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The Land and the Book - The Battle for Heaven and Earth · WPGM On Demand

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S1: He was the most beautiful of all the angels and
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S1: the most exalted beneath God. Yet at some point he
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S1: determined to be exalted above God. And that's when the
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S1: battle began. What was it like when Lucifer fell? Coming up,
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S1: we'll take a biblical look at the battle for heaven
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S1: and earth. This is the land and the book with
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S1: Old Testament scholar and author doctor Charlie Dyer. I'm John Gager.
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S1: Trust your week's been going well, Charlie.
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S2: I've had a great week, John. Thanks for asking.
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S1: All right. Well, this month marks the third anniversary of
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S1: the October 7th attack on Israel. And these past few
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S1: years have seen a time of profound grief and hardship
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S1: for Israelis and Jewish people around the world. In addition
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S1: to the horrors of October 7th itself, the worldwide rise
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S1: in anti-Semitism we've been seeing has stunned, saddened all those
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S1: who love Israel. And as a response, our friends at
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S1: Life in Messiah have worked on a documentary called Shadows
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S1: of October Israel Under Siege. The film addresses hard questions
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S1: like where was God in the events of October 7th?
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S1: Why is antisemitism rising around the world? And how should
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S1: we move forward? Powerful testimony from survivors. Expert analysis. The
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S1: film investigates the events long term impact and spiritual implications
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S1: of the October 7th, 2023, attack on Israel.
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S2: Yeah, I've watched the film myself, and Shadows of October
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S2: forces viewers to confront the reality of anti-Semitism and its
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S2: impact on the Jewish people following the Hamas attack. You
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S2: experienced the hatred and the heartache, but also the hope
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S2: through the eyes of those who were there. The film
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S2: is currently available on streaming services. For details on how
1:44
S2: you can watch it or arrange a screening for your church,
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S2: visit lifeline.org and click on the Moody Radio button. That's
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S2: life in messiah.org.
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S1: If you're new to the program, this opening segment is
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S1: connected with current events from the Middle East, stories that
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S1: have been unfolding the past few days. One unanticipated outcome
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S1: of the war in the Middle East has been a
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S1: revolution in the nature of warfare itself. From drones to
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S1: robots to artificial intelligence, what impact is all this having
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S1: on countries both in the Middle East and around the world?
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S2: Well, the good news, Jon, is that we're nowhere near
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S2: the droid armies from the Star Wars movies, but the
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S2: current conflicts have greatly accelerated the development and integration of
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S2: drones and robots into modern warfare. Drones have gone from
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S2: mail order cheap quadcopters or, at the other end, expensive,
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S2: remote controlled mini airplanes to mass produced fiber optic attack drones.
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S2: Russia launched over 100,000 drones in a single year against Ukraine,
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S2: and the Israeli Defense Forces are developing a dedicated military
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S2: branch for artificial intelligence and unmanned systems. Drones can loiter
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S2: over an area to provide eyes in the sky, launch
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S2: a missile or conduct its own suicide mission. Countries are
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S2: still trying to work out how to successfully stop drones,
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S2: but aerial drones are followed by autonomous, remotely operated ground
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S2: vehicles that can also perform reconnaissance, haul supplies, evacuate the wounded,
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S2: and even fight alongside humans. Artificial intelligence will help these
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S2: unmanned systems separate combatants from non-combatants and friend from foe
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S2: faster than a human, and they'll be able to plot
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S2: the best way across a battlefield using GPS, AI, and
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S2: up to the minute sensor data. Ukraine is now incorporating
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S2: AI with traditional weapon systems to help shoot down hypersonic
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S2: Russian drones. The impact of these new systems on conflicts
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S2: will continue to grow. Now, on the positive side, ground
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S2: robots could make life safer for those on the front
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S2: lines by allowing operators to control them from a safer
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S2: distance away. But there are dangers. It's impossible to anticipate
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S2: and program a ground robot for every possible eventuality. We
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S2: see the problem with self-driving cars on our relatively safe
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S2: and well-designed streets. What happens when you put an autonomous
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S2: armed vehicle in the chaos of a war zone, or
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S2: hand over life and death decisions to something employing AI?
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S2: The good news right now is that these key systems
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S2: are being debated by rational individuals, who are also working
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S2: to build an appropriate checks and balances to keep the
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S2: drones and droids from running amok. But anyone who's watched
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S2: a video of a self-driving taxi unexpectedly stopping in the
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S2: middle of a road when encountering standing water knows the
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S2: systems are far from perfect. I started with a movie reference,
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S2: so let me end with another from 2001 A Space Odyssey,
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S2: when Hal, the ship's computer, refuses to let Dave the Astronaut,
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S2: back inside. There are a lot of unknowns still facing
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S2: us as we move into this advance in warfare.
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S1: This is the land in the book from Moody Radio
4:45
S1: with our host, Doctor Charlie Dyer. In 1710, Jonathan Swift
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S1: wrote falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it,
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S1: a variation wrongly attributed to either Mark Twain or Winston Churchill.
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S1: Is that a lie can travel halfway around the world
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S1: while the truth is still putting on its shoes? But
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S1: apart from who said it first, you say this reality
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S1: has been proven true multiple times in Israel's war against Hamas.
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S1: What exactly do you mean?
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S2: Well, here are some of the charges that have been
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S2: made against Israel over the past few years that have
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S2: proven to be false. Israel is an apartheid state. Israel
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S2: is guilty of genocide. Israel uses artificial intelligence to select
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S2: targets while ignoring civilian casualties. Israel has deliberately targeted innocent
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S2: journalists in Gaza. Those statements have been repeated so often
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S2: they are accepted by many as true. But Israel has
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S2: carefully debunked each one using hard evidence. The problem is
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S2: that sifting through all the evidence can take months, while
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S2: the damage from the charges has already been made. For example,
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S2: a new academic study concluded that the charges of apartheid
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S2: and genocide are not true. There is racism in Israel
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S2: like in every other country of the world. But that's
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S2: not the same as apartheid, which is enforced racial segregation
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S2: and the 63,000 truckloads of food that Israel sent into Gaza,
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S2: almost £2,000 for every person there weakens the charge that
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S2: Israel attempted to commit genocide in Gaza through food deprivation.
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S2: The charge in the Nazi documentary that Israel used AI
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S2: to select targets while ignoring civilian casualties, was a false
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S2: picture of the military's target planning and strike process. No
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S2: strike was ever planned in which 500 civilians were expected
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S2: to be killed, nor did such a strike ever happen. Finally,
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S2: Israel posted a detailed chart with the names and terrorist
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S2: affiliations of 170 terrorists who were misrepresented as journalists when
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S2: killed by Israel. Their identities were verified using documentation published
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S2: by the terrorist organizations themselves or recovered in Gaza by
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S2: Israeli troops. All these charges are demonstrably false, but it
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S2: took time for the evidence to be compiled. Falsehood flies,
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S2: but eventually the truth does come limping after it. If
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S2: people are still willing to listen.
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S1: The media have been so focused on the Middle East
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S1: and Ukraine that they haven't kept up with events in
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S1: other key areas like Libya. What's been happening there that
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S1: we need to know about, Charlie?
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S2: Well, the two rival governments in Libya continue to spar
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S2: for control over the country and its oil wealth. The
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S2: UN recognized government in western Tripoli is run by the
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S2: Prime Minister, while the rival government in eastern Libya is
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S2: led by the parliament. The Libyan National Army and Field
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S2: Marshal Khalifa Haftar exercised control over the group in the East,
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S2: and his sons hold posts in that government. The West
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S2: and Turkey continue to back the government in Tripoli, while Egypt,
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S2: the UAE and Russia backed the government in eastern Libya. Now,
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S2: back in August, representatives from both sides agreed in principle
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S2: to a UN brokered proposal that would eventually lead to
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S2: a unified government. The mediator gave them one month to
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S2: approve it. The House of Representatives in the East approved
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S2: the agreement, but the High Court of State in the
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S2: West did not. Then, over several days in August, drones
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S2: attacked an oil storage facility in western Libya, destroying a
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S2: tank holding more than a million gallons of gasoline. Several
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S2: people were arrested after the attack and claimed they were
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S2: working for Saddam Haftar, Khalifa Haftar's son. As a result,
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S2: the plan to unify the two factions is in jeopardy.
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S2: It's even possible the Civil War will again resume, threatening
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S2: Libya's oil exports of 1.5 million barrels a day, and
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S2: oil makes up 65% of the country's gross domestic product.
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S2: A unified country, a stable economy and a reliable supply
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S2: of oil. That sounds like a good goal, but it's
8:38
S2: been 15 years since gadhafi was overthrown, and it hasn't
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S2: happened yet.
8:43
S1: Getting eyes to repair themselves by turning old cells back
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S1: into stem cells kind of sounds like something from science fiction, right?
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S1: But Israeli researchers have made a discovery that could one
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S1: day help restore vision for some people. What are the
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S1: details in this eye opening research from Amazing Israel?
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S2: Well, the corneas in our eyes keep themselves clear thanks
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S2: to a ring of limbal stem cells that sit along
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S2: each cornea's outer rim. They keep producing new cells that
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S2: travel inward to replace surface cells. These Israeli researchers discovered
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S2: that when the outer ring of stem cells is disturbed,
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S2: the mature stem cells in the cornea can reverse course
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S2: and become stem cells themselves. In fact, within 40 days,
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S2: the reverted cells were almost indistinguishable from the native stem cells.
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S2: This happens when macrophages, the immune cells that rush to
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S2: an injury, increase signaling molecules that nudge the mature cells
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S2: back into a stem cell state. Now, this continuing research
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S2: shows that it's possible that people who have lost cornea
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S2: stem cells to burns, infections, or disease could possibly be
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S2: treated and be able to have their sight restored. The
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S2: challenge next is to learn how to control that process
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S2: and use it for regenerative medicine. And we can just
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S2: cheer on these researchers at the Technion in Israel for
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S2: what they're trying to accomplish.
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S1: Thank you Charlie. I'll resist the urge to say this
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S1: segment went by in the blink of an eye. I
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S1: just won't even say it. Hey, what was it like
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S1: when Lucifer fell? Coming up, we're going to take a
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S1: biblical look at the battle for heaven and earth. Conversation
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S1: you don't want to miss. It's next here on the land.
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S1: And the book. He was the most beautiful of all
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S1: the angels and the most exalted beneath God. Yet at
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S1: some point he determined to be exalted above God. That's
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S1: when the battle began. What was it like when Lucifer fell?
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S1: How could he have convinced legions of angels, not just
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S1: a few, to follow him? Coming up, the battle for
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S1: heaven and earth. This is the land and the book
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S1: I'm John Gager, welcoming you to segment two. And let's
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S1: say hello to today's guests. First doctor Mark Yarbrough. Mark
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S1: is president of Dallas Theological Seminary and a professor in
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S1: the Bible Exposition department. He's the author of several books
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S1: and speaks extensively around the world. Doctor Yarbrough also leads
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S1: tours in Israel, Egypt, Turkey, Greece, Scotland and Germany. It's
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S1: a pleasure to welcome you back to the land on
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S1: the bookmark.
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S3: Always a joy to be with you always.
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S1: Hey, let's welcome Jerry B Jenkins, author of more than
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S1: 200 books, with sales of more than 73 million copies.
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S1: He wrote the Left Behind series and novels to accompany
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S1: the chosen TV series created by his son, Dallas Jenkins. Jerry's,
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S1: a moody grad, served on the moody board for 18 years,
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S1: seven of those as chairman. He teaches writing online to
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S1: the Jerry Jenkins Writers Guild. He's kind and generous as
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S1: a friend, but don't ever try to compete with him.
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S1: Solving Wheel of Fortune puzzles. He destroyed me last time
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S1: we were together. Good to have you back on the program, Jerry.
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S4: Always great to be with you, John. Thanks.
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S1: The two of you guys have done something rather daring.
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S1: You have tried to envision what might have taken place
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S1: in the heavens before there was earth. Let me start
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S1: with you, Mark. Talk to the skeptic who says, hey,
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S1: aren't you guys just going a little too far with
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S1: that sanctified imagination of yours? Are we even on safe
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S1: ground with such conjecture?
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S3: Well, I'll tell you what. That's a great question. We
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S3: are asked that a lot, and both Jerry and I
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S3: obviously firmly hold to the fact that the Bible is
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S3: the Word of God, the inspired, inerrant, authoritative word of
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S3: God that God has spoken. And God chose to use
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S3: some language, style of language, narrative literature, which invites the
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S3: reader into the story. We're supposed to be there in
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S3: the Garden of Eden. We're supposed to watch creation as
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S3: everything unfolded. So there is an invitation, it seems, in
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S3: the Scripture itself to imagine what it must have been like.
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S3: And that's all we're doing. So we stick to the
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S3: storyline in regard to what God has said and as
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S3: it relates to other areas, we open up and say,
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S3: would it have been something? Could it have been something
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S3: like this?
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S1: Yeah, and I love what you've done. Let me say
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S1: that at the outset. I found the book at all times,
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S1: not only respectful but thoroughly biblical. And Jerry, you've written
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S1: so many books, most of them fiction. What was the
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S1: biggest challenge for you in crafting this story?
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S4: Well, I think that is the biggest challenge is, is
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S4: staying true to the scripture, which, you know, I count
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S4: on Mark for that. I've never been, you know, mistaken
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S4: for a theologian or a scholar. I'm just a storyteller.
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S4: And so this was Mark's idea. He, he creates the
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S4: bones of it. And, and then I get it and
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S4: just try to turn it into novel form. And you're right,
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S4: people do ask all the time, are you adding to
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S4: or taking away from, you know, scripture? And, you know,
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S4: we believe that that admonition is for the gospel. You
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S4: don't take away or add to anything from the gospel
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S4: as far as speculating on what the Bible says and
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S4: how it might have all taken place. I think pastors
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S4: do this every week in the pulpit. They say, imagine
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S4: yourself there. Can you see somebody you know at the
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S4: edge of the crowd thinking this or wondering this or
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S4: saying this? And I think that's all we're doing. We're
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S4: doing that in written form. And that's the challenge, but
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S4: it's also the fun of it.
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S1: Did you ever wonder what might have taken place in
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S1: the heavens before the earth was created? That's what we're
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S1: grappling with today through the creativity of Jerry Jenkins and
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S1: Mark Yarbrough, who have written The Battle for Heaven and earth.
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S1: You know, it's easy to envision the angelic realm shaken
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S1: to the core when Lucifer, the most beautiful and exalted
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S1: of all questions the authority of God Himself. What begins
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S1: as subtle pride soon ignites into open rebellion. Mark, that
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S1: sounds to me like lesson one from this story. Pride
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S1: is so deadly because it takes us to places we
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S1: never dared. We dreamed we'd go. Your thoughts?
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S3: Yeah, you're exactly right. And you know, we take this
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S3: right out of scripture. It's not like we're making this up.
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S3: There's two very important passages that talk about this area
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S3: of the fall of Satan in Isaiah chapter 14, Ezekiel
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S3: chapter 28. And the word that you used, pride is
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S3: so important. It says this. It is in reference specifically
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S3: to the king of tyre, but it is implying the
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S3: force behind this king of tyre. And in reference to Satan,
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S3: it says, in the pride of your heart you said,
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S3: I am a God. I sit on the throne of
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S3: a God in the heart of the seas. And later
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S3: the Lord speaking says, you were the model of perfection,
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S3: full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden,
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S3: the garden of God. And so this issue of pride
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S3: is right there. And that's exactly what caused the fall. Lucifer.
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S3: Satan began to look at himself and incredible beauty that
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S3: God had made. And he began to think I should
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S3: be worshiped just like God. And what we see in
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S3: Lucifer is ultimately what he longs to see in those
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S3: that he leads astray. He wants the area of pride
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S3: to be prevalent in their lives, as well as opposed
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S3: to worshiping God. MM.
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S1: Let me read a quick excerpt from the book. An
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S1: angel here is commenting. Lucifer had rebelled. Part of heaven
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S1: was in an uproar. The Almighty's right to rule had
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S1: been challenged. However, the Almighty still reigns and I find
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S1: great comfort in that jury. My reaction is, I find
16:27
S1: great comfort in that too. To me, that's an essential
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S1: takeaway from this book. I wasn't necessarily expecting comfort from
16:33
S1: this novel, but I certainly found it. What about you?
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S1: Was that your reaction too?
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S4: Well, it was, and I was surprised at how much
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S4: I could identify with the angels. That sounds really strange.
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S4: I think sometimes when we take a non theological look
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S4: at the angels, we think they're just these heavenly beings.
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S4: Maybe they have halos, they fly around. We're seeing that
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S4: angels have no free will. They have the ability to choose.
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S4: And I think this comes as a surprise to Michael
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S4: and to Gabriel and to their friend. We invent a
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S4: friend for them that they bounce things off of. And
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S4: I found myself actually identifying with them, saying, having questions
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S4: for God, saying you knew this was coming. You knew
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S4: that Lucifer would do this and become Satan, and yet
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S4: you allowed it. What's the purpose for that? And then
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S4: to hear God explain, a lot of this will will
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S4: come into clarity later. But he still reigns. And that's
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S4: the whole thing. I mean, I think what Mark gave
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S4: me was this whole setup that this is really a
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S4: challenge to who gets to rule heaven and eventually earth
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S4: as well. And the angels have the same questions we do.
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S4: So we want readers to come away with this saying
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S4: they're asking the same questions I am, and I'm looking
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S4: forward to the answers.
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S1: It was all peace and perfection until the most beautiful
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S1: and exalted angel of them all rebelled. Ultimately, it led
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S1: to the battle for heaven and earth. That's the book
17:57
S1: co-written by Jerry Jenkins and Mark Yarbrough. They join us
18:00
S1: today on the land and the book. And as we know,
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S1: Lucifer didn't wage war alone. He took legions with him. Mark,
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S1: how could that many angels be either that dissatisfied or
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S1: that gullible?
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S3: Well, we don't ultimately know, but we know it happened.
18:16
S3: Scripture references that up to a third of the heavenly
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S3: host rebelled with him. So what we imagined is that
18:25
S3: there was a process, a grooming process, if you will,
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S3: of this dissatisfaction that was taking place within Lucifer's own heart. Right.
18:34
S3: And as he began to talk with others. In that
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S3: big moment when he rebelled, they chose to go with him. Which,
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S3: by the way, in the novel, it was a shock
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S3: to the rest of the angels. How could this type
18:45
S3: of discord have occurred? But once it happens, the heavenly
18:50
S3: battle was on.
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S1: Jerry, how did you establish the limits of contemporary dialogue
18:55
S1: used in the book? There's a scene in which one
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S1: angel threatens another who says, bring it. There's got to
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S1: be a balance between sounding like Shakespeare versus the latest
19:04
S1: Marvel superhero movie. What's your what's your grid here?
19:08
S4: That's a challenge for any kind of biblical writing. I
19:12
S4: faced the same thing when I'm writing novels to go
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S4: along with The chosen. You know, sometimes people will criticize
19:18
S4: and say, you know, they wouldn't have used the phrase
19:20
S4: bring it back then. And we say, well, they wouldn't
19:23
S4: have used the word the either. You know, so they
19:25
S4: must have had some corresponding phrase that they use. So
19:31
S4: we try not to be too anachronistic where it sounds like,
19:34
S4: you know, hipsters talking today, but they would have had
19:38
S4: ways to express themselves the way we do. And so
19:41
S4: that's what we go for, sort of that middle ground.
19:43
S1: Yeah. Well, not that my vote counts, but I think
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S1: you did a great job. I want to read another excerpt.
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S1: Lucifer stepped to the edge of the golden rock. I
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S1: am Lucifer. Feel my pain. I will rule. And to
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S1: anyone who doubts me. You will be among the damage.
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S1: When I establish my own dominion over the ruins of heaven. Boy,
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S1: that line just sent shivers down my spine as I
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S1: read it. Mark, how do you react?
20:07
S3: Well, I tell you what, one of the things that
20:09
S3: Jerry and I talked about all the time, John, was
20:11
S3: we actually think we understand Lucifer too well. Seriously. I mean,
20:16
S3: when we were doing some of the writing from his
20:17
S3: point of view, I think that heart of evil, that bitterness,
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S3: you know, we've all been touched by it. Unfortunately, as sinners,
20:26
S3: we we all have experienced some of that and have
20:31
S3: been led astray by that. And so as we would
20:34
S3: write from his point of view, I mean, he is
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S3: the epitome of wickedness and evil. He's where it came from.
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S3: And so we wanted him to just be as evil
20:42
S3: as Scripture itself has him be. So that issue of
20:46
S3: pride that you already talked about, I mean, he just
20:48
S3: stood up there and he just exalts himself. Uh, he
20:52
S3: wants himself to be worshiped. And anybody that's going to
20:55
S3: stand in his way, he's just going to plow over him.
20:58
S3: And in the book, he does that.
20:59
S4: And if I can jump in there, um, you know,
21:02
S4: sometimes we read these passages or we create these passages
21:05
S4: and we might think, I would never be that bold.
21:08
S4: And then I think of times in my life where
21:10
S4: I say, you know, if I were God, I would
21:12
S4: have done it this way. And I think, do you
21:15
S4: hear what you just said? You're basically sounding like Lucifer.
21:19
S4: If I were God, I would do it this way.
21:21
S4: Let me let me take charge here. And so we
21:24
S4: can be just as prideful as he for sure.
21:26
S1: For me, one of the most satisfying sections is the
21:29
S1: extended conversations and scenes that take place with Adam and Eve.
21:33
S1: I feel like it lasts. Somebody has helped me get
21:36
S1: to know them as they might have been. Those are
21:38
S1: just precious. Um. I was also struck by the fact
21:41
S1: that the serpent in the story might have had a
21:44
S1: previous relationship with Adam and Eve. All of which makes
21:47
S1: the choice to eat that forbidden fruit all that much
21:49
S1: more agonizing. Mark, was it your intent to make us
21:52
S1: wrestle with this scene?
21:54
S3: Oh, it sure was. And that excites me to hear
21:57
S3: you say that. And I really mean that because we
22:00
S3: really wanted. Look, Adam and Eve to be as human.
22:03
S3: I'm going to phrase it that way, right? I think
22:05
S3: sometimes we forget there were people in the Garden of Eden.
22:08
S3: They had this incredible freedom. And so what would have
22:12
S3: led to this rebellion? You know, for them to not
22:15
S3: adhere to God's command. And so we tried to establish
22:19
S3: this little developing, ongoing relationship. How would Lucifer have, you know,
22:25
S3: subtly started bringing areas into the dialogue that would have
22:30
S3: made them pause and think about moving away from God's Word.
22:35
S3: And so we brought certain issues, as you know, in
22:38
S3: the book, into play that would have had an emotional
22:41
S3: draw to them. And one of the things that I
22:43
S3: love specifically, there's a dialogue that takes place between Lucifer
22:48
S3: and SA, right? His general and he's like, the first
22:52
S3: thing we've got to do is we need to divide
22:55
S3: the husband and wife. We need to separate them and
22:58
S3: get one of them thinking separately from the other so
23:01
S3: that there can be a division there. I love that
23:04
S3: little subtle play in there and how true that is
23:07
S3: of even the marriage relationship today, for sure.
23:10
S1: As I read the book, I came away with a
23:12
S1: strong sense of the father heart of God. Clearly, he's
23:16
S1: shown as omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. But we also see his
23:20
S1: reluctance to sever relationships, to judge harshly. Jerry, your thoughts?
23:25
S4: Yeah, I find that I can really identify with both
23:28
S4: Adam and Eve. And I'm thinking, you know, when I
23:31
S4: see people in general life today who seem to have
23:34
S4: it all, maybe they're movie stars or they're they're rich
23:37
S4: musicians or something, and then they turn to drugs or
23:40
S4: alcohol or something and ruin it. And I, and I,
23:43
S4: I like to think I wouldn't do that. I would
23:45
S4: steward all those resources and really be great at it
23:48
S4: when I know the truth. If I'm in that garden,
23:51
S4: I'm eating that fruit before Eve is I mean, I'm
23:54
S4: going over there saying I can at least smell it.
23:56
S4: I can at least lick the the cover of it,
23:58
S4: can't I? And before you know it, I'm chowing down
24:01
S4: on that. But I think that we can identify with
24:05
S4: Adam and Eve in their respect and love and admiration
24:09
S4: for God, and then how they feel when they've severed
24:13
S4: that relationship. It's devastating. It's heartbreaking.
24:15
S1: Yeah. The battle for heaven and earth, you will come
24:19
S1: away challenged, stretched, and more in love with God than ever.
24:23
S1: I have to recommend it. It's just a great read.
24:25
S1: Check it out. A link at our website. The land
24:28
S1: and the book dot o g Mark. I understand there's
24:31
S1: some interesting companion features that we need to be aware
24:34
S1: of with the release of this book.
24:35
S3: You bet. Yeah. On the website The Battle for Heaven
24:38
S3: and earth book.com, there's going to be a whole bunch
24:41
S3: of information. Bible studies for small groups for semester long
24:46
S3: type classes. In the back of the novel, there's a
24:49
S3: QR code that leads you to this resource page. On
24:52
S3: the website, there's teaching videos. Jerry and I have already
24:55
S3: recorded those. They're going to be available hitting a a
24:58
S3: sundry of topics. There actually are about 21 different videos
25:02
S3: that we've recorded teaching videos of why we wrote it
25:04
S3: the way we did. I explained biblical passages in the
25:08
S3: novel itself. As you saw, there are ten songs that
25:12
S3: have been recorded. Their lyrics are actually in the novel.
25:16
S3: You'll be able to get those songs and to hear
25:19
S3: those songs. They've been recorded by my artist friends that came.
25:23
S3: In fact, I just got back from Nashville and those
25:26
S3: songs are highly produced. So all of this material, we're
25:29
S3: trying to build an ecosystem that, by God's grace, is
25:32
S3: going to move to other novels. We hope to do
25:35
S3: the entire Bible this way and to tell the greatest
25:38
S3: story ever told, which is the story of Scripture.
25:41
S1: Thanks so much for your time, guys.
25:43
S3: Sure. Appreciate it.
25:44
S4: Thanks, John.
25:45
S1: All right. Mark Yarbrough and Jerry Jenkins today on the
25:47
S1: land in the book. Check out the battle for Heaven
25:49
S1: and earth. And stick with us as we take a
25:51
S1: fresh look at your Bible questions next. On the land
25:54
S1: and the book. Not every question we have about the
26:09
S1: Bible has an answer this side of heaven, but many,
26:12
S1: if not most, really do. And exploring those questions, your
26:16
S1: questions is what this next segment is all about. Hey,
26:19
S1: welcome back to the land and the book from Moody Radio.
26:22
S1: I'm John Gieger. Always very excited to sit down with
26:25
S1: a very enthusiastic doctor, Gerald Peterman. How's your day going?
26:29
S5: Oh, so happy to be here.
26:30
S1: Yeah, and it shows too. Good, good. Ladies and gentlemen,
26:33
S1: a bright orange shirt, a bright, shiny countenance. He's ready
26:37
S1: to tackle just about anything you can throw his way.
26:39
S1: We're going to let him have a shot at that.
26:41
S1: In a special edition of the Q and A segment
26:43
S1: we're calling wrestling with Romans. All questions today focused on
26:48
S1: the book of Romans, specifically chapter eight. First, though, a
26:51
S1: quick thought. This month marks the third anniversary of the
26:54
S1: October 7th attack on Israel. These past few years have
26:57
S1: been a time of profound grief and hardship for Israelis
27:01
S1: and for Jewish people around the world. In addition to
27:04
S1: the horrors of October 7th itself, the worldwide rise in
27:07
S1: anti-Semitism has stunned and saddened all those who love Israel. Well,
27:13
S1: as a response, our friends at Life in Messiah have
27:15
S1: been working on a documentary called Shadows of October Israel
27:19
S1: Under Siege. The film addresses the hard questions of where
27:23
S1: was God in the events of October 7th. Why is
27:26
S1: antisemitism rising around the world and how should we move forward?
27:31
S1: Through powerful testimony from survivors alongside expert analysis. Shadows of
27:36
S1: October investigates the events long term impact and spiritual implications
27:42
S1: of the October 7th, 2023, attack on Israel.
27:45
S2: Yeah, I've watched the film myself, John and Shadows of
27:47
S2: October forces viewers to confront the reality of anti-Semitism and
27:52
S2: its impact on the Jewish people following the Hamas attack
27:55
S2: on October 7th. You experienced the hatred, the heartache, and
27:59
S2: the hope through the eyes of those who were there.
28:02
S2: This film is currently available on streaming services. For details
28:06
S2: on how you can watch the film or arrange a
28:08
S2: screening for your church, visit Life in messiah.org and click
28:12
S2: on the Moody radio button. That's Life in messiah.org.
28:17
S1: All right. Thank you, Charlie. Let's get back to our
28:19
S1: segments Focus Bible questions and answers today. Those questions all
28:23
S1: focused on the eighth chapter of Romans. Let's dig in.
28:27
S1: Verse 12 says, so then, brothers and sisters, meaning he's
28:30
S1: writing to believers. But the next verse says, if you
28:33
S1: are living according to the flesh, you must die. Now
28:36
S1: if the audience for this verse is born again, folks,
28:39
S1: what does that statement mean? If you are living according
28:41
S1: to the flesh, you must die. Wouldn't you describe, for example, Jerry,
28:44
S1: my sinful moments as living according to the flesh?
28:48
S5: Mhm. Good question. Uh, Romans has Christians as its audience. Yes.
28:52
S5: Paul says in Romans one, I'm writing to saints in Rome.
28:56
S5: That is, those who are born again. He calls them
28:58
S5: brothers and sisters. But no, I wouldn't take a sinful
29:04
S5: moment as living according to the flesh. In Romans eight,
29:07
S5: Paul talks about two lifestyles, if you will, living according
29:11
S5: to the flesh and living according to the spirit. Those
29:13
S5: are characteristics of the life. No person who lives according
29:17
S5: to the flesh is evil all the time, and no
29:20
S5: one who walks by the spirit does it perfectly all
29:21
S5: the time. So a moment of loss is not walking
29:26
S5: according to the flesh. Now, why does he say, if
29:29
S5: you live according to the flesh, you will die? Because
29:31
S5: if living according to the flesh is the characteristic of
29:34
S5: your life, you don't know God. And what's the end
29:38
S5: of that separation from God forever?
29:41
S1: Okay, let's go on. I'm assuming Paul's phrase, those who
29:45
S1: are in the spirit is equivalent to saying those who
29:48
S1: are born again. If that's true, what are we to
29:50
S1: make of verse five in Romans eight that claims those
29:53
S1: who are according to the flesh set their minds on
29:56
S1: the things of the flesh. To be honest, I have
29:58
S1: to confess, Jerry, my mind is sometimes set on the
30:01
S1: things of the flesh. What are we to make of
30:03
S1: all this?
30:04
S5: Another really good question. Um. I understand why translations go
30:09
S5: with mind set on the ones who have their mind
30:12
S5: set on the flesh, the ones who have their minds
30:14
S5: set on the spirit. I would translate that differently. Let's
30:17
S5: think about what we mean when we say the mind
30:20
S5: set on the flesh. We mean the mind is in
30:23
S5: some independent third position. And you can just put it
30:26
S5: on the flesh and they be independent and you just
30:29
S5: put it on the spirit. No, that's not where Paul's going.
30:31
S5: He's talking about two characteristic mindsets. The mindset on the
30:36
S5: spirit is the Christian's mindset. The mindset on the flesh
30:39
S5: is the non-Christians mindset. So again, a sometimes does not
30:46
S5: mark a lifestyle. So I would talk to this listener
30:49
S5: and say, confess the sometimes, but then believe that God
30:52
S5: is working in you. Now, sometimes it's not an exception
30:56
S5: to being a Christian.
30:57
S1: We're wrestling with Romans today on the land and the
31:00
S1: book Romans chapter eight. Doctor Gerald Peterman of the Moody
31:03
S1: Faculty in the chair. As always, answering our questions. By
31:06
S1: the way, if you happen to have a question of
31:08
S1: your own, you're welcome to be part of this dialogue.
31:11
S1: Email us at the land and the book@moody.edu. The land
31:17
S1: and the At moody.edu. Back to Romans eight, verse six.
31:22
S1: What is the meaning of the phrase for the mind
31:25
S1: set on the flesh is death, physical death, spiritual death?
31:29
S5: Let's go back to Genesis. Shall we go back to
31:31
S5: Genesis three? Genesis two. Actually, the command comes from God.
31:36
S5: Don't eat from the tree in the midst of the garden.
31:38
S5: The day you eat of it, you will die. We
31:40
S5: keep reading what happens? They eat and then what? They
31:45
S5: die at least three different ways. They are ashamed of
31:48
S5: who they are, even though they are gloriously made in
31:51
S5: God's image. They're blaming each other, right? So now they're
31:55
S5: separated from each other, and then God cast them out.
31:59
S5: So when he casts them out, that separation from God,
32:01
S5: that is death, the mindset of the flesh, that is
32:06
S5: the way the flesh thinks, the way the flesh thinks
32:09
S5: is separation from God. That is the mindset of the
32:13
S5: flesh is death. It's like living life on earth, dead
32:17
S5: to God and spiritual things. In contrast, life in the
32:21
S5: spirit is truly life with God. Paul calls it peace
32:25
S5: and joy that is living in the presence of God.
32:29
S5: And the third death they experience hundreds of years later,
32:32
S5: they die physically.
32:34
S1: Is it possible for someone who is born again to
32:36
S1: be hostile toward God? Romans eight, verse seven says, the
32:40
S1: mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God. So
32:43
S1: what about those moments again, when my motives and actions
32:45
S1: and words are set on my flesh? AM I not
32:48
S1: in those moments hostile toward God?
32:50
S5: Oh, well, perhaps at that moment there is something you
32:54
S5: might call hostility. But I don't think that's Paul's primary consideration.
32:58
S5: I think his primary consideration is the person who lives
33:02
S5: according to the flesh. That perspective is hostility. But do
33:07
S5: we sometimes, in a moment of weakness, right. Turn away,
33:11
S5: do something incredibly stupid? I hope I'm not the only one.
33:14
S5: And that's certainly a time, then, to confess how we
33:18
S5: have hurt God or hurt ourselves or hurt other people.
33:22
S5: But what I wouldn't want us to do is think
33:24
S5: I am hostile and then live our life like that. Right.
33:27
S5: I'd say confess it and move on.
33:29
S1: Romans 817 almost seems to imply suffering as a prerequisite
33:34
S1: for being an heir of God. It says if children,
33:37
S1: heirs also heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ,
33:40
S1: if indeed we suffer with him, so that we may
33:44
S1: also be glorified with him. Please explain.
33:46
S5: Yes, many have found this verse challenging. Let me back
33:49
S5: up for just a moment and talk about conditional statements
33:53
S5: like when we make an if then statement. This is
33:57
S5: commonly called a conditional statement. Let me give you one.
34:00
S5: I get on the ladder that's in my garage. If
34:02
S5: I get on my ladder, I feel nervous. Why is that?
34:06
S5: Because I have an irrational fear of heights. And this
34:09
S5: is true. And you can see how it's cause and effect.
34:13
S5: If I get on the ladder cause effect, I feel nervous,
34:16
S5: but there are other ways of speaking using. If. Then.
34:19
S5: How about this? If you are listening to our program,
34:22
S5: you turned on your radio. Mhm. But wait, listening to
34:25
S5: the program doesn't cause you to turn on the radio.
34:28
S5: But listening the program lets us know that you did.
34:31
S5: So that's another condition, which I would call evidence. You're listening. Inference.
34:36
S5: You turned it on. That's where Paul is going in
34:39
S5: Romans eight. That is, if we suffer with Christ, that is,
34:43
S5: we obey him. Others reject us. Others persecute us. Others
34:47
S5: slander us. If we suffer with Christ, then what do
34:50
S5: we demonstrate? We demonstrate that we belong to him. We
34:54
S5: demonstrate that we are his. So this is not an
34:57
S5: if then conditional, right? It's an evidence inference conditional. Let
35:02
S5: me give you one more. Jesus says. John 15, you
35:07
S5: are my friends if you do what I command you. Yeah.
35:11
S5: This certainly does not mean if you obey my commands
35:14
S5: long enough, you become my friend. No, no, no. But
35:17
S5: obeying my commands demonstrates that you are my friend. It's
35:21
S5: a very different kind of conditional.
35:22
S6: All right.
35:23
S1: Got time for one more? We're going to go to
35:25
S1: verse 38 of Romans eight. How would you define the
35:27
S1: word powers used there? How was that different than principalities
35:32
S1: used earlier in that verse?
35:34
S5: Oh, yes. Really good. Let's talk about principalities. Paul's term
35:37
S5: is arch. This refers to some kind of ruler or
35:40
S5: some kind of authority. I think in this context, it's
35:43
S5: an evil spiritual being. See Ephesians 612. See Colossians 215,
35:50
S5: and even the NIV in here in Romans translates this term,
35:53
S5: not principalities, but demons. Now, Paul's term for powers comes
35:58
S5: from the Greek word dunamis, which very often in the
36:00
S5: New Testament means some sort of miracle. Although again, here
36:04
S5: I think the primary reference is to some evil spiritual
36:08
S5: beings who might threaten us. But thanks be to God,
36:11
S5: they do not. And that same word appears with that
36:15
S5: sense in first Peter 322. First Corinthians 1524.
36:19
S1: Today on the land in the book, we've been wrestling
36:22
S1: with Romans. But what are you wrestling with? What passage
36:25
S1: has you puzzled? We would sure welcome your question at
36:28
S1: the land and the book@moody.edu. Doctor Gerald Peterman will get
36:33
S1: you an answer in just a few days. The land
36:35
S1: and the book@moody.edu. Charlie Dyer is back with his devotional next.
36:54
S1: We do appreciate your company here at the land and
36:56
S1: the book. And by the way, you ever got a
36:58
S1: thought you want to share with us? Maybe an idea,
37:01
S1: perhaps a Bible question you'd like answered. You do it
37:04
S1: all with one simple email address. It's the land and
37:07
S1: the book@moody.edu. The land and the book@moody.edu. It's going to
37:15
S1: take a listen to a great devotional from Charlie Dyer.
37:18
S1: After we take in this Holy Land experience, check out
37:20
S1: this testimony from somebody who's traveled to the Holy Land.
37:27
S7: I've had the privilege of being in the Holy Land
37:31
S7: for a week now, and I think the thing that
37:33
S7: has impressed me most is the extraordinary history of this
37:38
S7: country and the diversity that exists as a result of
37:44
S7: that history is probably the most complex situation that I
37:49
S7: have ever witnessed or experienced in my now 65 plus years.
37:56
S8: Everything was wonderful about this trip. Such a treat to
37:59
S8: have a small group of people to walk the steps
38:01
S8: of Jesus, especially at the Sea of Galilee. It was
38:06
S8: such a treat to see the distances between the spots
38:11
S8: where we read in Scripture. Jesus walked and talked and
38:14
S8: lived his life affecting people. I wanted to know how
38:18
S8: far apart things were. How big was the Sea of Galilee?
38:22
S8: How far away were the towns where he walked? Everything
38:26
S8: was just so exciting to see the places and the
38:29
S8: spots where Jesus walked and where we learned scripture. Seeing
38:33
S8: it through our tour guide, Charlie Dyer's eyes brought little
38:37
S8: phrases in the word to life.
38:41
S1: All right, Charlie, I'm looking forward to a visit with
38:43
S1: Paul and some thoughts on prayer. We'll let you have
38:46
S1: at it.
38:47
S2: Oh. Thanks, John. Yeah. We're coming to the third and
38:49
S2: final message in this three part series that I titled
38:52
S2: prayers of the Bible. A look at some of the
38:54
S2: unique prayers found in God's Word. And today's study takes
38:57
S2: us from Jesus's words on the Mount of Beatitudes to Rome,
39:01
S2: the center of the world at the time of the
39:03
S2: New Testament. But watch where you're walking. Rome's a pretty
39:07
S2: up to date city when it comes to running water
39:09
S2: and a sewer system. But all the horses, oxen and
39:13
S2: donkeys traveling the streets still leave behind surprises for distracted pedestrians.
39:18
S2: And occasionally people throw empty chamber pots out their windows
39:22
S2: right onto the street. Well, we made it all the
39:25
S2: way to our destination. This ordinary looking house holds a
39:29
S2: very extraordinary prayer warrior. We can go right on in
39:33
S2: because I know he's home. You might say he's homebound,
39:36
S2: but it's not by choice. He's under house arrest, shackled
39:40
S2: to a Roman soldier. Hear those clanking chains. Oh! That's him.
39:44
S2: So let's go in and meet the Apostle Paul. The
39:47
S2: room is rather plain, but very functional. A writing table
39:50
S2: sits beside a window that opens to an inner courtyard.
39:54
S2: At the desk sits a young man with a papyrus
39:56
S2: scroll spread out before him. He's writing furiously, and several
40:00
S2: columns of the scroll are already filled. Off to his
40:04
S2: right stands the Apostle Paul, with a long chain stretching
40:07
S2: out behind. As he walks around, it scrapes along the floor.
40:11
S2: The other end of the chain is fastened to a
40:13
S2: Roman soldier sitting on a cot. The soldier rises as
40:17
S2: we enter his hand, instinctively reaching for the hilt of
40:20
S2: his sword. But after sizing us up and deciding we're
40:23
S2: not a threat to him or his prisoner, his hand
40:27
S2: returns to his side and he sits back down. His
40:29
S2: sudden movement did cause Paul to stop speaking and turn
40:32
S2: our way. Oh, my friends, welcome. Shalom. Thank you for coming.
40:37
S2: What brings you to my room, Paul? We're here to
40:40
S2: talk with you about prayer. We know you're a man
40:43
S2: of prayer, and we're hoping that you could share with
40:45
S2: us some of the lessons you've learned on prayer. Indeed
40:49
S2: I can, and you've come at just the right moment.
40:52
S2: I just recorded my prayer for the church at Ephesus.
40:55
S2: Let me share what I wrote. Paul bends down to
40:58
S2: look at the words the young man has written on
41:00
S2: the scroll. Let's see. Ah, here's the section I wanted
41:05
S2: the church to know that I'm constantly praying for them.
41:08
S2: And as I pray, I'm thanking God for the faith
41:10
S2: they have in Jesus and the love they show for
41:13
S2: each other. Love God and love your neighbor. Jesus told
41:17
S2: us that was the essence of all God's commands, and
41:20
S2: I wanted this church to know that my prayer for
41:22
S2: them begins with my being thankful for all God is
41:25
S2: doing in their lives. I always start my prayers thanking
41:29
S2: God for what he's doing, but then I usually follow
41:31
S2: with some very specific requests. Here's what I've been praying
41:35
S2: for for this church. I'm asking God to give them
41:38
S2: a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge
41:41
S2: of him, and that the eyes of their heart may
41:44
S2: be enlightened. I realize my words might sound strange. Not
41:48
S2: the kind of thing you might normally pray, but what
41:50
S2: I'm asking God to do is to give them the
41:53
S2: ability to know him more intimately. To give them spiritual
41:57
S2: insight into who he is and what he's like. You see,
42:01
S2: the more deeply you know God, the more fully you
42:04
S2: will understand life. But I'm not done with my prayer.
42:07
S2: I want them to know God. But I'm asking this
42:10
S2: for a very specific reason. In fact, I have three reasons.
42:14
S2: I want them to know God more intimately. See the
42:16
S2: next two words right here. Istar. I think in your
42:21
S2: language you would translate that in order that you might
42:24
S2: skip over that small phrase, but don't. That's the purpose
42:27
S2: for why I'm praying that they come to know God.
42:31
S2: And if you look carefully at what my friend here
42:33
S2: just wrote down, you can see these three reasons. First,
42:37
S2: I want them to become intimately familiar with God so
42:40
S2: they can know the hope of his calling. Hope isn't
42:43
S2: just wishful thinking that something will happen. It's a confident expectation.
42:49
S2: The more they come to know God, the more they'll
42:51
S2: realize that he will finish the work he started in
42:54
S2: their lives. God doesn't abandon any of his children. There
42:58
S2: are no orphans in his family. The second reason I
43:01
S2: want them to know God more intimately is so they
43:04
S2: can realize the riches of the glory of his inheritance
43:07
S2: in the saints. I'm not talking about our inheritance in God,
43:12
S2: but about his inheritance in us. We are valuable to him.
43:17
S2: You are a child of the king, and the king
43:19
S2: takes great delight in all his children. And finally, my
43:23
S2: prayer is that these dear people will come to know
43:26
S2: God more intimately, so they can experience the surpassing greatness
43:30
S2: of his power toward us who believe. Too many people
43:33
S2: go through life overwhelmed by big problems because their view
43:37
S2: of God is too small. When you realize the awesome
43:40
S2: power of God, it puts every one of life's problems
43:44
S2: in perspective. I had to pile up every word I
43:47
S2: know just to begin to explain the greatness of God's power.
43:51
S2: I see that word you translate as surpassing greatness. It's superbolan.
43:56
S2: You get the word hyperbole from it. Imagine how powerful
43:59
S2: you think the God of the universe really is, and
44:02
S2: then realize that God is even greater than that. How
44:05
S2: great is he? He raised his Son from the dead
44:08
S2: and placed the entire universe under his authority. Paul stops
44:13
S2: and looks deeply into our eyes, my friend. Too many
44:18
S2: people make small prayers to a small God. They ask
44:22
S2: for trinkets and baubles as they go through life spiritually impoverished.
44:28
S2: So my prayer for all of us is that God
44:30
S2: will give us wisdom and insight into his character. To
44:34
S2: come to a place where we deeply and intimately know him,
44:38
S2: to realize how much he loves us, how precious we
44:42
S2: are to him, and how great the power is that
44:44
S2: he has made available to us as his children. That's
44:48
S2: my focus in prayer, as we thank Paul for his
44:53
S2: time and turn to leave. He shouts one last word
44:56
S2: of encouragement. Remember, the bigger your understanding of God, The
45:02
S2: smaller your problems and his words help us put the
45:06
S2: focus of our prayers into a new perspective.
45:09
S1: Thank you Charlie. You know, for many, many people, this
45:12
S1: fourth and final segment is their favorite. And a lot
45:15
S1: of times it's helpful for me at least, to hear
45:16
S1: it all again. The good news is you can hear
45:18
S1: not just this devotional, but the entire program at our website,
45:22
S1: The Land and thebook.org, the land and the book.org, which
45:28
S1: does take me to a quick plug for our podcast, Charlie.
45:31
S1: We talk about it a lot. But an amazing amount
45:34
S1: of people have yet to take advantage of this podcast.
45:36
S1: Talk about its impact, its ease, and where people can
45:39
S1: get it.
45:40
S2: You know, I think the word ease there is exactly
45:42
S2: the one. Rather than having to be at a certain
45:45
S2: spot at a certain time to hear the program, they
45:48
S2: can access it anytime when it fits their schedule or
45:51
S2: if they have some extra minutes and just want to
45:54
S2: listen to the devotional again or the current events again,
45:57
S2: they can listen to that segment. It provides that level
46:01
S2: of access and ease right at their fingertips, at their
46:05
S2: computer or on their smartphone.
46:07
S1: All right. And you'll find that podcast at our website again,
46:09
S1: the land and the book.org, the land and the book.org,
46:15
S1: where we've always got posted information about our guests past,
46:17
S1: present and future and all kinds of other good stuff
46:20
S1: as well. The land and the book.org. If you've got
46:25
S1: a Bible question you want to get to us have
46:27
S1: answered on this program. And by the way, you also
46:29
S1: get a personal email back with that answer. And don't
46:32
S1: hesitate to email us at the land and the book@moody.edu,
46:38
S1: the land and the book@moody.edu. It's been a full program,
46:43
S1: as always, and we say thanks to our host, Doctor
46:46
S1: Charlie Dyer, our producer Dan Anderson. I'm John Gager The Land,
46:50
S1: and the book is a production of Moody Radio, a
46:52
S1: Ministry of Moody Bible Institute.