Latest / Sorta Sophisticated / Episode 094 -  The Quiet Grief of Becoming Someone Else

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Episode 094 -  The Quiet Grief of Becoming Someone Else · Sorta Sophisticated

• 0:04
  Speaker A: Welcome back to another episode of Sort of Sophisticated, the podcast where culture, curiosity and chaos collide. I'm your host, Pete, and with me, as always, is my much more interesting co host, Amanda. Hello, Amanda.
• 0:19
  Speaker B: Hello. How are you?
• 0:20
  Speaker A: I'm doing well. How are you doing? Other than freezing my buns off today, but otherwise okay.
• 0:25
  Speaker B: Like, you're either hot or you're cold.
• 0:26
  Speaker A: I know. I'm at the age where I am a menopausal, so what do you want me to say? I'm having manopause.
• 0:34
  Speaker B: Well, okay, fine.
• 0:35
  Speaker A: It's a condition.
• 0:36
  Speaker B: I guess it would be ageist if I made fun of you then. So here we go.
• 0:38
  Speaker A: It's totally manopause, right? Because you're in the perfect age group where no one makes fun of you.
• 0:42
  Speaker B: Yeah, no, I'm hitting 40, so it's downhill.
• 0:45
  Speaker A: That's it. That's right. We're done. Welcome.
• 0:49
  Speaker B: So what are we talking about today?
• 0:50
  Speaker A: We're going to talk about how old you are. That's what we're going to talk about for the whole episode.
• 0:53
  Speaker B: That's fine.
• 0:54
  Speaker A: Everything that's broken on you. No, today's going to be a weird one, actually, Amanda, today we're going to. About some shit that nobody tells you when you're an adult. So, official title. I'm just ripping the band aid. The quiet grief of becoming someone else. Wait, what did you just say? Peter, what's happening? Who am I becoming? Yeah, I know. Okay, so here's like, the deal.
• 1:16
  Speaker B: They're real deep.
• 1:16
  Speaker A: Okay, well, I'm gonna try not to make it deep, but it is kind of going to be like a deep episode. So I'm stuck on this thing because, you know, I got grown kids, duh. And I've noticed the advice I give them now, like, always falls into this category of not, like, do this or do that anymore. It's more like, well, you know, those doors will probably close or, you know, those doors will stay open if you do. Like, for some reason, my language is always around doors opening and doors closing. I'm trying to help them, like, work shit out, like, scenarios out. Does this make sense?
• 1:48
  Speaker B: Sure, you're talking through their experiences or what's happening or.
• 1:52
  Speaker A: And just trying to make sure they understand their choice. What could happen potentially with the choices they're making.
• 1:56
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 1:57
  Speaker A: Okay. So bear with me because I'm going to put all this together. But, like, it's really weird analogy. So me and Gabby, we bought our house, I don't know, 18 years ago, right? So the house we picked wasn't our first choice. Like, either one of our first choices. I don't know. Did you have the same experience with Trent? Did you? Oh, my God, I love the house. We're buying that house.
• 2:13
  Speaker B: Yeah, well, we compared the house that we bought to every other house.
• 2:16
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 2:16
  Speaker B: And, I mean, we were told that we didn't get the house that we currently have.
• 2:19
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 2:19
  Speaker B: So then we went shopping for another six months and compared every house to that house and one of the houses six months later.
• 2:25
  Speaker A: I mean, so yours was like, serendipity.
• 2:26
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
• 2:27
  Speaker A: Well, that's kind of a cute story. No, ours is like, my point is, you just compromise. It was probably the third best house that I want. Like, it didn't have the backyard I wanted, but it had a view. Or, like, it had all the rooms she wanted, but it didn't have, you know, whatever, the kitchen, the right place, whatever it is. My point is, is you end up compromising and realizing that it's not something either one of you actually would have picked on your own. Does that make sense?
• 2:53
  Speaker B: Okay, sure.
• 2:53
  Speaker A: And maybe I'm thinking about that, like, now a lot more. Right. Since Gabby passed. It's not like I want to move or anything, but I think I'm sort of having that moment of, like, how did I get here? How did I pick this? And I recognized that this whole concept of nobody tells you about what choice you made or compromised into and where it would lead you, it's like an abyss. You're, like, flying into the abyss is all I'm saying.
• 3:16
  Speaker B: I guess one way to look at it would be, like, every choice you make has a consequence, whether good or bad.
• 3:20
  Speaker A: Okay. Yes. And I'm not saying that's my whole point with my kids. I'm not saying the choice is either bad or good, but they all have some consequence. And I think what I'm trying to explain with the quiet grief of becoming someone else is nobody tells you. You just sort of realize one day, like, holy shit, things changed without life sort of telling me they changed. There's not like, a code. You just sort of figure it out.
• 3:42
  Speaker B: Well, it's like little steps here and there, little turns, little adjustments that lead you down the path.
• 3:47
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 3:47
  Speaker B: To where you are.
• 3:48
  Speaker A: I would say so. And then you're sort of left, in my case, mourning who I am now, not in a bad way, but just, like, in a way of. I didn't realize that part of me was now gone because I live in a house in Yorba Linda that I picked 18 years ago, and now I love My house. So I'm not mad about it. I just. Okay. But now I don't, I don't want to pick another one.
• 4:05
  Speaker B: Your good choices, your trade offs or whatever were actually the right ones. And here we are.
• 4:11
  Speaker A: This is what I'm getting to.
• 4:12
  Speaker B: So how is this going to make us cultured and curious or more self aware or.
• 4:17
  Speaker A: Well, I think that's all it is. I think it's just self awareness. I think that's the whole point of the whole episode is sort of. I had a moment where I was like, oh, it's not necessarily bad, it's not necessarily good. It just is what it is. I'm just figuring out how to name it now. And so that sort of somehow makes me feel like I'm more self aware and then.
• 4:33
  Speaker B: So you named it the grief of what we're becoming.
• 4:35
  Speaker A: The grief of becoming someone else.
• 4:37
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 4:37
  Speaker A: Because the idea is, am I who I really wanted to be or am I a result of many beautiful compromises that I've chosen to make?
• 4:50
  Speaker B: Right. But do you think this is a very American thing?
• 4:52
  Speaker A: Oh, I know that's a good question.
• 4:54
  Speaker B: Where we are like, you can be anything you want to be or what's your dream big? Or fill in the blank. Whereas other cultures, it is the daily step of life that like the theology of like, it'll guide you. And yes, you have decisions to go, you know, right or left or straight. Right.
• 5:15
  Speaker A: But this is why I love you. You blew my mind. Like that didn't even enter my mind. So I have to say two things to that. One, I have no idea because I have no self awareness when it comes to other cultures. So. Good for bringing that up. And yeah, so I would argue you're probably onto something. Like other cultures probably have number one, they probably have words for it. Two, they probably are more comfortable with all of their actions and choices. And you know, I'm certainly stereotyping, but my instinct is, yeah, it's probably sort of an American like thing. Interesting.
• 5:41
  Speaker B: I know. I feel like also like in other culture there's a different view, a lens. Right. That they're viewing life through versus Americans. But I mean, neither here nor there, not right or wrong. I just wonder if we tell our kids to dream big, you can be whatever you want to be. And so we instinctually have already decided what we want our future to look like. We want the white picket fence, we want this, we want that, we want.
• 6:04
  Speaker A: So I think there is some of that. Yeah. Yes. But this is more of the not like, did my Plan go according to what I thought it would when I was 18. This is more about again. It goes back to the compromise with Gabby, like with the house, the little choices I made, even the choice I make today to come here. Right. What does that mean? I've given up something else. I don't know what else I gave up. It's not clear to me what else I gave up. But, like, this is super important to me, and I don't want to change this.
• 6:29
  Speaker B: Then I guess you're talking about more of intentionality. Yeah. I think that what you do with your time, who you spend that time with.
• 6:36
  Speaker A: Yes, I would say so. And then recognizing it's okay to be again. I'll use the word mournful. I don't want to say sad. Of like. Well, then that means I chose not to do something with somebody else. But that's also okay.
• 6:49
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 6:49
  Speaker A: So it's, like, weird.
• 6:51
  Speaker B: No regrets.
• 6:51
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 6:52
  Speaker B: All right.
• 6:52
  Speaker A: No regrets.
• 6:53
  Speaker B: Well, what's our wow?
• 6:54
  Speaker A: Our wow? Our word of the week.
• 6:55
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 6:56
  Speaker A: All right. Our word of the week this week is prescience.
• 7:00
  Speaker B: Prescience.
• 7:00
  Speaker A: Prescience. P R E. Science. It looks like prescience, but it's not. You pronounce prescience, huh? It's a noun.
• 7:08
  Speaker B: But not prescience.
• 7:09
  Speaker A: No, we use. We don't do nouns. This is going to be hard because we usually do, like, verbs and adjectives. So this means the ability to know or sense something before it happens. So like foresight. Yeah, it comes from the Latin presensia. Don't know. Pre, meaning before. And sciencia, meaning knowledge. Yeah, so. So here we go. Like, when you feel like a decision is going to change you, but you really don't know how it's going to yet. Like a foreboding.
• 7:34
  Speaker B: Is this like, conscience? Like, conscience is spelled with science.
• 7:37
  Speaker A: Yeah, a little bit.
• 7:38
  Speaker B: Right.
• 7:38
  Speaker A: I'm going to say that. Yeah.
• 7:39
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 7:39
  Speaker A: Okay. Sorry. Yeah. But not pre. Science. Prescience. Got it. Yeah. Okay.
• 7:44
  Speaker B: I'll try not to have too much oppressions then, and pretend I know what we're talking about next. So go ahead and start us off with whatever it is. Is there history here? I know you kind of got this out of your brain, so not a
• 7:55
  Speaker A: lot of history here.
• 7:55
  Speaker B: But, I mean, there's, like, psychology. I'm sure there is.
• 7:58
  Speaker A: There's everything. When you said prescience, it sounded like you were Gollum in Lord of the Rings. Prescience. Yeah. No, I didn't want to do a lot of research this week, so I sort of went rogue. Yeah. I can't say, like, oh, back in 1847, some doctor named, you know, Dr. Van Nostren decided that we were going to do this, you know, grief thing. So, no, I don't have any of that. It's really more for me to have a therapy sesh because I was having a minute this whole week, and so thinking about my kids and thinking about me and thinking about my life, and I'm like, what better way to fake a sort of sophisticated episode?
• 8:30
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 8:31
  Speaker A: And just let you be my therapist for a while? So that's sort of what we're doing. Yeah. No history. Got it. Okay. Yeah. But before we start, I do have to move the call to action back up to the beginning so we can get more listeners. Because, I mean, I'm basically begging for more listeners. People. More than just subscribing and leaving a review. You have to share this with your friends. That is the call to action. Like, everybody on your contact list, just hit send. However you listen to this on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, whatever podcast platform you listen on, send it to all your friends. I'm begging you. Because here's the deal. If we don't reach a certain number of listenership by, like, a certain time, I'm gonna kill myself. So help me out.
• 9:10
  Speaker B: You're crazy.
• 9:11
  Speaker A: Can I get back on track? Yeah, I guess I was the only one who was off track.
• 9:13
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 9:14
  Speaker A: Okay. Exactly. So I was saying, you know how, like, this episode was born for my kids and, like, helping them with advice. So last week, I'm researching whatever podcast episode we were researching, and I'm staring out the window like a totally productive, normal adult, and I started thinking about what each of my kids was up to, like, at that moment. And then, of course, my next thought was 30 minutes later, I was like, wow, that took a really long time. And then I thought, wow, Gabby and I had a lot of kids. And then, of course, that went to, like. But why? Why did we have a lot of kids? Like, why did we have four kids? So then my brain went to. Well, I mean, I knew why we had four kids, but, like, specifically, like, what was our reason code for each one? Like, I don't remember talking through each thing with her. So I was completely off track, going totally down this other rabbit hole, figuring out this whole thing, and I realized it wasn't like we had some grand plan. I mean, we're type A, you know, us, right? We're crazy and we have plans. But, like, everything was sort of one decision was just sort of made. And then, like, we moved on, and the next decision was made, and we moved on and the next one, and so on and so forth. So, like, decisions just sort of stacked up. And I'm using kids as my example here, but my point was, we just sort of figured out, like, with limited information, just make a call, like, hey, do you want to have another kid? Yeah, we'd like to have another kid. Is this important to us? Yes, it's important to us. Let's move on. Let's do this. And it got me sort of figuring out at that moment. Then, well, that opened and closed certain doors for me as a single person, as a father, as a. As a husband. Like, all that just started sort of compounding, and I started realizing, holy shit, there's, like, some real meat behind this whole concept of we just assume that all of our choices stacked up are all excellent, and I love them, but the Peter version of having two kids doesn't exist. The Peter version of having an only child doesn't exist. The. The Peter and Gabby version of being married and not having kids doesn't exist. So those are all things that have sort of been lost. Does this make sense?
• 11:05
  Speaker B: Yeah, it just sounds like you're having an existential crisis.
• 11:08
  Speaker A: No, no, no, I'm not. Like, it's not that deep. That's. That's not the point I'm making. I'm. I'm. I'm trying to say that some version of myself didn't make it this far. That's all I'm saying. Some version of you didn't make it this far. You decided to marry Trent. You had two kids. You live in orange. Like, this is what the choices you've made. So I'm gonna use an example. I was. I don't know, in my 20s. I literally read every book I could on Mount Everest. I wanted to climb Mount Everest. I wanted to climb all seven summits. I read everything that I possibly could on this whole thing. Da, da, da, da, da. And then I got married and then quietly started having responsibilities. And here we are, 30 years later, and if you asked me, do I want to climb Mount Everest, I have zero interest in climbing Mount Everest. I think it's crazy to climb Mount Everest. I don't even know why I was ever interested in climbing Mount Everest. You with me?
• 11:59
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 11:59
  Speaker A: But the point is, is that that version of Pete is now gone. I don't blame anybody for it. It was my choice to make, but it's gone. It's just sort of like, okay, the Pete who was going to be The Mountaineer doesn't exist anymore.
• 12:12
  Speaker B: Got it.
• 12:13
  Speaker A: It's not existential. It's just sort of recognizing it's okay.
• 12:18
  Speaker B: I mean, really what you're trying to get to is that it's not really regret that you're describing. It's more that, like, you have an awareness that's catching up late of maybe, like, mourning, in a way, what could have been.
• 12:33
  Speaker A: Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to explain.
• 12:35
  Speaker B: I think maybe because we all think of, like, mourning and grieving as something that is negative and sad, that maybe if you flip it on its head, instead of it being something that's sad, that it's more about. Yeah, life may have been different, but you've gotten to this place for a reason.
• 12:54
  Speaker A: Totally. Yes. I think that's really good framing, because that's where I would argue I should spend more time. And that's ultimately, like, kind of when I was finished with all of my staring out the window and having my moment, I got there where I was like, no, no, this is actually, like,
• 13:07
  Speaker B: okay, like, I could do over of life. It's just. What, do you kind of sit there?
• 13:12
  Speaker A: No, because regret is, like, big. Like, for me, personally, regret something big. I don't know that I have any major big regrets in my life. Maybe not traveling with Gabby as much. We traveled when we were younger, and then we had kids, and then we didn't travel that much, like.
• 13:27
  Speaker B: Right.
• 13:27
  Speaker A: And I mean, I would say, like, yeah, that sucks, because Gabby's gone, and I really wanted to do that with her, but that's, like, kind of it. So regret's not the word. And I think you're right. I don't like the word sadness or grieving that you used either, because you're right. Like, if you can frame it right. I like the word mourning better. And I don't know, maybe morning means something different to me. Like, maybe I'm not defining it right, but I wouldn't change anything that I've done in my life. I'm simply recognizing that something's gone.
• 13:54
  Speaker B: Right.
• 13:54
  Speaker A: So maybe another stupid example. So, you know, I lived in Yoruba Linda, whatever. I mean, I don't know my whole adult life.
• 14:00
  Speaker B: Right.
• 14:01
  Speaker A: And I raised my kids in Yorba Linda. They all went to the same grade school, they all went to the same high school. So on the one hand, that's beautiful, and I don't want to change it. On the other hand, I would say my kids never experienced another city to live in ever. And now they can't.
• 14:15
  Speaker B: Fair. Sure.
• 14:16
  Speaker A: They can as adults. They can't growing up. So I traded. This is my point. I traded that life of sort of moving and experiencing something else and something new for what I thought was more important. Home, stability, whatever it was. Right. And that's not bad. So I'm not. Not grieving. I'm not sad as much as recognizing, like, it's more of a, you know, what they are. I guess maybe I'm also getting old. So, like, they're, aha. Moments. The older I'm getting, I'm like, huh, Right.
• 14:46
  Speaker B: But if you did that, your kids wouldn't be who they are today.
• 14:48
  Speaker A: Bingo. I. I got yes.
• 14:50
  Speaker B: So it's so not.
• 14:51
  Speaker A: It's not bad. It's just maybe I'm like, coming up with my own idea here around what this actually, like, means to me or what this is actually called. Like, when we grieve something. When Gabby died, when my parents died, everybody around, oh, okay, he's grieving. Oh, he's great. Like, they give me room. They're. I mean, they're still giving me room. They allow this for me. But if I literally looked at you and said, gee, Amanda, I wish I would have moved out of yor Belinda and homeschooled my kids somewhere else, and I'm really sad about that. You kind of look at me sideways. You kind of like, oh, well, you can talk to me about it if you want to, but, like, really, dude, you're doing fine. You're a good dude. Which is the point I'm trying to make. So I had to look this up because I wanted to know if there was a real word for this or not, or if I was just making all this shit up in my head, because I very well could have, let's be honest, I very well could have been. And I guess they have something called counterfactual grief. That's what they've coined it as. And it goes back all the way to something called counterfactual thinking that I guess psychologists made up in the 1980s, but then they applied it to grief, like, in the early 2000s. And it's the idea that we're grieving over something that didn't happen that never happened. So counter. Factual grief is what I'm trying to explain and maybe not doing a great job at it.
• 16:03
  Speaker B: Okay, then what is, I guess, the point of counterfactual grief and recognizing it and accepting it or getting past it? Because it really just sounds like kind of like midlife crisis.
• 16:14
  Speaker A: So the how do you get past it? Part is tough. Because I don't know that I have any great recommendations for that yet. But the midlife crisis part is, it's not the same thing to me. It's just not. This one's more about realizing my life's just changed and, like, I didn't give it permission to change. That's all. And maybe it's about me getting old. I, I, I fully admit that it might be about me just flat out getting old. Cause I think about my niece. Just got married. Shout out to Burton. Savannah, you're awesome. First time I ever officiated a wedding.
• 16:41
  Speaker B: Look at you.
• 16:42
  Speaker A: Very excited about that.
• 16:43
  Speaker B: Anyway, new resume line.
• 16:44
  Speaker A: But, like, like, totally. It's not like I'm going to invite them over to my house and be like, I'll. Hey. Yeah. So now that you're buried and you made this beautiful choice and everything, like, you just lost your ability to technically make your own decisions together. And by the way, you're gonna compromise on a house that neither one of you want. Why would I say that? Like, that's just old, man. I wouldn't say that to them. I'm not supposed to say that to them because that sounds stupid. So I just have to, like, recognize I'm sitting in my own and allow other folks to get where they need to go when they're ready. And on that journey. It's very paradoxical. For me, the whole thing is, like, really weird because life sort of protects you from it happening when you're younger sometimes.
• 17:23
  Speaker B: Always. You think always?
• 17:25
  Speaker A: Well, I would say, like, right now, I just. The vibe is you don't feel the same way as I do just about this episode. Like, I could totally tell I'm having a moment with this, and you're like, okay, I don't quite see it same way. Which is totally fine. I don't mind. That's why I love doing it with you. But, like, that's the whole point I'm making. Like, maybe however old we get, we're sort of protected until you get to a point where you don't need to be protected anymore. That's all.
• 17:42
  Speaker B: I wonder if part of it is, like, it's not that you're trying to solve or fix anything by thinking back on, like, what life could have been or would have been, but maybe it is that you're more nostalgic, I think, maybe of the past.
• 17:55
  Speaker A: Yeah, some of it.
• 17:56
  Speaker B: And what has happened. And I think a lot of that maybe comes from having lost Gabby. And your life, if she was still here, would be so vastly different than what it is, right? And you didn't give life permission for that shit to happen.
• 18:09
  Speaker A: Nope.
• 18:09
  Speaker B: And, and even conversely, like you working and not being able to homeschool your kids or, you know, I mean, I think you're an excellent father. So at all, but I think maybe more so what you're doing is that you're sitting in it and thinking about what could have been. Because now you're processing what your life has meant, what your legacy has meant. Now you're looking at through your, the lens, through your kids view, which I think is different because like the lesson, my kids view is very simple. Mom, can I have sugar and I'll have sugar versus yours is like big life changes, right? Big. Like this choice that Ruth may be making in college is going to affect her years down the line and she doesn't even realize it, but you can see it because you're looking back on your life and you're able to see a clearer path for her. And so maybe I think being in it is like your way of figuring out how to go postal on someone. Right. Or like changing how you would have done your life. And now you're instilling that in your kids by giving them the options of, hey, if you do this, how about this or this or this? Again, it's a different lens that I think creates this moment in time where you are feeling that life could have been different but you wouldn't change it. But it could have been. You could have been a comedian. You didn't have to be a, you know, president, CEO. You could have, you make trade offs. Right?
• 19:35
  Speaker A: So, so you're onto something ish. Because I would say, like, I agree with 90 of what you're saying and this could be my own self awareness problem, but like in the context of Gabby, I wasn't thinking about this at all. But that could be what's manifesting as where it's coming from. And I just don't know that because this to me was more like it wasn't like that deep. I know it seems like it's a really heavy episode I'm trying to explain, but really my thought process around this whole thing was like, you just live your life like, like I think the media does it or like you said earlier, you just sort of like, maybe your parents did it before you. So you just sort of the idea of the American dream or whatever it is, like decisions are additive, like, oh my God, I'm a kid, I, oh my God, I have friends now. Yay. And then it's like oh, my God. I fell in love. And. And great. And now. Oh, my God, now I have kids. My own kids. Yay. That's awesome. And okay, now I have a professional career. And so, like, everything is supposed to be additive. Whoever's explained that to you, right? I don't know. However, I learned that. I learned that. Maybe you learned it differently. That's totally fine. You were saying other cultures and are different. I love it. But, like, my concept of all this was, like, one good decision stacked upon another good decision is the way to go. And I'd argue that this is really more about recognizing that all of those decisions quietly rearrange your life under the surface. Under the surface without telling you, like, at all.
• 20:50
  Speaker B: Right.
• 20:51
  Speaker A: So you're. You're on this. And again, this could be my own weird. Pete, dude, you need to go smoke a joint. Deal with this. You're on this path, and, like, you don't even realize parts of your body you stop using and other parts you start using more. It's like your muscles. It's like the same thing when you work out. If you work out, your muscles, they stay, like, good, otherwise they atrophy.
• 21:09
  Speaker B: I mean, that's with anything. That's with anything about having muscles.
• 21:11
  Speaker A: This is the same exact muscle.
• 21:12
  Speaker B: Yes. But again, I think when we're looking at it through that lens, because you're just saying, like, all your good decisions don't just add up. Right. It rearranges your life and the path that you're on. Like, it's a little bit of navigating. Right. And I think you're able to do that better because you are farther out.
• 21:30
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 21:31
  Speaker B: And so when you look back.
• 21:33
  Speaker A: Right.
• 21:34
  Speaker B: You can pinpoint specific moments in your life.
• 21:36
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 21:37
  Speaker B: That were big decisions that you didn't think were big decisions in that moment.
• 21:40
  Speaker A: Right. That I would still make.
• 21:42
  Speaker B: You would still make it. Yes. 100 times you're able to go, oh, no, I didn't conscientiously think, oh, I'm compromising with Gabby. This is going to pay off in 18 years. No, you were in that moment analyzing what life was like at that exact moment in life.
• 21:56
  Speaker A: Yes, you were. Right.
• 21:57
  Speaker B: And so when you are.
• 21:58
  Speaker A: That's what I meant when I said you just sort of make decisions and go.
• 22:01
  Speaker B: Right. And I think so. I. I do think a big part of this is there is something in that saying that, oh, no, I'm. I'm the older, the wiser. You should listen to your elders. Right. I think there is some truth in that, because what you're Saying about looking back and just even grieving or mourning what could have been or what you could have done or whatever helps you then instill your life experience and what you've learned to your kids or to people who are younger than you.
• 22:28
  Speaker A: Yeah. And. Or even make choices for me for the next 20 years or however much longer I have left. Right, Absolutely. And I got to keep saying it. Not in this bad way, just. Just in a way. That's it.
• 22:39
  Speaker B: Right. Because you're saying basically it just shapes you and we don't realize how much it shapes us as we're going through it. We don't realize the trade offs, the forethought. No to. I mean.
• 22:47
  Speaker A: And what's the word? You just did it.
• 22:50
  Speaker B: Oh.
• 22:51
  Speaker A: Oh, my God. Prescience. Oh, my God. You just did it. That was excellent.
• 22:54
  Speaker B: Unless I used.
• 22:54
  Speaker A: You didn't even know that was so good.
• 22:56
  Speaker B: But. Yeah, but we don't have that for the prescience of thinking. But we're not supposed to because that would then be like, you know, seeing to the future.
• 23:04
  Speaker A: Right.
• 23:04
  Speaker B: But I think part of what we also have to do is to trust our instincts, that we are making good choices and decisions in a thoughtful way. I mean, and it's fine to, like, you know, shoot from the hip and whatever, but we need to understand the psychology behind the decision that we're making. Is it emotional? Is it logical? Are we compromising, you know, whatever that may be in order for it then I think to be a quote, unquote, good decision. And even a bad decision can turn out good. Like, again, every decision you make has a consequence, whether good or bad. Then there's a spectrum of that. Yeah.
• 23:39
  Speaker A: Then it's the choices you make after that. And if they. Right, absolutely. Yeah.
• 23:42
  Speaker B: Well, it snowballs, I guess.
• 23:44
  Speaker A: I think life has a way of. I said it before, life has a way of protecting you from this. So maybe it is this wisdom. And I'm not suggesting I'm some sort of Jedi or something. I'm just saying, like, it's weird because. Yeah. I don't know. I'm just sort of sitting in it right now.
• 23:57
  Speaker B: Well, and I think a lot of times, like, you're going to want to make choices, and I think you did, and you mentioned it earlier that you wanted stability for your family. You wanted to make the right choice for your kids. You wanted to be able to be predictable. Predictable matters and that it was safe for you. But some people, predictability and stability, they want the opposite. Chaos.
• 24:19
  Speaker A: I understand that.
• 24:19
  Speaker B: Right. For them. So they. They Want the opposite.
• 24:21
  Speaker A: So I think, but that, but therein lies my point. That's a perfect example that you just brought up. So I wanted predictability, I wanted stability. People don't realize. What's that code for? Like, what that takes away. Unfortunately, what that takes away is some spontaneity.
• 24:36
  Speaker B: Well, and I just thought of like, by default, you give me sits all the time for my kids not having a structured, regimented bedtime. Your kids aren't in bed by 7:30.
• 24:44
  Speaker A: Perfect.
• 24:45
  Speaker B: No, we're not. Cause you know what? There's Christmas lights and we're gonna go at 9 o'. Clock. Or just recently we had dinner late. We ended up in Las Vegas and Trent was like, let's take the girls to go see the 7pm show at Cobb. We'll get home around 1am Done and done. And they were able to hang. Right, Right, right.
• 24:59
  Speaker A: And we make trade offs.
• 25:01
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 25:01
  Speaker A: So your trade offs are the spontaneity and the fun. And I love that. And then there's some predictability and stability that might be missing. Not bad.
• 25:09
  Speaker B: Correct.
• 25:10
  Speaker A: You love it that way. Great. Your girls, as a result, are gonna grow up a certain way. All those things. I'm the opposite. I wanted predictability, less spontaneity. As a result, Pete's not so spontaneous anymore. As a 53 year old guy, you drag me out, I'm like, ah, do I really wanna go do what again? All I'm saying is I didn't know. When somebody said, would you like predictability? I said, yes, sign me up. Nobody said, by the way, I'm taking away spontaneity. Nobody said that to me. So as a result, I'm just sitting here now recognizing, oh, that's interesting. I'm not mad. That's interesting.
• 25:45
  Speaker B: I would ask, does this at all encourage you to lean into doing things different now?
• 25:54
  Speaker A: No. I don't want to say I'd be reckless about anything. No, I love the concept. But here's my point. So I got to this Zen place with this whole thing because, I mean,
• 26:01
  Speaker B: it just feels like you're silently like mourning what could have been. But then you also are like, no, I don't want to lose my identity or, you know, who I am or what I've been for the last.
• 26:11
  Speaker A: And so maybe this is old man stuff.
• 26:13
  Speaker B: But Yeah, I don't know what time.
• 26:14
  Speaker A: Here's what I would say. I would say that making those choices. Yeah, I was committing to something. It was a commitment.
• 26:20
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 26:20
  Speaker A: Commitments are good. If you would talk to me about values, I would Say commitment is a huge, like, who Peter Balinsky is at his core, right? So I'm super thankful for commitment. Like, the definition of commitment is that it closes doors. It narrows things down. I'm committed to Gabby. I'm committed to my kids. I'm committed to a path. I'm committed to this podcast with you. I'm like, so there's a beauty in that that I refuse to give up something else for. So to your point of, like, well, now do you look at it and you're like, well, maybe I'll be a little bit more reckless? I think the answer is no. I'm simply saying I was able to get to a point sitting in that chair last week where I was like, I recognize all this. I still love my commitments. I still love my path. I'm okay. And I'm super glad I spent time thinking about it, because if I wouldn't have thought about it, I'd probably be more of an asshole to somebody the next day. That's all. That's sort of as far as that got. Like, it's not like I had some magic other thing to do or fix.
• 27:20
  Speaker B: I mean, I think overall what you're saying is that the commitment narrows your choices. It gives shape, right, to your life boundaries. And then you see that through, again, a lens when you are presented choices and options. And even though it may be appealing to one, it's not appealing to you. But that's because your commitments and your boundaries are different than someone else's. And so I think when you look back and you kind of go, oh, it could have been like that. You're just heating way. I think for the future you to decide, do I want to change any of that? Like, if I think if we were to take anything out of all of this is that when we go through life, we make these choices, we end up in a certain place, and at some point in time, we should look back and be like, huh, should I have joined a sorority? Should I not have joined a sorority? Should I have gone to that college? I've gone to a different college. Like, and what would that have done for me overall, to then be able to consider your current commitments, your current choices in a different lens, right?
• 28:16
  Speaker A: And not do anything rash, just be able to look at those things and be like, okay, I want to make some tweaks. I want to make some adjustments. Again, it just goes back to self, the idea of self awareness, where you can sit in all of that, still be comfortable and know, like, when you make your next decision, You. Oh, wait a second. So if I do pick predictability. Okay. Then I am going to lose a little bit of that. Okay, I'm okay with that still. So you're putting words around the choice. I think a little better. And again, maybe this is old man talk, but, like, I feel like that's the thing that I learned where, like, now I can really see those choices a little more clear than I could when I was 30 or 40.
• 28:57
  Speaker B: Looking at it more logically, too.
• 28:58
  Speaker A: Okay, fine.
• 28:59
  Speaker B: Right. Because I think society as a whole, it's. How are you feeling? What do you feel? No, you should make the best decision for you. And sometimes, I mean, it's true, we should be in tune with our emotions, but also, I do think that, like, society as a whole is taboo to even remotely look at, like, a logical side of it or, like, the other side of the coin in such a way that maybe I am wrong. Maybe I should do something different. Maybe if I did this decision, this would be different. So moving forward, I should consider xyz. And I think that part of grieving, as I think we've been calling it, is counterfactual grief.
• 29:39
  Speaker A: Counterfactual, which is so much more boring. Go ahead.
• 29:41
  Speaker B: But it's not something that we should be, like, ashamed of or that we should think negatively of. I think it's just more of a way to pay, maybe. Devil's advocate.
• 29:51
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 29:51
  Speaker B: You know, of. Hey, have you looked at it this way?
• 29:54
  Speaker A: Okay. I appreciate the way you're talking to me about it now because sort of at the beginning, I felt like when we were chatting, you were using words that were more negative, like grief or, like, you know, regret or things like that. And I think you're sort of trying to at least see what I'm trying to see, which is, I don't know,
• 30:10
  Speaker B: you're the one who called it grieving.
• 30:11
  Speaker A: No, maybe it's a shitty title, but, like. But the point is, is, no, you're just sort of looking at it, and I'm looking at it with gratitude. I'm actually, like. I'm at a point now where it's like, it's all good because I'm learning from it, and it's awesome. And I wish society would, like, here's the difference. If one of my Brent. Dear friend Brent, right. If he wanted to sit with me and talk to me about this, I would sit with him and talk to him about it. Like, I would have no problem. And I would not judge what he wants to talk to me about. If I was a 30 year old Pete talking to 30 year old Brent. I'd be like, what the fuck are you talking about? Really, bitch? Like, grow up. Like, I feel like if there's anything that's happening, I'm getting softer in recognizing. We should allow, I certainly want to be able to talk about it. Allow other people to chat about it so they can like get it out.
• 30:54
  Speaker B: Because if you, what you're saying is that you're wanting to create space to allow people to be able to process what they're going through in that moment
• 31:02
  Speaker A: in life without judging them.
• 31:03
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 31:03
  Speaker A: And it doesn't have to be big stuff. Right. So you, you literally how many times per episode, everybody, do you call me an asshole? Well, how many times do you think? Right, okay. Exactly. Okay, a lot. But, but, but, but therein lies. Some of the issue is like, if I don't do this, I think that's where I was putting it together. If I can't do this part, then I am the cynic, I am the asshole, I am the old guy in the room.
• 31:27
  Speaker B: But that's, I think when it comes with a thought process of like, I am who I am and you like me or you don't like me.
• 31:31
  Speaker A: Yeah, I want to be careful because that's like the whole point of why we were like trying to sit here and talk about all this kind of stuff.
• 31:36
  Speaker B: But that's my point though, is that if you have that mentality that I am who I am, you either like me or you don't like me. I either rub you the wrong way or I don't. You can tolerate me. You can't. Like that attitude alone is not self reflective.
• 31:49
  Speaker A: No, it's not.
• 31:50
  Speaker B: And so, I mean, I think this whole point of this episode is to be self reflective a little bit.
• 31:55
  Speaker A: Yes, A lot. A lot of it.
• 31:57
  Speaker B: But also, if you think about it like social media, Hollywood marketing, the news, none of that calls for self reflection.
• 32:03
  Speaker A: No, the opposite. Yeah, right.
• 32:05
  Speaker B: You hide it, you mask it.
• 32:07
  Speaker A: But my point is that's because everybody's going in that direction and I'm saying, no, go the other direction. Which is like, I love my life, I love my choices. I would make them all again. And it's still okay that all these other things happened and that I missed those other things that didn't happen. I'm okay with all those things.
• 32:20
  Speaker B: And I also think though, it's okay to look back and be like, ooh, I don't know if I would make that exact choice again, but I did learn, blah, blah, blah, or it did bring me to blah, blah, blah, because I think, I think you're trying to push for more of a positive viewership than a negative viewership. But our society as a whole, I think is very negative. Everything. It's this or that, right? It's.
• 32:38
  Speaker A: It's black or white. It is. No, it's, it's. It's our two party system. It's the whole thing. Yes.
• 32:42
  Speaker B: And if you can't figure out the gray and you can't figure out like, how maybe this mild choice affected where you are today in a positive way, then. Yeah, I mean, you're always gonna shout out a luck.
• 32:58
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I know.
• 32:59
  Speaker B: Bad.
• 32:59
  Speaker A: But I know, I know, I know, I know. I just think sort of at the end of it all, there's like, there's no fixing it. I started this whole thought process with, I'm gonna come in here, I wanna talk to Amanda about this whole thing and I don't wanna fix anything. So, like, the goal was not to be like, okay, here's the hack, or here's the thing.
• 33:13
  Speaker B: I mean, I think the only thing to fix or the hack would be is to maybe look at it through gratitude. Right. How you need to be like, is it gracious? I don't know.
• 33:21
  Speaker A: Gracious. Grateful.
• 33:21
  Speaker B: Grateful.
• 33:22
  Speaker A: There you go. Yeah, yeah.
• 33:23
  Speaker B: So stupid. English esl.
• 33:25
  Speaker A: I knew, you know what, I knew
• 33:26
  Speaker B: what you were thinking.
• 33:27
  Speaker A: I had a lot of prescience right there.
• 33:28
  Speaker B: There you go.
• 33:30
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 33:30
  Speaker B: But it's about being grateful for the life that you do get to live and the choices that you do get to make and not necessarily reminisce on the what could have been, what should have been, and then taking that gratitude and like, if you. There was something that you should have done, then learning from it and applying it in your life further, or being able to hold space for others and be able to have that conversation in like such a way that people can then talk about loss without panicking or feeling awkward or icky or feeling like they're going to fail. If they don't, they have to take the safe route or going against the grain of a society does. And I think it's so hard because it's not accepted.
• 34:11
  Speaker A: I love that this is that you. Sorry. That was really cool. That was a very good way of summing up what my brain was trying to explain this entire time in a very terrible way.
• 34:20
  Speaker B: So I don't know about that, but. No, it's just what processed in my brain.
• 34:24
  Speaker A: That was. That was it. That was my moment. And it all started it all started because I was thinking about my kids for way too long, so there you go. Yeah. Love it.
• 34:33
  Speaker B: All right, well, do you have any fun facts?
• 34:35
  Speaker A: Fun facts? I'm supposed to have fun facts about an episode where I didn't want to do research and just wanted to smoke a joint, star out my window.
• 34:42
  Speaker B: I'm sure somewhere in there you found, like, a good tidbit. Oh, that was interesting. I did add it to fun facts. I know, so good.
• 34:49
  Speaker A: Okay. All right, so. So here we go. Are you ready? Fun facts. Number one. Research shows that as people get older, their regrets change. So apparently when you're young, you regret things you did. This is funny because this is where.
• 35:04
  Speaker B: Wait, this is the whole freaking episode right now.
• 35:06
  Speaker A: As you age, you regret things you didn't do. Ba, ba, ba. Okay, that makes sense.
• 35:10
  Speaker B: Wait, why didn't you start this with that one?
• 35:12
  Speaker A: Sorry. So, yeah, that was real research, people. Okay, number two, so the human brain is not wired to notice slow changes. You know what we should have done? We should have just went to fun facts first.
• 35:23
  Speaker B: Yeah. Okay.
• 35:25
  Speaker A: Okay. It's terrible. The whole fight or flight thing we talked about before, like in another episode or something. Yeah, the amygdala. I think we're wired to spot danger, not the slow burn threat. So.
• 35:37
  Speaker B: Because we are like instinctual creatures, Right?
• 35:40
  Speaker A: Because that's how we work.
• 35:41
  Speaker B: It's a decision making.
• 35:42
  Speaker A: So anyway, my point is, the next time you're all like, how did I end up here? Like I am, you can sort of chill out because you're not stuck. This shit snuck up on you, and we aren't built to notice that it sneaks up on you. Right? So you have like a. I guess I'm giving you an excuse.
• 35:57
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 35:58
  Speaker A: Okay. Number three, as we age, we actually make less decisions as adults than when we were younger. But the weight of each of those decisions gets much bigger.
• 36:07
  Speaker B: Yeah. So again, sugar, no sugar totally tracks. Buy a house, not buy a house.
• 36:11
  Speaker A: Right. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah. It's not because we're less capable. That's not the point. Right. They say it's because your commitments stack up.
• 36:18
  Speaker B: But that's why as kids, you allow your children, or you should anyways, to make simple choices. So that way they work that muscle of making a choice.
• 36:28
  Speaker A: That's it. Absolutely right. Okay. And finally, there's scientific proof to this whole thing that we've been talking about this entire time. Check the evidence. So evidence suggests that nostalgia, like missing who you used to be in a time long gone by, peaks during periods of emotional Stability. Not during chaos. People aren't nostalgic when life is falling apart. They're nostalgic when their life is settled, but shifting around them a little underneath. So you would argue my life is settling and things are shifting. Interesting. Which proves our whole theory that missing past versions of ourselves isn't a sign we're unhappy. It's a sign you're integrating the who you were with who you are now. And I would argue that.
• 37:07
  Speaker B: Processing. Processing.
• 37:09
  Speaker A: Or still. Right. Or still stuck in processing mode. There you go. That was all my fun facts. I didn't have a lot, but I thought those were, like.
• 37:14
  Speaker B: Well, they're very interesting.
• 37:15
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
• 37:15
  Speaker B: I mean, it very much, like, tied in everything. I think so. In a very, very good way. I think above all, right, we're all just trying to make good choices throughout life. And sometimes when we look back, we may say, hey, maybe we should have done something a little differently. But at the end of the day, we are who we are. We're where we are in the time that we're supposed to be in.
• 37:34
  Speaker A: We're doing the best we can.
• 37:35
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 37:36
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 37:36
  Speaker B: Okay. Any call to actions, Anything that we should do besides just being aware and tuning into ourselves, the awareness matters.
• 37:42
  Speaker A: So I would say, like, let's. Let's sort of do the.
• 37:45
  Speaker B: Pay attention.
• 37:46
  Speaker A: Yeah. Pay attention to it. Right. First of all, identify what's happening. Sit in it. Be uncomfortable. It's okay. Try to get a name on it without getting anxious or depressed or any of that kind of shit. Or in my case, super frustrated. I. I think just figuring out how to notice it is super important. So that'd be one thing. And then, like, I don't know if there's a real call to action, but I'm gonna go try to do it. Like, I'm gonna. Besides you. I'm gonna try to talk to somebody about it and just see, like, ask one of my friends. Just be like, hey, so, like, have you ever thought of this thing called, you know, counterfactual grief? And they're gonna be like, what are you talking about, Peter? And I'm gonna see what. What happens and test the waters. At the very least, I'll start talking about it with people.
• 38:20
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 38:20
  Speaker A: And maybe they will talk to me back.
• 38:22
  Speaker B: Great.
• 38:22
  Speaker A: All right, so to sum up this episode and be sort of sophisticated on this whole thing, if that's even a thing, we'll. With this one. I don't even know. Let's go. Okay. Counterfactual grief is defined as the quiet grief that comes with paths not taken futures that never happen in versions of yourself that could have existed, not because you screwed up, but because you made a conscious decision to choose something else. Number two, this kind of grief isn't about regret. That wasn't the point of what I was trying to explain. It doesn't mean that we want to do over. It means that we're just aware that some version of of ourselves didn't survive after the choices we've made. And that shows up later in our adult lives. Apparently in my case, at the age of 53 years old, and apparently in Amanda's case, not yet. Number three, most good adult decisions are exchanges, not additions. That's what I was trying to communicate. They give your life shape by narrowing options, not by maximizing happiness. Commitment is what makes a life meaningful, but it also quietly closes doors. Number four, this loss feels illegal to admit because nothing really went wrong. Your life is good. So instead of naming this, people assume something must be wrong with them, and that's not true. Well, something is wrong with me specifically, but in your cases, that's not true. You're all okay people. And finally, naming this grief isn't about fixing it. Awareness alone is the victory here. Once you have a language for it, it stops leaking into your life as like, what we were talking about. Being restless or resenting or self sabotaging or anything like that.
• 39:51
  Speaker B: And.
• 39:51
  Speaker A: And you just sort of feel comfortable with the version of the person you've become. And that's where we're at. So all I got no solutions. Just my massive redemption arc making me feel like I'm a good person, even though I'm probably not. There you go.
• 40:04
  Speaker B: All right, there you have it, dear listeners. A deep dive into the quiet grief of becoming someone else. The part of adulthood nobody really warns you about, because why should they? Nothing really went wrong. It just all changed. So if we did our job right today, you're walking away a little more sophisticated. Not because you figured anything out, but because you finally have language for a feeling you've been probably carrying around without a name. As always, if you like this episode, hit subscribe, leave a review, and as Pete said earlier, share with every friend you have in your contact list. Because I bet if you do that, there will be at least one who will thank you for this episode. Until next time, stay curious, stay gentle with yourself, and remember, being sophisticated isn't about having the perfect life. It's about understanding your choices and being honest about what they cost.