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Navigating Your Path - S1E9: A Conversation with Kyle Rodino · Navigating Your Path

• 0:06
  Duane Newton: Hi, and welcome to Navigating Your Path.
• 0:09
  Duane Newton: I'm your host, Duane Newton.
• 0:11
  Duane Newton: This episode is a real gem.
• 0:13
  Duane Newton: I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation, and I know you'll love it, too.
• 0:17
  Duane Newton: I had the great pleasure of sitting down to chat with Dr.
• 0:21
  Duane Newton: Kyle Rodino, assistant director of the Clinical Microbiology Laboratory and director of the Rittenhouse Molecular Laboratory at the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania.
• 0:32
  Duane Newton: Kyle is a relatively new addition to my network, having gotten to know him over the past few years since establishing the Path Lab Happy Hours.
• 0:41
  Duane Newton: I've always enjoyed his insights and perspectives, and this episode will give you all a chance to experience not only his thoughtfulness but also his determination and tenacity.
• 0:54
  Duane Newton: Kyle shares wonderful stories about what he felt like was an idyllic upbringing in coastal Connecticut.
• 1:02
  Duane Newton: He talked about the impact of a peer mentoring program he participated in during high school and how it laid the foundation for him to be able to connect and communicate with people from very diverse backgrounds.
• 1:16
  Duane Newton: He revealed how his interactions as an undergrad at UNC Chapel Hill with clinical microbiology legend Peter Gilligan were really a turning point that helped him find his calling.
• 1:30
  Duane Newton: We also commiserated about what we've learned about progressing up the career ladder in academic institutions.
• 1:39
  Duane Newton: Kyle humbly described his professional portfolio as a, quote,"collection of practical solutions developed in the face of chaos." To me, this really supports the notion that being a jack-of-all-trades is valuable and promotable for clinical microbiologists.
• 1:58
  Duane Newton: I almost made it through the whole episode without getting emotional, but alas, it was not to be.
• 2:04
  Duane Newton: Please enjoy my conversation with Kyle Rodino What's been going on?
• 2:15
  Kyle Rodino: Um, I don't know.
• 2:16
  Kyle Rodino: Lots of system stuff.
• 2:19
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 2:20
  Kyle Rodino: Hmm.
• 2:20
  Duane Newton: It's, um...
• 2:23
  Duane Newton: seems like this has been a summer of lots of different weird things going on, and-
• 2:30
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 2:31
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah
• 2:31
  Duane Newton: uh, uh, my introduction back into public health has put me right into the- Mm-hmm to the mix of all that.
• 2:41
  Duane Newton: We had a interesting LRN-related event this week that's been ongoing, but still it's kind of-- I think it's winding down.
• 2:52
  Duane Newton: So, uh, a real live thing as opposed to an exercise, so that was interesting to see all of those parts kind of moving and coming together.
• 3:04
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 3:05
  Kyle Rodino: Yep.
• 3:07
  Duane Newton: Well, the, um, the format for this is not unlike what we're used to from a conversation standpoint on happy hours as, as we talked about before.
• 3:20
  Duane Newton: You know, I don't, I don't have a script.
• 3:22
  Duane Newton: I don't have a playbook.
• 3:24
  Duane Newton: Um, I have a few thoughts in my head, um, but it really is just a conversation between two friends and colleagues talking about things that are important.
• 3:36
  Duane Newton: And I, I think that the, you know, the thing that I've found fascinating as I've done more of these is just how, um, how unique everybody's journey is and how influential the early parts of our lives have been on, you know, getting us to the point that we are now.
• 4:04
  Duane Newton: And so, you know, the, the early years, um, you know, where people grew up and the kinds of things that they were exposed to, the-- their family life, the, you know, what their parents did, what their families did, the towns they grew up in, um, all have had interesting impacts on folks.
• 4:27
  Duane Newton: And I think that's, for me, has been, um, has been really interesting and a great way to connect with people, uh, and, and really feel like I'm getting to know them as a person.
• 4:43
  Duane Newton: So that's where I've, I've really started out with the conversations is like- Where are you from?
• 4:52
  Duane Newton: Where-- How did-- Where did you grow up?
• 4:53
  Duane Newton: What was your family life like?
• 4:55
  Duane Newton: And what, what did your parents do?
• 4:59
  Kyle Rodino: Okay.
• 5:01
  Duane Newton: So that's the question There isn't any real, like,"Okay, now we're gonna start recording,"'cause it's ABR, always be recording.
• 5:11
  Duane Newton: And, uh, so anything that we say is kind of fair game unless you tell me no.
• 5:17
  Kyle Rodino: Got it.
• 5:17
  Kyle Rodino: So yeah, I, I grew up in New England.
• 5:20
  Kyle Rodino: I grew, I grew up in Connecticut on, like, the far southeast corner, so border of Rhode Island on the water near all the old, like, uh, sh- shipping and kind of areas.
• 5:34
  Kyle Rodino: Um, I'm an only child.
• 5:36
  Kyle Rodino: People that know me m- might, might be able to tell that.
• 5:39
  Kyle Rodino: I don't know.
• 5:41
  Kyle Rodino: Uh, but I, like, I, I grew up in a fantastic family.
• 5:45
  Kyle Rodino: My parents were, um...
• 5:47
  Kyle Rodino: One of my parents is a teacher, the other one was a s- state police officer.
• 5:52
  Kyle Rodino: They're not science people at all, but they really pushed me in, to, in all of those aspects of, of school, and I was from a young age really interested in science, so I guess it started w- there, and with their encouragement.
• 6:09
  Kyle Rodino: Um-
• 6:10
  Duane Newton: Before you get off that, I, I have to go into the state police officer.
• 6:16
  Duane Newton: If I remember correctly, and I don't know why this is sticking in my head, but I feel like the Connecticut state police officer uniforms are really, like, opulent and shar- You know, like, there's a lot going on with...
• 6:32
  Duane Newton: I seem to remember some kind of, like, belt across the chest, and the big flat cap, and-
• 6:38
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:40
  Kyle Rodino: They, they, they are rather, uh, elaborate in their dress v- version.
• 6:44
  Kyle Rodino: Yes, yes.
• 6:46
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 6:46
  Kyle Rodino: I remember that as a kid too when my dad would get dressed up in for particular special occasion things and those th- Yep.
• 6:55
  Duane Newton: My dad was in the military, and they had, um, you know, similar high-level dress uniforms that...
• 7:05
  Duane Newton: Uh, I remember sort of like a, a short coat tuxedo that he wore- Yeah with all of his stuff on.
• 7:14
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 7:14
  Duane Newton: So yeah.
• 7:15
  Duane Newton: So okay, so then science at an early age.
• 7:18
  Duane Newton: What was, where was that- Do you remember things that kind of sparked that interest?
• 7:27
  Kyle Rodino: You know, like, like little fading images on a, like a movie reel, you know?
• 7:32
  Kyle Rodino: I have like little things.
• 7:33
  Kyle Rodino: I, I remember having some really influential middle school level science teachers.
• 7:39
  Kyle Rodino: I remember, um, I can't remember what grade that it was, something like sixth or so grade, a teacher who really, like put in a lot of extra effort, like after school sort of time on these special science projects that led me to do like the middle school science fair.
• 7:59
  Kyle Rodino: You know, at, at the earliest age you could do it.
• 8:03
  Kyle Rodino: I remember I had a science project, it was called the coefficient of restitution of golf balls and its impact- on like distance.
• 8:12
  Kyle Rodino: And my dad and I built like this, uh, golf ball hitting machine, a very rudimentary one with a spring and an old golf club, and I learned how, you know, the plasticity and the how solid or soft the golf ball was impacted how far it went, like as a little kid.
• 8:29
  Kyle Rodino: Uh, that was really, really cool.
• 8:32
  Kyle Rodino: Um, I remember in one of those middle school age grades getting the opportunity to do a summer program called Project Oceanology, where I spent like weeks with this group that would go out and measure the oxygen and the salinity in the marshland and catch crabs and measure them and survey the, you know, s- shellfish in the, the area.
• 8:55
  Kyle Rodino: I- just like things now that just seem like so lucky and, uh, and all of that, like the curiosity part, the variety, the, the new things you can learn, being exposed to all that.
• 9:10
  Kyle Rodino: I've- all of those are little pieces along the path
• 9:15
  Duane Newton: What was high school like?
• 9:18
  Kyle Rodino: I, I had a-- I loved high school.
• 9:20
  Kyle Rodino: My high school was… I went to a really large high school, like 500 and something kids per, per class.
• 9:25
  Kyle Rodino: So lar- large for our area.
• 9:26
  Kyle Rodino: I don't know.
• 9:26
  Kyle Rodino: Mm-hmm.
• 9:26
  Kyle Rodino: People will probably say that's small, but, you know, 2,400 or so kids in the school.
• 9:33
  Kyle Rodino: Um, it's kind of like a mini college, college campus organization.
• 9:37
  Kyle Rodino: You change buildings.
• 9:38
  Kyle Rodino: The buildings are by subject.
• 9:41
  Kyle Rodino: And, uh, yeah, you know, really was into math and science a lot during high school as well.
• 9:49
  Kyle Rodino: Um, it's always been a thread, for sure.
• 9:51
  Kyle Rodino: Like, definitely knew I was doing something in the science arena.
• 9:56
  Kyle Rodino: Cer- uh, probably like most, most kids that are interested in that, thought it was medicine, thought it was being a physician, um, early on.
• 10:05
  Kyle Rodino: But, you know, pa- paths change, but the thread is the same and- Mm-hmm and the interest early.
• 10:10
  Duane Newton: What were kinds of other things that you were involved in when you were in those- Oh, yeah formative years?
• 10:17
  Kyle Rodino: Lots of things.
• 10:17
  Kyle Rodino: I, I did, um… I was in a lot of sports.
• 10:21
  Kyle Rodino: I played, played soccer for four years and then actually played a little bit on a, on a, like, national club team for UNC when I was in college.
• 10:29
  Kyle Rodino: I played, played golf in, um, in high school and still, and then played a lot of golf after college for a while while I was working.
• 10:38
  Kyle Rodino: Um, still like to play when I can.
• 10:41
  Kyle Rodino: Um, I was in a group, uh, called Project Outreach.
• 10:44
  Kyle Rodino: It was sort of like a mentorship and, uh, mediation type group of students.
• 10:51
  Kyle Rodino: When there was, like, student-to-student conflict, we would sit down with them.
• 10:56
  Kyle Rodino: You know, in- instead of a authority figure at the school, it, it would be like a guidance counselor and a, and a peer, and we'd work on mediation and those types of things.
• 11:09
  Kyle Rodino: Um, I don't know.
• 11:11
  Kyle Rodino: I was, like, a, a very active high school time, and really look back on it fondly, like a idyllic type of place and, and opportunity and friends and community and all that stuff.
• 11:24
  Duane Newton: That, um, the peer-to-peer conflict resolution, that's a really interesting and a unique experience.
• 11:34
  Kyle Rodino: I would say the thing I think about the most with it is how it really broadened my community.
• 11:42
  Kyle Rodino: Um, you know, I came from a very small town, like- You know, 40 kids in our graduating class that fed into this larger high school.
• 11:54
  Kyle Rodino: Um, where, you know, it's- there's one traffic light and not really much going in that, in that town.
• 12:00
  Kyle Rodino: So exposure's pretty minimal in that- Mm-hmm setting.
• 12:04
  Kyle Rodino: Then you go to a bigger high school where there's considerably more diversity for the region, not probably on a city, large city type scale, but considerably more.
• 12:14
  Kyle Rodino: And when you're involved, frankly, in like particular clubs of interest and sports and stuff, I, I would say you still end up in a pretty narrow group of individuals.
• 12:25
  Kyle Rodino: You have a, a very similar background interest to- that leads you to those types of hobbies.
• 12:32
  Kyle Rodino: In this, like, Project Outreach, which is about community service and partially the mediation and, you know, um, mentoring and guiding and helping people, the people that flock to that are not necessarily of the same background.
• 12:47
  Kyle Rodino: They...
• 12:47
  Kyle Rodino: So I learned a lot about people and their differences and, um, accepting them and getting to know them and working through things on a level that was much different than, say, growing up in this really small town type thing.
• 13:03
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 13:03
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 13:05
  Duane Newton: I can imagine.
• 13:07
  Duane Newton: I mean, it seems obvious and to say it out loud, but that had to have a huge impact on you and, and sort of provided you with an opportunity to develop skills and perspectives that you have to still be using.
• 13:24
  Kyle Rodino: Uh, uh, yeah.
• 13:25
  Kyle Rodino: I, I do still think back on some of our retreats where we would work on just the way we frame our conversation, the words that you use to, i- in a very intentional way.
• 13:40
  Kyle Rodino: Telling people how, instead of telling people what they did, telling them how you made them feel Uh, or they made you feel, sorry.
• 13:49
  Kyle Rodino: Mm-hmm.
• 13:49
  Kyle Rodino: You know, you lead with I, I feel-
• 13:52
  Duane Newton: When you, because
• 13:53
  Kyle Rodino: when- When you, instead of saying,"You did this." It, it's, uh...
• 13:59
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah, there's, there's still things where I find myself reorganizing the way I'm gonna say something before I say it, and I'm thinking about when I was in 10th grade, and I got that experience on this, like, retreat with people, and now it's still something I-
• 14:18
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm
• 14:18
  Kyle Rodino: employ and, and try to be, like, c- uh, cognizant of.
• 14:22
  Kyle Rodino: Like, a thing that you may not do if, if your subconscious is not kicking in.
• 14:27
  Kyle Rodino: Mm-hmm.
• 14:27
  Kyle Rodino: A thing that's easy to, to say things in a different way or come off in a way that is less productive or shut somebody down.
• 14:34
  Kyle Rodino: And now still think back to, you know, 25 years ago and learning to reframe or res- you know, reword things to st- to talk to people.
• 14:46
  Kyle Rodino: Mm-hmm.
• 14:46
  Kyle Rodino: To get them to listen and not feel attacked.
• 14:51
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 14:53
  Duane Newton: That's, um, that's really cool to have that ki- that kind of experience a- at a young age.
• 15:02
  Duane Newton: Uh, I wonder w- was there any from, you know, kind of a mentor standpoint, was there anybody in particular that stands out during that time, whether it was with that- Experience or, you know, through high school, I had, you know, I had a...
• 15:20
  Duane Newton: I went to a Catholic high school and there w- the Irish Catholic nun, Sister Christine Julie, who was my science teacher my freshman year and my senior year, was, she was that person for me.
• 15:33
  Duane Newton: "Mr.
• 15:33
  Duane Newton: Newton." Can still hear her voice, you know.
• 15:38
  Duane Newton: And she pushed me and supported me in a variety of different ways that...
• 15:43
  Duane Newton: And that was, you know, she was the one that In, in many ways influenced me, you know, to, to go down the science path and when I got to college.
• 15:59
  Duane Newton: Um-
• 16:00
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah, the person who ran that program, her name was Kathy Micklum.
• 16:04
  Kyle Rodino: She was like this incredibly, um, kind and understanding individual who also, um, never let you slip, and was, uh...
• 16:20
  Kyle Rodino: Didn't, didn't back down from anybody, and was everyone's fiercest advocate when they needed it.
• 16:26
  Kyle Rodino: She had this incredible, uh, personality and, um, so yeah, I learned a lot from, from her.
• 16:35
  Kyle Rodino: She was extremely supportive.
• 16:37
  Kyle Rodino: She also would not hesitate to, um, put you in your place when you needed it.
• 16:44
  Kyle Rodino: Um, one of our...
• 16:47
  Kyle Rodino: There were multiple principals at this school, by the way the place is designed.
• 16:50
  Kyle Rodino: I have a f- a principal, her name is Jackie Sullivan.
• 16:55
  Kyle Rodino: She is an, an, a family friend from, from my mom's side of childhood, but also then was one of my principals while I was in high school, and she was a huge supporter of me and where I wanted to go, and what I wanted to do, and still is, um, still is that way, you know, decades later.
• 17:17
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 17:18
  Duane Newton: W- that I, I value those- I have a few of those in my life like that- Yeah that go back that far.
• 17:28
  Duane Newton: So that's-- those are precious.
• 17:33
  Duane Newton: What is the-- what was the transition to college?
• 17:36
  Duane Newton: You know, how was, how did that What was that process like for you?
• 17:42
  Kyle Rodino: Um, it, it was, it was great, I think.
• 17:46
  Kyle Rodino: I went to, uh, the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill.
• 17:51
  Kyle Rodino: Um, I knew I wanted to go away for my college experience.
• 17:55
  Kyle Rodino: I wanted to be on my own.
• 17:57
  Kyle Rodino: I wanted to be somewhere different.
• 17:59
  Kyle Rodino: I wanted a bigger place coming from a 2,500-kid high school.
• 18:05
  Kyle Rodino: I wanted to go to someplace significantly larger.
• 18:09
  Kyle Rodino: Um, it didn't hurt that it was in, like, a, one of the most beautiful places in the country.
• 18:15
  Kyle Rodino: Uh, right, awesome.
• 18:16
  Kyle Rodino: Great weather.
• 18:18
  Kyle Rodino: Um, you know, the transition to f- from being an only child to then being really far away on your own was a little bit of an adjustment.
• 18:27
  Kyle Rodino: I'll, I'll say it was hard to be away, so far away from, from your family.
• 18:33
  Kyle Rodino: Um, but I still, you know, saw my parents a lot, talked to them a lot, all that.
• 18:36
  Kyle Rodino: But, you know, the, the adjustment, I think the largest adjustment was to being, you know, completely independent and maintaining that level of scholarly activity when there's infinite other things to be doing and-
• 18:49
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm
• 18:50
  Kyle Rodino: yeah.
• 18:52
  Duane Newton: Well, I think it, one of the things that I know we'll talk about is this.
• 18:57
  Duane Newton: You, you said something on one of the happy hour calls that I thought was, um, really insightful and very deep and real, and it's like there is no work-life balance.
• 19:14
  Duane Newton: It's life balance.
• 19:15
  Duane Newton: You know, it's all of these things are part of our lives.
• 19:20
  Duane Newton: And, uh, so I can imagine, I mean, I'm hearing a little bit of that in, in there.
• 19:25
  Duane Newton: You know, you've got an academic life, and you've got a social life and a family life and, and, and that's that juggling act.
• 19:36
  Duane Newton: You know, you're getting, um, a crash course into- How to manage it all
• 19:47
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah, I would say crash course is a pretty good w- word to describe that early phase there.
• 19:53
  Kyle Rodino: I w- I will say that ma- that, uh, I didn't have the most, um, uh, stellar, glowing undergraduate career in the academic world, which-
• 20:06
  Duane Newton: I'm so happy to hear you say that.
• 20:09
  Kyle Rodino: Which is to say that when, maybe when you think about, uh, balance and considering everything part of life, and I don't necessarily separate things, it, it takes a little practice to get used to that-
• 20:21
  Duane Newton: Yeah s-
• 20:22
  Kyle Rodino: strategy.
• 20:23
  Kyle Rodino: But, you know, I, I mentioned, I thought, like, like, maybe a lot of people, you think you're gonna go to college and do some generic science major, and you'll be pre-med, and you'll go here.
• 20:34
  Kyle Rodino: And I got about halfway through, and I didn't really wanna go to medical school anymore, and I think I was a little bit lost in what to do, and definitely affected my undergraduate time.
• 20:48
  Kyle Rodino: I mean, and, you know, we, we can talk about how, um, surprising, and things come into your life, and it completely changes your pathway.
• 20:57
  Kyle Rodino: But I'll, I'll say, like, you know, it was a bit to figure out as an undergrad.
• 21:01
  Kyle Rodino: Like, what...
• 21:02
  Kyle Rodino: I know I, these things are interesting to me, but I don't have this, like, straight direction, linear path that I know I wanna take anymore.
• 21:11
  Kyle Rodino: What am I gonna do?
• 21:12
  Kyle Rodino: There's, like, a lot of kind of figuring out in that period of time
• 21:19
  Duane Newton: I, I had the same experience, but it was You know, much later, I think I had already graduated and then started into graduate school because I, I still had the same thing, you know, like I like science, that equals medical school, you know, kind of thing.
• 21:40
  Duane Newton: Uh, but I, I wasn't convinced of it.
• 21:44
  Duane Newton: You know, going in, we...
• 21:45
  Duane Newton: At our university, we actually had a major in pre-medical studies, and I chose to come in as an undeclared science major, you know, just kind of generic and then declared biology.
• 21:59
  Duane Newton: Um, but, you know, kind of going down that pre-med pathway.
• 22:05
  Duane Newton: And I remember, you know, I went so far as, you know, studying for, uh, taking the MCATs and applying to medical schools and all that kind of stuff.
• 22:15
  Duane Newton: And I can remember the summer I guess it was the summer after my junior year, you know, s- quote, unquote,"studying for MCATs." And, you know, I'm looking at these pages and nothing's Nothing's going in.
• 22:36
  Duane Newton: I'm just turning the, turning the page, you know?
• 22:40
  Duane Newton: And, and I look back on it and it was like I, I had no...
• 22:46
  Duane Newton: I didn't, I didn't know how to...
• 22:48
  Duane Newton: I didn't know the feeling and I didn't know what to do about it, and I didn't even know how to recognize it, but I had no passion for it, and it...
• 22:56
  Duane Newton: I was going through the motions and doing what I thought I was supposed to do.
• 23:00
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 23:01
  Duane Newton: And, um, you know, I started...
• 23:06
  Duane Newton: I applied.
• 23:07
  Duane Newton: I was not, you know, academically stellar either, I think for a lot of the re- the same reasons.
• 23:12
  Duane Newton: I mean, it just kind of progressed and I, um, I was still in that ki- on that kind of pathway, but, um, nothing was really clicking.
• 23:28
  Duane Newton: And, um, when I...
• 23:30
  Duane Newton: You know, I kind of got, I got wait-listed at one medical school, didn't get into others.
• 23:34
  Duane Newton: I didn't really have...
• 23:36
  Duane Newton: I had geographic restrictions because of where, um, where I was a resident and because of my GPA and s- you know, MCAT scores and that kind of stuff didn't...
• 23:48
  Duane Newton: So I ended up going to grad school where I went to undergrad thinking, um, I would be able to kind of get my shit together from an academic standpoint and make myself a little more, um, attractive to these programs.
• 24:07
  Duane Newton: But then I started see- You know, a lot of my good friends were first-year med students, and they were getting blown away academically.
• 24:17
  Duane Newton: And I'm like,"Jesus, if they, these guys who I think, you know, were really smart and capable and are having to retake anatomy because they flunked, what am I gonna experience?" So that was my, my wake-up call, and it ended up, you know, I ended up being in a program and having other people around me that kind of It's like, uh, some light bulbs started going off and I started to feel a connection and feel some motivation and, you know, in, in microbiology and infectious disease and that kind of stuff.
• 24:54
  Duane Newton: So I, I get it and, um But it was a very bumpy path.
• 25:03
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 25:03
  Kyle Rodino: I mean, I think there's a lot of people with not so straight, uh, paths to, to where...
• 25:09
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah, it takes some figuring out to be in this sort of field and, you know, even to learn of it.
• 25:14
  Kyle Rodino: It's not the most well advertised.
• 25:16
  Kyle Rodino: It's not the top of everybody's list.
• 25:19
  Kyle Rodino: It's relatively small.
• 25:21
  Kyle Rodino: It takes a while to really understand.
• 25:25
  Duane Newton: So what was the...
• 25:27
  Duane Newton: What, you know, when the light bulb started going off for you, what, you know, what was that like?
• 25:32
  Duane Newton: What were the things that were happening that put you down that road?
• 25:37
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 25:38
  Kyle Rodino: So as a first semester freshman, I...
• 25:43
  Kyle Rodino: UNC does this thing or did, did this thing, I don't know if they still do, where you take a freshman, what they call freshman seminars.
• 25:50
  Kyle Rodino: These are like small group classes, maybe 20 students.
• 25:54
  Kyle Rodino: Usually the professor is like, I'll say like the, a full professor at the peak of whatever they do.
• 26:03
  Kyle Rodino: They teach like this niche topic thing.
• 26:07
  Kyle Rodino: That semester, in what I think was only twice in his entire career, Peter Gilligan taught a freshman seminar on emerging infectious diseases, and I was one of those 20-something students in that class.
• 26:20
  Kyle Rodino: So brand new.
• 26:23
  Kyle Rodino: It's my favorite class.
• 26:24
  Kyle Rodino: It's really, really interesting.
• 26:27
  Kyle Rodino: Uh, but it's sort of like, hey, it's this freshman seminar thing.
• 26:29
  Kyle Rodino: You take it for the seminar, the, the semester, and it's over.
• 26:32
  Kyle Rodino: And then so we...
• 26:33
  Kyle Rodino: It was great.
• 26:34
  Kyle Rodino: I did really well in that class.
• 26:36
  Kyle Rodino: I really liked Dr.
• 26:38
  Kyle Rodino: G.
• 26:39
  Kyle Rodino: And, uh, but I sort of let it go.
• 26:42
  Kyle Rodino: You know, I was still on the med school train at that point.
• 26:47
  Kyle Rodino: Um, so then end of sophomore year, sometime in junior year or something, I'm in this place where like, you know, I don't really know what I wanna do.
• 26:56
  Kyle Rodino: I'm doing average, uh, in my classes.
• 26:59
  Kyle Rodino: They're, you know, they're, I'm doing fine, but I'm not doing great.
• 27:04
  Kyle Rodino: Um, and I just cold emailed him.
• 27:09
  Kyle Rodino: I just cold emailed him and said,"I took your freshman seminar.
• 27:13
  Kyle Rodino: I don't know if you remember that.
• 27:15
  Kyle Rodino: Uh, I really liked it.
• 27:17
  Kyle Rodino: I'm at this point where I don't really know what I wanna do, but I know that that was really interesting.
• 27:21
  Kyle Rodino: Is, do you ever do any undergraduate research opportunity things within the clinical lab, et cetera?" And I got this like very immediate reply of,"I absolutely remember who you were.
• 27:33
  Kyle Rodino: You were like really great in that class and I loved teaching it.
• 27:36
  Kyle Rodino: And, and, uh, I've always wanted an un- undergrad to do research, but I've never known how to go about getting one to do it.
• 27:43
  Kyle Rodino: So why don't you just like come by next week and we'll talk about thing." So that- Um, one-off email led to, uh, some volunteer research in the lab for a few projects, some funded summer things that he pulled out of who knows what grant to be able to support me to live there and stay and do some work.
• 28:06
  Kyle Rodino: I changed my major to clinical laboratory science, as it was called at the time, so medical laboratory science now, and UNC has a undergraduate, um, degree in, in medical lab science that lets you get the degree and sit for your boards.
• 28:20
  Kyle Rodino: Um, obviously, and then became connected with Dr.
• 28:26
  Kyle Rodino: Melissa Miller.
• 28:27
  Kyle Rodino: At the same time, she was, you know, co-directing the lab with, with Peter Gilligan at the time, and that's the launching point of sort of everything, connecting to the two of them.
• 28:39
  Kyle Rodino: Um, you know, it goes as far as, like, when I finished my bachelor's degree.
• 28:43
  Kyle Rodino: I, I knew I wanted to work for a while.
• 28:45
  Kyle Rodino: I was pretty tired of going to school at that point, and so I worked for UNC Hospitals Micro Lab for four and a half years and did extra research projects with them.
• 28:57
  Kyle Rodino: And I think everyone thought I'd hang around for six to nine months, a year, apply to grad school, and I was there for much, much longer.
• 29:05
  Kyle Rodino: But I would definitely not change any part of that timeline.
• 29:10
  Kyle Rodino: The experience in the four and a half years was worth way more than anything I could have done otherwise.
• 29:16
  Kyle Rodino: But, but you know, that, that was the, that was the switch.
• 29:18
  Kyle Rodino: It was a, it was a reach out for some help from a person who I had known briefly, uh, but I thought that their job was really cool
• 29:32
  Duane Newton: You know, we have, um...
• 29:35
  Duane Newton: I'll, I'll-- If we have time, I'll share my Peter Gilligan story and the impact that he had on me.
• 29:42
  Duane Newton: Um, but I wanna hear more about, you know, the next steps and y- So was it you saw what Dr.
• 29:54
  Duane Newton: Gilligan and Dr.
• 29:55
  Duane Newton: Miller were doing and thought, you know,"That's what I wanna do"?
• 30:03
  Kyle Rodino: That's exactly what it was.
• 30:05
  Kyle Rodino: I mean, so I started in the clinical lab working for them, right?
• 30:09
  Kyle Rodino: So, and, and then after a couple years, I joined as a hospital employee.
• 30:14
  Kyle Rodino: It's a, it's a kind of a, I would say a, a tough direction to go.
• 30:21
  Kyle Rodino: You're, like, working on all these cutting-edge projects.
• 30:24
  Kyle Rodino: You're...
• 30:25
  Kyle Rodino: It's very exciting to work for the directors of the lab and hear, like, all of the things that they consider and why, why are they interested in particular projects, and how is it influential.
• 30:35
  Kyle Rodino: And there, you, you, you know, absorb a little bit of the connection to the clinical side and the patient and their ID colleagues and all those things.
• 30:44
  Kyle Rodino: And then, uh, and then I had, like, a day job, right?
• 30:48
  Kyle Rodino: Like I had a b- a bench to do, but that stuff was still really interesting to me.
• 30:54
  Kyle Rodino: So, um, again, extremely lucky to work with the people that I work with, worked with at UNC.
• 31:03
  Kyle Rodino: I could do all my, my day job work.
• 31:07
  Kyle Rodino: I worked in the login and spress- specimen processing area in the evening for, like, quite a long time, pro- probably because it allowed me to play golf every single morning before I went to work, but so I stayed there a while.
• 31:18
  Kyle Rodino: And, but then I moved to, I kind of had this, um, this, like, Swiss Army knife position at the end.
• 31:25
  Kyle Rodino: Like, I did a one month in the immunology lab doing, like, uh, you know, HIV tests and Anaplasma ehrlichia serologies and allergy testing, and then I'd go for the next month into bacteriology and do the urine culture bench or something, or whatever, the blood culture bench.
• 31:44
  Kyle Rodino: And then sometimes I rotated back up and covered over the processing space.
• 31:47
  Kyle Rodino: Like, it was kind of got to experience everything in, in being there in the evening and needing some molecular coverage.
• 31:55
  Kyle Rodino: I- and that was sort of taking off in that part of the laboratory.
• 31:59
  Kyle Rodino: Did a little bit of that too.
• 32:00
  Kyle Rodino: So it was fun to get the opportunity to be exposed to so much of the laboratory very early on.
• 32:09
  Kyle Rodino: Continued to work on sort of separate projects, attend some of the, like, plate rounds with the, when the ID fellows came through.
• 32:16
  Kyle Rodino: The flexibility was really great, but you're absolutely right.
• 32:21
  Kyle Rodino: There came the point, even though I really liked playing golf and I was very happy in the position that I was in, that I wanted the responsibility and the role and the decision maker piece, and I wanted to understand the laboratory and microbiology on a medical sense in, in a much higher level.
• 32:41
  Kyle Rodino: I wanted to, you know, chart the course and, and, and direct a lab, and there was only one way to do that, and that was to go back and get my doctorate and then go to a fellowship and come through ABMM and then that piece.
• 32:57
  Duane Newton: So what was that...
• 32:59
  Duane Newton: Well, wait a minute.
• 33:00
  Duane Newton: Before we get to those next steps Are there, not that you could, you know, identify just one, but are there some, like, high impact, um takeaways from that experience working on the bench that, you know, kind of similar to your peer, peer conflict resolution kind of experience.
• 33:34
  Duane Newton: This is another In many ways, it's a, it's a very peer environment working together kind of management, um, experience.
• 33:47
  Duane Newton: W- and what are some things that you've, that you can remember taking away that you, you know, in your role now, that has had an impact on you, or that you remember, that, or you apply?
• 34:03
  Kyle Rodino: You know, having a bench technologist background is one of the, um, things I'm most thankful for in my current role.
• 34:14
  Kyle Rodino: I...
• 34:15
  Kyle Rodino: The, the process and workflow and, um, lab environment just come so second nature.
• 34:26
  Kyle Rodino: But it's something that I regularly, like, try not to take for granted.
• 34:29
  Kyle Rodino: I mean, it's, it helps so much to understand how a technologist may view a workflow change or a new test implementation.
• 34:42
  Kyle Rodino: And even if I'm t- too far removed from that at this point however many years later, at least I remember to ask.
• 34:48
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 34:49
  Kyle Rodino: Uh, because I would say, like, one of the pieces I learned in that part is, like, the science is cool, the advancement is great.
• 34:56
  Kyle Rodino: It's all probably needed from a patient standpoint, but if it's unsustainable or doesn't flow well in the lab, or we skip the implementation optimization part, it's gonna fail.
• 35:12
  Kyle Rodino: Um, so I think I learned from that time a lot about, um, understanding the lab workflow, being very intentional in the way that you roll o- roll things out and pressure test them and get feedback before you go launching into something that immediately blows back at you- Mm-hmm when it doesn't work.
• 35:35
  Kyle Rodino: I think the other thing during that time that sha- uh, shaped me a lot, so UNC had this really unique program as a hospital at this time.
• 35:41
  Kyle Rodino: It was called the Lab Ambassador Program.
• 35:44
  Kyle Rodino: Basically what they did is they took technologists and they linked them up to high user units.
• 35:52
  Kyle Rodino: Mm-hmm.
• 35:52
  Kyle Rodino: So depending on what lab you were in, that means different things, right?
• 35:55
  Kyle Rodino: But for a microbiology lab, that was like the emergency department, some of the ICUs.
• 36:02
  Kyle Rodino: Um, and it was the, the lab tech's job to go to those units, basically just walk, walk around and proactively seek out questions.
• 36:18
  Kyle Rodino: So I would go to the ED, I'd stop by the charge nurse area.
• 36:24
  Kyle Rodino: There's like a little- You know, space where some of the residents, the interns, the fellows, the attendings, whoever, are all hanging out, and you just introduce yourself and, you know, they eventually get to know who you are and that you come around every so often.
• 36:36
  Kyle Rodino: But then you, the job was really like, what are you struggling with from a micro lab standpoint?
• 36:43
  Kyle Rodino: What's not working?
• 36:44
  Kyle Rodino: What don't you understand?
• 36:46
  Kyle Rodino: Is there something that I could clarify, sort of things.
• 36:48
  Kyle Rodino: And the, the job was less about giving immediate answers and more about listening and eliciting feedback- Mm-hmm and then bringing that back to talk about.
• 36:57
  Kyle Rodino: It led to some changes in workflows and testing updates in what we did, but it also just led to, I think, a much smoother channel of communication where, like, you realize most of the problems are products of themselves, and there isn't really a problem.
• 37:15
  Kyle Rodino: It's mostly one, one party doesn't understand one thing.
• 37:19
  Kyle Rodino: The other party can't understand why the other party doesn't understand the one thing, and then they get in a fight with each other about something that has nothing to do with the actual issue.
• 37:29
  Kyle Rodino: That, that I say was a, what I would say is a pretty, um, good formative experience for someone who wants to be a lab director.
• 37:37
  Duane Newton: Hmm.
• 37:39
  Duane Newton: We, um, we stole that from UNC and im- and implemented it at Michigan.
• 37:46
  Duane Newton: And I think, um, if I remember, I had some...
• 37:51
  Duane Newton: I had the opportunity to interact with the lab, um, the UNC lab on, uh, several occasions.
• 37:59
  Duane Newton: Melissa Jones?
• 38:01
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 38:02
  Duane Newton: Um, I believe she had a, a large role, leadership role within the laboratory in that.
• 38:12
  Duane Newton: Um, but we, all the things that you'd described, the reasons why, uh, and the impact that it has, and, uh, I think those clearly justified it, um, the value of it.
• 38:29
  Duane Newton: I think the other thing that I feel like it helped, um, as well is to put some perspective on w- um, for the technologists to understand w- how they fit into everything else that's going on.
• 38:48
  Duane Newton: Because it's really...
• 38:50
  Duane Newton: An- and one of the things that I worked a lot on is to help bring that perspective because we look, we're a very micro-centric universe.
• 39:00
  Kyle Rodino: Mm-hmm.
• 39:01
  Duane Newton: And to understand how, and, and, and even that micro is just one part or one piece of information that everyone is taking into consideration in how these, how a patient or a group of patients are being managed.
• 39:19
  Duane Newton: And, um- you know, we get in a kerfuffle about something and You know, to be able to appreciate that in the context of this patient, that's way down on the kerfuffle list relative to other things that are happening with them.
• 39:40
  Duane Newton: And so I think that helped.
• 39:43
  Duane Newton: You know, those are thi- concepts that I tr- you know, would try to reinforce when we're f- you know, having challenging cases.
• 39:51
  Duane Newton: But it provided, um, you know, some support.
• 39:57
  Duane Newton: Their experiences and having the conversations with people directly, and then coming back to the lab and, you know, kind of reinforcing that, I think, um, went a long way to hel- helping people understand how we fit into the bigger picture.
• 40:15
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 40:15
  Kyle Rodino: Those are definitely the things I learned as a technologist.
• 40:19
  Kyle Rodino: Melissa Jones was my boss for those years.
• 40:22
  Kyle Rodino: I still see her once a year when we're in Clearwater for PASCV and, and have, have dinner with her.
• 40:30
  Kyle Rodino: Um, there's another person who I can remember.
• 40:33
  Kyle Rodino: In- incredibly influential in my journey as a technologist and then wanting to be a director.
• 40:41
  Kyle Rodino: Taught me lots and lots of things about microbiology.
• 40:43
  Kyle Rodino: Also taught me lots of things about interacting in a laboratory.
• 40:47
  Kyle Rodino: I can remember when I was first in there as an undergraduate researcher.
• 40:52
  Kyle Rodino: I worked, like, in the afternoon.
• 40:53
  Kyle Rodino: Like, most of the lab was sort of finishing up by the time I was getting out of class and going in there.
• 40:59
  Kyle Rodino: And, uh, I had been doing, like, a whole bunch of subcultures r- for something, and I...
• 41:05
  Kyle Rodino: uh, all, all the, like, r- red bin trash bags, you know, were, like, more than three-quarters full when I got there that day.
• 41:11
  Kyle Rodino: So I, like, finished up my work, and I put my plates in one, and then they didn't all fit, so I put some in another, and they didn't all fit, so I put some in another, and they didn't all fit.
• 41:19
  Kyle Rodino: And the next day when I went in there, uh, all of the boxes of trash were over by the area that I worked.
• 41:26
  Kyle Rodino: And when I showed up, Melissa, uh, kindly showed me how to bag up, seal, and remove and then make new biohazard trash bags the next, for the next time.
• 41:38
  Duane Newton: This is how you take out the trash, Kyle.
• 41:41
  Kyle Rodino: Yes.
• 41:41
  Kyle Rodino: That was a very, uh, important lesson for me, and I I remember Melissa teaching me while I was there.
• 41:50
  Duane Newton: In a very gentle- and, and maybe genteel way.
• 41:57
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 41:57
  Duane Newton: She was sh- I remember her being very super, super smart, super kind- Mm-hmm um, person too.
• 42:06
  Duane Newton: Like, yeah.
• 42:07
  Duane Newton: That, that resonates.
• 42:10
  Duane Newton: So the, the path out of, you know, from the bench to grad school was to where and fellowship and that- Was that a pretty, pretty easy jumps?
• 42:23
  Duane Newton: I mean, it seems like, okay, you've got this, I know what I need to do, and so it's just like knock it out.
• 42:31
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 42:31
  Kyle Rodino: Y- yes and no.
• 42:33
  Kyle Rodino: Okay.
• 42:33
  Kyle Rodino: So not, not direct again.
• 42:34
  Kyle Rodino: I actually applied to graduate school through two cycles.
• 42:37
  Kyle Rodino: I did not get into or chose not to go to the places the first go around.
• 42:43
  Kyle Rodino: Again, I had a- Average undergraduate career.
• 42:47
  Kyle Rodino: A pretty good, uh, career in my MLS program.
• 42:50
  Kyle Rodino: I had a lot of interesting direct clinical and translational research experience, but that's not at the top priority of a lot of academic microbiology graduate schools, so I...
• 43:04
  Kyle Rodino: Um, but I ended up going to Virginia Commonwealth University School of Medicine in Richmond.
• 43:10
  Kyle Rodino: Um, I joined the laboratory of Dr.
• 43:13
  Kyle Rodino: Jason Carlion when I was there.
• 43:15
  Kyle Rodino: Um, I would say, so the transition was really easy.
• 43:20
  Kyle Rodino: I went from, you know, at that, that point I had been up working, like, the regular bacteriology sort of schedule, so, you know, early starts, uh, full days.
• 43:32
  Kyle Rodino: So going from a, a working environment where you're in the lab by 7:30 and, like, going to graduate school was a great transition for me.
• 43:42
  Kyle Rodino: I was up.
• 43:43
  Kyle Rodino: I was at my classes.
• 43:44
  Kyle Rodino: I was working really hard.
• 43:46
  Kyle Rodino: It was, it was the right choice for me.
• 43:48
  Kyle Rodino: It takes a little bit of time to work and then go back to school.
• 43:52
  Kyle Rodino: So I...
• 43:52
  Kyle Rodino: And I left a well-paying job to go be a stipended grad student, right?
• 43:57
  Kyle Rodino: So I treated it like my full-time job, and that really helped me during graduate school.
• 44:05
  Kyle Rodino: The other thing, as you mentioned, like, the plan is now very clear.
• 44:09
  Kyle Rodino: I'm going here.
• 44:10
  Kyle Rodino: I'm doing this to get the next step, to get the next step.
• 44:15
  Kyle Rodino: I had those conversations, uh, early and open with the people that I was going to potentially join their labs.
• 44:24
  Kyle Rodino: And I remember Jason basically saying, um, you know, the level of productivity and the work ethic expected here is really high.
• 44:34
  Kyle Rodino: Um, and so as long as you're doing your part, everything else you wanna do is total- is, like, basically up to you.
• 44:42
  Kyle Rodino: If you...
• 44:43
  Kyle Rodino: 'Cause I had said, you know, I wanna stay connected to infectious diseases while I'm here.
• 44:47
  Kyle Rodino: I wanna go to whatever their version of grand rounds or management conference or, is.
• 44:52
  Kyle Rodino: I probably wanna stay, get connected with the VCU clinical micro lab.
• 44:57
  Kyle Rodino: It was Chris Doern was just coming into his role at the time.
• 45:00
  Kyle Rodino: I probably wanna do a little bit with, with him.
• 45:03
  Kyle Rodino: Um, you know, I'm going to be very focused at the end of my time on these fellowship applications and interviews and what, I'm, I'm gonna need some flexibility in that.
• 45:13
  Kyle Rodino: So a- and he gave me, you know, the assurance of as long as I, again, like, I did my part, all those other opportunities were fair game.
• 45:24
  Kyle Rodino: And that it was basically just came down to could I manage all of the things I wanted to do.
• 45:32
  Kyle Rodino: Um- And, and he told me basically no one from his laboratory had ever gone through some type of a path like that, so he couldn't help me in the way maybe his connections to great post-doc laboratories could help other people, but that he'd put the same level of backing and effort and support behind me in those things.
• 45:53
  Kyle Rodino: So that was great.
• 45:55
  Kyle Rodino: That was like the green light to if...
• 45:58
  Kyle Rodino: And my goal in graduate school, knowing that I wanted to go to a clinical fellowship and then be a lab director, was I wanna go to a lab that can, um, help me fill my toolbox as much as possible while I'm there, knowing that I'll probably never do a Western blot again in my life.
• 46:18
  Kyle Rodino: But the challenge of learning a variety of new techniques, um, figuring them out on your own, troubleshooting them, the scientific process part of why, you know, as, you know, a CPEP director now, why I look for really good scientists.
• 46:35
  Kyle Rodino: I knew I wanted to, to fill that part, and I felt that that lab could give me the most opportunity at exposure to new things and autonomy in my science and challenging projects and interesting, you know, organisms.
• 46:53
  Kyle Rodino: So it was a really exciting time.
• 46:54
  Kyle Rodino: I, I loved my grad school years even though all of that academic work, I knew I would never package it into a portfolio to go build my own research lab
• 47:08
  Duane Newton: That, um, how did that make you feel?
• 47:14
  Duane Newton: Like, did it matter To you that that was like four or five years of stuff that It, I could, I could imagine that feelings of what, you know, every once in a while like,"Why the hell am I doing this?
• 47:36
  Duane Newton: Why do I..." You know, that it, that would pop up.
• 47:39
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 47:39
  Duane Newton: Um, that's, you know, one question.
• 47:41
  Duane Newton: I think the other question too is in that space of like having, having that independence that, you know, being a PhD student gives you.
• 47:54
  Duane Newton: Like you have, you're working under, you have expectations that are being set and, you know, y- you, you guys outline an approach to take and then, okay, go do it.
• 48:10
  Duane Newton: And make sure you let me know if you run into any problems.
• 48:15
  Duane Newton: And, um, you know, but it's kind of like you're, you're given, you're given the keys to the car and go drive and, um, you're gonna get flat tires and you're gonna get, you know, you're not-- you're gonna forget to change the oil.
• 48:34
  Duane Newton: And, you know, so And you don't have, um, necessarily in the context of that program role models for the things that you are aspiring to do.
• 48:51
  Duane Newton: So it's a kind of a multilayered complex question.
• 48:55
  Duane Newton: But, you know, I'm doing stuff that I know is getting me going, but I also, you know, like, I've gotta figure all this stu- I'm, I'm, I'm figuring all of this stuff out on my own.
• 49:08
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 49:09
  Kyle Rodino: I mean, I think, like, you can definitely imagine that you have this five-year sort of trajectory in front of you on day one, and you know the whole thing is just a means to an end.
• 49:20
  Kyle Rodino: Like, really to do what I wanna do, all I need is my degree, and the content in between can s- I guess in that way could, could feel irrelevant to a lot'cause it really, you know, it, it, it wasn't gonna be what I built my career on.
• 49:39
  Kyle Rodino: That's true.
• 49:41
  Kyle Rodino: I would say, though, that again, maybe the break gave me the time f- to ma- mature a little bit.
• 49:48
  Kyle Rodino: I, I really, um, I was really thankful for the opportunity.
• 49:54
  Kyle Rodino: Like, I had finally sort of s- crystallized what I wanted to do.
• 49:59
  Kyle Rodino: I knew that being really successful in my graduate school career was still absolutely necessary for the next thing.
• 50:08
  Kyle Rodino: I had been connected to the UNC fellowship.
• 50:12
  Kyle Rodino: I knew the caliber of people that they were accepting into their program.
• 50:18
  Kyle Rodino: I had a little bit of a look at what it took to get into the fellowship, and I could tell you what I, how I sort of looked at it was, um, I've been given this opportunity to go to graduate school with the intention that the only thing I wanna do with it is this fellowship.
• 50:38
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 50:39
  Kyle Rodino: There's very few of them.
• 50:41
  Kyle Rodino: I can leave no stone unturned and no regret during this five years where I s- when I don't get into fellowship and say,"I wish I would've done better at something."
• 50:54
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 50:55
  Kyle Rodino: I went into that grad school program with the idea of I will look back and there will be nothing that I could not have done or that I, that I should have done.
• 51:09
  Kyle Rodino: That would allow me to fail at that, at getting into a fellowship.
• 51:12
  Kyle Rodino: So, n- so I, I...
• 51:16
  Kyle Rodino: And the other great thing I think about that is I chose the right lab.
• 51:21
  Kyle Rodino: I got these, I got put on the Orientia tsutsugamushi, uh, team, which is a, a, a m- a mite born pathogen of Southeast Asia that's sort of like a Rickettsia for people who d- don't know what that is.
• 51:35
  Kyle Rodino: Uh, but it was, it was new and fresh and recently funded in the lab.
• 51:39
  Kyle Rodino: There was a lot of prelim data that could fill 25 different projects.
• 51:45
  Kyle Rodino: To be given the keys to the car and a bunch of really promising leads, and the choice of which one you wanted to work on, I mean, it was just really fun.
• 51:56
  Kyle Rodino: It, it, it was a lot of work.
• 51:58
  Kyle Rodino: You- you're right, there were a lot of flat tires and a lot of failures, but as a whole and the way it felt across the trajectory is that actually most of the stuff we thought of and tried and worked on did succeed'cause it was, you know, well backed from the prelim data and we had a really good idea of where to go with some of the things.
• 52:18
  Kyle Rodino: It also felt really exciting to explore ideas of your own and see where they went, and some of them stuck, so that was great, too.
• 52:27
  Kyle Rodino: Um, but yeah.
• 52:30
  Kyle Rodino: I think I f- I, I definitely get what you're saying where, like, I got there and I was like,"Okay, I just wanna get to the next step." Like, I got all this stuff in front of me that I, some of it I can't really control that I have to go through to get there.
• 52:43
  Kyle Rodino: But I would say that I, like, largely lost track of time in that space in my life.
• 52:48
  Kyle Rodino: Like, I liked what I did.
• 52:51
  Kyle Rodino: It was rapidly progressing.
• 52:54
  Kyle Rodino: There were lots of things that I could do to better my application and get ready for the fellowship process.
• 53:01
  Kyle Rodino: It was fun.
• 53:02
  Kyle Rodino: You know, my wife and I having our first place really in Richmond and some, some friends there.
• 53:07
  Kyle Rodino: It was just a great time in, in our lives, and I wasn't in a huge rush in the end to get it sort of over with, but it all sort of worked together in that sense.
• 53:19
  Duane Newton: H- how did you and your wife meet?
• 53:22
  Kyle Rodino: Uh, we met at her friend's 21st birthday at UNC.
• 53:26
  Kyle Rodino: I've known her for a v- a very long time now.
• 53:32
  Duane Newton: And she followed you to...
• 53:34
  Duane Newton: Were you, when, when did you get married?
• 53:36
  Kyle Rodino: We got married when we, in grad school, in that first year.
• 53:40
  Kyle Rodino: That was the other thing.
• 53:40
  Kyle Rodino: I told them I was gonna do a, uh, I had a career aspiration that had nothing to do with academia.
• 53:45
  Kyle Rodino: But, and I also told them that my wedding was planned for that summer and I was gonna take like three weeks off.
• 53:50
  Kyle Rodino: Those were the two things of
• 53:52
  Duane Newton: j-
• 53:52
  Kyle Rodino: of joining the lab.
• 53:53
  Kyle Rodino: So thank- thankfully, he, he was accommodating of both of them.
• 54:01
  Duane Newton: Where Is there anyone that you can look at in your, in your life that you, was a model for this kind of drive and grit and focus?
• 54:20
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 54:22
  Kyle Rodino: Absolutely.
• 54:22
  Kyle Rodino: I think, uh, I mentioned my parents were not science-y people, but I probably learned the most about being a scientist from them.
• 54:34
  Kyle Rodino: I would say through everything, and I've been thinking a lot about this now too as I like advise other people and, and mentor folks and, but, but through that stretch, there's, there's no replacement for hard work.
• 54:52
  Kyle Rodino: Uh, you may get lucky and have opportunities that appear to fall into your lap along the way, and there might be key people that you meet that certainly springboard your ability to get to the places where you want to be, but it still doesn't replace working hard.
• 55:13
  Kyle Rodino: A lot of the opportunities I feel like I've gotten and the things that I, that I see people get now, they may not realize are not accidental pieces of luck opportunities.
• 55:26
  Kyle Rodino: They're products of the hard work that goes unseen by them that other people see, and they, it, it goes together.
• 55:33
  Kyle Rodino: So my parents worked, you know, they grew up in, um, in, in families in like a, you know, small communities kind of right around where I lived my entire childhood.
• 55:45
  Kyle Rodino: They didn't necessarily have a lot when they grew up.
• 55:48
  Kyle Rodino: They're, they're perfect examples of people creating the life and that they want to have and to support their ch- their, their child and their family in the way that they want to do.
• 55:57
  Kyle Rodino: They're in- incredibly, incredibly hard workers and, you know, honest, uh, uh, people that, that, that got everything that they have now from their personal drive and, and their ability to buckle down and, and do, and do that.
• 56:18
  Kyle Rodino: So I would say my, uh, m- m-...
• 56:22
  Kyle Rodino: my model and hero in that space is not a science person.
• 56:26
  Kyle Rodino: It's from seeing people do that in other arenas and then applying it to that.
• 56:33
  Duane Newton: I, um A really I admire it a ton.
• 56:45
  Duane Newton: Like, it's really, really cool to hear, um, hear you talk about it and to feel that, you know, kind of the emotion behind it.
• 56:55
  Duane Newton: Um, the I don't think I could have, I could have gotten to where I am without similar attributes, but I've never really felt that I was that way.
• 57:14
  Duane Newton: You know?
• 57:14
  Duane Newton: I never felt like I was focused and driven and had that kind of clarity and, um And it's not until recently that you know, I've come to appreciate and, you know, leverage that work in, um How You know, that l-- what appears as luck, you, you said it's because of, it's because of hard work that you get those opportunities, and you're putting yourself-- What I feel like is you're putting yourself in a much gr- better position to You're, you're moving out and away from this little spot, and so your world is so much bigger.
• 58:15
  Duane Newton: You know, the world of opportunities that you could take advantage of expands because you're working hard, you're accomplishing these things, you're getting these experiences, you're expanding your repertoire personally and professionally, and so things kind of hit at that.
• 58:35
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 58:39
  Duane Newton: So it, that, that has become I've had more awareness around that, that, you know, that I feel like figuring out how to get out of my comfort zone and put myself in a position where I, I am pushing those boundaries and finding, you know, w- really where, you know, that my limits are really actually a lot further out than what I thought they were.
• 59:06
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 59:06
  Kyle Rodino: I mean, there's some quote about you can create your own luck, right?
• 59:12
  Kyle Rodino: I think, I think hard work is a way to create your own luck.
• 59:16
  Kyle Rodino: I would say expanding your network in a genuine way, and again, I think that's mostly related to work ethic, is, is really, really helpful.
• 59:27
  Kyle Rodino: I think if you do it in a superficial way and it's not, y- you know, genuine and a real connection impactful that those opportunities because of that may not materialize.
• 59:38
  Kyle Rodino: But I think if you're fully invested in what you're doing and the path you're trying to take, that those things, they fall into place.
• 59:49
  Kyle Rodino: We can call that luck, but I think it's, it's really just a product of hard work
• 59:57
  Duane Newton: And having your head up and eyes open.
• 1:00:00
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 1:00:00
  Duane Newton: Sure.
• 1:00:00
  Duane Newton: And, and I would also say, you know, from a, from a mushy side, you having your heart open and, and being willing to receive, uh, being in that I'm open and looking and receptive- Mm-hmm to what's out there.
• 1:00:19
  Kyle Rodino: Totally.
• 1:00:20
  Duane Newton: And that kind of why not?
• 1:00:24
  Duane Newton: Sure.
• 1:00:25
  Duane Newton: Let's give it a try.
• 1:00:26
  Duane Newton: Let's see what happens.
• 1:00:31
  Duane Newton: What hap- how do you, like There are people that aren't like that.
• 1:00:38
  Duane Newton: And, and I'm sure, like, I've worked with them and y- you know, you see them.
• 1:00:45
  Duane Newton: They don't have that same kind of push How do, how do you, how do you manage that?
• 1:00:56
  Duane Newton: How do you, how do you respond to that?
• 1:00:59
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 1:01:00
  Kyle Rodino: Um, this is another thing that I would say I learned a lot from Melissa Jones and I learned a lot from my time as a technologist in this am- ambassador role.
• 1:01:12
  Kyle Rodino: I- and a thing that I try to work on a lot here is you don't know what motivates everybody.
• 1:01:20
  Kyle Rodino: I was motivated by all of those things I saw that was exciting in the director level role, of the patient impact and the direct communication and the new technology.
• 1:01:31
  Kyle Rodino: I was motivated by the lab work and the product and every- Some people are not motivated by, uh, that and they don't, they have no interest in hearing about all this new technology and how it's great and the advance it's gonna make.
• 1:01:45
  Kyle Rodino: They're motivated by some personal aspect of the work that they do.
• 1:01:52
  Kyle Rodino: They're motivated by a feeling of the community and helping people.
• 1:01:59
  Kyle Rodino: They're motivated simply by the complexity of the culture workup or, or the, and the, like, pure science part of it.
• 1:02:09
  Kyle Rodino: Sometimes they're motivated by their paycheck.
• 1:02:11
  Kyle Rodino: Some people work in this field because they like it and it affords them the life that they wanna have outside of the laboratory.
• 1:02:21
  Kyle Rodino: And I learned early that all of those things to me are equal.
• 1:02:26
  Kyle Rodino: I would like to know what motivates you so I can think of that when I'm asking something unique or special outside of the procedure and I, I want...
• 1:02:39
  Kyle Rodino: Or we have a project going on and I'm thinking about how it's gonna impact everybody and, uh, or there's some things where it's gonna necessitate some overtime by the way that it's gonna work because of some circumstance, and I know that there are some people that are not motivated by overtime.
• 1:02:54
  Kyle Rodino: And they, the most important thing to them is when they clock out and they go pick up their kid and they go to their family.
• 1:03:01
  Kyle Rodino: This job allows them to have some schedule that supports that.
• 1:03:06
  Kyle Rodino: So I, when I think about, you know, if you're not motivated in a particular way and you're a little bit more head down in the work, very focused, and not interested in the extra pieces because whatever the...
• 1:03:22
  Kyle Rodino: I think that's totally fine.
• 1:03:25
  Kyle Rodino: Um, and I, so I think, like, what ultimately matters to me in this role now, and I think what I also thought about during grad school.
• 1:03:33
  Kyle Rodino: During grad school, right, I wanted a laboratory that was really productive.
• 1:03:35
  Kyle Rodino: And when I was working really hard, they were working really hard.
• 1:03:38
  Kyle Rodino: And so one, one grant would come through and the rest of the lab would benefit and all that.
• 1:03:42
  Kyle Rodino: I didn't really care what motivated them to do that.
• 1:03:48
  Kyle Rodino: I cared that they were producing good science, and we were collectively succeeding.
• 1:03:54
  Kyle Rodino: And we were going to get the next something because we all, we were all pushing and on our projects in different, but for different reasons probably.
• 1:04:04
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 1:04:05
  Kyle Rodino: And, and now I care that people take their, that they understand the gravity of their work, and that they understand that patients benefit and physicians make decisions.
• 1:04:17
  Kyle Rodino: And how well we do our work and how efficiently we do our work and, and how consistently we do our work is the answer to all of those things.
• 1:04:29
  Kyle Rodino: But what motivates you to produce that really high quality product can be whatever it is for you
• 1:04:39
  Duane Newton: I love that answer.
• 1:04:41
  Duane Newton: And, um, yeah, as soon as I asked the question and you started talking, it reminded me of experiences that I've had as a dad with my kids.
• 1:04:59
  Duane Newton: And this, um What's the right word?
• 1:05:07
  Duane Newton: I wanted to say disconnection.
• 1:05:09
  Duane Newton: Um, disali- misalignment or a diff- different, different alignment in, um...
• 1:05:17
  Duane Newton: I guess it's misalignment in, you know, perspectives and approaches and motivations.
• 1:05:24
  Duane Newton: And I, I had a, you know, a huge aha moment with my daughter when she was in high school in realizing the things that I was motivated by are not the things that she was motivated by.
• 1:05:43
  Duane Newton: And the things actually that she was motivated by worked really well for her and, um, she was really good at.
• 1:05:59
  Duane Newton: And I should shut the hell up you know, and let her, like, support the path in the way that she wants to do, you know, rather than try to force my, my motivations or perspectives or directives.
• 1:06:18
  Duane Newton: And, you know, it was difficult, um You know, the, the, the aha moment was there, but the actual execution with both her and her brother, n- there's like four and a half years apart, and I was involved in, um, more so with my son but some with my daughter as a coach and, and helper or whatever in the different activities.
• 1:06:45
  Duane Newton: But I was, I was very integrated into my son's athletics as a hockey player and coaching.
• 1:06:52
  Duane Newton: And, you know, for all that I thought I learned with my daughter, I d- you know, did the same stupid shit with him and, uh, and had to r- had to realize, you know, what...
• 1:07:05
  Duane Newton: relearn or recognize, you know, a different set of motivations for him than for her and for me.
• 1:07:13
  Duane Newton: And, you know, so I think that it applies just, you know, to go back to what we were talking about before is we have life.
• 1:07:22
  Duane Newton: We don't have work and home and, you know, we have life.
• 1:07:26
  Duane Newton: And the approach that we're taking and things that are impacting us and influence us and that we value, we ap- you know, I don't think we have a different set of values.
• 1:07:37
  Duane Newton: We have the same set of core values, and we apply them in all the situations that we're in.
• 1:07:44
  Duane Newton: And I think, you know, that, that's part of what I, in my, my new role where I am, is applying those kinds of tool-- assessment tools and having those kinds of conversations with people to really understand, you know, what their motivations are, what their values are, how they communicate, um, you know, how they're showing up.
• 1:08:11
  Duane Newton: And- Seeing and helping them understand the value of gaining that appreciation and understanding about each other.
• 1:08:25
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 1:08:26
  Duane Newton: Them- themselves and each other, and that- that's the kind of, um, those are the kinds of things that I'm very strong proponent of.
• 1:08:35
  Duane Newton: And, um, because I think those, you know, the person who's motivated by the paycheck, who's motivated by the community building, the altruism, the science, there's sometimes where those motivations conflict with each other.
• 1:08:53
  Kyle Rodino: Mm-hmm.
• 1:08:59
  Duane Newton: And I, I think, you know, the...
• 1:09:04
  Duane Newton: By having these kinds of conversations, I hope that people start to understand and recognize and see that there are other perspectives that all kind of fit as pieces of this big puzzle together, uh, and that it's okay even if it's different.
• 1:09:20
  Duane Newton: It's okay, and it's necessary and important, as you, as you articulated very well.
• 1:09:25
  Duane Newton: So I, y- I'm hearing you...
• 1:09:28
  Duane Newton: I was hearing you say this stuff back, and I, and I'm just, like, I'm having these flashbacks to these very pointed conversations with each of my kids in different times of my life about- I'm
• 1:09:43
  Kyle Rodino: sure
• 1:09:44
  Duane Newton: where I'm get- I'm on the receiving end of it.
• 1:09:46
  Duane Newton: You know?
• 1:09:46
  Duane Newton: It's, like, I'm getting it back,
• 1:09:49
  Kyle Rodino: so.
• 1:09:49
  Kyle Rodino: I'm, I'm sure that's in my future.
• 1:09:51
  Kyle Rodino: I can already...
• 1:09:53
  Kyle Rodino: I already get called out by my seven-year-old when I'm motivated by something, and he's like,"You should just do it for enjoy- like, because you enjoy it." Uh, yeah.
• 1:10:07
  Kyle Rodino: That's in my future, for sure.
• 1:10:09
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 1:10:11
  Duane Newton: So the, um I want to get to-- We're, we're touching on a, a lot of these themes that I think are, are-- revolve around the approach that you take in, in your current role and as a leader, um, the things that are important to you, how, you know, what you try to articulate.
• 1:10:40
  Duane Newton: You know, I want to give you a chance to kind of finish the rest of the story on, on how you, how you got there.
• 1:10:46
  Duane Newton: But, you know, with an eye towards, again, you know, the people, the situations, the experiences that helped you continue to shape that'Cause it's kind of like a big piece of clay that's getting molded, you know, and some things get thr- slapped on and some things get carved off.
• 1:11:07
  Duane Newton: And, um, you know, through, through your graduate program and your, and your fellowship, you know, into your, into your, um, into your current role, you know, what, where are those...
• 1:11:23
  Duane Newton: how is this contin- how is this story continuing to build for you?
• 1:11:29
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 1:11:29
  Kyle Rodino: You know, a- after graduate school, I was in- incredibly lucky to do my fellowship at Mayo Clinic.
• 1:11:38
  Kyle Rodino: I would say at the point where I was with my experience in a l- clinical lab already and then the portfolio I had built research-wise, it was the perfect next step for me.
• 1:11:48
  Kyle Rodino: Uh, uh, my, my fellowship time, I would say, like the, the really, um, what I needed out of my fellowship was director examples.
• 1:12:00
  Kyle Rodino: I, I gained a lot of knowledge, uh, from a, from a medical microbiology content and, you know, uh, foundational pieces while I was a fellow.
• 1:12:09
  Kyle Rodino: But what I was really ready for was to learn how to be a director, and it was most helpful for me to see seven people direct their individual laboratories through their own style and experience and expertise, and then file away examples of those things and think about, well, I wanna take this piece and I wanna take that sc- that piece, as you said, like, uh, in molding clay.
• 1:12:38
  Kyle Rodino: I grabbed little pieces of all of those examples and said that, you know, this is, this is how I wanna handle that scenario going forward.
• 1:12:46
  Kyle Rodino: Here's a really good example of building culture within a laboratory that needs it in this particular moment.
• 1:12:52
  Kyle Rodino: Here's a great example of working with a challenging consult where they don't wanna hear your recommendation or they're, um...
• 1:13:01
  Kyle Rodino: you know, the lab is trying to get them to understand why we, we do things in a particular way and it's not working.
• 1:13:07
  Kyle Rodino: Here's how I wanna handle that.
• 1:13:09
  Kyle Rodino: Um, so that directorship experience part at Mayo Clinic, in addition to seeing everything under the sun at a international reference laboratory with extreme volume and, you know, uh, cutting edge technology, all of those other things that you think of there.
• 1:13:31
  Kyle Rodino: But the piece that was most important to my fellowship time and adding to what I already had in place was the witnessing people doing their job at a really, really high level.
• 1:13:43
  Kyle Rodino: Um, and then, you know, taking that all here and trying to figure out how, what do I wanna build my portfolio on?
• 1:13:55
  Kyle Rodino: What do I wanna build my foundation of how I, how I make decisions as a director, the, um, role I want to generally play for the laboratory.
• 1:14:09
  Kyle Rodino: It's all crafted out of all of these different experiences over all these different sort of meandering ways I took through, through getting here.
• 1:14:19
  Kyle Rodino: It's a, it, it, it, it's a sum of all of those parts.
• 1:14:25
  Duane Newton: What is the thread that you feel like In that, in Up to this point in your career, like the thread that was, um, being woven through the things that you were doing was getting you to be to this point.
• 1:14:42
  Kyle Rodino: Mm-hmm.
• 1:14:44
  Duane Newton: And, um, I think, uh, especially in acade- primarily, I guess, at an academic institution, um We're challenged with having a story that, um, shows our unique experiences and skill sets and contributions to science and medicine and the institution.
• 1:15:16
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 1:15:17
  Duane Newton: Um, and I, I feel like in a field like, um, ours where we have-- our responsibility is to be, you know, to pro- perform at a high level everywhere and have a knowledge base across the spectrum of disciplines, um People, a, a good friend of mine, I won't divulge a name to protect the innocent, but someone has described, more than one person has described what we do as jack of all trades, master of none, and say it in kind of a derogatory, self-deprecate, you know, self-derogatory, putting themselves down.
• 1:16:06
  Duane Newton: I, I don't have an expertise.
• 1:16:09
  Duane Newton: It's like that is, like, the greatest set of skills and shows exactly why we are in these roles.
• 1:16:21
  Duane Newton: And at the same time, there's a thread of a story that needs to be told if you're in an academic environment.
• 1:16:29
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 1:16:29
  Duane Newton: Um, how have you started to weave that tapestry of your story?
• 1:16:40
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 1:16:41
  Kyle Rodino: It, uh, in, in an academic medical center, in a faculty promotion-led thing, you have to, you have to have that.
• 1:16:47
  Kyle Rodino: Um, but you can be very clever in the way you build it.
• 1:16:52
  Kyle Rodino: My academic area of focus or area of concentration, as we call it, is optimizing infectious disease diagnostics, and then it's my job to explain how I tether all my activities to that.
• 1:17:09
  Kyle Rodino: I would say my thread, Duane, for all the years is, like, making practical decisions in the face of chaos I like to do things because they make sense.
• 1:17:23
  Kyle Rodino: I like to do things because it keeps the patient and the ultimate goal in mind.
• 1:17:31
  Kyle Rodino: I don't think that you need to build an academic career on flashy things.
• 1:17:37
  Kyle Rodino: I think you can build quite a good academic career and promotional packet on, on pretty mundane things.
• 1:17:46
  Kyle Rodino: On very practical things.
• 1:17:49
  Kyle Rodino: And the jack-of-all-trades part is why I left my area of concentration so vague.
• 1:17:57
  Kyle Rodino: So I'll give you a few examples.
• 1:17:59
  Kyle Rodino: Over the, you know, I've been at Penn for six years.
• 1:18:02
  Kyle Rodino: I've recently gone through the promotion process.
• 1:18:05
  Kyle Rodino: And you can tether a lot of stuff to those things, and you can have a l- a lot of areas of interest.
• 1:18:10
  Kyle Rodino: So, um, you know, chronologically, I guess, had a lot of...
• 1:18:15
  Kyle Rodino: There's a lot of things that you could work on during COVID, a lot of things that were very distracting, a lot of things where there was not a clear answer, and I made what I would say were practical decisions during that time.
• 1:18:29
  Kyle Rodino: I set up a, you know, sequencing program with colleagues here at Penn that really served some important, some things that we thought we needed to do in the region and that we didn't see happening, and I would say we did them, we did it because we thought it was the right thing to do at that time.
• 1:18:46
  Kyle Rodino: I did not in any way outline all of the things we would produce and all of the things that would come of it when I submitted the justification packet to my vice chair when I was asking for a little money to get that off the ground.
• 1:19:01
  Kyle Rodino: But we, but we did it because at that time it was, like, the right thing to do, and I would say we made some practical decisions on what things we wanted to focus on in that time I've recently done some work on, uh, clinical decision support and proper ordering and stewardship of tests.
• 1:19:20
  Kyle Rodino: And would I have told you five years ago that that was gonna be a focal point of my career for some period of time?
• 1:19:27
  Kyle Rodino: No.
• 1:19:28
  Kyle Rodino: But there was a need for a solution to a problem that we had, and there were motivated people at, in a committee to work on it and, you know, be- because of that shared interest, it was successful.
• 1:19:43
  Kyle Rodino: But a- again, it was practical.
• 1:19:44
  Kyle Rodino: I've worked on-- I have a small development team that I'm very, very proud of here, and we've built 40-plus or so tests and enhancements to existing things over the last four and a half, five years since I've been here.
• 1:20:01
  Kyle Rodino: Y- you know, is innovation a thing, uh, that is a niche interest of mine and I wanted to do?
• 1:20:05
  Kyle Rodino: Yes.
• 1:20:05
  Kyle Rodino: But also, does it tether, uh, to optimizing diagnostics across the system?
• 1:20:10
  Kyle Rodino: Yes.
• 1:20:11
  Kyle Rodino: And do I pick areas of focus and development because I think they're of high need, attainable, sustainable within the system, and practical solutions?
• 1:20:23
  Kyle Rodino: Yep.
• 1:20:24
  Kyle Rodino: During, you know, during the time of FDA attempted regulation of LDTs, that was a main focus of my, my efforts.
• 1:20:32
  Kyle Rodino: And again, I think there are practical solutions to test regulation and oversight of laboratories that don't need big, giant, cumbersome oversight things.
• 1:20:42
  Kyle Rodino: So I think that you can build a really good academic portfolio and a, and areas of expertise that ultimately do tie to one thing.
• 1:20:54
  Kyle Rodino: It's, it's how you weave those things together
• 1:21:01
  Duane Newton: Interesting that, um I don't remember exactly how I told the story from, to get promoted from assistant to associate.
• 1:21:17
  Duane Newton: Um, I think, you know, I think it was very vague and very, um I- in some ways just kind of checking the boxes of the things, you know, like these many papers and these many activities and professional organizations at a, you know, at least at a regional level and, you know, service within the organiz- within the institution and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 1:21:47
  Duane Newton: And I think the, um, the step from associate to full was a, was a much higher step.
• 1:21:58
  Kyle Rodino: Mm-hmm.
• 1:21:58
  Duane Newton: And the interesting thing was I didn't-- I don't think I ever-- I didn't have this, um, a title like you described around any of the things that I was doing.
• 1:22:15
  Duane Newton: But I think it really, you know, kind of similarly, um, phrased was more about what's the clinical impact of the, of the choices that we're making, and how do we show the value of that work, you know?
• 1:22:32
  Duane Newton: So I think that was always a part of it, and this was at a time when, you know, we were first maybe even before we were doing any real outcome studies.
• 1:22:41
  Duane Newton: And, um, the timing was such that we, you know, this is when MALDI was coming out, and we had a really excellent Still at U of M have a very excellent infectious disease pharmacy group.
• 1:22:58
  Duane Newton: And it was like, wouldn't it be great to do this before and after study and show how having these rapid results have an impact on patients?
• 1:23:13
  Duane Newton: Yeah, that sounds awesome.
• 1:23:14
  Duane Newton: We can do that
• 1:23:16
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 1:23:16
  Kyle Rodino: And- Sounds pretty, like a practical thing to do, Duane
• 1:23:19
  Duane Newton: It, yeah, it is very practical.
• 1:23:23
  Duane Newton: And I think there were, you know, there were laboratory optimization things around it, but it's, okay, what is this?
• 1:23:33
  Duane Newton: What is the impact gonna be?
• 1:23:35
  Duane Newton: And that became the whole...
• 1:23:37
  Duane Newton: And there's like three or four papers that came out of different things, maybe, maybe two or three papers that came out of different things around that.
• 1:23:47
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 1:23:50
  Duane Newton: And that became my story.
• 1:23:54
  Duane Newton: And it was like, it was almost like serendipity, but it was,"Yeah, let's try.
• 1:24:02
  Duane Newton: Let's see." It's not easy You know, you gotta get a lot of people on board within the lab and outside of the lab, but It's so...
• 1:24:16
  Duane Newton: W- I think the, the message is that, that I have tried to articulate to people who are just starting out their career is that there are a variety of different ways that this manifests itself, and you never know what it's gonna be, and you don't have to know Because there's a way to tell the story,'cause everyone has one.
• 1:24:42
  Kyle Rodino: I think, yeah, you're, you're absolutely right in that I think, again, if we could just, like, come back to the hard work part.
• 1:24:54
  Kyle Rodino: If you f- if an opportunity presents itself, and you're all in, and you can build a team around you that, that can make the, the project successful, that's really what it's about.
• 1:25:08
  Kyle Rodino: Like, most of the academic pro- pr- promotion criteria for me are around my s- you know, success in teaching.
• 1:25:16
  Kyle Rodino: And again, I can tether a lot of the teaching to optimizing infectious disease diagnostics.
• 1:25:21
  Kyle Rodino: We talk a lot about appropriate test utilization and giving good advice on...
• 1:25:27
  Kyle Rodino: And it tethers to the performance of all the different tests we talk about, right?
• 1:25:31
  Kyle Rodino: So but you, as long as you're...
• 1:25:37
  Kyle Rodino: It, it might look like a, one of those cartoon tornado clouds where everything's spinning around and nothing's really in any sort of formation, or it doesn't look organized, but if it's all moving in the same direction, then I think that's success in this field.
• 1:25:53
  Kyle Rodino: Mm-hmm.
• 1:25:54
  Kyle Rodino: So you find a niche thing proving clinical value or utility of something.
• 1:26:02
  Kyle Rodino: No one else has really looked at it.
• 1:26:03
  Kyle Rodino: It doesn't have to be incredibly flashy, but it's new.
• 1:26:07
  Kyle Rodino: And if you really work hard at it and work at, then that, that becomes a, a, a big piece moving in the right, moving in the right direction.
• 1:26:16
  Kyle Rodino: And I think it, it really becomes, I think, in a, in a way- Um, recognizing the opportunities, uh, being actionable in that period of time where it's, where it's, it's appropriate to do so, and asking yourself, like, what, what, what will this opportunity do for me directly or, or indirectly if I, if I go down this path a little bit?
• 1:26:43
  Kyle Rodino: What other things could this opportunity provide me?
• 1:26:47
  Kyle Rodino: Mm-hmm.
• 1:26:47
  Kyle Rodino: So it...
• 1:26:48
  Kyle Rodino: And that's hard, I think, early on.
• 1:26:52
  Kyle Rodino: T- It's hard later, too.
• 1:26:55
  Kyle Rodino: But it's r- but it's even more anxiety producing early on, I think.
• 1:27:01
  Kyle Rodino: I think later you just know you have to struggle and battle with the decision.
• 1:27:05
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 1:27:05
  Kyle Rodino: Early you feel very uncertain and fearful and, and, like, you're going to make the wrong one.
• 1:27:11
  Kyle Rodino: And now I just think sometimes I miss opportunities.
• 1:27:13
  Kyle Rodino: I don't necessarily make the wrong ones.
• 1:27:15
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 1:27:17
  Duane Newton: So that kind of leads a little bit into how, the last question I have for you, which I've, I've asked in different ways to people, um, alr- you know, in each of these episodes is, uh, if you could go back to young Kyle and tell young Kyle something, not, you know, do this differently, but- Is there any advice that you would give a, a younger version of yourself?
• 1:27:51
  Kyle Rodino: Um Y- y- yeah.
• 1:27:56
  Kyle Rodino: I mean, I think I would tell the graduate student version of myself, um, uh, that just be- to be more confident in, in the idea that hard work will get you really far.
• 1:28:10
  Kyle Rodino: I did feel five years older than pretty much everybody that was starting, had different life experiences, was at a different phase of my life.
• 1:28:21
  Kyle Rodino: And, but, and I knew that this was, this was, like, kind of it for me.
• 1:28:29
  Kyle Rodino: I needed to succeed.
• 1:28:31
  Kyle Rodino: So I felt a lot of pressure in, in that capacity.
• 1:28:36
  Kyle Rodino: A lot of people helped me get that opportunity and be where I was.
• 1:28:41
  Kyle Rodino: And as I mentioned, I could not get to the end and not get a fellowship.
• 1:28:46
  Kyle Rodino: I, it was a- Mm-hmm 100% the only thing I wanted to do.
• 1:28:50
  Kyle Rodino: So I think I could tell that person 70 straight days in the lab is probably too many.
• 1:28:57
  Kyle Rodino: Like, one day off would be okay.
• 1:28:59
  Kyle Rodino: But, but the hard work is gonna pay off.
• 1:29:03
  Kyle Rodino: W- I don't want that person to slow down in, uh, in the long term.
• 1:29:08
  Kyle Rodino: I want that person to keep going, but I want them to know that it's gonna, that they're right, that the hard work will pay off.
• 1:29:15
  Kyle Rodino: Um, I think I should probably tell the person in, in undergrad to, like, focus a little bit more and get it- But, but if I tell that per- you know, the butterfly effect of that- Yeah will I not become a clinical microbiologist- Yeah then I will not have this job, and I will- Yeah be something else.
• 1:29:32
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 1:29:32
  Kyle Rodino: And that, so I don't wanna tell that person-
• 1:29:34
  Duane Newton: Yeah
• 1:29:34
  Kyle Rodino: that necessarily.
• 1:29:35
  Duane Newton: You needed to, you needed to have that.
• 1:29:37
  Duane Newton: I, I, I totally agree.
• 1:29:39
  Duane Newton: It's not like you would change anything.
• 1:29:41
  Duane Newton: It's like, give yourself a break, you know?
• 1:29:44
  Duane Newton: And I think that sort of be, um, be kinder to yourself i- is kind of a, a little bit of it.
• 1:29:57
  Duane Newton: Like, you're doing a g- you're doing the right thing.
• 1:30:01
  Kyle Rodino: Yeah.
• 1:30:02
  Duane Newton: That's what I'm hearing.
• 1:30:05
  Duane Newton: This is- Really awesome I, um, I appreciate you.
• 1:30:15
  Duane Newton: Uh, you've been, I think through v- a variety of things, you know, getting a chance to, um, first meeting you and getting a chance to know you and having you be involved in the, the different things that I've been doing, um, has been a tremendous joy and it really, like Unexpected but very much appreciated gift.
• 1:30:43
  Duane Newton: So thank you.
• 1:30:45
  Duane Newton: Thank you for your support and, uh, being here, and, um, you're a really cool dude, man.
• 1:30:56
  Kyle Rodino: Thank- you too, Duane.
• 1:30:57
  Kyle Rodino: I, I...
• 1:30:59
  Kyle Rodino: The, uh, the thanks is to you for creating and thinking of this type of community medical microbiologist lab director, uh, enhancement.
• 1:31:11
  Kyle Rodino: Uh, you know, these jobs, we have a very small community.
• 1:31:17
  Kyle Rodino: You- one would think that we would be extremely connected to each other all of the time.
• 1:31:21
  Kyle Rodino: And in our own little social niches, maybe we are.
• 1:31:26
  Kyle Rodino: We lean on each other a lot.
• 1:31:28
  Kyle Rodino: But it's also a very isolating pr- role, right?
• 1:31:33
  Kyle Rodino: There's one or two of you at most places.
• 1:31:37
  Kyle Rodino: Most places have one medical microbiologist.
• 1:31:40
  Kyle Rodino: And it's funny to me how, how often there's probably a few dozen of us thinking about the same challenge at the same time, all independent of each other.
• 1:31:52
  Kyle Rodino: Mm-hmm.
• 1:31:53
  Kyle Rodino: And then we do connect through ClinMicroNet or our own, our own networks, but this network of connecting to people a little bit more on a personal level, and then seeing them at scientific conferences and feeling more comfortable catching up with them and talking to them.
• 1:32:11
  Kyle Rodino: My network within this small community, which I thought, I thought my network was already pretty big, my network has grown so much more over the last couple years because of you that really thank you for, for creating a place where we could connect on a more than professional level, but be there for each other professionally now because we know each other personally
• 1:32:36
  Duane Newton: Um, you're welcome.
• 1:32:41
  Duane Newton: Uh, thanks.
• 1:32:42
  Duane Newton: That, uh, means a lot I thought I was gonna get through this episode without crying, but
• 1:32:51
  Kyle Rodino: I can't leave that with that.
• 1:32:54
  Duane Newton: Kyle, thanks.
• 1:32:55
  Duane Newton: Thanks again.
• 1:32:56
  Duane Newton: Look forward to seeing you, um, in person, and one of these days we'll get on the golf course, and I'll, uh, I'll, I'll carry your clubs.
• 1:33:07
  Kyle Rodino: Sounds like a, sounds like a plan.
• 1:33:10
  Duane Newton: All righty, buddy.
• 1:33:11
  Duane Newton: Well, you take care.
• 1:33:12
  Kyle Rodino: You too.
• 1:33:12
  Kyle Rodino: Have a great weekend.
• 1:33:13
  Kyle Rodino: See you.
• 1:33:13
  Kyle Rodino: See you later.
• 1:33:14
  Duane Newton: Bye.
• 1:33:19
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• 1:33:25
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• 1:33:34
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• 1:33:43
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• 1:33:51
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• 1:34:01
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• 1:34:09
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• 1:34:12
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