Latest / The Start, Scale & Succeed Podcast / Over-Processed: You’re Not in Whitewater… Yet with Scott Ritzheimer (stages 3,4,5) - Ep. 431

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Over-Processed: You’re Not in Whitewater… Yet with Scott Ritzheimer (stages 3,4,5) - Ep. 431 · The Start, Scale & Succeed Podcast

0:00
Scott Ritzheimer: Hello, hello, and welcome, welcome once again
0:03
to the Start Scale and Succeed podcast, the only podcast that
0:05
grows with you through all seven levels of your journey as a
0:09
founder. We are now in part three of our "You're Not in
0:13
Whitewater dot dot dot yet" series, where we're not talking
0:17
about the levels of the founder's evolution, but instead
0:20
we're talking about the stages that organizations go through
0:24
together, and one of those really important stages-one that
0:28
I spend a lot of time working with my clients in-is the
0:31
whitewater stage. And a big part of the reason why you might have
0:36
heard about me or started following this probably had to
0:38
do with whitewater. You heard me talking about it somewhere. You
0:42
heard one of our scale architects talk about it
0:44
somewhere, or you heard Les talk about it. The guy who created
0:47
the model, the predictable success model. And what we're
0:51
exploring here in this series is the growing phenomena. I guess
0:57
you could call it pattern, maybe more appropriate, where I'm
1:02
seeing more and more and more organizations end up in
1:06
whitewater prematurely by their own doing, not for the right
1:12
reasons than ever before, and I think it's a trend that's going
1:16
to continue. I think it's actually going to accelerate
1:20
because when you look at it, there's actually three times as
1:23
many ways, or at least you know three times as many groups of
1:28
ways. There's an infinite number of ways, but there are three
1:30
times as many ways to end up in whitewater for the wrong reason
1:35
as there is to end up in whitewater for the right reason.
1:39
So in episode one, if you haven't seen that in this little
1:42
mini series, I'd encourage you to go back to it because I lay
1:45
some of the foundation. We talk about what the different stages
1:48
are, just in case you're new to the the predictable success life
1:51
cycle. We talk about the different leadership styles,
1:54
which is a really really important part of how
1:57
organizations end up in whitewater by mistake. We talk
2:01
about why it matters, like what's the problem with getting
2:04
into whitewater too early, and we actually built on that a
2:06
little more in episode two. So, if you want to know more about
2:09
why getting into whitewater early is a bad thing, check out
2:12
the second episode in this little series. In this third
2:18
series, we're going to talk about the second reason why
2:23
organizations end up in whitewater prematurely. Now,
2:26
again, the first reason, which we talked about in the previous
2:30
episode, is that they are overvisioned, and the only right
2:34
reason is that they are overoperated. So the goal then
2:39
is to make sure that your organization only ever gets to
2:43
Whitewater by having too much operator to sustain that
2:47
success. If you're overvision, or if you're wondering what
2:51
overvision is, or you think you might be overvisioned, check out
2:53
the previous episode. In this one, we're going to talk about
2:56
one of you know maybe the most confusing reasons, and that is
2:59
that you can end up in whitewater because you are
3:04
overprocessed. Now, again, if you've been following along in a
3:09
couple of these episodes, you might think that's insane
3:12
because, again, if you're familiar with the model at all,
3:16
you know that what do you have to do when you're in whitewater?
3:19
You have to add systems and processes. The reason why you're
3:22
in whitewater is because you don't have enough system and
3:24
process, and there's too much complexity, and you need system
3:27
and process to overcome that complexity. Then why in the
3:32
world would adding system and process put you into whitewater?
3:37
And if you're in whitewater because you have too much system
3:40
and complexity, you have too much system and process. Then,
3:45
how in the world do you get out? Because the only way out, Scott,
3:49
is to to add system and process. If we have too much, how can we
3:52
add more and think that it's going to change anything? It
3:55
won't. It won't. And that's the point. That's the that's the
4:01
whole problem with ending up here. Now, how does this happen?
4:04
Let's unwind this a little bit because it's really important to
4:06
understand how we get here. Because this is again, I think
4:09
the it could very well become the the most common reason why
4:14
organizations struggle with whitewater when they shouldn't.
4:17
I think it's going to pass being overvisioned if it hasn't
4:19
already. And here's what the problem is, and it's twofold.
4:27
One, people who've been through whitewater, or people who help
4:32
people through whitewater, folks who understand the whitewater
4:35
stage, and have learned the lessons of needing more system
4:39
and process, when they are asked, "Hey, what do I do to
4:43
grow? How do I scale? They, because Whitewater is so
4:46
painful, one of the very first things they're going to say is,
4:49
"You need to have systems and processes to scale, and that is
4:54
accurate for somebody who's legitimately in Whitewater who
4:58
has over-operated. And can no longer sustain fun. The path
5:03
forward for them is absolutely to add system and process. Now
5:09
it's a very specific set of systems and processes. It's not
5:12
just system and process galore, and it's and it's to use those
5:17
systems and processes in a very specific way, not just to throw
5:21
them haphazardly at everything, or ask ChatGPT to make you a
5:24
handbook. That's not going to do anything. Instead, you have to
5:30
have the right systems. You have to embrace those systems, and
5:32
you have to you have to build them into the way that you lead.
5:35
It has to change the way that you lead. Now, how do we end up
5:45
here prematurely? Well, those folks who recognize, hey, I've
5:47
been through whitewater. I know what that's like. I know how we
5:50
got out. It was by adding systems and processes. They tell
5:52
other people you need systems and processes, but everyone
5:56
fails to recognize that there's a timing to this, that there's a
6:00
sequence to it. That when you're a young organization in early
6:04
struggle, systems and processes aren't going to do anything if
6:07
you don't even know what you're having to systematize or process
6:10
in the first place. If you're creating a new product and you
6:13
don't even know what it is yet, you can't build a system for
6:16
delivering it. Right now, that's a little extreme, but it's kind
6:19
of the same thing all across the board in early struggle, and so
6:23
what I'm getting is there's a right time and place for system
6:25
and process, and the right time for for system wide, enterprise
6:30
wide system and process for a systematic way of leading the
6:34
organization. The time for that is when you get into whitewater
6:37
again because you've overoperated, but that also
6:42
means that that time is not before that, because here's the
6:46
problem: operators, the folks that you want to drive you
6:50
toward Whitewater, if we could say it that way. Let me say it a
6:54
better way: operators, the ones who are going to make the most
6:57
fun in fun, the ones who are going to let you get the biggest
7:00
in fun. The ones who will need the least management from you in
7:04
fun. The ones who can create the most success in fun. Those
7:10
folks, they don't like systems and processes. Not overly
7:15
cumbersome ones. They will deal with as little system and
7:19
process is as needed, and probably not a whole lot more,
7:23
because one of the things you need to know about operators is
7:25
that the motto of a great operator is "Tell me what to do
7:28
and don't watch. You can tell me what to do, but I don't want you
7:33
hovering over my shoulder telling me how to do it. That's
7:36
the way that operators work. Well, what happens when we hear,
7:40
oh, you need systems and processes to scale. And instead
7:43
of letting our operators have room to breathe and do their
7:46
thing and grow the organization their way, we go in and we start
7:50
imposing systems and processes on them. What do you think a
7:53
great operator is going to do in that circumstance? They're gone,
7:58
right? They're gonna. They're either going to ignore the
8:01
system and process, and if you're wise enough, you'll
8:04
actually let them because you're the one who's wrong, or they
8:09
will leave and find somewhere else where they can work without
8:12
having someone over their shoulder 24/7. Because operators
8:15
hate being micromanaged, and the amount of system and process you
8:18
need to get out of Whitewater will leave a lot of operators,
8:21
not all of them, but a lot of them, feeling micromanaged.
8:26
So operators are this like critical gift for the fun stage,
8:32
and we want to set up our system in the fun stage for operators
8:36
so that we can get as big as possible, as simple as possible.
8:39
And when we add system and process. We actually
8:42
artificially add complexity because it's actually more
8:46
complicated to do the thing and write it down and follow the
8:51
checklist and report to five different people than it is to
8:55
do the thing, right? Like that. That's that's indisputable. And
9:00
so when we add system and process, here's what's here's
9:03
what happens. The the best way I can describe what being over
9:07
processed is and why it pushes you to whitewater prematurely is
9:12
it's kind of like if you took I I drive a little pickup truck
9:15
and if you take even that little pickup truck and you take its
9:18
brakes right you take its brakes off that's the dangerous
9:21
vehicle. That that's not a pleasant thing to drive because
9:24
the moment you've got to stop at an intersection, you're in an
9:26
accident. So those brakes are a good thing. Agreed, right? It's
9:29
pretty straightforward. Well, what happens when I put those
9:32
brakes on my mountain bike? I mean, that that's a good like if
9:38
it can stop my truck, it can stop my bike, right? I mean,
9:41
like they're gonna be plenty strong enough. If I'm gonna, you
9:44
know, pedal faster and go faster, eventually I'm gonna
9:47
need that, right? I know it's ridiculous, but but this is
9:52
that's the point. This is ridiculous. What happens if you
9:55
put the the braking system from my truck onto my mountain bike?
10:00
First thing that's going to happen is when I'm trying to
10:02
pedal, they're going to get in the way and they're going to
10:04
slow me down. That's what systems and processes do to your
10:06
operators. They just get in their way and slow them down.
10:10
And then what happens? Heaven forbid, where I ever touch the
10:13
brake lever and activate that braking system, it's way too
10:18
much for the bike. And so the moment I do, boom, straight over
10:21
the handlebars, right? Not even a glimmer of hope of avoiding
10:24
it. That would be insane. No one would do that. At least I hope
10:29
no one would do that. But that's exactly what we do. We think I
10:33
got to pedal faster, so I need to get the brakes from something
10:35
that's faster, and I need to put them on my vehicle. Another
10:39
braking analogy, and this one might help as well. Fun is a
10:44
little bit like NASCAR on an oval circuit. The goal is to go
10:48
and to go fast. If you're using your brakes on an oval circuit,
10:53
you're either coming into the pit lane or avoiding an
10:56
accident. Like those are the only two reasons, because the
10:58
rest of the time you should be pedal to the metal or close,
11:03
because how in the you know how are you gonna like you just
11:05
you're you're just going you're just going, and so when you look
11:10
at the braking system on a NASCAR vehicle, right? I think
11:13
they have 1000 horsepower, something like that. These are
11:16
monster engines, super powerful machines with these teeny little
11:20
itty bitty brakes, because the brakes would just slow them
11:24
down. Well, what happens whenever they go to a street
11:27
circuit, or what happens when you go to a Formula One style or
11:31
you know indie style street circuit? You need much bigger
11:34
brakes. The brakes on a Formula One car, even though it's much
11:38
lighter and less powerful, are significantly more powerful the
11:43
brakes are than those on a NASCAR vehicle set up for an
11:48
oval track. Why? Because you're using brakes a lot. You have to
11:51
slow down to speed up. In fact, the fastest way around the track
11:56
is to slow down the most at the right points. You actually can
12:02
exit a corner faster by slowing down better. Otherwise, you just
12:06
end up in the wall. And so, both of these, I want to show you.
12:10
Systems and processes are like breaks for your organization.
12:13
And when the time comes that you need them, you need them. And
12:17
so, when you move to a street circuit, something that has
12:22
something other than just left turns, you will very quickly
12:25
recognize the need for them. And if you don't, it's pretty
12:28
catastrophic.
12:29
Which is why people who've been through that experience are so
12:34
right to say you have to have systems and processes. But if
12:38
you add all that breaking to your team that's just trying to
12:41
go in a straight line as fast as they can. The only thing it's
12:45
going to do is slow you down, and then throw you into
12:49
whitewater prematurely. What's going on here is that folks
13:02
who've either been through Whitewater and want to help
13:04
others, or folks who see that Whitewater exists-right? You've
13:08
read the Predictable Success book. You know that Whitewater's
13:11
out there. We have the temptation to try and skip
13:14
Whitewater. We think, well, if I can add those systems and
13:18
processes now, then I'll never feel the pain of whitewater, and
13:22
if you've got anything from this episode, I hope you recognize
13:25
that it's that doesn't work. It actually makes whitewater twice
13:29
as long, twice as expensive, and twice as hard, because you hit
13:34
whitewater with less velocity. And I know I'm throwing a bunch
13:38
of metaphors at you, but I really want to land the point,
13:42
and I actually had someone who who had a bunch of whitewater
13:44
experience who said to me, the safest way to hit whitewater
13:48
rapids is to hit them as fast as you can. When you have a big
13:52
rapid, you want to get as much momentum going into it as you
13:55
possibly can, so that you have the greatest opportunity to
13:59
steer and navigate through it. That's what's going on for
14:02
organizations. When organizations are overprocessed,
14:05
they hit whitewater without the requisite momentum. Why is that
14:09
a problem? Well, it's a really big problem because, like we've
14:13
mentioned earlier, you have to, if you're going to get through
14:17
whitewater that you created on your own by having too much
14:19
system and process, you have to simultaneously reduce system and
14:23
process, increase operator, usually increase some vision as
14:27
well to get through it, and add systems and processes all at the
14:32
same time. Like that screws with your mind, and it's really
14:38
really hard to do. What happens is more often than not, and I've
14:43
helped folks through this before I recognize what was going on.
14:46
I've helped folks do this exact thing. I've helped folks to add
14:50
more system and process that they need than they needed,
14:53
thinking it would help them. And here's what happens every single
14:57
time, and and it's. It's unfortunate because most of the
15:01
time folks can't even see that they've done this until the end.
15:04
Here's how you know, and unfortunately it's at the very
15:07
end. But here's how you know if you were overprocessed when you
15:09
started dealing with whitewater, it's that when you do the things
15:13
that you need to to get out of whitewater, and again they're
15:16
very specific. Read the Predictable Success book. We're
15:18
not really going to talk about what those are too much in this
15:21
series, but there's a ton of great information on it. This
15:24
this one right here looks like this: Predictable Success by Les
15:27
McEwen. When you do all of those things, you can check all the
15:34
boxes. You can have a great org chart, perfect job descriptions,
15:38
crystal clear strategy on how you're going to get to
15:40
predictable success, and you'll add all of that system and
15:44
structure, and it will amount to absolutely nothing. Your
15:48
organization won't grow any faster on the other side of it.
15:54
It's crazy. When and and that's not because those things don't
15:58
work. Because if I take an organization that's
16:00
overoperated, and even some that are overvisioned, and I put them
16:03
through the that same course, that same set of practices, and
16:09
and same set of processes, and same set of structures. Most of
16:13
them will something like triple their bottom line. Some of them
16:16
will double their revenue in the first year after doing that. The
16:20
transformation is unbelievable when you do the right things at
16:25
the right time, but if you try and do all of those things early
16:30
because you arbitrarily push yourself into whitewater by
16:32
putting too much system and process on your operators, it's
16:36
not going to work.
16:39
So the second big reason why folks end up in whitewater
16:43
prematurely, and I think it's going to be the first big reason
16:46
very soon, is that they they take all of the talk in our
16:50
world now about systems and processes, systems and
16:53
processes, systems and processes, and they take those
16:56
big heavy braking systems and they stick them on their little
16:59
mountain bike and they're pedaling harder than ever and
17:02
not getting anywhere. And so, if you're sitting there thinking,
17:06
here's probably the best way that you can diagnose this ahead
17:08
of time. If you're sitting there thinking, "Hey, we've really
17:12
invested in systems and processes, and honestly, I think
17:16
they're good systems and processes, but I can't tell a
17:18
difference. We're not any more profitable. We're not any. We're
17:21
not. Our revenue is not growing like crazy. We're still not able
17:25
to scale. If you added all of those, there's a chance that you
17:28
added the wrong ones. But there's also a good chance that
17:33
you added the right ones at the wrong time. You added them too
17:36
soon. Here's another thing, and we talked about this in the
17:39
previous episode, but it applies here as well. If you end up
17:43
overprocessed and in whitewater, one of the ways to tell that you
17:46
did it too soon is to look at how many people you have on your
17:50
team, because while it's not perfect, the head count should
17:56
give us a decent way of approximating complexity, and if
18:02
you're sitting there and you've got great systems and processes,
18:05
and there's 15 or 20 of you on the team, and that's bigger than
18:08
it's ever been before, but you are drowning in whitewater.
18:12
There's you're dropping the ball over the stuff. Stuff's going
18:15
wrong. Your systems and processes aren't working. You
18:18
probably have too much system and process. You've probably
18:21
tried to overcompensate for a lack of competent process. I'm
18:25
sorry, operators. A lack of competent or quality operators.
18:30
You've tried to compensate for that by adding a bunch of system
18:32
and process to something. You've overcooked it, and you still
18:36
don't have enough operator to grow. Well, if that's you, what
18:40
do you do? And just like if you're overvisioned, what you
18:44
have to do is you actually have to go back before you go
18:47
forward. It's kind of like you were driving down the road next
18:51
to a river, and there was a bunch of rapids over here, and
18:53
they're not the ones that you want to be in, but they look
18:56
kind of fun. And instead of driving down the road at 60
18:59
miles an hour, you all jumped out and got into the rapids, and
19:02
you're just bouncing around for no reason at all. Let's get back
19:06
on the road. You're going to move a lot faster on the road.
19:09
How do we do that? We actually do that by not necessarily just
19:15
lessening system and process, because that's kind of an
19:17
arbitrary thing. We just like let's just abolish processes.
19:21
Instead, what I want you to do is not think so much about
19:24
lessening system and process, but about increasing the
19:28
operatorness of your organization, and that's going
19:32
to happen in two different ways. First, you're going to have to
19:34
make sure you have good operators on the team, or go get
19:37
some. Then, what you want to do is take your decision making,
19:43
your systems, your processes, your products, everything that
19:46
you do, and I want you to run it through this filter. What can we
19:50
do to this to help our operators succeed even more? How can we
19:56
simplify what we're doing so that our operators can? Succeed
20:00
even more, and when you use quality operators as the lens,
20:06
as the litmus test for whether you need a system or not,
20:09
whether you need a process or not, whether you need another
20:12
idea or not, when you really focus in on just equipping those
20:17
really great operators to go get stuff done, not to be super
20:21
strategic, not to be the most innovative, but to go and sell
20:27
and deliver and sell and deliver and sell and deliver and sell
20:30
and deliver until you have a gigantic organization that's
20:33
wonderful in every way. I'm being a little facetious, but
20:36
you get the point. Go find the operators and then refine all of
20:43
what you do, from how you make decisions to what checklists you
20:47
have.
20:48
Refine all of that using the lens. How can we make this serve
20:52
our operators better? And then listen. They will tell you what
20:57
sucks, and they're probably right. At least, if they're a
21:01
quality operator and they're complaining about something,
21:04
well, sometimes quality operators complain, so we have
21:06
to be a little careful with this. But even so, if they're
21:10
complaining about something and they're saying, "Hey, that's not
21:13
necessary. That's too much. Why are we doing that? It's too
21:16
complicated, then at least listen. At least listen, because
21:22
they very well may be onto something, and so that's what
21:26
happens when we're overprocessed. We end up in
21:28
whitewater prematurely. We set ourselves on a path for doing
21:31
all the right things and getting none of the right results, and
21:33
that's miserable. You don't want to be there. Instead, what we
21:36
can do is get out of whitewater, get back on the highway, and get
21:41
a lot bigger, a lot more successful, and have a ton of
21:45
fun doing it. This I'm realizing that this is coming across a
21:50
little negative, but it really shouldn't. I actually get
21:52
really, really excited when I come across an organization that
21:56
is prematurely in whitewater because I can recognize pretty
21:59
quickly they don't actually need to go through whitewater. They
22:03
don't need to do the the open heart surgery that is the the
22:08
stuff of getting through whitewater to predictable
22:10
success. They don't have to do that right now. I can look at an
22:13
organization and recognize, hey, they've got another five or 10
22:17
years of fun ahead of them. Let's go back there and crush
22:23
it. And again, you'll see organizations that can get four
22:26
times as large without tipping back into whitewater.
22:30
Legitimately, literally seen that, and that could be the same
22:34
for you. So, if you're overprocessed, it's important to
22:37
recognize that you probably are a big part of putting you there,
22:41
you might like process a little bit more than you should, and if
22:44
that's the case, then we just need to tap the brakes on the
22:48
brakes. We need to we need to chill out on the system and
22:51
structure, and we just need to find some good people, and we
22:55
need to help manage them well, and that's what's going to help
22:58
those of you who are overprocessed and end up ended
23:01
up in whitewater because of it to get back to fun and
23:04
thoroughly enjoy both being in fun and growing in fun. It can
23:08
be very cool. With that, that sets us up for the third most
23:14
likely reason or the third wrong way to get into whitewater, and
23:20
this is the one that nonprofits struggle with almost all the
23:24
time. So, if you're a nonprofit leader in particular, or if
23:28
you're a very people-oriented leader, even if you're in the
23:31
for-profit world, then you are not going to want to miss the
23:35
next episode in this series because this is what happens to
23:38
people leaders that causes them to accidentally get into
23:42
whitewater way too soon. I'll show you what it is, why it
23:46
happens, and what you can do about it. All that in the next
23:48
episode. I'll see you there. Hey everyone, Scott Ritzheimer here.
23:55
Thank you so much for listening to the Start Scale and Succeed
23:58
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review. It helps us reach more founders like you, and let's be
24:30
honest, it means a ton to me, my team, and all our incredible
24:34
guests. So keep starting, scaling, and succeeding, and
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I'll see you in the next episode.