Latest / Resilience and Relationships (R&R) / Navigating the Controversy of Ethical Pedophilia - Resilience & Relationships (R&R) - Stephanie Olson and Rebecca Saunders

Transcript

Navigating the Controversy of Ethical Pedophilia - Resilience & Relationships (R&R) - Stephanie Olson and Rebecca Saunders · Resilience and Relationships (R&R)

• 0:17
  Stephanie Olson: Hi, hello and welcome to resilience and relationships. I am Stephanie Olson. I'm here with
• 0:23
  Unknown: Rebecca Saunders. Okay, we are start
• 0:27
  Stephanie Olson: this one off with a bang. We are talking buckle buckle up. Yes, we're talking today about ethical pedophilia. So I'm going to, that's like, the last time I'm going to say that word, we'll just call it EP from here on out. But wow, there is just a lot of stuff on this. And it's a it's a really controversial topic to some extent. So let's just dive in. I'm going to start with a definition or a framework of what that is, because I have a feeling that when I said those two words together, people what, I'm sorry, what? And that's what I hear a lot when we're discussing this, or when I'm discussing this with people, but it is a thing. Well, it's it's a thing. It's a term. That's a great way to say that. So I am going to read a definition, essentially based on a research journal that was written in October of 2025 called the General Theory of EP out of Oakland University. And it says this paper outlines a theoretical framework termed EP which posits a distinction between the experience of head attraction and the criminal act of child. Essay. So it's making a distinction essentially between the act of PED versus the non act versus the
• 2:05
  Unknown: so just having desire, having doing, right, right.
• 2:11
  Stephanie Olson: And now I struggle with the term, because for so many reasons, and I guess this is what I would say to that, I do think that there are people who have desires and feelings that are not healthy. I mean, they're just not a healthy thing. And so to define it as EP kind of legitimizes it, and we're going to talk about some more of the terms. But have you heard of the term ethical serial killer? Ethical serial killer? I mean, seriously, like, No, I haven't heard that term because having the desire or feelings of wanting to kill people is problematic, and we really should be getting that person into therapy. Now, my understanding, and I'll, I'll kind of let you respond to this, but my understanding is, most of the studies around this and most of the conversation around this is to get help for that person.
• 3:14
  Stephanie Olson: Is that correct? Is that what you're seeing,
• 3:18
  Unknown: but most, but not all, from what I've seen. Okay, okay, so just looking into it for this episode, and seeing about PP or some of the other terms out there, which we'll get into.
• 3:31
  Unknown: There are many that say are some resources for you, including therapy or support groups, which there are wide variances in what therapy can mean, so be cautious. There is this, someone who is affirming that or not, we never truly know until you dig deeper into it. But there are also other resources that are saying, you know, you're not bad for how you feel. This is perfectly normal, perfectly natural. And I would argue, no, it is not. Yeah.
• 4:00
  Stephanie Olson: Okay, so, so let's separate those two, because I think those are really important things that you just said so you're not bad for how you feel. Is one statement, right? And then this is perfectly normal, is another statement. And so I would say, Yeah, you're not bad for how you feel in and of itself, right? I mean, feelings are something that we can't necessarily control. But I think the thing that makes us the human race above the rest of the animal kingdom is that we have the ability to rise above our feelings. Yes, and I think that's probably in part, what EP is saying, what people who support EP is saying. However, I do think there are some feelings that are more dangerous. US than others. And if I feel, for example, like I want to have an affair, which I don't, by the way, but if I feel that, I can rise above that feeling and say that is not what I choose to do, I choose to behave in a different way. But I do think there's a difference between, say, having the feelings of wanting to be a serial killer and somebody who desires to I mean, legitimately, what we're saying is somebody who desires to essay children,
• 5:36
  Unknown: right, right? That's what we're saying, right? That's what it is. Yeah, language is important, and we have to be very careful with our language.
• 5:44
  Unknown: You know, there are things that are problems, even with the affair. Example, the desire of wanting to have an affair is pointing to a deeper problem in the marriage, right, right? We shouldn't say it's totally normal to want to or
• 6:00
  Stephanie Olson: a deeper problem in the marriage or in the person? Yes, it could just be a problem within the person, right?
• 6:08
  Unknown: Something that needs healing there, right? Right? So if I tell you it's totally normal to want to cheat on your husband, that's totally normal.
• 6:14
  Unknown: Don't think twice about it. I'm not actually helping you, right?
• 6:17
  Unknown: I'm avoiding the Pro, like I'm helping you avoid the problem.
• 6:21
  Unknown: To really help you would be to say, This is not normal, this is not healthy. Let's look at why you're feeling this way.
• 6:30
  Stephanie Olson: Right? Exactly.
• 6:30
  Stephanie Olson: Yeah, that's a really, that's a really good point. I like that.
• 6:33
  Stephanie Olson: So, so that's a, that's a interesting example, I guess, the affair, so I look at both of them. Okay, so we've brought up two examples outside of EP, right? We've brought up a fair and we've brought up serial killers. I'm a true crime fan. I Yes, I sometimes fall asleep to serial killer interviews I do, I will admit it, the difference, though, between the two is when I'm having so Okay, so let me just, I'm I'm gonna go here, because my mind is just whirling with ideas. So if I'm having an affair against my husband, or I'm having an affair on my husband, he doesn't have a choice in that, right? If I am a serial killer, the people I decide to kill do not have a choice in that. And same with essay, no one has a choice in that. I think the biggest difference, though, in all of those is that the individual that I am having an affair with that's probably consensual, right? That's going to be a consensual thing, and the damage that is done to my husband, is certainly awful, and it would be terrible, but I would argue that it's not debilitating for the person, right? I mean, I suppose it could be, I don't know, but ultimately I see it as a different sort of betrayal than actual murder, which is debilitating for not only that person, but the whole family, and then essay which is also debilitating, like it literally changes everything. And so I'm not sure those are the same examples, but I do think that you know, when we're talking about all of those things. The point is their feelings and desires. But we have to, I think we don't want to do anything to make those desires seem okay in any of those scenarios. Those aren't okay.
• 8:55
  Unknown: If my friend comes to me and says, you know, don't tell anybody. But I really sometimes get a desire to hurt another person. Okay, I want to get you help. You're still a person with intrinsic value, but I'm going to be horrified by that statement, as I should be that should lose that shock.
• 9:15
  Unknown: Wow, Ooh, that's good.
• 9:18
  Stephanie Olson: You know, Can I say something that's probably not a popular thing to say. So I apologize in advance. Shame isn't always bad. I mean, yeah, we talk about shame and blame a lot when it comes to things like essay or HT that we talk about on a daily basis. Those are things that we should not have shame for. We shouldn't be blaming a person for. Those are things that are done to them, and it is not the individual's fault that has been victimized.
• 9:52
  Stephanie Olson: So any type of victim blaming, victim shaming, never the response. Responsibility of the person who has been victimized.
• 10:01
  Stephanie Olson: But if I do something like, Okay, let's go back to the affair. If I have an affair, okay? And I just feel bad because I just not, yeah, I'm not thinking about having. There has been no thought of having.
• 10:16
  Stephanie Olson: I'm not having an affair. It's just a good example for me. But in the idea of affair, if I have an affair, I should feel shame.
• 10:27
  Stephanie Olson: I think that there are times when we do things that are wrong, and we should feel some shame that we did something wrong that doesn't necessarily make us a bad person. That doesn't mean but that's where the that's where true. You know, I am so sorry. I will never do this again. Whatever that should that comes out of a place of shame, right?
• 10:54
  Unknown: Yeah, I mean to have any kind of remorse that shame comes first, and you're right, it's not, it's not always a bad thing. I think it can be a very healthy thing to have shame.
• 11:04
  Unknown: Now, of course, that there are situations where maybe someone feels ashamed for everything or things that were not their fault. That's right, right?
• 11:09
  Unknown: Absolutely, person should have a healthy level of shame when they are considering the things that they've done wrong or the the ways that they've hurt other people, or sometimes, yes, even our thoughts. If you have a thought that is very negative or a desire to do something harmful, yes, there should be a level of shame there. You can still get help, though. And I yeah, what is happening with this big push? We can talk more about it too in a minute, but with a minor attractive person's language map, for short, which is probably what I'll say, because we got to be careful with our words, just on the platforms, not to get taken down, but with the whole push for the map language, instead of the P word that we commonly know, you know, I think a lot of it comes out of we should not have any shame. We want to erase the shame. Shame is not bad on its own. Yeah, and there. It doesn't have to be one or the other. I think we don't have to completely normalize and erase shame in order for someone to get help. There can be a level of shame for what I'm feeling, and I don't want to act on this, and I can still receive help, right?
• 12:20
  Stephanie Olson: Absolutely. So, you know, I think a lot of the studies that I see and the difference between map and ped that they're saying is that map defines somebody who is attracted to children, PED is somebody who has acted on it.
• 12:42
  Stephanie Olson: And that's, that's, I think, what they're saying or and I think that's why, when we looked up some of the information on EP, a lot of that terminology is moving towards map, because EP is essentially somebody who's not acted on it, but then head is somebody who has. So how do you feel about that? I mean, What? What? Because I get the mindset behind it, I worry, I guess, about the the potential acceptance of it,
• 13:20
  Unknown: yeah, and that that's the reality, is that there is a push for exceptions, and not by everyone. I mean, you can just Google and you'll see that there are several, like, an alarming amount of websites out there specifically for maps. And there's an array of opinions on those. There are people who are saying, You need to get help if you're feeling this, those are a little bit more rare. But then there are people who are saying, you know, this is who you are. I mean, it even goes on the other side of the spectrum to having merch stores where you can talk
• 13:52
  Stephanie Olson: about that. Go ahead, tell what you what you found.
• 13:56
  Unknown: So I think it was about last week, um, which, you know, I don't know when this will get posted, but a week prior to today, I was able to look at this website, and it had a merch store for minor attracted people, and I didn't take any screenshots that I probably should have, but there were hats or shirts like proud map and just really trying to take A sense of pride in this portion of their identity. And now, when I went to look it up for this episode, it says it's under maintenance, and you can't see any of the products.
• 14:29
  Stephanie Olson: I'm guessing that, you know, we have a store, and it always goes, not always, but ours goes through a third party. I'm guessing the third party. And this is a guess I do not know. I do not know, but my guess is the third party crackdown on it and stopped it because, yeah, gotta tell you.
• 14:51
  Stephanie Olson: And I think we come from a place of protecting youth. I mean, that's, that's our, that's our whole MO The. That that we want to protect youth. And unfortunately, I think if we start making a way for people to be proud of the fact that they are a map, we are going to run into some serious problems. And unfortunately, children are going to suffer,
• 15:18
  Unknown: absolutely correct.
• 15:18
  Unknown: Yeah, anytime that we want to accept the shameful things that happens, and I'm saying, I feel like there's probably a better way to say this, but there are dangerous How about dangerous?
• 15:34
  Unknown: That's better when we accept dangerous things or even dangerous desires, wishes as our identity that's going to feed into it and make it bigger. You know, whatever you focus on is then training your brain to focus on it more. So if I'm a person who maybe has struggled with this, and I'm not, but let's say that I am and and I'm a person that says, maybe in the initial stages, I'm saying, oh my goodness, I just had an inappropriate thought about a child. I don't know what I'm going to do, and I'm going online looking for support. And then I see a support group of people who are saying, Oh, me too, me too, me too. Okay. I don't feel alone anymore. And I'm talking to them. And then I start thinking, Oh, well, I've never thought about this particular thing. Maybe I like that too, or maybe I like this too, and this portion of my identity is growing larger and larger. And then what happens next? When I come across the website where, oh, there's they're selling hats and shirts.
• 16:36
  Unknown: Oh, my goodness, I should be proud of this. Not only am I not the only one experiencing this, it is something to be embraced.
• 16:41
  Unknown: It is something to publicize. I am so proud of this part of my identity, and I continue to focus on it. It grows and grows and grows. That's not safe.
• 16:50
  Stephanie Olson: Yeah, I think when you call those things identities, it becomes problematic. And again, I'm going to liken it to the serial killer. That's the only thing I can think of that just, is that that blatant to me? Because we are not talking about, I guess, okay, here's, here's. So this is such a hard topic for me because I don't understand it. I mean, I'm just going to be honest, hard to understand for me, and I'm okay with that, but, but I saw a documentary on EPS some time ago, and I think it first started getting a lot of attention when a woman did a TED talk on it. And that TED talk is now hard or impossible to find, but it was a TED talk on EP, and it was talking about these very things, and it kind of blew up, and then people were outraged, and it got taken down. Well, there was a documentary on EPS that I found, and it was about a man who was called himself an EP had not acted on it, or at least had not acted on it. In some time, I think he lived in a trailer park area that housed other EPS. And the thing that disturbed me about this was had drawings that he had created of children. It was legit child essay images. So, so that's what he drew himself. Yes, He created them, and he used that as his outlet. So goes back to you saying, what you feed grows, and I think right there that is feeding it. Instead of saying, Okay, I am going to get therapy or whatever, so that this isn't my attraction anymore. It's really hard because I can't help but think of when I when I say these words, I can't help but think of the LGBTQ plus community, and what I don't want to do is liken this identity with being gay. I don't want to liken those two things, because I don't view them as the same thing at all. But sometimes the language, I think it kind of sounds like that's what we're saying. But that's why I keep liking it to serial killing, because some people would call that an identity too.
• 19:39
  Unknown: I don't know thoughts on that, yeah, thinking about that drawing, I think you're absolutely right that it does feed in. And I've seen, I've seen similar things on, you know, maybe they'll have a doll or something of that nature. And I heard one person say, and I can't remember, I heard it. I think it was on a video that he.
• 19:58
  Unknown: View that as practicing for the ACT. Yes, and that's how I see it, too. I do too. Yes, you're not hurting anyone in this moment. You're practicing for when you will, and even if that's not your intention in the moment, like your training. This is hard to talk about.
• 20:18
  Stephanie Olson: It is so hard.
• 20:18
  Stephanie Olson: Yeah, no, I think, I think you're right. Okay.
• 20:22
  Unknown: I think, yeah, go ahead. Sorry. From my understanding, one of the big arguments that has pretty much always been about this topic is, well, it's not hurting anyone.
• 20:35
  Unknown: If I can control it, what do you say to that?
• 20:37
  Stephanie Olson: Can you control it? So I'm going to read this.
• 20:40
  Stephanie Olson: This is from an article from the safer society foundation. Now I'm going to go on record to say I know nothing about the author or safer society foundation, but in the research, I found this, and I think he says an interesting thing, and this is what you're talking about. It's called, What's in a Name is is a piece of the article, and it says many, including myself, not myself, this author, are ambivalent about the term map.
• 21:11
  Stephanie Olson: My own thinking has to do with the vagueness of the language.
• 21:14
  Stephanie Olson: Many on social media have felt that it normalizes essay and children, or actually, they called it s interest in children, when, in fact, its intention is the opposite. To listen to these individuals. The common message is It's bad enough that we have these thoughts and urges that we don't want people or please we need help and understanding to prevent abuse. Entire self help networks have come into being because so few people are willing to provide treatment, which I get. I think it's a hard thing to provide treatment for, because, as I have talked to many people, there is a diff, something different in the brain, just like if you look at a serial killer's brain, it looks different than the brain of a healthy human being. It's the same thing with individual that commit sexual violence.
• 22:03
  Stephanie Olson: Many people with a say to attraction to children have said that the term map empowers them in their efforts to prevent them from causing harm. Everyone's opinion will vary. Mine is that I don't really care what's in a name if we have shared goal of preventing child abuse. So I think that is an interesting thing at the very end, it says he's saying it's not enabling or normalizing this kind of language. Steering away from shaming language is not the same thing as enabling or normalizing. Hopefully, we can call each other by name and focus on the task of preventing essay public shaming and hatred of people will only send them further underground and make matters worse. And that I do agree with, I don't think, yeah, there's, there's no need ever to public shame somebody to, you know, we already know where they live, right? People who have been convicted anyway. There's no need to harass them or things like that. That is and we have to remember all these people have intrinsic value, yes, and I think that's the key piece. I I just I, and I do understand the difference, like saying the difference between map and ped, because a PED, technically, is someone who has committed a crime, yeah, who was abused. So I get there's a difference. I don't know it's, it's a tough one, I
• 23:38
  Unknown: think, in an ideal world, which is not the world we live in. In an ideal world, yes, everyone would see that no matter what you may be struggling with, your intrinsic value does not change, and that's something that we hold tight to. You know, it doesn't matter what who the person is, or what they've done, or what they've said, or you do have an intrinsic value in an ideal world, I think we would be able to say, Okay, if you are having those feelings, we're not going to say it's normal. We're going to say, let's get you help. But also, there can be some safeguards in place, right?
• 24:13
  Unknown: Like, yes, we are happy to get you help and connect you to resources that can help you work through this problem. We're not going to feed into it. We're not going to view images online or things like that that will feed into it, you know, we're going to work on shrinking that desire and see how we can help you. And also, at the same time, I don't think you should be working at the school,
• 24:39
  Stephanie Olson: you know, 100% it's okay. Gift cards in there.
• 24:42
  Stephanie Olson: Agree, I agree, you know, and I think that's a really important thing. I'm a recovering alcoholic. The last place I would go work is a bar. I mean, I'm just not going to do it.
• 24:53
  Stephanie Olson: It's not a wise decision. And I think my problem with some. Of these, because there are some groups that are absolutely trying to push for maps being okay, like it is. It is legal to act on that, and we know those groups are out there, and so to pretend they're not present, I think, is dangerous and not wise. And yet, at the same time, I do understand that there are people out there who do have these desires and tractions for whatever reason, we can't make them feel good about it, like make them feel good about them as a human being, they can't feel good about that well.
• 25:40
  Unknown: And I think even something as simple as saying, I struggle with this versus I am this, yes, yes,
• 25:50
  Stephanie Olson: I agree, and I and I think that truly is one of the you know, I Okay. So now you just caught me in something, because I have to think through that, because I say I'm a recovering alcoholic, and I've had people challenge me on that.
• 26:07
  Stephanie Olson: Actually, I've had people say you're not an alcoholic anymore, or don't say that you've been healed, or whatever the case may be. And the reality is, I know I'm one drink away from a from being a drunk again. And so I say I am a recovering alcoholic to remind myself that I am one drink away so I understand the labels. To some extent, what I would never do is put that label in front of every other thing I am like, I'm not going to tell people I'm the CEO of the set me free project. I'm a proud wife and mom of three kids, and I'm a recovering alcoholic. That's not a thing I'm going to say as I'm introducing myself not because I'm ashamed of it, I'm not, but because that is not my identity.
• 27:08
  Stephanie Olson: And I think that's the key.
• 27:08
  Stephanie Olson: That's the difference. Like I will label myself as such, it's not my identity,
• 27:16
  Unknown: and maybe that's so this is kind of jumping to a different direction, but there's one piece of this that I don't feel we've covered yet, which is there are also groups for minor maps. So this is defined as someone who is under 18, who is attracted to a child more than five years younger than them. So there are support groups and websites for this specifically, but what I've noticed is a lot of those support groups are connected to a larger Math Community. So it's let's have one of our advocates who is also attracted to minors, help you minor and your attraction of younger miners.
• 28:01
  Stephanie Olson: Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, yes, whoa. Okay, that just hit me like a ton of bricks. So in other words, there they have access. We're providing access, and
• 28:18
  Unknown: not all sides have this. I've seen some of the ones who like I ran across one website, and it was talking very similar to what you were saying earlier. If we are very against child abuse, there is no open chat, there is no connecting of members. But then there's another one where, yes, that's exactly what it is. We will connect you to someone older than you who feels this way so you can work through your feelings
• 28:41
  Stephanie Olson: that should not be happening one on one. Like, I am all for support groups, and you have to remove the obstacles. And again, if I go back to the alcoholic thing, like, okay, aa, you're in a group of people. You might have a sponsor that you meet with, but I'll tell you where you're not going to meet with the sponsor. You're not going to go to a bar and meet with the sponsor. I mean, you've got to remove the obstacles, whatever those obstacles are, I think, if I'm struggling with addiction to sugar, and I'm talking to somebody one on one, and saying, I haven't, I need some help and support. We're probably not going to go to a bakery. I mean, it just, it's, you've got to remove the obstacles. Wow, yeah.
• 29:34
  Unknown: I think what I've learned through this, through just researching for this episode, is that there are a lot of different belief systems even about this terminology and how to proceed with that attraction within the same group. Does that make sense? I don't know if that said it's made any sense at all.
• 29:54
  Stephanie Olson: Yes, yes, you're saying that within maps there are a lot of. Different ideas behind it, belief systems?
• 30:02
  Stephanie Olson: Yeah, absolutely, that does not surprise me. I guess bottom line for me is I am grateful that there are people who are available to support and help them, not offend. That is a very good thing. I am grateful that there are maps out there that are committed to not offending.
• 30:26
  Stephanie Olson: That's awesome. I also know that we have to be very mindful, because there are people out there that want to offend, and that agree that believe that it is okay to offend, and regardless of where you are on that spectrum, our youth don't get to choose, right? And so if somebody does offend and commits essay, the person that is offended against does not get a choice in that period. I don't care how old they are, they are not able to consent if they are a child. And we can't forget that. No, that is so bad. I think about Mary Kay LeTourneau, which I don't know you may be too young to remember, but for those of you who do remember who I'm talking about, it's the teacher who was, I want to say, in the 90s, she was arrested for having a relationship with her 12 year old student. He was in sixth grade when the relationship began. She went to prison. She got out of prison, said she wouldn't offend again.
• 31:47
  Stephanie Olson: She did. Got pregnant with his child, went back into prison, finally did get out, and they got married and had two kids, and she recently died of cancer.
• 32:04
  Stephanie Olson: And of course, now he is a adult, he's a dad, but it's clear listening to him, there was trauma there. And exactly, and I think that's a big and, and there are interviews with her, and it would be interesting, actually, to react to an interview with her, maybe that will be one of our podcasts, because she does not consider herself, or she did not consider herself a pet at all.
• 32:31
  Stephanie Olson: She did not see it because they were in love and she could not wrap her mind around the fact that he could not consent. He couldn't consent. So it was and so then once, so he's 12 years old, when all this happened. So clearly there was grooming. He can't consent, right? And so he's he's now an adult, and they get married, is He? Is he consenting, or is there coercion? And so it's all of the stuff that we talk about, that force, fraud and coercion, piece of any sort of sexual violence, or ht, or anything like that.
• 33:18
  Stephanie Olson: Once you are in that grooming process. You're not the same person who comes out, and so can you as an adult, you can consent, of course. But are you consenting purely? Do you have you consent made without any coercion at all? It's, it's just a really, yeah, we should watch that and have a conversation.
• 33:43
  Stephanie Olson: It's a fascinating interview and sad actually, but yeah, so that's I guess that's my there are people who have no problem offending and might say that they know what they did was wrong, but don't really understand what they did was wrong. Wow. That's a lot to think about. It's a lot to think about. This was a heavy one.
• 34:04
  Stephanie Olson: This was, geez, okay, let's not promote it as something positive. It's not let's just protect our children. I think that's the bottom line. There's been enough harm done. And my guess is a lot of those maps might have been abused too.
• 34:25
  Stephanie Olson: There's a strong link, yeah, so let's not continue the cycle.
• 34:31
  Stephanie Olson: But okay, well, this was, this was a lot, but I think it's an interesting conversation. We would love to hear your thoughts on this. I know it is weirdly controversial, too, but I don't know why. So I don't know why that's controversial, but anyway, but yeah. Well, thank you, Rebecca, if
• 34:56
  Unknown: you're watching on YouTube, comment, we'd love to have a dialog about this. Just.
• 34:58
  Unknown: Us. Yes, anything that we didn't mention today, that you want to explore further, let us know too, and we can always record more. We would
• 35:06
  Stephanie Olson: love it, all right. Well, with that, get some R and R, and we will see you next time. Bye. You.