Latest / Future Christian / The Scandal of Ordaining Women: the Legacy of the Philadelphia Eleven with Margo Guernsey

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The Scandal of Ordaining Women: the Legacy of the Philadelphia Eleven with Margo Guernsey · Future Christian

0:07
>> Loren Richmond: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:13
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Martha
0:47
Tatarnic welcomes Margot Guernsey to the show.
0:51
Margot is a documentary director, producer,
0:54
impact strategist, and founder of Time Travel
0:57
Productions. Her films include Councilwoman,
1:00
no Time to Fail, the Officials and the
1:03
Philadelphia 11. Prior to film,
1:05
Margo worked as a union organizer,
1:08
nonprofit development director, and Spanish
1:11
English translator. Margot's work has
1:13
received support from Chicken and Egg Pictures,
1:16
ITVS Catapult Film Fund,
1:19
Good Pitch Perspective Fund, Ford
1:22
Foundation, CerDNA UH foundation, and
1:24
LEF Moving Images Fund, among others.
1:28
And she was a Film Independent Fast Track
1:30
Fellow. She speaks both Spanish and
1:33
English and holds an MFA in film from the University
1:36
of Miami, an MA in history from
1:38
UMass Amherst, and a BA in
1:41
history from Brown University.
1:44
Margot teaches producing as affiliated faculty
1:47
at Emerson College and is a member of the
1:49
Documentary Producers alliance and Global
1:52
Impact Producers Alliance. A
1:55
reminder. Before we start today's conversation, please take a
1:58
moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a
2:01
review, and share Future Christian with a friend. You can
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connect with Martha, Loren and Future Christian on
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2:09
laurensonatemediaprouh.com
2:12
with comments, questions or ideas for
2:15
future episodes. We appreciate your voice and how we
2:18
faithfully discern the future of the church.
2:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I'm your host for
2:34
today's episode, Martha Tatarnic, and I'm
2:37
really thrilled today to be joined by Margo
2:39
Guernsey, who is the producer and director of
2:43
the really important film the Philadelphia Eleven.
2:46
Welcome, Margo.
2:48
>> Speaker D: Hi Martha. It's really, really a pleasure to be here. I'm
2:51
looking forward to our conversation.
2:52
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I'm so looking forward to our conversation.
2:55
Um, obviously I want to dig into
2:58
the documentary and talk all about that, but we
3:01
always begin our podcasts with a few opening
3:04
questions just to set the stage and help our
3:07
listeners get to know you a little bit. So maybe
3:10
Margo, you can just share with us a bit about your
3:12
faith journey, what it has looked like in the past
3:15
and what it looks like now.
3:18
>> Speaker D: Yes, thank you for that question.
3:22
I often start these talks by saying I am
3:24
not Episcopalian because I made a film
3:27
about the Episcopal Church and have spent the last 10 years
3:30
hanging out with some amazing Episcopal priests.
3:33
Um, but I was raised in a UCC church in
3:36
Western Massachusetts. Um, and
3:39
we actually. The Episcopal church across the street
3:43
had a priest who was a woman. So I was born in
3:45
1974 and I had no idea that that
3:48
was unique. Which is another piece of. When I found out
3:51
about this story. It turns out she was one of the first.
3:54
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh my gosh.
3:55
>> Speaker D: Not one of the original women who are in the film.
3:58
But in the early 80s there were only a few women
4:01
who at that point had been ordained and were serving
4:04
parishes, and she was one of them. So I learned about
4:07
that through the making of this film.
4:10
Um, and it also helped me understand
4:13
a little bit more about why I was so surprised
4:15
when I first heard about this story because I lived in a
4:18
very small town, so I would have seen her walking around town with her
4:21
collar. Um, yeah.
4:24
Uh, so the,
4:26
um. Yeah. So I was raised
4:29
in a UCC church. I spent a
4:32
long time in my 20s and 30s
4:34
not going to church and feeling pretty alienated
4:37
from the structures of
4:40
institutional church. Not feeling like
4:42
it was a spiritual space for me or a place to connect with
4:45
God and just not feeling,
4:47
um, not feeling connected. I don't want to say I'm not
4:50
feeling seen, but just not feeling connected. And
4:53
um, when I had kids, this
4:56
probably happens to a lot of people. I started seeking
4:59
a little bit more. I just wanted them to have a
5:02
spiritual grounding in their lives. So I started
5:05
going back occasionally, um, but still didn't
5:08
feel very connected myself. And through the making of this
5:10
film have found,
5:13
um, maybe not answers but, but. But been
5:16
exploring some questions and actually have started attending church
5:19
again locally. Not, not where I grew up, but in the
5:22
Boston area. A really great, um, A really
5:25
great parish here locally where that's very focused
5:28
on love and liberation and equality for all. And I think working
5:31
with Episcopal priests that are women for
5:34
so long helped me see that
5:37
it's not the. My faith or my
5:39
connection to Holy Spirit that was hard, but it
5:42
was institutions that just didn't,
5:45
um, that were patriarchal. Like to be blunt about it, right?
5:48
Where, where the. The. Even. Even with a use
5:51
in a UCC church where the language is about
5:54
she and he as Holy Spirit. It just the rules
5:57
and it just felt very intellectual and not connected actually
6:00
to the way I connect with um, the sacred.
6:03
And so I'm still on the Journey. But this, making
6:06
this film, the unexpected, um, gift
6:08
was to bring me a little bit closer to faith.
6:11
>> Martha Tatarnic: Wow, that is really something because I guess
6:14
I did just imagine that you might be
6:16
Episcopalian given, uh, what
6:19
this film is all about. Um, but
6:22
so interesting that that has
6:25
reignited that journey in that particular way.
6:28
And I mean, obviously we're gonna get all
6:31
into it and so on, but that
6:33
idea of like, normalizing
6:37
women in leadership, like, I. I have a lot of
6:40
thoughts about that as well. Um,
6:42
so, yeah, excited to talk about that.
6:45
But before we, um, get. Get
6:48
into the documentary, is there a
6:50
spiritual practice that you're finding meaningful
6:53
right now that uh, that is
6:56
helping on that journey?
6:59
>> Speaker D: Um, you know, my meditation
7:02
practice is the other way that I've reconnected in
7:05
this journey. Um, and I think that,
7:08
um, that's as spiritual. I mean, I.
7:11
Like I said, I have started attending church on a regular basis, but
7:14
I would say that both the meditation
7:17
and the sort of being in church
7:20
community and worship, um, have
7:23
both been.
7:25
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, well. And maybe I can just
7:28
dig a little bit more too because
7:30
obviously, you know, we have a lot of, uh, writers
7:33
and church, uh, leaders on the
7:36
podcast.
7:37
I don't know that we've had a, ah,
7:39
film director before. Um, so this
7:42
isn't normally in our opening questions, but can you
7:45
just share a little bit about your background
7:48
as somebody who makes
7:50
documentaries, somebody who makes films? Because it
7:53
also sounds like that is an avenue of,
7:56
um, of spiritual
7:59
opening for you as well.
8:03
>> Speaker D: Thank you for that question. Um, yeah, I
8:06
actually didn't start as a filmmaker out of
8:08
college. I was a union organizer. I was in college.
8:11
I studied history and um, what I
8:14
called community studies. I went to a school that allowed you to put together your own
8:17
major. So it was political science and sociology really combined,
8:21
um, and was a union
8:23
organizer, um, when I graduated for many years.
8:26
Um, and that work, while I still believe in,
8:29
um, was just burning me out. And I
8:32
could sense that it wasn't spiritual or otherwise
8:35
supportive. Right. It just wasn't. It wasn't,
8:38
um. It wasn't a space where I was thriving as
8:41
a person. And um. And
8:44
that's what began the journey to filmmaking, which was,
8:47
I won't take you into the weeds, but. And then ended up,
8:50
um, in going back to school and getting an
8:53
MFA and pivoting over to filmmaking, which. The act
8:56
of storytelling, which. The way that we engage in
8:58
storytelling is a deep storytelling. It's
9:01
actually, you know, you're exploring the meaning
9:04
beyond the meaning. So it's the facts of what have happened in this
9:07
case with this film. It's something that happened in the past, but it's
9:10
also the meaning below that. And what does this mean? What did it mean for the
9:13
people who participated and what gave them the courage to do
9:16
what they did? And so you're really peeling back the
9:19
layers, um, to
9:22
tell the story in a way that's engaging. We say
9:24
emotionally engaging, but I'm actually starting to say
9:27
that's engaging so that we see ourselves in these people
9:30
like they're human, like us. Right. So how can we in
9:33
the present day engage with where they
9:36
were at 50 years ago in this case?
9:39
Um, so the act of story, the act of filmmaking
9:42
is an act of storytelling, which is really a deep
9:44
dive into human connection.
9:47
Um, and I think you're right to say this is in many
9:50
ways it is a spiritual practice. Um, I don't
9:53
think all filmmakers are as aware of that. And maybe the
9:56
filmmaking would be stronger if they were. I think it's something
9:59
that, you know, I'm coming into also myself.
10:03
Um, but that was my journey in, in a nutshell, the.
10:05
The jerk. Well, we'll talk about the journey to this film probably.
10:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, but you're like, it's certainly not
10:13
mere reporting. Like, you're not just kind of
10:15
constructing, uh,
10:17
uh, a journalistic take on,
10:20
um, events of the past.
10:22
And I'm currently completely
10:26
lost in 16th century Tudor England
10:28
in the book that I'm reading right now. And so that question
10:31
of like, okay, so this is the story,
10:34
but why does it matter? And why does it matter
10:37
for us, I think is
10:40
front and center.
10:43
So we've teased this incredible, uh,
10:46
film, the Philadelphia eleven. But, uh, for
10:49
those of our listeners who haven't heard about
10:52
it yet or aren't aware of what this is
10:55
about, maybe you can start by
10:57
giving uh, some broad brushstrokes
11:00
of the story.
11:04
>> Speaker D: Right. So for those who don't know, um, in
11:07
1974, after many, many years
11:09
of lobbying for change in the Episcopal Church so that women
11:12
could be ordained as priests, a, ah, group of women
11:15
who were, um, ordained as deacons and
11:18
had gone through all of the training and the discernment process
11:21
that's required by the church to become a priest,
11:24
um, but were told they could not take that final step because of their
11:27
gender, they got together and decided
11:30
to move forward and organize a service
11:33
that would be outside of tradition, outside of,
11:36
um, expectations, outside of what the church
11:39
had said was the right way to do things.
11:42
Um, and the service was held in Philadelphia at the Church
11:44
of the Advocate. Um, this was a group of white women
11:47
and this was the only Episcopal Church willing to hold the service.
11:50
And it's noteworthy, I think, that it was a black urban church
11:53
in North Philly, um, and the
11:56
service, and there were three bishops who agreed to um,
11:59
ordain the women. And so that service was held in
12:02
1974. And the film is their journey. It's their
12:04
story told primarily by. Not primarily,
12:07
exclusively by the women, the people in the story.
12:10
The people who were the women ordained and some
12:13
of their allies.
12:14
>> Martha Tatarnic: Wow. Okay. And then there is also
12:17
the Washington Four, which
12:20
gets named a little bit in the film as well.
12:23
>> Speaker D: Yeah. And so that was in 1974. And
12:26
then part of, um,
12:28
after the ordination, um, the bishops
12:32
met and decided and proclaimed that the
12:35
ordations were not valid. And the women
12:37
continued to um, push forward
12:40
and they started celebrating Eucharist, both public, privately
12:43
and publicly. Um, and then another group
12:46
of women stepped forward, same situation.
12:49
They had, were ordained as deacons, they'd gone through the discernment process,
12:52
um, and a church in Washington D.C. uh, agreed to
12:55
hold the service. And those, there were four of them,
12:59
uh, so they're called the Washington Ford. Many, many
13:01
people who were around then and who look back on it
13:04
now say that that was important because it
13:07
needed to be clear that women weren't going to go away, that you couldn't
13:10
just sort of erase what happened in Philadelphia in 1974,
13:13
that this was just going to keep happening. And so
13:16
the so called Washington Four were an important part of that.
13:19
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
13:19
Okay, well, there's lots to dig into here,
13:22
but, um, but why don't you tell us how this project
13:25
came about from growing up in that
13:28
small town and seeing that
13:31
ah, Episcopal priest across the road to
13:34
making this um, documentary.
13:37
How did you come to this project?
13:41
>> Speaker D: I was working on another film.
13:43
Um, it was in development. It's actually a film
13:46
that we never made. But I was doing some research
13:49
and I stumbled on some correspondence with the Reverend
13:52
Carter Hayward. And I had also recently
13:55
read Reverend Ah, Dr. Pauli Marie's
13:57
autobiography. So in her autobiography, and for anyone who
14:00
hasn't read it, it is mesmerizing. It's extremely well written,
14:03
it's engaging, I highly recommend it. Uh,
14:06
in that autobiography she talks
14:09
about being in Philadelphia at the
14:12
service. Um, and I'm not going to try to
14:15
paraphrase how she talks about it. It's just beautiful.
14:17
Um, so that was the first I'd heard of it, but it
14:20
didn't really resonate. And so I
14:23
always laugh that Carter had so much grace with me,
14:26
because I really didn't do my research before I
14:29
jumped on that call with her. This was before we were doing video calls. So there
14:32
was no face to face, the voice call. And
14:35
I didn't know who I was talking to. I did not realize the
14:38
role that she had played both in organizing and in
14:41
leadership over all of these decades. And so in
14:43
asking her the questions that I was asking her, she really
14:46
had to also tell me her story. And she did it very humbly. And,
14:49
um, as I was hearing her talk, it was
14:52
almost like my moment of a call. I
14:55
really felt like, wow, I'm really working on the wrong film.
14:58
This is the film I need and should be working
15:01
on. And it was another three years before we
15:04
started filming. It was like a quiet call, but then it would just
15:07
keep coming back to me until I finally
15:09
let the other one go and move to this film. And,
15:12
um, so we started filming in 2015.
15:15
And, um. Yeah. And here we are today. So that's.
15:18
That is how. That is sort of the back and forth of how
15:21
it happened. But I would also say that
15:24
the story to me has always been important
15:27
to tell because for the
15:30
same reason that I was shocked that I didn't know and understand
15:33
it as a student of the civil rights movement and a
15:36
student of American history in the 20th century. So from
15:39
the perspective of this is, if you're. If you're
15:42
studying religious history in the United States and you're not being told about
15:45
this, then why. Why is it being silenced? Like, what's. Why
15:48
is. It's critical. Right.
15:51
And also as somebody, as. It's, uh, you know, it's integral to the civil
15:54
rights movement in the United States as well. And so it
15:57
felt like it had been left out. But maybe more importantly,
16:00
it's also a story for everyone. Right. It's not
16:03
just a story for women, um, who are of a
16:05
certain faith or who are called to the priesthood. It's really
16:08
a story about what it means to follow your call,
16:11
whether that's a call associated with your faith or
16:14
otherwise, and follow it regardless of whether
16:17
society tells you you're not eligible, you're not eligible to be who
16:19
you're called to be. Right. It is. How do. How to follow that call
16:22
with grace, um, in a world that might not
16:25
want you to be who you're called to be.
16:27
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think that doesn't it for.
16:29
>> Speaker D: A lot of people.
16:29
>> Martha Tatarnic: I think that's really important. And I think it's really important to
16:32
say, like, yeah, it's not just for women.
16:35
It's not for women in churches.
16:38
It's not just for women in leadership.
16:42
The story here is a story that we all need to
16:45
hear for a whole variety of reasons.
16:48
And I guess that kind of prompts my next
16:50
question because,
16:52
um, women have.
16:55
We've just come to the 50th
16:57
anniversary of that ordination
17:01
in Philadelphia. Um, that would have been last
17:03
year. So I can imagine
17:06
that, uh, that feels like a
17:09
pretty good milestone, um, around which to
17:12
be releasing the film. But as I was watching
17:15
it, I, ah, was feeling like it was timely
17:18
in a whole bunch of ways. And
17:20
uh, I wonder about that kind
17:23
of call as well, that kind of
17:26
providential piece of all of this. With the
17:29
film being released now,
17:32
um, I have thoughts about it, but I'm interested
17:35
in your thoughts about why this feels like the time.
17:39
>> Speaker D: We didn't plan for this to be the time. Uh, you know,
17:42
in 2015 when we started filming, the world
17:45
was different. Um, some of the issues
17:48
we face today definitely existed, but in a different
17:51
way. Um, and there was no
17:54
way in 2015 to understand the world
17:57
in 2025.
17:58
Um, and
18:02
we didn't. We, We. I will say I had a
18:05
couple conversations with Carter early on
18:07
and said we're independent filmmakers, which means it could
18:10
take a while to get this film done. We're really focused on
18:13
interviewing everybody quickly. Well, since you're all aging, we
18:16
wanted to make sure we had those interviews. Um, and
18:19
I remember saying to her, really, we'd love to
18:22
get it done in a few years, but the worst case scenario is going to be the
18:25
50th anniversary. And meaning that like
18:28
at have 10 years till the 50th anniversary. So
18:31
we'll definitely make it. So ironically,
18:33
uh, I mean we actually released the film. The first
18:36
film festival we screened at was in 2023.
18:39
Uh, but it really did, um, lend itself well to a
18:42
2024 celebration of 50 years.
18:45
Um, so that part maybe was intentional
18:48
in some subtle ways. Um, but
18:51
the. The world that we live in today
18:54
with the aspirations of, uh, would be dictators
18:57
taking away the rights of um, so many
19:00
people. Um, there was no way to
19:03
imagine that. And I do think that
19:06
some of the lessons for me from this story
19:09
have to do with solidarity. They
19:11
succeeded because they knew how to stand in solidarity
19:14
with each other. And there's some examples of that in the film.
19:17
Um, but I think often, um, or not
19:20
often, but sometimes people with
19:23
similar, um, views of
19:26
a just society where folks on the margins
19:29
are, have all of the ability to live out
19:32
full lives that they're just like everybody
19:35
else. So there aren't really. So a perfect world would
19:38
be. There aren't people on the margins anymore. Right. Everybody can,
19:40
can live fully in their, in their humanity.
19:44
Um, but we, we can fight with each other about what
19:47
that looks like and how to get there. And there's. We're all
19:49
human and we're. It's actually healthy to debate and disagree,
19:53
but sometime splinters, um,
19:55
a movement. And they knew how to stand in solidarity.
19:58
There was so much disagreement about whether Philadelphia
20:01
was even appropriate. Is it appropriate to hold a
20:04
service that is, um, regarded as
20:07
outside. I keep saying outside the norms because the
20:10
women themselves, um, always
20:13
remind me that there's nothing about church law that
20:16
they broke. Right. There's nothing about theology that was
20:19
broken. Right. In fact, the language in the canon
20:22
law was gender normal, neutral. And so. Ah,
20:24
but they did break with tradition. And the hierarchy in the church
20:27
had very clearly told them not to do this. Mhm. So it was an
20:30
act of ecclesiastical disobedience in that way.
20:33
Um, so there was so much disagreement about whether that was
20:36
appropriate. There was so much disagreement about
20:39
whether and how women who were not,
20:42
who were not straight, um, should come out when they might come out.
20:45
Was it safe? I mean, there were, but they, they all stood in
20:48
solidarity in so many ways with each other. Also, at
20:51
a time when the, um,
20:53
women's movement wasn't particularly known for
20:56
standing alongside, uh, women of color and
20:59
the civil rights movement wasn't known for standing for
21:02
women's rights. Right. It was a time when there was a lot of
21:05
prioritization of one. Right. We're going to deal with one
21:08
injustice now as opposed to all the injustices.
21:11
And yet this group stood in solidarity. Right. It was
21:13
black people and white people standing together for
21:16
gender equality, um, with full knowledge,
21:19
although they weren't public about it, the bishops who ordained them
21:22
knew that some of the women, um,
21:25
were gay or queer. Um,
21:28
so while they weren't public about it, they were very aware.
21:30
So, you know, it was a, it was a moment, it was a lesson in
21:33
solidarity.
21:34
>> Martha Tatarnic: Wow. Um, yeah, that's quite
21:37
remarkable. And
21:39
um, you know, you noted that it
21:42
was all white women who were ordained, but
21:45
that that act of the black
21:48
church standing up with them
21:51
is a big part of the story.
21:53
That's quite amazing.
21:56
How did they sort of define
21:59
their participation or their support
22:02
of it? Like how did they, how
22:05
did they come to choose to do
22:08
that?
22:10
>> Speaker D: My understanding is that some of it has to
22:13
do with trust built over years, which
22:16
I think is significant. For us all to understand
22:19
the Bishop DeWitt and the Reverend Suzanne
22:22
Hyatt. Um, so Bishop DeWitt was one of the ordaining
22:25
bishops. He was in Pennsylvania. Sue Hyatt was one
22:28
of the leaders of this group of women, were very,
22:31
very good friends and allies of,
22:34
uh, Father Washington, who was the rector at the church of the
22:37
Atmican. So, um, they
22:39
had done a lot of work on racial justice and
22:42
economic justice in Philly together
22:45
on other issues. And that,
22:48
um, is likely to have been a
22:51
big reason that they could then partner on this.
22:54
It wasn't a cold call. It wasn't, you know, I don't know.
22:57
You could you support this? Right. They trusted each other.
23:00
Um, Father Washington took it to the
23:02
congregation and asked the congregation if they
23:05
were willing to support this and was clear that he wasn't
23:08
going to do it without their support. And they, in Bishop
23:11
Harris's words, overwhelmingly said yes. And Bishop Harris
23:14
was a member of the congregation. I think she might have been on the
23:16
vestry.
23:17
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, right. Yes. Okay.
23:19
>> Speaker D: Yeah. So, um, but I think, you know, it
23:21
is about.
23:22
Have trust built over years. In addition
23:25
to Father Washington having been a leader,
23:28
um, in the civil rights movement, he hosted Black
23:31
Panther gatherings at his church. Again,
23:34
that movement was not always supportive of gender
23:36
issues, but that doesn't mean that individuals in the movement were not.
23:39
And in this case, he was.
23:41
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. I think that's such an important
23:44
ingredient to note as well when we're
23:47
sort of considering resistance today,
23:50
um, those pieces around solidarity, but the
23:52
trust that is needed for that solidarity to happen.
23:57
>> Speaker D: Um.
23:57
>> Martha Tatarnic: Sounds like, worth bookmarking
24:00
just remembering all of that.
24:03
Um, so you did note that you
24:05
wanted to start the interviewing right
24:08
away. Um, obviously, 50 years
24:11
ago, uh, people who were
24:14
involved in those first
24:16
ordinations, um, would be
24:19
well into, um, their
24:22
more elderly years at this point. How many
24:25
of the 11 were you able to speak to?
24:29
Um, what surprised you about
24:32
their stories?
24:35
>> Speaker D: Five of the 11 are
24:38
essentially the narrators of the film.
24:40
Um, we were also able to interview
24:43
the Reverend Betty Bonchis and Sabley, uh,
24:46
and also the Reverend Emily Hewitt. So two more.
24:49
And those interviews, um, we ended up not
24:52
using because, um, they
24:55
just were. We were. It was too late in their lives for them
24:58
to be the storytellers that you need in film.
25:00
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay.
25:01
>> Speaker D: It was just an issue of age. Um,
25:04
so five of the women are the
25:06
storytellers. And,
25:08
um, you
25:11
know, at the beginning of the process, I think
25:14
it was the Reverend Merrill Bittner who said, you know, we're all so
25:17
different. Or maybe Someone else said.
25:20
I think they all have told us that over the years. Yeah.
25:23
And the more we were able to
25:26
meet with them and speak with them and get to know them,
25:29
the more that resonates. And,
25:32
um, I think that's also important to lift up. We are all very different.
25:35
We have lots of things about us that can be different, even if our
25:38
skin and our gender is the same.
25:41
And that difference can bring even more
25:44
powerful collaboration.
25:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
25:46
>> Speaker D: You can't. And being the same isn't as strong
25:49
as leaning on each other's strengths.
25:52
Um, yeah, and they are. They are very different and also
25:55
very. Some of them very conservative, some of them very liberal. You know, they
25:58
all. Different upbringings. Different. Different
26:00
goals in life. Different. Just very different. And all
26:03
very powerful and. And courageous and.
26:06
And. And steadfast in their calls.
26:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. They, um.
26:12
That comes across in the film very much like
26:15
that. Uh, each one of them speaks with such
26:18
a unique voice, and I like
26:21
that. Uh, note that
26:23
being the same
26:26
or being different is actually a
26:29
strength.
26:30
Um, I want to get
26:33
into this piece around,
26:36
um, disobedience
26:39
and that, you know, this had come
26:42
before General Convention, I think
26:44
that's the name in the Episcopal Church for
26:47
the national gathering, um, where these kinds
26:50
of decisions are made. And, uh,
26:53
it had been defeated at least a few
26:56
times at General Convention around the ordination of
26:59
women. Um, there's some
27:02
clips of, you know, some of the
27:05
statements that people have made around
27:08
why women should not be ordained.
27:11
Um, certainly I've
27:14
seen this conversation in the
27:17
Anglican Church of Canada over the years
27:20
around equal marriage.
27:22
Um, and
27:26
there's kind of always, ah,
27:29
caution that is put
27:32
out around, um,
27:35
you know, we need to act together, we need to
27:37
be ready together.
27:40
Um, and we need to honor the
27:43
bonds of relationship across the
27:45
institution. Um, and on the other
27:49
side of things is the
27:51
argument that, no, actually, like, we need to
27:54
test the fruits of the Spirit. And if
27:57
we kind of wait around
28:00
for everybody to be ready for. We're never
28:03
gonna be ready. Like, we're never gonna do anything.
28:06
Um, so
28:09
how do you interpret that piece of the story?
28:12
The importance of, um, these
28:15
11 and the three bishops and
28:18
the variety of other supporters being
28:21
willing to take that step out
28:24
and say, okay, like, ready or not, here
28:27
we come.
28:31
>> Speaker D: People are afraid of change. And I think that's a. That's
28:34
a normal human instinct. And there's
28:36
probably very good evolutionary reasons for us to
28:39
fear change, especially, um, because it can be
28:42
destabilizing. Um, I really
28:45
love the way you just framed this as
28:48
testing the fruits of the Spirit. Uh, I think it's a
28:51
beautiful way to engage in
28:54
conversation about why it's important to,
28:57
to be willing to evolve. Right. To be
29:00
willing to engage where the Spirit is taking us,
29:03
because it will only take us to better places where we can all be
29:06
more fully ourselves. Um, I,
29:10
you know, the hindsight is 20 20,
29:13
and a lot of the conversations about what would have happened had
29:15
they not moved forward are all just speculation.
29:19
Um, I think that it is true.
29:22
I believe just by
29:25
watching, um, that, you know,
29:27
watching the dynamics of how these conversations unfold, that had they
29:30
not gone forward, the church would have continued to get more
29:33
conservative. Um, and we would have a
29:35
conservative Episcopal Church. Allah.
29:38
You know, the Southern Baptists in the United States. Right.
29:41
Um, there, there was no,
29:44
um. If we're not willing, as sort
29:47
of in your words, to test the fruits of the Spirit, if we're not willing
29:50
to allow these women to follow their call, there's
29:53
nothing that will make us willing tomorrow. There's nothing that's
29:56
going to change the next day. Right. Uh,
29:59
we need to experience it. And Meryl talks about this a
30:02
lot, and it's in the film a little bit, but she talks about it a
30:05
lot when she speaks about her experience in person. That
30:08
her job, so called. She never thought her
30:11
call to the priesthood would be this, but her job, her, her
30:14
job call became to tell her story. Right. She said,
30:17
I, people needed to see a priest, a woman
30:19
celebrating communion, and people needed to see me at the
30:22
altar, like the embodiment of who I am.
30:25
People needed to see that. That became
30:28
my call. And Carter talks about also, like, who
30:30
knew that celebrating the Eucharist publicly would end up being
30:33
my priesthood. Like, that's not why I wanted to
30:36
get into this. But people needed to experience it,
30:39
to understand it. And so had they not gone
30:42
forward, people wouldn't have experienced it.
30:45
And so the trend, it is
30:47
highly likely that the church would have just gotten very
30:50
conservative and then wouldn't have opened up either
30:53
to gen, to, you know, um, to equality
30:56
for those who are, you know, identify as queer and
30:59
otherwise. So, you know, I think, um, we would have a
31:02
very different church today.
31:03
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, even for me,
31:06
like, the number of times that I have
31:09
gone into a church where they haven't had women
31:12
in leadership before, it doesn't happen so much now,
31:15
but it certainly happened earlier in,
31:18
um, in my priestly ministry.
31:21
And I would get these kind of surprised
31:24
comments either after leading a service or after
31:27
getting to know me for a couple of months, like,
31:29
oh, like I was really opposed to this. But
31:33
like, you're okay, you know, like,
31:36
but it is just kind of being opposed to
31:39
like the unknown. Like we,
31:42
we don't know what. We don't know. Um,
31:45
obviously the proof is in the pudding. In
31:47
1976 the General Convention did
31:50
vote to allow the ordination of women, which I find
31:53
to be like quite ah, an amazingly
31:56
short trajectory from this
31:59
great big step to the church than
32:02
like getting on board.
32:04
Um, it comes out a little bit
32:07
in the film, but I'm really
32:10
interested in your thoughts on
32:13
like the price that
32:15
these women paid. But also the three bishops,
32:18
also the male priests who invited
32:22
these newly ordained women into their churches
32:25
to celebrate communion. All of them were
32:28
operating outside of what
32:31
the, the church as a. Who said they should
32:34
be doing. Like at what cost?
32:39
>> Speaker D: Yeah, um, the cost was
32:41
significant and you know, the film. The
32:44
reason we didn't end the film with the 1976
32:47
convention is because it felt important
32:50
for this. Both the cost to the women
32:52
and you know, if the two year turnaround
32:56
on the one hand feels like, wow, they
32:59
really got their organizing together and
33:02
got it down. On the other hand,
33:05
it's been decades of work to,
33:08
for women priests to really follow their call
33:11
in the church. Right. If you talk to anybody who
33:14
served a parish in the 80s, even getting a parish job
33:16
was hard, maybe still hard in some
33:19
places. And when it passed
33:22
General Convention, there was a time we were going to put this in the film, but it
33:25
got. Got a little bit too in the weeds for a film.
33:28
But it, there was also,
33:30
um, I don't know if you'd call it a rule or a
33:32
canon or something. Whatever the, the terminology
33:35
passed. That was, um, that wouldn't. That basically
33:39
was called the conscience clause and it allowed a
33:42
bishop to choose. Really what was passed was
33:44
bishops are now permitted to choose to
33:47
ordain women if it is. Follows their conscience, but they can
33:50
also choose not to. Uh, right. So there were
33:53
many, many dioceses for a long time that, where the
33:56
bishop just said it's against my conscience. And so no.
33:59
And then women had to choose to either change diocese, which as
34:02
you can imagine is a huge. It's. You're rooted up from family and
34:05
community and church community or not follow
34:08
their call. And um, so that went on for
34:10
decades. Um, and so it is. And
34:13
the work, so the work continues. And
34:16
so I would say it's been decades of work.
34:19
Um, which is why it's so relevant that
34:22
the cost was so extreme. And you know, the cost,
34:25
you could look at it today not so
34:27
Unfamiliar to those who are getting
34:30
attacked in death threats and whose families have to go into hiding.
34:33
I mean, a lot of the cost was having to deal with
34:36
constant threats and constant press
34:38
calls and being in the public eye when you
34:41
weren't called to be a public person. Right. None of them
34:44
were called to that kind of public life.
34:47
Um, you know, there were,
34:50
you know, there were some of the early ordinations of women had
34:53
security at the ordination because of
34:56
threats. Um, so it was very real. And for a
34:59
long time.
35:00
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, the first
35:02
ordinations of women in the Anglican Church of Canada
35:05
happened just down the street from where I am
35:08
right now. And a couple of my friends were
35:11
servers at that service, and the police
35:14
were there. Like, the threats were real.
35:17
Um, what about the men
35:20
who supported them? Like, did they. Did they
35:23
lose professional credibility
35:25
opportunities? Like, was that.
35:28
Did they kind of suffer as allies?
35:32
>> Speaker D: Yeah, they did. Um, the story in the
35:35
film, um, the film focuses
35:38
on two specific male priests who were.
35:41
Who allowed them to celebrate Eucharist in their
35:44
churches and were then put on trial. And the Reverend Peter
35:47
Beebe was never. Was banished from the church, never
35:50
allowed back in, had his priestly
35:52
orders, um, forget the term, but, like, taken from him.
35:56
No longer an Episcopal priest in the church's eyes.
35:59
I think in his eyes, he's a priest.
36:01
Um, and the Reverend
36:04
Will Bill went also was convicted at
36:07
trial. He was in a diocese that was a little
36:10
bit more friendly, and his orders weren't taken
36:12
from him. Um, but they suffered. You
36:15
know, life. I mean, Peter Beebe ended up with a different
36:18
career and a different life. You know, it changed everything for him.
36:21
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
36:22
>> Speaker D: Um, and, um, other allies
36:25
to a lesser extent. You know, they did not go after the Church
36:28
of the Advocate. There was a risk there that they could have, that they
36:30
might have, but, um, they did not.
36:33
Um, and the bishops who,
36:36
um, ordained the women were retired intentionally,
36:39
so there was less professional
36:42
consequence. And maybe that is why they were
36:45
willing to do it.
36:46
>> Martha Tatarnic: Interesting. That's interesting.
36:49
Yeah. So enormous
36:52
costs, I think. Um,
36:55
certainly I, and, um,
36:57
other women in ministry could
37:00
report a lot of our experiences
37:03
over the years. A lot of the experiences that have been
37:06
shared with, uh, the women who went before
37:09
us and,
37:11
um, like,
37:16
is ongoing in a significant way. And also
37:20
the church of 50 years later is
37:23
quite remarkably different than it was
37:25
50 years ago. Uh, and I,
37:28
you know, I try to keep that in the
37:31
foreground of my, uh,
37:34
purview, because, like,
37:37
it. There's a lot to be grateful for.
37:39
There's a lot to be grateful for about my 20 years in
37:42
ministry versus what those
37:45
first 20 years would have been like.
37:49
I want to circle back to,
37:51
um, your experience of growing
37:54
up with it being quite normal that across
37:57
the street is this Episcopalian female
37:59
priest. And certainly I've
38:03
always served or I've always lived
38:06
in an Anglican church where women have been ordained,
38:09
they've been ordained longer than I've been alive.
38:12
And so I kind of grew up with that, uh, being
38:15
pretty blissfully normal. I
38:18
wasn't as a kid realizing that this
38:21
was such a recent fight that,
38:24
um, the women that
38:26
I saw in leadership were probably
38:29
paying a significant cost to be there.
38:33
Um, whereas I also
38:36
grew up in the classical musical world and I never
38:39
saw women conductors or heard about women
38:42
composers. I did grow up in a church where
38:44
I saw female priests. And
38:48
um, and that matters. Like
38:51
representation matters. It matters to see that
38:53
embodied. As you already said, um,
38:57
it just goes a significant way
39:00
in what we imagine is possible.
39:04
Uh, and at the same time, like 50 years
39:07
on the scale of 2,000 years
39:11
is like, we're still really early into
39:14
this journey. So,
39:17
like, where do you see the church being
39:20
different now because of the past
39:23
50 years and where, like, where
39:26
is the change still very much
39:28
needed?
39:31
>> Speaker D: You know, I think having that representation
39:35
is also, also gives us courage, right?
39:37
Mhm. So it's, it's, it's about embodying the
39:40
change so that we all can become something new.
39:44
And where. It's, it also gives
39:47
courage and permission to those who might
39:50
be fearful of taking that step. Right. And I think that's
39:53
another way that it helps the evolution on
39:55
this journey continue. Um,
39:58
and not a surprise, right, to
40:01
figure out that, oh, in fact, um,
40:04
God didn't say that only men can
40:08
play this role. That was people on Earth, right. Like,
40:11
it's not the Holy Spirit who made that decree. So, you
40:14
know, learning to figure, to walk this path of, um. Right. This
40:17
is not, this is actually about earthly institutions and human
40:20
and humanity and less about Holy
40:23
Spirit and how as humans do, we start to figure
40:26
that out together. And um, that,
40:29
and I say that with your
40:31
paralleled example of classical music, right. Like this
40:34
is about what, how humans have organized on Earth, but it
40:37
really has nothing to do with that which is sacred and that which
40:40
is, um, connected to God.
40:43
Um, and yet we're still on this journey. And as you say,
40:46
50 years is not nothing compared to 2000,
40:49
which is, I think, why it's so hard. I, you know,
40:52
it might be that we as individual human
40:54
beings are not on Earth for very long, but we
40:57
Carry with us that which we've learned from our
41:00
ancestors. And it makes it hard for people to
41:03
embrace change.
41:05
Um, I. You know, as
41:08
I. I feel like I'm Episcopal adjacent, but
41:11
I really am not Episcopalian. And so I've heard
41:14
a lot about where the church is at and where it needs to go
41:17
through, um, all this work over these years, but
41:20
I don't feel like I'm the best person,
41:22
um, to really voice that,
41:25
because it's not in my lived, um,
41:28
experience. Even though I've been, I mean, Episcopal.
41:30
Episcopal services at this point.
41:33
Um, I do think the church
41:36
is called to have something to say. To say about what's happening in
41:39
the world now. Um, you know,
41:42
it's, um.
41:44
It's. It's that we're at a pivotal. Yet another
41:47
pivotal. Pivotal. Can you say that moment
41:50
in, um, and
41:53
silence, um, really
41:56
isn't an option? And I think that that's starting to happen.
41:58
Um, it's been slow, but it's starting to.
42:01
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And, you know, maybe that is,
42:04
uh, an important gift of
42:07
this being relatively recent, that,
42:10
uh, women have been ordained in the
42:13
church is that,
42:15
um, you know,
42:18
we're more tuned in to that
42:21
reality of, um, the
42:23
difference that it makes when people stand together and
42:27
are courageous and speak up rather
42:30
than being silent. Um, I also
42:33
just think. And again, I would like, also
42:36
draw in that parallel of the fight for equal marriage
42:38
that has been such a big part of my
42:41
years in the Anglican Church of Canada
42:44
is, um.
42:47
Like, I want to be part of a church where
42:50
we know that we're a work in progress.
42:53
Like, where we know that
42:56
the Holy Spirit isn't done with us yet. Like,
42:59
that's the kind of church I want to be part of.
43:04
Um, as I
43:08
said at the beginning, um,
43:11
I've been really
43:14
down a rabbit hole of that question of why
43:17
these stories from the past
43:19
are stories for right now.
43:23
Um, and the story I've been particularly delving
43:26
into is imprint of
43:29
female leadership on the
43:31
Anglican Church that we have now from 500
43:34
years ago.
43:36
M. You know,
43:38
and I think that, uh, there's
43:41
like, one way of looking at that, which is to
43:44
say, well, so what? Like,
43:47
that's the past. But you said it so beautifully right at
43:50
the beginning. Like, this isn't just
43:54
reporting the facts. Like, this is,
43:57
uh, a story about us
43:59
and us today.
44:03
Um, why
44:06
does this feel like a story that needs to be
44:09
told? Where is the
44:12
connection to us today?
44:15
>> Speaker D: I think, for one, is that in a moment where
44:18
speaking truth to power is critical
44:21
to our survival, drawing on the
44:24
courage and the knowledge that our ancestors
44:27
have had to do the same is incredibly important.
44:30
We're not in this alone. We've seen this rodeo
44:33
before. Um, we've seen it in different formats
44:36
and in different ways, but it's not new to the human experience.
44:41
Um, and to see
44:44
that there is really only one
44:46
answer to stopping it, which is to
44:49
stand up in solidarity and with courage and to speak the truth.
44:53
Right. And to. So to know. To draw that strength
44:56
from our. Those who. On whose shoulders we walk
44:59
is incredibly important right now.
45:01
Um, yeah.
45:04
And. And I also think that, you know, we don't need to repeat
45:07
the. The errors of the past. Right. If we don't know
45:09
our. There's a famous saying that's along the lines of that,
45:12
you know, if you don't know your history, you're doomed to repeat it. If you
45:15
don't, you're. When you study the history, you're also studying the future.
45:18
So. Right. Um, as human beings, I mean, I think one
45:21
of the more fascinating things about studying history
45:24
is to the extent that I find that I can
45:27
relate. If we're talking about 500 years ago or 2,000
45:30
years ago, they may not. The person
45:32
I'm feeling connected with might not have had a computer
45:35
and might have had to grow all of their own food.
45:39
And yet I still connect in every other way with the
45:42
love and the hurt and the jealousy and the rage and the
45:45
anger and the. And the joy. Right.
45:47
We're all still actually human. And
45:50
so to be able to understand that
45:53
and then understand where those who
45:56
have come before us have succeeded and where maybe they've
45:58
stumbled and we can build on that. Right. Learning about our
46:01
past helps us build on that. Helps us draw strength, draw
46:04
courage. Um, and helps us understand that
46:07
even if we don't learn our past, our past is. We are
46:10
living it. We're living it in our DNA. We're living it in the way our
46:13
society's organized. We're living it in our traditions.
46:15
We're living it in our churches. We're living. And how we understand
46:18
the spirit like it's. We. We're living
46:21
it. And to understand it only opens our eyes
46:24
more.
46:24
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. That is so beautifully put at.
46:28
We are really good at repeating the
46:31
mistakes of the past. But. But we don't have to.
46:34
Like, there's an alternative. And I.
46:37
I think that piece around solidarity that you
46:40
named earlier, to see that as a
46:42
layered thing like that, we can also
46:45
draw in solidarity from past
46:48
stories for the fight of today.
46:52
Um, like what an important thing to realize
46:57
there's a quote in the film that I
47:00
just really jumped out at me, which is
47:03
from Meryl, and she says, you need to
47:06
speak the truth even if your voice
47:09
shakes.
47:10
>> Speaker D: And.
47:10
>> Martha Tatarnic: And uh, I love that
47:14
vulnerable naming of the
47:16
legitimate fear, um, that went
47:19
into this. But also that
47:22
sense of call and that
47:25
courage. Um,
47:30
uh. Who do you hope is going to see this
47:33
film and feel
47:35
drawn into that courage and that vulnerability?
47:40
>> Speaker D: Meryl has another one, um, near the end of the film
47:43
also where she taught. Where she
47:46
ends up leaving the church for her own mental health because
47:49
she just needs a break from being
47:52
in the public eye. I'm giving away the film. But.
47:56
But in her statement of, uh, leaving,
47:59
she calls on everyone not just to.
48:02
To talk the talk, but to walk the walk.
48:04
Um, and don't participate in institutions that
48:07
don't fully see everyone as human. Those aren't her words, those are mine. But
48:10
that's. I'm paraphras. It's very powerful.
48:12
Um, I
48:18
hope, um, that anybody who feels at
48:21
all like they can draw strength from these
48:23
stories of the past will see the film.
48:26
I think that there's particular interest
48:29
in these stories amongst women who are
48:32
clergy or feel called to be clergy or.
48:35
And amongst women of faith, maybe
48:38
similar to myself, who, um, haven't felt.
48:41
Have felt lost in a patriarchal church and still
48:43
yearn for that, um,
48:46
space to worship and space for a deeper spiritual
48:49
connection. Um,
48:52
and anybody, I think anybody who
48:55
finds strength in Stories from the Past,
48:58
um, is a film for
49:01
you. We have with the film for
49:04
many years, have said in a sort of a. More,
49:08
uh. Uh, have said, you know, we want the film to reach a wide
49:11
audience. And it's kind of a vague way to say we want
49:14
people to know the story. We don't want this story to be silenced. We want this
49:17
story to be part of history.
49:19
Um, and I've learned that there's so much
49:22
media out there that it's also important to say here's. Here's the
49:25
people I think will really benefit from this story.
49:28
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I really co. Sign
49:30
this. Like, I think that it is.
49:34
It is for a general audience. It isn't
49:36
just a niche thing. Obviously there are particular
49:39
groups who are going to feel like. Especially,
49:43
um. Like
49:46
it is their lived experience.
49:49
But this is part of telling
49:53
the stories that matter. Like, this is part of
49:56
telling the stories of how we have fought for
49:59
equality and um, what that
50:01
takes, uh, and why it
50:04
matters. So, yeah,
50:07
um, I think everybody needs to
50:10
see this film.
50:11
Um, and I'm interested to know
50:14
how it has been received so far. So you're
50:17
like, a couple of years into
50:20
first film festival releases.
50:23
What has been the reaction?
50:27
>> Speaker D: I mean, we have been astounded
50:30
at the number of people who want to host
50:33
screenings. So when we first released the film,
50:36
both for strategic reasons to reach this goal of
50:39
a wider audience, and because,
50:42
um, I know from experience that watching
50:45
a film alone in your living room or on your
50:48
phone is very different from watching in community
50:51
and then unpacking it together. So from a
50:54
distribution perspective, if you just kind of put the
50:57
film out there, then distributors won't take it. So there's
51:00
a reason to not just kind of, like, put it online.
51:03
And. And I really wanted to encourage folks to gather and
51:06
watch in community together. So after that first
51:09
film festival, we launched this community screening tour. And
51:11
we're close, if not beyond 500 screenings
51:14
in person, people gathering, and these are the screenings that
51:17
register. I am sure that DVDs have been passed
51:20
around and other screenings have happened. Um, but of those who
51:23
actually officially gone through the process and registered. So that blew my
51:26
mind. We did not expect the numbers to be that high. Uh,
51:29
independent filmmakers will tell you, like, like, often people are like, oh, we
51:32
had 15 screenings, we had 30. We're like, we're over 500.
51:35
Sorry.
51:37
>> Martha Tatarnic: Congratulations.
51:38
>> Speaker D: A lot of interest. Um, and then we did,
51:41
um, get it onto PBS. As you probably know, it was
51:44
actually 90% of the market for public
51:46
television in the United States. Um, uh,
51:49
programmed it between March and now. So in the past
51:52
three months. So it's had very good market coverage in
51:55
the United States. It's available through good docs for
51:58
universities and colleges.
52:00
Um, so it's been a great, great run.
52:03
And. And, um, there's still,
52:06
you know, I think a lot of people have it. You know, it's an independent
52:09
film, so we don't have marketing, so it's not like you're going to hear about it
52:12
on your TikTok feed. It's just. That's not
52:15
going to happen. Or on a billboard. Right? Or. So,
52:18
you know, that's the gap. I also teach filmmaking at
52:21
Emerson College, so I'm often talking about this. But the gap between.
52:24
There's so many films out there that viewers would love to
52:27
see but just don't know about. There's a gap between
52:30
knowledge of. And this is true of all the films you and I don't know about that we
52:33
would love to see. There's big films with huge
52:35
marketing dollars, and those are the films we know about. And then these
52:38
kinds of Films you have to keep telling a friend about because there
52:41
isn't enough m. There's no marketing power for us to reach a
52:44
greater audience except by people telling us.
52:47
Um, so I mean, we have social media. We try to do the things you
52:50
can do, but we can only do so much.
52:52
Um, so I think there's still a lot of people
52:55
out there who don't even know the film exists for them to
52:58
watch it. So hopefully this will help reach a few more.
53:01
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, so everybody who's listening, you need to tell a friend about
53:03
this. But also like, how can people
53:06
host a screening? Is that still a
53:09
thing?
53:10
>> Speaker D: Philadelphia 11Film.com
53:13
is our website and if you click on host a
53:16
screening, it's absolutely still a thing. Um,
53:19
we have a sliding scale starting at $25 to make
53:22
it accessible to all. If $25 isn't
53:24
even possible, just send us a quick message on contact
53:27
us. We really want as many people as possible to see the film.
53:31
Um, and it is the format of hosting a screening. Although you could
53:34
host a gathering in your living room with your neighbors, it doesn't need to
53:37
be, you know, at a local theater or at your church. It can be very
53:39
informal. Um, we are
53:42
planning on putting it on a streaming platform
53:45
eventually. The big streamers don't take these kinds of
53:48
independent films. So it wouldn't be like Hulu or Netflix. It would be
53:51
maybe Vimeo or maybe Amazon.
53:54
Although I don't, I'm a little, I don't know, I have to decide
53:56
whether I actually want to put it on Amazon because we're going to be sending all the people there.
53:59
So I'm like, do I really want to give this to Amazon? But, um,
54:02
it will be available to rent pretty cheap as
54:05
of next year. We just need to wait for six. PBS requires a six
54:08
month window before that becomes available. So we're still
54:11
in that six month month window. And that's the reason it's not up
54:14
streaming yet. But we're ready to. It's been two years. So
54:17
once that window is over, we will make, um, it
54:20
available to just rent at home. But in the meantime, please host a screening.
54:23
It's the best way to watch it. And then you can unpack it together,
54:26
talk about, you know, uh, you know,
54:29
talk about the history, talk about what it means today.
54:31
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, well, I will definitely say, like,
54:34
I watched it on my own because
54:37
I was going to be doing this interview,
54:40
um, and the whole time I was watching
54:43
it, I was thinking, I can't wait to show this at our church. I
54:46
Can't wait to host a screening because I can't wait to
54:48
have discussion with people after.
54:52
And, uh, it is the kind
54:54
of film that really lends itself to wanting
54:57
to talk about it and wanting to talk about
55:00
it with your community. So
55:04
I'm really encouraging everyone who's listening
55:07
to this to click on that button
55:10
and get a screening together.
55:14
>> Speaker D: Yeah. So Philadelphia11film.com
55:17
and I'll tell you the secret, which is just if you click on the forums, they come
55:20
into my inbox. So I'm pretty good at responding quickly.
55:23
Any questions you have about how the process works, just drop
55:26
them there.
55:27
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. That's awesome. And I'm sure that we'll make sure that those
55:30
links are in the show notes as well.
55:32
Well, I'm, um, incredibly
55:35
grateful to get to talk to you today. We do have some closing
55:38
questions, but we'll take a quick break
55:41
and, uh, come back. Closing
55:43
questions.
55:47
Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast.
55:51
And I continue to be with Margo
55:53
Guernsey. And we're just going to have our
55:56
quick Fire wrap up questions.
55:59
So, Margo, we always tell our
56:02
guests that you can take these questions
56:05
as seriously as you want or as not seriously
56:08
as you want. They are meant to, um,
56:11
just kind of be fun questions that
56:14
we ask all of our guests. So
56:17
if you were a pope for the day, what
56:20
would that 24 hours consist of?
56:24
>> Speaker D: When I first saw this question, I was very intimidated.
56:27
All of a sudden I had an aha. I said, this is not
56:29
hard. I would make, change the rules so
56:32
women in the Catholic women could be priests.
56:35
That is what would happen in the first 24 hours if I were.
56:38
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I love that because, I mean,
56:41
we know, like we know from this story,
56:44
we know from our experience. We know that those callings
56:47
are out there. We know that the Holy Spirit is tapping
56:50
women on the shoulder and they're
56:53
being roadblocked. So,
56:56
yeah, that's a
56:59
great answer. And I'd probably be a
57:02
little disappointed if that weren't your answer.
57:04
To be honest, given subject that
57:07
we're talking about today,
57:10
is there a theologian or historical Christian
57:13
figure, um, who you'd like to meet,
57:16
bring back to life, have supper with? Who would it
57:19
be?
57:21
>> Speaker D: I actually should have thought of this one ahead of time.
57:24
There are a few whose names elude me.
57:26
Um, so I'm not sure I'm gonna have to take. But
57:29
I would say after, after spending
57:33
close to 10 years with Carter Hayward, she should be on
57:36
your list of theologians who you want to have supper with.
57:39
Because I have learned so much,
57:41
uh, from her writings, from her theology
57:44
and from just getting to know her as a personal.
57:48
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well that's a good answer.
57:50
And I mean it's somebody that you actually have
57:55
personal uh, experience with, so that's good
57:57
too.
57:59
What will history remember from our current time
58:02
and place?
58:05
>> Speaker D: I think the jury's out on this. I think history
58:07
will remember whether we were able
58:10
to stand together in solidarity to
58:13
stop uh, a would be dictator or not. And
58:17
that's still happening. It's unfolding.
58:21
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that uh, word pivotal is
58:24
descriptive of the time, so
58:27
we're not quite sure which way it's going to go.
58:31
What are your hopes for the future of Christianity?
58:37
>> Speaker D: My hope is that
58:39
the people of the church continue to follow
58:43
a spiritual call for both a church and
58:46
a society where everybody truly is
58:49
able to live their full selves. Where we,
58:52
as I said earlier, where we no longer talk about standing with the
58:55
marginalized. I mean Jesus taught us to stand with the
58:57
marginalized. But maybe there's a world where there's, there doesn't,
59:00
there don't need to be marginalized people where we can all just.
59:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think that's the, that's
59:08
the calling. That's where we're supposed to be
59:11
headed. Where can people
59:13
find more about you?
59:17
>> Speaker D: Uh, if you go to, if you, if you go
59:20
to Philadelphia. 11film.com My bio is
59:23
on there but my film company website is
59:26
time travel production productions.com
59:29
and just click through to the founder page about
59:32
us and you can read more about me.
59:34
>> Martha Tatarnic: Can I ask what project you're working on
59:37
now or is that in the works
59:40
yet?
59:41
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I, you know while working on
59:44
this film, um, as you know it took many years so
59:47
there were other things going on at the same time. I made two different
59:50
films about election officials in the United States. So
59:53
um, very much behind the scenes embedded with them.
59:56
First. The first film is called no Time to Fail. It's on
59:59
Amazon if you want to watch it.
1:00:02
Um, and we ah, embedded with election officials
1:00:05
during the 2020 election behind the scenes.
1:00:07
Um, and then the next one is
1:00:10
called the Officials and that one's streaming on
1:00:12
time.com so if you know Time magazine, it's Time,
1:00:16
their, their online version. Um, and
1:00:19
it is sort of a follow up sister film.
1:00:22
Um, that is with four
1:00:25
different, um, election officials in four different states and
1:00:28
conservative and urban areas. Um, as they
1:00:31
Prepare for the 2024 election. Under attack. Right? They're
1:00:34
very much under attack. Their integrity is being questioned. And so
1:00:36
it's with the film is with them as they prepare for
1:00:39
the election while their integrity is being questioned. So
1:00:42
I've worked on these two films that are very much about upholding
1:00:46
our civil rights and our civic process, um, in
1:00:49
the United States, um, and, you know,
1:00:52
very much will be tested again in 2026. As
1:00:55
you all, um, your listeners know. I
1:00:58
have a couple other projects kind of in
1:01:01
very early stages, um, but so
1:01:04
early that we're not, I mean, it's not that we're not
1:01:07
even talking about. I'm not even really. It's more the
1:01:10
development research, trying to figure out where the best, where to go next,
1:01:13
um, in alignment with some of my
1:01:16
other, you know, hopes and dreams.
1:01:18
>> Martha Tatarnic: So stay tuned, I guess, is the answer there.
1:01:21
Well, thank you so much for your time today, Margo. Thank you
1:01:24
for this film. Thank you for the,
1:01:27
um, for listening to that
1:01:30
calling and uh, the Holy Spirit tapping you
1:01:33
to do this because it feels really timely
1:01:36
and really important.
1:01:38
>> Speaker D: I appreciate your time and yet the conversation,
1:01:41
um, and to all the listeners, appreciate the work you're all
1:01:44
doing out there.
1:01:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: We always end with the word of peace, so may God's
1:01:48
peace be with you. Margo.
1:01:50
>> Speaker D: Same to you.
1:01:58
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
1:02:01
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
1:02:03
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1:02:06
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