Latest / Being Different Together / #22 - Intentionality, Part 7: Take the Hard Things Easy

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#22 - Intentionality, Part 7: Take the Hard Things Easy · Being Different Together

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Being Different Together, the podcast for people who want to make the world a better place, but no, they can't do it alone.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Kelly Brady, acupuncturist, psychotherapist, and certified dialogue therapist.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Nissa Hanger, massage therapist, aromatherapist, coach, and real dialogue specialist.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Together we'll explore how conversations can improve relationships, make work more joyful, and spark healing for ourselves and our communities.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: And listen, we don't shy away from the hard conversations.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, we welcome them.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't about being right, it's about being different together.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, hello.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to another episode of Being Different.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Together.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: Kelly has was just laughing at me because I clap at the beginning of the episode to know where to cut it when we're editing.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: And apparently I have a funny clap.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you have a funny clap.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know what it made me think about?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I find it funny.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: This is one of those places where subjectivity comes into it.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, not everybody finds what I find funny funny.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like things are not just either funny or they're not funny.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I find it funny.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: True.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: So you look like kind of like a little bit of a walrus when you do it.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Is it the walruses that the Okay, I have the I have a seal clap.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, just not always.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, not always.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: I've been to a lot of really good performances with you where you've been clapping and you don't clap like that.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a particular way, this affected way that you have of announcing the beginning of the show with the clap.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Someday we'll we'll be on video, right?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Someday we'll this aspirationally someday we'll have a studio that's as nice as Stephen Bartlett's on Diary of a CEO.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: And um and and we'll have like, you know, it'll be videoed, and then and then you could still do the clap.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'll do the clap.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, even if we have a fancy producer.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: I just think it's funny to say do the clap.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: You think it's funny to say do the clap?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I we've gone over this before.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: When we bring up clap, then I just think of the clap.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's what we're doing.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: And what a great way to start an episode.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's what you think of.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: Sexually transmitted disease.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: So um no way to segue this.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: Let's uh share.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um share is here?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: Share is here.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: We got a um before we get into the episode.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: I just wanted to share.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: We got a very, very sweet text from a friend of ours who listened to our podcast last week, and it's not quite a review, but it's kind of a review, so I'm gonna read it.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: A friend says, I need to give you two a quick shout out.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: Just listened to episode 20 of the pod, and I simply must tell y'all how much I appreciate appreciate y'all sharing y'all's beautiful conversations, y'all.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know quite why it says y'all.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was like expressive, it was like this y'all!
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like that.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's a lot of y'alling in in uh in the south.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: They all that um they also go on to say, just thanks for your your gift of your pod.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: I want to catch up on some previous ones, but this one was calling to me today, and now I know why.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: Couldn't have happened any other way.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, couldn't have happened any other way.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: So Yeah, that might be one of our intentionality slogans.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: Couldn't have happened any other way.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: True.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: True.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we've been we've been discussing what what what sayings we would add to this intentionality collection or what sayings we have for our own.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, so just to catch us up in the conversation, we've been talking about intentionality now for the last, I don't know, what, six weeks or something?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: This is part seven.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, we're really going, we're taking a we're going deep.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is a whole enjoying this whole process of going through all of these uh slogans and uh slogans about how I want to show up in life, right?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's intentionality.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: How do I want to show up?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so our slogan for today is Well, and also if you're new to to this or you're just tuning in, please make sure you go back to part one where it explains the whole what we're doing here.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Or if you're a learner like me, don't do that and do whatever the fuck you want.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's also that.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: There's also that.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:01
  unknown: Yeah.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: Or if you'd like to do things from beginning to end like me, yeah, go back to the beginning.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: Go back to the beginning.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: So today we are talking about the saying, take the hard things easy.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: Take the hard things easy.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's a light one.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this thing about take the hard things easy.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this thing about going back from the beginning or being at the beginning, suddenly I was thinking about did you ever see the movie When Harry met Sally?
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, we watched it together on it like two years ago.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's a good New Year's movie because of the end, you know, where he's running through the street and he realizes he loves her.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: He wants to be with her.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then he runs you know, through the city to get there by the time the ball is dropping or whatever.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, there's one of the scenes is that Billy Crystal's character loves to read the last page of the book first.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And they're having a conversation about it.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: This is one of these classic, like, tension of the opposite things that goes on with couples, right?
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's like he's like, Well, no, I have to because what if I die before the end?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: And she's like, Harry, that's so dark.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like, don't are you the read the read the end of the book person?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean sometimes I do like to drop in right in the middle of something.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: Or no, or or yeah, sometimes I do.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like when people are like spoiler alert, I'm like, no, tell me, what happens?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: What happens?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe it goes back to childhood.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: I always wanted to avoid that part of the movie where Lassie gets sick or dies, or the hor the horse dies, or the dog dies, or the mom dies, or you know, it's like all of the childhood movies.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: There's some some kind of somebody's dying.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I know.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I it just used to get me so upset.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know what really got me was when in Beastmaster?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: When the ferrets sacrificed sorry, spoiler alert, the ferrets sacrificed themselves.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: The ferret?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: The ferret Yes, his ferret friends.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, sorry, I I don't remember them.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, I would cry every time.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: Because that was like that was always the same.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: It was really uh inappropriately placed because you're already getting misty right now at the kitchen table talking about the ferret, dude.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's bringing stuff up for you.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: I would always cry, Obese master.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: Bringing things up for you.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes a good movie is a great way to prime the pump if I need to cry, though, right?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have had times in my life where I just get kind of frozen, like, oh man, I just can't cry.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't know, like, I feel like I need to cry, whatever.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then there are just a couple movies I can go and watch, and pretty much it'll open them up.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: It'll open up the sometimes it's not even a sad movie, sometimes it's a touching movie.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I know.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know what movie gets me every time?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: What?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: Parenthood.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: Parenthood with Steve Martin.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's just I mean, I don't know.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's just so sweet.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: There's just all this sweetness in it.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's right, we watch that too.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: There's just all this sweetness in it.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Sweetness.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: There's all kinds of movies.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: So does it all relate to our saying?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, take take what's the saying?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Take the hard things easy.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: What do you got?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Here's the thing.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: I I think.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that for a long time I had a secret belief.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: And by secret I mean it was unconscious, but I I really thought that if something mattered to me, that I had to suffer correctly while doing it.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a there's a there's a wrong and a right way of suffering.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's sort of like, well, if something is hard, then I'm supposed to suffer.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a correct way of suffering.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like I sort of thought that there was a correct amount of suffering that was required for certain losses, that was required for certain activities.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean bleeding like during conflict.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I mean, this is this classic.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: This is a really good password.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: I want an example.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: So here's a classic.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, if I for example, I used to think if I was having a difficult conversation with somebody that I had to suffer.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: That you had to keep it difficult.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, well, in other words, stay in the difficult land.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: There was a certain level of emotional suffering that I would lay on top of things that were already hard.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in and of themselves.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so I mean, try and paraphrase me and see if you smell what I'm talking about.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I well, I do want to kind of understand what you're saying.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: Is it like a um this is a question, it's not a paraphrase, just for uh clarification here.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um is it like um Oh, dang it, I just lost it.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Is it like like the beating yourself up, like you fail at something, and so then you also have to beat yourself up?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: This is just showing my own psychology.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: I I fail at a thing, and I have to suffer enough by beating myself up around it.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, that that now that I'm thinking about it, that's so I don't do it again.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: So that might be going in a whole other direction, but that's where my mind went when I heard No, no, I mean that.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: I that's a really great point.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think a lot of people have that unconscious belief.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I definitely have a secret belief.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: What I mean is it's not like you're you you're keeping it a secret from yourself or something, right?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's unconscious.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's unconscious.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, it's like we don't we don't know that it's in there.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's part of some kind of training that I picked up.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Or something that was handed to me interration intergenerationally.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like how much suffering do I think I'm supposed to have about this?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um okay, so here's here's an example.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: This is what come this is as you were talking about what you were talking about, I was kind of like in that reverie where I was just thinking of things.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I've I've worked with a number of of um well let me just let me just tell you a story.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: One time I had a client, okay, and I'm just gonna go ahead and mess with the client's identity and turn it into an amalgam an amalgam.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: So what I want to say is that what the story I'm getting ready to tell you is is actually based on a person's story, but I'm gonna change it around so that the person's not identifiable.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so the person was a very high-functioning physician, okay?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Highly specialized, an anesthesiologist.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: That person, this client of mine, had a pretty bad addiction problem, got addicted to um fentanyl, and uh, you know, versed, which is ultimately what killed my Michael Jackson, by the way.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um so these anesthetic drugs, I know how much you love Michael Jackson, so I just feel the need to bring it up.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it it's like these drugs can they're very, very dangerous, right?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Fentanyl is this extremely strong opiate medicine that you can take.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a painkiller, but it also like knocks you out.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: It knocks you unconscious.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and when it's combined with um this other drug called versid, then you don't remember.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Verseid's like an amnesiac.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: So um So you check out and you forget.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: And you forget.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: So even if even if even if you're to wake up during the procedure, you won't remember it because of the versid.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: All right, all right.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's actually it's it's genius, you know, and because of this, we can go in and have this kind of like twilight, uh, you know, we don't have to have general anesthesia, and then we can have these procedures done that are difficult, right?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like interventional radiology and minor surgeries that don't require general anesthesia.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, my point is anesthesiologists have a lot of access to a lot of really mind and mood altering drugs.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a stressful job.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, these kinds of things happen.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, it's it's it's really a very dangerous addiction, right?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of anesthesiologists end up dead.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really serious uh when this occurs.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I had this client who was an anesthesiologist who developed this addiction, and then I started working with the client after they had gotten out of treatment and been in recovery for a while.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And they were not cleared yet medically to go back to practice as an anesthesiologist, and so they got a job at the local donut place, which has the initials D D.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I'm talking about?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that's for dinner.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and the idea was that while they were pulled from practice, that they should be working, but it's actually really difficult to get a job when you're that highly trained.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, it's all it's almost impossible.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so we actually had kind of a relationship with the owner of this particular donut franchise, and and and and and and so many kind of pre professionals who had lost their way would end up working at this donut place.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: By your physician.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: By a radio.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Just wearing my hat like everybody else.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: So the thing is, you know, like I I uh working with someone who had worked in an environment like that, they had, you know, gone to school for so long, got so much ego, you know, stroking around, being in this position of power.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it is, it's a high, it's a high stress, high responsibility job.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: It it takes a lot of training to be there.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it and so it's I I think it does deserve a lot of respect and and admiration, actually, to get to get to that level of being able to take care of other humans.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, it was really pretty humiliating for this person to go and work at the Dunkin' Donuts on one level, right?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we had a session one time where the client was just talking about the fact that, you know, that it was so hard that they had to go to the donut shop.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, blah, blah, blah.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: And they did, and you know, just all of this kind of wailing and gnashing of teeth.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, really, really making it so hard on themselves that they had to go to work at the donut shop.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I just started, you know, cu with curiosity, just saying, Well, really, what's the day like at the donut shop?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I gotta get up in the morning and I gotta get there, and I have, you know, have to drive there before sunrise.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, really, what's the drive like?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, actually, this morning it was pretty nice.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the sun was coming up and you know, how did you feel driving to the donut?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I mean, it it's a pretty simple job, actually.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: I was just kind of checked out.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: I just showed up and started doing the job.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, really?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: And what are the people like that you work with?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, generally speaking, they're pretty good people.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, sometimes the manager gets a little crabby, you know, they they start talking about the experience really of working in the donut shop.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh yeah, how does it, you know, what are the things you have to do?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Blah, blah, blah.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: And they start kind of walking me through.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then as I'm talking to them about what it's really like to work in the donut shop, yeah, the client realizes that working in the donut shop is actually pretty fucking great.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that when the highest stakes thing you're doing is making somebody's bagel order.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, or to turn it on the air fryer.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's not the air fryer.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Completely different level.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not to say that, listen, my bagel's important.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been in those donut places when people don't get their order, and sometimes dealing with those customers is not easy.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Comparatively, not the same as having having somebody crash during an open heart surgery.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 16:44
  unknown: Okay.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: You just can't compare the level of stress in those two things.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: Now we could get into a whole thing about subjectivity, right?
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: But either way, you know, when I the reason that I'm going down the rabbit hole is that it it was at this point in the session that I actually said to the client, you know, this is a really hard thing that you could take easy.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: And and there was this sort of like moment, right?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Was like, oh, yeah.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: I I I can't work in my profession right now.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: I can't work in my profession right now.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've and then the client realized I've actually been wanting a break for years.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe that's part of what led to all of the addictive behavior.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's a that's an insight.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: So this is what I'm saying by this unconscious or secret belief that something needs to be harder, that there has to be some kind of level of appropriate suffering.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think built into that experience was a person that was like, Well, I if if I'm actually who I think I am, in other words, in my ego, I think I'm this doctor that has to do these things.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: And if I'm actually that person, then I would really have to complain about this.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: So making that change like do you smell what I'm cooking here?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's like sometimes making a change about how much we think we need to suffer about something is could be really threatening to our sense of identity.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, I'm wondering how much suffering is tied to our identity.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's exactly where I'm going.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and so then, okay, so then it's like I gotta do like psychological math backwards.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's like a logic problem, right?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like if if our suffering is tied to our identity, yeah, but we have the ability to choose.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think part of what this saying says to me is that I have a choice similar to um it's useful to view the past in a friendly way, as we talked about, I think in the last episode.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: I was talking with a client, um, and uh I'm sorry if you hear the sound of a um circular saw in the background, but in case you're wondering, we are still working on our edition.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, for those of you following along between the dudes in the backyard.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for those of you following along, we now have walls in the back, which is pretty awesome.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Walls in the back?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: It has been so cool to watch this go up, right?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I'm like, wait, what is that for?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: What is that for how does this work?
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: Where how are they gonna put the top on the windows?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, is that what those pieces of concrete are for?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Anyways, I look at the way like I'm always second guessing them, but whenever anybody second guesses me about my job, dude, I'm I'm like, I know.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: Don't you second guess me?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: I totally had to be like, hey, I went to school for 16 years.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, to be fair, the the plumbing had to be put in twice.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I could tell my side that was not I'm even a plumber.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: But those there ain't a bathroom there, okay.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not a rocket scientist, I'm not a plumber.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not a Oh my gosh.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so let me get let me get back to what I was saying.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: If our suffering is tied to our identity, and we have a choice.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: So if we look back to the last saying of it's useful to view view the past in a friendly way, I mean, I was talking with a client of mine about that yesterday.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, that saying is it's not saying you must view the past in a friendly way.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's saying it is useful, which to me means I have a choice.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so if my suffering is tied to my identity, um but if I can but I can also take the hard things easy, which again implies for me that I have a choice for how the way I take things.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: You do.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: And but how I take things how I'm choosing to take them, like in your story of your client, right?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: If I choose to take them another way, then my default identity-driven taking of things.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um then how does that affect my identity?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, how does it?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: It well, I I I would think that it may actually change my identity.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: Which is both exciting and unsettling.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, right.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in the West we have this idea.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think therefore I am.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so then we tend to think that we are we are our thinking about ourselves.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: We have we identify with our thoughts.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like we think we we think we are who we think we are.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I definitely think I am who I think I am.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, I think that's delusional.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because 99.95% of you is unconscious.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm with you.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm with you with that.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: You do.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: You're re you're really riding on the wave of something.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: You're just the top the tippity top.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: You're like a little speck of speck of foam on the wave.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Of you know, that's I I mean, it's like you should be.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: I just did my seal clap because it just seemed appropriate.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: I am the I I am the tip of the wave.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, like dude.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's so funny.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, even the way my hands are, it looks like the tip of the wave.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's it's it's interesting because in the West we we have more ideas about being into an individual.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're individuals in the West.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, definitely.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: So definitely, I mean, I think, you know, Asia really has the corner on the market of thinking about this actually in a way that I I I I would argue is more more actually uh correct.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: Do you find that they like think more collectively?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: And there's there's less of an idea that oh, me as this separate self is the most important thing.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's less of a less of an emphasis, you know, and I and I th that it's because the contemplative traditions of Hinduism say we're not talking about communism.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, we're not talking about communism.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: But I could see how communism definitely took a foothold in those places of the world because of the long-standing philosophy and Taoism, and even Confucianism.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: And as we learned at dinner just last week, communism also took a foothold in Albania, which was not in the East.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know that it was communism in its purest form.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it sounded more like a dictatorship where the rich person took all the money from all everybody else.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't really sound like communism.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I yeah, I yeah, I think that I think that there may be some truth in that.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the USSR was big uh in into communism, right?
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: And they I don't know that I would think of them as Eastern.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I think I think I sm I think I smell what you're cooking in a certain way.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I mean But yeah, this emphasis on the collective that the collective has importance as much or more so than the individual.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think also there was a real like sort of awareness and knowledge that there was a part of us that was kind of like this ego part of us, and that and that you know, dissolving that and having more of a sense of being connected to all things was uh part of the goal.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's definitely part of the goal in Buddhism, is that in you know, the the in Hinduism there was you are a self, it gets reincarnated, there's karma, but then Buddhism took it even further and said, not only are you not who you think you are, who you think you are does not continue even after death.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: There are traces of you that continue after death, but it's not this continuous self or this soul that you're really made up of a bunch of different parts of causes and conditions that are coming together in a certain way right now.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: And when they come back together, they'll come back together in another way.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: So in other words, don't take yourself so fucking seriously.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're not a solid thing like you think you are.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that that really is kind of a magic bullet into a lot of suffering.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: But what it goes in the you know, you're not as you're you're not as you you're not really this special thing that you think you are.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like in other words, I think I'm an anesthesiologist, and anesthesiologists need to be upset if they have to work at a donut shop.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, working at a donut shop is pretty great.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: So when I get out of my idea about who I think I am, something shifts.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: I do think, I do wonder in this slightly fictionalized story of the anathese anathesiologist slash donut slinger What happens when we can just go into like a thought experiment here, like what happens when they do go start thinking, oh, the donut shop is pretty great?
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then they start identifying as an ex-anesthesiologist that now works in a donut shop.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then and then are there places where that identity becomes limiting?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: I just find that kind of fascinating.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it's it's and now I feel like I'm on an epic journey in the life of the anesthesiologist donut shop worker.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um because then I guess I could also look at it in my own life of like all these different identities that I've taken on being a student, you know, being a college student, being a graduate student, then not being a student.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that was a huge sort of like thing to go from.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: I remember being like, I was still living with people that were in college and like they had an end of the semester.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Or I just had to go back to work on Monday.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um also no homework, like the adjustment to no homework I remember.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, what what do I do?
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: Do I sign myself reading or what do I do at night?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: I I I may or may not have um made myself um syllabi um after college to keep myself organized.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um but yeah, I guess I'm just thinking about the the the way we shed our identities and cling to them.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe I I guess I could also look at, and this would be a question for listeners, or a question for you, like when in times in your life when you are taking the hard things hard, how much of that?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: I don't I'm curious like how much of that is tied to that identity piece and how much of that is, I don't know, maybe something else.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe it's like performative in a certain way.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm I'm playing the role of the way that I mess up set that they got a speeding ticket or oh you know what I was thinking about was how um you know it used to be that if you were grieving, like if you were a widow, you you wore black for a year totally for the rest of your life.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: And there are right, and there are some traditions where that's what would be traditional, where that's cultures where that's what would be traditional, right?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think about kind of like the the Sicilian woman up, you know, wearing black and having a rosary around her belt, and it's just sort of like, okay, this is this is my life now.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna be consistently oriented around um you know this role.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess, you know, looking back, there was probably something important about identifying a widow in in the in the tribe or in the in the town, which is like this is a person who might need your help, right?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: So the Well, that's a nice way of thinking of it.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: I was not thinking You weren't?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: I was just sort of thinking that this is a vulnerable person now.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um who uh you know, so there's there is kind of part of it that is Oh, I'm thinking this is a person with liabilities.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I guess that's also true.
• 29:35
  unknown: I guess.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: If not try to procreate with this person, they probably already have kids that you'll then have to take care of.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's an excellent point.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um I like your interpretation a lot.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's probably all true.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I I don't know what the history is behind that.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to look it up at some point and um, you know, and find out.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I'm just speculating now.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm out there on the plank of my bullshit, I'm walking the plank.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just kind of thinking about it.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, and then it's it's sort of like, all right, well, then I I I do remember this specifically, you know, myself having lost a spouse.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it was like people uh mm the way I experienced that was that folks would project onto me what they thought I was experiencing without really asking me.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: And like um, how would that come across?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, I'm so sorry.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: And listen, I I I thank you.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: But also, like, um, how about ask me?
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: How are you doing today?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and and I also think there was a there there were times during that experience where I was calmer than people anticipated.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Probably because my life has been very informed by these thinkings, you know, by these teachings.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it was like, okay, well, this is a really hard thing, but I I'm gonna how can I take this hard thing easy?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm really just gonna be present for how it actually is.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: That I that's that's I pointed myself in that direction.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna be present for how it actually is.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of these things for me really do pair up really well with Zen Buddhism.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that's this just be with what's be with what's true.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Be be with what is.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Don't don't force, be natural, be with what is.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like, okay, well, you know, because we give ourselves these unnecessary layers of suffering by trying to be different than than what is.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it all makes sense to me.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: And also in Buddhism, you know, the Four Noble Truths, like the first one is everything is hard.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, life is impermanent and it's imperfect and it's impersonal.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so like having that as a philosophy, just kind of like knowing, okay, this is gonna happen, and then really being curious about well, what does this actually feel like?
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: What does this pain actually feel like?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: And what I found with grief is that um it's not just one note.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's a you know, it's uh it it's like a mix of things.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: And for for me, like have you ever heard um box to cottage in fugue and D minor?
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not by title.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just gonna hum a few bars and then you'll know it because um it's it was you know pretty famous.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: So it's the one that's like Oh, that's like the opening of Fantasia.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then this wicked bass comes in and then and then it's it, it's just this back and forth okay, between competing parts that are going in and out of D minor through the whole thing.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like even just talking about it, I'm starting to get the chills.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: And listener, if you haven't listened into it in a while, it's really worth listening to.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: For me, that that whole piece is what it's like to grieve because it's it's it's so beautiful and complex.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like yeah, I I couldn't have grieved her if I didn't love her.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, mixed up in all of the pain is gratitude, is so much gratitude and love.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then in grief too, there's also like anger and there's shame.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: What if I did more?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: And there's guilt and there's fear about the future.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: What's my life gonna be like without this person?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how's this gonna affect the kid?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, it's it's it's all of these notes.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I found a great deal of beauty in it because I was open to the experience, I think.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I really understand that that was incredibly disquieting for other people for other people.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because they had this secret belief about what it means to grieve.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: So this whole take the take the hard things easy, I think really is pointing to these secret beliefs.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm not saying deny what you're going through.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, also it's not saying the hard things aren't hard.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's not denying that hard things are hard.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean like things sometimes things are just really, really hard.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: But if there is a way, I mean what I get from it, okay, real life, real-time example.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like my experience with putting an edition on a house, it ain't easy.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of a hard thing.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and there have definitely been times that I have felt a little overwhelmed.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, even just from like the amount of decisions that need to be made, or worrying about the decisions that were made, or the limitations, or even just the way that things happen.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like so there have been some mistakes that have been corrected.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I don't know how easy they are to correct when they happen, or whatever.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: People are coming and going, the backyard is a freaking mess.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: That great plumber that came in and said, oh, the boo-boo.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: And just kind of made light of it.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: And this was the guy who had to do all of his work.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: Plumbers.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think they were the same people.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if they came from the same company, but yeah, the first plumbers come.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: You you were leaving early.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: I was still in bed.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: You're like, hey, hey, the plumbers are here, they're laying the pipes.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, okay, sweet.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I get up and I open the blinds and I look and I go, I don't think that's how plumber, but I don't think that's how that goes.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I go outside and I water the plants and I say hi and I'm like, Do I say something to them?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't want to be the person, are you doing your job right?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, so I don't.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then come to find out, the project manager sees it.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, is that right?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: And he's like, No, it is not right.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so two days later, the other plumber, these other dudes show up and they're doing shit with plumbing.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, Well, I'm gonna freaking say something.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I open up the door and I go, Hi, good morning.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I say, Hey, listen, I don't mean to be like whatever, but um, are you using the updated plants?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: And he goes, Oh, is this because of the boo-boo?
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I say, Yes, this is because of the boo-boo.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and yeah, he was, I mean, he was just sort of, you know, made a comment about how the plans need to be updated, blah, blah, blah.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: And it'll only take 40 minutes to ch to fix it.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so I feel like that was a good example of like nobody wants to redo you know, laying pipes, but he took the hard thing easy for sure.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: He wasn't even his mistake.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, uh it it is just kind of part of life, I think.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and as I'm stuck to other people, you know.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: Apparently, this is how these things go, yeah, is the the memo that I'm getting from many different people, um, which I did not know going into it.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: But I guess I share all that to say, yeah, I do feel like that there are ways that I'm trying to approach this project in taking it.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: We gotta go pick out our um fixtures and flooring and all of that stuff, which can be really overwhelming.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna do that this weekend.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm sort of like, ooh, do we want to like get a coffee on the way?
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what can we do to make it fun?
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: I did for me, it all revolves around coffee and snacks.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um last weekend I went over to my mom's to help her go through a bunch of stuff from my childhood home, and I was like, Can I bring snacks?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: Let's make it fun.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: And we totally did.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I I don't know what her experience was like.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I think she had a good time.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: I know that I had a good time.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: I might even go back this weekend and do it because it was a good time.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: So Yeah, I mean, it's like when I was younger, I used to do this thing where if I had to have a difficult conversation with somebody, I I don't know how to explain it other than to say it like this.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I would bring sort of like a courtroom energy in there.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: A courtroom energy kind of like, I remember what you did, and if I remember what you did.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what did you bring a briefcase?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, but I had this vibe, you know what I mean?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: I had it was like very like you know, like you like we're all on trial right now, you know what I mean?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: We're all on trial.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: Something was said and it hurt my feelings.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: And now you're on trial about that, you know.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I I really did bring that uh bring that energy into difficult conversations.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think I kind of I I think there's a part of me that still holds on to sort of like a belief that okay, a difficult conversation has to mean that my pulse rate goes up.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: It has to mean.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: It just doesn't.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like the more comfortable the more comfortable I've gotten with just kind of like, okay, wow, all right.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a bit sad right now.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: Let me just go ahead and be with that.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: Or I'm a bit scared right now.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like uh Brene Brown that says this brilliant stuff about being courageous, that when you're courageous, there's no courage without vulnerability.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, and I think that she talks about how the word courage, yeah, etymology goes back to heart.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: So there's always this moment like when I'm really vulnerable where there's this internal kind of quivering that happens.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so like learning that that's okay, that the quivering is okay.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I didn't I didn't get that training when I was growing up.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: I was really taught to protect vulnerability and not to show it.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: And um and that actually made hard things harder.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean one of the things that was r really important for me to learn that one of the ways that takes to take hard things easy is is to become a bit softer around them.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's like what's hard.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and sometimes in certain moments, I'm the hard thing.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm making myself hard.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, especially if you feel threatened or vulnerable, like hardening up is just to sort of extend the metaphor, is I think a natural response.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_02: But then yeah, how can how can I soften?
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, let's talk about this.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever found that people who have low back issues are carrying tension in their bellies?
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like tightening up.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like are they straight in the belly?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do you do anything?
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: Well, here's the thing.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how are the belly and the back connected?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna tell you structurally, yeah.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: If somebody comes to me for low back pain, um, and depending on what their goals are for the session and what their preferences are and what their tolerance is for, you know, more therapeutic style work.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the I in certain areas I always have like certain things where it's like, if all I had is five minutes, what would I do?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um the psoas.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: And where where is the psoas?
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: So the psoas muscle is a major hip flexor muscle.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: It is located on the front part of your lower vertebrae.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: So it's very, very deep inside.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: So you've got your spine, it's it's located right on the front, and then it goes across the pelvis and attaches in, let's just say, the groin area, and it's it helps you like bend your knee to your chest, um, for example.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so when the psoas is tight, it's pulling that lower vertebrae forward, creating some serious instability in the lower spine.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: If someone has lower back pain, releasing the psoas, and I know this because it's not like it's not, it's nobody's favorite, except for my clients that have chronic low back pain because they know that when I release the psoas, it really helps.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: They'll even tell their friends when they refer other clients, they're like, You gotta let her do the psoas.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: So have you, but have her work your abdomen.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's an abdominal, it's the belly.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so working the abdomen helps the lower back.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things human beings do when they're feeling threatened is they tighten their bellies.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: Totally makes it because it per per protects the internal organs.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: Those vital organs, yeah.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and I think that that's why getting the abdominal work, because we got to open open the abdominals where we get to the psoas, that is really hard for people because there's all these protective mechanisms because you got all those vital organs there, it's trying to protect.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and and when we go into fight or flight, our breathing becomes more shallow.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so that opens up there.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and we sit a lot, which contracts the hip flexor totally contributes to this problem.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like if you can imagine yourself, I mean, I I notice it for me if I'm sitting in a Zoom meeting and I start to become impatient or um irritated.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and and I often clock with myself feeling impatient and irritated in meetings.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that that's a for for me, it's just a common go-to.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's something I'll notice about myself, is um I I tend to want people to move along more quickly than they're moving along.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, and uh, and then I feel irritated.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh and that's about me.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's not great self-awareness.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to yeah, it's not about the person.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's really about me.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm usually thinking in my mind, shut the fuck up, hurry up, let's go.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very quiet.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh and I would never say it's anybody because I don't mean it.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, and you still participate and I still participate, and I think I'm pretty good at Not showing it, although occasionally I'll just be like, I have a hard stop in five minutes.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um so but you know, people come home and I'm like why she's in a bad mood.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh she had a bad mood.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: What I want to say is what I'm aware of, Nissa, is that how that contributes to the low back pain that I have.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so it it's it's like, okay, while I'm sitting, I'm often thinking, relax your belly, relax your belly, relax your belly.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: There's a saying that I learned from Joan Halifax.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: Joan Halifax is now a Roshi in a Zen lineage that is adjacent to mine.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: She was a medical anthropologist.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: She's a very, very cool human being, in my in my opinion.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: I really admire her a great deal.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um Joan Halifax has a saying, and she says, What we're trying to do in our practice is we keep a strong back and a soft front.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: A strong back and a soft front.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: Now that's an intentionality saying.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, how do you want to show up?
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if you want to show up with a strong back, it means you're you're up.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: You're not you're not shumped.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: Your back is strong.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: You your heart is your heart space is open.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: But your front is soft.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: You're not protecting yourself.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's different than standing at attention in band or in the military.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: Which I was just taught to make my whole body kind of hard.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, listeners, I am curious to know how you can take the hard things easy.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_02: And where in your life maybe could you have a little bit more space to not have that strong back, but keep a softer front.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: This has definitely given me some things to think about.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's a way too to get like inflated around suffering, like, you know, people who are sort of always suffering silently at the top of their lungs.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I like a bad I I have been in a I have been in a group class with Murray where he has looked directly at somebody and said, get off the cross, Mary.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: We need the wood.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: So that would be somebody that that really was really inflated by their sense of suffering.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: That like their sense of suffering becomes just part of the idea of the thing.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's sort of like a adjacent to being a martyr of martyr.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: So how can we so uh you know soften that?
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: What's the opposite of a martyr?
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's a good question.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh someone who's uh maybe congruently uh experiencing the vicissitudes of life.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um you just sounded so smart right there.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness, congruently experiencing the vicissitudes of life.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: Well okay.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: That was good.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good vocab words.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I do think that like I don't know, there's a part of me that does that admires people who are willing to completely sacrifice themselves consciously in the spirit of a cause.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean the whole idea that like the the Catholic Church makes saints out of martyrs might say something about why we think that inflation goes along with suffering.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we do we do put this image of someone being crucified in the middle of a church.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's suffering we could spend more about suffering, I'm sure.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot to say.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: But um I think we can I think uh this is a good this is a good crack at it.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I hope that um just to wrap up here that um those of you listening still listening, that you can uh take something a little easier today.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right?
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like don't meet your reality with a clenched fist.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: Unless, you know, unless somebody's using fighting which case, you know, take it outside.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: And um tell them you have a hard stop at noon.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: If you've um if you've enjoyed this, please make sure that you subscribe.
• 48:16
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• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: So whatever app you're um listening on, hit that subscribe button.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: Heck yeah.
• 48:24
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• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: If you have not given us a rating andor a review, um that would be most, most appreciated.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_02: We just might read your words on the air.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: And um you can also send us text messages like one that came in a couple weeks ago that just said, Hey, I just want to let you know I fucking love your podcast.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, my friend.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure you are listening.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: And um Yeah, thanks, Missa.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a great conversation with you today.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, it's been so fun.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: I would say easy.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: We ready?
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_02: Why are you laughing?
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you clap like that, sometimes you you do this thing where you go like it's just like hilarious.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: You all cannot see the visual, but what how would we describe it?
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's like it's like my fingers are pointed.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's just it's just absurd.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's absurd.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: So let's do an actual open.