avoid pain in life, And then
48:22
Speaker 5: of course that completely wrenched open in my thirties. So yes,
48:28
Speaker 5: I do feel like I've been called to this work
48:30
Speaker 5: in healing my enterteenage girl and being the person in
48:35
Speaker 5: those girls' lives that I didn't have for myself. But yes,
48:39
Speaker 5: I think your theory is correct in that we are
48:41
Speaker 5: called to passionate work and it's a healing journey I think.
48:45
Speaker 6: So before you leave me, I have a few rapid
48:48
Speaker 6: fire questions. What is a character that you were drawn
48:52
Speaker 6: to in a movie, book, or TV show?
48:54
Speaker 4: Jane Austen, Yeah, amazing.
48:56
Speaker 6: Okay, you are a fabulous writer. So what does it
48:59
Speaker 6: go to writing tip that you lean on to encourage
49:02
Speaker 6: your pen or your typewriter or your computer to flow?
49:06
Speaker 5: Okay, I mean, obviously there's so many things. It's the
49:08
Speaker 5: hardest thing ever, right like setting inside time to write.
49:10
Speaker 5: Here's a really good one though, that gosh doesn't work
49:13
Speaker 5: before you finish work for the day, Like you're in
49:16
Speaker 5: you're kind of coming to a close of writing that day.
49:19
Speaker 5: Finish when you know exactly what you're gonna write next
49:23
Speaker 5: like you love the idea, you know exactly what you're
49:26
Speaker 5: gonna write, and then stop there, because then when you
49:29
Speaker 5: start the next day, it's so easy to get working.
49:32
Speaker 5: You're just like, oh right, no, I know exactly what
49:34
Speaker 5: I'm gonna write, and then you get into flow so
49:36
Speaker 5: much faster rather than kind of like sitting fresh again
49:39
Speaker 5: at the beginning the next day.
49:40
Speaker 6: That is such a good tip. I've never heard anyone
49:42
Speaker 6: say that.
49:43
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just discovered it on my own, haply.
49:47
Speaker 6: Okay. What is a book that you've read, something that
49:49
Speaker 6: you think everybody should read?
49:51
Speaker 4: The Gifts of Imperfection Brenne Brown. I think that it
49:55
Speaker 4: really is.
49:56
Speaker 5: Structured in a way that's so accessible to digest, and
50:00
Speaker 5: that each chapter something about life and living a more full,
50:03
Speaker 5: authentic life in the best of ways.
50:06
Speaker 6: What is a hard but freeing truth that you've learned.
50:09
Speaker 5: That I don't need anything outside of me to tell
50:14
Speaker 5: me I'm good or worthy.
50:18
Speaker 6: If I were in person, I'd say, snaps, that's a
50:20
Speaker 6: good one, so tell me when to stop.
50:23
Speaker 4: Stop.
50:25
Speaker 6: How would you describe yourself to a stranger.
50:28
Speaker 5: I would say I'm high energy and enthusiastic. I kind
50:32
Speaker 5: of have to tell people because otherwise they're like, is
50:34
Speaker 5: this for real? And so when they learn that, like
50:38
Speaker 5: I'm aware of my enthusiasm, they're like, okay, okay, she's
50:41
Speaker 5: at least aware of it.
50:43
Speaker 6: I love enthusiastic people. I think you're also incredibly warm.
50:47
Speaker 6: You're inviting, you are careful with your words, you're thoughtful,
50:53
Speaker 6: You're an ad value person.
50:54
Speaker 4: I could go on, but ah, thank you think for
50:57
Speaker 4: the compliments. Look at that to give me said the
50:59
Speaker 4: gift right now.
51:00
Speaker 6: And my last question is what is the smartest decision
51:03
Speaker 6: you've ever made.
51:05
Speaker 4: I've made a lot of smart decisions.
51:08
Speaker 5: And by the way, this is me also trying to
51:10
Speaker 5: model women like taking up space and owning their power,
51:14
Speaker 5: and it's been a journey for me to say that
51:16
Speaker 5: boldly and own it. I really have made a lot
51:18
Speaker 5: of smart decisions. I think moving to Los Angeles was
51:21
Speaker 5: a really good one for me. It really opened up
51:23
Speaker 5: my life and gave me exposure and access to things
51:27
Speaker 5: that would make my dreams come true.
51:29
Speaker 1: I think it was a bet on yourself. Okay, you
51:36
Speaker 1: know what time it is. Today's a good day. To
51:39
Speaker 1: have a good day.
51:40
Speaker 2: I'll see you next week.