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3: You Have a Calling (Dr. Karen Swallow Prior) · Finding God at Work

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(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi, I'm Chris.
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This is Finding God at Work.
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Just a reminder that Finding God at Work
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isn't just a podcast, it's also an online
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course.
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Check it out at findinggodatwork.org.
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Our current series is Meaningful Work, Calling, Formation,
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Service, and Love.
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And today we have the privilege of Karen
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Swallow Pryor joining us.
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Karen is the author of The Evangelical Imagination
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and On Reading Well, among other books, as
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well as her new book, which she'll be
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discussing today, You Have a Calling, Finding Your
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Vocation in the True, Good, and Beautiful.
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Karen is a frequent speaker, a senior fellow
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at the Trinity Forum, a contributing writer at
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the Dispatch, and a monthly columnist at Religion
0:59
News Service.
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Welcome, Karen.
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Thank you for joining us today.
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Thank you so much for having me, Chris.
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Absolutely.
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And just as a way to kind of
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get to know you before we dig into
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the themes from your book, I usually ask
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guests, what helps you find God at work?
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What helps you welcome God's presence on a
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normal workday?
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Well, since I primarily work at home writing,
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the way that I just get back into
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communion with God is to be outside.
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I like to run, I run slowly, but
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I love to, I love nature, I love
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his creation.
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And it just gives me peace and helps
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me to remember how much he loves us
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just because of the beauty that he creates
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in the world around us.
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Amen.
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Amen.
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I love in your book, you talked a
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little bit about running, and how running isn't
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something you need to be like elite at
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to enjoy.
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And that that spoke to my soul since
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I'm not a very fast runner myself.
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Well, speaking of the book, I found it
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very helpful.
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I probably say this too often, but it's
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really true.
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Sometimes I read a book for the podcast
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because I have to.
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But while I was reading this one, I
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just felt so engaged with it as, you
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know, it's the kind of book I would
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read just for my own purposes as well.
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So really lovely.
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And it's great to have a kind of
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writerly writer as well.
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So thank you for writing a book that
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aspires to be beautiful, not just talk about
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beauty.
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But one thing I really loved in the
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book is you talk about this kind of
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proverb we have in our culture of follow
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your passion, and how that's usually understood to
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mean get paid to do what you love.
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And you think this is actually bad advice
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when it comes to discerning work and meaningful
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work.
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So tell us more about that.
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Yeah, I have thought it was bad advice
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for my entire adult life, which began in
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the role of a teacher where I was
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encountering lots of young people getting this advice.
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And, you know, there are a couple things
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that it doesn't take into consideration following your
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passion doesn't take into consideration whether it's something
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that really the world needs.
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It doesn't take into consideration whether it's something
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that you can use to support yourself.
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It doesn't take into consideration some other points
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that I found out through my research for
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this book.
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And that is the fact and this is
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comes from Cal Newport, who's provided some very
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helpful insights in this topic that what he
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argues in his research shows is that our
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passion actually follows our competence and confidence.
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In other words, when we start to do
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something, and whatever it might be, but in
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work as well, if we do it for
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a while, we do it long enough, we
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get good at it that actually we get
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more passionate about it because we are competent
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and confident in it.
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So it's the reverse, according to his research.
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Now, I don't follow formulas.
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And of course, we have passions and desires
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and and if they are good ones, then
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certainly we should follow them.
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But the problem is that that has become
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a phrase that implies that if you follow
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your passion, you're going to be successful, you're
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going to make a lot of money and
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you won't have to work a day in
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your life.
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And those are the myths that I'm trying
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to combat in this book.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I also liked how you unfolded kind of
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in a literary way how the word passion
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can have other glosses or meanings that are
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actually helpful for thinking about our path as
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followers of Jesus.
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Could you speak a little bit more about
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that, like a broader view of what passion
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could mean?
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Yeah, I mean, it is etymology and I
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am a longtime English professor, so I love
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words and their histories, but passion literally means
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suffering.
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That's why we refer to Christ's sacrifice on
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the cross as the passion of Christ.
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It literally means suffering.
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And when we have a passion for something,
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that means that we are suffering for it
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if we are longing and haven't achieved it
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or that we are willing to suffer in
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order to achieve it.
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And we do have passions at times, and
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sometimes we are willing to suffer and we're
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grateful that Christ suffered for us.
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But a passion, it's not, we have to
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be willing to count the cost.
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It's not just as simple as, oh, I
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really aspire to this or I dream of
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this, so therefore I want it to happen.
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Passion entails a lot of suffering, and we
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have to be willing to put that suffering
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in whether we attain that thing or not.
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And one of the points that I make
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in the book, it kind of flippantly, but
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it's true, is that most great artists create
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their art out of their vast suffering.
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And if I'm never a great artist, that's
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actually okay with me because I'm not necessarily
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looking to suffer greatly.
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And so most of us are just ordinary
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people who will do ordinary things, and that's
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okay.
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I love your focus on ordinariness in the
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book too, just like the mundane, the undramatic
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can be a place where God meets us.
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Could you share a little bit more about
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that?
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Like, is it okay if I'm doing something,
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like, for example, I used to work at
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a mortgage company and I've never had a
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passion for mortgages.
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How can God still be in that even
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if I don't have some deep desire related
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to it?
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Yeah, I mean, quickly, I have like three
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things I'll say about, there are lots of
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things, but I'll limit it to three.
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I will say that one impetus for writing
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this book was my decades of teaching college
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students.
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In a particular moment in our history and
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culture, when they were getting the message, especially
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from the church, but also from the larger
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culture, that they have to do big things
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for God, great things for God, have great
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dreams and visions.
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And if they don't, then they are either
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not faithful, they don't love God or they're
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failures.
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And that is such a wrong message.
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I mean, some people will do great things,
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but the ones who don't, the ones who
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just do ordinary things and live ordinary lives
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faithfully and well, they are doing, they are
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honoring God and living lives of purpose and
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meaning.
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So that's one point.
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Your example of working for a mortgage company
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connects to a story someone told me when
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I was working on this book about how
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he had a regular kind of day job.
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And he actually had a Christian mentor tell
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him that he was in sin because the
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job that he had that was providing for
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himself and his family was not the work
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he was passionate about.
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Wow.
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And that's an extreme example, but that's the
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message he actually was given.
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But I think a lot of us are,
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even if it's not that explicit or that
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of that magnitude, we internalize the message that
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we must be doing something wrong because we're
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just doing ordinary work we're not passionate about.
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And then on the other end of life,
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you know, when I talk to people who
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are middle-aged or older, which I'm in
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that category myself, people who are looking back
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and thinking that they didn't accomplish something great
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and dramatic and viral worthy, that they somehow
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failed or they missed out.
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And I'm saying, no, absolutely not.
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I mean, the work that we do well
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in our everyday callings is worthy and good.
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And what, again, what most of us are
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supposed to do, what most of the people
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in human history have done and is what
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honors and glorifies God just as well as
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anything else.
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Amen.
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Amen.
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There's a short little chapter in the book
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called Definitions, and I love it when authors
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lay out their definitions.
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And in that chapter, so you've kind of
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talked about how our work can be meaningful,
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even if it's not something we're super passionate
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about or something dramatic or world-changing.
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But you also challenge the idea that vocation
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is limited to work or to paid work.
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So you write that vocation can transcend profession
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and pay.
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Can you tell us more what you mean
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by that?
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Yeah.
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So, I mean, we use these words interchangeably
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a lot or in different contexts, and so
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there can be overlap in meaning.
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But we talk about having a job, which
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is just something that brings in money.
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We might have a career, which is kind
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of a long trajectory where we're trying to
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improve and get a higher place along that
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profession.
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And vocation can be part of those.
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But there are also vocations, callings that might
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not have anything to do with getting paid
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work.
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Or we might be doing paid work.
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We might have a job that's not our
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vocation.
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Our vocation might be outside of the thing
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that we get paid to do.
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But it could be.
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It could be this.
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I mean, for a long time, I had
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a vocation as an English professor.
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I was getting paid to read books and
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write about them and teach them.
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And it was wonderful.
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And I don't get paid or at least
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not full time to do that anymore.
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And so in one way, I might say
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my vocation has changed.
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In another, it might be that, no, I'm
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still doing the same thing.
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It's just that I don't have the full
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time salary and the health insurance that go
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along with it.
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I'm still called to love literature, to share
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that love of literature, to write about it
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and talk to others about it.
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And so in that sense, my vocation hasn't
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changed.
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Although sometimes in life, they do, because vocation
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includes not just work that we do, but
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even roles that we fill, like being a
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family member, being a daughter, a son, a
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spouse, a friend, a neighbor.
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Those are also vocations.
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And we don't choose most of those kinds
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of vocations, or at least not initially.
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But we do choose whether to live into
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them faithfully and well, in a way that
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serves others and brings purpose and meaning into
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the world through our relationships.
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I love how you talked in the book
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about how we can have more than one
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vocation.
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Vocation can change over time.
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It's very dynamic.
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But then you also looked at things that
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you think are universal about Christian vocation, at
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least.
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And you write this.
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So this is from page 87.
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To find and live within your calling is
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to find and live in truth, goodness, and
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beauty.
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At the same time, the reverse is so.
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We are called to pursue truth, goodness, and
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beauty.
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We are called to pursue these in all
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we do and all we are.
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In fact, I don't think it's possible to
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pursue your calling without pursuing truth, goodness, and
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beauty.
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So I was wondering if you could tell
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us more about why do you think that
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truth, goodness, and beauty are truly universal in
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terms of calling?
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And how do we lean into them?
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Yeah, calling is such a big question in
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some ways.
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I tried to give some light on how
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it can be simple and ordinary in the
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book.
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But also, you know, because we live in
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this modern world, we're overwhelmed with choices and
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everything is laden kind of with existential angst.
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I a way of reversing it.
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The question is to say, OK, we may
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not know what we're called to do, but
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we can intentionally think about what is true
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and good and beautiful and pursue those.
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And and so when I talk about truth,
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I mean, obviously, especially as Christians today, we
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talk a lot about moral truth and that's
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important.
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But what I'm talking about in vocation is
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like knowing the truth about ourselves, like knowing
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our strengths and our weaknesses, what we're good
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at, what we're capable of, what we're not
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capable of, our limitations, our desires, knowing the
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truth about the world that we live in,
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the time, the place, the needs of the
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world right now.
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Because that's a big part of the purpose
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of our vocation is to serve others.
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And we might have a desire.
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I have a desire to be a New
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York Times bestseller.
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But you know what?
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The world does not need another New York
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Times bestseller.
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So, you know, I guess I was, you
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know, I knew better luck next time.
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But there are many things we might wish
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we could do and that the world wanted
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from us.
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But if they don't, then we have to
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keep pursuing our calling.
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So those are some of the truths that
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we need to reckon with as we pursue
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our callings.
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And goodness, I mean, I could have just
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simply in that chapter, just, you know, just
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handed you Dorothy Sayers, because I quote her
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so much.
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She has so much to say about work
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and how, you know, especially for the Christian
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that for the Christian, good work is work
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done well.
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And sometimes Christians, you know, like to just
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think it, you know, it's only the heart
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that matters or the intent that matters.
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And really, we really do have to do
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our work well in order for it to
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be Christian.
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That's how we serve the world well.
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And so it needs to be good work.
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It needs to be done well.
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And then, you know, I close on the
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note of beauty, which I think for many
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of us is, you know, we aren't trained
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in aesthetics and we have a very, the
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modern world has sort of corrupted and sullied
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the concept of beauty.
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And so we, you know, we might think
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it's, you know, beauty is so subjective.
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We have no idea what it is or
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how to define it.
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But so I draw on Aquinas, whose classical
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definition of beauty is that it exhibits proportion,
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integrity, and luminosity.
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And, you know, if we think of art,
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it's easier to see those qualities in a
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work of art.
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But I think we can apply these literal
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things metaphorically to our work lives and say,
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well, if proportion is part of what beauty
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is, then we need to really give our
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work the proportion that is due it and
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also the rest of our lives.
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Like if we have responsibilities to family, for
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example, and for caring for members of our
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family, that needs to take priority oftentimes before
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our own dreams and desires or, you know,
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income.
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So there's a proportionality involved in our whole
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lives and in our work lives.
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And there's integrity.
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I mean, that's sort of self-explanatory that
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we need to bring integrity and wholeness to
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our work.
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But my favorite quality that Aquinas draws on
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to talk about beauty is luminosity or illumination.
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And if we think about even the ordinary
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things that we do that actually shed light
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on the world or bring light to relationships
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rather than darkness.
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If we are trying to bring light and
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clarity and illumination and there's so many ways
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to do that.
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The accountant does that, the store clerk does
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that, the exterminator does that, the weatherman does
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that.
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So many people bring light and illumination to
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our lives and to our world through the
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work that they do well.
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But that's actually a way of cultivating and
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creating beauty in the world.
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And when we're doing that intentionally, we are
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living into our callings.
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And if we aren't sure what our calling
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is, we will find it in doing this.
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That's my argument.
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I love that image of luminosity, that like
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a plumber doing their job well is doing
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it to the glory of God.
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And God's goodness shines through good plumbing.
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And if you don't have good plumbing, you
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should feel the absence of it.
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Exactly.
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So to me, it's a dignifying vision of
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all kinds of work.
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I wish we had time to keep talking,
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but we're coming to the end of our
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time.
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So again, just as a reminder to listeners,
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the book is You Have a Calling, Finding
17:10
Your Vocation in the True, Good and Beautiful
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from Brazos Press.
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And then Karen, would you be willing to
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just close in prayer for that light to
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shine in the work of our listeners?
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Absolutely, I would love to.
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Dear Lord and Heavenly Father, you know each
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person who is listening to this conversation, you
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know their struggles and their questions and their
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desires, Lord.
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I pray that you would just simply show
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them how to pursue all the work that
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they do with more truth, more goodness, and
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more beauty, and to bring more of those
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into the world through their work.
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We ask this in the name of Jesus,
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who is the light of the world.
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Amen.
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Thanks for listening.
18:02
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18:03
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