Latest / The Wild Idea / Jessica Howell-Edwards & Dani Purvis: Fighting for the Wild Soul of Cumberland Island

Transcript

Jessica Howell-Edwards & Dani Purvis: Fighting for the Wild Soul of Cumberland Island · The Wild Idea

• 0:00
  [upbeat music] Welcome to another conversation for a wild and connected world, what we call The Wild Idea podcast. My name is Bill Hodge, and along with my friend and co-host Anders Reynolds, uh, we've been on this journey of digging into the intersection of wild nature and our own human nature. While we're recording, a huge journey is literally taking off, Anders.
• 0:24
  Oh, hi, Bill.
• 0:26
  Yeah. You're talking about the fact that as we record this thing, if everything goes right, Artemis II is gonna take off carrying four human beings back to the moon for the first time in, like, 50 years, and, like, it, it couldn't be more well timed because I have a feeling some of this conversation with Jessica and Danny from Wild Cumberland is gonna focus on moonlight, and in particular, the way it, uh, helps sea turtles, uh, to navigate safely at sea, um, the way that that navigation can be disrupted by artificial lighting on the coast. So I mean, the timing couldn't be better. Do you consider the moon a wilderness area?
• 1:12
  It obviously is in a, in a larger sense, uh, but [laughs] if we would... It would be nice to think about not despoiling that, uh, that celestial object. Um, something tells me we'll get around to despoiling it at some point, but, uh, it sure, sure would be nice to keep our hands off, for sure.
• 1:30
  There are some valuable moon minerals up there, Bill, and I wanna get my hands on them. And not only that, but I think there should be some cherry stems for moon buggy use. I mean, look, I'm okay with 98% of the moon being wilderness, but if I could get up there to do some moon buggying, you, I would do that in a heartbeat.
• 1:49
  It looked like fun, didn't it? A little moon golf, right?
• 1:52
  A little moon golf. Um, you know, our friend Doug Scott always said driving that Cherohala Skyway between Chattanooga and Asheville was a wilderness experience, and I think that's one way to, to defend the moon buggy and these cherry stems is like you're driving along, hopping and bopping with your buddy Bill, and, you know, you're having a wilderness experience.
• 2:14
  Oh, wow, we really do [laughs] digress, uh, talking about the moon.
• 2:18
  This is important stuff. Bill, by the way, you know that famous picture, um, Earthrise, right?
• 2:27
  I do. I do.
• 2:27
  It's, it's... Okay. It's the picture taken during the Apollo 8 mission. Um, and nature photographer Galen Rowell has described it as the most influential environmental picture ever taken. But did you know, fun fact, who took that picture?
• 2:44
  I, I didn't know. I don't... I can't name who took that picture.
• 2:47
  You don't have to look any further than our own names.
• 2:51
  Oh. T- do tell.
• 2:55
  Okay. It was taken from lunar orbit by Astronaut William,
• 3:01
  maybe Bill, I don't know if he went by Bill. William Anders.
• 3:05
  Wow.
• 3:05
  Okay.
• 3:07
  So
• 3:08
  m- he... So he took the most influential environmental photograph ever taken, and Bill and Anders are recording the most influential environmental podcast [laughs] ever recorded.
• 3:19
  [laughs]
• 3:20
  It's perfect, perfect symmetry.
• 3:22
  [laughs] I, I think, I think you summed it up perfectly.
• 3:25
  [laughs]
• 3:25
  It is a, it is a... That is perfect, perfect symmetry. We got so much symmetry going on with the, the fact that we're recording and we're gonna be talking about sea turtles and, and the, the moon launch. The day after this podcast episode comes out is Earth Day. You know, and you think about... I think Galen Rowell's quote about that photo is, is spot on. It is the probably most important photo because you realize every human that's ever lived was on that dot that's in that photo. It's not so much a dot, but makes you just realize that all of our problems we have to solve together and, uh, uh-
• 4:02
  Yeah, you're, you're sorta conflating that picture with the pale blue dot thing that, that Carl Sagan did about, you know, everybody that's ever lived, every, you know, king, every queen, every tyrant has spent their entire life, [laughs] their entire existence on this tiny speck of dust in the middle of the universe.
• 4:20
  But it's also true for that photo, right? Like, it-
• 4:23
  It's true
• 4:23
  ... it's, that, that, that shot of the Earth, and it's a beautiful shot. If you haven't seen it, folks, just Google Earthrise photo. It is a stunning shot of the Earth as seen from lunar orbit, as Anders said. And, um, it's just a reminder, um, that we only have that one place. I know that people think we're gonna go live other places, but we have this one place.
• 4:44
  And while you're googling, please also google Bill and Anders' podcast, The Wild Idea. That'd be really helpful, too.
• 4:51
  Yeah. That, that's a great point. Google us. We're kind of a big deal.
• 4:56
  [laughs]
• 4:57
  Speaking of a big deal, [laughs] let's have a conversation with who we're actually here to have a conversation with instead of just each other. Great episode for you guys today, talking about Cumberland Island, a national seashore, a significant part of the National Wilderness Preservation System, having that conversation with Jessica Howe Edwards and Danny Purvis, and let's get to it. Jessica and Danny, welcome to the Wild Idea podcast. Such a, a great treat to have you guys on, and, and, and thanks for joining us today.
• 5:24
  Jessica and Danny, I'm so happy you're here. Anybody that knows anything about me knows that Cumberland Island is one of my favorite places, and, um, the two of you are probably most responsible for introducing me to that landscape. So I'm very, very, very, very happy you're here with us today. Um, Jessica, I'm gonna start with you, and I'm gonna ask you to do the impossible and describe the indescribable. Um, for folks who have not yet been to Cumberland Island, what's it like? There are live oaks, right? And salt-pruned pines and of course sawtooth palmettos, but what else would a visitor find out there? Tell us about it.
• 6:02
  Oh, a visitor to Cumberland Island, uh, will encounter, uh, more than three hundred species of birds, um, eighteen miles of undeveloped shoreline, uh, more than probably twenty thousand acres of Live Oak maritime forest. Uh, they're gonna encounter wildlife at every turn, uh, deep, thick saw palmetto forest and Spanish moss that is almost impenetrable in places. It's really a breathtaking location.
• 6:34
  But there are things that are less wild out there too, right? We've got feral horses. We've got, like, the spooky remains of a Vanderbilt mansion, and of course, we've got tons of visitors that have to take a ferry out to one of the docks on the island, right?
• 6:48
  This is accurate, yes.
• 6:51
  [sighs] You would probably, um, be most likely to encounter a bicycle or e-bike as you would be to encounter a feral horse these days. Uh, but both are, are definitely an attraction for visitors.
• 7:04
  Dani, I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit more about the history of the island. When was the National Seashore established? What was Congress's intent in doing so? And can you tell us a little bit more about the wealthy private interests on the island?
• 7:20
  Yeah. So the National Park Service established the Cumberland Island National Seashore in nineteen seventy-two. And at the time that they negotiated this deal, the island was mostly owned by private inn holders, um, and a sort of patchwork of private ownership across the island. And, um, the history really goes back to quite a lot of, um, American history on how the country was developed. Um,
• 7:53
  when
• 7:54
  the first settlers, uh, came to the island,
• 7:59
  there were already indigenous communities, the Timucua, uh, residing on the island. And they had some established relationships with the, the Timucua, uh, but really over time and, um, disease and pestilence, eventually the settlers took over control of the island. And it-- And because of the unique geographic location, it's the largest barrier island, uh, along the, uh, Georgia coast, and it's sort of the, the first island you encounter along the archipelago of salt marshes and barrier islands that run along the East Coast. It was a very important place for military purposes for, uh, for the slave trade, and quite a lot of the island was initially agriculture, uh, cotton fields, and, uh, a lot of that labor, of course, was slave labor. Basically, when, when the Carnegies, uh, started buying land on the island, Lucy Carnegie in particular
• 9:36
  wanted to grab up all the land and own the entire island. And that's about thirty-six thousand acres of island. And
• 9:47
  since then, it's been a carve-up of what is considered extremely valuable, rich land. A lot of people don't know that the Georgia coast is as abundant and beautiful and languid as it is.
• 10:07
  And something that I recently learned in doing my homework on the island and its history is that a lot of the islands along the, uh, archipelago of, of Georgia coastal barrier islands were purchased and, um, and shared among some of the wealthiest families in our nation's history. So I think that's an important context to understand for how the National Seashore sort of entered into, um, agreements with the inn holders that existed on the island in nineteen seventy-two. And some of the, the big families that still reside there that have inn holdings on the island include the Candlers, um, who made their money from Coca-Cola, and then the Fosters, who were descendants of the Carnegies. So there's a lot of really big private interests on the island. And it's not a mischaracterization to say that they played important roles in preserving the island. Uh, but I think an, a nuanced interpretation of that is that
• 11:23
  they
• 11:25
  managed and transformed the island for their own purposes and uses. And when the Park Service established the National Seashore,
• 11:37
  that was probably the biggest step that we've taken to conserving the island as it is and protecting its rich ecological and cultural history. So it's, it's a challenge to figure out how to best manage the park in a way that respects the rights of the existing inn holders, the landowners who are part of a retained rights agreement that the Park Service went through negotiations with, with the, the private landownersAt the establishment of the National Seashore, and then the Park Service, and probably the, the biggest stakeholders, which is the American public and those who are, are funding the park.
• 12:26
  Dani, that was really, really a great explanation. I'd love to just add a couple pieces to that I think that maybe will help us contextualize also that I think it's important to remember that the Carnegie family was purchasing, um, land in the southeast in order to escape much of the, uh, pollution and living conditions that were happening during a rapid period of industrialization and where were-- where they were living at the time in Pittsburgh. So I think that context is awfully interesting and important to consider. And also that at one point in time, during the twenty years that preceded the park's establishment, the Carnegie family was interested in selling the-- a bulk of their property to Charles Fraser, who many of you may be familiar with for his development of Hilton Head Island and, and other places along the, the southeastern coast. So, um, it is complicated and nuanced and, you know, moving into the, the place that we are now and the place that we want to be in a hundred years from now is, is something that takes, um, a lot of thoughtfulness, I think, and, and a lot of context for us to try and navigate.
• 13:37
  So I'm gonna go from place to organization. I'm gonna ask you guys to tell us a little bit more about the organization that you're both an important part of. How did Wild Cumberland get started, and what was the North Star then, and how is that North Star any different today for where the organization might be going?
• 13:56
  That's a great question. Uh, thanks, Bill. Wild Cumberland actually, um, was established by, uh, folks who I think understood that our wilderness would require long-term advocacy in order to stay protected. That includes Carol Ruckteschell, um, some of you may be familiar with her work as a marine biologist and naturalist on the sou- on the southeastern coast. But, uh, ultimately, I think that what you see in our organization, which is comprised entirely of volunteers, um, is a group of people who care a lot about a place and have a real sense of place. So we are scientists, we are artists, we are parents, we are people who really want to make sure that one of America's greatest places stays protected. Even as the current executive director, I am also a volunteer. So I feel really privileged to do the work with people like Dani and, and my team every day.
• 14:56
  Wild Cumberland is such a small but mighty group, in my opinion, and the island needs someone like y'all in its corner. Um, you know, I mentioned I first became aware of the landscape years ago, and that was when a private space company was thinking of placing a launchpad near to the island, um, one that would threaten the island's ecology and recreational opportunities in the case of a failed launch. Um, but since that time, the threats have not stopped coming. Um, Bill and I have done our best to cover these threats on the Wildline news briefing that we put out every Friday. Everyone should subscribe to that. And I'm sure that listeners have heard us
• 15:41
  mention both the, the island's Visitor Use Management plan and the more recent scheme by the Park Service to exchange private parcels for public access. Um, Dani, can you tell us a little bit more about those specific threats?
• 15:57
  Yeah. So I'll start with the Visitor Use Management Plan, which we refer to as VUMP.
• 16:04
  There was a, a version of VUMP that was released to the public for a public comment process in twenty twenty-two, and in January of, of twenty twenty-six, they dropped a new iteration of the VUMP that is more or less the same report or the same
• 16:25
  plan, but it's proposing to increase visit-visitor use slightly more than the original plan and lacks a lot of transparency on staffing, funding, safety, um, a lot of integral planning to be able to responsibly implement the, the new Visitor Use Management plan.
• 16:52
  It would effectively
• 16:55
  u-update, and you could think of it as a replacement of the 1984 General Management Plan. Um,
• 17:03
  it also notably lacks any wilderness management plan, which has never been established or adopted at the seashore.
• 17:11
  There, uh, fifty-six percent of the island is designated wilderness or potential wilderness, um, and that was established in 1982, but in that time period, there's never been a wilderness management plan. So the VUMP that has been proposed most recently lacks quite a lot of structure, um, that we're concerned about. Um,
• 17:39
  the long and short of it is that they would essentially more than double the daily visitor cap, uh, from the ferry,
• 17:48
  uh, from three hundred to seven hundred people. It would expand campgrounds and associated infrastructure, including one front country site, a what they're labeling as back country site, but is in some ways easier to access in this plan than, um, the existing front country sites.And one wilderness site. Um, it would also increase development on the islands, including quite a large expansion of, uh, the concessions and, um, and, and stores operating on the island. And it increases quite a lot of zones where people... It, it would essentially authorize bicycle and e-bike use in a way that never has been done. There's been no NEPA review of bicycles and e-bikes on the island, and so it would, it would bypass that process to make sure that that bike and e-bike use, especially around critical habitats or loggerheads, piping clovers, uh, rufa redknots along the shoreline, that we have no way of measuring what that impact would be to those, those species dependent on the shoreline habitats. So there are some aspects of the plan that if you're cherry-picking pieces of it could be really beneficial to increasing access to recreational opportunities. It's, uh, potentially bringing more people to the island, which we are not opposed to. But the way that the plan is laid out is essentially
• 19:38
  one option or, or another. Either we stick with the way that the park is being managed right now, or we adopt all of these changes at once. And we're really concerned about having such extensive impacts on the island without really thoughtful analysis of what those long-term impacts would be. There's not a robust way to monitor those impacts and then implement changes should they find that anything is harmful. And
• 20:09
  there's not a lot of transparency in the plan, including how they've engaged the public in designing these plans, and even the justification for why they're more than doubling visitor use. So there are a lot of things that we're collectively looking at in this plan and questioning the justification, the potential impacts, and, and even just the ability to communicate concerns to the Park Service at this time.
• 20:38
  Well, and I think that's really important, Dani, to point out because I, I didn't do a very good job of setting this up in the beginning, but, uh, you know, Cumberland Island has no paved road, right? It has one primary road that runs the length of the island north to south, um, and was one of the... one of, if not the very first park unit to ever implement a carrying capacity. And that carrying capacity was developed, you know, when the general management plan was written in 1984 to protect both the resource and the visitor experience. So, um, and as Dani mentioned, the, the move towards putting concessions and, and retail and some of these types of use on the island is incongruent with other parts of the general management plan that say, "No concessions are allowed on the island." And that if you reflect back on even the, the originating legislation, as Dani mentioned, in 1972, no parts of the island are supposed to be really developed except for basic visitor purposes.
• 21:39
  So then we, um, jump to 2024 and related but, but not the same plan. It's a little bit confusing because of the overlap of the way that the Park Services proposed these two plans.
• 21:56
  And because neither mentioned the other.
• 21:58
  Right. Right. There's no mention of the 2024 proposed land exchange in the 2026 FOMP, uh, but they, they are certainly related. Uh, the Park Service proposed in 2024 to make four land swaps, uh, but this plan also lacks really critical transparency. Um, there's, there's no detail on the value or the size of the parcels that are currently publicly owned that they would be trading to the private in-holders. We don't know who the in-holders are. They conducted extensive archaeological surveys of all of the parcels proposed in the land exchange, but they've not released to the public any significant cultural or ecological value determined on those parcels. There's no...
• 22:57
  I know I'm missing a lot. Jess, what else am I missing? A really key part of the concern about the proposed land exchange that the, the public has raised is about the l-lack of transparency in the land exchange proposal, and specifically n-there's no language guaranteeing that once the private in-holders acquire some, some really, um, valuable land on the, the western back barrier side of the island, that they would be restricted in the way that they develop those parcels. And that is critical to understanding if this land exchange is consistent with the original legislative intent of the island to maintain its privative-- primitive nature.
• 23:49
  So
• 23:51
  this is something that many members of the public have recently raised when the Camden County commissioners held a meeting on March
• 24:04
  17th. Yeah.
• 24:06
  Uh,
• 24:08
  they allowed a five-day public comment period about two of the four proposed land exchanges, and over 500 people in that timeSubmitted public comments to the commissioners opposing the proposal, uh, mostly because people don't want the island to be developed. The public have been extremely involved at every stage of Cumberland's development and protections.
• 24:42
  Very, very quick to say, "Do not develop this island." A lot of people don't want to raise the visitor use capacity limits at all. They would like to see that limit set at 300. That was the original
• 25:01
  request from the public. It was not the result of a scientific determination of
• 25:07
  carrying capacity on the island. People, over 2,000 people said, "No, we want this to stay wild and primitive. We want recreation to be the highest value besides conservation, and, and we want historic preservation of the island. It's really, uh, really historically important." And over and over again, we, we have all of these advocates, visitors, people who understand how valuable this place is. And I think that's really, for me, tapping into the current zeitgeist of the importance of democratic processes in our public lands. And
• 25:56
  this is an opportunity at every step to say to the Park Service, "These are the values that, that your, your biggest stakeholders have for this island."
• 26:07
  Well, I think, you know,
• 26:10
  you've hit the nail on the head in that the agency hasn't put forth enough detail and enough specificity for us to really be able to understand what they're proposing. That is the biggest problem. You know, whether or not it's congruent with the seashore's, you know, own legislation is probably another. But I think that the fact that, as you mentioned, neither of these plans mentions the other, and they have... they would have potentially a cumulative impact, you know, in the event that, that both or some iteration of both plans moved forward. It's, it's frankly misleading and, and, um, y- you know, one could say even intentionally so.
• 26:55
  It, it is very difficult to, to, um, see these two plans proposed that would, you know, have such significant changes to the character and the experience, um, for visitors that I, I just... I have a hard time understanding how the agency could, could really think that what they've put forth has been thorough enough for the public to really consider it.
• 27:23
  I, I, I'm really blown away with the technical knowledge that you guys have about process. That's one of the things I love about the Wild Idea Podcast, is our ability to reveal all of the sort of processes that underlie having these amazi- amazing landscapes that, as Americans, we all get to go and enjoy. And I also love hearing the passion that, that you both have for the place. I'm curious to hear your personal journeys to the work of Wild Cumberland. Sort of what pulled you in? What from your, you know, what from your history pulled you into wanting to be a part of this organization and, and, and have all this technical knowledge and personal passion for the place? And, and maybe Jessica, I'll start with you.
• 28:03
  I first visited the seashore as a teenager myself. I had one very brave school teacher and, uh, went on a photography expedition when I was just probably 14 or 15 years old. Um, and when I visited the island, it-- I fell in love with it, and I found myself returning as frequently and as often as I could.
• 28:27
  I found that the more time I spent there, um, I was developing resilience and, and skills and confidence that I didn't know I
• 28:39
  lacked or that I needed to navigate the world. And so I found myself very focused on, um, returning to one place and understanding it deeply and, and
• 28:51
  looking for the lessons it could teach me consistently over time. Um, and now I'm a mom of four. I've been taking my own kids there since some of them before they could walk. Um, and, and really have... I, I probably deserve a, a frequent ferry card, frankly, um, because I, I've, I've spent countless trips over, uh, da- years, ti- probably months, I, I'm sorry, uh, over the years, um, on Cumberland Island. And through that work, I've been able to meet people, you know, like Dani, who have a passion for wild places and helping to make sure that they're protected, not just for visitors, but for the wildlife that depends on them.
• 29:27
  Dani, what about your journey? I wanna hear that story.
• 29:31
  So I'm a lifelong Georgian, and I've been going to the Georgia coast forever. And, um, when I was in grad school for a, a climate change and sustainability program, I, I really wanted to
• 29:46
  find a way to make connection to a place, to develop my sense of place and, and reconnect, especially with my roots. And Cumberland is, is one of those places in Georgia that has its own mythos, and I found an opportunity to volunteer with Wild Cumberland, and I got sucked in, and it just keeps building for me.
• 30:13
  We step aside for a word from our sponsor, and we'll be right back with more of the conversation. Hi, I'm Scott Dodson from Dallas, Texas, and you're listening to The Wild Idea
• 30:22
  So I want to dive into a different aspect of management of Cumberland Island, 'cause a significant portion of Cumberland Island is not just a national seashore, but a federally designated wilderness. I think that's one of my favorite examples of the range of ecosystems that exist in the National Wilderness Preservation System. We have the north slope of Alaska to a barrier island in South Georgia. How valuable is that idea of wilderness designation for the national seashore?
• 30:51
  I think it's very important to understand all of the history to really understand why wilderness designation has been so critical at preventing a lot of development and misuse of the island. Uh, like I said, fifty-six percent of the island is protected, and if you zoom out a little bit or a lot, um, [lips smack] four point seven percent of Georgia it is comprised of public lands. The rest are, are privatized. The state ranks thirty-ninth in the country for public lands. And so just that in and of itself is extremely valuable. But Cumberland plays a, an inordinately large role in protecting the Georgia coast and protecting a lot of species that we all rely on.
• 31:49
  Georg- uh, Cumberland represents eighteen percent of the roughly one hundred miles of Georgia's coastline, but it harbors twenty-five to thirty-three percent of sea turtle nests annually. And that's because eighteen miles
• 32:09
  of shoreline are undeveloped,
• 32:12
  and
• 32:14
  the wilderness has a huge part in protecting so much of that and ensuring that development can't occur along the shoreline.
• 32:25
  It is the largest barrier island in Georgia, so it's critical for coastal resiliency. And Georgia used to be the largest producer of shrimp in the US, and Cumberland plays a really critical role in water quality in, in the salt marshes and the Golden Isles, and it is
• 32:50
  really important to agriculture in the area. And a lot of that has to do with the fact that there's almost no pollution coming from the island, that it is used very,
• 33:08
  um, responsibly with a lot of restraint.
• 33:12
  And,
• 33:14
  [chuckles] and it's, and it also really uniquely provides opportunities for people especially who are not necessarily comfortable with,
• 33:27
  with entering into a, a new really rugged backcountry wilderness that might be difficult to access to begin with, um, because it is a barrier island. It's pretty darn flat, and, uh, you only have to hike about
• 33:46
  four miles to get to the southern wilderness boundary. And so it's a really... And the, and the trails to get there are just stunningly beautiful. And so it's a really nice way for people to have their first entry point into wilderness. So it, it also has that, that kind of recreational value that in Georgia is just so hard to access.
• 34:14
  I wanna dig into this a little bit more. You're obviously talking about some of the other barrier islands in Georgia's hundred miles of coast that have become destinations for folks seeking like a, a different type of, of
• 34:29
  m- maybe beach experience, and I'm, I'm thinking here of Tybee Island and Jekyll Island and St. Simons. And those places are, I wanna say, they are really important to have. Like, families need a place to go to the beach, enjoy a good meal, play putt-putt and all of that. I would kill Bill at putt-putt, and he knows that. He's scared about it. But, but Dani, [chuckles] as you mentioned, Cumberland Island offers something different. There's a certain mythos about it. And Jessica, I'm wondering if, if you think you could put into words exactly what that is. Like, when I'm there, why am I so affected by it?
• 35:04
  [laughs] Well, it's probably largely quieter than most of the places that you normally are. It's probably a bit darker than a lot of the places you normally are. Um, and you've... I mean, you're-- you can... The... Okay, so the island is so narrow in places that you're allowed to see the sunrise over the ocean in the morning, and very easily the sunset on the west side at, on the river in the same night. And how many places can you really do that? You know, it is, it is spectacular, and there are so many developed places that you can go and recreate. But I had to work really hard to find somewhere where I could have those more primitive experiences, that, those natural resource challenges, where I can search for the constellations in the sky, where I can learn to track animals, where I can learn to plan ahead and prepare, and it matter. And those are really, like, fundamental, evolutionary, sort of important things that I think we, we have to stay in touch with those, and we have to have places where we can have those experiences.
• 36:21
  I absolutely agree. But at the same time, I, I, I agree with you that I, I need that frequent ferry card. I want like a rewards program.
• 36:30
  Wouldn't that be great?
• 36:32
  I wanna go back to, to Dani. You were talking about the,
• 36:36
  the proportion of sea turtle nesting a- and the fact that Cumberland Island is not developed 'cause it's... That's somewhat about light pollution, right? Like, you have these developed coastlines with people having lights on their, on their porches and all that sort of stuff. I mean, those sea turtles need to be able to navigate basically by moonlight, right? And it's, it's a, it's a, it- that, that plays a role of why there's a disproportionate amount of sea turtle nests on the island, correct?
• 37:02
  Navigating by moonlight, the Bill Hodge story.
• 37:05
  [laughs]
• 37:05
  [laughs] Yes. The fact that
• 37:10
  a lot of the dunes are undisturbed and they're intact plays a huge part, but also the fact that there are, are almost no lights on the, the shoreline. I will bring this back to a proposal in the Visitor Use Management plan that I think is really critical that relates to that. Uh, the Nightingale Campground that they've proposed would be located in the interdunal area.
• 37:42
  Uh, and that
• 37:45
  w- we reasonably can conclude would include a bathhouse that has a similar lighting setup to the C Camp bathhouse, and it's very, very bright. But at C Camp, you've got the dunes and the maritime forest blocking the light. So I mean, besides the sea turtles, this is also an, a very critical stop in the Atlantic Flyway for a lot of shorebirds. And so there are quite a lot of species that are affected by the light on coastlines, and Cumberland is uniquely dark. And so
• 38:28
  we are constantly trying to think about
• 38:31
  how the island does get developed and its impact on the species. Um, a- and there's already an issue of lighting on the southern end of the island because right across the Cumberland Sound is Fernandina Beach, and there's a huge paper mill over there with massive lights that, that never dim. And
• 38:56
  it, it's brighter than the moon most nights. Um, you know, only a full moon can compete. And if we're not thinking long-term about these impacts, it's just, it's so,
• 39:13
  it's so easy for development everywhere else to build up so quickly and without restraint that even Cumberland Island isn't a haven for these species that are, are so affected by light.
• 39:27
  Well said. Thank you. Um, I'm gonna move us from, uh, the non-human world back to the human world for a minute. And Jessica, I wonder if you could talk about how does Wild Cumberland engage in the communities of Southeast Georgia
• 39:42
  when it comes to items of material importance for the island itself?
• 39:46
  I think that's a great question. Um, I think that Wild Cumberland serves a unique role. Cumberland Island National Seashore is one of only 10 seashores, right? And only two of those do not have an official friends group, and Cumberland Island is one of those. So Cumberland Island doesn't benefit from having a group that can help to advocate for policies and funding and, uh, resources in the ways that some of our other units might be able to do. Um, so I think that, one, we have a historical knowledge that we try very hard to use when we approach all of our work with the seashore, um, that I think is valuable, uh, given the transient nature of, of sort of the gateway community that's there. But I, I think that
• 40:39
  we have worked really hard to try and build, um,
• 40:44
  a level of respect by being thoughtful and intentional about how we approach the work. Like, um, we, Wild Cumberland, are advocates who are spread throughout the United States, frankly, but primarily across the entire Southeast. And, uh, you know, only a certain portion of our, our supporters live in Camden County. Um, so our, our job in many ways has been to raise the visibility and the dialogue around wilderness and its importance. I think that that's sort of reflective, as Dani mentioned, of the, the very limited number of public lands and wilderness areas available to Georgians as a whole. So, um, I think that we really enjoy getting out and working in the communities.
• 41:33
  Jessica, Dani, I am so, so, so glad you guys joined us today. If landscapes get the advocates they deserve, then I hope people will understand just how amazing Cumberland Island is because you guys are so passionate and so knowledgeable and so thoughtful about this. And I really appreciate you coming on and talking about it, uh, with us today. I guess just one last question before we say goodbye is if folks listening wanna get involved with Wild Cumberland or wanna engage more on some of the threats that are facing the seashore today, how would they do that?
• 42:08
  Wild Cumberland is active in a limited capacity on social media, so you can find us on Instagram. But you can sign up on our website at wildcumberland.org for our email newsletter, and we are sure to send important information to our subscribers. So wildcumberland.org.
• 42:24
  We'll be hosting a webinar going over the proposed land exchange and the latest developments on that, including the discussion at the commissioner's meetings and our, our means of engaging our, uh, legislators and, um, the commissioners, other partners who are supporting, um, the effort to protect Cumberland Island and, and maintain its legislative intent. We haven't set a date yet, so please sign up for our newsletter to receive a link once we've set the date.
• 42:59
  Such a great conversation. Thanks, Jessica Howe Edwards, Dani Purvis, Wild Cumberland. Thank you for coming on today. It's just been a real pleasure having you on the podcast, so thanks, guys.
• 43:10
  Thank you for having us.
• 43:11
  Coming up on "The Wild Idea" podcast, we wrap up our month of Eastern spring break, heading back to campus, this time to Maryville College, and the launch of the Alexander Institute for Conservation Leadership. This has been a fun month for us, and next month is pretty exciting as well. We would love it if you would sign up for our monthly newsletter at thewildidea.com. Certainly follow us on all the socials, and rate, review, and recommend us on the podcast player of choice. We hope to find you right back here next week or on Friday for the Wild Line. But whenever it is, we will see you all on down the trail.
• 43:47
  "The Wild Idea" is a production of Wild Idea Media and hosted by Bill Hodge and Anders Reynolds. Production and editing by Bryn Russell at PodLab. Digital support by Holly Wilkoszewski at Dipak Digital. Our theme music, "Spring Hill Jack," is from Railroad Earth, and was composed by John Skehan. Our executive producer and ringleader is Lara Hodge. You can find "The Wild Idea" wherever you listen to or download your favorite podcast. If you have a minute, please take a minute to give us a rating. And if you really like us, we hope you'll subscribe. Learn more about us at thewildidea.com. [upbeat music]