Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Listener Q&A — Suicide at Child's High School

Transcript

Listener Q&A — Suicide at Child's High School · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Before we start today. This episode discusses youth suicide. Listening
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: to discretion is advised. We'll be careful with how we
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: talk about it. But if this topic is raw for
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: you right now, it's okay to skip this one and
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: come back another day. And if you need support, you
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: can call Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen anytime. We'll share
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: more resources at the end of this episode.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, thanks honey. A student dies by suicide and every
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: parent at that school is asking the same question, what
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: do I say to my child today? It's a listener
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  Speaker 2: question that we wish that we never had to answer,
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  Speaker 2: and some research that will genuinely surprise you because the
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: kids we assume are least affected may actually be the
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: most at risk. That's today on the Happy Families podcast
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Stay with Us. This is the Happy Family's podcast, Real
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: Parenting Solutions, every single day. It's Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast,
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: where Justin and Kylie Coulson Every Tuesday on the podcast,
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: we are your tricky questions. You can send them to
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: us via podcasts at Happy families dot com dot a.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: You just send us a voice note to podcasts at
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: Happyfamilies dot com dot au. Alternatively, go to Happy Families
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: dot com dot you scroll down to where it says podcasts,
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: press the record button and start talking, just like Elizabeth
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: did with this question for today, And just before we
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  Speaker 2: get into today's question, it is a tricky topic. It's
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: a heavy one. We are going to have it with
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: a lot of care before we play it or remind
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  Speaker 2: it that we won't be going into any details about
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  Speaker 2: how anyone died, and we'd encourage you to follow that
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: same principle in conversations at home. It matters, and we'll
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: explain why shortly. A lot of research in today's pod,
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  Speaker 2: some of it brand new and world leading, and it
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  Speaker 2: happens to be Australian. So let's hear from this beautiful
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  Speaker 2: month first and then we'll walk through it together.
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  Speaker 3: Hi, Kylie and Justin. I'm a mum of four and
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  Speaker 3: a long term daily listener. I just want to say
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  Speaker 3: thank you for the helpful and courageous work you do.
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  Speaker 3: I often feel like I'm walking through parents alongside to
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  Speaker 3: incredibly knowledgeable and supportive people. I'm reaching out because there
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  Speaker 3: has recently been a suicide at my child's high school.
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  Speaker 3: My child is in year seven and the student who
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  Speaker 3: sadly passed away was in the senior years. Well, the
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  Speaker 3: circumstances are still being investigated. It seems social media may
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  Speaker 3: have played a role based on what's been shared with
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  Speaker 3: the students. I'd really appreciate any advice on how to
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  Speaker 3: talk to my child about this heartbreaking situation. Are there
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  Speaker 3: specific resources or key talking points you'd recommend? Thank you
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: so much.
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  Speaker 1: Well, first of all to Elizabeth and to any other
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  Speaker 1: mum or parent dealing with this. We're so sorry. This
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  Speaker 1: is tragic on every level.
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  Speaker 2: Yet nothing more awful, Nothing more awful.
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  Speaker 1: But I guess my first honest instinct as a mum
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  Speaker 1: is as a child in year seven, having not associated
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  Speaker 1: with the child. Do we even need to bring it up?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah? So I get that, and the instinct to protect
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  Speaker 2: your child makes sense. It comes from a loving place.
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  Speaker 2: The research KYE on this says exactly the opposite, that
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  Speaker 2: that distance is not going to be protective, It may
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  Speaker 2: actually be problematic. There's a landmark study. It was conducted
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  Speaker 2: in twenty thirteen by Swanson and Coleman, publishing the Canadian
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  Speaker 2: Medical Association Journal, and over twenty thousand young people were
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  Speaker 2: followed over time. They found two things that flipparentuition's upside
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  Speaker 2: down here. The first is this, after a school mate suicide,
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  Speaker 2: whether a young person personally knew the student or not
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  Speaker 2: made no difference to their risk, Absolutely none. Everyone in
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  Speaker 2: that school community is affected.
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  Speaker 1: It's curious. I remember going through similar things in my
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  Speaker 1: high school and the I guess the taunt in the
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  Speaker 1: playground was you didn't even know them, Why were you
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  Speaker 1: so upset? Right, But you're suggesting that just because you
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  Speaker 1: didn't know them, that logic doesn't actually stick.
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  Speaker 2: It doesn't, And I'm so glad you brought that up,
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  Speaker 2: because when we think back to our childhoods, if something
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  Speaker 2: like this did occur, even if you didn't know them,
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  Speaker 2: there's this profound contagion feeling that ripples across the entire
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  Speaker 2: student population of the school, regardless of the closeness of
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  Speaker 2: the connection. And the second part from this study, this
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  Speaker 2: one's in common study that really stunned me. The youngest
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  Speaker 2: kids were the most affected, so twelve and thirteen year olds.
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  Speaker 2: This was from high schools. Twelve and thirteen year olds
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  Speaker 2: who had experienced the suicide of a schoolmate were around
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  Speaker 2: six times more likely to experience suicidal thoughts, even after
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  Speaker 2: the researchers did statistical analysis and controls for things like
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  Speaker 2: previous depression and anxiety. So we're talking about year seven,
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  Speaker 2: which is exactly Elizabeth's child, exactly this month's child. The
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  Speaker 2: kids that we assume furthest from it are carrying the
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  Speaker 2: most risk.
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  Speaker 1: So that's alarming to me. Six times more likely. Right,
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  Speaker 1: what does the data tell us Why are these younger
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  Speaker 1: children so much more at risk?
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  Speaker 2: Researchers think it's developmental, so they're old enough to understand death,
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  Speaker 2: but they don't have psychological architecture, the psychological equipment, the
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  Speaker 2: resources to process it well, and they're the most susceptible
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  Speaker 2: to what we call contagion. I mentioned that a moment ago,
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  Speaker 2: the way that it ripples around the whole environment. And
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  Speaker 2: here's something that is I think the most shocking of
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  Speaker 2: all That elevated risk lasted in this research about two.
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  Speaker 1: Years after the event.
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  Speaker 2: After the event, so this conversation matters. It doesn't just
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  Speaker 2: matter in the days after, It matters in the months after.
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  Speaker 2: Literally kids are still thinking about it two years later.
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  Speaker 1: So here's what I know parents are thinking, because I'm
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  Speaker 1: thinking at if I'm sitting with my twelve year old child,
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  Speaker 1: and I ask them, have you ever had thoughts of suicide?
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  Speaker 1: I'm so concerned I'm going to put ideas in their head.
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  Speaker 2: So this is the most common thing I hear on
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  Speaker 2: this particular topic. And it's also a myth, which is
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  Speaker 2: really hard for me to say, because my intuition is
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  Speaker 2: the same as yours, Like why am I talking about this?
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  Speaker 2: Surely if I just let it go, that's got to
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  Speaker 2: be better than putting it into their mind. But it's
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  Speaker 2: been tested really, really well. Now, science is always about testing,
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  Speaker 2: and one day this may be disproven and maybe our
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  Speaker 2: intuitions will be right. But right now, the best data
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  Speaker 2: comes from Dazzy and colleagues at twenty fourteen study in
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  Speaker 2: psychological medicine. They reviewed as a meta analysis, reviewed thirteen
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  Speaker 2: studies asking exactly that question. They looked at adolescents, they
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  Speaker 2: looked at adults. They studied general populations as well as
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  Speaker 2: at risk populations, and in all thirteen of those studies
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  Speaker 2: in this meta analysis, not a single study found that
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  Speaker 2: asking increased suicidal thinking. If anything, the evidence actually pointed
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  Speaker 2: the other way. And one of those studies, a lady
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  Speaker 2: called Madeline Gould in her team, she surveyed over a
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  Speaker 2: thousand high school students about suicidal thoughts, and then checked
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  Speaker 2: on them two days later, and the kids who'd been
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  Speaker 2: asked whether or not they'd ever had thoughts of suicide
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  Speaker 2: were less distressed than the kids who weren't asked less distressed. Right,
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  Speaker 2: how does that work? Because someone finally opened the door.
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  Speaker 2: So asking communicates as a parent, I can handle this topic,
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  Speaker 2: so you can bring it to me, And asking allows
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  Speaker 2: a child to reassure themselves that they're okay. It's like
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  Speaker 2: you're saying, have you ever had any thoughts like that?
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  Speaker 2: So your child's saying, oh, you feel strong enough to
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  Speaker 2: talk about it. But when the child says no, I haven't,
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  Speaker 2: they actually feel the reassurance inside themselves because they're saying, no, no,
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  Speaker 2: I haven't, I'm actually okay. That's a reaffirmation to them
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  Speaker 2: that they're on board. So here's how the conversation starts.
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  Speaker 2: For Elizabeth, who's sent this question through to us and
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  Speaker 2: asked us what to say, the first thing is don't
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  Speaker 2: leave with a lecture, leave with a question. So the
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  Speaker 2: question might be what are the kids at school saying?
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  Speaker 2: And then just listen, because I promise you the kids
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  Speaker 2: at school saying stuff, And then your job is to
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  Speaker 2: very gently correct rumors and then ask directly and really calmly,
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  Speaker 2: have you ever had thoughts like that? And if the
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  Speaker 2: answer is yes, you stay calm, you say I'm really
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  Speaker 2: glad you told me that, thank you, and you get support,
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  Speaker 2: and we'll talk about how to do that in just
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  Speaker 2: a sec. We need to take a quick break and
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  Speaker 2: there are many other things that we need to talk
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  Speaker 2: about here.
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  Speaker 1: So after the break, what do we actually say when
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  Speaker 1: they ask why it happened? The social media piece because
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  Speaker 1: this mom specifically raised it and the warning signs to
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  Speaker 1: watch for.
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  Speaker 2: Stay with us, We're back. It's the Happy Famili's podcast.
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  Speaker 1: Justin the hardest question, a child will getting a bit
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  Speaker 1: choked up already, why did they do it? And in
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  Speaker 1: this case, there are already rumors flying around that social
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  Speaker 1: media played a role? So how does a parent answer?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, So, first, I really like the way Elizabeth praised
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  Speaker 2: the question. She was really careful in what she said,
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  Speaker 2: and I've got the quote here because I wrote it down.
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  Speaker 2: Social media may have played a role, is what she said.
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  Speaker 2: The technical term that we use is postvention, So a
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  Speaker 2: postvention is like an intervention. But after the fact, So
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  Speaker 2: you didn't intervene, but you are now intervening after it happened.
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  Speaker 2: So every postvention guideline that we have, and in Australia
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  Speaker 2: that's the mind frame guidelines, says, don't give a simple
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  Speaker 2: single cause explanation. So you never say it was because
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  Speaker 2: of bullying or it was because of social media because
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  Speaker 2: and think very careful about what I'm going to say here.
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  Speaker 2: What that says to a vulnerable thirteen year old who's
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  Speaker 2: also having a hard time online. It frames suicide as
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  Speaker 2: an understandable response to a singular problem that he or
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  Speaker 2: she might have. So if you say it was social
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  Speaker 2: media and your child says I'm having a hard time
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  Speaker 2: on social media, all of a sudden, we've got a
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  Speaker 2: single cause that led to a specific outcome. So suicide is,
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  Speaker 2: and we've got so much data on this. It's almost
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  Speaker 2: always the result of a confluence of factors converging, usually
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  Speaker 2: including inestimable psychological pain that the person couldn't see past.
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  Speaker 2: It's never it's never just one thing that led to
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  Speaker 2: that person's passing.
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  Speaker 1: So if I mind myself in this position, what are
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  Speaker 1: the actual words that I say to my child?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say something like this, I'd say, we
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  Speaker 2: don't fully know why, and we probably never will. What
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  Speaker 2: we do know is they were in a lot of pain,
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  Speaker 2: a huge amount of pain, and in that moment they
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  Speaker 2: couldn't see another way through. But there are other ways through,
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  Speaker 2: there always are, and there always will be few. And
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  Speaker 2: while we're on language, I think it's all so important
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  Speaker 2: that we say died by suicide. We don't say committed suicide.
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  Speaker 2: That's the language of crime. It's saying this person committed
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  Speaker 2: a crime in the loss of their life. So died
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  Speaker 2: by suicide is a much more I think appropriate way
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  Speaker 2: to say it. And we never ever ever discuss how.
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  Speaker 2: We don't talk about the method, we don't talk about
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  Speaker 2: the location. That detail, based on the best research I've found,
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  Speaker 2: is the single most dangerous piece of information for other
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  Speaker 2: young people, which.
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  Speaker 1: I guess brings us to social media because that's where
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  Speaker 1: kids will start seeing romas and the tribute page and
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  Speaker 1: often the really awful stuff about it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, the social media context is just brutal because when
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  Speaker 2: we think of social media, we think of that person
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  Speaker 2: who says I miss you, gone forever, and you think
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  Speaker 2: about the tributes. But that's not just what happens. There
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  Speaker 2: are especially kids. There are people that get online and
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  Speaker 2: they start rumors and they say the most horrid, brutal stuff.
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to brag a bit about some Australian research
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  Speaker 2: here for a sec Joe Robinson is a researcher. Her
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  Speaker 2: team at Origin have developed the Chat Safe Guidelines. They're
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  Speaker 2: the world's first evidence based guidelines that help young people
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  Speaker 2: communicate safely online about suicide and they did it with
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  Speaker 2: young people involved in the research. They published it in
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  Speaker 2: twenty eighteen and it was updated in twenty twenty three.
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  Speaker 2: It was trialed and now it's used around the world.
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  Speaker 2: So for parents there are three practical things. The first
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: is don't ban the phone. She's going to grieve with
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  Speaker 2: the peers online whether you're there or not. I think
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  Speaker 2: it's better to sit alongside her while she scrolls. The
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  Speaker 2: second thing, help it a spot unsafe content like anything
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  Speaker 2: discussing method anything glorifying death. Report it together and watch
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  Speaker 2: the memorial pages because remembering a friend is healthy and
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  Speaker 2: romanticizing their death that's risky. So we want to be
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: alongside them as they're going through it. Plus, if there
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: are any problems, you can talk about them in the moment.
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  Speaker 1: So earlier you said that the risk window is actually
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: a lot longer than we would like to think.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Twenty four months.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so what should Elizabeth than any other mum who
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: is concerned about their child be watching for over the
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  Speaker 1: next coming months.
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  Speaker 2: So this is going to sound really really generic and
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  Speaker 2: really general, But first off, we would expect that there
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: may be some grief depending on how close your child was,
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  Speaker 2: and even if they're not close, they may still just
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: grieve the loss and try to comprehend it. So I'd
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: be looking for sadness. I'd be watching out for the
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: questions that they're asking. Maybe there's some sleep issues after
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: you get through that initial stage, I'm watching over the
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: subsequent months for withdrawal from friends, giving away something that's treasured.
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  Speaker 2: That can sometimes be an indication that your child's got
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: some plans, talking about being a burden, big changes in
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: eating and sleeping, in mood, or an ongoing preoccupation with
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  Speaker 2: the student who's died. So they're the main things that
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: i'd be looking for. I just thought of another script
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: as well that I should have mentioned before. Here's another
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  Speaker 2: script that every child needs to hear. If a friend
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  Speaker 2: ever tells you that they're thinking about suicide. That's a
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  Speaker 2: secret that you don't keep. You tell me or another
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  Speaker 2: adult straight away. That's how you show that you love them.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: And I bring that up because everybody knows we talked
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: about on the podcast before. When when we lost my
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: nephew in twenty twenty three. I can't believe it's been
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  Speaker 2: that long already, It's almost years at the age of
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  Speaker 2: twenty to suicide. He told a friend, and I don't
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  Speaker 2: have any malice or ill will towards his friend. His
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: friend did what teenage boys do. He said, I've got you, bro,
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  Speaker 2: I won't tell anyone. Thanks for telling me. He thought
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: that that was enough that he had that confidante and
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: he really needed to tell an adult. He needed to
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: tell a loved one because a week later we lost Logan.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: So to me, that's a vitally important script.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: So understanding that this is a school community challenge, this
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: is something that you can't underestimate the ripple impact that
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: has occurred. What would you be wanting from a school
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: right now?
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: So there's actually pretty good evidence behind school post mentions
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: and in Australia, Headspace school support will help any secondary
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: school after a suicide they'll do that for free. So
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: I would say that Elizabeth can contact or email the
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: school and ask what post mention support is him play.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: That's probably all I can recommend. It's certainly something that
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: the school wants to address in a productive way.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: So resources, let's send parents places to go.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so we'll put all these resources and everything else
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: we've talked about in the podcast in the show notes.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: Kids Helpline one eight hundred fifty five one eight hundred
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: that's for young people five to twenty five, and they'll
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: also support worried parents as well. There is a parent line,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: there's Lifeline thirteen eleven fourteen. There's the Suicide Callback Service
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: one three hundred sixty five nine four sixty seven. There's
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: one three yarn for Aboriginal on Torres Strait Island of
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: Families the chat say parent resources at origin dot org
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: dot au. There's also something that we found helpful in
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: our families stand By. They offer support after suicide for
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: anyone who's bereaved. And if your child was close to
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: the student or you're seeing any of those warning signs,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: I'd say just go to the GP. They're kind of
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: like your front door. They can give you a mental
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: health care fan Headspace School Psychologists links to Everything in
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: the Shoes.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: So to Elizabeth, thank you for trusting us with this
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: tricky question. Clearly you love your daughter, and I think
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: the most important thing to remember is the fact that
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: you're asking means that you're exactly where you need to
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: be right now with your daughter and working through this together.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: Walk towards conversations, not away from them. Ask the direct question,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: stay calm, and keep asking gently for as long as
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: it takes tough one to get through. Today, Kylie, we
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: don't talk about this sort of topic very often, but
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: it matters, and hopefully this has been a health conversation.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is made possible by our team
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: Justin rale on production engineering, mem Hammond's admin and other support.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: We will link to resources in the show notes and today,
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: hug your kids a little tighter