Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Zone 7: The Serial Killer’s Apprentice - Revisiting Wayne Henley Jr. Case and Dean Corll

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Zone 7: The Serial Killer’s Apprentice - Revisiting Wayne Henley Jr. Case and Dean Corll · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:08
Speaker 1: Y'all, they are back, and we are so fortunate. Renowned
0:12
Speaker 1: criminologist doctor Catherine Ramslin and executive producer Tracy Olmen are
0:20
Speaker 1: here tonight and they've got big news that I am
0:24
Speaker 1: so excited to share with all of y'all. Doctor Ramslin, welcome, welcome,
0:29
Speaker 1: and will you tell us what's happening.
0:31
Speaker 2: Well, it's great to be back here. The last time
0:34
Speaker 2: we were here, we had Queen Henley with us as well.
0:38
Speaker 2: We did a couple with him and that was based
0:42
Speaker 2: on a book that we had written about his case.
0:46
Speaker 2: And now we have the documentary version of it, a
0:50
Speaker 2: two hour documentary on the ID Network on August seventeenth,
0:56
Speaker 2: Sunday night, so nine to eleven East Time, and we're
1:01
Speaker 2: hoping that people will really respond to that. There there's
1:04
Speaker 2: more in it than was in the book because there
1:07
Speaker 2: are people interviewed for the documentary that we're not part
1:12
Speaker 2: of the book, So there is yet more really to
1:15
Speaker 2: discover for anyone who has read it and those who haven't.
1:21
Speaker 2: It's it's quite a case and it's disturbing, shocking, but
1:28
Speaker 2: so relevant for today.
1:30
Speaker 1: When I first learned about it, I got real excited.
1:34
Speaker 1: I figured there would be some people that weren't in
1:36
Speaker 1: the book. But anytime you can watch the person talk
1:41
Speaker 1: and that includes you, doctor, you know, you get to me.
1:44
Speaker 1: I get so much more from it, like I can
1:48
Speaker 1: you know, hear the way you you know, present it
1:51
Speaker 1: and you know that kind of thing. You know what
1:53
Speaker 1: I'm talking about it I.
1:54
Speaker 2: Do, and you know, obviously I'm interviewed on it. But
1:58
Speaker 2: also we have some excerpts from the many hours of
2:02
Speaker 2: taping that I did when I was talking to Wayne,
2:05
Speaker 2: So you have footage from the nineteen seventies when all
2:10
Speaker 2: this happened. You have Wayne talking on tape to me,
2:15
Speaker 2: you have me talking about the case, you have other
2:18
Speaker 2: experts talking about the case. So it really is a
2:23
Speaker 2: different experience than reading the book, though it's the same story.
2:27
Speaker 1: And Tracy, I mean, obviously you and doctor Ramslt are
2:31
Speaker 1: not strangers to TV, and you have even been the
2:35
Speaker 1: executive producer own a documentary, so this is familiar ground
2:39
Speaker 1: for you, right right.
2:41
Speaker 3: It was a pleasure to make this, and you know,
2:46
Speaker 3: Catherine and I partnered on the book, but we also
2:48
Speaker 3: worked very much hand in hand on the documentary because
2:53
Speaker 3: she was so essential to giving context to this story.
2:58
Speaker 1: Of course, you know the first thing I thought about was, man,
3:02
Speaker 1: that might be a little difficult to take this masterpiece
3:05
Speaker 1: that y'all have done and then put it in live form.
3:09
Speaker 1: But then I thought, that's what doctor Ramslin does all
3:11
Speaker 1: the time. She takes it on. That's what you do
3:15
Speaker 1: all the time. You take a textbook and you bring
3:17
Speaker 1: it to life. And you know, Tracy the same for
3:20
Speaker 1: you. You take material, you take information, and you put it
3:24
Speaker 1: in film form. So I am so excited August seventeenth,
3:30
Speaker 1: I cannot wait. But I have this question now, doctor Ramslin,
3:35
Speaker 1: were there components that you found difficult to take a
3:40
Speaker 1: chapter and then flip it into like a SoundBite. Was
3:43
Speaker 1: there anything that was a challenge for you.
3:46
Speaker 2: I think it was that I knew we're going to
3:49
Speaker 2: take a really large story and condense it down to
3:54
Speaker 2: two hours, so right off the bat, that's challenging. And
3:59
Speaker 2: then of course you want to figure out what is
4:02
Speaker 2: really essential to get across in this story and who
4:06
Speaker 2: else are they going to be using to peace in.
4:10
Speaker 2: So for me, it was simply telling the story as
4:13
Speaker 2: I know it, you know, and reaching back to the
4:17
Speaker 2: nineteen seventies when the Dean Coral story happened, when these
4:22
Speaker 2: murders happened, and to be able to talk about it
4:25
Speaker 2: in the clinical way that I typically have. Wild viewers
4:30
Speaker 2: are watching these really horrendous images, because you do get
4:34
Speaker 2: footage of them digging up some of the bodies and
4:38
Speaker 2: going into Dean Coral's house and seeing what the torture
4:42
Speaker 2: implements that were in there. Seeing Wayne Henley as a
4:47
Speaker 2: seventeen year old kid, the skinny guy talking to weeping
4:52
Speaker 2: on the phone as he's talking to his mother. So
4:55
Speaker 2: I think trying to get all that into a two
4:58
Speaker 2: hour show was challenging, but it worked well. I think
5:04
Speaker 2: I watched it a couple of times and I really
5:07
Speaker 2: enjoy the sort of way it's been packaged.
5:11
Speaker 1: Well, you know, Tracy, I'm Southern, so I love a
5:15
Speaker 1: good story, and it's hard for me to condense anything.
5:19
Speaker 3: I mean.
5:21
Speaker 1: And somebody says, do you want ice cream? I don't
5:23
Speaker 1: want to just say yes or no. I want to
5:25
Speaker 1: tell them all the reason's. Like, you know, when I
5:30
Speaker 1: was a child, I loved you know what I mean.
5:33
Speaker 1: So when I think of this book, there is a
5:36
Speaker 1: global picture that even when I was reading it, I thought, man,
5:41
Speaker 1: there is so much more that they're going to be
5:44
Speaker 1: able to connect from that book. It's not just Dean Coral.
5:49
Speaker 1: It's not There's a lot more if you look at
5:53
Speaker 1: crime in general, if you look at the way crime
5:55
Speaker 1: is committed, and I'm one of those people. If you
5:59
Speaker 1: take a theft or you take a murder, you can
6:03
Speaker 1: dissect both and get to the same motive.
6:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, when we wrote the book together,
6:12
Speaker 3: Katherine really took the lead. My strength was that I
6:16
Speaker 3: had known Wayne for a few years before we connected Catherine,
6:21
Speaker 3: and then I was very much into the sex trafficking
6:26
Speaker 3: aspect of this story and uncovering that. So when we
6:30
Speaker 3: finally had to sit down with a team that included
6:34
Speaker 3: members of Dick Wolf Entertainment and ITV America, they hired
6:41
Speaker 3: in a what's called a showrunner, somebody who was going
6:45
Speaker 3: to give a look and feel to this story. His
6:48
Speaker 3: name was Alexis Robi, and then they also had a producer,
6:53
Speaker 3: Zoe Vach, and all of us did about five different
6:58
Speaker 3: jobs as we went through what we could possibly do
7:03
Speaker 3: with a small budget, a relatively small budget, and you know,
7:09
Speaker 3: in the end, it was pretty incredible the amount of
7:12
Speaker 3: archive that we had to show what literally happened. And
7:18
Speaker 3: then we put in the recordings of Wayne. We had
7:22
Speaker 3: a way of scrubbing through those by having them artificially
7:29
Speaker 3: intelligenced and transcribed that way, and once we were looking
7:34
Speaker 3: through those things, we were able to discern, Okay, this
7:37
Speaker 3: is going to be relevant to what we're talking about here.
7:40
Speaker 3: This is how we're going to show the grooming that
7:44
Speaker 3: went on. And once that cut was put together, then
7:49
Speaker 3: we had doctor Ramsland come back in and she was
7:55
Speaker 3: basically on a set where we kind of old her
8:00
Speaker 3: talking with Elma Wayne Henley. But there's a little bit
8:04
Speaker 3: of fakery that goes on that way. And once you
8:08
Speaker 3: have the story put together with all those different components,
8:13
Speaker 3: it really brings you back into the early nineteen seventies
8:19
Speaker 3: in Houston and in America, and it really gives the
8:25
Speaker 3: context of we were a country that we were changed
8:29
Speaker 3: by these murders, and we didn't really know why or
8:35
Speaker 3: how until you know, we really you know, doctor Ramslin
8:39
Speaker 3: and I dug into this, and I think now it's
8:42
Speaker 3: much more obvious what those changes ended up being.
8:45
Speaker 1: And I think that's the global picture that interests me
8:48
Speaker 1: so much, because it's not just murder like serial killer, absolutely,
8:53
Speaker 1: but when you're talking about the grooming and the sex trafficking.
8:57
Speaker 1: Those are elements that a lot of people do not
9:00
Speaker 1: realize are so ingrained in some of these cases.
9:04
Speaker 2: And that's partly the takeaway from the book and the
9:07
Speaker 2: documentary is to recognize that this isn't something deep in
9:13
Speaker 2: the past, you know, fifty years ago. This is about
9:17
Speaker 2: kids today just as much and even more so, because
9:20
Speaker 2: they're more vulnerable than they were back in the seventies.
9:24
Speaker 2: And it's not just vulnerable to predators looking for prey.
9:29
Speaker 2: These are predators are looking for partners. They're looking to
9:33
Speaker 2: groom kids to help them. That's essentially what we're talking
9:37
Speaker 2: about is an adult Dean Coral, picked two adolescent boys
9:43
Speaker 2: to do his dirty work for him by leveraging them
9:47
Speaker 2: and more or less trapping them by using things that
9:51
Speaker 2: matter to them until they were in too deep to
9:53
Speaker 2: get out. And this is the thing that kids face today.
9:57
Speaker 2: There are all kinds of sophistications, predators on the internet
10:01
Speaker 2: looking for vulnerable kids to bring into the criminal enterprise
10:08
Speaker 2: they have, and we're seeing that right now with all
10:12
Speaker 2: the Epstein stuff, that kids can be recruited to recruit
10:16
Speaker 2: other kids and on it goes. It's pretty horrifying, and
10:21
Speaker 2: we want people to understand what are the signals and
10:24
Speaker 2: what should they be doing when kids say they need help?
10:27
Speaker 1: And doctor, that's something you have said, and I'm quoting here,
10:31
Speaker 1: there were hard lessons to learn to help us navigate
10:35
Speaker 1: today's world. That's what you're talking about, Yes, very much.
10:40
Speaker 1: You know there's a meme out there that it says
10:42
Speaker 1: something to the fact that it used to be you
10:45
Speaker 1: had to protect your child from one person. Well, now
10:49
Speaker 1: the whole world has access to your child.
10:51
Speaker 2: And even some of their own associates. Other kids might
10:56
Speaker 2: be on something sure, finding ways to exploit their trust.
11:03
Speaker 1: So, Tracy, I think the ultimate goal that y'all are
11:05
Speaker 1: trying to do with this documentary would be what how
11:08
Speaker 1: would you condense it?
11:10
Speaker 3: I think that it is very relevant for doctor Ramsland
11:15
Speaker 3: to mention Jeffrey Epstein in this instance because we have
11:18
Speaker 3: this staring us in the face right now as a
11:21
Speaker 3: societal issue, and the modus operendi is the same across
11:27
Speaker 3: the board. When you talk about John wayn Gacy, when
11:31
Speaker 3: you talk about Dean Coral, Jeffrey Epstein learned ways of
11:36
Speaker 3: operating that are directly related to these men. And when
11:40
Speaker 3: you think about them operating, They cannot operate successfully without
11:47
Speaker 3: others empowering them, other people empower clearing the way so
11:53
Speaker 3: that they don't get arrested, so that they do have
11:56
Speaker 3: access to other victims as well as other people that
12:01
Speaker 3: will be paying for their services. And so, you know,
12:06
Speaker 3: doctor Ramsland and I were discussing earlier, we don't know
12:11
Speaker 3: half as much as we should about the Jeffrey Epstein
12:14
Speaker 3: case because with everything else being comparable to these other cases,
12:20
Speaker 3: is there any form of pornography that surrounds this case?
12:25
Speaker 3: Are there any murders that surround this case? These are
12:29
Speaker 3: questions that have not yet been answered. They haven't been asked, really,
12:35
Speaker 3: And so when you have a modus operendi that's copied
12:38
Speaker 3: over and over again, what elements have people copied? And
12:44
Speaker 3: you know, we're just trying to give an example of
12:46
Speaker 3: what's possible as part of this story.
12:49
Speaker 1: And you know, doctor Trycy brings up a great point.
12:53
Speaker 1: The young man that just murdered the mom and dad
12:57
Speaker 1: that we're walking with the two little girls in the
12:58
Speaker 1: state park. One of the first things I said is
13:02
Speaker 1: he will have pornography on all of his devices. Child
13:06
Speaker 1: pornography specifically I think the children were his target. I
13:12
Speaker 1: think those parents probably thought were together, we're in a
13:15
Speaker 1: state park. We could not be safer.
13:18
Speaker 2: That, yeah, And I don't want to make it seem
13:20
Speaker 2: as if every place in the world is dangerous. But
13:25
Speaker 2: on the other hand, predators look specifically for places that
13:29
Speaker 2: people feel safe and pose as people who seem safe.
13:35
Speaker 2: He was a teacher, He was an ordinary looking guy
13:38
Speaker 2: aside from the strange hair, but he was an ordinary
13:42
Speaker 2: looking guy. And so they really want people to be
13:47
Speaker 2: off guard, to not see them coming, and they play
13:52
Speaker 2: a long game. Quite often, they will grew a whole neighborhood,
13:56
Speaker 2: whole town, a whole city to believe certain things about
14:01
Speaker 2: them so that they can operate under the radar. And
14:04
Speaker 2: I think, you know, we don't know that much yet
14:07
Speaker 2: about his motivation and background. I know some things, but
14:11
Speaker 2: I think as it's going to come out, you know,
14:13
Speaker 2: you're probably right that he was certainly out there targeting
14:19
Speaker 2: possibly those kids. But yeah, he was a dangerous individual
14:25
Speaker 2: who found a seemingly safe place to operate.
14:33
Speaker 1: Tracy, when you're looking at the documentary and y'all have
14:36
Speaker 1: added people that are not in the book and the interviews,
14:40
Speaker 1: so you're going to have information that's maybe new to y'all.
14:45
Speaker 1: How did y'all craft that if it was something that
14:47
Speaker 1: y'all were not privy to before.
14:50
Speaker 3: I think the thing we wanted to do was to
14:53
Speaker 3: get everyone back into Houston in the early nineteen seventies.
14:58
Speaker 3: We did not want to say, Okay, we've got all
15:01
Speaker 3: of this noise going on, with fifty years having passed
15:05
Speaker 3: from this case, we want to bring you back into
15:07
Speaker 3: Elma Wayne Henley's world. And so one of his best
15:12
Speaker 3: friends at the time, Angela Michaels, she, you know, was
15:19
Speaker 3: able to talk about what a good person this was.
15:23
Speaker 3: We were able to talk about them going to concerts,
15:27
Speaker 3: what an average individual this person was, and so to
15:33
Speaker 3: think about Emmayne Henley before all this becomes publicized, you
15:37
Speaker 3: start to see a teenager who really would never have
15:42
Speaker 3: gone in this direction if you weren't guided there, if
15:45
Speaker 3: you weren't manipulated and threatened. We talked with one of
15:51
Speaker 3: his fellow cub Scouts, Mark Nelson, and you just get
15:56
Speaker 3: this mundane picture of a community that comes to gather
16:00
Speaker 3: at the Henley household, and these cub Scouts meet up
16:05
Speaker 3: and they're talking about all sorts of activities, and the
16:09
Speaker 3: Henley parents, you know, Mary and Elmer sr Are you know,
16:15
Speaker 3: guiding these meetings and all the kids respect them, and
16:19
Speaker 3: there is no sign of anything untoward until you see
16:26
Speaker 3: that family start to break down. You start to see
16:30
Speaker 3: the insertion of Dean Coral and his methods of grooming,
16:35
Speaker 3: and everything takes a sharp right turn in the wrong direction.
16:40
Speaker 3: And as a teenager, Elma Wayne Henley doesn't have the
16:44
Speaker 3: ability to stop that. He's responding to all sorts of insecurities,
16:52
Speaker 3: all sorts of lack of intelligence that you might have
16:55
Speaker 3: as an adult, and for so long we've kind of
16:59
Speaker 3: superimposed on him. Well he should have known. Will you
17:02
Speaker 3: try being a young team and understanding all of these
17:07
Speaker 3: kind of different ways, you know, somebody like dancorl could
17:12
Speaker 3: manipulate you. It's very difficult even as adults to grasp.
17:17
Speaker 2: I think it's important to also point out about the documentary.
17:21
Speaker 2: It is balanced. We have relatives of victims talking on it,
17:25
Speaker 2: we have law enforcement discussing it. We have people who
17:30
Speaker 2: just don't think that Wayne was a good guy, and
17:35
Speaker 2: we have people who do. So you're really getting a
17:38
Speaker 2: balanced picture of the response to the crimes and the
17:44
Speaker 2: fact that Wayne is in this odd position of being
17:47
Speaker 2: both a victim and a perpetrator, and it's very difficult
17:51
Speaker 2: to try to find the language to talk about someone
17:53
Speaker 2: like that.
17:55
Speaker 1: Sure, and here's the deal. When he's been on Zone
17:58
Speaker 1: seven twice, he has stated very clearly he wants to
18:03
Speaker 1: help at least one child. That's his whole purpose for
18:08
Speaker 1: working with the two of you and now being a
18:11
Speaker 1: part of the documentary. How do you think this is
18:15
Speaker 1: going to maybe affect him? Like, I know you've talked
18:20
Speaker 1: to him. I mean, is he excited about it?
18:22
Speaker 3: Yeah?
18:22
Speaker 2: I think I think he feels that it was worthwhile.
18:25
Speaker 2: There was a long process and with ups and downs,
18:28
Speaker 2: as documentary making can be, but I think he is
18:34
Speaker 2: happy to have finally have had the opportunity to tell
18:37
Speaker 2: his story fully without being, you know, having it distorted
18:43
Speaker 2: in some manner as has happened to him before, and
18:48
Speaker 2: that this could potentially reach not just kids who could
18:52
Speaker 2: be in trouble, but counselors and teachers and parents who
18:57
Speaker 2: deal with kids who need to under stand how important
19:00
Speaker 2: it is to listen because the essence of his story
19:04
Speaker 2: is that he did try to tell somebody. He tried
19:06
Speaker 2: to tell several people adults, he tried to get away
19:10
Speaker 2: several times. This is something that's not well known about him,
19:15
Speaker 2: but what happened is people thought he was crazy or
19:17
Speaker 2: drunk or on drugs or something. They just ignored his
19:21
Speaker 2: cry for help. And he wants people to understand you
19:25
Speaker 2: have to listen, no matter what it sounds like, you
19:28
Speaker 2: have to at least try to help these kids. And
19:32
Speaker 2: I think if he believes that this will in fact
19:36
Speaker 2: achieve that goal.
19:38
Speaker 1: And Tracy, you know, I have watched court go from
19:44
Speaker 1: just some people like the prosecution and the defense standing
19:47
Speaker 1: and talking to almost more theatrical. They have you know,
19:53
Speaker 1: video Now they have all kinds of charts and graphs
19:57
Speaker 1: that can move and you can show things and real time. Tracy,
20:02
Speaker 1: to me, when I think of what this documentary could
20:05
Speaker 1: do for Wayne, especially with Catherine talking to him, is
20:10
Speaker 1: how they're going to make it look correct, correct that
20:13
Speaker 1: people are going to have the opportunity to hear him
20:18
Speaker 1: in a way that I don't think they could in
20:20
Speaker 1: the book. But this will give them an opportunity to say,
20:24
Speaker 1: wait a minute, he was a victim, then he became
20:28
Speaker 1: a perpetrator. Now he's trying to help so again for you,
20:33
Speaker 1: being a documentary executive producer, that is part of the
20:38
Speaker 1: story that I would want to really bring to light.
20:41
Speaker 3: It was such a privilege to be able to match
20:46
Speaker 3: up story points with what doctor Ramslan and Wayne Henley
20:51
Speaker 3: were discussing. But I must admit I was in charge
20:56
Speaker 3: of scripting the second episode and the very exciting part
21:01
Speaker 3: of that for me was the very last act where
21:06
Speaker 3: we start to ask our participants, both for and against
21:12
Speaker 3: Wayne Henley, now that you know that this had to
21:17
Speaker 3: do with sexual trafficking, where there was pornography generated of
21:23
Speaker 3: the victims, how do you feel about that? And to
21:27
Speaker 3: have one of the victims' family members say, look, somebody
21:32
Speaker 3: had to take those photographs, somebody had to send those
21:37
Speaker 3: photographs to a publisher, somebody had to put together the
21:41
Speaker 3: magazine and then distribute it. That for me, as people
21:45
Speaker 3: are reflecting the thoughts of that insult to injury for
21:50
Speaker 3: the victims, that was a very exciting part of putting
21:54
Speaker 3: that together. To really bring those voices to a symphony
21:59
Speaker 3: that describes sex trafficking and what really happened in this case,
22:03
Speaker 3: and that has never been done before.
22:06
Speaker 1: Unbelievable. And you know, doctor you and Tracy were so
22:10
Speaker 1: gracious to allow me to talk to him with y'all twice,
22:16
Speaker 1: and I know how that affected me. I mean for
22:19
Speaker 1: days and days, I just kept replaying some things that
22:22
Speaker 1: he said and knowing the background and knowing the crimes.
22:27
Speaker 1: I can't imagine for you this is in some way
22:32
Speaker 1: it's a testament to your career, but it's also again
22:37
Speaker 1: using your genius to help other people so that lay people, teachers, parents, counselors,
22:46
Speaker 1: football coaches can get this information.
22:49
Speaker 2: That's what I'm hoping for, and I will say I
22:52
Speaker 2: didn't actually expect it was going to move in this
22:55
Speaker 2: direction when I had one of the original notions of
23:00
Speaker 2: out Henley being a bad kid who sold his friends
23:04
Speaker 2: for money to know this predator, because that was the
23:08
Speaker 2: original notion that was passed around in the original true
23:12
Speaker 2: crime books about this. But I wanted to talk with
23:16
Speaker 2: him because he seemed in one brief interview about his artwork,
23:22
Speaker 2: he seemed intelligent and self reflective, and I thought, well,
23:26
Speaker 2: maybe maybe I have something to learn. And so I'm
23:29
Speaker 2: hoping that is the same effect on other people who've
23:33
Speaker 2: already made up their minds based on outdated information and
23:37
Speaker 2: even incorrect information. I hope that's the same experience they
23:42
Speaker 2: will have when they listen to him and they see
23:46
Speaker 2: what this case really was about, which was not represented
23:51
Speaker 2: in the original accounts of this of this case.
23:55
Speaker 1: And it's an unbelievable winda into just the most horrific
24:02
Speaker 1: types of crime that again target children. And I'm going
24:08
Speaker 1: to go back to the young man we were talking
24:11
Speaker 1: about in the state park. He not only was a teacher,
24:15
Speaker 1: but he got that job over and over and over
24:18
Speaker 1: in different states. So they're there, and they're going to
24:24
Speaker 1: go to the places where they can get to the
24:26
Speaker 1: victims of choice.
24:28
Speaker 2: And let's not forget the female teacher who was also
24:32
Speaker 2: recently caught engaging in a relationship with an underage child.
24:39
Speaker 2: It's not just guys.
24:40
Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely excellent point. Yes, And that's the thing. If
24:46
Speaker 1: you're wanting to be with a child of a certain age,
24:50
Speaker 1: then you're going to be a little league football coach,
24:53
Speaker 1: or you're going to teach you the elementary school, you're
24:56
Speaker 1: going to be a malsana. You're going to gravitate to
24:58
Speaker 1: those jobs.
24:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's all kinds of ways in if you really determine.
25:03
Speaker 1: Of course, pracy, what do you think when the documentary
25:10
Speaker 1: is out and people are going to be able to
25:13
Speaker 1: engage and talk about it and hopefully start asking some questions.
25:17
Speaker 1: What do you want them to be able to take
25:20
Speaker 1: away from it to use immediately?
25:23
Speaker 3: You know, there's I actually want to kind of flip
25:26
Speaker 3: that question. If it's okay, what I.
25:28
Speaker 1: Don't, Honey, you flip anything you want, Thank you, I'm
25:33
Speaker 1: here flipping.
25:34
Speaker 3: But the thing that I don't want people to take
25:38
Speaker 3: away are people who are dead set in seeing this
25:43
Speaker 3: individual as one of the worst criminals of all time.
25:49
Speaker 3: You know, the things that he did while he was
25:53
Speaker 3: under the influence of a complete, you know, completely manipulative,
26:01
Speaker 3: dangerous individual. The things that he did were not things
26:05
Speaker 3: that he would have done had he not met that person.
26:09
Speaker 3: And so when you think about him committing murder, we
26:13
Speaker 3: have to put that in context. And if people are
26:17
Speaker 3: constantly banging the drum of this is a more than
26:20
Speaker 3: fifty year old narrative, the narrative has to stick. We
26:24
Speaker 3: have to see this individual as dangerous, always dangerous, and
26:29
Speaker 3: never redeemable, no matter what he says and no matter
26:33
Speaker 3: what new information we have. That's something that I will
26:36
Speaker 3: be very frustrated if people decide to seize on language
26:43
Speaker 3: or you know, parts of this story without viewing the
26:47
Speaker 3: entire body of information. What I would hope people do
26:51
Speaker 3: is they say, oh, my goodness, I can't believe. And
26:56
Speaker 3: this was the same for the investigation into John Wayne Gacy.
27:00
Speaker 3: I think it will prove out in the investigation of
27:02
Speaker 3: Jeffrey Epstein is that what we've had here are people
27:08
Speaker 3: that are in power, who have access to these illicit activities.
27:16
Speaker 3: They exploit them, they benefit from, you know, expressing their perversions,
27:23
Speaker 3: and then they get to write the history that we've
27:27
Speaker 3: now had for the past fifty years, assigning Elma Wyn
27:31
Speaker 3: Henley Junior all of the viciousness in these crimes. And
27:37
Speaker 3: what I want people to take away from is, no,
27:40
Speaker 3: this was a child. You know. This afternoon, doctor Ramselin
27:46
Speaker 3: and I were saying, you know, can we accurately get
27:49
Speaker 3: the age at which Elmayn Henley would have been involved
27:53
Speaker 3: in these crimes? And we went between fourteen and fifteen
27:58
Speaker 3: years old, And the conclusion we both came to is
28:01
Speaker 3: that's still very young. When I imagine my three children
28:06
Speaker 3: being that age. You know, this is these are not
28:10
Speaker 3: capable individuals. These are still forming individuals. And so I
28:16
Speaker 3: just feel as though, you know, if we can look
28:19
Speaker 3: at this with a new information, then we see how
28:24
Speaker 3: many people prevented Dean Coral being discovered earlier. How many
28:31
Speaker 3: people must have known he was creating pornography, how many
28:35
Speaker 3: people must have known that they were purchasing his pornography,
28:41
Speaker 3: and that there was a ring that surrounded him that was,
28:46
Speaker 3: you know, very wealthy and very connected. So what we
28:52
Speaker 3: want to walk away from is, let's take a good
28:55
Speaker 3: look at who we're dealing with. Let's understand why that
28:58
Speaker 3: individual might be making a suggestion about taking our kids
29:03
Speaker 3: and kind of you know, doing things with them that
29:06
Speaker 3: are it just doesn't make sense. Why don't we go
29:09
Speaker 3: ahead in question authority a little bit more. That's what
29:14
Speaker 3: I'm hoping people will walk away with, not that they
29:16
Speaker 3: will be afraid of anyone, but that they will be
29:22
Speaker 3: more informed about how to behave in these situations and
29:25
Speaker 3: not take situations in which authorities are presented to us
29:30
Speaker 3: and take them just lock stock and barrel everything that
29:33
Speaker 3: they do. Oh, that must make sense, you know. I
29:36
Speaker 3: did a lot of research into the former Speaker of
29:40
Speaker 3: the House, Dennis Haster as a result of looking into
29:44
Speaker 3: these cases, and when I think about how many victims
29:47
Speaker 3: Dennis Hastard had, even though he continued to progress in
29:52
Speaker 3: power and status and wealth, and you look back on
29:57
Speaker 3: him now and you think, you know, it's just horrible
30:00
Speaker 3: that we empowered him, and we shouldn't be letting people
30:04
Speaker 3: get away with these things.
30:06
Speaker 1: And you know, Doc she mentioned Gacy, and you know
30:11
Speaker 1: he was part of a sex rink. I thought that
30:14
Speaker 1: was going to come out at Delphi, that there was
30:16
Speaker 1: a sex ring when I first heard that one man
30:19
Speaker 1: was texting one of the victims and said, Hey, meet
30:22
Speaker 1: me at the bridge on this day this time, And
30:25
Speaker 1: there just happened to be a second individual, a child killer,
30:29
Speaker 1: on that same bridge at the same date and time.
30:32
Speaker 1: I thought, surely these people know each other. And then
30:34
Speaker 1: they were found on the property of another man that
30:37
Speaker 1: had a background, and I just thought, this has got
30:40
Speaker 1: to be a ring.
30:41
Speaker 2: I don't know that it's definitely not that. The problem
30:45
Speaker 2: with relying on the information we have is that there's
30:51
Speaker 2: a cognitive error we make that all the information we
30:56
Speaker 2: have is all there is, and that's not necessarily true.
31:00
Speaker 2: There could be things we will find out later or
31:04
Speaker 2: which will never be uncovered, but which are nevertheless true.
31:07
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to feed a conspiracy theory here, but
31:11
Speaker 2: but I always am very careful about saying that we
31:15
Speaker 2: have the final story on any case, because I've watched
31:19
Speaker 2: just this case, for example, I've watched how it evolved
31:23
Speaker 2: as we've come up with more and more information. There's
31:26
Speaker 2: still stuff being found that we weren't even able to
31:30
Speaker 2: add in because it's only been found recently. So I
31:33
Speaker 2: think that that I wouldn't say definitively there wasn't one
31:38
Speaker 2: or that we'll never find out. I think I think
31:41
Speaker 2: this is that is a case that has some dark spaces,
31:45
Speaker 2: yet still I think.
31:47
Speaker 1: I would agree with you one hundred percent, because I've
31:50
Speaker 1: even said I can't fathom the coincidence that would take.
31:57
Speaker 1: I imagine y'all get a lot of questions. I at one
32:01
Speaker 1: is about Wayne. Did he ever have any remorse or
32:05
Speaker 1: does he have remorse?
32:05
Speaker 2: Now?
32:06
Speaker 3: You know, having spoken with him on a regular basis,
32:10
Speaker 3: sometimes twice a week for the past five years, we've
32:14
Speaker 3: had many discussions about Wayne's remorse and how he wish,
32:20
Speaker 3: you know. One of the first conversations that him and
32:23
Speaker 3: I actually had, starting in March of twenty twenty, was
32:27
Speaker 3: I said did you realize that you were part of
32:29
Speaker 3: a sex trafficking ring? And he said he was very
32:34
Speaker 3: intimidated by that. He said, I don't think I know
32:37
Speaker 3: what you're referring to. I said, I need you to
32:40
Speaker 3: know that a lot of your victims appeared in pornography
32:43
Speaker 3: that you had no responsibility for. I said that pornography
32:48
Speaker 3: was distributed over years and found again and again in
32:51
Speaker 3: various collections. And him hearing this was just mind blowing
32:56
Speaker 3: to him. He had never even considered it. He had
32:59
Speaker 3: heard of syndicate, He had understood there might be other
33:04
Speaker 3: people in Dallas associated with Dean Coral, but he had
33:08
Speaker 3: never been able to He just wanted to follow along
33:13
Speaker 3: with what had been told to him in court. You
33:16
Speaker 3: are responsible for these murders that you've committed, and you
33:20
Speaker 3: will forever be, you know, at the receiving end of guilt.
33:25
Speaker 3: And he just kind of banged that drum all along.
33:29
Speaker 3: And so once we started talking about, wait, this is
33:31
Speaker 3: a reality that you were not the sole apprentice of
33:38
Speaker 3: this individual. More than likely there were apprentices before you
33:42
Speaker 3: that no longer existed when you got there. And then
33:46
Speaker 3: to kind of bring him into police records that he
33:49
Speaker 3: had never had access to that they knew right away
33:53
Speaker 3: that there was pornography of the victims. That they started
33:56
Speaker 3: to associate this with an individual in data Listen named
34:00
Speaker 3: John David Norman, but that this individual, who was arrested
34:05
Speaker 3: initially for having four tons of child pornography in Dallas,
34:09
Speaker 3: managed to escape on bond to the suburbs of Chicago,
34:16
Speaker 3: uniting with associates of John Wayne Gacy. When you think
34:21
Speaker 3: about that whole large scenario, I think that Wayne finally
34:26
Speaker 3: got some relief in the idea that wait, I was
34:31
Speaker 3: not old enough to consent to this. I didn't even
34:34
Speaker 3: understand maybe what was happening, and the behaviors that I
34:38
Speaker 3: experienced were merely for survival. And that was something that
34:42
Speaker 3: I think both of us had to convince him of
34:44
Speaker 3: instead of just that he was responsible for every single
34:48
Speaker 3: murder that happened.
34:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so when I first talked to him, one
34:54
Speaker 2: of the very first things he said to me was,
34:56
Speaker 2: don't try to talk me out of being responsible for this. Wow,
35:01
Speaker 2: what a way to introduce yourself. And you know, but
35:05
Speaker 2: I knew that eventually I would be introducing him to
35:10
Speaker 2: the literature from neuro psychology and the teenage brain, and
35:14
Speaker 2: you know, things like that that would help him understand
35:18
Speaker 2: much more about how easily kids are to manipulate. And
35:23
Speaker 2: you know, I didn't want him necessarily to take a
35:26
Speaker 2: stance of resistance, but repeatedly he has expressed remorse and
35:31
Speaker 2: he doesn't understand why people don't think he's capable of it,
35:37
Speaker 2: which was the idea, you know, back when he was
35:42
Speaker 2: trying to do some media in the nineteen eighties and nineties,
35:45
Speaker 2: people just didn't believe that he could he could be
35:48
Speaker 2: genuine or have any real deep feeling about being remorseful.
35:53
Speaker 2: But he he's horrified at how at what he was
35:58
Speaker 2: capable of doing under the influence of Dean Coral. And he,
36:04
Speaker 2: as he says in the documentary, I'm still living my
36:07
Speaker 2: life inside Dean Coral because I'm here because of Dean Coral.
36:13
Speaker 2: And these are not the things I would have ever
36:17
Speaker 2: wanted to do. He wanted to be a minister, and
36:19
Speaker 2: he read the Bible every day, carried a little pocket
36:22
Speaker 2: Bible around with him. And that's somebody who's not a
36:28
Speaker 2: person who wanted to bring harm to others. And so
36:31
Speaker 2: I think that it's hard for him to understand why
36:34
Speaker 2: do people question his ability to feel the remorse that
36:39
Speaker 2: he says he has, and yet we do come across
36:42
Speaker 2: that a lot.
36:44
Speaker 1: That's powerful. And I just appreciate you both. I mean,
36:49
Speaker 1: y'all know how I feel about your work. It is
36:52
Speaker 1: invaluable and it is something that needs to be in
36:55
Speaker 1: the hands of every teacher and counselor and parent and
36:58
Speaker 1: coach and anybody that deals with children in any way.
37:02
Speaker 1: So I just appreciate you both. And congratulations on the documentary.
37:07
Speaker 1: That is significant and it is well earned and deserved.
37:12
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you so much. We really appreciate you.
37:16
Speaker 1: Cheryl anytime, anytime, y'all. I'm going to end Zone seven
37:22
Speaker 1: the way that I always do with a quote, some
37:26
Speaker 1: people still to stay alive and some people still to
37:30
Speaker 1: feel alive, simple as that. From a Darker shade of magic.
37:36
Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.